/vr/ - Retro Games

>>3718841
Sega screwed up three generations in a row and it was outclassed by the other systems in terms of backing, anti piracy measures, and exclusives

>>3718841
b-but remember how revolutionary it was!
e-everybody still love arcade ports, right?!

Dreamcast arguably contained the best GPU on the market until the release of GeForce 256.

It was very ahead of its time.

PowerVR 2 with its tile based deferred rendering was genius.

>>3718841
It came out a year and a half before the PS2.

How does a tiny cuboid object with controller ports look anything like a washing machine

Yeah it's not the best controller. But it's not terrible. Two analogue sticks wasn't standard yet; the PS1 controller with dual analogue sticks came out about a year before the Dreamcast and pretty much fuck all actually used two sticks.

How do you know that it couldn't handle those games? They never came out on it. That's like saying the N64 couldn't handle Metal Gear Solid, it's pulling facts out of your ass and speculating.

>>3718870
This, it still amazes me even today how well the 3D looks like in relation to the PS2 and others of that gen. You can say it's an own gen in between.
Too bad not that many really games are out there except lazy Windows PC ports and the hundred remade arcade port. Anyway it's still a nice console for those games which were exclusive.

>>3718907
In some ways it's a bit of a coincidence. The PS2 and Dreamcast hardware are diametrically opposed.

The whole point of tile based deferred rendering is to automatically eliminate overdraw by very carefully drawing high quality pixels. PS2's hardware on the other hand is designed to overdraw as much as possible by shitting out low quality pixels meant to be blended together to form high quality pixels.

Even though the PS2 ultimately has more raw power, it's stupidly difficult to use, while the Dreamcast is comparatively easy as piss (even transparencies are automatically sorted) and not THAT much worse.

>>3718841
Image a world where Halo was released as the Dreamcast's killer app, and the system stayed competitive until the mid-2000s with titles that would've have normally been for the Xbox.

>>3718939
>with titles that would've have normally been for the Xbox.
Wow, it's fucking nothing.

>>3718942
There were a ton of great games for the Xbox. Many of them made by Sega.

>>3718841
The shit you mentioned are not the reason DC failed.
It was because of Sega going cheap on the console and not making it have DVD, plus because of the marketing 32x and Saturn had only Sega fans really wanted go get Dreamcast. All of Sega consoles were doing great in Japan, it's just Americans having shit taste like usual

>spec-wise the worst of the 6ht generation
Because it was released more then a year early? Plus it was the smallest console that gen

>look like a washing machine
Personal opinion, doesn't mean console is bad. For me it looks good, I also liked fat PS2 looks
>terrible joypad
It was just as good as Saturn 3D pad but sadly had bad d-pad

>bad at 3D
How so? Most games looked better then early PS2 titles and DC could render games at higher resolution through VGA.

>bad at 2D
You are just making shit up at this point, one company not optimizing one game doesn't mean the console is bad at something

>>3718906
>That's like saying the N64 couldn't handle Metal Gear Solid, it's pulling facts out of your ass and speculating.

Where the fuck are you planning to put all those voiced cutscenes? You going to ship it on 40 cartridges?

>>3718841
>>bad at 3D
Play under defeat.

>>3718952
Resident Evil managed it, right?

>>3718952
later cartridges could hold more memory, correct?

>>3718959
The N64 had a hard limit of 64MB for cart size iirc (N64DD also could only max out 64MB too). Flash memory was still expensive mind out, even back in 2000.

>>3718841
>bad at 2D (can't handle a SF3 THIRD STRIKE arcade perfect like PS2)

PS2 can't even handle Strikers 1945 II you can't even meme it up properly chump

>>3718841
the QUALITY of this thread is evident why 6th gen shitters willl never be allowed.

>>3718979
It's a shame that garbage like this isn't grounds for a ban.

>this thread

>>3718841
whom are you quoting though?

>>3718964
It's easier to compress voices than video. For that reason MGS is more viable on N64 than Resident Evil 2.

>>3718967
>PS2 can't even handle Strikers 1945 II
It was a lazy port

>>3719013
It can't handle CATSUEY

Other systems are you even trying?

>>3718950
>It was just as good as Saturn 3D pad but sadly had bad d-pad

That's not saying much because the Saturn 3d pad is bulky and uncomfortable. And the DC had a worse d-pad, worse analog, and LESS BUTTONS.

>>3718952
>Where the fuck are you planning to put all those voiced cutscenes? You going to ship it on 40 cartridges?

You mean like the 40 carts they shipped Conker on, to fit in all those voiced cutscenes?

>>3719039
>Saturn 3d pad is bulky and uncomfortable
What the shit you are talking about?
It was the most comfortable controller, perfect for long hour plays while classis saturn for quick fighting/arcade type games.
Also you could just use saturn classic controller even on Dreamcast.
DC controller wasn't that bad as people say, if sega supported DC more then they could have released improved one with second analog and make it more like saturn 3D one.
I really wonder what controller you think comfortable and not "bulky"

>>3719041
true,i think even a baby would like the dc pad but not on this board :]

>veiled 6th gen thread
>low tier bait
Sure it's /v/ here.

>>3718907
>You can say it's an own gen in between.
You can say about all consoles prior to the current PS4/Xbone generation. TurboGrafx 16 was made to compete with the NES, but it ended up being matched against Genesis and Super NES and even the Genesis is a bit behind the Super NES in some aspects due to launching two years ahead. Generation cutoffs are pretty arbitrary anyway.

>>3719103
This

Sega gambled everything on DC and lost. It was actually doing very well despite the piracy but the PS2's reputation, backward compatibility and DVD playback just pushed it out despite costing twice as much and having no progressive scan or online capability out of the box. It was just another. final case of Sega being too forward thinking while its competitors understood the market better.

>>3719126
Arguably the PS1 killed the Dreamcast, not PS2.

Sega marketing people themselves say that. People preferred PS1's games over Dreamcast's games. PS1's far inferior graphics were irrelevant, much like the Wii's worse graphics were irrelevant to the 100 million who bought one.

>>3719126
Sega was already on its way out when the dreamcast was finalized. A decade of bad decisions and infighting got them out of the business in the end, they hoped for a miracle and that obviously wasn't happening. Still a pretty solid console and the library is still bigger than the n64 lmao

>>3719174
The original PlayStation was still going strong even in the early 2000's. Hell, the PS one actually outsold the PS2 in its launch year, despite all the hype for the new console, despite the whole "cheap DVD player" myth that everyone likes to spread nowadays.

People forget that the PS2's launch lineup was pretty abysmal and took them a whole year for it to get worthwhile games like MGS2, DMC and GTA3

>>3719220
>People forget that the PS2's launch lineup was pretty abysmal

That is completely true. It was almost shocking how small the PS2 games section was compared to the DC's at FuncoLand back in 2000 and 2001.

>>3719174
>People preferred PS1's games over Dreamcast's games
What the fuck are you even saying you're comparing sundown games on one console to debut games on a next gen console. Shenmue outsold Vagrant Story.

>>3719184
I agree completely that's more or less what I was saying. They weren't completely fucked but Sega was never a company to swallow its pride. Better to burn out in a blaze of online EDTV glory than to be forced to license shitty telephone apps just to survive.

>>3719231
The system was hard to find and there was hype. It was a spectacular launch even if there were no games.

>>3719282
>Shenmue outsold Vagrant Story.
You're comparing the most expensive retro game ever developed to a literally who Squaresoft game.

The fact is that the mainstream was not interested in Sega's bizarre anime-esque Sonic Adventure games, ports of Sega's arcade games with 15 minutes of gameplay, or Sega's overly quirky Japanese titles.

They wanted cool shit, and only the PS1 could provide it.

>>3719306
Sonic Adventure sold twice as well as Shenmue. You literally don't know what you're talking about.

inb4 Final Fantasy IX's sales having anything to do with what platform it was released on

>>3719317
>Sonic Adventure sold twice as well as Shenmue
Wow, yeah, 2 million in sales truly is huge for a hyped up mascot game. For Sega's Mario 64.

>inb4 Final Fantasy IX's sales having anything to do with what platform it was released on
You've got it backwards. It's appealing games like Final Fantasy IX (among more obvious others) which is why people stayed the hell away from Dreamcast.

>>3718939
Halo could've kept Sega in the game. Remember that it was the title that single-handedly kept the Xbox from being dead on arrival.

>>3719412
A big part of Halo's appeal was "muh graphics".

You wouldn't be able to achieve anything close to Xbox results on the Dreamcast.

>>3719423
If "muh graphics" was all it took, Xbox would've gone the exact same way the Dreamcast did seeing that it took the reigns as the "port machine" after Dreamcast fell.

Halo, for better or worse, revolutionized the FPS genre, a genre that was growing rapidly in popularity at the time. The graphics were just the icing.

>>3719438
>Halo, for better or worse, revolutionized the FPS genre
It didn't revolutionize anything, just popularized a particular style that was only getting traction with the PC crowd at the time. The reason it popularized things was due to being the perfect storm of good graphics, good sound, good split-screen multiplayer, a decent single player campaign and decent controls. It wasn't fantastic in any single area, but it was very well rounded.

A second problem I could see is with the Dreamcast controller. That thing is even less suitable to FPS than the N64 controller.

>>3718845
>screwed up three generations
But Master System was popular in Latin America and Europe, Genesis was hugely popular in USA, and Saturn was a smashing hit in Asia.

>>3719465
>It didn't revolutionize anything
Didn't it revolutionize that filming feature, so you could make replays of your own gameplay?

>>3719485
No. Stunt Island had this feature in 1992.

>>3719465
it had a fantastic skybox

>>3719465
yeah like all those sci fi fps about dual health types and a strong focus on flexibility with on site procurement of weapons and vehicles

>>3719041
>I really wonder what controller you think comfortable and not "bulky"

The regular Saturn one, x360 one.

>>3719584
Tribes
Aliens vs Predator

hardly an exhaustive list

>>3719220
>despite the whole "cheap DVD player" myth that everyone likes to spread nowadays.

oh, I bet you are one of those fags who thinks the PS1 was never called PSX.

You Dreamcast faggots are some weird fucks.

It was a garbage system and that's why it didn't even last a year.

Fuck off with this shit.

>>3719412
>Remember that it was the title that single-handedly kept the Xbox from being dead on arrival.

Xbox would've done equally well without Halo CE. It had the best multiplat games, and normies bought it simply because it was the most powerful system.

Others put a custom dash on it and used it as a divx/dvd player/emulator while still playing xbox games (back in 2004, people did not yet build HTPCs, partially because digital TVs were not yet common).

>>3719595
>didn't even last a year
>'98-'01

>>>/v/

>>3719603
>normies bought it simply because it was the most powerful system.

>normies caring about specs

It was the online capabilities that turned them on to the console. Sure it had some of the best ports, but nobody gave a shit about that. Nobody's going to pay $300+ dollars for a slightly better version of Timesplitters or Just Cause.

You know what people think about when you mention Xbox online? Halo 2.

>>3719594
You could buy DVD players for less than $50 in 2002, the PS2's most successful year.

>>3719606
>normies
>caring about online
approximately 1% of PS2 players used online

>>3719610
>approximately 1% of PS2 players used online

Thanks for the random trivia, but we're talking about Xbox.

You know speaking of cost cutting, I don't understand why SEGA made the MODEM a standard should have just tucked in some plastic piece and be done with it.
Then sell the Modem/Broadband separately for those who wanted it

>>3719438
>Halo, for better or worse, revolutionized the FPS genre

Nah, Halo CE was simply a solid good game. It did not revolutionize anything.

What it had was simply pick up and play controls, and the awesome co-op play, which made it extremely popular for frats. I don't think it even had multiplayer, since xbox live did not yet exist when it came out.

Halo 2 was the one that people considered the system seller, partially because of the gigantic media attention and the xbox live support.

>>3719607
DVD players did not play back PS1 or PS2 games.

>>3719618
In other words, all things that could be made possible with the Dreamcast.

>>3719621
Most people (non-gamers) don't care about that. Whatever's cheaper they'll get.

>>3719607
>Hmm... kid wants this shit console but I just wanted to watch DVD movies... wait, it plays DVD too? I guess I can buy it, so the brat will finally shut up

>>3719606
>It was the online capabilities that turned them on to the console.

Not in 2001 when the system came out. People cared about it because it was the most powerful system. That was its selling point. Every multiplatform or middleware game, it looked the best on Xbox.

Xbox Live did not even exist for a year after launch, and then for a while for games to support it.

A lot of Sega fans also went for the Xbox too, simply because fuck Sony and fuck Nintendo, and the DC already had Windows CE so the Xbox might be just as good.

>>3719627
>Most people (non-gamers) don't care about that. Whatever's cheaper they'll get.

Most non-gamers won't buy any gaming system to begin with, and the cheapest solution would be the $25 Chinese DivX player.

As a kraut I have to say the Dreamcast was even more mismanaged than the Saturn for the EU market.
The Saturn system at least was priced normally nothing out of the ordinary.
You read the magazines hear about the USA launch 199USD wow how lovely.

Then our release comes
Equivalent in German Marks

199USD? NOPE
249 USD? NOPE
299 USD? NOPE
399-500 USD? YUP

What the flying fuck was going on here? It's as if there was no recommended price tag. You go to some store boom 500 USD in some chain it's anything from 399-450 USD.

>>3719590
those are extremely different games compared to halo and each other.

>>3718939
Nothing would have saved DC. Remember, DC had Unreal Tournament WITH kb/m & online play. You really could not get better than that unless what you're trying to say is Halo is better than UT. What killed the DC wasn't library, just PS2's DVD player capability and Sony's hype.

>>3719657
>Sony's hype
This.

>Nah, I'm waiting for the Playstation 2
Literally everyone I tried to spread the gospel of the Dreamcast to.

>>3719657
DC also had a kickass Quake 3 port.

>What killed the DC wasn't library, just PS2's DVD player capability and Sony's hype.

Pretty much, yeah.

You also have to remember that backwards compatibility was a huge thing. Dreamcast was building its library from scratch, and it never had support from names like Square or EA. Even Namco only released like 2 games on it (Tekken was easily one of the most popular PSX games).

PS2 was compatible from the box with thousands of PS1 games and all DVDs. Even with the shit launch lineup, it already could play ten times as many discs as the Dreamcast ever did.

And the Sony brand was at its strongest at the time, it was a few years later when it slowly started becoming a joke. Actually, some of the things on the PS2 contributed to that, like how it only had 2 controller ports, or how it was unreliable as fuck.

>>3719657
what killed the dreamcast was a decade of bad decisions and bad blood between SoJ and SoA, bad investments. The PS2 could have been a flop and Sega would have still ducked out of the race at the same time.

>>3719174
>Arguably the PS1 killed the Dreamcast, not PS2.
>Sega marketing people themselves say that.

Well, no shit. Of course nips would have their own pride so far up their asses they'd resort to blaming the competition for being "too good" rather than admit to their failures.

>>3719220
but... evergrace

>>3719705
It's true. Okawa said himself back in 1999 that the Dreamcast would be Sega's last console. The hardware business was too expensive for them to continue to pursue.

>>3718942
>>3718943
Not really the board for this, but I agree. There were a lot of really solid Xbox titles that got little to no notice.

>>3719792
You can thank Microshit's marketing team for that. As it was presented, it was just Halo: The Console.

>>3719661
Renotr Tnoto?

>>3718841
I still enjoy Power Stone 2 on it.

>>3718967
>amazing original score
>only reason to still play this version over MAME is Elite mode with the reworked enemies
>Total Control Plus lets me use my PS360+ modded stick

Also if you're not playing Dreamcast with a Total Control Plus then you're not doing life right.

>>3719639
I'll never understand how they fucked up the prices for these consoles in PAL regions

>Saturn was $399 USD
>399 GBP
>$800 AUD

>Dreamcast was $199 USD
>200 GBP
>$500 AUD

it's like they just took the american price, stuck a pounds symbol in front of it thinking it would be the same value and then converted from pounds to AUD when pricing them in Australia

>>3720340
Taxes and shipping costs.

>>3719220
that isn't even a bad launch, it has a good game in almost every genre. What was the best /vr/ related launch?

>>3719220
TTT was the bee's knees

>>3718841
Please go back to /v/

>>3719629
Yes, I'm sure they would spend 4 times as much due to a whining kid.

>>3720340
you act as if this kind of pricing is unique to sega

need I remind you that ps1 was 700 aud, ps2 was 750 aud and ps3 was 1000 aud

>>3720554
You underestimate the poor decision making of our generation.

Stop bullying the Dreamcast just because you can't discuss PS2/GBA/GCN/Xbox here, assholes.

>>3720620

This is just a little taste of what's to come if 6th gen is ever allowed here.

See all the Sony shitposting on /v/? they can't wait to start posting yellow face memes here as well.

It had perfect arcade ports, too bad arcades were dying at the time.

Also you could browse the web on it, I don't think you could do that with the other consoles.

>>3718907
Isn't that exactly what the Dreamcast is though, a system stuck somewhere in between 5th and 6th gen?

>>3719174
Like the Saturn, marketing killed the DC. Sega just couldn't (wouldn't)compete with sony on an advertising level.

>>3720649
This in-between generation thing is nonsense. The Dreamcast was released 1 year before the PS2, but 2.5 years after the N64.

It's a lot closer to 6th gen than 5th gen.

>>3719465
Fucking underage GET OUT
Only two weapons, regenerative life/shield..
After Halo EVERY SINGLE SHOOTER!

>>3720340

The one guy I knew who had a Dreamcast bought a grey imported NTSC-U one not because he wanted to be some cool kid or something it was because he saved quite a good amount of cash by doing so.

>>3718841
>GT3

Why would Gran Turismo get a release outside of Playstation?

>>3720276
>only reason to still play this version over MAME is Elite mode with the reworked enemies

Pretty sure the Dreamcast version is not counter stoppable oh and it's got that lovely autofire.

>>3719321
Is he fucking retarded anon?

>>3720938
Halo popularized those mechanics, but didn't invent them.

In fact, Jurassic Park Trespasser also had weapon limits and regenerative health. Of course, it couldn't popularize anything cause the specs were too high for normal computers.

>>3720957
No one cares
Gears of war didn't invent the cover system, but after that..

>>3720957
trespasser wouldn't have popularized it anyway even if more people played it - the game sucked and showed exactly how you don't do those mechanics. Halo did the opposite, it pulled them off well and showed other developers how to implement it well into design and how to make it mechanically enjoyable.

>>3720276
Get on my level play it with this

>>3720254
But anon, Power Stone 2 is better on PSP, why you choose the worst version?

>>3720987
>playing on a tiny low res screen
The PSP version doesn't even add anything of value.

>>3718841
>bad at 3D (can't handle even Onimusha 1, FFX or GT3)
With a small downgrade (mostly GT3 and FFX), it definitely could.

Anyway, DCs graphics were good enough for the 6th generation, games like Test Drive: Le Mans and Soul Calibur (a fucking launch title) still look good today.

>bad at 2D (can't handle a SF3 THIRD STRIKE arcade perfect like PS2)
Yet, its CvsS2 is better than the GCN version and its MvsC2 is better than the Xbox.

>terrible joypad
I have to agree.

>>3720649
Comercially yes, power-wise it's much closer to the PS2, though.

>>3721170
in some ways better than the gamecube too, due to the gc's fuck all support for more advanced rendering techniques.

muh 4MB texture
muh no antialiasing

>>3721181
>due to the gc's fuck all support for more advanced rendering techniques
Nonsense. GameCube can do everything Dreamcast can do and then some (with the exception of order independent alpha, which is a feature exclusive to tile rendering). Dreamcast isn't programmable at the pixel level, so you're not gonna see dynamic per-pixel lighting on that console, unlike GameCube which had per-pixel color combiners.

Also Dreamcast only supports DOT2 bump mapping, GameCube supports DOT3. Dreamcast only supports supersampling, GameCube supports MSAA as well.

S3TC texture compression is less lossy than Dreamcast's VQ compression.

>>3721204
>non evolution version of vf4
you can put this shitpost in the trash along with the non-hardcore japanese launch version of DOA2

>>3718841
>>terrible joypad
>I have to agree.
Am I the only one who thought it was the best yet (at the time) and better than the ps2's joypad?

I honestly think the Dreamcast pad was an evolution of the n64 pad

>>3721227
I like it. I don't find it to be uncomfortable at all.

>>3718952
>Where the fuck are you planning to put all those voiced cutscenes?
If they were desperate to fit the game in a small cartridge they could've easily just remove all the voices and made it text only like the 2D Metal Gears. Or the very least have voices only in cutscenes and mandatory CODEC calls like in Snatcher and Policenauts (which would've been ideal too, since they wouldn't had to bring back the VAs to record N64-specific play instructions and advice).

Mostof MGS's 2 discs was spent on voiced dialogue.

>You going to ship it on 40 cartridges?
Comments like this shows how little you know about how cartridges work.

>>3718841
>nothing better to do than post a bait thread on /vr/
Just fucking kill yourself.

>>3721227
>I honestly think the Dreamcast pad was an evolution of the n64 pad
It was literally a devolution of the Saturn 3D pad.

>>3721219
Goh is only in Evo and final tuned dumbshit

hardware power (overall potential)

Xbox > Wii >> GameCube >>> PS2 > 3DS >> PSP > Dreamcast >>>>>>>>>> N64 >>> Saturn > PS1

>>3721428
Wii has more overall potential than Xbox. PS2 has more overall potential than Gamecube, Dreamcast has more overall potential than PSP. PS1 has more overall potential than Saturn.

>>3719039
the Saturn 3D pad is a bit naff looking, but it's oddly comfy
but yeah, it's a fuckton better than the DC pad for all the reasons you described

>>3719220
>armored core
>dead or alive
>ridge racer
>tekken
>madden

that would be enough to get most people to buy the machine, plus DVD (shit, I bought my PS2 for DVDs back then -- with the bonus feature that it also it played PS1 games)
and within a year, all of the big mega-hits the machine is known for came out

>>3719614
in some regions, they did exactly that (read: places where they didn't really expect people to use online anyway)
but it'd be a poor idea to have done it where you'd expect online play to be the biggest and expect people to buy the device specific modem (remember how no one bothered with PS2 online play?)

also, in '99, 56k was still pretty much the norm

>>3720554
really, that's about how things tended to go

>>3719502
I think you need to look up the definitions of the words "revolution" and "invention"

>>3721308
Imagine a Saturn 3D controller with the vmu slots... Sega even made a prototype when designing the Dreamcast

>>3721438
>PS1 has more overall potential than Saturn.
Not if it's a 2D game (see: any fighting game).

>>3721438
>Wii has more overall potential than Xbox
maybe, they're close

>PS2 has more overall potential than Gamecube
it has more raw processing power, but the gamecube compensates with the features of its superior gpu

>Dreamcast has more overall potential than PSP
the psp is stronger than the dc in almost every category except resolution. the battery autonomy is what held it back

>PS1 has more overall potential than Saturn
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foZUcPQAMvg

saturn has more potential with low-level programming

it also suffer far less from texture warping and texture seaming

I like the Dreamcast because it put some good focus on 2D games which wasn't very common in the 6th gen.

>>3721709
>maybe, they're close
Xbox still has more potential "on paper" due to its two vertex shader and twin-texture pipeline, but it will never even get close to its potential due to memory bottlenecks. Meanwhile, the Wii is much improved over the Gamecube in that department.

>the gamecube compensates with the features of its superior gpu
At most, these features bring them up to par. Using any complex features like pixel-shading has an extremely high fill rate penalty on the Gamecube.

>the psp is stronger than the dc in almost every category
Not at all. Not only does it have less memory bandwidth, but it can't compete with the efficiency of Dreamcast's tile-based deferred rendering. PSP doesn't even support Early-Z. It's very wasteful.

>saturn has more potential with low-level programming
Saturn will always be held back compared to PS1 by lower memory bandwidth and its garbage VDP1 chip. No amount of low-level programming can get around those two issues (not to mention, PS1 can also benefit from low-level programming).

That Shenmue demo only demonstrates high detail characters on low detail backgrounds.

>it also suffer far less from texture warping and texture seaming
Not that the Shenmue video demonstrates that or anything.