/vr/ - Retro Games

>>4182630
>Hollywood Holocaust
>Duke Burger

Amazing levels

Honestly I like both. I don't think DN3D's original levels are subject to the same designer-related issues that you can pinpoint in similar games, like Doom and Doom 2 where the difference between Romero's levels and Petersen's levels are night and fucking day.

>>4182647
What's the problem with Petersen?

>>4182653
Generally bad level flow. Romero's maps have a tendency to lead players through a level and give a sense of scale by offering sneak peeks to upcoming parts of the level, or viewpoints to previously explored areas. This helps players navigate and contextualizes a lot of their actions in the world. Not necessarily hub-based, but it helps move things along.

Petersen levels feel very loose and undirected. Sometimes you're walking around a giant, detail-less open area with no obvious follow-up. The only context some levels have is the name of the level, without which you wouldn't even know what the fuck you're looking at (look at D2 for lots of examples of this). You're either blowing through sections of the levels that you never revisit again, or you're played a hub-based level but the levels rarely feel connected and instead feel like some abstract puzzles separated from the rest of the level.

Not to mention that Romero's enemy placement was much better gameplay-wise than Petersen's. Romero will often give a safe "peek" at a new enemy type before he introduces it to the player in the company of other enemy types. Petersen's levels overuse the same enemy types in arbitrary ways that make it feel like there is no purpose to the way they were sprinkled throughout the level.

I think the problems were that Sandy mostly finished Hall's levels which is never a good thing.

The same problems appeared in E4 of Duke when Levelords levels were finished by someone else.

That might be the reason E2 of Doom1 and E4 from Duke are pretty bad compared to the others.

>>4182678
That's very true.

>>4182653
Petersen's maps aren't that bad.
The most creative maps IMO were probably created by McGee and Willits.

The Wind Tunnels (Willits) is easily one of my favorite maps.

The Vaults of Zin (McGee), a classic. Along with the Chthon levels that were in the original demo.

I think the Lovecraft influence could probably be largely credited to Petersen.

If we had to judge by Alien World Order alone, Blum is definitely the best.

In the new ep Levelord's maps really aren't great. Look at a map like Red Ruckus, it's squarish, lazy design like "go to room to get keycard, use keycard only to open a square room with a couple of enemies and the next keycard in it" or "let's have an upper floor before not make it Sector over Sector to make it more realistic" (unlike Hotel Hell's greatness...), and there are sound issues and misaligned textures... Even the theme of the map itself is just "another city map with an underground facility", and the only thing that differentiates it from a usermap is the gameplay. Enemy placement, gameplay flow is excellent, I'll give him that.

In comparison, Blum's maps like Golden Carnage and Mirrage Barrage are not only truly classic, but original and conceptually grand at the same time.

So what happened ? Either Levelord forgot more than Blum did, or maybe it's the lack of other mappers doing the small fixes and changes... I think it might be the lack of director behind them, unlike for 1.3/1.4, it was "their" maps, and there was noone behind them telling them what to do, what to fix, what is good or isn't etc

Blum did the oil tanker level right? That one was stunning back in the day.

I want to know who the sadistic bastard was that designed the Smithsonian level in the DC expansion.

>>4182807
Lol why do people not like that map? Sure it takes 30 minutes to finish but it's cool.

>>4182630
I gotta go with Blum based solely on the fact that I can remember what a lot of those levels are. The only ones I remember out of Levelord's list are maps I didn't like that much.

Dark side
Derelict
Mirage barrage
Golden carnage

These are not just levels, but works of engineering art. That separates Blum from Levelord.

>>4182746
Willits' best maps are his deathmatch maps in Q1 and Q2 imo.

based on these descriptions it seems like blum was a fan of making proto half-life type maps where the map is designed to take the player through interesting locations and feel like an adventure, levelord seems to prefer more tradtional level that are based around different combat encounters

>>4182665

Petersen lacked so much skill and confidence as a level designer that he would put arrows in the landscape directing the player towards switches and shit. Awful.

>>4182630
completely off topic, i find it amazing that the picture OP posted is both the cover art for the game and the menu load screen for the game itself. This particular version of the image was created for the high resolution pack for the eDuke32 open source port. We had some problems when attempting to make high res version of the menu background as only original assets were allowed to be redistributed in the texture pack, no 3D Realms art assets were to be reused and redistributed in any capacity as that is copyright infringement. Someone on the forums scanned their game box for a high-res source, but unfortunately it was severely cropped at the sides compared to the original menu background, and someone else scanned a mousepad that has partially wider aspect ratio but was somewhat worse quality, so i with my limited photoshp skills at the time combined the both and further tweaked the colors to match the menu background more and had to hand draw parts of the image that were still missing (in this case the small brown rock formations at the bottom) and the result was this image (albeit less compressed than this version) But we couldn't obviously use it as it was copyrighted. So i just PM'd George Broussard (ceo) on the forums and straight up asked if we could redistribute the image as part of the high res pack, and he said it was fine. This was some 12-13 years ago and i just find it surreal to bump into this particular version of the image that i made some personal touches to this much later.

>>4183318
I'm pretty sure Friedrish uploaded the original version of the image, in hi-res, on the forum last year.

>>4183293
C'mon Romero! Perersen's maps weren't that bad!

>>4182965
I love these maps too, the last two saved World Tour from being a total failure.

Top5 leveldesigners:

1. Allen Blum
2. Tom Hall
3. John Romero
4. Levelord
5. American McGee


145670: Randy Pitchford

>>4182642
Duke Burger sucks.

>>4182965
>works of engineering art
>doesn't include Lunatic Fringe in his "list"
>a level that is literally impossible irl
lol shut up faggot

>>4182793
I liked Red Ruckus a lot. Gameplay wise it was fucking awesome. It was a bit of a pain to navigate the first time and find the right path but that happens to me in every Duke map I don't know very well.

Sure thematically I guess it's boring, but gameplay wise it was really fucking good m8.

>>4182965
>Derelict
I fucking hate this map. Every single time I come back to it it's just a total pain in the ass to navigate. I don't mean in terms of gameplay difficulty, I mean I don't know where the fuck to go. It's not fun getting lost, map is huge and needlessly elaborate for no reason. Fuck that map. Matter of fact fuck The Birth episode in general. It sucks.

>>4183853
>no timmy wimmy the creator of dm6 and q2dm1

>>4183853
How the fuck is Tom Hall above Romero when it comes to level design? Romero's levels are legendary.

>>4183926
Alright settle down. First of all there's no need for that kind of language little man. Second of all, the non-euclidean capabilities of the engine are what needs to be credited if you want to go there, which can be attributed to Ken Silverman's amazing engine.

>>4183938
You're a pussy and even admitted it.

>>4183926
Fringe is just showing engine capabilities. It had been remade in High Times and that map also included some nice Amsterdam scenery as well.

Engineering art is something that shows your skills, not the engine's skill. Said maps along with some others like Fusion Station showed high skills of craftsmanship.

Levelord had his fair share of the good, Flood Zone is a masterpiece for example, but Blum was better since his skills to create maps in bigger scale and more original layout.

>>4184043
Flood Zone is so fucking good.

>>4182630
Playing through the Alien World Order campaign right now and I just finished "Bloody Hell".

Fuck that level was awful. Who was responsible for that piece of shit?

>>4184696
t. doom babby

take your awful redundant "taste" back to the babby general where it belongs. we really don't need you shitting up the rest of the board with your plebeian clueless tripe.

>>4184718
Blow it out your ass

Bloody Hell was the worst map in the episode if we ignore the atrocious boss level. The difference that Hollywood Inferno didn't want to be a good map, just a boss ending, while BH was a regular level, which should have tried harder.

Honestly, the episode had only 2 truly amazing levels, the said Golden Carnage and Mirage Barrage. Tour de Nukem is somewhat fine if you ignore the fact it didn't add any specific theme to the map, just a good city map with a cool underground part.

Still better episode than Birth, which had the great Derelict and 10 maps of jack shit.

>>4184864
>so much AIDS in one single post
back to the babby general kid

>>4184867
>>4184718
>This one, obvious samefag, defending his favorite shitty level by calling people "babby" and "pleb"

Neck yourself, you autistic faggot. Why are you so defensive about a level that you didn't even make?

>>4184907
lol it's not my favourite level doom babby
>>4182198
shoo

Did I miss anything? Which level are you guys talking about? A Doom one?

Some people takes this way too seriously.

>>4185261
"Bloody Hell." It's a level in Alien World Order, the new campaign from the 20th Anniversary Edition on Steam.

No idea why that one guy got all defensive about it.

>>4185298
I really like the idea of having a city fort or museum or church like map, but that was a pretty dull one.

1. No ambient sounds.
2. One keycard is meaningless.
3. Dull decorative doors everywhere.
4. No sector shading
5. Monster placement is random
6. Starting area is ugly
7. No proper connection between parts, one way teleporter BS.

The only good thing is the design of the London Tower.

>>4185342
There is some sector shading but it's minimal.

Don't forget about the GOD AWFUL Cycloid bossfight at the end of the map.

I actually think that for the most part, the enemy placement in the big outdoor area is very good. People don't realize how HARD it is to make Duke's enemy work in big outdoor environments, they're really not intended for that, but here it works.

>>4185357
>People don't realize how HARD it is to make Duke's enemy work in big outdoor environments, they're really not intended for that, but here it works.
that's one of the reasons I liked the map. It feels almost Doom-style with its enemy placement and large outdoor area, something that you really don't find often in Duke.

I like the map because of its GAMEPLAY, which is fucking great. If gameplay is good, "aesthetics" don't bother me unless they're really horrendous, and even still it's not a bad looking map by any means. /vr/ being what it is though, I know these faggots are menstruating because they can't handle the hitscanners as usual and are unable to ever change weapon away from the shotgun. maybe one weapon change tops in an encounter but any more than that and these faggots' heads explode.

world tour episode is pretty much great from start to finish, especially in terms of gameplay. only disappointing thing about it was the final boss fight (but even the rest of the level leading up to the boss fight was pretty sweet). doom babbies are just fucking faggots that can't recognise good gameplay when they see it because they can't actually play the game at a non-retard level.

>>4185370
*and there's nothing wrong with that boss fight at the end either, icing on the cake, whats your problem with it?

>>4185379
It's terrible. There is no place to maneuver. All the details in the room hinder movement. The boss itself can't move either, and you can easily make him shoot the small wall in front of him.

Overall I agree that gameplay is great in AWO. It's the only thing that's consistent almost throughout and which really sets apart most of the maps to 'common usermaps' level (not counting Mirrage Barrage and Golden Carnage which shine way above that).

That particular bossfight was a mistake though. The idea was cool on paper I guess but the execution is awful. Also the episode has a tendency to put (mini)bosses everywhere, like every map needs to end with a boss, which is a common usermap mistake as well.

>>4185391
nigga you can easily jump out of the stairs and strafe around the flat edges surrounding. there are even pillars there to hide you from the missiles, come on.

>>4185396
One rocket and you're dead, unless you have 200hp. The Cycloid starts shooting as soon as you pop your head out of the water, and you're down in the middle of the room with plenty of small details and structures hindering your movement if you wanna make it to that high place, most people would just get killed in an unfair way trying, because they'd get stuck in one of the thousands of small walls the room is made of.
And that's granted you even wanna move out there, because the design doesn't exactly incites the player to do so. Instead, the first reflex will be to exploit either the water, or the small wall in front of the boss, which are cheap exploits.

it's terrible

>>4182665
>>4183293
>people hating on based Petersen
Romero's maps are better and certainly prettier, but Petersen deserves credit for what he accomplished at the pace he did. His maps show a lot of creativity especially when played from a pistol start. Romero made good-looking polished action maps, whereas Petersen used his dungeon master experience and made devious little setups of traps and surprises. He's a lot more experimental than Romero was.

I think the main issue people have with Petersen maps these days is that the community has produced so much amazing content it's hard not to look at Petersen maps as primitive and weird, which they frankly are.

>>4185370
You are the one who was bitching about The Birth?

has episode 5 finally been adapted for eduke32?

is there a dl link?

How's AWO's soundtrack

>>4185786
Does Eduke support the original expansion packs (Life's a Beach, etc.)?

I don't think I've ever played those. If Eduke supports them, where can I get them?

>>4182630
How can I pick one or the other? Blum made Red Light District, Dark Side and indeed most of Episode 2, and The Derelict. Levelord made The Abyss and almost all of Episode 3.
Duke 3D level design is just incredible overall. I love how it effortlessly moves from comedic action (most of the city stuff) to genuinely spooky (The Abyss, the space levels, and The Derelict)

Hey NESFag, what's better in your opinion: Golden or Mirage?

I give Golden the edge as Mirage looks duller in software mode.

>>4184913
Holy shit this guy is autistic
Imagine what his desk chair smells like

>>4183926
I love this meme! 'le bitter friendless 4channer with untreated mental illness', right?

>>4185918
Golden doesn't really have that much more sector shading either honestly. The size and the effects kinda go against it.

Mirrage is better, it's truly classic and more intuitive. Here is a little review of both maps I wrote after the game came out :

https://pastebin.com/WnufHVJ0

>>4185657
no I wasn't, but the birth is indeed mostly shit, and that does indeed include Derelict. i don't remember any maps I liked apart from the first one. it's forgettable and a total pile of wank, AWO is much better. and yes your taste is ass.

>>4185953
leather bound books and rich mahogany. stay butthurt doom bab.

>>4185420
i just played through the map. he didn't actually shoot at me at all until after I had left the bottom area. I don't know if he was glitched, but the same thing happens in this guy's playthrough: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3h62WF-B1U

>>4185996
Hard to rank these maps, Mirage is more intuitive and adventurous, Golden looks more impressive technically.

You look like a knowledged man, what are your other favourites of the 4 episodes and user levels?

Are there any mapper that can reach Blum or Levelord standards?

>>4185996
>https://pastebin.com/WnufHVJ0
Whoa. Major props for all that writing. It was a good read.

>>4186075
Everyone is entitled to his opinion, and you know what? The Birth is more famous than AWO, no matter how much shit you try to throw at others.

>>4186086
Hmm weird, I don't remember it like that at all... But maybe I didn't realize that, and shot at him which 'triggered him'. But I still don't think it's a good bossfight.

>>4186098
I have a very hard time ranking the original episodes maps. I like everything for different reasons. I love Flood Zone but I feel like its enemy placement could be better.

>Are there any mapper that can reach Blum or Levelord standards?

Not really. The thing with DN3D usermaps, is that for the vast majority of them, they have different goals and different design mentalities as classic maps, so it's very hard to make a direct comparison. Would DN3D usermappers actually try to make classic maps, some of them might do a good job, but some of them might end up building caricatures of classic maps which is what I sort of did a few years ago.

There is one mapper, and one map in particular, which for me is a masterpiece and which feels truly classic. I don't think many people agree but here it is, it feels like it could belong in Duke It Out In DC:

https://youtu.be/yGMezsfr4VQ

There a few other classic style maps I recorded on that YT channel

>>4186479
I just re-read the whole thing and I cringed at the grammar and spelling mistakes. Also some things I complained about, like the inabilitiy to turn off auto-aiming, was fixed in an update after I wrote that review. In any case, here is the whole thing, with a review per map of AWO:

https://forums.duke4.net/topic/8973-world-tour-reviews/page__p__263468#entry263468

>>4186075
I don't think you realize how influencial The Birth was though, how much it shaped DN3D, Duke in general, and the general view people have of "Build games".
In the original DN3D, there is barely any comedy aspect except from a couple of easter eggs, jokes and witty lines thrown here and there.
While in The Birth, they really embraced that and went full-on parody.

Also The Birth is a hallmark of ultra-thematic maps, again it was already the case in previous eps but here they pushed that aspect to its extreme.

The Birth took what people liked and talked the most about DN3D and pushed it to its extreme, exploited that to the max, and it shaped not only how people see the game, how mappers saw "DN3D maps" as well, but also how people see the entire Duke franchise and how they see "Build games" in general.

When people think of Build games, they think wiity lines, humour, and ultra thematic maps. Fun fact is, only half of Build games (or less) are truely like that, although sure it's the most popular half.

Death Row and the first episode needs better recognition lads. Those were the levels lads!

>>4187013
>https://forums.duke4.net/topic/8973-world-tour-reviews/page__p__263468#entry263468
Nice, man. I didn't realize the Duke 3d community was this active. I'm gonna have a good time reading over those forums.

>>4187015
Interesting. Personally, when I think of Build games I mainly think of the first 3 Duke episodes and the entirety of Blood, which I hold is almost equal to Duke as a game.

>>4187348
Cont. And Blood has a lot of gags and parodic elements, but I would still call it fundamentally a horror shooter with dark comedic elements, not an out-and-out comedy.

>>4182746
>The most creative maps IMO were probably created by McGee and Willits.

Funny, because IMO, they made the most boring and samey maps.

>>4186859
>Everyone is entitled to his opinion, and you know what? Call of Duty is more famous than The Birth, no matter how much shit you try to throw at others.

>>4187232
Death Row was the start of the long and strenous "dark period" of the game which lasted until the beating of Overlord at the end of E2. Then comedy and fun returns until Critical Mass and Derelict in E4 with their darker atmosphere again.

E5 was never dark, the closest level to this was Golden Carnage, but even that was somewhat lighthearted compared to the brutal stretch beteeen Death Row and Overlord.

>>4187503
All in all, might be an unpopular opinion, but I think Death Row was a great level, the first of the real epic ones in the game.

>>4187015
>In the original DN3D, there is barely any comedy aspect except from a couple of easter eggs, jokes and witty lines thrown here and there.
>While in The Birth, they really embraced that and went full-on parody.
That's actually another reason I don't like the episode. I mean the main reason I don't like it is because I don't find most of the maps fun to play. Apart from the first level I barely remember a thing about any of the others. The gameplay is just vastly inferior to anything that's on offer in the other episodes.

One of the 'arguments' people try to give against Duke 3D is that it's a 'gimmicky' game and people enjoy it only because the interactivity, Duke's one liners, etc instead of the gameplay itself. I've always responded that that's total bullshit and that the game stands on its own core fundamentals (gameplay and level design) more than anything else. Sure I like Duke's quips and the fact that I can tip strippers to show tits -- those are bonuses -- but it's the gameplay and level design itself that keeps bringing me back to it.

Like you said, The Birth takes all that gimmicky shit and puts it right to the forefront. That would be okay if the rest of the expansion was actually good but it mostly isn't. The levels just suck for the most part and I don't enjoy playing through them. Even thematically they're annoying. I don't enjoy Duke Burger or Babe Land even on just a thematic level for example; they're fucking cringey and annoying, especially Babe Land. The parody gets taken a bit too far for my taste. Again, this would have been alright if the map design/gameplay for these maps was decent, but really they're mostly just very shitty to play through.

If I could The Birth one positive it's that it comes with the best and most original boss fight in the entire series. That was really neat and something new. Apart from that though, this episode is definitely the weakest one hands down imo.

>>4187336
>https://forums.duke4.net/topic/8973-world-tour-reviews/page__p__263468#entry263468


they are nice fellas, some of them lurks on /doom/ and we all share the same hate against Dickford

>>4187824
It still surprises me that Randy Pitchford of Gearbox is the same guy that made E4L1, E4L10, and E4L11 of The Birth

>>4188130
E4L1 is actually based on an unfinished/scrapped map of the original. Probably Levelord's originally but I could be wrong

>>4188143
It doesn't look like a levelord map, and it's very similar to Area 51 and The Queen. All 3 are horrid levels with ecclectic texturing and oversized doors. Randy's touch is even seen in Pigsty and Bloody Hell as well. He is as hack designer as hack franchise owner.

>>4188143
The dukelvls textfile on the original disc explicitly credits it to Randy Pitchford, though

>>4188298
>Randy's touch is even seen in Pigsty
Is it? Nothing about that map reminds me of Randy's levels.

>>4188309
meant for >>4188212

>>4188313
The big effin door to the courtroom is Randy. I also think the entire courtroom is Randy as well.

The rest is mostly Levelord, although there are other big doors in the map you never saw in Levelord maps.

>>4188330
I'm fairly certain there was a big door in Bankroll, which was an LL map.

>>4182653
His maps tended to be more experimental and weird, alongside lacking in the aesthetic department, so its not surprising there are people who are put off by his maps. I personally love the varied and somewhat puzzle/trap based gameplay of Petersen's maps over Romero's often straight forward setups, and McGee's incredibly yawn inducing repetitiveness.

>>4183921

The only thing I don't like about Duke Burger is how you have to get the first key by using the drive through menu There's no indiction you have to do this, nor is there any sign that the menu is usable in the first place. It feel like that key's location was a last minute addon that turned a simple easter egg into a required part of the map.

Otherwise, it's a solid and tough level that's one of my favs in Episode 4.

>>4182630
IMO, Allen Blum was the better mapper. His layouts felt a lot more focused and purposeful. They really feel like they could be places to me.

Where as Levelord's maps, while good, weren't quite as cohesively structured. Like, a lot of people like to claim E3 is good for being semi-realistic places, but most of its layouts which are Levelord's, are random nonsense to me.

Since we're on the topic of Duke level design... can we all agree that the shrinker is overpowered and should either not be provided, or ammo provided very sparingly?

>>4188837
I have a feeling that's why it's used so sparingly in Alien World Order. I think the devs realized how strong it is.

If it couldn't be used to basically one-shot mini-bosses it wouldn't be that bad. But then again, that's kind of its only real use, so it would be useless if it couldn't do that

>>4188936
it's really good for those flying fat faggots too

>>4188837
No. Shrinker is useless against mechanical enemies and protector drones, risky against minibosses as it's not always working, also shrinker is not the way against small enemies like liztroops as others take care of them quicker.

It's the anti Commander weapon, works very well against isolated Commanders like in Derelict, also pretty good against Octabrains, although they are more vulnerable to the devastator or RPG.

Tldr, shrinker is not overpowered at all. If one weapon is overpowered, it's the incinerator, which depleats ammo way too slowly and enemies can't attack you during burning.

>>4188298
>>4188212
The Birth was made quickly, so it was based on scrapped ideas and materials from the original game. For instance, the expander was a scrapped idea that dates back from 1994.

Except that Levelord left 3DRealms in between the 1.3D release and The Birth.
So, they used things from Levelord but didn't credit him because 1) the fucker was gone and 2) anything you make for the company belongs to the company, not to you. There was no reason to credit him anymore. Notice how his face doesn't appear anymore in the new ending credits in v.1.4/1.5

For another map, Pigtsy I think, even Pitchford admitted the map being Levelord's.

For It's Impossible, the same people who've had access to beta materials and who found the expander in 1994 versions, found an early version of it from before the1.3D release. I don't actually have proof myself though, it's just what I heard. I don't know either how much of the map was made at that point.

So, the name of the original level designer not appearing, and Levelord being the only level designer leaving in between both versions AFAIK, it's just an easy guess to say it originally was Levelord.

>>4189305
>found an early version of it from before the1.3D release.

Meaning that map was started long before Pitchford even joined 3DRealms

>>4186075
>and that does indeed include Derelict
But thats one of the best maps in the entire game. Felt almost like an E1 map to me.

>>4189464
Indeed, how someone dislike that materpiece?

>>4182630
Based on that, Allen Blum.

>>4183938
The Birth is almost as good as Shrapnel City and is a solid second place in the original 4 episodes. I too hate Derelict (love the concept, but the execution leaves much to be desired), along with Critical Mass, but otherwise the rest of the episode was 10/10.

>>4183938
>Getting lost in Derelict

Its not that hard to navigate

>>4189497
>but the execution leaves much to be desired

Execution was perfectly fine, actually. If any map left much to be desired, it'd be Area 51.

>>4189169
i don't know if it different between versions but if u shoot the shrinker at the feet of the battlelord it will almost always work, it's only unreliable if shot straight ahead

>>4189667
You need to have autoaim turned off for that to work. The hit detection of the shrinker actually checks the feet.

>>4184036
>>4189497
>>4189505
I was confusing Derelict with The Queen map for some reason. Derelict is the big submarine or whatever, okay that one isn't hard to navigate. The Queen map is fucking ridiculous though and is super annoying with its switch hunt BS.

>>4189489
It seems he won in this thread. Levelord was talented and his contributions were invaluable, but he is more famous by his name and being a cooler guy IRL.

>>4189506
Well, it's still a lot more detailed than Launch Facility, which is just empty rooms galore.

>>4190040
Launch Facility felt a lot more well designed to me.

>>4190152
As a fan of Blum, it's hard to say but IMHO Launch Facility is a dud. It sure looks more in-house than Area 51, but it's just some empty rooms map unlike others in LA Meltdown.

>>4190275
Its not Allen's strongest map, I'll agree with you on that. But I prefer its gameplay over Area 51 anyday.

>>4190363
Both are secret maps for a reason, though I could have said a few worse than Area 51 from The Birth. The launch sequence is a lot cooler there.

I wonder how Romero, Petersen or Hall would have done as Duke mappers. They never had a chance to use the Build engine and make city or other realistic levels.

Levelord clearly failed with Doom, although his Quake maps, particularly that famous DM map were good enough.

>>4185849
Bumping for an answer to this

>>4191438
>>4185849
The most simple way to play the add-ons in EDuke32 is to pirate the Megaton edition.

Megaton changed how the add-ons worked, and everything you'll need for each is in the .grp files. So get the 3 add-ons .grp files, and EDuke32 will read them as is, and you can select them in the startup window.

If you want to install with the original versions, the "before Megaton" one, you'd have go through the DOS installers of the add-on, and make your own bach files to tell EDuke32 to run the .grp AND the con files.

The boss level of Caribbean looks like something from Lunar Apocalypse, even with its music is more dukish. Too bad those water pistols and other useless modifications hurt the gameplay a lot.

>>4191625
>Too bad those water pistols and other useless modifications hurt the gameplay a lot.
What? The weapon alterations were amazing. Killing alien bastards with a Super Soaker and an ice machine was the best.

>>4191842
For a joke, yes, for a commercial game, no.

>>4192251
It's kind of sad that you can't enjoy the lighthearted aspect of Duke Caribbean.

>>4192259
Lighthearted or not, it should have stayed professional. Those water sounds are awful, especially if you consider pigs use normal shotguns.

The leveldesign is great though, matches the original for most times.

>>4193215
>it should have stayed professional

>>4182630
You always put your best maps first. That should tell you right there given that Allen has more maps in the first two episodes and levellord has his at the end.

>>4193215
>Lighthearted or not, it should have stayed professional

Definitely. If there's one thing I can say about Duke3D, it's that it's a "serious" and "PROFESSIONAL" game

>>4193725
Not him but Duke does actually get much darker than most people seem to think. The entire episode 2 for example isn't something I'd call 'lighthearted' at all. And I've realised episode 2 is actually my favourite one as well. It's great.

In a way, I kind of see Duke Nukem 3D similar to the movie Die Hard's sense of 'seriousness'. Funny things happen and John McClane says funny one liners etc but he's still in a genuinely dire situation. I haven't played Caribbean so I don't know what its gameplay/level design is like but I kind of agree with the guy's criticism of it. Having a supersoaker as a weapon is just lame imo.

>>4193459
Actually, some of the best maps are towards the end of the episodes (The Abyss, Dark Side, Hotel Hell, Derelict, Golden Carnage) to end them on a high note. Starting maps are usually short, easy and fun levels. High Times is an ideal starting map for example, with some great Amsterdam scenery and having fun with getting high. It's nowhere near the best of the episode though.

>>4188478
...I could never get past this level, is that really all I had to do?

We'd be playing it on split screen and have no idea where the fuck to go, exploring what we thought was everything.

>>4193989
lol, it's fucking duke. you never tried interacting with the drive through mic? come on.

>>4193829

The enemies still bleed when killed with water guns so it's kinda weird. I've played about six levels of Caribbean and it's actually really well designed. There were some confusing levels, but they were made with much higher attention to detail than the original levels.

>>4194275
>>4193215
>>4191625
Have any of you ever read the booklet? The guns shoot poisoned water.

Yeah, it's still a bit silly, but that's the point.

>>4194275
Definately not more detailed than the originals, just different aesthetics. The boss level is something that could fit into E2 well.

>>4194305
>Yeah, it's still a bit silly, but that's the point.
And I don't like the point.

>>4194425
Well you're the odd one out. Sorry that you feel that way because Caribbean is one of the best expansions to any game ever made.

>>4193829
Agreed. The whole stretch from The Abyss to the end of Episode 2 is genuinely spooky. One of the best things about Duke3D is precisely that it can shift from action comedy to spooky scifi stuff and back.
Blood, too, did a good job of being funny but still a serious horror game.

>>4194437
Most people hated those modifications. And it's not even close to being the best ever for Duke, let alone any game. DNF2013 is much better for example.

Some of you anon guys are really funny people.

>>4194512
>>4193829
Yeah, that's true, but that's been done already. Caribbean Life offers something completely different and new.

>>4194515
That's ridiculous. DNF2013 is a great mod sure, but it's not an add-on. Besides the level design mentality is completely different, DNF2013 may be open, but it's very linear and streamined for the most part, concentrating more on "cool set pieces" than anything.

The levels in Life's a Beach's on the other hand are truly pro-level classic style Build maps. Duke It Out in DC is really good, but not as good. Nuclear Winter is garbage. Alien World Order is good too but only a couple of maps really stand out.

So yes, Caribbean Life is the best add-on.

>>4194515
>Most people hated those modifications
Literally fucking who? In 27 years I have never once until this thread heard someone complain about the weapons. And stop talking about a fan mod, you know I'm talking about official shit here.

>>4194542
oh I've heard a couple of people complain about the weapons but not many..

And also this enemy, which people wrongly call the "Commander replacement" even though the episode does have Commanders as well and that's a brand new enemy.

>>4194553
I'm not really a fan of them outside of the silly factor, but they don't ruin it for me. Seagulls were retarded, though. Thankfully they were rare. The only real crime Caribbean commits is taking out the Enforcers.

>>4194561
That's funny. It never even hit me.

They're not in ep1 either anyway.

>>4194568
>They're not in ep1 either anyway
True but I just see that as enemy progression. Also they're the pigcop replacements for the space levels. The game is at its best, in my opinion, when both pigcops and enforcers are present.

>>4194572
Blum tended to not mix them too often in his levels. One major enemy is usually absent from his level, and that actually improves the gameplay of the maps.

Something about the Duke city aesthetic really sticks with me. Like imagine that palm tree sprite against the golden yellow sunset parallax sky, feels like a place I've been to only in my dreams, it evokes a sense of familiarity that is comforting and unsettling at the same time. Guess that's why space levels never really did it for me, lacking that urban aesthetic.

>>4194782
>feels like a place I've been to only in my dreams, it evokes a sense of familiarity that is comforting and unsettling at the same time
Same here. Beloved levels stick in the mind like places one's visited in dream, or real places where one used to live.
The space levels are mostly not memorable in that way, compared to the city levels. I can remember the key details of almost any city level map from Episodes 1-2, but most of the space levels are just sort of a jumble - exceptions including, of course, Dark Side.
However, I find that when I actually play them or watch other people play them on YouTube, etc. I get really sucked in to the experience. The sense of openness and connectedness provided by the frequent views outside into space through the windows, and the way one can often see other parts of the level through the windows, and the huge disk of the Earth away beyond, are an amazing touch given the tech level of the engine. A true testament to great level design.
The Alien-inspired aesthetic and waves of robot drones provide a grim and lonely sense of danger, and one feels far from the familiar haunts of Earth. In LA, one walks through a landscape devoid of other humans (except for the women in cocoons) but at least one is surrounded by familiar and comforting environments like convenience stores and banks. In the space levels there is a great atmosphere of desolation and distance from Earth.
And the big open area at the end of Dark Side, plus the spooky monolith cave, are one of the greatest sequences of any 3D shooter of that time period.

>>4194782
>feels like a place I've been to only in my dreams, it evokes a sense of familiarity that is comforting and unsettling at the same time
Same here. Beloved levels stick in the mind like places one's visited in dream, or real places where one used to live.
The space levels are mostly not memorable in that way, compared to the city levels. I can remember the key details of almost any city level map from Episodes 1 or 3, but most of the space levels are just sort of a jumble - exceptions including, of course, Dark Side.
However, I find that when I actually play them or watch other people play them on YouTube, etc. I get really sucked in to the experience. The sense of openness and connectedness provided by the frequent views outside into space through the windows, and the way one can often see other parts of the level through the windows, and the huge disk of the Earth away beyond, are an amazing touch given the tech level of the engine. A true testament to great level design.
The Alien-inspired aesthetic and waves of robot drones provide a grim and lonely sense of danger, and one feels far from familiar haunts. In LA, one walks through a landscape devoid of other humans (except for the women in cocoons) but at least one is surrounded by familiar and comforting environments like convenience stores and banks. In the space levels there is a great atmosphere of desolation and distance from Earth.
And the big open area at the end of Dark Side, plus the spooky monolith cave, are one of the greatest sequences of any 3D shooter of that time period.

I've always wished Duke 3D had a full length Earth Industrial/Base themed episode. E1 and E4 have bits and pieces, but they also feature city levels, and E1 isn't full length anyhow.

>>4194542
>27 years

....Duke 3D isn't that old

>>4194782
>>4194935
you're both experiencing hiraeth. The longing for a home you can no longer return to, or a home that never was.

congrats you know now what motivates the alt-right

>>4194991
Duke should've taken Lo Wang's industrial / base levels. Fuck those, they were horrible, Duke could've made them good. SW should've stuck with the temple/town/village/wilderness levels.

>>4194437
I haven't actually played it. I'm not bashing it on level design/gameplay, I don't know how it plays. Maybe the other aspects are good but the goofiness is too retarded for my taste. I don't care if I'm the 'odd one out', that's some pretty weak ad populum right there m8.

Out of the space levels, Warp Factor and Occupied Territory are the most infamous. The former for having an overwhelming number of drones, the other for having more than enough minibosses. I love both levels, they offer great leveldesign and unique gameplay though.

The one who made Death Row, Lunar Reactor, Dark Side and Derelict. These levels are stacked.

I don't care about generic city stuff. They were great back then, but became old quicker than a Roadrunner cartoon.

>>4194935
>>4195608
I'm always amazed when people call Lunar Apocalypse "generic". It's nothing but that. Sure the theme itself wasn't new, but the execution was nothing like I'd have seen before.

I also believe ep2 has better gameplay than 3. ep3 tends to be all over the place in terms of enemy placement, it's a lot less tight.

>>4195918
WTF "all over the place" enemy placement means? The enemy placement in the likes of LA Rumble is spot on. Pigcops in the left parts of building, Enforcers in the right part, occasional spawn of Commanders in the air, sometimes with drone support, lots of jetpack use. Perfection.

>>4195020
>dat hint of areola

It makes no sense to have that visible in a silhouette but I'm not complaining

>>4195952
LA Rumble is good, but a lot of maps in the episodes feel to me that not as much as thought was put into enemy placement as with other maps.

>>4195918
Yeah I agree. I rank the episodes like this.

2 > 1 > 5 > 3 > 4

1 used to be my favourite but after a recent playthrough I've realised 2 is by far my favourite episode. It's easily got the best variety of gameplay. 1 has a really nice flow to it from start to finish but 2 is so much richer with the added weaponry, enemies and verticality. 2 is easily the highlight of the game for me, and goddamn its aesthetic and atmosphere are so fucking good.

>>4182630
From what I remember of the good old Duke days, the only maps that were played competitively around these parts were Hollywood Holocaust and Hotel Hell. Nobody gave a crap about other stuff. Maybe LA Rumble from time to time.

>>4196010
Yeah, the good thing about ep2 is that since it's not rooted in realism, the levels are wild. There are some amazing and crazy architectures, layouts, with tons of cool sector effector use as well.

Episode 2 is boring as hell, completely lacking in level design. Once you've seen the first level you've seen them all, generic space base mazes from start to finish.

>>4182630
Hard for me to choose. I loved both Dark Side by Blum and The Abyss by Levelord.

>>4185868
This. I especially enjoy the spooky parts of Duke. Much of episode 2 is pretty great for that, with the feelings of isolation and shit.

>>4196060
>I'm a faggot and proud of it
Then stop posting on the internet, fag.

>>4196015
From multiplayer perspective, yes. In terms of leveldesign and single player gameplay, Hotel Hell is nothing special, overrated as hell.

>>4196060
Episode 3 is boring as hell, completely lacking in level design. Once you've seen the first level you've seen them all, generic urban city mazes from start to finish.

>>4196010
My ranking is similar, though I'd put it as: 2 > 1 = 4's AB maps > 3 > 4

I haven't played 5 yet, as I don't own World Tour.

>>4196129
>I haven't played 5 yet, as I don't own World Tour.
get on that nigga, it's super fun. ignore the tasteless fags itt, they're complete plebs. go by our similar ranking, you know I'm telling you the truth

>>4196126
3's not bad and has flood zone, which is probably the best map in the game, but in general yeah 2 is miles better. 3 does have some really shitty maps too whereas 2 has no bad maps.

>>4196138
agree, for one Shrapnel City has Fahrenheit which is one of the worst levels in the game

Mirage Barrage/Golden Carnage/Dark Side/Derelict > episode 1 > rest of episode 2 > episode 3 > rest of episode 5 >>>>> rest of episode 4

>>4196010
3 = Caribbean > 4 > 2 = 5 > 1

>>4196294
I never got the love for Derelict. I love the concept but honestly I find it incredibly tedious and unfun.

>>4196484
As for ship levels, I preferred The Wavemistress in Caribbean.

>>4196484
>>4196484
It's a polarizing map like the space levels in E2. Some love, others hate it, I'm in the love camp. IMHO it's an intentionally moody level which prepares you to an intense bossfight with the Queen. I think they made a mistake not to end this with a bossfight and you have to suffer through The Queen's (as level) annoying mazes first which made Derelict's strenous mission a bit redundant. The boss battle should have been taken under the ocean, when you reenter it.

I also think they should have used Dark Side as a bosslevel. Overlord at least is not that long, just pointless.

>>4196621
The last map of The Birth was primarly designed for Team Deathmatch, that's why it's symmetrical.

At least I think it's Team Deathmatch. I never even tried it. It was kind of a selling point on the devs part for The Birth but it flopped. Kinda like how everyone always forgets that Shadow Warrior was the first official FPS with CTF afaik, I mean, Quake had it before, but as a free fan mod, not as an official game type created by the devs.

>>4196685
That's why Derelict should have been a boss level, and The Queen should have been an extra one in a special episode designed for special stuff. Lunatic Fringe and Tier Drops are also pointless as episodic levels.

>>4196480
aids: the taste

>>4197359
Is this /v/?

>>4197359
Yea. Ranking LA meltdown last is like saying Vivaldi's Four Seasons is worse than Justin Bieber's Baby. That episode was THE Duke episode. You shouldn't even buy the game if you hate the shareware episode.

>>4198000
It's not a matter of hating it, just that other episodes offered just as good levels, better in some cases, and more of them.

>>4182630
i think we all know

Duke3D is one of the greatest games ever made. That said, I think it suffers a bit from insufficient enemy variety. The weapon variety is great, but the game could really use 4 or 5 more well-designed enemy types. It gets old seeing the same PigCops, Enforcers, and Commanders.

Allen Blum, no contest. San Francisco level was amazing.

>>4196484
You have no taste pleb. Go fuck a dog, that's not tedious.

>>4198057
No. Episode 1 rocks. Others had fillers, episode 1 is great from start to finish. Also it's the only one with a proper storyline.

>>4198352
Episode 1 is great, but I never liked Toxic Dump.

>>4198352
>episode 1 is great from start to finish. Also it's the only one with a proper storyline.

That's an interesting point. Why did they seem to just give up on having a proper story after episode 1? By the time you get to ep. 4, it really is literally just a random assortment of levels and then a boss.

Allen Blum is the better one, but not by much. Both are really good.

On a different note, can somebody recommend me actually challenging Duke maps? I've been playing some usermaps recently, every one of them was easy as shit. Is there any challenge to be found?

>>4198498
Last Reaction and Water Bases. The first episode is kinda shit, but still difficult, the second episode is like a commercial game but with rather high difficulty romp.

The game even starts with 125 health, medikits store 125 as well, there are plutoniums with 75 hp, and the max health is 250.

That kinda shows what difficulty curve you should expect.

>>4198364
It's a great map though.

>>4198495
They planned a big story with episode 2 as a space station episode and episode 3 as a moonbase episode. In the demos all the advertising were just moon stuff, no city. With that said, I think every episode after LA Meltdown was an afterthought, that's why they have an anthology feel.

>>4198675
What do you like about it? To me it just feels like monotonous sewers and various puzzles.

Does anyone know any ways in which Duke 3d influenced Half Life? Did the guys who made Half Life ever discuss their thoughts on Duke?

>>4200194
It's the definitive underwater map of the game, moreso than Flood Zone. It has a great classic atmosphere, puzzles are interesting, some of them, like the shrinker and the gears are legendary, remade quadzillion times.

It offers a more moody atmosphere which is much rarer than your generic city shootings. The progression in Death Row, Toxic Dump and The Abyss is really amazing, they give you the feel of being desolated more and more in every minute, that's what made the episode so legendary.

Bump.

Do you think this game will get another episode in our lifetime by the original devs? What theme could be used there?

>>4201119
>What theme could be used there?
Alien Bastard homeworld.

>>4201119
Time travel

>>4201119
Maybe Duke goes back to the places from Duke 1 and 2 but now they're infested with the current aliens? I never played those but that could be interesting.

Dr. Proton should be in there as a boss. All the ideas above look good though. Time travel would allow Duke to visit some truly exotic places, like the one in Egypt.

>>4200215
Yeah, I fucking love the second half E1L3-5. I really wish we had more levels like those.

>>4196621
I like Overlord, though.

Thinking about it, the only levels I liked from E3 and E4 were Allen Blums. Levelord's best maps were in E1 and E2, and even then, besides maybe Abyss and Lunatic Fringe, I preferred Allen Blum's offerings by far.

>>4202807
LA rumble and Flood zone were great levels though.

On a sidenote: was LA rumble a wordplay on La Rambla ( the infamous street in Barcelona with the terrorist attack? )

>>4202807
>not loving every single map in E3

>>4203041
I felt LA Rumble was a bit boring, personally. Flood Zone is cool, but not a fan of its progression.

>>4203254
Its not awful by any means, but I just didn't find it as fun or interesting as the first two episodes. I kinda wish we saw more city maps from Allen Blum.

>>4182665
>>4185628
As a Doom virgin some time ago before nuDoom, I can safely say that somewhere along the way the quality and enjoyment was a giant downward landslide. I looked it up to see what was going on and it was because of Petersen. I would almost go as far as to recommend people to play the shareware and stop there. It made me want to not even start Doom 2.

>>4204039 (me)
>I felt LA Rumble was a bit boring, personally.
Actually, I was thinking of a different level. LA Rumble is actually pretty cool.

>>4204039
He made some for E4: Duke Burger, Babe Land and Going Postal. None of them are as good as Hollywood Holocaust or Freeway though, Babe Land is dull as shit.

What makes Allen's maps so realistic are his outside locations. Levelord is every bit as good designing the inside, but his outside areas are just square areas without height.

He was capable of doing the same as shown in LA Rumble and The Abyss, but he wasn't interested. Look at Raw Meat for example. It has very good inside parts, but those undetailed outdoors were just a letdown. I even noticed this as a kid, and became obvious today.

You are in charge of creating one new weapon and one new enemy type for Duke3D.

What do you do?

>>4207113
Railgun with iron sight
Pigcops with different suits. For Duke in out in DC and for the various levels of Alien World Order. Drug dealer pigs for Amsterdam anyone?

What's up with the sudden Levelord hate here? In the good ol' days, when Duke3D was a relevant game, there were 3 commonly played levels online: Hollywood Holocaust, LA Rumble and Hotel Hell. 2 of them by Levelord. Also he was the one who was hired to make Scrouge of Armagon for Quake. Blum wasn't.

Levels like Lunar Reactor and Derelict might have their fancy leveldesign, nobody cared shit if they are useless for multiplay. Single player is for autists anyway.

>>4207201
Let's be honest a second here.

One of the main reasons Hollywood Holocaust and Hotel Hell are played so much in DM, still to this day, were the glitches. Like the SoS glitches that allow skilled players to teleport from one floor to the next.
This is also true for LA Rumble to a lesser degree.

They're great maps though.

>>4207201
>Single player is for autists anyway

>>4207236
Who cares. They were intentional glitches to expand gameplay possibilities.

>>4207479
Welcome to 4chan, aspie.

>>4207523
>They were intentional glitches to expand gameplay possibilities.

No.

>>4207201
The game would have died 15 years ago if only multifags played it. Single player episodes, conversions, maps, along with the brilliant sourceports keep it relevant even today.

Also, Hotel Hell is a shit level.

>>4205353
>babe land
>city level

I personally wouldn't call it a city level. Amusement parks are kind of their own thing, and can exist in otherwise rural areas, too.

>None of them are as good as Hollywood Holocaust or Freeway though, Babe Land is dull as shit.
I think Duke Burger and Going Postal are about equal. And Babe Land is actually one of my favorite E4 maps, behind Derelict.

>>4207201
>What's up with the sudden Levelord hate here?
>Single player is for autists anyway.

Whats the point of even asking then?

>>4207201
>Also he was the one who was hired to make Scrouge of Armagon for Quake. Blum wasn't.

Ever thought this might be because Blum was still working at 3D Realms?

Lunar Apocalypse was the most awesome episode. Details are stunning. LA Meltdown, Freeway, Derelict are also great.

>>4209530
The Atomic Pack expansion episode, The Birth was by far the best. No contest.

>>4209530
I wonder how it happened that Duke 3D came to be seen as mainly a humorous game, when in actuality it is also and to the same degree a serious game. It's the presence of both aspects that makes Duke 3D great —neither would have worked so well on its own.
Lunar Apocalypse, being probably the most serious episode, plays an important role in the game's overall effect.
The shareware episode itself contains both funny and serious aspects.

>>4209530
I wonder how it happened that Duke 3D came to be seen as mainly a humorous game, when in actuality it is also and to the same degree a serious game. It's the presence of both aspects that makes Duke 3D great —neither would have worked so well on its own.
Lunar Apocalypse, being probably the most serious episode, plays an important role in the game's overall effect.
The shareware episode itself contains both funny and serious aspects.
The Abyss scared me when I was a teenager — those weird hints of alien religious rites are spooky.
In Lunar Apocalypse, I remember Dark Side being particularly eerie.

>>4209643
Everyone seemed to love the comedy elements, so Atomic Edition, The Birth, had a much bigger emphasis on that. It's almost full on parody.

>>4209648
Yeah, parts of Shrapnel City and The Birth have a sort of formulaic feel, like the designers just thought "Let's take a real-life location, make a level that's small version of it, and apply Duke-style satire to it." The first 2 episodes weren't like that. Most of the first 2 episodes weren't about such small places as "a sushi bar" or "a hotel"... or "a fast food restaurant" or "a police station"... it was either big sprawling levels connecting multiple different-looking areas so there was a sense of movement and scale as you played, or it was levels about single places but really big ones (like the prison in E1M3) or about sci-fi locations in space.

>>4209648
Yeah, parts of Shrapnel City and The Birth have a sort of formulaic feel, like the designers just thought "Let's take a real-life location, make a level that's small version of it, and apply Duke-style satire to it." The first 2 episodes weren't like that. Most of the first 2 episodes weren't about such small places as "a sushi bar" or "a hotel"... or "a fast food restaurant" or "a police station"... it was either levels connecting multiple different-looking areas so there was a sense of movement and scale as you played, or it was levels about single places but really big ones (like the prison in E1M3) or about sci-fi locations in space.

The storyline/progression angle was lost after episode 1. Even in episode 2, you rarely felt you are going anywhere, maybe with the exception of Lunar Reactor and Dark Side. The other episodes have great individual levels, but I never felt them being adventurous. The closest one was Mirage Barrage from the new episode, but that's just one level out of the many, and didn't continue.

>>4210614
>Even in episode 2, you rarely felt you are going anywhere, maybe with the exception of Lunar Reactor and Dark Side.
I'm not sure I agree. I think Episode 2 has a decently clear progression of going from spaceship to spaceship, then arriving at the moon. The occasional use of windows from which you can see other parts of the level across "space" really help with this. I do agree that it's not as clear as the progression in Episode 1, though

>>4210614
>Even in episode 2, you rarely felt you are going anywhere, maybe with the exception of Lunar Reactor and Dark Side.
I'm not sure I agree. I think Episode 2 has a decently clear progression of going from spaceship to spaceship, then arriving at the moon. The occasional use of windows from which you can see other parts of the level across "space" really help with this. I do agree that it's not as clear as the progression in Episode 1, though, with its "captured and put on death row", "escaping in a submarine", and "traveling through a toxic dump to a bunch of canyons" transitions.

>>4210614
>Even in episode 2, you rarely felt you are going anywhere

Eh, to be fair, Episode 2 is set in space.

>>4211335
Space theme isn't strong enough to carry a 11 level episode on it's back.

>>4212272
The aesthetic of the space levels really sucks me in —the textures, enemy choices, level design, sounds, and so on. The space episode could have been just generic "running through tunnels in space" filler, but I think that the actual product isn't that.

>>4198291
Pretty much this

>>4212272
>Space theme isn't strong enough to carry a 11 level episode on it's back.

Yes it is. Lunar Apocalypse is proof of that.

Rank Duke Nukem 3D's multiplayer maps

Also, do you think its impressive for them to create a level to be used both as single player map and multiplayer map? Or would you consider the developer themselves were just being lazy?

>>4214012
I don't really see how it would be considered lazy. Balancing a map around both takes a lot more time and effort than balancing a map around only one or the other.

>>4214012
People often fail to realize that the very fact that maps were made with both SP and MP in mind is part of the definition of "old school FPS level design".

For instance maps are interconnected because DM needs it. Also, most places have a lot of space to move around because co-op needs it.

For instance the cool little things like being able to enter the theater in Hollywood Holocaust by blowing up the front wall, are designed for multiplayer maneuverability in mind, but also influence SP.

This applies to most maps for DN3D, but also other Build games. Some maps though don't have this "multiplayer" design in mind and it's obvious MP is just an afterthought, most notably the kind of linear maps with a bunch of MP only teleporters that noone ever plays in DM.

This, is something that is missing from most usermaps, even the "classic style" ones.

Fusion Station is such a cool level in episode 2. It's so underrated despite being atmospheric and surreal, but in a good way.

>>4194568
You say that but there is at least one revision where an Enforcer is in the strip club in Red Light District

>>4199129
I only had the shareware for years so that screen fighting the Cycloid on a moon base used to tease the shit out of me

>>4214787
Yeah well, if we take all the development versions into account, there is at least two different Duke Nukem 3D anyway.

>>4214798
Gotta love the old DN3D mock-up pictures. Personally I was hyped up by the Duke It Out In DC ones, which came out with the 1 level demo which is all I had of it.
The pictures had bosses too shown in regular stages (Overlord in the subway).

...and explosions. There is NEVER enough explosions in a mock-up pic.

>>4216220
And we actually had to wait 20 years and World Tour in order to have (Battlelord style) mini-bosses versions of the Overlord and Cycloid.

>>4216220
>>4216221
never

enough

bosses

>>4216226
>>4216220
>>4216221
never

enough

explosions

Duke it out in DC suffers from bad enemy placement and lack of sounds and Duketalk.

They hired someone else to mimic John St. John for Caribbean, they should have done the same in DC.

>>4216265
It's probably Sunstorm Interactive's worst add-on, but it was also their first. They literaly went from making usermaps for DN3D to commercial add-ons for Build game.

I genuinely believe some of the maps from Duke It Out in DC are some of their own leftover usermaps. The subway map for instance is the least inspired, and most "usermappy", and it not even a SINGLE of the new textures of the episode was used in the map.

Enemy placement is never near as bad as in the plane map of Shadow Warrior Wanton Destruction though.

I thought the subway was one of the better ones. Smithsonian looked like a leftover though.

>>4216221
Mini Overlord was in DN64.

>>4183354
Link?