/vr/ - Retro Games

No.

Yes.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qdBKq7o6RTE
What a piece of SHIT

No. But the Sonic destiny would, as this shitty game would have buried him forever.
And that's not a bad thing.

No and in fact it could have likely forever killed the franchise because their is no way it would have been as fast as even Sonic Adventure. They basically had no choice but to wait for more powerful hardware before Sonic can actually be done halfway decently in 3D.

I think a 2D Sonic game for launch on Saturn would have been a lot better for the console if we are to assume it would have had the same specs it had. Of course it also would have been a lot better had Sega not made the 32x and CD. A waste of time and resources creating that could have went into making the Saturn better. We could have also had a really nicely developed 2D Saturn Sonic with some effort put into it.

It would have sold more Saturn's in America, for sure, but it would have likely been a pretty nothing game with middling reviews, not helping the Saturn be any less of a failure. Sonic Adventure would have outdid it in every way a couple years later too.

>>3774873
I felt sick watching that.

If Sonic X-treme had been Sonic Adventure, and Saturn had been Dreamcast, Sega would still be with us today (impossible, I know, but still)

>>3775043
so skip an entire generation and hope brand loyalty would stay while Sony fills in the cracks?
I'm sure that would fair well.

>>3774873
I can imagine that static camera angle making that very hard to play

>>3775097
No. If Dreamcast had come out at the time that Saturn did, INSTEAD of Saturn... as impossible as that is, it would have been the best timeline.

>>3774873
the part at 1:46 actually looked kind of promising
presumably a final build I'm guessing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzvS_beXtXk
I really like the music in this one.

>>3775104
>the part at 1:46 actually looked kind of promising
>presumably a final build I'm guessing

No, it was a different engine used for boss fights. STI wanted the main part of the game to use the fisheye crap, and the boss fights having you running around on a mode 7 ground.

Sega of Japan did a surprise visit to check how far they are done, and STI didn't have a presentable version of the fisheye levels, but had one for the boss fight landscape. So SOJ said that they wanted the entire game to look like that. This amounted to a project reset (in mid-1996, with the game slated for a Christmas release), and it is what started the downward spiral that led to the game getting canned.

>>3775108
Hey that wasn't too bad. The music almost makes up for everything else. I probably would have even liked it as a kid.

>>3774852
No, even with a killer app the console would have still be too expensive to produce, leaving them noncompetitive in pricing as the playstation steadily became cheaper.

I honestly believe the price of the system was the biggest issue, I remember when I was a kid waiting in the car for my brother to buy a saturn, he walked out with a playstation 1 instead. It wasn't a hard switch, the playstation had demonstrably better 3d graphics, was much cheaper and had Tekken.

The go to excuse for saturn fans is that the 2d was much better, but it's difficult to really show off framecount and sprite scaling to the average consumer, especially with 3d being seen as more interesting.

>>3774873
>that trashy "not van halen" guitar will surely polish this turn
Its a colossal shame Sega didnt understand 3D development till the dreamcast

>>3775212
*turd

>>3774873
I got a headache watching this, what the fuck were they thinking?

>>3775212
I never understood why Sega's CS division didn't make the Saturn a 3D-capable console when their AM division were making stuff like Virtua Fighter and Daytona on the arcades.

Stuff like Burning Rangers are fucking nauseating to playe.

>>3775212
Even nvidia bet on quads back then with their failed NV1 chip, no one knew what direction tech would go.

>>3774873
Looks like a fucked up, nauseating Bug!.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XFBwRnf3ZUQ

>>3774852
better marketing would have made a difference, at least in NA

>>3775315
Xtreme went with the fish-eye lens effect so you could see more of the playable area at a time.

>>3774873
>that fucking music
was this made by soa? shit man

>>3774852
No.
Maybe if they released the Saturn when it was ready and not just rush it out for E3 as a surprise, and make it the same cost of the PlayStation. Then MAYBE is wouldn't have been a big failure as it was.

Maybe even if they cancelled the 32X and put more time into developing the Saturn would've helped it too.

>>3775102
Did the DC technology even existed in 1994?

>>3775613

SEGA could just about pull it off in the Arcades by then, squeezing it into a home console would have been mission impossible.

>>3775539
>Maybe if they released the Saturn when it was ready and not just rush it out for E3 as a surprise, and make it the same cost of the PlayStation. Then MAYBE is wouldn't have been a big failure as it was.
Doubt it would've made much of a difference. The Saturn was launched on the same month as the PS1, so they already had the hardware finished by that point.
>Maybe even if they cancelled the 32X and put more time into developing the Saturn would've helped it too.
Perhaps

No.

>>3774852
It would've have at least a short-term gain but Sega was ran by crackheads so it wouldn't change much in the end.

>>3775646
Well, that's why I said "as impossible as that would have been" but, lookie here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGfXSHAJVk
Apparently something more like Sonic Adventure could have been made for the Saturn. This is an early build of Sonic Adventure designed FOR the Saturn. If only someone had had that idea at the time to do this instead of the fisheye thing this might not have been a flop. Which is kind of what I was trying to say. Of course Dreamcast graphics in a Saturn body would have been great too!

>>3775646
Well, that's why I said "as impossible as that would have been" but, lookie here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGfXSHAJVk [Embed]
Apparently something more like Sonic Adventure could have been made for the Saturn. This is an early build of Sonic Adventure designed FOR the Saturn. If only someone had had the idea at the time to do this instead of the fisheye thing, this might not have been a flop. Which is kind of what I was trying to say. Of course Dreamcast graphics in a Saturn body would have been great too!

>>3775646
Well, that's why I said "as impossible as that would have been" but, lookie here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJGfXSHAJVk
Apparently something more like Sonic Adventure could have been made for the Saturn. This is an early build of Sonic Adventure designed FOR the Saturn. If only someone had had the idea at the time to do this instead of the fisheye thing, this might not have been a flop. Which is kind of what I was trying to say. Of course Dreamcast graphics in a Saturn body would have been great too!

>>3774892
>and CD
The CD was made years before the Saturn was developed. It was designed to compete with the PCECD.

>>3774852
Not the fate of Saturn, but the fate of Sega itself might have been different. It set in motion a chain of events they never recovered from, which eventually led to their demise. Dreamcast should have been much more successful, and it would have been if they didn't have to basically sit out an entire generation of platforms. People started to forget about Sega, and they couldn't re-remember in time to make Dreamcast the blowout it would have been otherwise. Most people opted to wait for PS2, in case Dreamcast was just another Saturn.

>>3774852
Not only the fate of Saturn, but the fate of Sega itself might have been different. It set in motion a chain of events they never recovered from, which eventually led to their demise. Dreamcast should have been much more successful, and it would have been if they didn't have to basically sit out an entire generation of platforms. People started to forget about Sega, and they couldn't re-remember in time to make Dreamcast the blowout it would have been otherwise. Most people opted to wait for PS2, in case Dreamcast was just another Saturn.

in short, we would have been traveling the galaxy right now if this game had been made
the lesson? never let an american do what the japanese can do better

>>3776107
And they shouldn't have bothered developing it. From what I understand a lot of what killed Sega was consumers getting upset that they kept putting out too many peripherals and consoles way too quickly. They also did a surprise launch of the Saturn which upset retailers as well.

Fact is that Sega was an absolute mess of a company and righting their wrongs would have been a huge task. There is so much things they needed to do better as a company that it becomes obvious to anyone why Sega doesn't make consoles anymore.

>>3775043
>>3776075
i think the sonic R engine would have made for a good sonic adventure style game, but i think 97 would have been too late to save the saturn

Dat music doe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPYPmXETH00
Makes me wonder what might have been

>>3777948
what might have been...

>>3777769
The sonic r engine works because it has relatively small stages that can easily be piped in, there is no way thay engine would work at a suitable scope for a platformer.

>>3777948
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpKNDLIahnE

I just don't get the allure this game has for so many Sonic fans, and normally old beta footage of 3D games are super intriguing to me. But this game looks like shit on the same level as 3D Blast

Is it just that it's classic Sonic?.

Sega should bring back the spin slash

>>3778063
I don't know about others, but I like to imagine what it would have been like if it had come out and if it had been a _good_ game.

>>3777982
Dear god what is this fan art abomination?
>boobowski
Whaaaat

>>3778085
>>3777982
Tiara BOOBowski. Is she a cat? Which woodland creature is she? Chris Chan would have cam loads.

>>3778082
It doesn't look like one though, not even a little bit.

>>3778063
It was the missing Saturn killer app (even though the fish eye concept seemed kind of shit, Sega only put a tiny team on the project, and JP/US rivalry meant it was constantly sabotaging itself) so it's interesting to think of what might have been.

Also, it was in that weird transition point where classic Sonic was turning into 3D Adventure Sonic. Sonic was still a mega franchise at this point but his lack of decent games was eroding his public profile.

>>3777982
>>3778098
Would smash

>>3778082
>I like to imagine what it would have been like if it had come out and if it had been a _good_ game.
Its reception probably would have similar to 3D Blast's. Not a bad game, but definitely one filled with strange design decisions and gameplay that doesn't suit Sonic very well.

>>3774852
From what i've seen and played, they weren't working on anything worth playing. Fisheye lense and morphing landscapes make weird and intruiging tech demos. Good games, not so much.

That failure of a tech demo saved us all from a profoundly shitty game, and what sega really needed to do.was put more effort into nihts sequels, and having it's own identity in the marketplace. instead, they had a bunch of the same games psx had, and some meh teir exclusives (to most of us anyway). So they basically shot their own foot off.

2 full fleged nights sequels, and a bigger focus on 2d in non jp markets could have been really simple, and cemented theiir corner of the market.
Considdering the dc was basically a 2d fighting game machine to many people, the saturn could have been a better predicessor to that. But nope. We got the."m-me too giaz!!!" Console where most good games never made it to the us or eu markets.

>>3778101
>if
so, i guess IF a great nany things had been different

Like if sonic team had made it, instead of Sega Transmitted Infections

I guess the idea to have Americans make it was similar to what Sony was doing for its flagship titles. So another scenario would be if this gambit had worked, and they managed to create something timeless on the level of Sony's games

>>3778101 #
>if
so, i guess IF a great many things had been different

Like if sonic team had made it, instead of Sega Transmitted Infections

I guess the idea to have Americans make it was similar to what Sony was doing for its flagship titles. So another scenario would be if this gambit had worked, and they managed to create something timeless on the level of Sony's games

>saturn is a 2d powerhouse
>sonic games are 2d
>could've had some sonic mania tier stuff done
>instead make some weird fisheye 3d shit

What a missed opportunity

>>3778928
2d was on its way out though, and they knew it. They just didn't want to get left behind, which is exactly what happened anyway.

Best timeline is where the Saturn version gets cancelled but SEGA let them finish the PC version and possibly a quick Dreamcast port down the line. Even if it was shit (likely) at least we'd see the scope of the idea.

>>3778971
Could they have gotten away with a 3D sidescroller?

>>3779382
Hmm yeah probably would have worked better than this.

Clearly they were trying to double dip. Stubbornly unwilling to let go of their past success with 2D, while also dabbling in the emerging 3D landscape.

It just smacks of indecisiveness. They should have gone all out in one of the two directions. When you hesitate you fuck up.

>>3779382
>>3779395
Also, why didn't they do this:

>take the faux 3D stuff from Sonic 2 (pic related)
>make it real 3D with stunning graphics and speed
>steal the whole Mario Kart-style gameplay, but with the Sonic universe (rings to collect, shields, Green Hill Zone-themed levels, dank music, etc.)
>add 2-player / 4-player mode
>call it Sonic Racing
>do so before Nintendo releases his Nintendo 64
>get a ton of shekels

Then do the same with a top-class Sonic 3D fighting game (even better than Virtua Fighter), etc. Milk the fuck out of Sanic instead of leaving the masses waiting for games.

>>3775251
>I never understood why Sega's CS division didn't make the Saturn a 3D-capable console when their AM division were making stuff like Virtua Fighter and Daytona on the arcades.

Those were extremely expensive and used a huge amount of custom chips and DSPs working in tandem.

Virtua Racing started out as an internal experiment at 3d that got so popular they decided to release it. They were already working on the Saturn by 1993 when later Model 1 games conquered the arcades.

Pride was also a factor. Model 1-2-3 used American made hardware they adapted. Saturn was based on System 32, which was their own work. They pushed away the N64 chip with a bunch of bullshit excuses too.

That, and the Saturn hardware was made in a way so all of their previous arcade and console hits could be easily ported to it. It had the same bullshit modes like extensive shadowing support instead of proper transparency.

>>3775656
>Doubt it would've made much of a difference. The Saturn was launched on the same month as the PS1, so they already had the hardware finished by that point.

He meant in the USA. Saturn was selling incredibly good in Japan, so SOJ told SOA to ditch their entire lineup and release the Saturn immediately. This meant launching an extremely small amount of units, for a high price, with few new games for months, and letting the Megadrive and 32x die off.

Having too few units to launch meant that they could only ship to a few stores, and the ones who were left out thought that Sega was dealing to others behind their back. So as revenge for being left out, they stopped carrying all Sega hardware permanently. This is what killed the Saturn in the USA - retailers did not carry units, so there was no place to buy them from.

>>3778506
>From what i've seen and played, they weren't working on anything worth playing.

They were too busy building 3d engines from scratch, then being told to use a different engine and restarting all work from scratch. They never had a chance to implement "gameplay".

>>3779426
Yeah, I was thinking of something along these lines. Sonic games' trademark is the speed of gameplay. Something which was largely lost in Sonic Adventure, as it became mostly a slow-to-play exploration-type platformer. I think they tried to capture a little bit of that here, with the shape-shifting landscapes. This could have worked better with entire environments changing inception-style as the character flies through them, as opposed to just thin snake-like runways. More immersive, less-rectilinear landscapes were possible, as evidenced by NiGHTS, the Sonic Adventure prototype for Saturn and many other games. The orthogonal environments were probably more of a throwback to 2D Sonic. This just doesn't seem to work in 3D.

>>3779426
>Then do the same with a top-class Sonic 3D fighting game (even better than Virtua Fighter)
Not better than VF, though.

>>3779514
>play tug of war with direction of multi-million dollar property
>ruin multi-million dollar property
happens all the time

>>3779514
>play tug of war over direction of multi-million dollar property
>ruin multi-million dollar property
happens all the time

>>3779508
Interesting. I grew up near New York city in Connecticut and never saw Saturn's as a kid or later on Craigslist (from people who weren't collectors).

I'm in northern Colorado now and there are loads here. Lots and lots of game gears too. That said, I got my Saturn from a guy here who bought it in NYC when it came out.

>>3779508
I got a Saturn as a gift in 1998-1999 and it was already impossible to find any games.

>>3775108
It's called 'Space Queens' and was composed for the game. It's very excellent and perfectly in keeping with Sonic's style up to that point.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPYPmXETH00

According to some reports sega executives were furious that a western composer could 'do' their style arguably better than their own sound teams. It might have been a contributing factor the game's cancellation; to avoid 'embarrassment'.
That's a sega attitude if ever there was one.

Is this the greatest blunder in gaming history?

>>3779847
I vividly remember being in a Toys R Us in 1997 where there was a big sign hanging from the ceiling advertising its low price of $199

>>3779948
>pride comes before the fall
It seems that they had to try real hard to unseat themselves from the top of the video game industry
>make very expensive system
>release it too early so marketing can't keep up
>destroy flagship title
That takes effort

>>3779948
Lol sounds like our new president.

I dunno what music production/game composition was like in the mid 90's but I could fart out tracks like this with ease

>>3779948
They sure as hell couldn't 'do' anything else right. Glad Yuji Naka nuked them from orbit.

>>3779382
That would've been the best thing they could've done to Sonic, if they really wanted to make the game 3d. Something like Pandemonium or so.

>>3779991
>I dunno what music production/game composition was like in the mid 90's but I could fart out tracks like this with ease

Well for starters you could probably not afford the gear required to do this quality music.

>>3780015
>Then, in April, Bernie Stolar approached the STI team and inquired of Wallis what he could do to help the game meet its deadline. Wallis suggested that the game engine from Sonic Team's Nights into Dreams... would be helpful. Stolar agreed and acquired the engine. However, the engine's creator and lead programmer of the original Mega Drive Sonic games, Yuji Naka, reportedly threatened to leave the company if it was used.[4][8] STI lost two weeks of development time from the loss of the Nights engine.[1] A playable demo of the game was displayed at the May 1996 Electronic Entertainment Expo.[9]

>Senn and Alon had initially continued on with their game engine, undeterred by their work's original rejection, hoping to pitch it to Sega's PC division. However, it was eventually rejected again, prompting Alon to leave Sega.[4][6][8] No part of the STI team worked in unity during development.

>"We had artists doing art for levels that hadn't even been concepted out. We had programmers waiting and waiting and waiting until every minute detail had been concepted out, and we had designers doing whatever the hell they wanted. It was a mess, and because of the internal politics, it was even more difficult to get any work done."[1]
>—Executive Producer Mike Wallis

>By August, Chris Senn had become so ill that he was told he had six months to live—though Senn would survive this ordeal—and Chris Coffin came down with a severe case of pneumonia. With both Senn's team and Coffin's team crippled, Wallis was left with an incomplete X-treme and only two months before its deadline. At this point, he made the decision to cancel the game.[4] Although Sega initially stated that X-treme had merely been delayed,[10] the project was cancelled in early 1997.[8]

>>3774873
Ew. No.
Thank god this wasn't released. Sega can't do anything right.

>>3774873
lol it's basically kula world with sonic instead of kula

>>3780016
>you could probably not afford the gear required to do this quality music

Back then, yeah.

Now you can do neat, professional, polished music (better than that) with a random computer + freeware only.

>>3774873
Sure, that looks like shit, but check this out:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6IOd0mQ-uXE

There's no guarantee that this would've been a good game, but there was definitely some cool stuff in it.

>>3780039

>>3779523
It's pretty cool, but it still seems a bit sparse. I don't know, maybe the finished version wouldn't have felt so... sterile. Just compare that to Crash or Spyro. Or any other game for that generation of consoles with a fully realized environment. Everything being so angular and geometric and simple makes it feel like a lesser game not worthy of the mantle "flagship title".

>>3774852
No it would've just bombed and be put on a bunch of top 10 worst Sonic game videos years later.

>>3780074
The concept of "worst sonic games" did not exist back then. It couldn't even be conceived. Sonic games were good.

>>3780082
I personally thought Sonic Spinball was not the best Sonic game ever. Certainly aesthetically. Years before I learned STI was responsible for it, I had this uncanny feeling that it had been farmed out to some third party developer.

>>3780026
All i can read is that 'Chris Senn was told he had six months to live and changed his name to Chris Coffin'.

>>3780120
kek

>>3775108
This looks good and fun.

>>3774873
This looks like absolute shit.

>>3780082
>years later


lrn2read

>>3780047
you sure can't.

>>3780172
Yes you can, if you're experienced and have good monitors.

Free plugins can sound excellent today (TyrellN6, Molot, OBXD, IVGI...) and it's possible to make great tunes just with Reaper or even GarageBand.

>>3780026
Was there any reason why Yuji Naka react that way?

>>3781959
Some second-rate designers are given control of your brainchild, fuck it up, and then ask you to help save their asses. You'd have reacted the same way.

>>3781952
The real question is, do you think you would you have been able to capture the Sonic feel as well.

>>3781952
The real question is, do you think you would have been able to capture the Sonic feel as well.

>>3780086
The biggest issue eith the game for me is how laggy it feels, the physics and animation feel really slow and unresponsive. I think they used a c compiler instead of building it through assemnly like the other sonic games, so it feels badly optimized.

>>3781964
Did they ever ask for his permission? Many fansites and blogs tend to vilify Yuji Naka on many things.

>>3782068
Yes, they did and even obtained it. But it wasn't up to Naka, which made him furious. So he threatened to leave.

You could argue that in doing so he helped to kill his own baby. But he's still the creator of the franchise. There would be no Sonic without him.

>>3782061
That's still no excuse, Ecco was build in C and still manages to run smoothly.

>>3775108
The issue is that this just doesn't look all that polished or fun, even if it was still in development, and I feel like it never would've been able to compare to something like Mario 64.

>>3782262
If only they hadn't made Sonic Team work on NiGHTS instead of this. Who remembers NiGHTS today? Some people I guess, but not that many.

>>3782267
>Who remembers NiGHTS today?

Several people. There are NiGHTS cameos in the modern Sonic games. It's not obscure.

>>3782267
Is this what a Sonic Team Sonic game for Saturn might have looked like?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MgsWlG7kzZQ

>>3782289
The end of that reminds me of parts of Sonic Adventure. Sonic Adventure was originally going to be a Saturn game.

>>3782289
That looks horrible. Unplayable bad.

>>3782293
Keep in mind this was just a little vignette they bundled with Nights. We will never know what such a game would have been like.

>>3782287
>>several people

LOL

>>3782287
>Several people

>>3782293
If they just made the entire game like that bossfight, it would've been okay.

>>3782776
Someone in the thread said all this happened because they kept being told to use different engines. Yeah they got told that because the fisheye shit was crap and anyone with half a brain could see it. What really sank them was Senn's stubbornness. He kept working on the fisheye shit in secret even after being told to use the bossfight engine throughout the game.

This story would make a good video game docudrama

>>3783054
That's Christmas Nights, not Sonic Extreme.

>>3783332
See >>3780026

>>3783339
STI working on the Nights engine wouldn't have looked like that, since it would have been a different team using different art to make a different game.

fucking Sonic Adventure and Burning Rangers used the Nights engine as well.

>>3783332
Oh wait. He's talking about the boss fight in Christmas Nights. I was talking about the boss fight engine from X-treme itself. Yeah either one would have been better.

>>3783353
Yes, I corrected myself >>3783356