/vr/ - Retro Games

>Best class and build
Duel wield Swashbuckler
>waifu
Delicious dark skinned Viconia
>best fight
Yagu-Shura
>music
Opening theme

>>3675629

Viconia is a hot mess and doesn't do your MC, your party or your destiny any good.

>>3675498
> I can dance on the head of a penis well!

>Best <Charname> class and build?
I always liked playing a mage but I'm boring like that.
>Favourite party member?
Jan Jansen. Funny guy, but his story still gave me the feels.
>Waifu?
Aerie. Some people say she's annoying, I find her adorable.
>Most enjoyable fight?
Any of the dragons, Just feels like an accomplishment.
>Most memorable music?
The BG1 title theme.

>>3675629
>Duel wield Swashbuckler
why not just roll a multiclass fighter/thief?

These are my (OPs) choices, by the way

>best <Charname> class and build

I've only ever played as a Bard or a Paladin. Bards are the most interesting to play because of the wide range of approaches they can take to a situation. Paladins on the other hand, simply kick ass (rolled a 97 the other day after only 12 minutes)

>Favourite party member

I actually like Nalia. She has an interesting story and some good banter with Jan and others.

>Waifu

Jaheira. You can marry Aerie off to Haer'Dalis and Viconia will always dump you, whereas J. gets progressively more loveable over (a long) time

>Most enjoyable fight?

I never get tired of kicking the shit out of those armoured dudes in the sewers under Temple district. With practice you can kill them just with Yoshimo, Minsc and Jaheira straight out of Irenicus's dungeon.

>Most memorable music

Aerie's romance theme.

(Did you know Jaheira's romance theme is frequently played in the tv show "Charmed"?)

>>3675498
>Best <Charname> class and build?
F/T for my 'best'. Cavalier for my most fun.
>Favourite party member?
Korgan, hands down.
>Waifu?
Aerie, but all the romancable NPC's are kinda bleh.
>Most enjoyable fight?
Top level of the Iron Throne building (using SCS)
>Most memorable music?
Say sayeth the wise Alaundo.

>>3675797
While it's striclty superior, off the top of my head:
>faster level progression
Getting UAI and pro-traps earlier can be a great boon
>fluff reasons
Swashie brings to mind someone like Inigo Montoya
>dual-classing
Swash/Mage is a cool spin on the Arcane Trickster concept; you lose the ability to do Black Blade of Disaster/Mislead cheese, but gain bonus HP, AC, THAC0 and utility.

I'll only answer
>Best class and build
because I like this game too much and brainstorm everything way too often. I've had fun with classes like Beastmaster (extremely strong in BG1 and not even nearly as bad as is thought in BG2, though not top tier), Jester (if you can micromanage his song properly, he can be a great AoE disturber/support class, and all Bards are great soloists), melee Mage/Sorcerer (basically run your playstyle along polymorphism and self-buffs; you can outstrip fighters sometimes and your I'm A God buttons faciliate the playstyle well), all sorts of Gnomish Illusionist multiclasses (super-high saving throws and a fairly unique charname concept, plus Gnomes can romance Aerie), ranged Assassin (in vanilla, stockpile Darts; 3 attacks per round with Poison active is amazing. in BG2 you can also do Tuigan's bow. You can also go Assassin/Mage solely for abusing poisoned Melf's Minute Meteors).

For now, I guess I'd say non-EE Ranger/Cleric or Blade because of access to both Druid and Cleric spell trees. I like versatility.

>>3675498
>Best <Charname> class and build?
Fighter/illusionist. Simple, yet particularly capable.

>>3675841
>(Did you know Jaheira's romance theme is frequently played in the tv show "Charmed"?)
It's probably stock music that's either public domain or (more likely) part of a commercial stock music package. Stuff like this happens all the time. Basically it means it's not actually 'Baldur's Gate music' they were just using it.

>>3676731

Kinda.

Michael Hoenig did the music for quite a few TV shows and movies as well as games. He's known to have re-used his own pieces for different purposes. Apparently one of the pieces from BG is also used in Dark Skies.

>>3675498
>Le SJW game
>>>/pol/ pls.

>>3675498
>Best <Charname> class and build?
Wouldn't know who's best, but any mage class for me really. First time played through as Conjurer and was fun to summon shit. Nowadays I always go with Wild Mage for memes. Probably gonna try a melee class or Priest at some point, but I dunno. Really hard to let go of muh Fireballs and shiet.

>Favourite party member?
Probably Haer'dalis. I love most of 'em tho.

>Waifu?
Always gone with Viconia, but I dunno. Aerie has kinda grown on me.
Wish I could waifu up with Mazzy tho.

>Most enjoyable fight?
Final fight in Siege of Dragonspear. Thought it was really fun in the highest difficulty.
Most memorable is Irenicus.

>Most memorable music?
Aerie's theme is comfy.

>>3675841
>Paladins on the other hand, simply kick ass (rolled a 97 the other day after only 12 minutes)
That happens because Paladins have a lot of high minimum stats

I'm actually playing this for the first time and it is pretty dope. Went Paladun and put my proficiencies in blunt and long swords. Probably should've thrown one in missiles though.

>>3675498
>Best <Charname> class and build?
Best?
human fighter 6~/cleric x or half-elf fighter/cleric; strong, but not too strong, fits the story, lets you fight/buff/heal without having to fiddle with other mechanics, good for beginners and experts

Not my favorite, however. That would be a CG male elf fighter/mage/thief.

>Favourite party member?
bg1 - kivan
bg2 - korgan
both for rather obvious reasons, i think

>Waifu?
bg1 - jaheira
bg2 - dat nymph sprite HNNNG

>Most enjoyable fight?
bg1 - top floor of iron throne tower
bg2 - slaver's complex in temple district
tob - demogorgon's seal guardians

>Most memorable music?
bg1 - exploring the plains
bg2 - fuck, probably just the credits/character creation

>>3675629
>Duel wield Swashbuckler
currently playing one, having a blast

>>3675797
swashbuckler lets you fight well without having to switch back and forth between leather and plate; just wear the best leather you can get and get to it, also you get more skill points this way

>>3675948
bro

seeing a lot of people liking aerie's theme, which I loved in middle school 15 years ago, but now i find a bit sickly sweet

Kill Yoshimo right where he stands ... fuck him ... I gave him the best stuff, he was so cool, dominating everything ... next time you play, kill him, for me

>>3677007
>SJW game
Maybe now that Beamdog got their grubby little hands on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__6nFM5GER8

>>3677332
As a Pally, put points into 2 handed swords when you get into BG2.

>>3675797
But why not human Swashbuckler/Fighter?

>>3677595
Joke's on you, I just don't put in SoD and use the mod that makes all the shitty NPCs go away. And maybe a UI mod.

Suddenly it's the best damn version I ever played.

>>3677630
That's what I hear. All the advice I got on building Paladins was for BG2 because most people play with the mods that put BG1 into 2's engine, but I wanted to go pure vanilla for my first time. How does that work when I transfer over my save, anyway? I assume I'll be able to reassign proficencies a bit due to the changes?

>>3677789
Get Caromyr m80, you'll fucking love it.

>>3677789
i dont know for sure that it would work (I assume not), but you can just remake your character, using cheats to get him exactly where he was

>>3677806
Hello, new Imoen portrait.

>Just as the willow bends to the wind, so I will abandon my wife and be the shittest character

I heard the BG2 developers were going to have more than one male character as a romance option for female MCs, in addition to Anomen. They had to abandon the idea due to time constraints.

I'm guessing Haer'Dalis was one of them (neutral alignment, love triangle potential with Aerie). Surely this shit cunt was not one of them???

>>3676987
He also plagied some songs;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIbhpGcRlm0
It was really weird to find a Baldur's Gate song in a 80's movie.

I really want to like BG2 but I just cannot get into the game. I've tried two separate times now and have lost interest. Maybe I'm playing it wrong or something? I like some wRPGs but it's a struggle for bg2 to hold my interest. Send help

>>3677919
Now that you mention it, I can see that. The portrait is aesthetic, and his character arc does perfectly align for a romance situation. It's a shame shapshift was bugged in BG2, I still forced myself to use him inspite of it though.

How common is magic resistance in bg2? I want to replay as a Sorcerer but don't want to constantly lower enemies mr

>>3678080
any D&D game is easier if you actually really like both your character and their class/race/whatever

take the game slowly, fight each battle like you're being judged, and do what you actually want your character to do, not necessarily what is mechanically best

>>3678531
Dragons, Drow, Liches, that's mostly it.

>>3678080
Why force yourself to play something you don't like?

If you don't like it don't play it. People have different tastes.

I've never played this game but I'm currently loving the hell out of Pillars of Eternity so, naturally, I'm expecting Baldurs Gate to blow my mind. Half an hour left on my download. Wish me luck!

>>3678080
My problem with it and other D&D games is playing magic users is boring as fuck because you have to be incredibly stingy with your spells at the beginning. Never really felt it translated well into videogames, because at least with actual D&D you can find creative ways to handle situations and avoid casting, but videogames are very limited in creativity on the user's part.

>>3678748
Slings, nigga.

>>3678796
Yes, because that's what every Wizard wants to do. Throw stones at monsters.

>>3678809
What the fuck did you just fucking say about slings you little catamite? I'll have you know I graduated top of my class in the arts of speech and music, and I've been involved in numerous righteous acts in Israel, and I have over 300 confirmed bonks on the head. I am trained in the art of the liar and I'm the top slinger in the entire promised land.

>>3678796
Are you forgetting the +2 boomerang dagger?

>>3678748
Multi class a cleric/illusionist to have more spells.

Or dual class from a swashbuckler, bounty hunter, fighter or barbarian to use bows and make stoneskin and tenser's transformation that much more useful. Yes, a barbarian, it's just a fighter kit - just edit the dualclass.2da file.

>>3675797
Cause half-orcs are nasty!

>>3678748

1. Thoughtful use of spells is part of the challenge
2. Scrolls
3. Wands
4. Items (genie flask, spider figurine, dancing sword)

That said, I agree, I'd never play mage for the same reason, there's no single party member in BG1 or BG2 that makes a perfect tank, so that's always my MC

WTF, somebody made a bladesinger kit for fighters!?

That is quite retarded. For that to be relatively fitting, it would require making them able to dual class to a mage, and forcing them to do so, by blocking their advancement past a certain level or something.

They could have just made it a bard kit instead, that would be fairly close. Not like bumping out the Jester kit would make a difference.

>>3678982
That's the thing though, yeah there's options but you can't use them in the same way you can use them at an actual tabletop. It's an inherent problem with any DnD video game, it'll never capture the feel of the actual tabletop.

>>3678723
It really hasn't aged well.

The combat is pretty shallow compared to later games like Temple of Elemental Evil or Neverwinter Nights.

Again, compared to the class system of these two games, class progression is boring.

I still play it more than the other two, to be fair. NWN doesn't have a legit party system and the base campaign is dogshit, everything about TOEE besides combat, ruleset and class system is garbage.

>>3679873
>everything about TOEE besides combat, ruleset and class system is garbage.
amen

I was so excited when I learned that game existed, because it's actual 3.0 combat/rules in a videogame, but holy god damn is it autistic garbage other than that

NWN was a fun playthrough, but it's not something I want to do again, whereas as BG is a work of art, start to finish

>>3677631
Loss of hit points, uphill experience curve, loss of nonhuman thieving skills bonuses or halr orc strength, and I believe loss of exceptional strength.

Also, I'm pretty sure you miss out on high level abilities for a bit if you dig deeply into your experience for thief levels.

>>3680352
>and I believe loss of exceptional strength.
you'll have 19 strength by the end of bg1, but otherwise yeah

>>3675498
Dual fighter/mage
Bag of Holding or Lilarcor
Firkraag or any of the dragons, really
BG2 main theme

BG:EE is finally worthwhile. Bugs finally fixed and mod support and a mod to remove Beamdog's extra NPCs

>>3678723 here.

I started playing today. I had a couple of rough starts with ogres or direwolves just insta-killing my mage but I think I've just gotten through to the less annoying part of the game. I like just comfily clearing every wilderness map of enemies but Montoran and Xzar started complaining that I wouldn't go to Nashkell. Now that I've been there, I can get back to exploring.

>>3680687
Is Blackguard fun?

>>3680687
Was Kivan un-ruined as a character?

>>3681001
It's a paladin with poison, Absorb Health and a debuff aura
I never liked those class where you're tied to a god/demonic entity desu

>>3681025
I'll bite. How was he ruined?

>can't decide between stalker and archer

>>3681316
>stalker
more micromanaging, less overall "power", but more fun and easier to immerse yourself in

>archer
DPS cannon

>>3678830
>catamite
a young boy kept for homosexual purposes

>>3681331
My main grip with archer is the lack of very good longbow in 2, I know i could use shortbows or crossbows but that kinda piss me off

>>3681410
in bg2, shortbows are better by FAR

tuigan bow and gesens bow are both awesome, I forget which is more optimal, but yeah, both are way better than any other ranged weapons in the game

>>3675498
>Best <Charname> class and build?
I've had a lot of fun with a Wizard Slayer with the revision mod
>Favourite party member?
Jaheira on 1 and 2, Sarevok on ToB
>Waifu?
Jaheira
>Most enjoyable fight?
Firkraag and Yaga-Shura
>Most memorable music?
Almost all from the first game but only the Bhaalspawn battle theme from 2, a shame for it to have such forgettable music.

i wish i could waifu imoen

>>3681410
the real problem is a lack of anything beyond +3 ammo

>>3681757
gesen bow doesnt need arrows, and deals electrical damage

>>3681768
>that ear rape whenever the lightning hits
I'd rather use the tuigan bow desu

>>3681757
Well yeah, that's the reason longbows are worse than shortbows, crossbows and slings, they all get a weapon that can fire infinite +4/+5 projectiles.

>>3681770
It's for the best. The gesen doesn't belong in the hands of weaklings.

>>3680797
Use the sleep spell liberally. It's a lifesaver crowd control spell at low levels.

Alright lads which do I play for my first time:

BG1 vanilla then bg2 vanilla
Tutu or Trilogy mods
EE wth new npcs removed?

I've been thinking about buying Baldurs Gate EE for android

Is it worth it?

I just want to play some BG on my phone while I'm bored at work or away from home

>>3682297
I don't think it would be much fun to play on a phone but maybe you wouldn't mind as much as I would.

last year, I bought Icewind Dale for my phone but didn't have enough space on my phone to install it. it was $2

>>3682346
Shouldn't the savegame files be compatible between them?

>>3682101

get the mod that puts BG1 in BG2 engine and install no other mods (you'll get higher resolution and you'll be able to highlight loot, which saves you from cursor hunting), don't go too crazy on the resolution because the interface and models don't scale

>>3682373
don't know

seems like there should be a Christmas sale coming up, so if you want BG on your phone that bad you shouldn't have to pay full price.

>>3681896
>play icewind dale
>sleep spell great in the beginning
>get to Kresselacks tomb
>try to use sleep on undead
>mfw

>>3682404
>that fucking fight in the large room with the 20+ skeletons and the wizards

>>3682404
>>3682438
>that trap room on the first level that shoots a sleep spell at you, then skeletons come out of the walls all around you to slaughter you in your sleep

nfw

now get back on topic

>>3682346

BG2:EE on Android is fantastic on a 8" or bigger tablet. I've been playing it for months on a Shield.

You can cast the screen or HDMI out to a tv, too

>>3677789
> I assume I'll be able to reassign proficencies a bit due to the changes?
Correct. Importing a charcter is creating a character, but skipping a few steps.

>>3681753
>i wish i could waifu imoen
Wishing is not installing the mod. Everyone else has done Imoen. You are the last.

>>3675498
>Best <Charname> class and build?
1. Priest of Lathander
2. Conjurer.
Keep it simple.
>Favourite party member?
RP-wise:
1. Minsc
2. Viconia
Gameplay-wise:
1. Dorn
2. Anomen
>Waifu?
Anyone but Jaheria, that's about it.
>Most enjoyable fight?
Some of the demons in Watchers' Keep can be immensely fun once you're strong enough (others can be pain in the ass though). Also the Harpers fight(s) can be pretty cool if you're prepared and well-equipped and leveled.
>Most memorable music?
I don't know honestly. Opening theme probably.

>>3681753
>pic related
I will unironically fight you IRL.

>>3682101
Using the trilogy or tutu mod for your first playthrough will be easier, but is not an authentic experience. You will have access to the bg2 kits and weapon proficiencies in bg1, which is unbalancing.

That being said, i prefer BGT to tutu.

On the one hand, the EE will give you the kits and different proficiencies and what not from the later games, but on the other hand, you can store more items and won't have to go back to town everytime you pick up more shit. Also, the original game had bugs that have now been fixed.

>>3683605
What are the major differences between BGT and tutu? They sound the same

Amazing, I just received a $100 Dollar Free Steam Wallet Code at https://steamwallet-codes.com

>>3681896
Unfortunately, I chose Armor as my first spell and I can't find a Sleep scroll anywhere. Pelting everything with stones and arrows is working OK so far, though.

Currently trying to rush for bandit camp so I can keep Kivan in my party. I guess it won't be disastrous if he leaves, though, because there seems to be plenty of other characters who can take his place.

>>3683684
it doesn't take long to get there at all, and you have a pretty long time before he leaves

>>3680557
what's that chinese girl doing there

>>3683702
You don't want to know

>>3683707
speech mods, not even once

>>3675498
any tips for a man who only played morrowind-like RPGs ?

It's been a while since I want to play this game so if you have some advices

>>3680224
NWN is like Doom though, in that once you finish it there are suddenly fifteen thousand other modules.

>>3683715
Just kill everything at distance and don't put mods or anything in your first time. It's an easy game if you pause, move each character and shoot things to death.

I don't see why anyone would want to play single player NWN. The main campaign is a literal shitty demo of the real game.

>>3683731
because most of us didn't have internet (or only had dial-up) and didn't know about the online aspect of it anyway

>>3683730
k thanks
and for the classes and all that stuff ?

>Best <Charname> class and build

Inquisitor. It's cool to be able to instantly level the playing field vs. mages, including BTFO'ing Jon I. the first time you fight him

>Favourite party member

I like most of them. Viconia is a surprisingly good tank with magic resistance enhancing equipment and the armour of Balduran. Jan is the best thief in the game AND an OK spellcaster too.

Pic related kind of a prick but he's got his reasons.

Haer'Dalis and Cernd are pretty useless.

>waifu

Aerie has the cutest sounding voice. I enjoy listening to it. The other two ladies have quasi-slavic accents that don't do them any favours.

>most enjoyable fight

I got a rush the first time I downed a dragon

>most memorable music

BG2 opening theme after the initial choral bit. Many hours spent rolling characters while listening to that harp and dark horn arrangement

>>3683871
Just choose whatever you like. Don't need to powergaming or anything in this game.

>>3683871
>>3683891
no joke; the game is not hard, you can beat it with literally any character (though in the original you could die in a cut-scene at the beginning if your hp was too low)

even if your character is weak, your companions generally aren't, and there's gobs of expendable items to see you through hard encounters, and then you'll have more money than you can spend anyway, so really man, play literally anything you want

>>3683871

What kind of game do you want to play?

The BG games feature a lot of realtime squad-based tactical combat. No matter what class your main character is, you will have to work with a range of different party members each of a different class and with different fighting and magical abilities (unless you create all your own party members, which is NOT fun and you miss out on a ton of content).

Your choice of main character does have an influence on the gameplay, though. If your MC is a strong fighter type, you may be able to brute-force your way through more fights than you would if the MC was a spellcaster or thief type. Spellcasters require more forethought and management, and resting (and resting does have some significant consequences for gameplay in terms of time-driven story events). So if your MC is a wizard, your game might be a bit slower and more "fiddly" - but spellcaster are probably more interesting to play as, their capabilities increase more dramatically with each level of spellcasting they gain, whereas fighters just get incrementally better at hitting things.

So if you just want to plough through the story. Go with a fighter, ranger or paladin. For a more nuanced experience, mage, bard or dual-class.

But remember, whatever class your MC is, you'll still end up controlling thieves, fighters and mages anyway, unless you do it solo (not recommended for the same reason as above)

>>3683648
Tutu keeps the games separate, so you'll have to import your character into BG2 after completing BG1. BGT makes it a linear experience. Also, party NPC's you meet in BG1 will transfer their stats and XP over to BG2, assuming they're still alive in BG2.

>>3683913
>(unless you create all your own party members, which is NOT fun and you miss out on a ton of content)
probably my 2nd favorite playthrough of BG was a multiplayer game with a custom party, but of course isn't wasnt my first time through

of course with bg2 you'll need various npcs to get quests

>>3683912
Wouldn't that require having literally ONE hitpoint?

>>3683976
im not sure if it's just one (I think you get hit with a magic missile? so you'd need 3, i think), but it's possible to have just 1 max hp

>>3683989
I believe it's a scripted flame arrow which would have a very real chance of one-shotting a Lv1 character, so it only does a minimal amount of damage.

>>3684004
Where does that happen?

>>3684007
when gorion dies

>>3681753
I do not get the hate for NWN2 (okay, I do but it's not as bad as everyone says). It has great builds and great writing. so glad that the WOFF cast on it is relatively positive because goddamn someone gotta say someone good about that game

>>3683912
I never get why people do Fighter / Mage / Thief builds. You know what you've created here? An awful version of a Bard.

>>3684507
What do you mean an awful version? Bards ARE awful! A F/M/T can at least wear mage robes, have multiple attacks per round, take care of essential thieving and collect the experience and pick any of the three stronghold quests.

I'm confused about what to do about playing BG2 again. I'd like to try out out-there new characters, kind of akin to using a multiplayer game to star a many-PC party, on the other hand, I don't want to miss out on any NPCs, or even to pick them on other priorities before which personalities I want in my party.

I wish there were some alternate versions of them to override with. Like a Jaheira that's a straight Druid, or a Viconia that's a Cleric/Mage from having had to fend for herself while being abandoned by Lloth, or a Mazzy that's actually a Paladin(yes, against the rules, but it fits).

>>3684589
http://www.gibberlings3.net/level1npcs/ does everything you want, I think.

>>3683891
>>3683912
>>3683913
thanks guys i think i'll try some mage

>>3683950
the game is multiplayer, wtf ? never heard about that

>>3675841
>I never get tired of kicking the shit out of those armoured dudes in the sewers under Temple district. With practice you can kill them just with Yoshimo, Minsc and Jaheira straight out of Irenicus's dungeon.
With resist fear and some tactical fireball cheese they're a piece of cake.

>>3675498
>Best <Charname> class and build?
Wasn't that kensai/mage? Although personally I prefer either sorcerer or mage/cleric, the former for its versatility, the latter for spell sequencers and contingencies.
>Favourite party member?
I think I'll go with Minsc.
>Waifu?
Aerie. I've heard people whining about her whining, or dislike the sweetness. Well those are in a way reasons why I like her - she's the delicate loving girl, without Viconia's edge and without Jaheira's mentoring (although I recognize that all three ladies change for better over time)
>Most enjoyable fight?
I liked retaking of the elven town from the drow.
In contrast invading vampire catacombs was insanely frustrating with the allies turning on me in the aoe and mesmerize filled commotion of the fight.
>Most memorable music?
I liked the city gates theme, or the Good tune.

So serious question: Did Beamdog change any of the dialog in the original/SoA? I know they changed characters for SoD, but did they alter the originals?

I discovered an interesting factoid about BG2 the other day, if you kick someone out of your party while they're carrying too much stuff, they'll be unable to walk over to your MC and will remain rooted to the spot until you talk to them. I haven't found an application for this quirk yet.

>>3684786
Kicking Khalid or Jaheira out of the party while keeping their partner.

Or any of the other 'mated pairs' in bg1.

>>3684175
I enjoyed the campaign, sadly the final dungeon was extremely boring and I abandoned the game there.
The expansions were great, even Storm of Zehir was really fun to play.

>>3684725
You can create all your characters like in Icewind Dale, using a multiplayer mode. Also you could use it to play with other people but it sucks.

>>3684784

I've done extensive research on the subject and the answer is no, mercifully as far as I can tell, BG2:EE has exactly the same written content and gameplay events as BG2 Original, with the exception of the new characters, who can be ignored (or murdered).

Having said that, BG2:EE does include some bug fixes (or changes to mechanics) which make some character dialogue easier to access, for example, Nalia's speech to Torgal in the Keep area is almost impossible to access in original BG2.

BG2:EE ditches the concept of "hearing range" for party member and NPC dialogue, so if you fight the priest of Cyric in the Docks, Minsc will about some stuff at him even if he's in the far corner of the map. This has some interesting implications for conversations elsewhere in the game.

>>3684507
blades are strong, yes, but a f/m/t is perfectly strong enough to tackle anything in the game, therefor they are strong too.

Personally, I just wanted a character who could do pretty much anything. With potions, scrolls from churches, and resurrection rods, you're pretty much set. You can then pick your party members based on who you want, not who you need.

>>3684507
f/m/t is perfectly strong enough for anything in the game. bards (really we're talking about blades) have to be neutral, can't do thief skills besides pick pocket, are only good with melee weapons, can't use as many items, etc. sure the blade probably has the edge in a melee fight, but so what, as i said, the fmt is strong enough no problem

elf f/m/t:
two prof points in longsword/longbow (some of the best weapons in bg1) with the elf bonus on top of high strength and 19 dex, wear plate/leather/robes as you see fit, traps/locks? got it covered, later on you can start sneaking and backstabbing with your longsword and massive strength bonuses, have high lore bonus, have spells, can use scrolls and wands and whatnot

I played through the whole trilogy in 2009 with this character and it was a blast, start to finish. I never felt weak or inadequate. Hell, he had 7 con, and due to being stuck at 1st level for a long time, had 6hp when everybody else was like 3rd or 4th level and I *still* never died. High dex + plate + shield + everything else basically means you don't get hit unless you're fucking stupid. And if a fight is gonna be tough (which you can know via scouting), just buff with spells, put on your heaviest gear, drink potions (like, say, fortitude = 18 con) and rush in. It's total freedom.

>>3684575
actually the game considers you to be whatever you have the highest level in (thief, in this case)

>>3684575
>>3684884
F/M/T's are objectively worse than Bards (especially Blades) in just about every way.

Start with Thief Skills, since that's what most people do. Sure, the Bard is limited to Pick Pockets, but in BG1 you're going to want a strong late-game Thief for all those deadly traps in Durlag's Tower and the final levels. But your F/M/T isn't going to be it. You cut your XP by a third, and even with TotSC, the cap is what? 161,000xp? While a single class Thief would be coming in at 10th level, you're at 7th. Just a level shy (assuming you stacked nothing but Detect Traps and Open Locks) of taking out all the traps yourself and now needing to blow consumables to make up for the deficit. A dual-class Thief would've been able to do that though.

So the Thief skills by themselves... not that hot. Especially when you figure that the Bard can easily Pick Pocket any NPC in the game with minimal trouble. But what about fighting prowess? There wasn't a Blade class to carry the Bard in the first game. Well, again, your multiclassing screwed you. Your Fighter caps out at 6th level, meaning you will only ever have 1 attack per round, just like the Bard. A dual-class Fighter would have multiple attacks a round, sure, but not the F/M/T. Even your THAC0 gets bogged down by those Mage levels operating on a 1:3 ratio, not to mention the slower progression of leveling for those classes while the Bard zips right on by.

And so combat for the F/M/T or the Bard is basically just raw stats plus weaponry. And in BG1, the Bard can use just about anything. Longbows, Two-Handed Swords, whatever.

>>3685132
Which brings us to magic. Your Mage is cut off at level 6, and that's only when you reach the XP cap. 90% of that game you will not see a third level spell, making those nifty Mage robes in the first game pretty awful when compared to just wearing some Fullplate. What about the Bard? Well, he's been casting third level spells since 40k XP well before the Mage was even close, and he'll be casting 4th level spells before the end of the game. Not to mention his caster level will always be higher for determinant effects. More magic missiles, longer durations, greater radiuses, stronger fireballs, etc.

So, in summation, the F/M/T cannot do the job of a single or dual-class Thief for the first game and will rely on other NPCs or you spamming consumables. It fights only as well as a single-class unbuffed Bard. And the Bard absolutely BTFOs it in terms of Magic.

This is all just looking at Baldur's Gate 1, mind you. In Baldur's Gate 2, the discrepancy becomes even larger when the Bard gets the ability to take the Blade kit. Instead of just being equal in combat and superior in magic, it becomes wildly superior in both. And of course, Thief skills drop drastically in use in BG2, so those Thief levels become less and less useful as time goes on. Hell, you'd almost be better off just sinking them directly into Pick Pocketing, but then... you'd be even more like the Bard.

Oh, and not to mention BG2 starts flooding you with Bard-specific magic items, and things that assist a Blade's build like all the magic caster chains.

>>3684850
Didn't they "rebalance" certain things too?

>>3685174
Not nearly as much as you'd think. Almost all rebalancing is done via difficulty settings and the rest are either bugs that haven't been fixed for a good long time or minor tweaks.

>>3685183
Oh, and also what is basically tutu when talking about BG1. So it goes.

>>3685183
I've heard animate dead isn't as good as it used to be or something like that

>>3685132
>Durlag's Tower
First of all, the expansion material is garbage. Even so, durlag's tower is the only place in the game where you need 100% traps/locks; there's like 10 traps in the rest of the game. Even so, with 6 levels of thief, 20 dex, and an elf: 125 from level up + 30 open lock + 20 find traps + starting points = 100 in both

but you're not gonna put 100 in both. You're gonna put maybe 75 or 80 in both and use those OTHERWISE USELESS potions when you encounter a lock you can't pick or if you go in a dungeon. Actually, since there are FOUR potions that can raise your thief skills in various ways, you don't even need that much. You're gonna put the other points in hide/move silently, boosting with potions/gear if necessary. Have imoen focus in pick pocket.

As for attacks per round, my f/m/t has 3 every 2 rounds, whereas your bard has 2 every 2 rounds. Bards get +5 attack from levels at lvl 10. Fighter gets +6 at 6. Better in both ways.

>>3685139

>90% of that game
Nope. Once a f/m/t hits 91k, he's done. If, like me, you want to do the overland maps before getting to the cloakwood/bg, then you'll hit that pretty soon.

The bard gets 3rd level spells at 55k, actually, because they progress slower in spells than mages do, but your point about getting them pretty quickly still stands. A bard needs those spells, because he sure sucks at everything else (unless blade).

> Thief skills drop drastically in use in BG2
wtf are you smoking, there's barely any skill use in bg1, whereas there's tons everywhere in bg2

>flooding with bard items
you mean they actually get a few, finally? Yeah, four instruments, the melodic chain...what else?

A blade is a f/m with decent pickpocket, less hp, worse ranged attacks, no shields, no plate, neutral only, will never get 8th or 9th level spells, will never get 2 attacks per round (f/m/t will), and less need for the identify spell ...but gets the admittedly pretty good spin features ...x/day

>>3685197
>Thief Skills
You're talking about at XP cap you'll have the kind of abilities that every other Thief has a third of the way through the game. What's your plan for playing the game? Skip huge tracks of content somehow until your F/M/T can handle it? I mean, that 20 Dexterity isn't coming out until Chapter 5 at minimum.

And then you still intend to take Imoen along too. If you're going to be hoarding potions, why not just go Fighter / Mage and have Imoen drink them? Why weaken your overall build with a third class when you intend to bring a Thief anyhow?

And while I grant that you have the +1 THAC0 (at level cap) and a fraction of an attack more, it's canceled out by the Bard's spells buffing him far and away higher than the Fighter. Spells the F/M/T would not yet have.

>wtf are you smoking, there's barely any skill use in bg1, whereas there's tons everywhere in bg2
With piss-easy checks that even Nalia or Imoen are the equal to.

>you mean they actually get a few, finally? Yeah, four instruments, the melodic chain...what else?
Way to downplay those. Insta-wins on all Mage fights, a Mind Flayer-counter instrument in the Mind Flayer dungeon, and of course glossing over things like the Wondrous Gloves, Jester's Chain, etc.

>A blade is a f/m with decent pickpocket, less hp, worse ranged attacks, no shields, no plate, neutral only, will never get 8th or 9th level spells, will never get 2 attacks per round (f/m/t will), and less need for the identify spell ...but gets the admittedly pretty good spin features ...x/day
A Blade is a Fighter / Mage with better AC, higher damage output, better caster level, faster progression, no need for garbage shields and plate, will easily surpass 2 attacks per round (don't know where you got otherwise), and by the time your F/M is casting 9th level spells, your Fighter levels were superfluous anyhow while the Blade's melee scales just as useful until end game.

>>3685269
>easily surpass 2 attacks per round (don't know where you got otherwise)

This. Isn't the standard build for Blades to put pips in Scimitar and stack Belm and SN-T for 5 attacks out the gate when spinning?

>>3684784
There actually are a few things that were changed, but not in a way you'd be annoyed by. One that I remember is changing Centeol (fat spider woman in the Cloakwood) to refer to Irenicus rather than 'Icarus', although the original dialogue was still referring to the same guy.

>>3685191
If you're used to playing BG1 vanilla, it's much worse because you can only get 2 skeletons from it in the EE, and usually only 1. But then, that's just them implementing the BG2 format of the spell, same as if you played BGT or Tutu.

I also want to say the EE versions also don't have the BG1 vanilla random monster spawns, because that was never something modders could extract from the BG1 data.

>>3675498
Since I really enjoy the series and wasting my time reading arguments like those I'd like to add 2 questions:

>favorite location?
>best/most enjoyable unique weapon?

>>3685269
>You're talking about at XP cap
no, at 91k like I said earlier. xp cap is 161k

what does imoen have to do with hoarding potions? she can spend all her points on pick pocket before switching to mage (much earlier than she would if she were trying to max out find traps/open lock, btw).

> Bard's spells buffing him far and away higher than the Fighter
like what, exactly?
what super duper 4th level spells let you do that?

wondrous gloves/jesters chain are tob, by then, my f/m/t is gonna be wearing the best fighter spec gloves and Aslyferund's chain

better ac *OR* damage *when spinning only*
so you'll be doing more damage and getting hit more often, or getting hit less often and doing less damage...as long as you have spin uses left
where are you getting that bards ever get more than 1 attack per round base? with twf you get another, with haste you get more, with belm you get more, and with SN-T (once you get the use anything ability) one more, but a f/m gets all of that too, if they want, except the use anything ability, but then they get more attacks anyway, so they're still ahead

as for caster level, due to game mechanics the bard does indeed have a much higher caster level....but roughly the same amount of spells per day and slots as a f/m, so the f/m is a better fighter and the blade is a better caster

you'll argue that with spin, the blade is better, I say it's situational. I would play the blade over the f/m personally, because I like having more class abilities (thus my f/m/t choice, but I'd take the f/m/t over the blade)

f/m/t is perfectly strong enough for the entire game, no problem
blades are a bit better than f/m/t's in late game, sure, but not early game, and a f/m/t is definitely better than a standard bard
regardless, f/m/t is fine

>>3685328
im this guy: >>3677374

>favorite location
forest of tethyr areas
>favorite dungeon
planar sphere
>best weapon
crom faeyr, duh
>most enjoyable unique weapon
hmm, I usually use the blade of roses until ToB, then i get angurvadal or whatever, which is an awesome weapon
but I think celestial fury is probably the coolest
there's a bunch in bg2

>>3685351
Again, why are you going F/M/T when your intention is to take a M/T in your game? Especially if you're going to be so gimped that you have to rely on potions, why not just have the M/T rely on potions and you NOT get shafted out of high level spells and multiple attacks a round by going F/M?

>what super duper 4th level spells let you do that?
Not just 4th, although I'm a big fan of the likes of Spirit Armor, Polymorph Self, Improved Invisibility, etc. The Bard is acquiring spell levels earlier than the F/M/T is. That level 7 Bard is going to enjoy his Haste spell while it's a dim hope on the horizon for the F/M/T.

>wondrous gloves/jesters chain are tob, by then, my f/m/t is gonna be wearing the best fighter spec gloves and Aslyferund's chain
Jester's Chain is vanilla SoA, and by the time you're using those items, the Bard has UAI and is too.

>better ac *OR* damage *when spinning only*
Yes, while spinning his AC is infinitely better. When not spinning his AC is equally as good, because a Fighter can't get lower than a Bard.

So, the Blade either has ten times the AC of the Fighter to mop up enemies, or he has equal AC and ten times the damage to rapidly mop up enemies. Either way, the Fighter is ducking his head in shame and cursing his useless Thief levels.

>where are you getting that bards ever get more than 1 attack per round base? with twf you get another, with haste you get more, with belm you get more, and with SN-T (once you get the use anything ability) one more, but a f/m gets all of that too, if they want, except the use anything ability, but then they get more attacks anyway, so they're still ahead
Kundane is a weapon too. And the Fighter isn't dealing maximum damage off of every hit either. And of course, when Blade learns Improved Haste to turn those four attacks into eight a round (albeit without spin) the poor F/M/T is still close to a million XP away from doing likewise.

>>3685328
>favorite location?
The dungeon under Spellhold
>best/most enjoyable unique weapon?
CAR
SO
MYR

>>3685421
my intention is to have a character who can fight, cast spells, and use thief skills all in one. dunno what you were trying to ask with the rest of that paragraph

>while it's a dim hope on the horizon for the F/M/T.
why do you keep exaggerating to such a ridiculous extent
50k exp further is not "distant hope on the horizon", even in bg

>jester's chain
right, it's from spellhold, not cespenar
why would you even mention this one, though? you cant cast spells in it

>because a Fighter can't get lower than a Bard.
unless he's using a shield or wearing some other non-bard AC-raising item, like a helmet (until UAI, anyway)

>and ten times the damage
there you go exaggerating again
max damage on a d6 item (like belm or kundane), with +2 damage, with +1 attack is not gonna match what the fighter's putting out, actually. dunno why I didnt realize that earlier

>kundane
okay, so it's like scarlet but earlier. fighter can get it too. same difference

> the poor F/M/T is still close to a million XP away from doing likewise.
are you comparing to f/m or f/m/t?
f/m is 180k away, f/m/t is about 900k, yeah
to be pedantic, a f/m/t can still cast it from a scroll

>>3685464
>attack is not gonna match what the fighter's putting out, actually. dunno why I didnt realize that earlier
gonna go ahead and take this part back; forgot that a blade can have the same 19 str as a fighter, given that you go straight from 18 to 19 with the +1 str book, regardless of the blade not having 18/xx beforehand

the fighter can still use high-strength potions, but that's a bit situational

>>3685464
>a character who can fight, cast spells, and use thief skills all in one.
And the point was that you end up with a worse version of a Bard. You have a Thief that can't handle Thief issues, a Fighter that can't out-fight the Bard and a Mage that can't outcast the Bard. All with sluggish and weak XP progression.

>50k exp further is not "distant hope on the horizon", even in bg
It's actually closer to 22k experience, but even still. That's portioned between your entire team. Assuming you decided to only four man the game instead of six and then sit there fighting Greater Basilisks till you catch up, because "lolwhy play the game?" you'd need close to two dozen of them to catch up. And those are some of the highest XP rewarding creatures in the game. So it's not an exaggeration and it's not an insignificant sum. Just playing the game naturally, that amount equals a huge chunk of the game in difference.

>why would you even mention this one, though?
Because it's a great piece of early game armor that you can just slap on for meaningless encounters where you're not going to need to Mage buff. Or where you have lingering defenses like Stoneskin still in place.

>unless he's using a shield
Spells account for more than that anyhow. The likes of Shield, Blur, Spirit Armor, Improved Invisibility, etc. make all that superfluous and a Fighter wasting an attack on a shield tumbles even further behind.

>max damage on a d6 item (like belm or kundane), with +2 damage, with +1 attack is not gonna match what the fighter's putting out, actually. dunno why I didnt realize that earlier
What would possibly make you think that? The only thing the Fighter has over him is the +3 more damage from Grand Mastery. But a Bard isn't JUST a fighter. He pops OS, T'sT and bam! -4 AC, +12 Attack (minimum), +4 Damage and max damage per hit x5. And that's one buff.

>>3685479
>You have a Thief that can't handle Thief issues
I proved that it can
>a Fighter that can't out-fight the Bard
I proved that it can; unless bard uses high-level buffs
>a Mage that can't outcast the Bard
this is true
so you're half right

>Spells account for more than that anyhow. The likes of Shield, Blur, Spirit Armor, Improved Invisibility, etc. make all that superfluous and a Fighter wasting an attack on a shield tumbles even further behind.
the shield spell is useless if you've got armor from another source
likewise with spirit armor
improved invisibility can be cast on a fighter
whereas shields can grant huge bonuses to AC; looking at fortress shield and sentinel here
yes the bard can cast those spells on himself with no extra companions, and some of them have benefits besides AC, but the bard does not have higher AC than the fighter, not even close

I wasn't counting grand mastery, actually, and as I said in a correcting post, it was an error to begin with
they're about on par; yes the bard can cast spells to buff (so can f/m and f/m/t to somewhat lesser extents), but the fighter can use potions and items the bard can't (until UAI)

I find a lot of the appeal of the Blade is how much work you get done between rests. Say you're about halfway through SoA and are around 18th level. You only have a couple of Improved Hastes per day. But you ALSO have all those Offensive Spins.

So, assuming a 19 STR and Belm / Kundane without using any other buffs, you can either:

Spin: (Weapon 6x5) + (Enhancement 2x5) + (Strength 7x5) + (Spin 2x5) = 85/turn

or

Improved Haste (Weapon Avg 3.5x8) + (Enhancement 2x8) + (Strength 7x8) = 100/turn

And of course, that's just assuming you're otherwise naked. You'd probably have stuff like Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise, Draw Upon Holy Might, and a whole lot of other buffs skyrocketing the damage higher. But the main thing is that you can do all that like 6 encounters a day.

With Mages it feels like you need to rest every other encounter after blowing your load.

>>3685501
>I proved that it can
You proved that using consumables you could overcome it. I could claim the same with my Bard. He just pops healing potions after every trap.

>I proved that it can; unless bard uses high-level buffs
"My Fighter is stronger than the Bard if the Bard doesn't use his Bard powers." Well, obviously. The Bard would kick the shit out of the Fighter if the Fighter wasn't allowed to use weapons or armor or the rest of his class abilities too.

>spell critiques
Shield still makes you immune to Magic Missile, Spirit Armor is available out the gate in BG2 when you're using leather armor and the like, and it has the strength of Full Plate with the added bonus of Saving Throw buffs. And a Fighter can't cast Improved Invisibility, and a F/M/T can't cast it in BG1 at all, let alone as early as a Bard can.

>the bard does not have higher AC than the fighter, not even close
C'mon now, you know they're going to be tied. Both the F/M/T and the Bard are going to be wearing the Aslyferund Elven Chain, because there's all of 2-3 armor with any AC better, none of which you can cast in and all of which are only at the end of ToB. Further, any item the F/T/M can use by that point the Bard can too. The only real difference is leveling, in which case the Blade either situationally explodes past the Fighter with DS, or is passively a bit better because he has spells that the Fighter doesn't. Take the end of TotSC. Spirit Armor sticks him at AC 1, and lets him cast all his spells. Your F/M/T can't cast that and will be having to live off of Mage Robes or just cutting out all his M/T powers and wearing armor. Plus, ImpInv amounts to another -4 AC on top, something the F/M/T can't cast. I mean, BG1 doesn't even have Stoneskin or the F/M/T would've been BTFO'd even harder.

The Bard (especially the Blade) is just what the Fighter / Mage / Thief wants to be, only he's actually that person out the gate. For whatever reason, there's a long standing stigma against Bards as being underpowered and useless so people go through these long and needlessly elaborate leveling schemes to create, what in essence, is just a Bard.

The Fighter / Mage / Thief can do just about anything a Blade can do... eventually. The Blade will be doing all of that earlier and more consistently through the gameplay.

While the F/M/T is just pretending to be a solo class Fighter because his spells and Thieving abilities are too weak to use, the Blade is casting Mage buffs to let him fight up close in melee. By the time the F/M/T is doing that, the Blade is using things that buff him further and further ahead of the F/M/T and doing it better.

By the time they're at the end game with millions of XP... the F/M/T just surpasses him. But what use was playing through Baldur's Gate, Tales of the Sword Coast, Shadows of Amn and half of Throne of Bhaal just so you could barely hedge out the power of a Bard?

>>3685328

OP here. Glad you asked...

>favourite location

Temple of Helm. The music and ambient sound FX are phenomenal with good headphones or stereo speakers. I can close my eyes and imagine I'm actually in a Knights Templar chapel or something. The place makes a good base early in the game, you can "park" party members there in between quests, lock up females you're romancing if you need to, and get healing and potions too.

>enjoyable unique weapon

Anything with unlimited ammo - those throwing axes that boomerang back to you, the dart that does the same thing, Everard's sling, the gesen and that other shortbow.

>>3685525
>He just pops healing potions after every trap.
unless it kills him; the magic ones are pretty deadly
im looking at the lightning traps that can hit you like 6 times in bg, and the insta-death ones in bg2

>spell critiques
still doesnt give the bard a higher max AC than the fighter, which is what you claimed to begin with

>C'mon now, you know they're going to be tied.
after UAI, yes

Yes, the blade has serious advantages in being able to have spirit armor and greater invisibility and still cast spells. Still, the f/m and f/m/t can buff with spells/potions and then put armor on, for roughly the same max AC (enhanced full-plate + misc shit like helmets is about -4 armor), but then he can't cast spells (can still use wands, I believe). Those fighter potions are pretty good, though (potion of invulnerability grants +5 saves, strength potions go up to 24, heroism grants extra hp and thaco).

>>3685503
>Draw Upon Holy Might
on a bard? how?

>>3685548
>is about -4 armor
-4 ac, extra, i mean

>>3675498
I worked on Baldur's gate and Planescape torment. Later I worked on Vampire Bloodlines. Before these games I worked at SSI and was on Dark Sun. Ask me anything.

>>3685553
>Ask me anything
Prove it

Anyone tried the Shaman class introduced in the EE? I always liked the concept but the gimmick seems useless and a sorcerer like spellcasting sound pointless on a druid.

>>3685553
God, you are still here.

>>3685548
>unless it kills him; the magic ones are pretty deadly
Potions of Insulation, Fire Resistance, Magic Protection, Cold Resistance, etc. Hell, Potion of Magic Blocking and just skip carefreely across them all. The point remaining, if you're having to use consumables to overcome a challenge it invalidates the need for the class.

>still doesnt give the bard a higher max AC than the fighter, which is what you claimed to begin with
It does when he's in Defensive Spin, and it equalizes the Fighter outside of it. As stated here: >>3685421

"Yes, while spinning his AC is infinitely better. When not spinning his AC is equally as good, because a Fighter can't get lower than a Bard."

>Still, the f/m and f/m/t can buff with spells/potions and then put armor on
-.-

Back to consumables and mechanic exploitation to try and just equal what the Bard does naturally, huh? And even then, you're falling behind because you cut out a huge chunk of the rest of your classes to put that armor on.

Say it's the last fight with Sarevok. Sure, you're looking as good as the Bard, you can both tank Tazok awhile. But while the Bard is also casting Blind to remove Angelo from the fight, dispelling Sarevok's deadly Haste buff with Slow, and reupping his own Improved Invisibility to duck out of combat if he needs to get some quick healing or line up fresh spells... you're locked in. You removed all of your versatility and two-thirds of your classes to just try and scramble back up to where the Bard already was.

>on a bard? how?
Bhaalspawn powers.

>>3677919
Tim Cain recommended we do this, and he pushed for this on fallout. We didnt listen though. I was at his wedding.

>>3685570
>>3685548

You're both wrong about the Bard only equaling the Fighter. The Bard can also take Enhanced Bard Song and Greater Evasion and get -16 AC lower than the Fighter. Then, if he Defensive Spins, it's 36 AC lower.

The Blade is capable of the lowest AC in the game.

>>3685570
>Potions of Insulation, Fire Resistance, Magic Protection, Cold Resistance, etc. Hell, Potion of Magic Blocking and just skip carefreely across them all.
oh, did your bard find the traps?
if you're saying that thieves arent necessary because you can use potions instead, well yes, thats technically true

>As stated here:
only in defensive spin; outside of that, his AC is worse (or roughly matched, with spells on the bards side) until we get to epic levels and UAI comes into play
speaking of epic abilities, im really not too familiar with them (tob is my least favorite part of the trilogy by far); does a bard have access to the warrior HLA's? If not, then another point for my side of the argument

>Back to consumables and mechanic exploitation to try and just equal what the Bard does naturally, huh?
really, the fighter surpasses the bard with the high-str potions, but yes
if the warriors have access to something the bard doesn't, then thats kind of a class feature for the warriors, isn't it
potions are plentiful, they last long enough for an entire dungeon, and you get so much gold in these games you can just buy more than you'll ever need, so I dont see the problem here
hell, i could argue that a bard has to rest to regain his spells, it's all the same

>you're locked in.
can always just drink an invisibility potion
regardless, you can run outside, take off your armor, run inside, cast spells, run outside, put armor back on, etc, which is cheesy
but id argue that I dont even need to leave in the first place (never have before, except with one intentionally weak character)

>Bhaalspawn power
true. all i can say is that it doesnt last very long, while potions last for hours

By now, you have to admit that the f/m or f/m/t is pretty close to the blade in terms of power, even if you don't agree that they're equal
certainly not this whole "blown out of the water" you were saying to begin with

>>3685583
Sorry, -26* AC lower. Should've proofread first.

>>3685589
isn't the AC cap at -24?

>>3685587
>oh, did your bard find the traps?
Yep. With the same meta knowledge that told you that you'd need Potions of Insight to detect them too. ;)

>if you're saying that thieves arent necessary because you can use potions instead, well yes, thats technically true
I'm saying that the Thief levels in BG1 are only good for disarming traps. Your backstabs aren't going to get high enough to be worth it, and if your Thief can't even handle traps without spamming potions - which any non-Thief could also do to bypass traps, why have the Thief at all?

>does a bard have access to the warrior HLA's? If not, then another point for my side of the argument
No, nor vice versa, but it's not a point in your favor. Warriors get no AC lowering abilities. The closest they have is Hardiness, which reduces incoming damage. But the Blade is one of only a couple of classes in BG2 that can lower his AC enough to be competitive in ToB and still avoid being hit altogether. (I remember a Swashbuckler build that clocks in around -30 AC too.)

>if the warriors have access to something the bard doesn't, then thats kind of a class feature for the warriors, isn't it
Popping consumables isn't really a "class feature", I'd say. And really, assuming infinite consumables kind of defeats the purpose of the debate. A Potion of Defense outlasts any combat's length and is as strong as enchanted Full Plate. Any class balances against just about any other class if you assume infinite money and consumables to buy with it.

>can always
And more consumable abuse. And you can't run outside, once you're in, you're in. It's why so many people had trouble cheesing the Sarevok fight, they were used to door-hopping to victory.

>you have to admit that the f/m or f/m/t is pretty close to the blade in terms of power
If one class has infinite money and infinite consumables, but that's not really because that base class is worth a damn, it's because of the infinite consumables.

>>3685637
>With the same meta knowledge that told you that you'd need Potions of Insight to detect them too.
oh, the "im entering a dungeon, better drink my hours-long trap-detection potions"

> if your Thief can't even handle traps without spamming potions
I specifically explained that yes, he can, well before the halfway mark of the game. BUT, if he wants to also have hide and move silently, he should use the potions.

>in around -30 AC too.
>>3685629
pretty sure this is why people are always harping on about damage reduction for tob

anyway, I wasnt talking about HLA's just for the AC, it was just to counter your UAI usage

>Popping consumables isn't really a "class feature", I'd say.
then neither is melodic chain or the various instruments

>strong as enchanted Full Plate
regular full-plate, i think. AC 0, regardless

> if you assume infinite money and consumables to buy with it.
well, you do pretty much get it

>>3685637
>once you're in, you're in.
pretty sure i remember leaving and coming back with my thief once, but whatever, the room is big enough to hide outside of their vision

half of your post is you not acknowledging that warrior potions are basically a class feature, i say they are, so there isnt much else to say

>>3685657
>oh, the "im entering a dungeon, better drink my hours-long trap-detection potions"
Half hour real world, and you're not clearing Durlag's Tower in that time. Or the time it takes for several to run out, assuming you don't ever need to rest - which you would.

>I specifically explained that yes, he can, well before the halfway mark of the game.
You consider 60,000xp and Chapter 5 to be before the halfway mark of the game? Your plan was a min/maxed 19 Dexterity Elf who would take the Tome in Chapter 5 to get Find Traps up to +20%. I mean, even if you grind out all the level inappropriate zones first to trivialize the story content and gameplay, in what world is Chapter 5 pre-mid?

>pretty sure this is why people are always harping on about damage reduction for tob
The highest THAC0s in the game from the enemies will barely hit the -24, and it's possible to situationally take your AC lower. For example, Improved Invisibility effectively makes you a -28 AC, but doesn't count against the limit. And it's piss-easy for Blades to get there.

Aslyferund Elven Chain gets you to 0, Assuming just an 18 Dexterity takes you to -4, Wondrous Gloves is -5, Improved Cloak of Protection +2 is -7, Wong Fei's / Dusty Rose Ioun Stone to -8, Ring of Gaxx to -10 and the D'Arnisse Signet Ring to -12 and Enhanced Bard Song to -22. You've not used a single spell or limited ability, that's just your walking around AC. A quick Greater Evasion'll top you off and buff your speed / saves whenever you're fighting the likes of Demogorgon, but it's really not necessary.

You've probably noticed most of your tankier fighters tend to end the game around -10 to -13 AC, which is pretty normal if you got most of the best gear. In that case, Hardiness does become necessary because you're still regularly getting tagged by Ettins and Fire Giants.

>warrior potions
Infinite consumables are not class features. Anymore than me claiming a Wish Scroll for every fight.

>>3685704
If there wasn't a cap, how low could the Blade get?

>>3685715
You could squeeze out 2 more points of Dex AC, replace the armor with White Dragon Scale for 2 more, Darksteel Shield for 5 more, and then Defensive Spin for 10 more.

So -47AC? It'd involve activating things and then switching around gear though.

>>3675498
fuck yeah a bg thread, currently replaying the original with a berserker who i am going to dual class into a druid in 2. Just gonna finish Durlags tower and then wrap up the final main quest with sarevok.

I unironically love Baeloth in EE, his witty whimsical vaniloquent vocabulary is very entertaining, edwin and tiax are also fun to have along. In bg2 Jan Jansen, edwin and the paladin gnome are also nice.


The waifus suck in this game, cringe inducing desu.
I really liked fighting the dark elf Sendai in throne of bhaal, very challenging fight.

Fire giants music/marching mountains in throne of bhaal really stuck with me, Inon zur is a master composer to be sure

>>3685657
>people are always harping on about damage reduction for tob

Hardiness is really blasé for a Fighter / Mage though. Take 40% of the damage of every hit that lands, or just cast the 4th level Stoneskin and take 0%.

>>3685740
Berserker / Druid is one of my top five favorite dual class combinations and one that no one seems to know about or figure out for themselves. Still, it's so damn sexy and effective.

Where's your break-point for dual-classing to Druid? Level 7, 10 or 13?

>>3685759
>>3685759
i found a post "guide" on how to play it.

**
Just a quick word of warning, make sure you have sufficient stats to dual to a druid. They have extremely demanding attributes.

You will need minimums of:

STR: 15 (minimum primary attribute, preferably 18/xx)
DEX & CON not required but should be 18 to tank
INT: should be at least 9 so you can use protection scrolls
WIS & CHA: 17 (absolute minimums for dual classing to druid)

Dual at level 13 to get an additional 1/2 attack per round and approx +2 to your saving throws.

Notable Druid weapons:

Belm (a must!!)
Gnasher +2 (awesome poison damage stacks very fast!)
Backblood (excellent troll slayer and 9.5 average damage is not to be sniffed at

Personally, I'd dual wield Gnasher (main) with Belm (off). By level 13, you'll have 8 proficiency points: If you have the Grandmastery patch installed, put 5 into clubs, one into scimitar and 2 into "2 weapon style". If you dont have the patch, put 3 into clubs, 3 into schimitars and 2 into "2 weapon style". The GM combo will give you 5 APR with belm, otherwise, you'll get 9/2 APR.

**

so i will dual at 13, ironskin and all the other boosts together with rage and improved haste will make me an unstoppable killing machine

>>3685769
The only real detriment of dualing at level 13 is just how painfully long it is to get to level 14 as a Druid. Level 13-15 are staggered out at insane intervals for the Druid and just the Druid.

Still, nothing's sweeter than hitting that Berserker 13 / Druid 14 moment and going to challenge Faldorn for the Great Druid title.

>>3675498
anything short is the best, simply the best
dwarf fighter/cleric, halfling swashbuckler, gnome whatever/illusionist are all great
i touch myself thinking about shorty bonuses each night
heya, it's me! is best and cutest party support character
also i always really enjoy the earlier group fights - the amazons east of nashkel, the mercs in cloakwood, and the group at the top of the iron throne tower

>>3685776
Play through shadows of amn, grow your fighter, dual class, export, import into Throne of Bhaal. Huge hurdle evaded!

>>3685790
So you just skip a huge part of bg2?
>>3685759
Not him but I usually dual at 9, that way I get one more rage, full fighter hp and getting a druid to level 10 only take 125000 xp so it's pretty quick
I really wish you could go ranger/druid though

>>3685740
I really want to like the druids but man their level 1 to 4 spells are so boring.

>>3685704
>>3685657
FMT is a waste of a class. Unless you like to roleplay you're gimping yourself tremendously. Thief is the most useless class in the game for obvious reasons.

A blade will never be better than fighter. You can whine about consumables all you want but you can't move the goalposts and you can say you can't consume for every single fight but you can for most, and a consumed fighter mage puts a blade in the dumpster for damage output. It doesn't matter who else is in sarevoks room when he dies in a single round because you hit like a truck and never miss.

>>3685841
Then by your logic, I can use my Bhaalspawn powers for every fight in which case the Blade still outstrips the Fighter/Mage in power.

19 base Strength + 3 DUHM = 22 Str. The best Fighter potion you can find in the first game is only 24 Str (enjoy spending 1,500g every single fight). That's only a 2-pt damage difference. The strength of Offensive Spin without maxing damage equalizes it, and with maxing damage blows it out.

And so, even with the Fighter autistically popping infinite potions after having console commanded himself infinite money, the Blade still outstrips him.

GG EZ

>Have six people in the party
>Get to Spellhold
>Have to leave Imoen behind.

: (

>>3686451
But she makes it back to the copper coronet on her own, AFAIK.

>>3686108

>Then by your logic, I can use my Bhaalspawn powers for every fight

Sure

>in which case the Blade still outstrips the Fighter/Mage in power.

No

>19 base Strength + 3 DUHM = 22 Str. The best Fighter potion you can find in the first game is only 24 Str (enjoy spending 1,500g every single fight). That's only a 2-pt damage difference. The strength of Offensive Spin without maxing damage equalizes it, and with maxing damage blows it out.

Fighters hit 25 str with pot and DUHM. This adds 3 hit and 4 damage which is higher than blade OS. Add in potion of power haste etc, additional attacks from being a fighter, and the fighters naturally high Thac0 you will massacre a blade any day of the week.

I'm assuming you're only referring to bg1, in 2 and up it's even more one sided in the fighters favor. Not to mention the fact that bards are pansies.

>>3685807
>I really wish you could go ranger/druid though
You can do barbarian-druid! And awkwardly, even barbarian->mage, which is particularly effective. Barbarian->druid sounds much more right though, since druid's aren't supposed to wear hugely elaborate armour. Kind of too bad monk can't be changed or unlocked to be dualable like a cleric, that would be interesting finding a way to make it work, particularly since it wouldn't be too easy.

>>3685704
>Half hour real world
most of which is paused
regardless, only besides maybe candlekeep, no other dungeon is longer than 1 or 2 potions, and there's only like 6 noteworthy dungeons

>You consider 60,000xp and Chapter 5
91k, for the third time, but you don't need chapter 5 for that, chapter 5 just turns your 19 dex into 20, which raises each thief skill by 5
but actually yeah, the beginning of chapter 5 pretty much is halfway, if not less, due to the size of baldurs gate and the length of the remaining quests

>Infinite consumables are not class features. Anymore than me claiming a Wish Scroll for every fight.
they're not infinite (in bg, anyway), there's just more than you will ever need
frankly, a f/m/t doesn't even need them for the vast majority of fights, and even if you used them in every notable fight, you'd never use all of what's available

how many wish scrolls have you come across?

>Unless you like to roleplay you're gimping yourself tremendously.
"gimp" is exaggeration, but yes
as I said earlier, I crushed the game with my f/m/t
I've intentionally never played a kensai, a pure mage, a berserker/anything, all the most powerful classes, basically, because it just wouldn't be any fun

I like classes like f/m/t, blade, swashbuckler, stalker, and to a lesser extent assassin, archer, barbarian, and cavalier; they're strong, but they don't completely dominate. About the strongest I'd want to play is like a dwarf ftr/cleric

>And so, even with the Fighter autistically popping infinite potions after having console commanded himself infinite money,
it's okay to admit you're wrong sometimes, anon

>>3686469
>Fighters hit 25 str with pot and DUHM. This adds 3 hit and 4 damage which is higher than blade OS. Add in potion of power haste

So, your response is if for every single trash mob in the game you spend a minimum of 2,250 gold, you can just BARELY hedge out a Blade who's not spending a single coin in damage?

I think this is probably the strongest endorsement for Blades yet. Unless you're console commanding yourself infinite money, the Blade far out-averages the Fighter.

>>3686587
>besides maybe candlekeep, no other dungeon is longer than 1 or 2 potions
Durlag's Tower definitely is. Firewine dungeon almost certainly is too. But it's still a moot point. If you're popping consumables to overcome a challenge, then you didn't need the Thief to begin with because anyone can pop consumables to bypass traps.

>91k, for the third time
I'm not sure what 91k is supposed to be? Thieves hit level 6 at 60k xp, and level 7 at 120k xp. 91k is nothing. It's not a Fighter level, it's not a Mage level, it's nothing. You keep throwing that number out there without qualification, and I'm beginning to wonder if you even know what you're on about anymore.

>they're not infinite (in bg, anyway), there's just more than you will ever need
The only way you and that other poster have supposed you could surpass the Blade is by assuming you pop MULTIPLE THOUSAND GOLD worth of potions for every single fight, no matter how trivial. I'm telling you it's beyond unrealistic, but if that's the kind of autism we're going to use for this hypothetical, then I have no issue just doing likewise with scrolls. If infinite gold for infinite potions strikes you as being a Fighter class ability for some reason, then infinite gold for infinite scrolls strikes me likewise for Bards.

>how many wish scrolls have you come across?
An infinite supply from Lazarus Librarus.

>it's okay to admit you're wrong sometimes, anon
It is, and so I accept your apology for being so drastically mistaken.

If you were to play as a trio, what NPCs would you take?
Further tequirements are no Yoshimo or Imoen, and preference for single/dual class characters (i.e. no multis).

>>3687281
>Durlag's Tower definitely is.
you heard: "besides maybe candlekeep, no dungeon is..."
what i said was "besides maybe candlekeep, no OTHER dungeon is"
firewine dungeon is one floor

>If you're popping consumables...
we've been over this already. those consumables exist just for thieves to do exactly this. traps can easily kill you, and without a thief, you wont know exactly where they are, so your spell/potion protections might wear off before you trigger one. Granted, the defense potions last for hours too, i think, so that much is true, and we've already covered that thieves really aren't necessary to begin with.

91k is when a f/m/t reaches max level in bg1; he doesn't need 161k. pay attention

you dont need potions for 90%+ of fights, so what? if both classes would win anyway, what difference does it make?

>lazarus librarus
>tob
>nigga please
meanwhile potions are available in bg1

At this point, everything has been said, and you're just salty.

>>3687313
>firewine dungeon is one floor
Which doesn't stop it from being the most excruciating dungeon in the entire game, bar none.

>those consumables exist just for thieves to do exactly this.
So do the consumables other classes pop. Tanking a fireball trap with a Potion of Fire Resistance is no more or less utilizing consumables correctly.

>91k is when a f/m/t reaches max level in bg1; he doesn't need 161k. pay attention
"Pay attention"? Really? Well, you're wrong either way. Pic related. And don't try to backpedal and claim you weren't including TotSC because the XP cap on vanilla Baldur's Gate was lower than 91k.

>if both classes would win anyway, what difference does it make?
The argument was over which was better. You needing to spend several thousand gold on every single fight including trash mobs just to hold a candle means that the Blade is better. See, I never argued that the F/M/T was garbage or that you shouldn't play it. I argued that it was a complicated way to make a less powerful Blade, and that's what it is. All this number crunching has only served to validate that claim.

>meanwhile potions are available in bg1
And scrolls are available in BG1. The Wish scroll isn't the only scroll in the game. But given you thought the XP cap was 91k, I can see you're not too familiar with how these games work.

>At this point, everything has been said, and you're just salty.
Salty about what? Being proven right over and over again? Or you publicly embarrassing yourself over and over. I let your slip about the XP go time and time again until you finally got so obnoxious about it "for the THIRD TIME!" that I finally pointed it out.

>>3687330
>I let your slip about the XP go time and time again until you finally got so obnoxious about it "for the THIRD TIME!" that I finally pointed it out.

I've been watching the back and forth since last night and I saw the 91k thing too but didn't say anything. It's true though. You were getting more and more snide and aggressive pushing it:


>>3685197
>Nope. Once a f/m/t hits 91k, he's done.
>>3685351
>no, at 91k like I said earlier.
>>3686587
>91k, for the third time
>>3687313
>91k is when a f/m/t reaches max level in bg1; he doesn't need 161k. pay attention

Fighter / Mage / Thief hits max level at 120k. 91k isn't anything.

>>3687298
i first played bg1 in 2004, and I barely remember anything from that run; i had borrowed the game

I first got it for myself in 2008, where i ran a human fighter, coran, and yeslick
it was a blast

in bg2, ive never done less than a full party, but if i did....human thief (maxed traps/locks)/mage (basically imoen), korgan, and anomen, i guess

my thief would be female, so i could get that romance in there, but it's a close call between him and viconia
id rather take her, but i dont want an evil run, so my team has good/neutral/and evil, rather than good/evil/evil

regardless:
mage: robes, gesen bow, thief items when necessary
korgan: plate, shield, axes
anomen: plate, shield, crom faeyr

powerful, competent, nothing they can't do

>>3687298

Aerie and Jan. MC would need to be something tanky. That covers all the bases, thieving, spellcasting and healing. In fact, you don't NEED Cleric spells so you could swap Aerie for a mage of your choice. But having her wear the Robe of Vecna and be able to cast the full repertoire of magics at crazy speed is pretty kewl.

>>3687340
>>3687330
32k+40k+40k = 112k
explain to me where the last 8k is coming from?

I misread the site I was using, assuming the fighter and mage both got to 6th level at 32k...still dont know how i got 91 our of that

that doesn't invalidate anything else

>>3687330
>And scrolls are available in BG1.
why do you try to be so slippery? you specifically used the wish spell as your example, knowing full well it's only readily available in tob, then you turn around and act like i was saying scrolls aren't available at all
btw, the f/m/t can use all the same scrolls as the blade

>I can see you're not too familiar with how these games work.
you're just a bitch.

>Salty about what? Being proven right over and over again? Or you publicly embarrassing yourself over and over.
class chan argument tactics
completely ignore when you're wrong and exaggerating everything, refusing every counterpoint out of principle

>>3675498
Are there any quickstart guides or guide images for a new player? I just both games on the last gog sale and am going to start tonight.

>>3686536
Don't you mean berserker?

>>3687362
>32k+40k+40k = 112k
>explain to me where the last 8k is coming from?

You realize that you split experience evenly between all classes, right? You can't just stop getting XP at 32,000, it'll continue giving your Thief XP past that. So, to get Mage and Warrior to level 6, you need 40,000. 40k x 3 = 120k.

>why do you try to be so slippery?
Let me get this straight. You want to have infinite money on your build to where every Kobold you fight sucks 2,000-5,000 gold worth of resources out of you, and because I didn't specify "all scrolls" in response to your "all potions" build, THAT is where you take issue? C'mon, have some kind of integrity here. I only said Wish because it was the most expensive scroll I could think of in answer to you announcing you would drink the most expensive potion every single fight.

>btw, the f/m/t can use all the same scrolls as the blade
Yep, thus devalidating the argument. When every fight is insta-kill with scrolls, then your million GP build is worthless. So the Blade wins again. He's either equal to the F/M/T when we're using unlimited money and consumables be scrolls trump potion spamming, or without consumables he blows him out of the water.

>you're just a bitch.
Now, now. Don't be salty because you still don't grasp how the experience system works. Out of curiosity, how did you think that played out? Like you could just turn Thief off from acquiring new XP?

>completely ignore when you're wrong and exaggerating everything, refusing every counterpoint out of principle
What have I been wrong about. I proved categorically that the Bard does everything either equal or better. And when you started grasping at straws and imagining scenarios where you could blow a few thousand gold on every trash mob fight, I used the same logic to prove the Blade out again.

You losing every argument isn't the same as me refusing to admit I'm wrong. You have to actually prove me mistaken on a point.

>>3687607
I just started last week, myself. My advice is don't keep 5-6 characters in your party until you've leveled up a bit.

XP is shared so leveling up is super slow if you have a large party. But if you recruit a guy, their starting XP is the average of your party. Add in time-limited companion quests and things can get really hectic in the early game.

>>3687641

Couple of things to note:

-AFAIK recruitable NPCs are leveled the first time you speak to them, so if you speak to one at level one then come back when you're level five, they'll still be level one if they join you

-if you're going to do this be very wary of what your difficulty/ruleset settings are...because if you let the computer pick HP rolls it tends to fuck NPCs over (example: meeting Xan at level six and he's got 17 max HP)

>>3687631
this is you, basically
you're just trolling me, and ive been too autistic to notice.

Lesson learned.

>>3687678
No one's trolling you, you're just too stupid to understand how the game works. I'll try and dumb it down for you though.

When you get experience and you have three classes, it splits that experience evenly between all three classes. So, if you have 112,000xp, it would split that evenly, meaning:

Fighter 6: 37,333 / 64,000
Mage 5: 37,333 / 40,000
Thief 6: 37,333 / 40,000

In the screenshot of this post: >>3687330 did you not notice how the experience in both tables were split evenly? How do you claim to know anything about Baldur's Gate and be so ignorant to one of the basic most mechanics of how the game works?

As far as your meme image, no one pointed out any of the typos you've made. You can go ahead and try to rewrite the past, but you realize all the posts are still there, right? People can see the entirety of the discussion from the beginning and it wasn't that you were nitpicked over your terrible grammar and spelling, it was that you were plainly outargued on a mechanical and rule-based level.

At least have some fucking dignity and leave with your head held high instead of resorting to memes and lies about how people "ignored" your non-existent arguments and focused on syntax errors.

>>3687751
>People can see the entirety of the discussion from the beginning
Why would anyone subject himself to this desu
you two autists are arguing over bullshit that should be up to personal preference yet you both need to prove the other guy he's having fun the wrong way.

>>3687607
A few tips, having a lower armor class is better. Having an AC of 9 is bad. An AC of -5 is pretty good, for example.

Ranged weapons rule the day in BG1. Kite your enemies, even with your tanks at first. Don't melee until your party is level 3 or so.

Use simple crowd control spells like sleep or spook at first. They are better than straight damage spells initially.

>>3687607
everything kills you fast in early bg1
give everyone you can a ranged weapon. bow, sling, throwing darts, whatever. early melee fights will melt through your low hp characters
enemy mages are also a problem. magic missile, melfs acid arrow, and lightning bolt will almost instagib you and your party for a while.
when someone takes damage while casting a spell the spell fails, so
if you're fighting a group that includes a mage, try having one character kite the enemy meleers while the rest of your party peppers the mage(s)

>>3687759
>pretending to be someone else
>using the same unique posting style

Just sad.

>>3687281
>your response is if for every single trash mob in the game
Dude almost every mob in the game dies in one hit with totsc patch and I bet it's even worse if you're playing the EE. Honestly unless you're playing the original, un modded and un patched (in which case blade doesn't exist) the game is ridiculously easy.

You have enough money to fully consume for EVERY major fight in the game. Blade is inferior flute fucker, deal with it.

>>3687330
>Which doesn't stop it from being the most excruciating dungeon in the entire game, bar none.

Take back door from gullykin, kill ogre mage, and the mage that drops the scroll of fireball is 2 steps away, rest of dungeon is pointless unless you want to RP in which case you're still wrong.

>>3687759
>you both need to prove the other guy he's having fun the wrong way.
Not even. I even like blades; I've said so several times. That guy just won't admit that f/m and f/m/t are basically just as good.

>>3687841
You're half right. F/M/T is a sub par version of each, but a blade is a flat out terrible version of each.

>>3687809
Ah, so you're changing your story then.

So the Blade does more damage for 99% of the game except when you blow several thousand gold in consumables to just barely hedge the Blade out.

Glad we got that cleared up.

>unless you want to RP in which case you're still wrong.
I don't understand the mindset of people who hate RP and play RPGs. Also, if you don't want to do the Undead Knight quest, why even go in there in the first place?

>>3687841
>won't admit that f/m and f/m/t are basically just as good
Because they're not. In Baldur's Gate 1, unless you blow several thousand gold in a fight, the Blade is categorically better. In Baldur's Gate 2, it does everything the F/M/T does but better throughout most of the game. And finally at the end of ToB, it's even better by virtue of being the only class that can lower its AC enough to avoid being hit by enemies.

You autists need to understand that there's a difference between someone saying that a Fighter / Mage / Thief is awful and someone saying a Blade is better.

It is painful watching these debates that got settled years ago on Sorcerer, Ironworks, Bioware and every other forum get played out here for the umpteenth time.

A Blade is better than a F/M/T. A Blade is better than a F/M. However, a Kensai / Mage will, at different points during the leveling process, be better than a Blade and for a longer time.

Arguments about spending 3k gold to try and slip ahead of the Blade in damage are spurious, because for the rest and majority of the game the Blade will be doing better. And in those "big fights" you shouldn't just be auto-attacking anyway, and so it's doubly pointless.

Of all the build arguments, I can't believe THIS is the one everyone got stuck on. An elementary school student could do the basic math and tell you the Blade came out ahead. Even the Crossbow vs Shortbow argument for BG2 has more depth (Spoilers: Crossbows, shockingly, win).

Can we all just admit that multi/dual classes are minmaxing fodder bullshit that are redundancies with the availability of more rounded classes and kits like bard anyway?

>>3687609
that's actually been mentioned already >>3678924

>>3680687
Think I'll just stick to Baldur's Gate trilogy than that SJW infested shite famalam.

>>3687936
As a designer on this game blade is not a good class. I was in charge of the math and statistics and I purposely nerfed the blade.

>>3675498
So, I'm tempted to do an insane difficulty run through the entirety of BG1 and 2, only allowing myself to save the game at autosave points (map transition and I think resting?).

Anything I need to know going in?

>>3687946
Yeah Siege of Dragonspear is trash nobody should be subjected to. But the regular EE is fine

>>3680687
oh is there a new update? I've been waiting

>>3687928
>So the Blade does more damage for 99% of the game
You can keep pretending your blade isn't shit, it is. Defensive spin is useless because ac is useless. Offensive spin ALMOST puts you on par with a low level fighter but not really. Your thac0 will always be shit(and unlike the fighter, your thac0 will suck for the entire game). A fighter naturally gets extra attacks and damage that a blade needs to use an ability for from mastery. When you add in consumes the blade is in the dumpster.

Saying your blade is better doesn't make it better, it sucks. If you want to RP go for it, but saying it's better is just laughably optimistic.

>why even go in there in the first place?
Fireball scroll duh.

>>3687936
At no point in the game does a blade come close to any fighter combination thac0. If you play a bard, you are playing an even crappier version of FMT with a gimmicky spin to make up for it(pro tip, it doesn't).

If offensive spin stacked with haste it would be decent, and still be inferior.

>basic math
Basic math supports the fighter, always.

So... to you people all fussy about how a blade compares to an F/M/T ... here's a question...

Dwarven Blade, Halfing Blade or Gnome Fighter/Illusionist/Thief?

>>3687936
Whoa, you're damn myopic!

F/M/T has huge advantages.

An F/M/T can backstab ... and then go invisible and backstab again.

An F/M/T can put on stoneskin and a contingency, and then slip into a suit of full plate.

An F/M/T can set traps. Besides just skull trap, delayed blast fireball and such.

>>3675498

Minsc was best Minsc.

Squeak.

>>3684175
can obsidian not make an interesting game that's unfun to play?

Kind of a one-dimensional discussion when you factor in that a Bard can use wands, scrolls, and overall more consumables to aid him in fights and reduce rest-time than a Fighter can. Unless it's a Dwarf or H/O Fighter with a bonus +1 CON from something like a tome or Lum the Mad's (for passive health regen to reduce downtime between fights), I'd assume that a Fighter would have a harder time progressing overall.

I'd rather solo the game with a Bard than a Fighter; playing a combat Bard is like playing Link from Legend of Zelda, where you can adapt to and use pretty much anything in the game, and be decent at anything.

Even if a Bard would be outstripped in a straight up 1v1 fight by a Fighter, I'd still figure that a Bard just has more toys. And it really does not make sense to compare the two classes on the grounds of PvP; it makes no sense to assume that Haer'Dalis and Sarevok would somehow feel inadequate to each other.

Also Bards advance faster.

Fan of BG and BG2

Is Pillars of Eternity worth a look?

>>3687936
>Even the Crossbow vs Shortbow argument for BG2 has more depth (Spoilers: Crossbows, shockingly, win).

Wish there was a mod or a way to downplay ToB's intrusion on SoA; being able to buy Firetooth first thing after meeting Gaelan Bayle is just silly when an artifact bow has to be assembled over the course of half the game.

>>3688179
PoE's main problem is that it doesn't have nearly as good combat encounters as BG2 does.

There just aren't that many cool setpieces; it's just trashmobs to get through, time after time, that don't do anything particularly cool or surprising; terrain isn't utilized in fights either.

Aside from that, it's pretty okay.

>>3688187
Awww that sucks
I just came off Underrail which had amazing combat.
PoE's controls seems pretty robust too. Too bad they don't take it as far as they should

>>3688009
>Defensive spin is useless because ac is useless
Only crap Fighters who can't achieve a decent AC think this. Blades regularly hit the game's internal cap on AC with Defensive Spin in SoA, and do so without it in ToB. Something your Fighter will never achieve. And worrying about THAC0? Did you forget spells exist? Did you forget Tenser's Transformation exists? And consumes only barely help in BG1 when they're so expensive that they're very nearly pointless. In BG2 your shitty potions make no difference at all.

As was mentioned earlier, you need to spend thousands of gold to bring your Fighter to a Blade's level in BG1, and that's not feasible for trash fights. And big boss fights shouldn't be about auto-attacks in the first place so they're wasted there too.

>>3688116
Only Humans and Half-Elves can be Bards / Blades.

As an aside, I find Blades to be the easiest way to handle the final Sarevok fight if you're soloing the game without trying to cheese it with Cloudkill or Summons.

First, Robe/Ring/Ring of Fire Resistance to handle the initial Arrows of Detonation that Angelo is going to drop. It just makes it easier than trying to outcast his autoattack.

Now the very first things that happen in the fight are Angelo casting Shield and Semaj casting Protection From Arrows and Mirror Image, this is before the fight starts. There's no sense in pre-buffing for you though. Once you get close enough to initiate dialogue, the fight starts. Use your Boots of Haste to rush back to the entrance.

Semaj will Dimension Door next to you, and Angelo will run up and cast Dispel Magic immediately. Let the Dispel hit you, but Semaj as well. As soon as it lands, immediately hit Semaj with the Dagger of Venom. The DoT will lock him out of spellcasting while you play ring around the rosie with Sarevok, using your boots to avoid getting hit. Angelo will fire off his arrows of detonation which will not only not harm you, but will easily kill Semaj.

From there, it's a question of your placing on who you handle next. Ideally, you'll want to either Dispel or Slow Sarevok to remove his Haste buff and make kiting easier. A simple Blind spell (always overlooked) removes Angelo from the fight permanently. Tazok has no real magic resistance and I've never found him passing the save to a Confusion spell. It's particularly hilarious when under the effects of it he wanders over and beats Angelo to death, but not anything to count on.

Finally, I like to pop invisibility to break from the fight, switch out my Robes for Mail of the Dead, either pre-Haste or Potion it, equip the appropriate rings and weapons, and then melee Sarevok. Defensive Spin will preclude him landing any hits on you and without Haste he's nowhere near as dangerous. It feels much more cinematic fighting him man to man at the end.

>>3688356
I can't ever remember who semaj is supposed to be. Tazok is the bandit douche that Kivan wants to kill, angelo is flaming fist coup and shar-teel's dad, sarevok is BBEG; who is semaj?

>>3687936
>Crossbows, shockingly, win

I've only ever heard that shortbows are best. Source?

>>3687345
Sounds perfect

>>3688194
have you played wasteland 2?

>>3687953
Anyone?

>>3688371
Semaj is the Mage in the final fight. He's never mentioned before the fight and was probably just added to ramp up the difficulty of it. Frankly, it would've made more sense to just make it Winski Perorate.

>>3688385
I think his post was a little misleading. Crossbows on average lose out to Shortbows, but the Firetooth Crossbow (and only that crossbow) is the strongest ranged weapon in the game.

>>3688421
Most of my runs are exactly like that. Max difficulty, minimum saving. If you have a good understanding of the mechanics, it's not too difficult. The roughest parts will just be early on when your characters have like 6-12 HP and enemies are dealing double damage. By the time you hit level 3 or so, it all normalizes out for the majority of the rest of the games, save the really fun fights like the Demonknight, Dragons and Melissan.

>>3688525
>Ascension Amelyssan with an unoptimized party
Jesus. And to make it worse it was bugging out and she wouldn't even trigger her death dialogue after i finally killed her.

>>3688525
>>3688557
So, when is it appropriate to save without being cheap? Normally hate savescumming but also the idea of iron manning this game, especially with permadeath/chunking, seems a little too hardcore given it's 100+ hours long...

>>3688396
No, I heard the UI was bad so I skipped it

>>3688518
>Semaj is the Mage in the final fight.
I thought it was implied I knew this already; that's why I was asking about him.

Anyway, I found this:
http://www.eeggs.com/items/21573.html

>>3688640
assuming you mean "user interface", you heard wrong
I don't even know what they would mean about that; it's basically controlled the same way as BG, except you can rotate the camera

>>3688179
PoE's combat is pretty repetitive. Also, the NPC's are kind of 1 dimensional. Exploring the world is kind of cool, though.

>>3688956
I think Edér is bro-tier and Durance is pretty cool, the rest is absolute dogshit.

>>3675498
>Best <Charname> class and build?
Berserk13->Cleric
had the most fun with this one of several playthroughs, with Viconia and 2cleric team as i use most of the spells available and specialized and utilized a bit with each character's spells, as Korgan and Mazzy provided cover before I turned 14, when i turned a goddamn powerhouse shredding everything in my way to pieces

>Weapon
either Flail of ages (what else with such character), or Crom

>Favourite party member?
BG1 Xzar
BG2 Korgan, i love his accent /Sarevok when you get him

>Waifu?
Viconia, without hesitation

>Most enjoyable fight?
BG1 Sarevok
BG2 solo the most powerful demilichs and their summons with my cleric, later Amellysan

>Most memorable music?
hard to pick, love it all

>>3681001
if by fun you mean broken try dual wielding + critical strike hla

Got any ideas for mid-tier CHARNAMEs that would sport some utility and provide interesting challenges while still having a spot in a well balanced party?

>>3675498
I'm trying to install the Baldur's Gate Trilogy mod for the Enhanced Editions using the big world project but halfway through it tells me i need to point to my Siege of Dragonspear install folder. i dont have that because its shit and i don't want it. How can I skip needing this?

>>3675498
I just installed BG2 from my old CD's and honestly did not expect this to work without problems this easily. Fuck yeah, gotta do some light modding and enjoy a good game for once. All this new shit is so soulless.

>>3688956
really? Sucks. I was kind of looking forward to it

>>3688676
>http://www.eeggs.com/items/21573.html
Well, fuck me. It's amazing how fast I spot names like Niltsiar, Nanoc, Fladnag or Dharts, but I never even picked up on Semaj.

>>3688956
That engagement mechanic made the game shit

cleric/mage or fighter/thief/mage? bg1-2-tob, xp cap removed.

>>3675498
>Best <Charname> class and build?
NG Half-Elf Bard - First, I really like the aesthetic of Fighter / Mages, and second, I like the protagonist having a high Charisma as the group leader. Finally, the Bard is always denigrated as one of the worst classes, and I dig having one of the most powerful beings in the Realms be a Bhaalspawn Bard.

>Favourite party member?
BG1: Tiax "The sun DARES to make Tiax squint! One day... revenge shall be his!"
BG 2: Korgan "Ye lant-gulpin' dirt chute."

>Waifu?
Jaheira. It works doubly well with a Half-Elf and triply with a NG Bard, since that's practically the poster child for Harpers.

>Most enjoyable fight?
BG 1: Tarnesh at the Friendly Arm Inn. No matter how powergamed you are, nine times out of ten his Magic Missiles will one shot you and he'll get that Mirror Image off before your interrupt.
BG 2: Firkaag. The first fight where just letting your guys auto-attack and spam damage spells usually meets with failure.

>Most memorable music?
The Crooked Crane.

>>3689502
You can make yourself unbeatable with both, but as a Mage/Cleric, you won't even need the Fighter levels with the right assortment of spells (I've seen a Bioware forum ironman player turn Aerie into a complete beast), you'll advance faster and have access to more spells sooner.

Also Thief is really kinda redundant for most purposes until you get his great HLAs, but most of his actual utility can be easily replaced. Trigger traps with summons and just Knock locks open, or Crom Faeyr the shit out of them.

Then again, backstab tactics and having more weapon proficiencies overall is also fun, so there really is no losing proposition.

>>3689525
Good points, seems like I can't go wrong with either. Wish cleric/mage/thief was an option.

>>3689520
>BG 1: Tarnesh at the Friendly Arm Inn. No matter how powergamed you are, nine times out of ten his Magic Missiles will one shot you and he'll get that Mirror Image off before your interrupt.

Just run away from him while the town guards kill him off. Can even duck into the temple while he is off being destroyed. The loss of 120 XP is not a big deal, and I honestly always figured that one of the reasons they tell you their policy of not starting shit in their town outright is because they will do their best to uphold it.

>>3689528
Shadowkeeper that in, if you really want.

I can vouche for Thief/Cleric for having an interesting set of niches - he's a toolbox (opens, disarms, stealths, heals, buffs, can certainly fight) and a really high potential backstab. Thief/Cleric, DUHM'd all the way to 25 Strength, stabbing with Staff of Striking, is capable of chipping single-target damage into the hundreds in BG1, and even more so in BG2. An Assassin/Cleric dual-class is more of a thought experiment, maybe (though poison + DUHM'd Sling of Seeking sounds delicious) but if dueled at high level enough, you can stab with Staves for over a thousand damage.

And you get to be a multi-classed Half-Orc (oddly enough) or Gnome, both cool races.

>>3689495
This. Also, constant attempts to balance the mechanic was frustrating as hell. One minute my tanks could occupy mobs, and the next update, enemies could disengage and chase my thief and casters at will.

>>3688956
Booooo....

Damn, I was really excited about playing PoE. I'll still give it a shot but I might just download Wasteland 2 instead. I was offput by the UI but I can probably tolerate better than most.

>>3689531
But that's the point, isn't it? 99% of players died to Tarnesh their first playthrough and you have to make a special consideration for fighting him every time through.

>>3689657
>a special consideration
you mean sacrificing xzar and montaron?

>>3688325

>Only crap Fighters who can't achieve a decent AC think this

A cleric can cast divine spells, something a bard can never achieve. This doesn't matter in the slightest, just like AC. I think you place a lot of emphasis on defensive spin because your kit is so terrible you need it to survive. For the rest of us that made good choices in character creation, armor doesn't matter.

If you kill your opponent faster than can kill you, of what use is defense? You don't seem to grasp this.

>consumes are so expensive

I literally just finished a playthrough with 60k gold left over and a full potion case (evil playthrough with average reputation of 6 to boot). You are lying or an idiot if you think consumes are too expensive in bg1

>BG2 shitty potions

In bg2 when the fighters mage levels surpass yours who needs potions when you always have 25 str and the black blade of disaster?

>big boss battles shouldn't be about auto attacks so they're wasted

A fighter can kill anything in the game in one or two rounds. If you want to RP with sarevok and kill him last go for it the world is your oyster, it doesn't help your argument though it just makes you look silly.

>Did you forget Tenser's Transformation exists?

So until level 16 you admit you are pure dogshit?

>gold to bring your Fighter to a Blade's level in BG1

Fighter doesn't need pots to outdo a blade, it just makes the blade look even worse when you do consume. Since you just admitted you need TT to even compete(which you cant get in bg1) you admit that blade is inferior in bg1( no TT) and ToB( FM gets max arcane spells) so now that you realize you're inferior in 2/3 of the game we can move on to why you're shit in shadows of amn as well.

>>3689656
The UI in WL2 is tolerable, but I dislike how they changed the camera and zoom.

Also, first half of game is decent, but the second half loses a lot of charm. Also, weapon balance sucks. Assault rifles rule the game, with 1 or maybe 2 exceptions.

>>3689779
>there are no good CRPGs

>>3688325
>Only Humans and Half-Elves can be Bards / Blades.
Lolwut? That restriction can get bent. Bards use the thief avatar and paper doll, you've got no reasons *why* a halfling or dwarf bard of whatever kits you choose would not work. Same thing with fighter/illusionist/thieves, the illusionist kit-lock for gnomes works in such a manner that it bypassed the removed option to dual class to a specialist mage.

>>3689768
>AC doesn't matter!
I can see D&D isn't the game for you. I can recommend some freeform RP games where stats don't matter at all. They might be more your speed.

>If you kill your opponent faster than can kill you, of what use is defense?
You kill the Fire Giant faster, but lose 60% of your health in the fight. Now you either rest or begin consuming resources. If your AC had been better, you wouldn't lost 0% of your health and still killed him first. Most people don't need to be handwalked through this.

>just finished a playthrough with 60k gold left over
And averaging 2,250 gold worth of consumables a fight (Potion of Storm Giant's Strength: 1500, Oil of Speed: 750), I can guarantee you that there are more than 26 fights in the game. Your infinite consumable nonsense is debunked by your own playthrough. And all this is assuming you were also factoring in things like Potions of Heroism or Defense.

>In bg2 when the fighters mage levels surpass yours who needs potions when you always have 25 str and the black blade of disaster?
I think you mean Throne of Bhaal. The XP limit was 2.5 million in ol' SoA, and while it's easy to get there, it's a bit harder to hit 6,000,000xp and certainly not something done so early you can make a generalization of having it ALL BG2. But you're right, the Blade doesn't need potions when he also has 25 STR and the Black Blade of Disaster. After all, you had infinite money in BG1 for consumables. I guess I have infinite money in ToB for consumables too. So many 9th level scrolls!

>So until level 16 you admit you are pure dogshit?
No, that was just my answer to you being ignorant about THAC0. Frankly, prior to ToB, you're not going to run into virtually anything that you're not landing hits on consistently anyhow. But since you were pissing your pants about how low the Bard's was, I just thought I'd remind you that for the expansion he has T'sT.

More refutation to come.

>>3689541
Can EEkeeper do that?

>>3689768
>A fighter can kill anything in the game in one or two rounds.
I guess you've never actually played the game. See, when someone mentions "big boss battles" those are the sorts that you clicking attack aren't going to finish. But hey, go ahead and post a YouTube of you beating Demogorgon in two rounds that way. How about the Twisted Rune? Abazigal? I mean, I'm sure you play the game on minimum difficulty but even still, it's not very likely.

>inb4 "I, uh... I meant any fight in BG1!"
Alright, post the Sarevok fight. I'd love to see you take him down in two rounds. I know his HP and AC and what the cap a Fighter can manage and I'm certain you don't do it. After that, show me you doing likewise against the Demonknight. That ought to be rich.

>Fighter doesn't need pots to outdo a blade
Mathematically we proved he does. The Blade outdamages the Fighter with class abilities unless you start spending thousands of gold to keep up.

>you need TT to even compete
See the last post, and really work on your reading comprehension.

>>3689909
>>If you kill your opponent faster than can kill you, of what use is defense?
>You kill the Fire Giant faster, but lose 60% of your health in the fight.


I have to agree with this one. If you kill the enemy so fast that they can't hit you back, it's one thing. But a lot of the fights like the Adamantite Golem (and especially the monsters in Throne) are going to take longer and you're going to get hit in the process.

In RPGs I generally think of invincible builds where you max out your AC / Dodge / Defense / what have you to be unhittable to be a lot more powerful than just trying to maximize attack damage.

>>3688325
>Only Humans and Half-Elves can be Bards / Blades.
Lolwut? That restriction can get bent. Bards use the thief avatar and paper doll, you've got no reasons *why* a halfling or dwarf bard of whatever kits you choose would not work any less than a barbarian dual classed to whatever. Same thing with fighter/illusionist/thieves, the illusionist kit-lock for gnomes works in such a manner that it bypassed the removed option to dual class to a specialist mage.

>>3689939
>you've got no reasons *why*

Lore.

It's pretty important to some people, especially in RPG games.

What is the canon class for charname? Some classes don't seem likely to me, growing up in candlekeep, like druid or berserker.

>>3684175
NWN2 is disliked because it has atrocious moment-to-moment gameplay.

>>3688179
It's better than BG1, but not as good as BG2. It is worth playing if you like the IE games.

>>3689909
>I can see D&D isn't the game for you. I can recommend some freeform RP games where stats don't matter at all.

Hey if you don't understand words I'd recommend going back to school. First grade might be more your speed

>You kill the Fire Giant faster, but lose 60% of your health in the fight. Now you either rest or begin consuming resources. If your AC had been better, you wouldn't lost 0% of your health and still killed him first. Most people don't need to be handwalked through this.

My fighter mage doesn't get hit hit in ToB, ever. If the entire basis for defensive spin being a useful ability is a fire giant then holy shit you are an idiot. AC Is not important when you have mage spells. For someone who plays a character (with albeit shitty) access to some of those, I'm surprised you need to be handwalked through this.

>Your infinite consumable nonsense is debunked by your own playthrough.

I literally just finished the game popping pots like they're candy (which they are). You have a ton of money left over even while chain popping consumes. Are you not looting corpses when you play? I legit can't understand how you're whining about money when you should be close to 100k after durlags tower.

>I think you mean Throne of Bhaal.

Nah I definitely mean bg 2. For someone who loves to RP you sure level slow as hell.

>I guess I have infinite money in ToB for consumables too

Do you really? Because I actually can afford to pop pots for my playthrough, tell me how far you get popping 10k for every fight.

>No, that was just my answer to you being ignorant about THAC0.

That was a shitty answer because your thac0 is still garbage up till 16, odd It's like im repeating myself and you still dont understand that you're an idiot.

>landing hits on consistently anyhow.

Yeah as a fighter. How long does it take for a blade to kill drizzt?

>>3688956
>Also, the NPC's are kind of 1 dimensional
They are still better than those found in the BG games.

>>3689965
There really isn't one. The closest would be Fighter for Abdel Adrian, the Bhaalspawn in the novelization of Baldur's Gate. But it's universally agreed upon that the books are just awful and go out of their way to spit on the source material.

>Abdel minmaxed STR and dump stated INT and as described as being a Chaotic Evil retard
>described as "7ft tall" and "evoked awe from onlookers, lust in women, and fear in his opponents"
>Bodhi goes from the manipulator that orchestrated Jon's fall in the game, to being cured of evil by Abdel's dick in the book
>Abdel naturally uses Yoshimo's sword because katanas are cool and he's all about the nothin personnel
>Sarevok is a high level Mage
>Gorion who? He gets eaten by Korax the Ghoul who ends up more of an important character
>Jaheira hated Khalid because apparently in the book universe, Khalid had not only grown a pair but was using them to fuck other women

>>3689916
>I guess you've never actually played the game.

10 attacks a round, 25-50 damage per hit. Low enough thac0 to land hits on everything. It's not even hard. How bad are you at this game? Oh playing a blade, I can see now why this game is so hard for you. Maybe super mario brothers is more your speed?

>I'm sure you play the game on minimum difficulty but even still

Insane doesn't make the game harder but I still play it anyways.

>Alright, post the Sarevok fight. I'd love to see you take him down in two rounds. I know his HP and AC and what the cap a Fighter can manage and I'm certain you don't do it. After that, show me you doing likewise against the Demonknight. That ought to be rich.

Seriously? I did it like two hours ago. I'm sorely tempted to record it and post but honestly that's just ridiculous.

>The Blade outdamages the Fighter with class abilities unless you start spending thousands of gold to keep up.

Post your blade stats right now and lets compare.

>See the last post, and really work on your reading comprehension.

If you read what you posted you wouldn't be as much of an idiot.

>>3689968
That's a shame because it sounds like it has a lot of cool ideas in it

>>3689979
Damn, only cool part is Khalid growing some.

>>3689984
The main campaign has its moments, ranging from pretty cool to awful. I hear the expansion is great but I haven't gotten far into it yet.

>>3689932
>what have you to be unhittable to be a lot more powerful than just trying to maximize attack damage.

Magic essentially makes you immune to melee rendering AC for arcane casters a useless stat. You will never run out of spells during a fight and if you aren't fighting you can rest.

>>3689975
>Hey if you don't understand words I'd recommend going back to school.
Oh, I understood perfectly what you said. You claimed Armor Class doesn't matter for melee PCs. I stand by my assertion that anyone who so fundamentally fails to understand the mechanics of a game should play something else.

>My fighter mage doesn't get hit hit in ToB, ever.
You keep saying that, but you never specify which spells. I think it's because you know I'll be quick to poke holes in your story. So, c'mon. Hit me with it. Walk me through you clearing out the Marching Mountains. Don't backpedal, don't weasel, just prove your knowledge of the game.

>If the entire basis for defensive spin being a useful ability is a fire giant
Defensive Spin is useful in SoA to tank the likes of Slayer Irenicus or Firkaag. By ToB with Fire Giants, the Blade already has a capped AC without Defensive Spin.

>I'm surprised you need to be handwalked through this.
You actually haven't handwalked anyone through anything.
>"I don't need AC."
>>"Why not?"
>"Spells."
>>"Which spells?"
>"J-just... y'know. Spells."

>100k after durlags tower
Ah, first it was 60k, but now you have 100k. And even still, that only accounts for 44 fights in the entire game. And no buying anything, mind you. No Robes of the Magi, no Daggers of Venom, no commissioning extra Ankheg Armors, no Rings of Invisibility or Mage Scrolls or anything. Just potions to pop on every single encounter - and you can only fight 44 monsters in the entire game.

>Nah I definitely mean bg 2. For someone who loves to RP you sure level slow as hell.
How silly of me. Naturally everyone acquires over double the maximum experience the game allows in the first few minutes. Y'know, if you made your brags more believable you'd be less apt to look the fool in hindsight.

>Do you really? Because I actually can afford to pop pots for my playthrough, tell me how far you get popping 10k for every fight.
I found the money the same way you did. :)

>>3689958
BG2 was bent a bit towards 3rd edition anyway, which throws race/class combination options completely open. Though Icewind dale went even further, so I guess it would be a bit more appropriate to instead look at dwarf and halfling bards and fighter/illusionist/thieves in IWD.

>>3690004
>Oh, I understood perfectly what you said. You claimed Armor Class doesn't matter for melee PCs. I stand by my assertion that anyone who so fundamentally fails to understand the mechanics of a game should play something else.

I understand you don't know how to play this game. I'd recommend making a fighter and seeing for yourself that it's a cakewalk.

>which spells

Have you actually played this game without stoneskin, invisibilities, or mirror image? Holy shit no wonder you think every fight is a struggle. If you're fighting something that can dispel simply throw up a spell immunity. These are low level spells how do you not know about this?

>Ah, first it was 60k, but now you have 100k

I don't have 100k, you should because you're not popping pots like candy.

>game allows in the first few minutes.

If you installed ToB you can go over cap during SoA because it's all one game. Are you playing the enhanced edition or something?

>I found the money the same way you did. :)

By looting and selling everything you get? Bravo, now tell me how far you get.

What is the highest possible ability roll you can get during character creation?

>>3690019
You can technically max every stat you have but if that happens you should go out and buy a powerball ticket. The highest I've ever gotten was 104.

>>3689975
>That was a shitty answer because your thac0 is still garbage up till 16, odd It's like im repeating myself and you still dont understand that you're an idiot.
Alright, let's walk you through this really slow. The Blade starts BG2 at level 10. That's a THAC0 of 15. Strength of a 19 is 12. Enchanted Weapon lasts for a day is 9. Offensive Spin is down to 7. And DUHM is down to 5.

This is the moment I wake up in Irenicus's dungeon with zero pieces of equipment whatsoever. The lowest AC in the dungeon belongs to the Cambion who has an AC of 2, so I only need a 3 or better on a d20 roll. Everyone else is essentially auto-hit.

Once out the dungeon it's a b-line to all the best enchanted gear to keep my THAC0 ridiculously low while enjoying being the fastest leveling class in the game, without dual-class penalties, and having the second highest THAC0 progression in the game.

I don't know where your misconceived notions of Blade THAC0 came from, friend.

If I start playing Baldur's Gate am I going to become as autistic as these people?

>>3690031
We just enjoying arguing we could walk away at anytime.

>>3690025
16 years playing this and i've never seen triple, through i have rolled past a 99
i-i'm sure it was an 18/12 or something anyways

>>3690018
>Have you actually played this game without stoneskin, invisibilities, or mirror image?
Told you to walk me through it and you couldn't. Instead you rattled off a few spells that wouldn't block all incoming damage in the area. You were challenged something very simple. You could've sat there and done a teeny bit of research and maybe cobbled together an actual walkthrough. You'd have been expending limited spellslots like crazy and sleepscumming, but it was theoretically possible. Instead you proved you're just hypothesizing out your ass and don't know what you're talking about.

>I don't have 100k, you should because you're not popping pots like candy.
If you don't even have 100k then you definitely can't be popping potions. Unless every encounter, every single fight you ever engage in drops 2500g, then you cannot pop potions for them all, in which case the Blade was better than you in the ones you didn't. Which, lets be honest here, were the majority of fights in the game. I don't know why you have such a hard time admitting this? It's not like it hurts you. "The Blade out damages me on average, but I have the capacity to, at great expense, consume several expensive potions to temporarily reach just slightly higher damage output for a fight."

>If you installed ToB you can go over cap during SoA
I'm calling you a liar if you're acting like you hit 6,000,000xp out the gate in the beginning of SoA. Even if you XP capped the first game for the most you can start with, you only had 161,000. Even playing the game solo and doing every side quest to 100% completion, you would not hit 6,000,000xp until SoA was complete and a chunk of ToB was done. Maybe if you went to a wilderness zone and spent 12 hours or so of real life time just resting and grinding mobs, but even then... it's painfully unrealistic. You really need to learn to lie better.

>Bravo, now tell me how far you get.
If that was enough for you, it turns out it was enough for me.

>>3690031
There's very decent potential for it.

To be more sure, read some of the AD&D rulebooks, solo through it, a visit the late 90s or early 00s and check out the online community then. Maybe also read some of the related novels, but that's no so effective and the well regarded stuff is very limited, just R A Salvatore and a bit of Ed Greenwood.

>>3690025
Fuck powerball, that shit is for utter fools!

There's no way my luck could be good enough for anything more than Lottario.

>>3690029
Not him, but what kind of items help out your thac0?

>>3690029
>>3690029
>The Blade starts BG2 at level 10.

Ok skipping an entire game, but that's fine lets keep going with it. (blade starts out with 2 proficiency points which means if you dual wield you will miss kobolds on a regular basis with your shitty 18 str and shit thac0 but dw we can pretend this doesn't matter in the long run, which to be fair, it doesn't.)

>Enchanted weapon

You found one in irenicus dungeon? Wow that's lucky, anyways lets compare that to my fighter.

My fighters thac0 butt naked in irenicus dungeon after killing sarevok is 7, when I put a regular longsword in his hand, it drops to 4. When I put a point into grand mastery (one level later) I will only get stronger. Too bad the blade can't go past proficient or you may have a leg to stand on. Also I have 128 hp. Where does your blade stand?

>>3690050
That you can get early in Chapter 2? My three favorites are:

First, I like to go for the Pale Green Ioun Stone. It's in the spider room in the Graveyard catacombs. Since Blades can't normally wear helmets, the Ioun Stone protects against critical hits and the +1 THAC0 and bonus HP are nice.

Gauntlets of Weapon Skill are another good option, especially since they tie in with the Bard class quest that Gaelan Bayle can set you immediately upon at the start of chapter 2. You'll eventually want to trade those up for Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise in Chapter 6 and then the Bard's unique Wondrous Gloves in Throne of Bhaal.

Then I'm a big fan of the Blade of Roses at the Copper Coronet. It only averages out the Enchanted Weapon spell, but it's one less spell you have to rely on daily buffing for (and the Blade is at its best when you're not having to stop constantly to rest), and the sword grants a +2 Charisma bonus which strikes me as wildly appropriate. At least until you acquire both the extra attack weapons.

>>3690043

>hit 6,000,000xp

When did I say I did this? Oh I didn't. That's where that "reading" thing comes into play.

>"The Blade out damages me on average, but I have the capacity to, at great expense, consume several expensive potions to temporarily reach just slightly higher damage output for a fight."

You can wish this all you want but it doesn't make it true. High mastery fighter > blade. You need an ability to stay on par with my passive, and you still come up short. Don't forget that for most of the game you have 18 str while I have 18/90+. At the start of the game I have two points in my weapon of choice and dual wielding. By the time you actually have 19 str and enough points to cap dual wield, I've already passed level 6 and have literally the same bonuses your offensive spin gives, as a passive. If I went kensai or berserker, I would blow you out of the water. Add in the fact that I get baldurans helm and consumes. You just can't compete. I'm sorry bro, your kit sucks. At every step of the game, a fighter is superior to blade stat wise.

>Instead you rattled off a few spells that wouldn't block all incoming damage in the area.

Stoneskin mirror image and abjuration spell immunity will protect you from 90% of encounters in the game. If you need me to tell you to memorize those spells then cast them you need the help of a physician not me. If you've played this game enough you know when to pop consumes, you know which spells you will need and which you wont. The spells I just listed will protect you from all physical damage. If you are fighting a mage that uses death magic throw that in there. If you are fighting something that uses fire throw on some FR gear. Like how much hand holding do you need? Do you want me to tell you exactly what I do for every encounter in the game?

>>3689979
It still baffles me that this shit got authorized.

>>3690052
>>3690052
>Ok skipping an entire game, but that's fine lets keep going with it.
You were talking about Tenser's Transformation which only exists in the second game and how up until learning that spell he was useless. Can you not follow your own conversation?

BG1 is a lot less linear and a damn sight shorter anyhow. I could be at the level cap before hitting Nashkel.

>blade starts out with 2 proficiency points which means
Yeah, yeah. And the Fighter starts out with 4 but can't put more than 2 in one proficiency anyhow. So assuming you used your character editor for an 18/00 Strength and a 90-pt spread for the optimal Fighter, you only have +1 more from Weapon Proficiencies, and +2 from Strength. And when they get the tomes, they'll be equal again on Strength. Or even just when you get your Bhaalspawn power for DUHM - well, technically the Blade will probably be higher, since he levels faster and gets to the break points quicker. And the Fighter won't see level 9 at all for the last buff.

Gear is a pointless debate, since again, the lack of linearity. The Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise are before the Mines, and either class can stock up on arrows in every inventory slot and cheese Drizzt for his scimitars and chain.

The end result here is the Fighter's THAC0 of 12 at level 8 and the Bard's of 15 at level 10. Their 19 STR brings it down to 9 and 12. Gauntlets to 8 and 11. +3 Weapons to 6 and 9. DUHM to 2 and 5. Offensive Spin brings it down to 2 and 3.

Now, your Weap Proficiency pips make that 4 more to -2 and 3, and the Helm of Balduran to -3 and 3. 6 point difference. Of course, even the THAC0 3 is going to hit 90% of every enemy in BG1. But the bosses require special consideration. When you can also cast Magic like Slow and Blind and essentially acquire a +8 to hit and -8 to your own AC, to where you now have a better chance to hit than that Grand Mastery Fighter, and all your attacks do max damage, the Fighter starts looking inadequate.

>>3690092
Yeah, they were clueless. They could have simply made one novel for BG1 and BG2, released in between the two games, incorporating most of BG1 and much of BG2. They could have considerately asked reliable authors like Salvatore if they were interested in handling any limited part of the BG story. They could have made a collection book entitled Baldur's Gate, with short stories or novellas, with even just a small fraction of it relating to the BG story, and even drawn it out over many books.

>>3690093
>you only have +1 more from Weapon Proficiencies, and +2 from Strength

That's not the math I have.
18 str gives +1 to hit and + 2 to damage
18/00 gives +3 and +6 respectively
specialized weapon proficiency gives an additional +1 hit and + 2 damage.


This means a fighter will have an extra 3 hit and 6 damage at level 1 with 18/00 assuming you aren't dual wielding, if you are then its 5 hit. That seems trivial but when your base thac0 is 20 it's an awful lot.

>casting slow on blind on bosses

Really? How many times do you save and reload before one finally lands?

>>3690070
>When did I say I did this? Oh I didn't. That's where that "reading" thing comes into play.
You said you were using 25 STR and Black Blade of Disaster on your Fighter / Mage for all of Shadows of Amn. You don't acquire BBoD until 6m XP on that build. When I pointed out that you wouldn't have it until ToB, you insisted it was easy to get that much XP in SoA. Why are you incapable of not only following a conversation, but remembering what you yourself actually wrote in it?

Remember this:
>YOU: In bg2 when the fighters mage levels surpass yours who needs potions when you always have 25 str and the black blade of disaster?
>>ME: I think you mean Throne of Bhaal. The XP limit was 2.5 million in ol' SoA, and while it's easy to get there, it's a bit harder to hit 6,000,000xp and certainly not something done so early you can make a generalization of having it ALL BG2.
>YOU: Nah I definitely mean bg 2. For someone who loves to RP you sure level slow as hell.

Keep trying to backpedal though you lying dink.

>You can wish this all you want but it doesn't make it true.
Already refuted it mechanically by quoting the best items and maximum stats found here: >>3690093

I give you permission to cry in the shower as you read it.

>Stoneskin mirror image and abjuration spell immunity
Mirror Image and Spell Immunity last for a matter of rounds, not minutes or hours. You get those per fight. And in a lot of fights where you get hit enough times, it requires recasting. In the Marching Mountains, it still doesn't block the elemental damage you're taking, and their high attack per round melt your Stoneskin off. So, not only are you taking damage every fight, you're essentially relegated to sleeping after every other fight or so to replenish the constant buffs you need to maintain to just do what my Blade does without expending a single cooldown.

Do you not see how sad that is? You taking damage and sleep-scumming is worse than me just wandering around the area as is.

>>3690103
>>you only have +1 more from Weapon Proficiencies, and +2 from Strength
>That's not the math I have.
It should be, because that's correct.

>This means a fighter will have an extra 3 hit
Which is exactly what I said. 1 from WP + 2 from bonus STR = +3!

>and 6 damage
Offensive Spin gives +2 damage in addition to capping rolls. So, it's a 4 point difference which is approximately the average of a d6 weapon aggregate.

>Really? How many times do you save and reload before one finally lands?
Against BG1 non-caster bosses, and Slow forcing them to save at a -4 penalty? Once, usually. The problem with kids like you is you think that damage is the end-all, be-all. If it's not Cloudkill or Magic Missile spam, it's no good. Trust me, to the seasoned BG veteran, spellcasting is ALL about debuffing and playing magical counters.

>>3690117
>approximately the average of a d6 weapon aggregate.
what does that mean?

>>3690109

>Already refuted it mechanically by quoting the best items and maximum stats found here

And I pointed out why you need to retake math here>>3690103

You already admitted the best items and max stats favor the fighter did you forget?

>Keep trying to backpedal though you lying dink.
>You don't acquire BBoD until 6m XP on that build.

I thought you said we both have infinite money, what the hell man? Make up your mind!

>In the Marching Mountains, it still doesn't block the elemental damage you're taking, and their high attack per round melt your Stoneskin off.

Gee if only there were other spells or items in the game that protect you from elemental damage! If you told me you had such a boner for the fire giants I would have wrote you a guide.

>Blade does without expending a single cooldown.

You don't have to sleep to get bard abilities or mage spells back? Holy shit maybe you're right that does sound op. Oh wait nvm.

>>3690120
It means if the Fighter rolls more 6's than 1's for damage, he'll slightly outdo the Blade. If he rolls more 1's than 6's, the Blade slightly outdoes him. Or, more specifically, it means a Blade with 1pip in Weapon Proficiency and an 18 STR does as much damage as a Fighter with 2pips and 18/00 STR at level 1.

>>3690117

You still ignored the dual wielding penalty. Regardless.

>Against BG1 non-caster bosses, and Slow forcing them to save at a -4 penalty? Once, usually. The problem with kids like you is you think that damage is the end-all, be-all. If it's not Cloudkill or Magic Missile spam, it's no good. Trust me, to the seasoned BG veteran, spellcasting is ALL about debuffing and playing magical counters.

I keep forgetting you're not playing baldurs gate where sarevok is basically immune to magic with max saving throws. My mistake. Everyone knows how broken blind sleep cleric command etc are. I would love to see you cast two abilities that allow a saving throw back to back on sarevok.

>>3690121
>And I pointed out why you need to retake math here
You did, where you claimed my math of 2+1=3 was incorrect. I wouldn't reference your post though, you come across as pretty dim in it.

>You already admitted the best items and max stats favor the fighter did you forget?
Actually, I pointed out that in just terms of attack rolls, the Fighter ends up with 6 points more. UNLESS the Bard uses his class abilities, then the Fighter ends up with a worse attack score, MUCH lower damage, and a WAY lower AC. But if you think that's a positive for your Fighter somehow... celebrate on, I guess?

>I thought you said we both have infinite money, what the hell man? Make up your mind!
What does infinite money have to do with you starting a game with a 3700% higher XP than standard?

>Gee if only there were other spells or items in the game that protect you from elemental damage! If you told me you had such a boner for the fire giants I would have wrote you a guide.
You were specifically told to come up with a guide to handle a Fire Giant dungeon. Twice. And the end result was you still couldn't even pick general spells to handle the Fire Giants.

>You don't have to sleep to get bard abilities or mage spells back? Holy shit maybe you're right that does sound op. Oh wait nvm.
I don't need to use Bard abilities that have daily limits or Mage spells to achieve a capped AC. The HLA for Bard Song converts his existing one into a buff that gives -10 AC. The Bard Song has no daily cap and can be used infinite number of times. With just standard gear picks, it's quite easy to hit the AC cap on a Blade without ever needing to cast a single spell of Defensive Spin. :)

>>3690127

>UNLESS the Bard uses his class abilities, then the Fighter ends up with a worse attack score, MUCH lower damage, and a WAY lower AC

My fighter fighting sarevok buffed is at 173 hp, -6/-1 thac0 using varscona and burning earth(I only play chaotic neutral) -12 ac(since you obviously care) dealing 25-32 damage and 24-31 damage per hit. What is your blade at?

>What does infinite money have to do with you starting a game with a 3700% higher XP than standard?

I thought you said you were going to chain pop BBoD scrolls. Did you forget already?

>You were specifically told to come up with a guide to handle a Fire Giant dungeon. Twice. And the end result was you still couldn't even pick general spells to handle the Fire Giants.

You mentioned a fire giant, twice, you didn't say, what spells do you cast to clear yaga shuras lair? I can't read your mind and know you struggle with his lair, you need to ask for help anon.

>The Bard Song

Now who is talking about 3mil xp?

>>3690125
>You still ignored the dual wielding penalty. Regardless.
No I didn't, because he's not dual-wielding, dunce. I notice you didn't apply a dual-wielding penalty to the Fighter either. I assume that meant you weren't dual-wielding with him until you got the necessary pips either.

>I keep forgetting you're not playing baldurs gate where sarevok is basically immune to magic with max saving throws. My mistake.
Jesus, how little do you know about this game? Sarevok lost his Magic immunity with the Tales of the Sword Coast update. They stripped that off and instead buffed... well, virtually everything else. He has the only +5 weapon that appears in the game after the update (before you argue, Drizzt's sword says +5, but it only has +3 stats). I get not knowing the specific differences between editions, but don't most hardcore fans know that Sarevok has two different sets of stats pre and post expansion?

'Course I wasn't talking about Sarevok specifically anyhow. I was thinking more Karoug, Tazok, etc. I prefer to fight Sarevok with just a dispel removing his Haste one v one. Much more climatic. Especially since he generally never lands a hit.

>>3690139
Oh and don't forget I get 4 attacks per round to your 3.

>>3690140
>because he's not dual-wielding

HAHA WHAT? REALLY? Holy shit you are retarded. We're both dual wielding. We both suffer penalties, but mine are less because I get two points into it while he only gets 1 to start off. If he's not dual wielding then he flat out loses. Fighter gets extra attacks and dealing max damage with your 1d8 scimmy doesn't make up for it, by a long shot. If offensive spin stacked with haste then MAYBE you could argue, but it doesn't. So piss off you're an idiot.

>Sarevok lost his Magic immunity with the Tales of the Sword Coast update.

Yeah I know, or do you think it weird that I didn't simply say "sarevok is immune to magic that's impossible"? His saving throws are bare min and that's more than save v spells unless he gets tremendously unlucky, leading to me implying that anon needs to reload several times to fight sarevok his way.

Jesus you understand even less than him.

>>3690139
>My fighter fighting sarevok buffed is at 173 hp, -6/-1 thac0 using varscona and burning earth(I only play chaotic neutral) -12 ac(since you obviously care) dealing 25-32 damage and 24-31 damage per hit.
Wait, something isn't adding up right there. Assuming you have the best Armor in the game, the Full Plate Mail (unenchanted), that's AC 1. An 18 Dexterity is AC -3. You're dual-wielding so no shield bonus. Helm of Balduran is AC -4. Ring of Protection +2 = AC -6. Cloak of Balduran = AC -7. Where did the other 5 points of AC come from?

Maximum HP for a level 8 Fighter should be 10x8(class) + 5x8(19con) = 120 + 5(BalduranHelm) = 125. Where did the other 48HP come from?

And for attack bonuses, a level 8 Fighter would have 6 Wep Prof pips, so 3 in TWF, and 3 in Longsword... THAC0 at level 8 is 12, 19 Strength is 9, Specialized is 6, Varscona is 4, Gauntlets is 3, Helm of Balduran is 2... where did the other 8 points of THAC0 come from?

Damage for a longsword is 1-8. With a 19 STR it becomes 8-15. Mastery makes it 11-18. Varscona's +2 makes it 13-20. It's Cold Enchantment raises it again to 14-21. Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise increase it to 16-23. Where did the extra 9-9 damage come from?

>I thought you said you were going to chain pop BBoD scrolls. Did you forget already?
I said if you got infinite money, I would too and buy scrolls with them. BBoD is not a scroll I named, and it isn't available at the start of BG2. It's Chapter 6 at the absolute earliest, and that's damn near the end of the game.

>You mentioned a fire giant, twice, you didn't say, what spells do you cast to clear yaga shuras lair?
Sorry, this wasn't clear:
>Walk me through you clearing out the Marching Mountains. Don't backpedal, don't weasel, just prove your knowledge of the game.
I don't know how to dumb it down anymore for you, the many times it was asked.

>Now who is talking about 3mil xp?
That discussion was for ToB, idiot.

>>3690143
>>3690140
Whats it like to have never touched a woman?

>>3690143
>We're both dual wielding.
Nah, not me. You can have that -4 Attack bonus to where you hit nothing with your offhand. I'll enjoy the shield for AC and that my mainhand still outdamages the one hand you're landing with. :)

>Fighter gets extra attacks
Half an extra attack, which is less than my spin. Sorry.

>So piss off you're an idiot.
Wait, so in your scenario, I hit more often, more damage and have a better AC and you think that put you ahead? Someone here is definitely an idiot. Why would you, at level 1, use a mode of Fighting that incurs a -4 penalty? You don't have magic gear to offset, that's huge. Buy a shield you fucking retard, wait till you get the third pip and a magic weapon to offset it the remaining TWF penalty.

>I didn't simply say "sarevok is immune to magic
>"sarevok is basically immune to magic"
Right.

>>3690148

>math

That's exactly what I was wearing along with boots of speed, batalistas passport, and the following consumes.

Potion of storm giant str, potion of invulnerability, DUHM, potion of power, oil of speed. DUHM is used last as it will stack with pot of str. I had 19 dext before DUHM.

What are your stats as a blade?

>Walk me through you clearing out the Marching Mountains. Don't backpedal, don't weasel, just prove your knowledge of the game.

Wow that was hard to type out. I'm going to sleep but I'll be sure to write you up a guide tmr. I'm sure it will include things like, casting spells, wearing gear that protects from elemental damage, things like that. If you get lost along the way I'll try to include footnotes.

>That discussion was for ToB, idiot.

Ah I see (sarcasm)

>>3690152
What's it like to have larger breasts than most women?

>>3690154
>Half an extra attack, which is less than my spin. Sorry.

Fighters get an extra half attack from weapon specialization, and an extra half attack at level 7. This makes a full attack, and when you add oil of speed, 2 attacks. When you're dual wielding, 3 extra attacks to make 4 all together. I could be wielding daggers and outdamage you if you only have 2 attacks per round.

>Wait, so in your scenario, I hit more often, more damage and have a better AC and you think that put you ahead?

You don't hit more often, you don't hit harder either, you do have a better ac(worthless) as has already been explained all thread.

>use a mode of Fighting that incurs a -4 penalty

Because I, as a fighter, get a large bonus to my thac0 to offset this. My offhand thac0 is nearly zero unbuffed, i'll gladly take an extra attack to hit the garbage early through mid game.

>I didn't simply say "sarevok is immune to magic

>"sarevok is basically immune to magic"

I think the reason you struggle so much is you can't appreciate the subtle yet significant difference of the word "basically".

Casting magic missile does damage now, casting hold person is probably not going to work. Understand?

>>3690159
>consumes
Oooh, there it is. Hold on, let me comb through every scroll and potion in the game myself. I'll get back to you next post.

Also, 19 Dexterity doesn't change anything relevant if I remember correctly. Something like +1 to ranged attacks. Speaking of, how hugely did you min/max here? You already said 18/00 STR, 18 DEX, 18 CON out the gates. Did you leave anything below maximum? It doesn't affect our argument in any way, I just personally feel cheap doing it.

>Wow that was hard to type out.
It was typed out like ten responses ago here: >>3690004

And then referenced again here: >>3690043
>Told you to walk me through it and you couldn't. Instead you rattled off a few spells that wouldn't block all incoming damage in the area. You were challenged something very simple.

And again here: >>3690109
>In the Marching Mountains, it still doesn't block the elemental damage you're taking, and their high attack per round melt your Stoneskin off.

Did you just "forget" the half dozen posts traded back and forth? Because you answered each one of those.

>Ah I see (sarcasm)
Yes, I was explaining that for Marching Mountains (which is ToB only, dunce) that the Blade can carouse through without blowing cooldowns while you have to. By that time, he would have a HLA.

Please, PLEASE try to keep up this time.

>>3690170
>Fighters get an extra half attack from weapon specialization, and an extra half attack at level 7. This makes a full attack, and when you add oil of speed, 2 attacks. When you're dual wielding, 3 extra attacks to make 4 all together. I could be wielding daggers and outdamage you if you only have 2 attacks per round.
Before you get to level 7, I'll have picked up all three pips in dual-wielding and been operating on more attacks a round. And are you STILL pushing this crap where you blow expensive potions for every fight? Come on now. Shall I assume every fight includes me pre-casting Summon Monster III from a scroll and adding their attacks and damage to my own, or can we dispense with consumables?

>You don't hit more often, you don't hit harder either, you do have a better ac(worthless) as has already been explained all thread.
In your scenario, you've got 2 attacks a round, but your offhand is at a 20THAC0 and won't hit anything. My Offensive Spin is 2 attacks with a bonus, so I hit more often. And because my attack does maximum damage, it out averages your one hit. And I have a shield. So yes, I out-everything you at level 1 while you insist on dual wielding without the THAC0, weapons or proficiencies to back it up.

>Because I, as a fighter, get a large bonus to my thac0 to offset this.
Not at level 1 which is the level YOU PICKED for this line of discussion.

>I think the reason you struggle so much is you can't appreciate the subtle yet significant difference of the word "basically".
Ah, so when you said "Sarevok is basically immune to magic" you MEANT "Sarevok previously had a 95% magic resistance but I am not referencing that, or any magic immunity despite my poor choice of words, I'm actually referring to saving throws which are nothing like magic immunity and far easier to overcome, making my statement seem even further from correct."

Well, how silly of me for not seeing that clear meaning.

>>3690174
>>3690170
FIGHTER VS BARD - CONCLUSION : PART I

To begin with, I checked and Potion of Invulnerability does not lower AC, and while DUHM will grant +1 AC from the Dexterity increase, you have 4 more than is possible.

Potion of Power would've increased your HP by 20% of the base 80 for +16HP more, and DUHM raising your Con from 19 to 21 is only +8HP more. You're still 24HP overbought.

Potion of Power would've also increased your THAC0 by 20% of its base 8 for +1.6 (rounded down to 1) point. Raising your STR from 19 to 25 is +4 more THAC0, so you're +3 overspent on attack too.

Raising your STR to 25 adds +7 damage to your attacks, so you're +2 overspent on damage too.

Your final stats with those buffs should read:
HP 149, AC -8, Attack: -3/-3/-3/-1, Damage: 23-30 / 22-29

>>3690276
FIGHTER VS BARD - CONCLUSION : PART II

Okay, since you refuse to stop assuming infinite consumables, I'm doing likewise. And before you complain, you spent over 5,000gp for this single fight, whereas I'm a Bard and can just pickpocket all my unlimited consumables for free. I consume a Violet Potion, Potion of Fortitude, Potion of Agility, Potion of Fire Resistance, Scroll of Spirit Armor, Potion of Power, Scroll of Blur, Scroll of Protection from Evil, Scroll of Mirror Image, Scroll of Improved Invisibility and Scroll of Luck. And then Draw Upon Holy Might precast. Oil of Speed to be used if I feel like Defensive Spinning.

My HP is 6x10(class) + 2x10(con) + 12(PoP) = 92HP.

AC is 1 (Spirit Armor), to -4 (21Dex), -6 (RingOfPro+2), -7(CloakOfBal), -9(DrizztScim), -12(Blur*), -16(ImpInv*), -18(ProtFromEvi*), -28 (Defensive Spin[if I want].)
*Represent penalties to attacks made against me, bypassing AC limitations.

Attack is THAC0 15, 14 (PoP), 13(Luck), 6(25str), 3(DrizztScim), 2(Gauntlets), 0(Offensive Spin) / 2 Offhand

Damage is 8(Scimitar), 22(25str), 24(Spin), 26(Gauntlets), 29(Scim).

Comparing our stats (Defensive Spin in parenthesis):
HP: Yours: 149 | Mine: 92
AC: Yours: -8 | Mine: -18 (-28)
Atk: Yours: -3/-3/-3/-1 | Mine: 0/0/2 (2/2/4)
Dmg: 23-30 / 22-29 | Mine: 29 / 29 (21-27 / 21-27)

>>3690280
FIGHTER VS BARD - CONCLUSION : PART III

With the stats compared, who does it better?

Well, to begin with, Sarevok has 286HP, -5 AC, -5 THAC0, 3APR, and deals 17-26 damage per hit.

Now, with his -5 attack and your -8AC, he only needs a 3 to hit you, and you only need a 2/4 to hit him, so it's basically you two slugging it out until one runs out of HP.

He averages 21.5 damage per hit or 64.5 per turn, which means barring him rolling exceptionally well, you can survive 6 hits. You average 26.5/25.5 per hit (105 per turn). He can survive 10 of your hits.

Just trading blows and not healing, Sarevok defeats you at around half health. This is assuming the rest of his mooks decide to not jump in.

Sarevok would need to roll a 23 to hit me while Defensive Spinning, AND I cast Dispel Magic to lower his APR to 2. He needs to roll a 23 on a 20 sided die to land a hit (IE nat 20 or miss and even then, hope it didn't hit a Mirror Image), while I need a 7/7/9 - more than a 50% chance of hitting him every time for damage that amounts to maybe 2pts less than yours per hit.

This is why AC matters. This is why the Blade trumps the Fighter. Your Fighter could not solo Sarevok trading blows, my Blade could. Your Fighter definitely couldn't take hits from Tazok and Angelo simultaneously, you wouldn't last the round. My Blade could tank them all. After Sarevok was dead, I wouldn't even need Defensive Spin, the -18 would be more than enough for the rest to not touch me, and I could Offensive Spin mop up.

I hope now with this hard data all spelt out for you that we can put this argument to bed.

Since the Bard-Fighter thing is finally settled, maybe we can get back to discussing the game.

I want to make a Gnome and I was torn between a Fighter / Illusionist and a Thief / Illusionist. I think the latter is more appropriate, but there's already one in each game (Quayle and Jan). And so I decided Fighter instead, which will give me an excuse for a high Constitution to take advantage of those delicious shorty bonuses.

But my question is... what kind of build? Does anyone have a weapon style or something that doesn't see much use? Maybe a two-handed sword wielding Gnome? Or something? I'm really stuck on coming up with something unique here.

>>3690098
>>3690092
i always liked the bradley games novella diary thing they had in the strategy guide

>>3690445
Quayle is a Cleric / Illusionist.

Also, this whole discussion only applies to BGT and alikes, I'd wager; for vanilla BG1 experience, I figure the Fighter would have you edged out in some of those, and if we're going with kits allowance, we should be able to factor in the Berserker and such (who is a real gamechanger for all his immunities).

Although I really actually like the playstyle of a solo Fighter - having to painstakingly collect Arrows of Dispelling/Biting/elements for each more difficult fight. I also don't think that the Fighter-guy really meant he would use tons of consumables for all fights; for Sarevok fight, it's the final fight. I doubt this entire arsenal would be needed for fights like Slythe & Krystin, Drasus, or Gorpel Hind encounter.

Alesia_BH's Ironman playthroughs with non-casters stress that it requires patience and refined tactics, but spending gold should be managable.

I'm pretty sure a Fighter can non-cheese that fight, although, as you've shown, the Blade would have an easier time.

As for your question, Gnome Thief / Cleric, as I said above. Otherwise, Thief / Mage types feel like they'd have a more varied playstyle, and you can do stuff like BBoD backstabs. Fighter / Illusionist seems like your typical F/M with more spellslots and less of a pain with lacking Skull Trap or Horrid Wilting.

>>3690663
>Quayle is a Cleric / Illusionist.
Ah, you're correct. Still, Jan is a Thief / Illusionist, and the overlap bugs me. Especially since I know I'm going to have him in my party as a fellow Gnome (same with Tiax and Quayle for their top-tier party bantz). Still, you're correct that I could build him wildly different than Jan's crossbow / spelunking build with an emphasis on backstabs and keep the uniqueness. I think that's precisely what I'll do!

>we should be able to factor in the Berserker and such
For that particular example, Enrage would've helped, but not much. The +2 Damage, AC, Attack and +15HP would still have averaged death for the Fighter at the 7th hit from Sarevok, and would still have needed 11 hits to kill him back.

>I also don't think that the Fighter-guy really meant he would use tons of consumables for all fights
You'd think so. One of my earlier points was that the Fighter might overtake the Blade in exceptional cases if he chose to blow those kinds of consumables, but the Blade would otherwise out-perform for the rest of the game where it was just going in without them. His argument was that there was such an inexhaustible supply of wealth in the game that he could similarly potion every fight in the game so that there would never be a point where he was outperformed by the Blade. Me balking at the sheer cost of that claim is half this thread.

>I'm pretty sure a Fighter can non-cheese that fight
Honestly, I've gone with a Ranged Fighter. Arrow of Dispelling removes Sarevok's Haste and makes him kitable. Then things like the Girdle of Piercing (+3 vs Missiles), Full Plate (+3 vs Missiles), Cloak of Displacement (+4 vs Missiles), Boots of Avoidance (+5 vs Missiles), and so on- you're all but immune to Angelo as their only ranged character. Semaj dies first and near immediately to an Arrow of Dispelling followed by an Arrow of Biting and neither Tazok nor Sarevok can catch you kiting them around.

i'm always on the look out for builds to beat sarevok with that aren't BSing with summons or cloudkill. the blade out-ACing him and the archer kiting him are pretty good. what else do you all got?

>>3689965
human fighter/cleric seems most fitting to me, using pic related

you got combat training in candlekeep, which is also a monastic order (could make the same argument for wizard, especially since gorion was one, though consider that he's a wizard, imoen is a thief, and you're the other two primary classes). The best weapon in the entire game is a warhammer (available to clerics) that makes you into an incredible fighter. All three waifu's are priests or part priest, and jaheira especially is the nature equivalent to you, being a fighter/druid to your fighter/cleric. Fighter/cleric is probably the easiest to solo the game with.

Thing is, if human, you're only fighter x/cleric, and if you go full spec with a weapon, you won't get to cleric in bg1. A half-elf fighter cleric therefor might make the most sense, especially considering jaheira.

>>3690901
Wasn't there something about AO forbidding bhaalspawn from getting divine assistance, would that count divine spellcasting?

Other than Baldur's Gate there's nothing out there I want. Even D:OS wasn't good enough

>>3689974
>better than bg1
fite me

>>3689975
>when you should be close to 100k after durlags tower.
not him, and to back up your argument, I routinely have 100k *before* durlag's tower, after the tower you have so much money it's retarded; no wonder you got robbed before bg2

>>3689976
oh you faggot

>>3689983
ohohohoho he's not responding

>>3690004
>Ah, first it was 60k, but now you have 100k.
I have 100k without even doing durlag's tower, and that's AFTER i have all my permanent gear. There's money everywhere in this game.

>>3690043
>every single fight you ever engage in drops 2500g
these potions last for hours; you can do entire maps on one of each potion. That's a big hole in your side of the argument.

>>3690148
>he Full Plate Mail (unenchanted)
tomoko's +1 full-plate
>>3690154
>Nah, not me.
yes you, you've been talking about dual-wielding blades this entire thread; blades can't even use shields until UAI

>>3690174
>I just personally feel cheap doing it.
it's very easy to have 3 18's and above average everything else; don't act like the blade you argued with didn't have max stats where it mattered

>>3690184
>can we dispense with consumables
you're just mad that blades can't use the potions

>offensive spin
lasts 24 seconds 1/day, gets another use every 4 levels, for the people reading

Hi guys.

Disappointed with PoE, interested in BG. Is BG's combat better than PoE? If I'm willing to put up with a whole lot of jank is NVN2 worth playing?

>>3690984
>If I'm willing to put up with a whole lot of jank is NVN2 worth playing?
Mask of the Betrayer is a great expansion. SoZ has massive potential, but it's ruined by its shitty dungeons and emphasizing NWN2's janky gameplay. Both NWNs have many essential modules that any RPG player should play; usermade content is really good for NWN1 and 2.

BG's combat is better than PoE mostly by the virtue of the encounters actually being well made, and lots of tricky situations against powerful mages. PoE fights are mostly pretty bland and don't utilize terrain, ambushes or anything else extraordinary.

>>3690987
>PoE fights are mostly pretty bland and don't utilize terrain, ambushes or anything else extraordinary.
bg combat is pretty boring as well, they really aren't that different in that regard

>>3690984
I really like nwn2, the main campaign has some dumb moments but the expansions are good and there are custom modules worth playing for 1 and 2.

>>3690276
>>3690280
>>3690290
So you argued for 17 hours just to prove that Blades need a fuck ton of consumables to be better than Fighters. How is that not just proving his point?

>>3690974
>I have 100k without even doing durlag's tower
Do you spend 3k gold on every single trash mob fight down to the lowliest kobold? I'm betting you don't.

>these potions last for hours
Potion of Storm Giant Strength lasts for 10 Turns (10 minutes). Oil of Speed lasts for half of that. Potion of Power? Even less than that.

>tomoko's +1 full-plate
Is a noob trap. It doesn't stack with Rings or Cloaks of Protection, so using that is actually going to net you a worse AC than unenchanted Fullplate and the +2 Ring.

>yes you, you've been talking about dual-wielding blades this entire thread; blades can't even use shields until UAI
I didn't say I would dual-wield at level 1 without the pips for it, and you're wrong. Bards can use Bucklers at any time.

>don't act like the blade you argued with didn't have max stats where it mattered
In my actual playthrough, they don't. Pic related is my FINALSAVE after Sarevok with all books in BG1 already found. His pre-tome stats were: STR 17 / DEX 17 / CON 15 / INT 13 / WIS 10 / CHA 18. You'll note both that that adds up to exactly 90pts, and that my highest stat was Charisma, bro.

>you're just mad that blades can't use the potions
He doesn't need to. Violet Potion + Potions of Fortitude and Agility accomplish literally the same feat.

>lasts 24 seconds 1/day, gets another use every 4 levels
So, 3/day and costs 0gp per use. Thanks for clearing that up. :) It might be the first thing you were correct about all post.

>>3690998
NWN2 is the one game that I played once, will never play again, but I have so many great moments for. There's the trial, owning your own stronghold, and even the final battle- which depending on your alignment- you have to fight all your allies.

>>3691002
Because they both used consumables, genius. If the Fighter DOESN'T use consumables, then the Blade still outperforms. Here are the stats without a single potion or scroll:


Fighter
HP: 125
AC: -7
Attack: 2/2/4
Damage: 16-23 / 15-22

Blade
HP: 80
AC: -18 (-28)
Attack: 5/5/7 (7/7/9)
Damage: 22 /22 (14-20 / 14-20)

See, the only thing the consumables did for the Blade were up his attack and damage slightly. Literally everything else is in-class casting and Blade buffs. The core mechanic of why he won, his Armor Class, is unchanged.

So, whether they're both spamming potions or not using any consumables, the Blade still wins. Capisci?

>>3691043
Since your AC is what won the fight for you, and you didn't need consumables to get that AC, and the Fighter, even while buffed with consumables lost to Sarevok, doesn't that mean that your Blade without consumables beats the Fighter high on potions?

>>3691029
>Potion of Storm Giant Strength lasts for 10 Turns (10 minutes). Oil of Speed lasts for half of that.
i have bgee open right now, oil of speed lasts for an hour
i remember strength potions lasting for 2 hours, so they probably changed it for ee

>>3691029
>Violet Potion
Isn't there only ever 1?

>>3691029
>So, 3/day
at max lvl for bg, everybody

>>3691043
i can get to -9 with a dual-wield fighter, with a shield it's -12
i don't know how the math on +% potions work, but 125 +10% from heroism +20% from power might get his higher hp
he's clearly getting these stats from potions, so your attack and damage values are wrong as well

>>3691085
>i have bgee open right now, oil of speed lasts for an hour
I guess I'll just take your word. I wouldn't touch BG:EE with a ten foot pole on a dare.

>Isn't there only ever 1?
Yep.

>at max lvl for bg, everybody
Nope. At 70,000xp, almost a 100k well before max level.

>i can get to -9 with a dual-wield fighter, with a shield it's -12
I'm sure BG:EE lets you do all kinds of zany things. It's probably why no one brought it up until your post here.

>i don't know how the math on +% potions work
Clearly, but the post you're responding to are how the stats without any potions look. And even if it wasn't, here are the potions he listed using: Storm Giant Strength, Invulnerability, Power, Speed.

>>3691085
i'm always curious to hear peoples answers to this. why do you play ee instead of vanilla or using mods?

>>3691104
>Nope. At 70,000xp, almost a 100k well before max level.
every 4 levels, and you get 1 at 1st level, so 1/5/9
im guessing they dont count the 1st level then

>>3691104
>I'm sure BG:EE lets you
regular bg1; you use a potion of mind focusing and DUHM for high dex

>Clearly, but the post you're responding to are how the stats without any potions look.
no, he talking about his fighter fighting sarevok buffed when he gave those stats, quit being a fucking weasel

>And even if it wasn't, here are the potions he listed using: Storm Giant Strength, Invulnerability, Power, Speed.
he probably just forgot heroism, which is another potion you cant use
just with power, he has 150hp

>>3691117
never got into mods, and ee doesnt fuck anything up, as long as you stay away from neera and rasaad (never encountered any bugs with dorn) and eventually hexxat