/vr/ - Retro Games

>>3773879
6 is good but its not the cultural phenomenom that 7 was.

>>3773879
its cause FFVII aged like milk and the people who are getting into FFVI now full well know Its gonna be different to the 3d games, so the expectations are different.

FF7 fan-guilt in action

>>3773879
6 fans are tryhards who vote on shit

Here's a theory, a Game Theory: FFVI is more popular because it has strong bad-ass female protagonists while VII stars a crazy beta and two insecure females (one of which dress fetishistically).

At least I've noticed FFVI fans tend to be Hillary/Bernie-voters: i.e., anime XD gamr gurls, nu-male hipster contrarians, bronies, epic youtube users, SJWs, etc.

I know this sounds crazy and I'm probably crazy. But this is a place where one can post Game Theories

>>3774014
It's not more popular at all

True patricians choose Final Fantasy Tactics.

>>3774020
As the most overrated game? I agree.

>>3774014
7 is more popular.

Its just hipster mentality to "like" anything before 7, mainly using 6&4.

I personally liked 5 more but 7 is by far THE Final Fantasy game.

FF6 fans are the manlets of the FF fanbase. They can't talk about their game without inevitably comparing it to 7 and listing all the reasons they like it better. They are so insecure about their game always being ranked number 2 that you can't have a discussion about 7 OR 6 without them making it a competition.

>FF7 Thread: i really liked the materia system. what do you guys think?
>>i think here is my list of 48 reasons that Kefka is better than Sephigay

>>3773879
>>3773879
>cultural phenomenon

The memes we live by . . .

People call 6 better than 7 until they have played them both. Unless they played 6 first.

>>3774024
>7 is more popular
More well-known, yes, but more popular? Nah, I'd say VI gets a lot more acclaim and positive buzz recently.

>>3774036
>cultural phenomenon
Yeah? So? You could say big band music was a cultural phenomenon in the 1930s but that doesn't mean that music is better or even more popular than something out today.

>>3773879
I feel the two games would have been better if they swapped positions in the timeline; Cloud and co. as the 16-bit dieselpunk SNES capstone, and the sometimes humorous and motley cast of VI feeling more at home with primitive chibi models and a more fleshed out score.

>>3774029

There are a lot of silly things about FF6 fans' behaviour, but this is the worst. They spend far more time talking about 7 than they do about 6. And it doesn't help matters that most of their criticism of 7 are either factually incorrect, or could apply to 6 as well.

I think FF6 vs FF7 is one of those really lop-sided rivalries that only one of the two parties really cares about. It's like the rivalry between the English and the Scots, or between the US and Canada. The little guy takes it very seriously and the bad guy treats it as either a joke or a minor annoyance.

>>3773879
While I do think 6 is a little better than 7, and I love both games, I can almost guarantee that a good chunk of the people voting in these polls haven't played either of them.

It's like the original TMNT comic. If everyone who claims to have read it back in the day actually had, it would have been the comic book equivalent of the Beatles.

Many people these days bash games without playing them and put games on a pedestal that they know only by reputation. So, in a way FF7 is both unfairly overrated and unfairly maligned.

This is a side effect of video games becoming mainstream. You've seen it in movies and books for some time. How many people say that Citizen Cane is the greatest film of all time without ever seeing it? And how may speak of how scary Lovecraft is without ever turning a page?

Why form your own opinions when youtube can do it for you? Whether we love or hate Sonic the Hedgehog games is no longer a matter of quality or personal taste, but whether I we prefer to watch YouTuber A or TouTuber B. I like JonTron, but I don't have to synchronize my opinions with his.

We live in the age of opinion parrots.

>>3774075
I meant "Citizen Kane," not "Cane"

>>3774071

*big guy

I have a theory that if FFVII had come out on the N64 and it had sold less than a million copies outside of Japan, no one would care about FFVI. All those VI fans would be VII fans instead.

>>3774083
Squaresoft wouldn't even be making games anymore if FF7 wasn't big

>>3773898
>aged
There's that meme again!

>>3774254
>reality is a meme

>>3774029
Funny enough they're both shit gameplaywise with the "every character is equal" thing that every FF loves to do.

At least FFVI has that Brave New World mod that adds a layer of strategy to the game. VI also is better storywise, but neither are THAT great anyway.

>>3773879
here's what happens

people say FF7 is the most overrated and also hear that FF6 is the best FF from all the cool kids on the forums so clearly FF6 must be better than FF7

it's the same reason people like RE2 over RE1 and 3, the same reason why people like silent hill 2 over 1 and 3, the same reason why people like star ocean 3 over 1 and 2

if you don't share the opinions with the cool kids you're not a cool kid

>>3774047
>Recently
Because FF7 Remake buzz and that gets people to get into the 6 bandwagon again.

FF7 singlehandlely made Sony and RPGs mainstream.

>>3774313
It is a meme though, if you dont like old school games no game will age well.

>>3774395

I think sometimes the "contrarian opinon" becomes popular by virtue of being different, but by becoming popular it evolves into the new "mainstream opinion."

Granted, I've not played enough of either game to make an informed judgment, but for all the hooplah around 7 that I've seen in my life, I find it hard to believe that it would (supposedly) regularly lose in a poll against pretty much any other JRPG.

>tfw you will probably live to see the day that OoT regularly loses to AoL in a "Best Zelda" poll by virtue of the mainstreaming of a contrarian opinion

>>3774440
>>3774395

You can never get a detailed explanation of "why" X game is better than Y game from these peope. It's one of the reasons why these polls are a waste of time. Its purely a popularity contest. I think that factors into it, people hate being on the wrong side. If FF6 is winning, people are more likely to vote for it to feel validated.

Tried to play the older final fantasies, couldn't get into an.

Grew up watching my younger brother playing 7, then older brother playing 10.

Rest seemed objectively shit.

everyone played 7, nobody played 6 therefore nobody who played 6 will shut up about it.

ff7 qas played by much more people i wouldnt say its better but more popular.

7 is just way too good. Tell me the scene where Sephiroth burns down Nibelheim isn't fucking awesome. The visuals are top notch. The music is ominous and scary. Shit is like a badass anime.
6 is GARBAGE
fuck the stupidass clown
fuck the dumb characters no one gives a shit about
fuck sabin suplexing a train
>seriously 6fags need to kill themselves

>>3774040
I played VI after VII, and VII was my first FF.
VI is unconditionally better

>>3773879
I'm hardly a FF fan, but I really don't understand how can people prefer VI or even IV to VII. I've played all three of 'em and I think they're all great games, but 7 just has SO much more to it than 4 and 6 combined in every level.
The only reason that I can think of, is if you simply prefer the 2D style over what 7 has going. Or just have a SHIT taste

>>3773879
>in public polls

That is because all of the negative perception FFVII has due to so many people liking it. So the hardcore internet crowds have never stopped holding a grudge against the game. FFVII has this perception that it was "babies first" Final Fantasy game. It also has this perception of being "overrated" because many people consider it their favorite game of all time or they rate it as one of the best games ever made. The perception among these hardcore elitist that vote in these opinion polls is that FFVII fanbase mostly consists of massive casuals that under normal circumstances wouldn't really like the series. Because of the huge marketing done for FFVII casuals bought into the hype and now glorify the game.

To put it in as simple way as possible, FFVII is the John Cena of video games. So many people will completely disregard the impact the game has had now and simply hate it because of its popularity and success. These same types of people also are likely to say things like Majora's Mask was better than Ocarina of Time.

Now with all of that said. I prefer FFVI and FFVI is my favorite game of all time. Unlike so many however, I'm not going to whine and cry like a little bitch just because FFVII is by far way more popular. I hate this attitude with people that just because something is popular they feel this need to drag a thing or person down simply for the sake of popularity. Sometimes these people are being honest but it is also true that many simply make excuses to appear as if their bias is actually justified criticism. When in actuality something with their mentality just drives them to want to hate on popularity.

I personally like FFVI better. I also like FFVII, but let's be honest here, FFVII has a pretty bad story. It's not like FFVI is some shining example of great storytelling either, but VII is bad in the way that REALLY bad anime are. Also most of the characters are vastly inferior to a handfull of useless ones and basically everyone is a blank slate that doesn't matter until they are high in level where every becomes basically the same. FFVI does have some of the same problems, but not quite as much so as VII did, and it doesn't bother me quite as much.

>>3773879
>implying this isn't the best FF

FFVI is fucking easy. FFV & FFIV are better.

>>3774075
>>3774395
>>3774440
>>3774883

Yeah, it's basically a matter of "Am I fitting in with the hardcore crowd? AM I???". It's perfectly normal from a psychological or social perspective. And I agree that I did the same many years ago. That being said, even if I didn't play games like AoL, FFVI or other "underrated" games back in the day, I still gotta admit that they're good for what they are. Same with stuff like OoT and FFVII, even if I actually did play them back then. Can't say they're objectively the best (same with other games I'm nostalgic about) but they're not as bad as some people make or made them out to be.

FF7 fans were the MLP bronies of the internet way back in the day

Also you dumb faggots go on and on about "people only hate it because it's popular!!!"

Literally nobody hates Back to the Future - so if FF7 was as good as you losers claim, then it'd be as revered as BTTF

FF7 is the Boondock Saints of video games

From my experience I can tell you that FF fans in general are complete retards and I do my best to not be associated with them.

>>3774993
These guys will defend literal garbage like FF1-FF4, so I agree with you on that

>>3774996
>I
>III
>Garbage
Fuck off, please.

>>3774369
>At least FFVI has that Brave New World mod that adds a layer of strategy to the game.
Too bad it also makes the script sound like it's from one of those modern indie RPGs.

>>3774897
Its shit.

>No way to build your characters because they gain skills based only on levels.

Its probably one of the shittiest FFs besides 2.

>>3775031
It's pretty much the same as the original in the last patch. It's a lot better than the edgefest that I saw in some images around the internet.

>>3775053
I liked that, though. It tied the story and character progression to the gameplay, where the development of the characters made sense in relation to the plot. E.g. characters having learned new abilities tied to where they were when they rejoined the party, learning abilities at instrumental points in the story.

>>3775013
Don't reply to trolls, man. This ain't /v/.

People have a more negative impression of VII because of the Compilation stuff.

>>3773891
>implying both aren't overrated

>>3774419
>singlehandlely
Almost every normie I know nostalgic about PS1 thinks of Crash Bandicoot, Gran Turismo or Tony Hawk, and never FF7

>>3775136
Thats the problem with FF 4, it revolves around story with complete disregard for gameplay.

There are many reasons to replay FF games except 4 and 2.

>>3775173
They are but at least FF 7 has the excuse of historically being the most influential FF.

>>3775184
Seems like your friends missed THE game.

>>3775228
>THE game
Baldur's Gate?

>>3775228
>They are but at least FF 7 has the excuse of historically being the most influential FF.
How?

Honestly, I don't think FF6 was that much different from FF7. The last "traditional" Final Fantasy game was FF5.

>>3775262
Babby's first JRPG.

>>3773879
FFVI is the better game, better characters, better story, better music, better everything

>>3775318
FFVII is the better game, better characters, better story, better music, better everything

FF6 is superior under certain aspects, but FF7 is superior as a whole package.

I prefer FF7.

>disclaimer: I have not played these two games since the 90s

>>3773898
>le aged like le milk

>>>/v/

>>3773879
This is a fault eecent phenomenon.

2000s, everyone sucked 7's cock.

2010s, everyone sucks 6's cock.

I like both, but the bandwagon will never remain with one game. My prediction is we'll see either 4 or 9 become the next bandwagon. They're both good, while still being entry level so normies can play them.

1 and 5 are my personal favorites but since they're a 2/10 in difficulty as opposed to a 1/10 like most FF games are, normies won't flock to them.

>>3773879
viii is better than both, ain't gonna argue with you autists so don't even try.

>>3775443
*fairly recent phenomenon

>>3775228
>with complete disregard for gameplay.
But it doesn't. Even if you're disregarding ATB despite FFIV being one of the very few FFs to use the system correctly, FFIV has way more complex boss fights than prior games, an MP system that isn't total shit like II's, and more intricate enemies in general.

>>3775538
The enemies are unique before they are balanced towards only one way of playing, the other games allows you to find multiple ways to defeat your enemies because of the character progression they offer the player to play with.

You are basically playing like everyone else does.

>>3775557
Not really. FFI and III were pretty clearly balanced around one style of party and you had to make up for what you were lacking with something else. FFIII's customization is kind of bunk, anyways, because it leads to some combination of sages and ninjas in the end with nothing you did before that point mattering and in the interim, a bunch of upgrade classes building off of the few classes that weren't shit. Then there's stuff like Garuda, where there's only one realistic way of dealing with it.

FFV is the one that actually did what you're talking about and it had enemies more complex than IV's. It's why it's hands down the best game in the series.

>>3774395
This, although I've always heard Star Ocean 2 being the actual best of the series and 3 being when the series jumped the proverbial shark, a better example would have been MGS3 over 1 and 2.

>>3774024
Nah the real hipster mentality is liking 8 and saying the low-functioning autist main character is the most relatable in the series to date.

>>3773879
Not always the case. These days, you get more le epic retrooooo cred for picking the SNES game over that horrid PSX game.

Never underestimate the power of retarded fads.

>>3775053
Still better than "you only gain skills based on what clothes you wear" bullshit from 9.

>>3773879
FF7 was and still is shit.
Best rpg players favored Panzer Dragoon Saga instead of the emo hipster pile of shit known as FF7.

The OFFICIAL Final Fantasy Tier List

>God Tier:
7

>Good Tier:
6


>Allright Tier:
5
4


>Mediocre tier:
12
3
1


>Bad Tier:
8
2

>Shit Tier:
9
10
10-2
13
13-2

>>3776790
>X-2 and the XIII games are shit
I would have called you a storyfag but you even have X and IX down there. I guess you just have shit taste.

>>3776790
>shit tier
>9

hot opinions there

>>3775065
Nah, I'm playing the latest release and it still has way too many needless references in it. I heard that it was fixed too, but the script still feels like a mess. Even if they removed any excessive swearing they might've included previously, it's still heavily edited compared to the original, and not in a good way. The readme claims that it's closer to the original Japanese script, but that sounds just an excuse since the things they've added are much worse than whatever Woolseyisms you can think of.

>>3775228
>with FF 4, it revolves around story with complete disregard for gameplay.

yeah, it only introduced the battle system that would be used in five more mainline games
complete disregard, sure
and 2 is probably the most customizable FF to date, certainly more than fucking 1

6 is fun with a great atmosphere, and appropriate amount of goofy shit sprinkled in with some dark feelsy moments, and a large cast that each has a unique skill, but can still be molded however you like thanks to the esper/magic system. Lots of hidden shit, powerful item/relic combos, and great music.

I don't understand why it gets so much hate.

>>3776849
I just hate when they alter pieces of the main script. If it's not your first time playing through the game then seeing some throwaway dialogue replaced with some dank memes can be entertaining but it's when they touch the main script and try to make it """"deep"""" is when things just go south.

>>3774462

I'm old, 36, and played all the American FF games in order.

VI is legit the best one. VII isn't even the best on PS1. It was just really popular because of FMV and brought FF to the mainstream because of its ad budget.

Fuck, there's part of me that even thinks IV is better than VII.

>>3776984
I'm young, 32, and played all the American FF games in order.

VII is legit the best one. VI isn't even the best on SNES. It was just really popular because of anti-7 contrarianism and brought earlier FF titles to the mainstream because of its "nerd status."

Fuck, there's a part of me that even thinks IV is better than VI.

Memes aside, every word I just posted is true.

>>3777018
I could have posted the exact same post. Even the age is correct. Bravo.

The anti-7 contrarianism is a meme from 1997 that needs to die.

>>3776984
You'd have been 20 when FF7 came out. With 6, you were still a kid in school and vidya was probably a much bigger part of your life. At 20 you're in school or working, and everything you play is going to seem blander in comparison to those shining moments when you were younger.

>>3777018
>>3777028
Whereas these guys were teenagers for 7 and had the ability to truly appreciate the game in their youths without adult cynicism weighing them down.

Memes aside, the only other FF game that comes close to having Final Fantasy VII's huge scope is Final Fantasy XV. I can't even begin to imagine what VII's remake would feel like.

>>3777028
So basically you're saying one isn't allowed not to like something.

>>3777041

No, check your math. I was a junior in hs when ff7 came out so i must have been 16 or 17. that's primo nostalgia time too. Was in 8th grade for ffvi.

There was only a 3 year span between 6 and 7.

>>3777018

I don't really care about people who like 7 more and that's fine. I never said it was a bad game but rather at the time it did not deliver an experience that was better than 6. This is only from my perspective as someone who played them back in the day.

There was no ff7 contraianism or whatever conspiracy you're making up about my post.

It's an okay game but back in the day it underwhelmed me. Maybe it was the switch to 3D. Who knows.

I really don't care all that much and it seems like you're being awfully defensive about a video game. I mean, who cares.

>>3777041
can confirm. I'm 33 now and 14 when i played it summer of 1997. The game blew me away... AND i had also played 6 prior to 7.
FFVII was groundbreaking and the story elements (to a 14 year old kid anyway) was treading new ground i was not accustomed to in video games or any other form of media.
And it wasnt just that, the polygon style for the overworld was charming while the fight graphics were fucking intense for those epic fights.
Shit.... i was so autistic about it that i used to draw cloud in a megaman outfit cause i couldnt get that fucking game outta my head.

>>3776982
Yeah, I agree with you, and I wouldn't mind if it was a joke here and there either, but the script is just a mess of different things now.

In your picture the only important bit that they add from the Japanese compared to the Woolsey translation is the part about Gestahl wanting to have Celes and Kefka produce offspring/be the forebears for his magical empire, but they word it the most awkward way possible, making it sound like she's supposed to be Kefka's fucktoy. Meanwhile, Leo doesn't get mentioned at all, and Celes' final line is also plain wrong.

I think even the old translation made Gestahl's magical eugenics program obvious enough anyway. I'm sure someone could argue that I'm being too prudish though. I compared the text on your picture to the script I found here:

http://www2u.biglobe.ne.jp/~Figaro/menu/scenario/no28-j.htm

>>3777057
Huh? No. It's just that the whole
>FF6 is better and I'm part of the super secret club who knows it lol
meme is very old now.

one of the things that irked me about ff7 is how boring it gets once you get out of midgar. initially they clearly planned the city to be the main location of the game, thats why you get the wireframe animation of the city structure in the beginning. after you leave midgar it loses a lot of its initial drive.

it would probably be way cooler if most/all of ff7 happened in midgar, like a cyberpunk thing maybe

>>3773879
Final Fanatsy VII is indeed overrated imao. The story is not a good story compared to other jrpg of the same area : a twist implying a schizophrenic amnesic hero, a death supposed to make you cry, all is completely artificial and recycled from previous games. Secondly the rpg mechanics are made irellevant with the concept of materia.
I don't say it's a bad game, but it's definetly overrated, FF6 and FF4 are far more important to me.

>>3777309
Which previous games had a schizophrenic hero?

>>3773902
This

>>3775264
with train of thought, the only "traditional" final fantasys would be 1, 3, and 5

>>3777343
He wasn't schizo, he suffered PTSD.

>>3775569
>this
FFV is by far the most patrician choice
1 started it all, but most games after it offer the same experience and more
2 is interesting but unrefined, you'd be better off playing either 5 or SaGa
3 is bland and unbalanced. Customization is pretty much a lie since everyone and their grandmothers will end up with the same party
4 was the first one to have interesting characters, and holds the bar as the second best 2d FF, but it was nowhere near as refined as 5, and you need to play the ds remake if you want good storytelling
5 had an interesting and(although not entirely) balanced class system, where even unoptimal choices were viable, without taking away from difficulty
6 had gorgeous pixelart, good dungeon design, and great characters, but the soundtrack wasn't as immersive, the esper system was too unlimited, rage hunting is a pain, many characters were outright useless outside of very specific builds(and even then subpar)
7 was good, but the materia system suffers from the same problems the esper system in 6 does, and most characters are as bland as 8's characters
8 was pretty but had level scaling issues. While being easy offered faster storytelling, it didn't work like chrono trigger because of cd loadtimes and obscene encounter rate.
9 was as balanced as a doujin fighter
10 onwards was "hold ^ and press X ocasionally"

>>3779092
btw, any tactics is just a worse ogre battle/bahamut lagoon

>>3776768

Can you actually name what is "emo" about FF7 outside of "this protag has some internal baggage that he sorts out by the end of the game, what a FAGGOT"?

IX was the best FF you mother fuckers

>>3779120
>that he sorts out by the end of the game
hahahahahhahahhahahhahahaha
>>3779168
May be a contender for best looking, but it is a complete mess outside of visuals.

>>3776790
Other than 8 and 10 both being misplaced (they're really Allright Tier), correct.

I just replayed FFVI and it wasn't that great. You have more fun and replay value with FFVII and FFVIII

>>3779281
>FFVIII

>>3779168
Nah.

Its good but its one of the worst playable PS1 games and i hated the character style of it.

>>3779308
FF8 is replayable as fuck and its character building system makes 6 feel like a joke.

And its not only because its old because FFV system is god tier.

>>3779372
Yeah bro drawing magic is clearly the best mechanic ever made and not at all hated even by fans of the game.

>>3775601
>and saying the low-functioning autist main character is the most relatable in the series to date.

No it's pulling up horrible fan theories that have been debunked numerous times as evidence for why it has the deepest plot in the series.

>>3779638
Drawing Magic > FF6 AP Farming

I'd rather sit there for 10 minutes drawing to 100 off an enemy, then spend two hours running around and killing a hundred enemies to get Drain on one character from Ifrit. Plus, the Magic I draw on 8 goes toward raising stats and can be refined into other, better magics. In 6, most spells are garbage and you're just acquiring them for completion.

>>3776768
>>3779203
Nice bait. Clearly you've never played FFVII. Cloud isn't emo in the least in FF7. He's understandably fucked up and enters a very justified existential crisis during the game but he gets over with and becomes his own person. He's definitely one of the best examples of character development in a Final Fantasy game and one of the better protagonists. The "emo" persona he has was never his to begin with. Anyone who says that Cloud is emo only played the game when they were kids and have had their perception of his character muddied by shit like Kingdom Hearts and Advent Children. Advent Children completely tacks on feelings of regret and sadness to Cloud for no reason.

I really wish this meme would die already. Even if you want to equate emo with "faggy" then the most emo game is Crisis Core.

>>3773898
So does that mean FFVI aged like yoghurt or something? You need to be pretty retarded to say 6 aged better than 7. I love both games though, not hating.

>>3781019
>You need to be pretty retarded to say 6 aged better than 7.
Not him but good 2D spritework just lives on. Look at stuff like Valkyrie Profile and Suikoden II and compare it to FFVII and their 3D counterparts at the time.

>>3780838
To be honest Terra is the most emo character between Final Fantasy VI and VII. Her character is constantly angsty and depressed and she has no moments of levity. Compare that to Cloud, who often jokes with the team.

No, really, look at the two characters and their spoken lines within the games. If you do this then you will see that what I said cannot be denied.

>>3781162
Too bad most people know Cloud by the shitty movie and Kingdom Hearts.

>>3777057
This is the stupidest fucking counter-argument.

No one is saying that you're not allowed to dislike something. The point is WHY you dislike it. 99.99999% of people who dislike Final Fantasy VII only dislike it because it's popular and not for anything on its own merits.

>>3779203
Cloud isn't emo at all in FF7. play the game that you're blindly criticizing.

>>3781414
Again you're just saying one isn't allowed not to like something. Wow.

>>>/v/

Take your fanboy nonsense back there where it belongs along with your unnecessary hostile attitude.

>>3781423
I honestly don't understand how you can have such a horrible misunderstanding of what I'm saying.

People are obviously fucking allowed to dislike FF7, but if you ever actually have a conversation with someone who does, their reason boils down to hating its fan-base and thinking that it's overrated.


Honestly, if anything, in 2017, Final Fantasy VII is the definition of an underrated game. The pendulum of opinion on this game has swung so far in the opposite direction that the internet gaming community generally doesn't give it nearly enough credit.

>>3781463
Sigh... Why are you still responding?!

>>3781467
awesome counterargument man

>>3781473
He's still talking! Why is he still talking?!

>>3779372
>>3779638
>>3780263
>>3780658
>>3780838
Can you all believe this loser?! Like hello get a life man jeez.

>>3781475
Dude grow up. If you don't have anything of substance to respond with, then just don't.

>>3781467
>>3781475
Maybe it's time for you to stop responding, because you literally aren't saying anything anymore.

>>3774883
>These same types of people also are likely to say things like Majora's Mask was better than Ocarina of Time.
But Majora's Mask was better than Ocarina of Time.

>>3774419
>if you dont like old school games no game will age well.

nostalgia is a hell of a drug

>>3781512
In some ways, yeah. The characters were a lot more fleshed out and Termina itself felt more "alive", but the scale of OoT and the "epicness" of the story has its own appeal that MM doesn't quite have.

Both are phenomenal games.