/vr/ - Retro Games

>>3873817
It's not really that everyone else fucked up, it's that sony were lucky enough to absolutely hit it out of the park in a way that nobody could have predicted

Atari started fucking up right after the 2600.
3DO was the first and only console by that company, same with the CD-i, same with Pippin.
PC-FX was a "fuck up"? Not sure how it did in Japan.

N64 and Saturn didn't get to sell as much as PlayStation, but still they're far from a fuck up... except maybe for Saturn outside of Japan, but that's more because of SoA/SoE's politics than the console itself.

Nobody knew exactly how to provide for 3D game design. Sony adopted a simple but flexible architecture, rather than getting tripped up by previous 2D design philosophies. In a big way there couldn't have been a better time to design your first video game console.

>>3873828
>PC-FX was a "fuck up"? Not sure how it did in Japan.
It only shipped 400,000 and was primarily developed as a visual novel machine with its FMV capabilities.

>>3873828
Bandai had a whole bunch of consoles: Super Vision 8000, Arcadia, RX-78, Playdia and Apple was a household name in computers.

Philipps had released the Odyssey in Europe and developed its own successor, the G7400.

>>3874103
Which one of the consoles in the OP is by Ban Dai?

>>3874206
The Pippin

>>3873817
>why was it in 5th gen that every company fucked up their console except for sony?
But sony did fuck up, the PS' hardware was the worst in its generation.

What Sony did right was creating a rather affordable, easy to develop for hardware with CDs and giving carte blanche and loads of support to all kinds of developers, coupled with all other big names shooting themselves in the foot the PS became the perfect storm.

I really don't get why you put the Pippin or even one my dentist's instruments in your image, but that's the way it is.

>>3874392
having poorer hardware is only a problem is games can't be made with it. PS1 outperformed N64 and Saturn in meaningful ways and had massive dev support, it's not a fuck up if devs can do what they want with it and players are served well with it.

Saturn was overengineered and costly but still found success in getting developer support and was a hit in Japan. N64 well, it was big in America. Can't say much else about it.

>>3874431
>PS1 outperformed N64 and Saturn in meaningful ways
In what way? Other than the video codec it had for FMVs. Otherwise, 3D was better on N64, and 2D on Saturn. PS1 didn't excel at either.

>>3874431
>N64 well, it was big in America. Can't say much else about it.
It also had a moderate success in Japan, didn't sold as many units as the Saturn, but somehow it sold more software.

>>3874439
PS1 beat saturn in FMV support and in how it could handle 3D. It was also faster at 3D than the N64. N64 had many games with low framerates, while the PS1 had often targeted 30fps and even had many 60fps games. 2D wise the saturn was betetr but the PS1 wasn't exactly a slouch in this regard.

>>3874447
>It was also faster at 3D than the N64.
Yeah, because it had a lower polycount. When N64 games also had a lower polycount they could also go at 30 or even 60fps.
And yeah I never said Saturn did better 3D than PS1, but I could tell you the same thing you said: 3D wise PS1 was better, but Saturn wasn't exactly a slouch in this regard, look at stuff like Virtua Fighter 2 running at 60fps on a Saturn. Yeah, it's 1st party, but still.

>>3874447
Isn't that mainly because of the anti-aliasing?

>muh powerful n64
tell me a single N64 game that looks better than FFIX, Vagrant Story or Ridge Racer Type 4 (bonus points if it goes above 20 frames)

Power is not everything

>>3873817
First, because it was a time of 2 big transitions: from cartridge to CD and from 2 to 3D. N64 had 3D but didn't have CD. Saturn had CD but ha shit 3D and overthought architecture.
Second, only 3 consoles out of these 9 had something going for them. Atari had been making shit since forever, refusing to get with the times. 3DO got outdone mere years after its release at a much lower price. Amiga is self-explanatory, it was euroshit. CD-i was more like a media player with joypad. The rest simply couldn't compete with the juggernaut of PS.

>>3873828
>3DO was the first and only console by that company
So was PSX.

>>3874487

I love the PS1 and the games you listed (well, except for FF IX), but you'd be a delusional PS1 fanboy if you wanted to argue that PS1 was capable of better 3D than N64. It simply did not.
You're also mistaking art direction with raw graphical power. Vagrant Story has very clever use of textures and art design, but technically it isn't a marvel that couldn't be done on N64 or even the Saturn.

>>3874503
the point is that being capable of better 3d is worthless if you can't produce more beautiful visuals

you're telling me that there wasn't a single developer that could deliver beautiful 3D graphics to the 64? either it's that (doubtful), or the 64 had some issues that prevented beautiful looking 3D techniques. When I think of N64 games, all I think is blurry muddled textures with poor color palette

>>3874487
Rogue Squadron

>>3874509
"beauty" is subjective, anon. Objectively, N64 was capable of better 3D than PS1 and there's no other way around to it.

>you're telling me that there wasn't a single developer that could deliver beautiful 3D graphics to the 64?
Again, beauty is subjective, but I really like the graphics on the Goemon games for N64 (character models, textures, colors, etc), I think they're some of the most gorgeous games of 5th gen. The 3D goemon game on PS1 is awful by comparison, or even without comparison.
As for 2D, Wonder Project J2 on N64 has some of the best 2D sprite animations I've seen on 5th gen as well, even if that wasn't the N64's forte.

>When I think of N64 games, all I think is blurry muddled textures with poor color palette

That's a moot point because it's your subjective, biased opinion on the N64. And anti-PS1 guy would tell you that all PS1 games look "like pixelated vomit with jittering textures".

>>3873817

Jaguar could have been a solid budget console if they didn't do that retarded deceitful, aggressive marketing campaign.

Despite how it looks, the controller is actually very comfy. There's a mistake in the architecture which bottlenecked its performance unnecessarily but it was still powerful enough to do Doom.

It could have hung tight behind the big boys surviving on ports of less demanding games. And if they didn't fuck up the architecture, John Carmack is on record as saying it could have hacked it with the 32 bit consoles. We could have seen the sort of 3D that was achieved on the GBA near the end of its life.

>>3873817
Imma let u finish but n64 was the best console of all time

>>3874523
>beauty is subjective
typical post-modernist argument. It's obvious that italian renacentist architecture is more beautiful than brutalist architecture but there's always some brainwashed college guy who comes with the subjective argument (aka not an argument).

Look, I don't care about the numbers and techno-babble mumbo jumbo that N64 could pull it off, it just didn't show, there's more visually appealing games on the PSX (and even the Saturn) than in N64. What I see on the screen is what matters to me, not a technical spec sheet. This is like the guy who has a chiseled gym body but can't beat the lumberjack worker in a fight. I don't care about theoretics, I want real-life results.

>>3874543

Fuck you, get punched in the face with a concrete fist. You are not good enough to step inside a brutalist building.

>>3874476
anti aliasing doesn't have much of a performance hit on the system since the system is designed to do it on such a basic hardware level.

>>3874472
I dunno, omegaboost isn't exactly a slouch in its visuals and it's framerate is solid as hell. N64 on the other hand is pretty universally a mess. I can only think of one game that targets 60fps and it makes some major sacrifices.

>>3874543
>posting a cherrypicked screenshot from an emulator
You're just a guy who wants to hate on the N64. That's okay, but don't go around trying to voice your opinion and subjective views as some sort of truth.

>>3874431
>PS1 outperformed N64 and Saturn in meaningful ways
No it didn't, it was easier to work on but it was undisputably worse than both at 2D and 3D, the N64 was a powerhouse marred by a few stupid hardware decisions.
>and had massive dev support

That's the key, as long as you have devs willing to work on it you can make really good stuff even on a toaster, because that stuff sells and devs will try to squeeze everything out of said toaster, which is what happened on the PS, but it is objectively the inferior machine out of the big three of the time, what made it not look like it was that devs were more than willing to do arcane black rituals of engineering and optimization with it, but arcade ports were still way better on Saturn and the technically more impressive 3D games were on N64, no matter how you look at it the PS was the inferior console hardware wise.
The difference is that 99% of people were on the PS bandwagon and almost nobody bothered putting some serious effort in either the Saturn or the N64.

>>3874557
hes not wrong.

>>3874561
n64 had no real world results apart from f-zero x which runs at 60fps but there were gigantic compromises. Like mono audio due to a shitty system architecture. Each individual component could have competed with a voodoo 2 and I wouldn't give a shit because nothing on the system showed it off in this state. PS1 was faster at doing 3D and it showed in real world results.

>>3874557
fine, find me a non-cherry picked screenshot then. It's funny because most people hate "emulator screenshots" for the contrary reasons: that it makes games look better than they appeared on TV

not everyone who disagrees with you is an "anti-X". I don't have anything against the N64, had loads of fun with many of its games and F-Zero X is a personal favorite of mine. The only way you wouldn't call me anti-N64 is by slurping the supposed great visuals of the console. I mean, it was a common complaint back in the days (that the games looked ugly). Yeah, we could see it was a powerful console, but games looked ugly. Most PC games of that era were more powerful than what consoles could put out, yet they've aged horribly because they're ugly as sin. This is not to demean the quality of these games, or those from the N64; I'm just stating that I prefer to look at the most beautiful PSX/Saturn games than the most beautiful N64 games. I'm not saying anything outrageous.

>>3874573
>hes not wrong

About his subjective opinions?

>>3874579
>fine, find me a non-cherry picked screenshot then.
Okay.

Also, the emulator thing was mostly because emus make some stuff display incorrectly on some N64 games (like the lines drawing the 2D tree sprites, they don't "pop out" that much on the original console). Goemon games just don't emulate 100% correctly, sadly.

>it was a common complaint back in the days (that the games looked ugly)

The same goes for PS1 and its pixelated textures and jittering.
You're talking about art direction, not graphical capabilities. We were originally talking about objective graphical capabilities, N64 is just better at 3D than the PS1, doesn't matter if you think N64 games look "ugly", or if some PS1 games have 5 more frames per second (and a lower polycount).

>>3874601
ok, PSX games generally had better art direction than N64 games and thus looked much better, making the power difference highly negligible as an end result. Happy? now you can keep masturbating with your specs sheet

>>3874608
which is what I meant in my first post, "power is not everything"

I don't get how can anyone get so mad at that sentence

>>3874580
He distinctly described how two things can be different regardless of anyone's opionion. Such as: Eating a plate of garbage vs eating a plate of food. Yes, you can have the opinion that one of them is fantastic, but it doesn't make you right. One of them is unhealthy and will cause problems if you eat it. You're using the word subjective to escape what he's telling you, look, he clearly described it here:

>It's obvious that italian renacentist architecture is more beautiful than brutalist architecture

the worst part is, this has been done many times before, saying the word "subjective" to distract from literal descriptions of why one thing is inferior to another. As much as I hate the word, I think they call this argument a straw man. I might be wrong.

>>3874608
>masturbating with your specs sheet

I'm not like that, I like both N64 and PS1. But PS1 simply wasn't more capable in terms of 3D graphics, this doesn't mean I'm fapping to specs, it's just a simple information fact.

>PSX games generally had better art direction than N64 games

Be careful, with "generally" we're including an actual average? The average PS1 game was garbage visually. Not every developer was Squaresoft.

>>3874601
PS1 games are higher polycount on average due to many of the better looking games making use of tessellating faces in order to minimize distortion. In a good scene, a PS1 game will look better than every N64 game. In a good scene on the N64, once you get past the blurriness, you'll find a low polycount, a lot of stretched surfaces, and probably some fog to provide a clean cut off.

When the games start pushing the system, it's a fight for resources and nobody can get enough, and everything starts running incredibly poorly. PS1, its well managed enough for the most part.

THPS4 even hit the PS1 and was a very playable game, N64 stopped at THPS2 simply because everything past that was beyond the systems scope. Nintendo could have had a PS1 killer if they let the retail price go up a little higher, but they didn't, and the result was a system with ugly video output, bottlenecked hardware, and not enough games.

>>3873924
Well did it function as a VN machine?
Seems like they got the niche market they were going for.

>>3874103
>RX-78
Is it shaped like a gundams head?

>>3874617
>I'm not like that, I like both N64 and PS1. But PS1 simply wasn't more capable in terms of 3D graphics, this doesn't mean I'm fapping to specs, it's just a simple information fact.

I can't believe you're this thick. I WAS NEVER TALKING ABOUT POWER AND CAPABILITIES. I don't care about your information facts because they're way off base and not related to what I was stating, that is Art Direction > Power

I'll tell you something: I greatly prefer the looks of 16-bit games to those of the 32/64 era. That doesn't make me "anti-5th gen" nor I'm stating in any way that I believe that the SNES was more powerful than the PSX. Hope this gets the point across

>>3874608
>now you can keep masturbating with your specs sheet
That was the whole argument since the beginning, the hardware.
And again, it's not art direction, it's competent devs working their asses off at coding and finding clever solutions around a console's limitations, why you rarely see nowadays, sadly enough.

>>3873817
Because Sony always wins.

>>3874614
To be fair, neither PS1 or N64's 3D can even come close to italian renaissance architecture, it's a very silly comparison.

>PS1 games are higher polycount on average due to many of the better looking games making use of tessellating faces in order to minimize distortion.
On average? Are you sure?

You keep bringing up the blurriness (which isn't even bad if you're using a CRT), but you keep omitting what I said twice already: the same can go for PS1 and its pixelated, jittering textures.

All consoles had its pros and cons.
PS1 had average 3D and average 2D, but it had the better video codec and the easiest hardware to work with.
N64 was better at 3D, and Saturn was better at 2D.

>>3874487
Don't forget Wipeout 3. Looks great even today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1lGyZ_zo_D0&t=34s

>>3874641
I've played pretty much every game worth giving a shit about on the n64, the few games that can be considered more visually impressive on the n64 run like absolute garbage and came out very late in the consoles life. PS1 had it beat early on, in pretty much every game released on both platforms, and even after both platforms period of relevance faded. Apart from Perfect Dark, The world is not enough and turok 3, n64 games were really far from lookers. And interestingly, all of these games had really bad framerate issues.

>>3874643
b-but muh distorted textures
>comparing this to any N64 3D racer
>none of them stack up
>the only 60fps one has such basic geometry it would look more fitting on the SNES

>>3874658
Actually there's a Wipeout on the N64. Graphics-wise it looks about the same as Wipeout 2097/XL but has some cool lighting effects in it, doesn't look as good as Wipeout 3, though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a4nh9nztM6g

>>3874652
>I've played pretty much every game worth giving a shit

According to who, you?

>>3874697
yes, according to me. Not much of a mahjong man or a virtual casino player so I never played games like golden nugget 64, but otherwise yeah, the library only has like 50 games worth playing anyway.

>>3874727
Okay, but you kept omitting my point about PS1 having pixelated and jittering textures.
Anyway, I like both systems, and honestly I enjoy N64 and Saturn better than PS1, at least I find myself going back to these consoles and not to the PS1 that much nowadays. I did play a lot of PS1 back in the day though.

>>3874729
I don't care about the ps1's textures being pixelated, there's a bigger problem with the dithering filter present in many games. the broken textures appear at the edges of the screen and are only a problem in some games. It's why many games try their best to counteract it with tessellation. It's not perfect but it's not a deal breaker.

I like all 3, but the more I look back at the N64 the less good I'm seeing and the better the PS1 and Saturn get the more I invest in them.

>>3874658
>muh distorted textures
feels bad man

>>3873817
The PSX was so revolutionary it got everything right the first time and every console today still has a main unit, dual analog controller, and disc media

>>3874447
>N64 had many games with low framerates, while the PS1 had often targeted 30fps and even had many 60fps games
It's easy to cherry pick. It's because most N64 games went for 3D world simulations, while many PS1 games were basically 2D games with polygons. Like-for-like situations, the N64 came out on top.

>>3874552
>anti aliasing doesn't have much of a performance hit on the system since the system is designed to do it on such a basic hardware level.
The N64's SDK quite specifically says that turning on anti-aliasing will double the use of memory bandwidth (i.e. cutting remaining bandwidth in half).

It's only free in the sense that the N64's GPU can process an anti-aliased pixel in a single cycle

>>3874552
>I can only think of one game that targets 60fps
I can't think of a single game with a "full world" 3D simulation on PS1 that is 60 FPS. As I said above, it's easy to cherrypick 2D games and fighting games when the N64 did not have many games in those genres.

>>3874573
>n64 had no real world results apart from f-zero x which runs at 60fps
See above.

>>3874618
>PS1 games are higher polycount on average due to many of the better looking games making use of tessellating faces in order to minimize distortion
I hope you realize that when the PS1 uses extra polygons for tessellating surfaces, those are, for all purposes, wasted polygons. Other than the minimization of texture distortion, you cannot visible notice the extra polygons.

>>3874618
>In a good scene, a PS1 game will look better than every N64 game. In a good scene on the N64, once you get past the blurriness, you'll find a low polycount, a lot of stretched surfaces, and probably some fog to provide a clean cut off.
You've got it backwards. A good PS1 scene will still suffer from the unfixable limitations of the hardware (no per-pixel z-sort, affine distorted texture mapping, imprecisely coordinated vertices, jaggies, and color banding). A good N64 scene will resemble a Dreamcast game at a lower resolution (framebuffer, textures) and polygon count. Furthermore, the N64's faculties for calculating vertex lighting is particularly advanced compared to the competition.

>When the games start pushing the system, it's a fight for resources and nobody can get enough, and everything starts running incredibly poorly. PS1, its well managed enough for the most part
Because you're still cherrypicking. A huge number of PS1 games run very poorly. It is true, however, that the N64 was a much more difficult machine to optimize. But of course, if you look at the best vs best, the N64 clearly produces more impressive graphics (technically speaking, artistic is subjective).

>Nintendo could have had a PS1 killer if they let the retail price go up a little higher, but they didn't, and the result was a system with ugly video output, bottlenecked hardware
Just need to make this clear, the N64 hardware is only bottlenecked if you turn all of the GPU's features on. The console has insufficient memory bandwidth to have anti-aliasing, z-buffer, filtering, et all turned on. Those are very expensive in terms of memory bandwidth.

That being said, the N64 has more memory bandwidth than the PS1 has. So, if both consoles were producing exactly the same visuals (and I mean EXACTLY), the N64 would be much MUCH faster.

>>3874658
Wipeout 3 ran at 30 FPS. Is there even a single racing game on PS1 that is 60 FPS? Genuinely curious.

According to Brian Fehdrau (lead programmer of World Driver Championship, also Secret of Evermore), World Driver Championship on N64 pushes a higher polygon count than any PS1 game ever released. He actually checked this by opening a whole bunch of good-looking PS1 games on emulators like R4 and checking their polygon counts.

The game can render eight high-polygon vehicles simultaneously at a solid 30 FPS. On top of that, it's still has the usual N64 effects. With one exception: z-buffer (per-pixel sort) is disabled to free up memory bandwidth. Instead, the game does PS1 style sorting of polygons, except with higher precision. WDC does real per-polygon sort, while most PS1 games do per-mesh sort.

It's also one of the few games in 5th generation to do fogging properly. Actually looks like a field-of-depth effect in this game as opposed to just hiding shit behind a grey wall.

The N64 supports REAL alpha-blended fog, that's why.

The largest reason some PS1 games looked sharper is because they ran in "high-res" mode of 512x224, while virtually all N64 games targeted 320x240. Of course, this was only a portion of "top" games, basically the usual suspects: Crash, Spyro, Soul Reaver, etc. N64 games that ran in high-resolution mode usually were 480x360 and looked sharper than pretty much all PS1 games.

The vast majority of PS1 games also ran at 320x240 (notably, the Squaresoft games). These don't look significantly sharper than N64 games. They also looked "clouded" but rather than by blur, they look clouded in a mess of pixels.

Other reasons for the N64's so-called "blur" is that the console does significantly more aggressive dither filtering. Basically, both the PS1 and N64 internally render 8bpp (24 bit color) but downscale output to 5bpp (15 bit color). If you just lop off 3 bits off each color, you'll get serious banding. Both consoles run their framebuffers through a dither matrix to prevent banding, but the N64's version is more aggressive in eliminating banding and dither artifacts. The trade-off is more blur though. Fun fact: the 3Dfx Voodoo's dither matrix is almost identical in operation to the N64's one. Only looked sharper cause games were 640x480.

Also the N64 does some special hardware upscaling of the framebuffer to offset CRT artifacts particularly on shitty CRTs. This also makes image a bit more blurry, but less flickey.

>>3873817
N64 went with cartridges.
Solution: Go with compact discs, or even floppy disks like they did with the original Famicom Disk System and N64DD if they were worried about piracy.

The Sega Saturn was a complicated mess to program for, overpriced, and rushed to launch.
Solution: Skip the 32x launch and focus solely on launching the Saturn alongside the N64 to compete with it's main rival more adequately. Skip competition with the PS1 entirely. Refocus the system on pure 3D performance and make it less complicated.

Atari never knew what to do after the 2600.
Solution: The 7800 should have been what the 5200 was. This would have fixed things far before the Jaguar.

3DO
The 3DO was an overpriced mes that could never survive in a Playstation world.
Solution: None.

The Amiga CD32 was never released in North America and lost a large install base.
Solution: Get the console out as fast as possible in North America and start marketing.

PC-FX. Far too late sequel to the PC-Engine, only released in Japan.
Solution: Release it sooner, and give it a fucking NA release.

The CD-i was never a games console, it was always an educational interactive multimedia device. Games were forced on it so it could compete.
Solution: None.

Apple Pippin was a multimedia device that tried to do video games but every single game was pure garbage. One of the few systems in existence with literally 0 "gems" or good games. Even the CD-i has Burn Cycle and The Apprentice.
Solution: Create better, more fun and interesting games.

There is a two-fold reason virtually no N64 games without Expansion Pak ran at a resolution of 512x224 or higher like Crash, Spyro.

The first is that the use of a z-buffer consumes RAM space additional to the framebuffer. Making the framebuffer larger (high resolution) would also require a correspondingly larger Z-buffer to go with it. Quite simply, even though the N64 has more RAM than the PS1, it doesn't have the space to do high-res with a z-buffer.

The second reason is that the use of a z-buffer itself vastly increases demands on RAM bandwidth. Having a larger resolution and framebuffer would simply increase these demands further.

This is just to reiterate my point that the N64 is only "bottlenecked" when it is trying to achieve a much higher level of visual accuracy than the PS1.

Sony didn't stick with cartridges, didn't mismanage two add-ons to a 4th gen console, and allowed pretty much anything on the PS1.

It wasn't so much that Sony "did things right," it's more that they didn't do as much wrong as everyone else.

>>3875263
>N64 went with cartridges.
>Solution: Go with compact discs, or even floppy disks like they did with the original Famicom Disk System and N64DD if they were worried about piracy.
What? That seems backwards. One of the reasons the playstation was so popular was that it was so easy to pirate games for it. Modchips were so common in third world countries that no one had genuine games.

>Solution: The 7800 should have been what the 5200 was. This would have fixed things far before the Jaguar.
Also makes no sense, the 5200 was a huge commercial flop. The 7800 was at least compatible with their 8-bit computers, which were moderately successful.

>>3874528
Hell no

>>3875289
Discs for storage capacity was the biggest reason Nintendo lost third party support. You don't know your gaming history. It was how they lost Square and final fantasy 7.

And he meant the 7800 should have been released in place of the 5200.

>>3875305
>Discs for storage capacity was the biggest reason Nintendo lost third party support.
The comment I was replying to didn't mention 3rd party support, it's about piracy. I'm pointing out that both CDs and floppy disks would have been much easier to pirate than cartridges.

>You don't know your gaming history. It was how they lost Square and final fantasy 7.
Thanks but I did know that. I don't see how that has anything to do with piracy either.

The 7800 thing makes more sense I guess, but I don't see how you can ask them to release more advanced hardware in the past. That's like saying the N64 should've been released with the hardware of the gamecube, and nintendo would've beaten sony in the 5th generation.

>most ps1/n64 games play and look like dogshit
>most saturn games play just fine

makes you think huh

>>3875346
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZUcPQAMvg

>>3874528

hell yeah

>>3875346
>most saturn games play just fine
i take it you've never played a saturn game made by a western developer

>>3875226
>Is there even a single racing game on PS1 that is 60 FPS
Ridge Racer 1 on the bonus disc that came with R4. However, you could only race against one opponent.

>>3875396
All five of them?

>>3875226
>Is there even a single racing game on PS1 that is 60 FPS? Genuinely curious.
Rapid Racer

>>3875626
dude like at least a third of the games on this list were made by western companies

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sega_Saturn_games

>>3874487

anything Rare ever made

>>3873817

Can someone explain to me how the Atari Lynx became a thing in dentist's offices?
I remember a blurb about it in an old EGM or gamepro I got when sick.
Sorry if it's too much a digression.

Developer relationships

>>3874439
PS1 was easier to develop for, cheaper to develop for, easier to get meaningful performance out of, and you didn't have to suck Nintendo's dick just to get your game published in small numbers where 95% of the profit is eaten by the cartridge costs.

>>3875742
the jaguar you mean. Pretty much they printed so many plastic shells that after the jaguar flopped they just sold off the stock of those shells to dental equipment manufacturing companies. Said companies probably also bought the mould in order to produce their own and that's about it I think.

If you've ever seen one in person, they're surprisingly big consoles. I always imagined them being fairly small.

JUST

>>3874472
>Saturn wasn't exactly a slouch in this regard, look at stuff like Virtua Fighter 2 running at 60fps on a Saturn.

Saturn was a slouch in 3d. It had exactly two advantages: The background processor could create huge skyboxes and large ground for no performance cost, and it could do high resolution easier (polygon hardware had built-in support for drawing odd/even lines only, so it needed half the framebuffer).
Maybe you could use the backgrounds to do free fogging, but only 1 game ever did that (Sonic R).

However it couldn't do any lightning, shading, or transparency in high-res or even medium res, it had less VRAM for textures meaning it had to make do with 4-bit colour, it was 5 times slower than the PSX when drawing polygons, and it couldn't do proper transparency unless you were fine with giving up half the video hardware (and even then it was ugly at it).

>>3875241
>Actually looks like a field-of-depth effect in this game as opposed to just hiding shit behind a grey wall.

No, it does the same thing as other games, it just has a large enough draw distance so you don't see it.

>>3875768
It's kind of similar to this effect rather than just fogging at the visibility line like a lot of games did

>>3874439
>In what way?
It had better games.

>>3874208
I mean it's technically by Apple and distributed by Bandai in Japan.

>>3875716
math isnt your strong suit huh

>>3873817
Sony's console was plenty fucked. But they made smart deals with content makers, and got the best games.

>>3875921
Sony also had assloads of money to pour into the console in order to buffet it as the optimal consumer choice that generation.

I think with the fifth gen, a lot of companies had been smelling blood in the water during the close of the 4th gen, so they all rushed out their own game machines to claw in some market share.

But most of those companies didn't pour the resources that a mega-corp like Sony could. I mean, Atari was a tiny former shadow of its old self, and the Euro computer scene was never going to be enough to support the monstrosities of the C64 and Amiga CD32. Trip Hawkins' 3DO company tried and secured some decent deals through its extremely generous licensing deals, but its manufacturing deals and less-powerful-than-advertised console combined with a ludicrous price point to more or less make it dead on arrival.

>>3875791
>It had better games.
Subjective, I like about 20 or 30 games on PS1 (exclusives-only, not counting ports, arcades -that are anyway generally pretty bad ports anyways-, etc).
I like more games on Saturn or N64 than on PS1.
I liked PS1 RPGs back in the day but not anymore, these long ass animations and loading times are unbeareable, and FMVs don't do it for me anymore.

>>3874502
PSX was the first console by Sony, certainly not the last. Sony also brought a lot of experience from working with Nintendo.

>>3876153
No. That would be the playstation.

>>3874618
>THPS4 even hit the PS1 and was a very playable game, N64 stopped at THPS2 simply because everything past that was beyond the systems scope.
THPS4's PS1 version is playable because it's a port based on the THPS3 engine, just with new textures, tricks and stages. The only reason Activision made that version was because Sony was still supporting the PS1 then and they would be stupid to ignore the install base, so they made a quick port. Meanwhile, the N64 actually did receive a very good port of THPS3 as it's last retail release, and could've taken a THPS3-based sequel, but Nintendo had discontinued the N64 by 2002.

>>3875346
>Virtual Hydlide

>>3876153
where does it say Playstation X?

>>3878338
In the console firmware, the early dev kits, and the 1995 US promotion material, and on tons of gaming magazines and advertisements.

>>3874543
Goemon 64 is one of the prettiest videogames IMHO

These decisions were all made by companies trying desperately not to fuck up, which is how capitalism tends to work out-- greater risk is taken when you're in the position of Sony, who was third party to Nintendo, and could see clearly what to do.
When you're trying desperately to avoid risk in an inherently risky situation (3D tech possible but not tested on the open market) you can't see clearly, you are in the vicelike grip of stock value terror, ruled by committee instead of by the risky visionaries who got you there.

>>3878346
That's still not the name of the system.
You don't go around calling the Nintendo 64 the "Ultra", or the Dreamcast the "Katana"

>>3878373
>not calling every game sytem "the nintendo"

>>3878373

PSX as a shorthand for Playstation goes back to it's release, it's in common usage, and no one plans on changing that because your autism rises when you see PSX.

>>3873828
A lot of people tend to hold video game consoles to a different standard than other products.

Sony did way better than Nintendo, but that doesn't make the N64 a failure. It sold a lot of units and was a commercial success. You know how hard it is to sell 32 million of something while making a profit?

Even the Neo Geo Pocket was a commercial success despite not having a lasting legacy. It made money for the company that created it.

>>3878416
Nintendo were making more money during the PS1 and PS2 years than Sony were. Granted they were making money from GBC/GBA too.

forgot my picture

>>3878414
>PSX as a shorthand for Playstation goes back to it's release

It'd be just shorter and easier to write "PS", like they do, and always did in Japan, the country of origin of the system.

>your autism rises when you see PSX.
Nah not at all, call it the PSBBQWTF if you want, I was merely making clear that PSX is, and never was the name of the system, it's PlayStation, PS for short.

>>3878426
>Nah not at all

The fact that you are compelled to respond when someone uses PSX proves otherwise.

>>3878424
holy shit the wiiu really did do poorly

>>3878437
I replied to >>3878346, not to the guy who casually used "psx"

>>3878507
>holy shit the wiiu really did do poorly

Still not as poor as the PS3.

>>3878373
Except that people did go around calling it PSX.

>>3878426
>It'd be just shorter and easier to write "PS", like they do, and always did in Japan, the country of origin of the system.

In Japan it was called プレステ.

>>3876153
>certainly not the last.
Who knew that in 1995?

>>3873817
I can agree with most consoles in the pic except:
- PS1 is ok
- N64 is also ok, atleast had real 3D
- PC-FX had potential but a little late and too few developers who really cared about actually USING any of the hardware except video..

Other consoles are just crappy CD hypeshit.

>>3878373
>>3878338
>>3878426

I always have this image for underage baiting faggots like you

>>3878543
Actually, some non-official sources also called the N64 the "Ultra 64" for a while around 1996 when the system launched.
I know some publishers in the west also used "PSX" sometimes, there's always that anon that posts the back of a Midway collection that says "PSX".
As for the devkip and the PCB and all that, yeah, the Nintendo 64 also has traces of the Ultra name in its serial names ("NUS" - Nintendo Ultra Sixtyfour).

>>3878549
Yeah but when they use romaji (which they use, especially if you look in Yahoo Auctions, mbok, etc) they use PS.

>>3878574
Just to clarify, I never said "nobody used psx", just that it's not the official way to abbreviate it, that's PS.

>>3878198
To correct myself it would be Nintendo Playstation.

>>3878316
>most

>>3878593
>official way to abbreviate it

>>3878593
>thinking we care about "official" ways
>thinking we are company shills
back to /v/ with you

>>3873817
Because the PS1 was basically Nintendo's console before Sony made off with it. Thus began the death of the vidya industry as we knew it.

>>3875304
>>3875391
lol

>>3878786
>>3878798
>m-m-muh PSX
Fucking grow up you stupid tards if your life so so shitty adding an "x" to something makes you feel extreme and cool you need to kys

>>3878815

>>3878798
>we

And you're telling me to go to /v/?

>>3878620
The Nintendo Entertainment System came before that. It wasn't the first either.

>>3874503
the *potential* doesn't matter if it is never realized. the ps1 had more impressive games visually than the n64

Step 1: Go look up archives of Official Playstation Magazine. Yes, the magazine *created and written and endorsed by Sony.*

Step 2: Look through it. Even issues long after the release of the console.

Step 3: Note how many OFFICIAL, SONY-WRITTEN/ENDORSED ARTICLES mention the name as "PSX".

Step 4: Shut your mouth because you were a child when the PSX came out and you don't know any better.

>>3873817
I was an active gamer, albeit a little kid during that gen, but aside from the top row and the Atari jaguar I don't even know what those other systems even are.

Glad those other systems bombed, I didn't realize there were so many out at that time. Could've easily turned into a crash.

>>3879027
>the ps1 had more impressive games visually than the n64

[citation needed]

>>3879039
>look up archives of official playstation magazine
>look through it
>note how no sony written articles use PSX
>laugh at child on the internet who couldn't even provide any of the many examples he claims exist
There's a reason shitposters even more dedicated than you only manage to post the same handful of clippings referring to it as PSX. Because that's all there is.

>>3879892
It definitely had a greater number of visually impressive games, because the number of "visually impressive" n64 games is so small, and the playstation library overall is so huge.

Not necessarily saying that the best playstation games look better than the best n64 games. That is pretty subjective and depends on non-technical factors like art direction.

>>3873817
The only thing the 64 messed up was their controller. PS1 messed up by oy have 2 ports and 2 memory card slots.

All systems from that generation are pretty bad though and havent aged well, along with their games too.

>>3880748
Also i want to add that people using 3d games and game design as an excuse, its not a very good excuse because 3d pc games had already been around for years and fleshed out most design problems of the time.

>>3880748
They messed up their hardware so much that it blurs the shit out of everything while also giving low frame rates

The hardest one to understand is the pc-fx. Given how successful and popular the PCE was, its follow-up was such a colossal fuck-up that it's hard to comprehend a company banking solely on Anime FMV games to succeed.

When your library is inferior to the 3DO, you have to do some serious soul-searching.

>>3880757
N64 does suck, but my post was more about not giving the PS1 a free pass because it has flaws too.

>>3873827
I still remember going to the E3 that year. Everyone was buzzing about Sony's first console foray wondering what it'd be like and if it was just a cheap cash in, but once we saw it in action not a single person left doubting Sony's commitment to entering the market in a BIG way.

>>3880757
>They messed up their hardware so much that it blurs the shit out of everything
read >>3875259

>while also giving low frame rates
see >>3875195

>people caring about "muh name"

>>3880778
They had plans to upgrade the hardware. There is an expansion slot that could have utilized cards with stuff like PowerVR but the system never reached enough distribution for that.
The anime strategy was an attempt to get the most out of the base capabilities.

Their big mistake was that they didn't release it in response to the SFC as was originally planned. A 91 or 92 release could have helped NEC hold their ground but by 94 their base had already eroded and there was a new boss in town.

>>3880757
>blurs the shit out of everything
Use a CRT to play SD games.

>>3875305
No, Atari should have made something like the XEGS instead of the 5200. A console version of the 8 bit computers that was backwards compatible with the entire 8 bit line instead of a huge shitty piece of crap that wasn't backwards compatible with anything and had shitty controllers.

Atari should have also got European and Japanese developers to port games from other consoles and computers to the the 82's XEGS.

In fact, Atari should have made 2 of them. One as powerful as an 800 and the other, a high end machine as powerful as the 1200.

Atari should have stopped selling the 2600 by third quarter 1983 and released the 7800 in Christmas 1983, with a lot of ads about backwards compatibility the power of the new machine.

Atari could have even given away their surplus 2600s to mollify retailers that they screwed over.

>>3881631

So you're saying Atari should have competed with itself by releasing the the XE in '82 (which I agree they could and should have done) AND releasing the 7800 in '83?

And you know, that big '83-'84 crash would probably still have happened.

The 7800 was a hail mary after the (certain) failure of the 5200. But the year it was developed and (first) released ('84) was the same year the Famicon came out which could already run circles around a 7800. And its coming to America was inevitable.

I agree that the XE should have been the 5200. Clearly. But I don't see how the 7800 would have ever come to pass had the '82 XE been even a moderate success. Also, Atari's follow-up console should have been something they developed themselves, not farmed out to GCC.

But none of this addresses the biggest problem: there wasn't really an Atari anymore. Warner Communications didn't GAF about video games, and Jack Tramiel didn't GAF about consoles, he only wanted his Atari ST "Commodore killer".

>>3880897
Nigga even with a CRT N64 is blurry
and I'm using S-video

>>3882027
Use the RGB mod with de-blur feature (which reverses the internal GPU linedoubling designed for shitty CRTs) and all the blur is gone

>>3882035
Why shouldn't I just use a cheat device and use a code to get rid of it like someone showed some months ago?

>>3882043
Because the code achieves sharpness by disabling the dither filtering. True, disabling the dither filter will also give you more sharpness, but it exists for a reason: to prevent horrible dithering and color banding.

On the other hand, the RGB and HDMI mod "de-blur" feature just reverses the console's linedouble scaling. If you're using a good quality CRT or flatscreen there's literally no drawback to using de-blur to disable that scaling, unlike the cheat codes which fuck up image quality in the process of sharpening.

>>3875191
>it got everything right the first time
>dual analog controller
Do you mean the controller that didn't come out until the system had already been on the market for two and a third years, or the version that included vibrators seven months after that?

>>3882049
you can tell if somebody is born around 1995 since they don't know this was even a thing

>>3875346
As long as you only play 2D games on it, Saturn is brilliant.
Too bad about those hideous quads though.

>>3875191
>The PSX was so revolutionary it got everything right the first time and every console today still has a main unit, dual analog controller, and disc media
>dual analog controller
nope

psx controller was just a d-pad, 4 buttons and an L & R

>>3882027
Nah nigga, with a CRT it's not that bad. I could understand the "N64 is blurry" complaint if people is using HD screens, but on a CRT it looks fine, depends on the game too, but generally looks fine.

What I don't understand is why people always complain about N64's "blurriness" and not about PS1's pixelation and incorrect perspective. When I was a kid I had both consoles, and the one that made my eyes bleed was PS1, I considered N64's "blurriness" to look smooth.
Of course, when more powerful games came out on PC or Dreamcast I understood N64's textures weren't the best, but if I had to pick the anti-aliasing or the pixelation, I'll go with the AA.

>>3874487
>>3874509
>>3874543


>Being THIS mad at the nintendo 64.

How can sony shills be this fucking delusional?
Just keep crying babe no one will remember the pixelated mess games that you named.
Ocarina of time, and Super mario 64 look better and more surreal than any of those menu fight rpgs made by square. They even had to use cgi videos so people won't notice how bad the graphics were.
How can you fucking say that weeabo art style in those rpgs are better than the more iconic n64 games. Is just fucking obvious you NEVER played the console.


>>3875238
rekt

>>3882083
Dem triggers, though. You forgot those.

>>3881657
>The 7800 was a hail mary after the (certain) failure of the 5200. But the year it was developed and (first) released ('84) was the same year the Famicon came out which could already run circles around a 7800. And its coming to America was inevitable.

Atari didn't need to be first.

They just needed to survive.

>>3881657
>But none of this addresses the biggest problem: there wasn't really an Atari anymore. Warner Communications didn't GAF about video games, and Jack Tramiel didn't GAF about consoles, he only wanted his Atari ST "Commodore killer".

Dreams are all I have left......

>>3878574
But there's a digital video recorder called PSX. So I think calling it PS would be better to avoid confusion.

>>3886443
There's no one confused since both units have existed as PSX and it will always be that way so its pointless try to troll people into changing their minds.

s.h.i.t mags called it teh x end of discussion

>>3881657
>So you're saying Atari should have competed with itself by releasing the the XE in '82 (which I agree they could and should have done) AND releasing the 7800 in '83?

Why not? One Machine for 2600 fans and one for Computer fans.

>>3880613
Nigga, everyone was routinely calling it "PSX" back then (yes, even in 1998 or 1999).

You would know if you weren't a 18-year-old newfag.

>>3874641
>To be fair, neither PS1 or N64's 3D can even come close to italian renaissance architecture, it's a very silly comparison.

It's called a metaphor. You cant refute an argument by deliberately taking it literally. That's another strawman tactic.

>>3888450
No, it was a silly comparison even methaphorically.

>>3874543
I hope you're not comparing italian renacentist architecture to the PS1's wobbly pixelated mess of graphics.

>>3874392
>hardware with CDs and giving carte blanche and loads of support to all kinds of developers
More like giving a carte blanche to people with CD burners

>>3888474
I remember as early as 1996, piracy was rampant in my country.
All Playstations sold in any store (toy stores included) were modchipped, ready to play bootlegs. In fact, I've never seen original PS games in stores, it was always bootlegs from china.
That alone helped the PS become the most popular console in my country.

CDI is best console hurrr durrr

>>3882127
Because atleast you CAN see those pixels.

>>3883034
>>being this autistic

>>H-h-how dare somebody insult the great N64! I mean, it had less than 10 good games, and had a shit controller, but it had Mario! and Zelda! Doing the same thing they've always done, but in 3d! Who needs new ideas, it was 3d!!!! M-m-muh autism!

I specifically remember hearing people call the ps1 the psx back in the 90s/early 2000s.

>>3874643
wipeout looks great, and has solid music on every platform. it's just a great IP

>>3878373
>You don't go around calling the Nintendo 64 the "Ultra", or the Dreamcast the "Katana"

You don't go around calling a Genesis a "Mega drive" either.

oh wait.

>>3874543
>typical post-modernist argument. It's obvious that italian renacentist architecture is more beautiful than brutalist architecture but there's always some brainwashed college guy who comes with the subjective argument (aka not an argument).

you're talking about subjectivity and yet a lot of people would think all fifth gen games objectively look like shit. you're insanely stupid if you think subjectivity is "post-modern" in the slightest.

>>3888706
The MD/Genny proto name was Mark V.
Some autist on here actually called it the "Mark V" for a while until he got tired of getting people calling out on his 'tism, I guess.