/vr/ - Retro Games

I like them

Why is it fake?

>>4055459
Looks like 3-Demon without the fun.

>>4055459
Shit, I gotta play Gyron some day.

>>4055510
You're not actually moving through them, it's like going warp speed in Star Trek. You bend the space around to where you ned to go

>>4055504
>im a retard and here is why
wew lad

>>4055459

I liked them in Phantasy Star, but I wish there was space for a small map in the screen or something.

Making maps is fine and all, but I usually just look the maps up these days.

>>4055459
More fun to program than to play.

I liked the ones in Getsu Fuma Den on famicom

>>4055459
I love them. Although then again I'm into rpgs like wizardry...
I have an incredibly bad sense of orientation, so I get lost a lot in first person mazes. Somehow, I enjoy the feel.

>>4055459
CONFUSING as fug because of how it draws it frame by frame

>>4055514
>Fester's quest
>Not fun
That certainly is a way to describe it.

>>4055514
Oh snap, 3-Demon... I remember playing this on my mom's yellow/blue display business laptop in the early 90's.

>>4055604
Agreed

>>4055459
It works well only if it has actual artistic direction of some sort., although I love dungeon crawlers so I won't complain if the game is good.

Any other dungeon as smooth as Phantasy Star?

>>4055847
Fester's Quest is as fun as Blaster Master.

>>4055974
I honestly don't think there is a single 2D game that matches the PPS dungeon scrolling. Pretty shocking, considering so many other dungeon games run on better hardware.

>>4055601
>he needs maps!
I really don't get this. I don't have a great sense of direction and I can get through the game just fine mapless. Getting lost is half the fun!

Sometimes I like them, and other times I don't.

>>4056260
>Getting lost is half the fun

Not in the later areas with the trapdoors that drop you to a lower level.

>>4055554
You're not "actually" moving in any game. The movement is step-wise and limited to 90 degree turns, but being constrained doesn't make it "fake."

>>4056260
>I honestly don't think there is a single 2D game that matches the PPS dungeon scrolling. Pretty shocking, considering so many other dungeon games run on better hardware.
It feels good, but it's just a bunch of simple lines with solid colors, you can see why it was easy to animate like this.

>>4055554
>>4056324
You are moving on a 2D plane, the 3D is just an illusion

>>4055510
Because rendering it doesn't actually require any perspective transformations or any other 3D wizardry. Also the layout is on a 2D plane.

>>4056432
to be fair, all graphics end up on a 2d plane. if you can fake it well enough, rendering with tiles and with polygons produces the same results, just under heavy constraints

>>4056575
Not really.
Actual 3D is in fact 3D, it has coordinates in the engine for space, it just ends up on your screen as 2D. This however is like gluing pieces of paper onto a sheet make them look like a cube.

>>4056608
There are different ways to give a 3D impression.

>>4056575
Well perspective transformation is literally defined as a taking 3D and projecting it into a 2D image.
What I mean is that in the game's logic, a dungeon is laid out on a literal 2D grid. The 3D effect comes from cleverly used spritework.

>>4055876
3-Demon is a surprisingly fun game.

it's one of my favorite /vr/ trick

i wish i knew how to replicate it, i tried programming an effect like this and i never quite got it

>>4057925
you can literally make a basic engine like that in 10 minutes and a dozen lines of code

>>4056615
Yes, but there's a difference between 3D and 3D impression.
Like demos on old 8 bit machines, most are pseudo 3D and when someone actually makes a real 3D demo it's an accomplishment.

But you are probably one of those faggots who asks "hurr what's the difference?"

>>4058254
Do you also think pre-rendered 3D isn't real 3D?

>>4058249
drawing the actual art for it is hard though

>>4055459
Gentsu fuma den and Goemon1,2.
Go into the 3d dungeon, turn right, turn left, turn back.
And lost
Can not go on and can not go back.
The only way rest is reset.

>>4056618
>>4056608
You are responding to a guy that has implemented a software render engine from scratch. I'm was being a little cute, but its a valid point.

>as a kid all I wanted was a playable version of this classic screensaver

>>4058417
I'm sure someone did it.

>>4056260
>I honestly don't think there is
Ah damn it. Seems like I have to play Phantasy Star then. I know there are some smooth wireframe dungeons, but that is too bare bones.

>>4058261
I though we are talking about 3D engines and games, not pre-rendered 3D?

Pre-rendered 3D can also be pseudo 3D or actual 3D, all depends how it was made.

>>4058386
>You are responding to a guy that has implemented a software render engine from scratch
So pretty much everybody here who isn't a typical /vr/ faggot and is older than 25.

>>4055459
What are you talking about. That's not fake. It's based on a true story.

>>4058590
We were talking about why pre-made walls can't be combined to create 3D effects.
The underlying principles are the same as for polygonal CGI, they just cut some corners to speed things up.

>>4055974
Shin Megami Tensei on the SEGA CD has smooth scrolling, but it's rather slow like PS's so you can turn it off for faster choppy animation and make it like all the other versions of the game.

>>4055974
Realms of Arkania 2: Star Trail. You can also switch to free movement but it's pointless since the maps are still grid based.

>>4055974

Escape From the Mindmaster was really smooth for an Atari 2600 game (although Starpath is cheating). Not as good as Phantasy Star, though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDuuZH1TlQU

indifferent until i met the mazes in Golgo 13.

jesus christ

>>4058417
I replaced the textures with Wolfenstein ones

THat said this is super possible in Doom anon, would you like me to give it a whack?

>>4058869
Holy fuck I had no idea the 2600 could ever look this good.

>>4058829
Nobody is saying you can't create 3D effects, you can literally make 3D effects on a piece of paper with a pen.
It's just that it's not _real_ 3D for the computer while rendering it.

>>4060219
The actual game is going on the little map on the bottom of the screen, the top part is just based on that.

>>4060224
Idgaf if it's an illusion the visuals are still better than I've ever seen from a 2600. Admittedly the 2600 is before my time, I started on NES and DOS

>>4060223
Are the computational internals important?
You can use parallel projection from 3D coordinates instead of perspective projection and nobody would consider it 3D.

>>4060237
Well, ones pseudo-3D the others actual 3D.
For all intentional purposes, when we talk about games, engines and how they render, yes, it's important.

If we we where spilling out words we don't know and don't give a fuck, then you might aswell go to reddit, not that /vr/ already isn't known for being tech illiterate.

>>4060252
The guy who did the maze graphics certainly used three dimensional calculations (or models) to create the proper effect and the rendering inherits it from there.
You might as well claim polygonal games, retro ones in particular, aren't actual 3D because they still cut a lot corners and simplify many aspects in order to speed up rendering.

>>4060274
If it's not rendering 3D with all the three dimensional calculation in real-time, it's pseudo-3D.

It's not hard to understand.

>>4055459
I get lost in them frequently.

>>4055510
In general, no 3D math is actually used in these, failing a test that even something as simple as a Wolf 3D style raycaster passes.

>>4060274
They are often not rendered at all and just a decent guess the programmer made once to make a 3d looking perspective. The game knows to display a wall if the player is x distance away from one on any of the 270/90 degrees the player can see

>>4060274
>The guy who did the maze graphics certainly used three dimensional calculations (or models) to create the proper effect and the rendering inherits it from there.
it's literally a filled 2D shape, the tie in with real 3D and calculations for it is miniscule, literary a few lines of code, it never looked convincing in the first place

>>4060369
>it never looked convincing in the first place
Now you're just bullshitting.

>>4060392
So you really think a wall in those 3D mazes, even Wolfenstein 3D or Doom looks more convincing then in early 3D games like Future Shock, Daggerfall or Quake?
Nah.

>>4060401
They're as convincing as a Renaissance drawing.

This was my first fake 3D RPG game

AD&D: Treasure of Tarmin for the Intellivision.

>>4060192
>would you like me to give it a whack?
Of course. Different anon here.

>>4060464
that skeleton a cute

>>4057925
Cheat.
Just make a raycaster and snap movement to a grid.

>>4055974
>>4056260
This C64 homebrew impressed me.

>>4060723
MY EYES

>>4060723
if you're going to do that, you could make nice, smooth rotations with very little effort for a little "oomph" (hell, even if it's just one intermediate frame, same with walking)
also, is there a reason you aren't using colors and the shade characters (0xB0, 0xB1, and 0xB2 in standard DOS CP437) and are resorting to eye-watering shading using plain text characters?

>>4060758
IIRC, there was some really terrible PC-Engine FPS that used exactly that sort of scrolling technique.

>>4058386
Kill yourself pedantic faggot. There's subreddits for your kind.

>>4061173
Fuck off until you have a basic grasp of what you are trying to opine on, twat

>>4061138

"Silent Debuggers".

>>4058869

It's also one of the best games on the system.
Love it!

>>4061202
Silent Debuggers is like traveling through a dark tunnel with sunglasses on, but I really want to give it a go sometime.

Case in point, take any good demo, like the following:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wi-NxM1EaXM

There are plenty of effects that run in real time and look 3d in this demo (and others). Are they "real 3d"? If you mean "do they look 3d", the answer is (subjectively) yes. If you mean "are they generated by the computer in real time using 3d/4d math", that depends on how the code was implemented. Demos are impressive because they often seek to push hardware beyond what it can intuitively do. Maybe someone wrote a really efficient program to do 3d with. Maybe they did something really clever with the graphic registers. Maybe even the code is doing no computation at all and just loading values from a lookup table. All these things are invisible to the user who just sees a 2d array of pixels at the end of the day. The only important thing is the state that 2d array is in, not how it got there.

If you went by the second definition of what it means to be 3d, you'd be sorely disappointed in the number of effects (especially in retro video games) that are hardcoded. Moreover, you'd overlook a huge variety of techniques employed in computer graphics.

>>4058869
>>4060219
Let's all not underestimate this little machine.

>>4060192
I'd play it.

>>4060224
Technically all games are going on based on arbitrary values that we are then displayed in a way we can understand

Is there a good casual maze game? Like, an entry point for beginners?

SMT1 and SMT2 do this great, though it has the everything-looks-identical syndrome forcing you to cast Mapper and check AutoMap every 20 seconds.

>>4064268
Swords and Serpents for NES might be a good candidate as it's relatively short, simple and comes with an auto-map feature.

>>4061202
ah, that was it, thanks
kind of wish it was better, it's got a kind of nifty sense of style
>>4060192
honestly surprised that no one has done this

>>4060758
going forward looks nice, rotation less so

>>4064402
well they had to fit on a SNES cartridge somehow

at least the PS1/GBA ports have more details

>>4055514
I remember playing that when I was 10 or 11 or so...my copy included a sick game called Bouncing Babies...remember that one?

>>4058417
>>4058537
Microsoft Hover was kinda like that.

>>4060723
Raycaster is overkill and a lot more complicated than the solution of using overlapping images.