/vr/ - Retro Games

Xenogears

>>4004890
/thread

Lunar

inb4 people complain that something that came out in 1992 is cliche because they're judging it based on the 25 years worth of stuff that came after it

>>4004882
Suikoden

Legend of Dragoon impressed me. They had a nice, wacky creation myth and a whole world & plot which blossomed from that.

>>4004882
The Suikoden series have pretty decent plots. They manage to work well the whole use of runes along with politics and war. Nothing mind blowing but pretty enjoyable.
Final Fantasy Tactics too. It's easy to get lost if you don't pay attention. Again, nothing mind blowing, but quite nice too.

Wild ARMs was breddy good.

>>4004882
>cliché or nonsensical or boring

Well maybe they're just not for you OP because yes, FF7 is world class for plot.

FF8 tho...lol

I thought FFX was a very well designed, story and execution

>>4005001
This.

>>4004882
For retro I felt BoFIV had a great plot. It has a lot of subtle sybolism involving Asian religons such Buddism, Taoism, and Shintoism that really ties into its Asian influence. Throughout the game the player will switch between the main protagonist and antagonist and see how both come to grow and develope their thoughts. The world is interesting, the gameplay is fastpaced, and the soundtrack is extremely unique for a jrpg.

Tactics Ogre: Let us Cling Together. Or any Matsuno game, actually.

Mother 3 idk if that's retro enough for this board but fuck it

>>4005206
I remember playing through this game as a kid now it is possible I didn't know what was going on since my memories are hazy at best but I remember being very disappointed when I finished it since a main villian of the story I had been looking forward to killing got away

>>4004890

We will never know this for sure though since no one has ever finished disc 2

>>4004882
>Which jrpg has the best plot?
Xenogears.

>>4005245

It's not.

>>4005213
This

>>4005245
>namefag talking about a 2006 gba game on vr
pls go

>>4005247
You are not mistaken but allow me to explain the importance of this aspect.

The main antagonist and main villain are not the same people. Fou Lu is the main antagonist but Yuna is the main villain. Fou Lu is the one providing the central conflict that the heroes are concerned with resolving, Yuna is the one who has been the main source of evil in the world of the game. Yuna's schemes are also ultimately the source for Fou Lu's hatred of humanity. When ressurected from his sleep Fou Lu experience countless tragedy. An army burns a forest down to try to kill him, he learns the peaceful empire he onced ruled over is now a strict dictatorship that has created decades of war, and a innocent woman who falls in love with him despite not knowing his true background is used as a sacrefice for a weapon used to try to kill him. Ultimately all of this occurs because of Yuna. During the final battle Fou Lu vows to destroy humanity as the evil of the world outweighes the innocent. He believes that unless evil is punished it will only thrive and grow worse. By having Yuna escape with no consequence we see that his view isn't entirely wrong. If he received punishment then Fou Lu's point would seem baseless and make him shallow. Players are able to see that his point is actually understandable. The player may not agree with his view but his view feels more logical and understandable.

Not retro, nor jrpg, but pic related has the best plot in gaming

>>4005440
oh I was 9 when i first played it maybe it is about time i gave it a revisit

>>4004882
I thought Terranigma had a great plot, but in the end it's all pretty subjective. Some plot might be gold to some and shit to others, and some basic plot might just hit the sweet spot for you better than some grand epic.

For me plot is kinda secondary in the grand scheme of things, I love games like SaGa 1-2 where the plot is super sparse, or Final Fantasy 1 where the plot is just bite-sized. Doesn't help I like player-customizable parties with the burden of characterization left to enemies/rivals or friendly NPCs.

But I digress, at the end of it, it's too much of a personal thing.

>>4005492
>I love games like SaGa 1-2 where the plot is super sparse
SaGa 1 has an incredible build up and finale though, you might not like the simplicity of the plot or the weird settings, but it sure as hell delivers.

>>4005456
The plot is fucking barebones, its only saving grace is the twist at the end.

>>4005529
Oh, I personally love it. It just works, and the setting is really great. At times, less is more.

Try playing JRPGs for the world-building instead of the plot and you might enjoy them more.

>>4005440

Im really happy to see someone whose not me post this and people finally starting to get it

>>4005620
The two should intertwine. The story of the world around the characters should tie into the events of the game.

>>4005629
I agree, but OP's statement about plots can cover almost any game if you boil it down. Has something similar been done before? It's cliché or boring. Is it trying something new? It's too nonsensical. And to top it off, there was often something lost in translation in older JRPGs, which could affect the plot. For example, the story of Shining Force and Phantasy Star IV can both be reduced to "ancient evil awakens" but the worlds, and the way the characters interact with them, are worth seeing.

>>4005620
The problem is that most JRPGs have terrible worldbuilding outside of those that completely rely on it, like Metal Max or SaGa games.
If you play any FF the worldbuilding is nearly nonexistent, with most of your locations being checkpoints with little importance or actual place in the lore outside of the event that makes you go there for the first time, take places like Troia, 90% of FFV towns, Costa del Sol and whatever else, those place stop existing the moment the main plot is done with with them, there's no reason to go back to them at all and are rarely mentioned, on the contrary, take a place like Koorong in SaGa Frontier or really any region that isn't Nelson, they're all connected with each other in the lore and main plots and there's always a little something that makes everything click together the more you play, explore, talk with NPCs and connect the dots, but again, it's because those games strives to create a believable world rather than telling a "epic" story.

Even a game that is lauded for its worldbuilding like Xenogears suffers from this problem, made even worse by the fact that the game railroads you and has most of its locations being a one time only experience, what am I to make of Nortune in the grand scheme of things when it gets bombed after an hour and what little remains(one room and a minigame) stops existing until a boss battle in disc 2?
Nisam is frozen in time after you go there until Bart's story arc and gets a small cutscene in the second disc, almost all NPCs outside of it seemingly even ignore its existence, Aveh is the same, so is the Thames and so on for most locations in the game that get conveniently destroyed and never mentioned again once you're done with them, the only places that are actually relevant to the worldbuilding outside of the Zeboim ruins are basically Solaris and Shevat, and again, both get bombed, most of the locations in the game lose any relevance once the main plot is done with them.

>>4005547
i dont wanna sound pretentious at all believe me, but the genius of the game lies more in the underlying themes of the game and not so much the forefront of the story. the idea of all the monsters being shaped by James' sexual perception, pyramid head being a representation of self torture, the fact he doesnt care about his life (reaching elbow deep into a toilet full of who knows what that was and just carelessly jumping down holes potentially to his death). i could go on but that kinda stuff is where it shined.

Xenosaga trilogy. If you disagree, you never touched it or finished it.

if we are talking plot, just astounding shit happening at a relentless pace, I am surprised that no one has said Final Fantasy Tactics. The characters are a lumps of lead, but the political machinations, the religious court intrigue, the massive torrents of shit hurled at the MC, are amazing. it is well worth any effort taken to play it.

personally, I thought Xenogears was too inconsistent, tonally. it was "EPIC PLOT", but there was too much goofing around for my liking. shit like the pink pokemon who turned into a GIANT pink pokemon to fight gears, the loli who rode on her gear's shoulder, the four ninja ho's whose mecha combine like a Power Ranger... blegh. also, the battle system was too tedious to carry the weight of the stupefying enemy encounter rate

>>4005721
good. worldbuilding is totally gay. like morrowind

>>4004882
Earthbound I thought were really good. Mother 3 too but it's not retro.

>>4008421
And Xenogears's paper-thin characters certainly didn't help.

>>4005213
This

>>4004882
Certainly not FFVIII.

>>4008421
>the four ninja ho's whose mecha combine like a Power Ranger... blegh
fuck you they're cute.

also the real answer, other than "anything my matsuno", is valkyrie profile

>>4005004
muh nigga

>>4004882
FF7 - midgar part, excellent presentation. Also Cloud story twist. Other parts of plot are pretty meh, including villain. Notable mention of Cid and his little story.
FF8 - i play this game for cool movies and card game
FF9 - nice banter between characters for some sensible chuckles. Aside from that? No. It's a chase like "goonies" movie, or something.
FF10 - good story for what it focuses on. However, its VERY focused. Nothing besides that. No worldbuilding, banter, no nothing.
FF tactics - for what vagrant story should have been. If they would cut out random battles with ugly looking monsters in between, this would be top game.
Suikoden 2 - 2 different approaches in solving given situation. Kind of like FFT really, but with different meat in between.
Xenogears- the gameplay is so low, that one cannot cherish story. As a game, it looses.
BOF3 - again, poor gameplay.
Alundra - much better storyline than Zelda, if you want to count that into JRPGs.
Legend of dragoon - existentialism? I don't remember exactly, but it was good.
Persona 3 - some characters. main plot is as shit as it gets.

>>4005213
This T.B.H.

>>4005456
Also this.

>>4009493
You sound like a supreme faggot that constantly looses.

>>4009529
excuse me? go back to /v or whatever

>>4009493
Continuation:
FF4 - we smash bad guy :)
FF5 - needs to kill random character every 2 hours to keep the story interesting. Its a poor technique, but somewhat works.
FF6 - save the world
Koudelka: Nice little criminal story. It is concise, very short rpg. I've heard it's entry to shadow hearts series. Can't say if SH have good story, haven't played.

Anyway, OP. What are western rpgs examples with good storyline? Want to see what you are looking for, because I played western ones as well.

>>4004882
FF9, hands down.

>>4004965
Don't fall for this meme OP, this game is incredibly overrated.

>>4009703
PRINCESS
CUTE BUTT LOL
HEHE HES GOT A TAIL LIKE GOKU FROM DBZ
THE ULTIMATE BAD GUY IS A QT TRAP

>>4004882
Video games are inherently a bad medium for telling a story which is why even having a great plot for a game ends up being pretty bad compared to something like a novel.

>>4009712
>CUTE BUTT LOL
well, it IS a cute butt...

>>4009712
Just because people say retarded things about the game doesn't mean that the game itself is retarded. Ok, yeah, some of the dialogue in the game itself can get kinda retarded too, but I can overlook that.

I'll happily admit that one of the main reasons I hold FF9 in such high regard is nostalgia. I played it when I was 12, and the only prior JRPG experience I had before that was Pokemon/Paper Mario/MMBN, and FF9 was an experience like none I had ever had before. The plot twists on disc 3 just blew me away. It permanently raised the bar on what video games meant to me and what they were capable of doing.

BUT.

To this day, the plot and characters in FF9 just feel ALIVE to me in a way that other video games can't replicate. Characters come and go, their goals shift over time and sometimes they don't really have a goal at all, sometimes they have to hurry, sometimes they just chill out and take in the scenery. You don't feel like you're watching virtual rats get railroaded to the end of the maze, you feel like you're getting a temporary window into the organic lives of real people in this world. I don't think I've ever played another game, and certainly no other JRPG, that captured this same sense of dynamism.

>>4009745
>To this day, the plot and characters in FF9 just feel ALIVE to me in a way that other video games can't replicate. Characters come and go, their goals shift over time and sometimes they don't really have a goal at all, sometimes they have to hurry, sometimes they just chill out and take in the scenery. You don't feel like you're watching virtual rats get railroaded to the end of the maze, you feel like you're getting a temporary window into the organic lives of real people in this world. I don't think I've ever played another game, and certainly no other JRPG, that captured this same sense of dynamism.
Well congrats, because that whas the whole concept of FF9. Anyway, the topic is about plot, I don't know if you noticed that.

>>4009301
> valkyrie profile

This.

>>4009745
That sounds less like the story itself and more like character development and story structure. I'm probably wrong.

>>4009912
> character development
there is little to be found there. More like showing thriving, living world.

The question is, what is sufficient for "plot".

>>4004890
Fantastic plot. It was just told incredibly poorly. And that's not counting the budget problems.

>>4010004
>Fantastic plot. It was just told incredibly poorly.
like, not to be pedantic, but this is a contradiction.

you use "story" to talk about events. you use "plot" to talk about how they are stringed together. the execution of a story is its telling, its plot. so what you meant to say is that you enjoyed the story but disliked the plot.

>>4010019
Also the Xenogears plot is terrible anyways. Metaphysical word salad that people think is deep just because it's full of convoluted references.

>>4010057
but xenogears' plot is good because of its scope and hoe it manages to tie in so many different elements and ideas into one cohesive storyline. The message is simple in general though and as someone who just finished playing it a few hours ago I was even impressed because I thought the philosophy/psychology references were either straightforward plot devices or very lightly touched upon. It's pretty clear it wasn't supposed to be deep in the first place.

>>4009901
>>4009912
Obviously the actions of the characters in a plot are important to the plot.

>>4010096
Yes, but plot is mainly about some kind of conflict, human condition, hard choices etc. Sims is not enough i think.

FF9 was too much happy go lucky adventure with a poor twist at the end to treat it like it had good plot. Grim tales have more character development.

>>4010086
By the way, I still have a million problems with the plot's execution, like throwaway characters who were only used for advancing the story, like Hammer, most of disk 2 which was a major disappointment and how it made countless parts of the plot absolutely shallow, the repetitive use of twists with incredibly similar patterns, especially how every fucking time they sit down to plan something, they get surprised by how the enemy figured out their plans, the gradual uselessness of most of the party because there were just too many characters around, among other things. I still really liked it because of it sheer ambition and effort to really suck you in into all the universe, though.
I honestly think the game would have greatly benefited from taking itself more seriously, and with a little bit more willingness to raise stakes, such as characters dying and so on.

>>4010086
>hoe it manages to tie in so many different elements and ideas into one cohesive storyline.

It doesn't tie any of them in well at all.

>>4009493
>FF10
>no banter

The fuck are you talking about. The majority of the game is banter between the characters.

>>4010325
not really, they were just talking about yuna and local religion/ catastrophe. Compare that with FF8 or FF9, or even FF7.

>>4010445
Yeah, I had this feeling that FF10 characters barely interact with each other. The focus on story is all the way on the pilgrimage. And a bit on Wakka religion, Sin ball. But it's more about plot than character of any kind. There is no chemistry between characters, and it feels really akward.

Take FF7, FF9 or Persona 3. Each character have his mini-storyline. They interact more with the main character.

In FF10, I have no concept of any character, besides the fact that they are extrovert or introvert.

>>4004882
It's more like a collection of short stories, but some of the best storytelling in a retro game is in Legend of Mana.

>>4004890

pikachu on a cross

>>4005130

It definitely has some good elements. Sin is super cool, and Yuna's professional duties, as they're presented in the early part of the game, carry some emotional power. Wakka is endlessly likable.

But it gradually comes to falter more and more as it progresses, thanks to the same old convolution that nearly all these games drag in for no good reason. Some of the emotion fades away. In the early game, when a town is destroyed there's a big moving cutscene in which Yuna mystically dances while the townspeople mourn. In the late game, Kimahri's race gets genocided or whatever because ridiculous Seymour decided it would be funny, and nobody even really notices or cares. The story about the origin and nature of Sin is interesting, but it also undermines much of what comes before. The whole system that drives the main quest just HAS to turn out to be transparently, irredeemably corrupt. It feels like a cheap way to wring more plot out of the setting, at the expense of rendering some of the most powerful scenes from the first part of the game mostly pointless. Also the character design is weird and ugly, which works awesomely on Anima and terribly on everything else; Seymour's hair, in particular, is the stupidest thing that has ever appeared in any Final Fantasy game.

Depends on what you consider a good plot. Terranigma's narrative is fairly loose, but by the end had a greater impact on me than almost any other game I've played, so that's my answer.

>>4004882
Jrpg is not a genre.

>>4011239

>>4011973
fucking chu chu what were they thinking

>>4005004
LoD is hard to get through because I'm pretty sure it was machine translated, and proofread by Japanese high school students.

>>4009715
I wouldn't say they are a bad medium for storytelling so much as a young medium. This is why I would rather play a JRPG for its worldbuilding or atmosphere over plot, though. A good novel wins plotwise every time.

>>4012147
I understood it fine. What's it like being a cro magnon in this modern age?

>>4004882
Ff8 aged better.

>>4005009
To make a somewhat predictable comparison Final Fantasy Tactics is the Game of Thrones of tactical rpg's. Complex political plot in a fantasy world that's on a whole different level from regular FF plots

>>4012147
I don't remember the translation being anything aside from typical jrpg. I need to play the native and see if I'm wrong though.

>>4004882

>>4012790
The player having agency in a game is in direct conflict to telling an interesting story. When a game tries to focus too much on telling a specific story it has to remove agency from the player in order to control what happens so the story works.

>>4014452
Too bad final fantasy does neither

>>4014461
Too bad indeed. That's the trouble with many games that try for story. The game part still gets in the way, limiting the way it's told but it also usually sacrifices interesting gameplay at the same time.

>>4004882
Persona 2.

>>4004963
If it weren't for Vic Ireland's "so bad, it's good" localization no one would have cared about Lunar.

>>4014489
>If it weren't for Vic Ireland's "so bad, it's good" localization no one would have cared about Lunar.

The opposite is true. The bad translation only held it back. That and being stuck on the Sega CD. Aside from the translation they were excellent games and should have been in the same boat as CT, FFVI and PSIV

>>4014489
technically, the localization can be considered very good. i still have the same, unrelenting and fierce hatred for the policies that the localization was built on regardless. fuck vic ireland.

>>4010970
No it's not

>>4015941
Hot opinion. Tell us what you think was better. Xenogears?? LOL

>>4016241
>MUH MINIMUL STORYTELLING

>>4014502
Nah, what held it back was being a sub-par RPG with a cliche plot.

>>4014689
Technically, I guess. It was good for all the wrong reasons. Kind of like the Ghost Stories dub.

>>4004882


Soul Blazer
Final Fantasy Tactics
Final Fantasy VI
Alundra
Robotrek
Terranigma
EVO Search of Eden
Snatcher
Xenogears
Final Fantasy VII
Suikoden 2
Vagrant Story
Earthbound
Chrono Trigger
Tales of Destiny
Ogre battle let us cling together
Persona 3
Shadowrun
Valkyrie Profile
Vandal Hearts

All those games kept me engaged anon

>>4018690
I confirm, this guy knows his games well. Some of those listed do not offer gameplay on par with excellent story, unfortunately.

And I wouldn't list some of these as JRPG, but, as someone already did say, it's pretty vague genre.

>>4004882
Xenoblade Chronicles
Chrono Trigger

>>4004882
>Japs
>in charge of a good plot
A hearty chortle was had.

>>4018825
OK. Name not japs game with a good plot.

>>4004882
I never come here, but I'll say FF9. The last one for the original PS.

That game moved me.

>>4018836
Fair enough. I suppose I should have said:
>expecting any games to have good plots
>playing games for the plot
Kek.

>>4018836
Planescap...ah fuck it, they're all trash plots like >>4018854 said.

>>4011331
Terranigma's narrative was fantastic.

>>4010057
>I'm an idiot so it sucks
Lololol

>>4018854
Better. Now we're cool nigga.