/vr/ - Retro Games

What the fuck are you talking about? If you can't finish a dungeon before the 3 days, then you are doing something wrong.

>>3683909
That's not what I'm talking about.

Want examples? Let me give you examples.

>have to go do the whole moon tear thing again when I reach the swamp

>Shooting range mini game (with the love birds)
>changes every day so I figure I gotta win all 3
>spend time to win first two
>tells me I need a bow for 3rd day
>okay.jpg

>photo mini game
>take shots of a couple of things, figure it's worhtless
>take shot of a fairy inside the temple, temple which is in the swamp
>tells me the shot wasn't taken in the swamp
>finally get the clue about his son after acquiring the mask
>have to re-do the sneaking mini game to get back to the son
>get back to him and says the contest has ended, so I gotta re-do all that again

>get the pig mask, find a mushroom
>have to re-do the "bring potion to the other bitch" before it does anything,
>but for that I need to empty the bottle, except you can't just get rid of the mushroom like that

This just goes on and on. Also waiting for a specific time for an event, when that time is far from 6.

All the stuff that stays or that is taken away when you go back in time is completely abritary, and is just made to waste your time, because some other stuff do stay.

This game has qualities but only desperate fanboys would defend this.
The whole time mechanic is a big fuck you to players and the game would be much better without it (or by keeping everything you've done when you go back in time, at least).

>>3683928
You don't have to do the Moon tears thing more than once.

The bow thing is legit, but I don't know what you would be doing trying to win a shooting gallery without a bow.

The Photographer's son isn't the Bean Seller, it's Tingle. Why on earth would you assume it was the Bean Seller?

If you have the pig mask, why would you need to worry about anything if you can just go back in time? Besides, you don't need to get Blue Potion. The Deku in Ikana sells it for 80 rupees a pop.

>>3683928
I've completed the game numerous times and I never used the Pig mask.

>>3683956
You'll technically need to to the moon tear thing at least twice if you are trying for 100%. Once for getting the Ocarina (you can bypass this using speedrun strats, though) and then again for the deed trading side quest. You could do it a third time for the toilet guy that wants paper, but you can also use Anju's letter for that heart piece.

>>3683956
>You don't have to do the Moon tears thing more than once.

You do if you want the heart piece in the swamp, unless you already knew, or that you somehow did all of that without going back in time in between the two.

>but I don't know what you would be doing trying to win a shooting gallery without a bow

Because the first two were with BOMBS and because there are TWO other bow shooting gallery so who would thought the last round would use a bow?

> Besides, you don't need to get Blue Potion.
Again that's granted you know what you'd get in return.

>The Photographer's son isn't the Bean Seller, it's Tingle.
That's beside the point. The point was all the time wasted until "lol contest over"

>Why on earth would you assume it was the Bean Seller?
Because the contest specify it has to something IN the swamp; and that even stuff in the dungeon, which is in the swamp,don't count, so that leaves little possibility. Tingle isn't in the swap, he's in the forest before the swamp. So yeah actually, that's even more of a time waster because the clue is misleading. It makes you expect something around the boat ride.

I can't believe you actually defend this shit to be honest, and you do it badly because you take for granted prior knowledge of the game.
Of course every puzzle is easy when you have the solution, but I'm not using a guide.
This being said, even with a guide, there is still a lot of "fuck you" time wasting granted that you go back to the first day, which is something likely to happen considering it's the only true way to save your game.

>>3683984
The dungeon is in Woodfall, not the swamp. Also, you can get that heart piece by either taking a picture of Tingle OR the Deku King I think it was. Plus, contest guy tells you about the time limit. I think you are purposely trying to find faults with the game.

>>3683990
>The dungeon is in Woodfall, not the swamp.

Which is right in the middle of the swamp, surrounded by the same poisoned swamp water, water which is only poisoned in the swamp.

By your logic the Deku King isn't the swamp either, he's in the Deku fortress, so that shouldn't work either.

>>3683993
Deku Palace is in the swamp area. Woodfall is it's own separate area.

>>3683990
The Tingle piece and the Deku King piece are not the same Heart.

>>3684018
It's been a while since my last play through.

How are Zelda 64 games for today's standards? I only played the SNES one.

>>3684085
They've both aged like fine Chateau Romani.

>>3684085
Classics mate
Try wind waker too

>>3684002
This, I'm pretty sure if you open the map it'll tell you that the Deku Palace is in the Southern Swamp too.

>>3683889
>artificial length
well that is a new one

Majora's Mask is tied for my favourite video game and time mechanics make it so unique and fun.

>>3683928
Sounds like a modern game might be more your speed. Plenty of hand-holding.

>>3684425
artificial fun

>>3684085
Ocarina of Time is a bit bland if you've played LTTP enough. It doesn't do enough of its own thing and while the dungeons are pretty good on their own it doesn't do anything too distinctive with the gameplay mechanics themselves. It's a good zelda that successfully transitioned the series to 3D (as a first 3D entry the game is unbelivably competent), but it's more of a jack of all trades than anything else.

Majora's Mask has extremely good dungeon design, a unique focus on plot/characters/atmosphere for the series, a vastly deeper moveset for Link through the usage of masks, and some of the most satisfying player-based learning in the series through the groundhog day-esque time mechanics the world works under. You'll constantly be improving and constantly be learning more not through the game spoonfeeding the answers, but through your own familiarity and knowledge of the environment. It's very unique and is worth a try if only due to the intriguing game design.

>>3684085
Go play Ocarina of Time right now

>>3683889
I found majora to be boring to be honest, I enjoy the other entries in the series much more

>>3684459
>complain about flaw in a game
>hurr modern gamer

Your arguement doesn't even work. MM has tons of "hand holding", tons of clues everywhere on what you gotta do every single setp. OoT invented the goddman help fairy for christ sakes. When they made the remakes on 3DS they didn't even have to add any more hand holding.

Do Zelda fanboys genuinely believe MM is the epitome of hardcore gaming?!

I hadn't realized Zelda fanboys would actually defend the huge waste of time MM inflincts by having you repeat the same basic tasks several times. I still see no good argument in that favor though, except basically telling me I should use a guide which is probably how they played it.

>>3684102
>>3684096
>>3684529
>>3684523

Thanks for the advice lads!

>>3684746
>When they made the remakes on 3DS they didn't even have to add any more hand holding.

The list goes on

>want to give golden dust to smithy guy
>for some reasons he mentions it but won't take it unless I forge the shitty sword first
>forge it, have to wait next morning
>next morning it tells me he won't take the golden dust because it's the last day of the game
>gotta go back in time
>re-kill the boss of the dungeon
>re-win Goron race
>re forge the sword

Holy shit this game. This keeps happening. I can't believe I gave the benefit of the doubts to all the deluded fanboys who called this game the "masterpiece" of the series.

Artificial length and continuous giant middle fingers to the player - The Game.

Get good, use the reverse song of time (or the sun's song if you want to speed up time for next day), and most importantly, use your brain.

>>3685201

You can beat the game with the regular sword you start with.

>>3685201
you're supposed to fail and retry. this is the main argument behind majora's mask, the constant struggle to push back the clock and do one more thing in time, ever hoping that it'll be enough to stop the moon from falling. I believe I comprehend your complaint from a purely functional standpoint but I wanna respectfully add that I feel it arises from an incomplete perception of what the game is trying to do.

MM is only good when you do the 4rth day glitch and get to the great bay early by bombing goron. You can clear a huge chunk of none time specific items and heart pieces that way. Plus there's no shitty overworld music.

>that feel when I could pull completing the Stone Temple AND getting all the stray fairies AND going to the fairy fountain to get the fairy sword all in one try
>all while the earth was shaking only minutes away from the moon crashing

It was intense, and it felt really good.

But anon, one plays videogames precisely to waste time.

>>3684530
I find the series as a whole pretty boring to be honest.

>>3685232
It's moments like that that make the game in all honesty. Good on you, mate.

OP here. There's no end to this game's flaws.

>Try to get farm my money back by going to the Lottery place.
>they're not the same numbers as they guy I saw on Youtube, so you can't possibly win on your first try, meaning you have to fail and go back in time.
>EACH day has it's own number but I only paid for one day's Lottery.
>Stupid game didn't tell me I had to play all three days if I wanted to win all three lotteries so I missed my day.
>HAVE TO GO BACK IN TIME AGAIN TO PLACE THE LOTTERY ON THAT DAY.


REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-

>>3685437
and no one expected any less from you

>mfw Octorok Shooting Game. Took me at least 1 hour to get the piece of heart

>>3685437
>>3685212
>>3685214

>get good
>you don't have to do it so that makes it not shit
>obvious stupid impersonation

Fucking brilliant defense force guys. Sounds like you're parroting the "brilliant masterpiece" call because that makes you feel like thinking high of MM gives your taste a higher standard or something.

>>3685225
I get what you mean but that doesn't make it fun to do. It's repetitive, annoying, and the punishment is heavy.
Also the game doesn't just make you re-do things you failed at, it also makes you re-do things you already did. Sometimes several times.

Imo the game would be immensely better if you didn't have any roadblocks when you first enter the termina field. So that you could go in any direction from the start. Getting the longshot and the Zora mask early is great.

>>3685484
You should go back to randomly coming up with as many complaints about the game as possible, that was more amusing.

>>3685437
>Try to get farm my money back
>by going to the Lottery place
I don't know why you have to farm money at all if you're depositing everything into the bank before going back to Day 1.
That besides, why not just pick up the Silver Rupee in the roof in the south part of Clocktown a few times?

>>3685510
You're arguing with a troll.

>>3685484
Why are you even still playing? You are clearly not enjoying it.

>>3685017
>When they made the remakes on 3DS they didn't even have to add any more hand holding.
>When they made the remakes on 3DS they didn't even have to add any more
>The remakes on 3DS they didn't even have to add any more hand holding.
>They didn't even have to add any more.
>Didn't even have to add any more.
>Didn't even have to
>have to

>>3685437
>can't figure out how game works
>REEEE FLAWWWW!!!

also

>watching videos of this game on Youtube
>still can't manage
There's no help for you anon. You're just too stupid.

I like this thread.

Anybody with a brain and didn't play MM will see that MM is a good game from the simple responses to OP.

>>3686356
He's not even THAT shitty of a troll, the only thing that gives him away is how vitriolic he is towards people who haven't antagonized him.

It is worth acknowledging that MM has some annoying moments where you have to just wait for stuff to happen. You can grind for rupees while you wait but that isnt especially fun. It's nowhere near as bad as OP makes to out to be, he's either a troll or DSP levels of angry and incompetent, but it is certainly a mild annoyance.

I say this as someone whose favorite Zelda is MM.

Fuck you OP, the game is the best in the series and unique in it's own way.

Hell, i even got it tattooed because of how fucking much i adore this game.

>>3685437
>they're not the same numbers as they guy I saw on Youtube
I hate you

>Literally full price DLC for ocarina of time
>Good game
Heh, right.

>>3685578
The game has its moments, combat and puzzles are fun for the most part.

>>3686491
>>3686171
Like I said already that is obviously not me. Notice how it says "OP here" for the only time, how he takes the worst possible example (everyones knows about the bank before going back in time) and how he mentions youtube, even though if I used walkthroughs like most of people who played this game and consider it a "masterpiece" probably did, I wouldn't have some of the complains I made.

Maybe you're new to 4chan, or most likely you're the bad troll responding to himself to pretend his bad trolling worked.

/vr/ has been sinking to the level of /v/ lately.

>>3686445
>It's nowhere near as bad as OP makes to out to be

Tell me none of the stuff I've said can happen.
Granted that you want to grab every secret on the way (which the game kinda is all about considering how few dungeons it has and on the contrary how much stuff it has outside of dungeons) - I've had to beat the boss of the 2nd dungeon 3 times now, and gotten the moon tear 3 times as well.

Even by keeping the time travel mechanics it didn't HAVE to be like this. The only good defense I've seen ITT is that the flaws are inherent to the time travel thing and that "I don't get it" but that's not true, the game chooses what it keeps and what it doesn't when you go back in time, and it does so in a way that makes you re-do a lot of things on purpose. Why should I even go pick up supplies (bombs, arrows etc) everytime I go back in time when other stuff like masks or pieces of hearts or the bank stay?

>>3686689
>Why should I even go pick up supplies (bombs, arrows etc) everytime I go back in time when other stuff like masks or pieces of hearts or the bank stay?
Only perishable things are lost when you go back in time. In other words, you only lose stuff that can be depleted once obtained.

>>3686730
Don't bother, this guy is like HG101. Anything that remotely presents a challenge will be called a game design flaw.

>>3686730
You forgot to mention how easy it is to get those items back. I don't see why people complain about this, it isn't even tedious.
>roll around for 10 seconds as goron
>full stock on everything
It doesn't even take long just being normal link and hitting the grass, Majora's Mask is very generous with restocking your shit, even in temples.
Some people are going to whine just for the sake of whining I guess.

>>3686689
I'm not saying most of it can't happen, you're just making a much bigger deal out of it than most of it is. It takes like 90 seconds to get the moon's tear. Kind of annoying to redo, but you're freaking the fuck out over the time it takes to cross Hyrule Field in OOT. The shooting gallery thing is something I remember being annoyed at as well, but again, that's like two one minute long minigames to redo. I think these are minor flaws that you're blowing out of proportion. Which is what I said.

And I can see how tons of these little time sinks would build up, but I frankly don't remember many of them, which is why these are coming off more like nitpicks.

The photo contest was on you, you were given a time limit to do a task and didn't do it in time.

Redoing the goron race was a very sore point for me when I played the game as well, but after cooling down I've come to appreciate it. With the time limit from forging you basically have only one day to complete the goron race iirc, and it's actually tough enough that a number of people probably failed to do it in time. This also means you have to beat Goht quickly. It adds tension just like how losing progress you've made in older games adds tension. Do you think Super Mario Bros is a worse game for making you start over after you run out of lives? It seems like the same sort of principle here, and in a lot of MM's tougher sidequests.

I agree it's bullshit that you lose arrows and bombs and stuff when you go through time, and I agree about that being an annoying flaw in the game that doesn't make sense. So fair point there, this and the incredibly shitty mummy well are the only two things I would consider annoying or significant time sinks.

>>3686753
>>3686689
Also, most of this is just typical exploration. If you play Metroid you can go in one direction and hit a wall you can't get past. You'll have to backtrack to that area later. In MM you can start a sidequest and hit a wall, you'll have to redo parts of that sidequest later. It's annoying but it's necessary for free-form (temporal) exploration if you don't want to literally be told where to go (which actually happens for the main story). You seem to keep hitting points where you don't have what you need to continue, and I'd really recommend completing most of the main game first and then doing side-quests, rather than trying to clear every area out just after finishing the local dungeon.

Also make sure you manage your time well. Don't just start over to do a single sidequest like the flower deeds or bomb/arrow gallery. Knock those out as you do other stuff. It's quite easy with the owl warps.

>>3684459

Literally nothing he said had anything to do with hand holding. And OOT introduced modern handholding to the industry anyway...

>>3686753
>And I can see how tons of these little time sinks would build up

That's the thing though, what I'm saying is that there is a lot of them and that most of them are unnecessary, and it's obvious the game wants you to have to re-do a lot of stuff, and re-do them several times. How many times am I going to have to beat the boss of the 2nd dungeon exactly? I beat him first time, then 2nd time for the 2nd sword, then 3rd time to get the piece of heart in the lake once I found the Zora mask, and I know I've goingd to have to beat it at least a fourth time to do the frog quest. Again, this is just an example, and it's completely unnecessary and feels very tedious, with heavy punishment, for little gain every time.

Personally I see no reason why the world changes that get triggered when you pick up a mask can't remain that way forever. After all; you DO keep the boss' masks, so it doesn't even make sense for the bosses to still be there.

>>3686754
Yeah, but in Metroid, once you've opened a path, it stays there and open. If you open a path and a hit dead end, next time you want to go there you won't have to fetch the "key" to open the path AGAIN and re-do open it.

>>3686752
>>3686730
Not everything is so easy to fetch back. Most important things you can put in a bottle, for instance, aren't, that or bombchus.
I know it's easy to get bombs and arrows back; but it's one more thing to fetch back every time. It adds up with the rest. It's unnecessary and it

>>3683928
Have you tried to

GIT
GUD

yet?

>>3685484
All your doing is bitching about how hard the game is and how you don't know where to go next.

>the punishment is heavy

GIT GUD FAGGOT

>>3686872
Nothing I said was complaining about difficulty or not knowing where to go next. The game tells you where to go next so I'm not sure how that's even possible.

You've got absolutely nothing to say in the game's defense other than really terrible trolling so I'll just keep assuming you think MM is a "mastpierce" because you somehow believe MM is obscure or a special snowflake and that it gives you a Grander Taste.

>>3686769
At least you can just warp to the boss and don't have to redo the dungeon. You're going to hate getting the Couple's Mask.

>>3686870
this.

>>3683889
>>3683928
I agree with you OP. I don't think the game is bad, I got every heart piece and every mask,etc but the repetition was fucking annoying. Hell just depositing my rupees before every restart was pissing me off. I didn't like how majority of masks were ultimately just one time use items to get a heart piece. For example I thought the Postman Hat might be cool and give a new questline or minigame reading people's letters about their fears or whatever, but nope, just a heart piece.

I rank it the lowest of the 3D Zeldas, but none of them are bad games so whatever.

>>3683889
>artificial length
You casuallennials have taken things to new depths.

>>3686993
but anon, if there aren't big glowing signs telling you exactly what to do, then it's a BAD GAME!

>>3686993

It's just 4 dungeons - the rest is padded with copy pasted art assets.

It's literally DLC padded out to a full game and you all fell for it.

>>3688440
Yeah, I'm amazed at how much rehash the game has. It's like they sat down, took every single thing OoT had, and thought "how can re use this". There is a "jumping" mini game for christ sakes, they were out of ideas at times.

This being said, I do like some of the stuff they did. Like the enitre ranch or the way they expanded on ghosts and mummies to make an entire part out of them, really expanded them.

I'd rather have that, done well, then have to keep playing more as the Zora. Jesus christ, the entire Zora part was un-fun. The controls suck, the fighting is AWFUL, it reminds me of early bad 3D beat em up like The Crow; and the game knows it, because when you play as the Zora, it doesn't challenge you, instead it only has annoying enemies that are here to piss you off and waste your time; and in return the game throws a fuck ton of supplies because it knows the fighting suck so much.
Goron's fighting suck too, but at least I did have choice to take out the mask.

>>3686993
>buzzword portmanteaus
Holy shit, please kill yourself quickly.

>don't like X
>get mad and confused when other people like X
Found your problem OP: autism

>>3688467
If anything it's the contrary. Taking a liking to MM's mechanics, that is to say taking comfort in re-doing the same small tasks over and over, is something autists enjoy.

>>3688512
with the way that word gets thrown around here, you'd expect everyone to be an autist

so go be an autist somewhere else autist

>>3686923
I think MM has potential, but they needed more development time.

Man, I need to get back and finish this. Was playing through the 3DS remake I actually never beat it as a kid and abruptly stopped and switched games like I sometimes do.

Now I'm playing through OoT, and decided I want to finally get all the Gold Skulltulas. I'll get back to MM eventually I guess.

>>3688447
>>3688440
I'm glad I'm not the only one who always felt like it was a shitty rom hack rather than a full fledged game.


That being said, I started replaying it again for the first time in 15 years and I gotta say it's a looooot better on the 3DS

I beat this game 100% for the first time last year and I agree some of the quests and routine you do are annoying. Having said that I think it is better than OOT purely for the fact the world doesn't feel like a husk.

One huge fucking annoyance was that whenever I was doing the Kafei quest was that my game kept crashing when I got the mask from Sakon's hideout in Ikana in the middle of the lovers quest. Bear in mind this is about an hour quest, so I had to re-do this multiple times and it ultimately turned from a cool quest into a fucking chore (although that was down to my faulty software).

I genuinely hate the rose-tinted views of some games on this board. Even the best of games have flaws, get over it, if your opinion changed someone else's opinion then they were likely a fickle poseur anyway.

>>3689751
> it is better than OOT purely for the fact the world doesn't feel like a husk

Pretty much this.

Replaying it on 3DS brought sweet. savory nostalgia.

Still, I couldn't shake the feeling it wasn't as good as I remember. Yeah, it lame, but I still value the game for its heart rather than its execution.

>>3683889
Nice projecting

more like

majora's fetchquest

xDDD

Found the Gen Z

>>3685201
holy shit, some of your other complaints made some sense, but this is just lacking any common sense

>guy tells you it takes one full day to forge sword
>you need to upgrade it twice
>obviously you need all three days to get it to its final form

how dense could you be to not see this? ffs just reset time, fight the mechanical bull boss again (which is also the most fun boss to fight) then win the race and get your sword forged. It's not rocket science. I managed to get this right on my first playthrough ffs

>>3683889
You raise some.decent points, for example I was replying this other day and I'd
>freed epona
>done 2 spider houses
>done the gerudo fortress
>done pinnacle rock eels

Then... It crashed. No joke. I'll have to do it all again.

However. That aside, it is good, not as good as ocarina or wind wanker, but it is good. For most of the faults you list a simple online help guide would cover you.

>>3685201
you just suck at video games. kys

>>3692318
>game bullshits you at the last step of a quest with no prior warning
>it's the player's fault

You "MM is a masterpiece" fags have zero arguement to defend your "masterpiece".

I seriously believe that all the "MM is a masterpiece" people were kids for whom MM was the first game they played which had NPC that did something other than saying meaningless shit. That and "I just liked the moon being there". And that you were playing it with a walkthrough.

>>3692325
Two sword expansions equals two days. How hard is that to understand? Also, are you that fucking lazy that you can't fight the boss again? Was the goron race that difficult for you?

I'm playing MM at the moment and I beat the goron race in one try. Get good faggot.

>>3692345
First of all, he won't take the golden dust unless you forge the sword first, as if he can't take both at the same time. That's just one other of those unnecessary bs the game came up with to waste your time.
Secondly, if you give the sword to forge at 5am, it will be ready at 6am, so don't give me the "two days" arguement. Again, abritrary bs.

Finally, there was no reason to assume the golden dust would take as much time since he didn't mention that first hand, he only mentionned the basic sword. They are two different things.

Never said anything about the Goron race being difficult. In fact, I never said anything about the game being difficult at all, but somehow all the "MM is a masterpiece" defenders always come down to the "get good" arguement.

It is so obvious throughout the game that the devs intent was always to waste the players time, to pretend this was a long with content, to make up for the fact the fact that there are only 4 dungeons and for the lack of content. Dungeons, for instance, are designed with heavy punishment if you fail the jumping parts, you gotta go back a long way. Or enemies in the Great Bay Temple which pose no challenge whatsoever but instead which are designed purely to waste your time. Having to re-fight bosses when you acquire new power ups to unlock new heart pieces. Having to redo the whole Deku trading every time you find a new one (there is no way you'll find all 4 of them in one set of 3 days; even if you know the game). Having to redo the couples quest several times, or at least part of it several times, to get a different outcome. Having to redo the same mini games several times to get a different reward, etc etc

The list goes on. It is really fucking obvious that this game is constantly designed to waste the player time, so that the reviewers would say it takes X amount of hours to finish it and praise it for its length. Many games did this kind of things, but MM takes the cake.

>>3692429
They took an add-on made 90% of things rehashed from OoT, but decided to sell it full as a full priced standalone game because Zelda fanboys would pay.

So, the add on wasn't long enough, but instead of adding actual content, they added tons of padding and had the player re-do the same shits several times. And all the Zelda fanboys fell for it.

I know this game has its moments and has some qualities, I wouldn't have played it through otherwise, but I'm just saying calling it a "masterpiece", like so many people do, is being deluded by some of the game's mechanics and design choices. Besides, the only arguement I ever hear about the "masterpiece" guys always come down to the scenes with the NPCs... Because it was the first time a Zelda did it to that extent doesn't make it amazing. Plenty of other RPG and adventure games have that, they're not even that special.

>>3692429
>>3692437

shit taste

>>3692429
I think some of your criticisms are fair and I still love the game.

I'm wondering what you mean about enemies in the great bay temple wasting your time though, because I don't remember that. I remember the bosses, the underwater skelly fish, and octorocks so maybe I'm forgetting something, but I don't remember any of those enemies (except for the repeat boss) feeling like they wasted my time.

>>3693885
The enemies prove no challenge whatsoever, they are just small annoying enemies and lot's of them. Even the first dungeon had more challenging enemies. This a direct consequence of how shit the combat is with the Zora.

Some examples: the hands designed to catch you and make you helpless for several seconds before throwing you back. Also, they are placed in a such way, that they are very likely to be in the way in the case you're going around trying to figure out what to do in the dungeon or if you took the wrong turn in the center room (which, considering everything looks the same and considering the strong current, is likely to happen)

Then there are the small skeleton fish, again no challenge, but designed to stop you during your fast swimming just to waste your time. There is even a room in which they respawn infinitely and you'll be surrounded by them if you fall from a jumping puzzle.

Then to make things even better, the Zora fighting is incredibly awful, like I said reminder of early 3D beat em up. Good luck hitting anything with that shit, and while you're trying to, the animations are long, and you'll feel completely helpless after missing with this awful combat. I know "MM is a masterpiece" guys will just answer "get good" to this, but to me that's like defending combat in games like The Crow.

So the safest, and ironically the fastest, way to take care of enemies is to use the "boomerangs", which takes absolutely forever, and which feels like overdoing it considering you're only fighting small threat-less enemies; so that feels like even more time wasting.

The entire Zora temple was just awful honestly.

>>3692437
Do you not understand that the "apocalyptic event time loop" presentation is what makes those NPC interactions so brilliant?

>>3692429
Do you know what the word "arbitrary" means? It's not arbitrary at all for the game to make you go way out of your way to get the overpowered super sword. Do you think you should just find it in a chest somewhere?

>>3693921
Even the boss - after a few hits at him, their way to add "challenge" is to add a horde of small annoying enemies designed to stop you.

I'm not saying I had much trouble with any of this, I didn't have much trouble with much anything in MM after playing through OoT the logic remains the same, I'm just saying it's really obvious the game is designed to waste your time. The game knows you're racing against the clock and really wants you to fail to complete a dungeon in time just to laugh at you.
The game also knows the Zora fighting suck, hence the lack of challenging enemies and the insane amount of supplies in that dungeon.

>>3693931
Ah, that's a funny one. The vast majority of NPCs don't even acknowledge the moon being there for christ's sake.

And when some of them do, it's pretty meaningless to the rest of the their story like when the girl delivering milk says "The moon seems bigger doesn't it? I wonder if it's gonna fall". From this, all the "MM is a masterpiece" fanboys are going to shout "genius storytelling!" and present all sort of analysis on how the girl just keeps living her routine life even on the edge of apocalypse becaue that's all she knows etc etc When in reality, it is this way just because the devs wanted to re-hash both models of the same character from OoT, make two character out of one, and come with a way to make a padding mini game out of each. All they needed was to explain why she keeps doing this with the incoming danger, and add this line to show that she simply isn't really aware of what's going on.

The only NPCs in which the moon really mattters is the Anju and Kafei quest. I bet you were 12 when you played it, and after you used a walkthrough to finish the quest, you cried like a bitch at the ending of that quest and since then you call MM a "masterpiece".

>>3693935
Do you just pretend to be retarded to see me post more do you really not get the point? The point is that MM's idea of a challenging way to get a new sword is to have the player repeat tasks he's ALREADY completed; and that this isn't fun.

>>3689623
I honestly thought both N64 3D zeldas were ultimately underwhelming

First, we have the watered down 3D LTTP rehash in OoT, then we have its shitty romhack sequel in MM.

I really never have gotten how such bland games have gotten popular when better options such as Alundra have already existed time before. Hell I'd rather play its sequel over both Zeldas.

>>3692307
>It crashed
where you by any chance playing on GameCube? This happened to me every now and then with the Zelda Collector's Edition promotional disc. Frustrating af, but god damn I hate the N64 analogue stick

>>3686689
>/vr/ has been sinking to the level of /v/ lately

You made this thread to complain about a videogame. You only have yourself to blame.

>>3694663

This. I didn't even play the game and this shit is hilarious

>>3693942

please write more long winded vitriolic posts about how much you hate this game and the people who like it. I legitimately find this very entertaining.

here, I'll provoke you some more to give you more inspiration. your criticism of MM's storytelling is weak as fuck. almost every NPC reacts to the direness of their situation in a different way, and you are completely wrong to think that Anju and Kafei are the only ones that are noticeably affected by it.

Speaking of NPCs and their acknowledgement of the moon crashing, most of them are in denial, but they know shit gets real by the third day, the one one who pretends it's all fine is the carpenter leader, who bitches about his sons being cowards and running away.

I mean, the entire clock town is empty on the third day.

Probably my favorite NPC dialogue regarding the moon is the guy who's inside that house on the great bay beach.
He gets fucking mental on the third day (and you have to find him because he's hiding in absolute terror)

>>3684085
LTTP is GOAT

>>3694749
>most of them are in denial

That's a nice excuse fans come up with. The devs just didn't care for most NPCs.

>>3685225
>you're supposed to fail and retry. this is the main argument behind majora's mask
That sounds like a terrible, tedious premise for a game.
>Do the same shit over and over until you figure it out hurr durr

>>3694760
>That sounds like a terrible, tedious premise for a game.
A lot of games premise-wise are pretty damn terrible iah.

>>3694757

They acknowledge it, but the denial comes from them not taking it as a real threat until the third day when earth starts to shake.

>The devs just didn't care for most NPCs.

That's a wild guess you're making there, but considering MM has some of the most intricate NPC schedule in any Zelda game, I'd say that's not really the case.

>>3684096
Chateau Romani is a type of milk though.

>>3693942
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mono_no_aware

>>3694756
I liked it too but i'm think i'm going to like OOT more.

I'm not a big fan of the combat but it's slowly growing on me.

>>3694745

He only responds to the posts which directly provoke him. Look at this faglord moan:

>>3694757
>>3694760

He is the king of dickcheese

>>3695886
Those aren't the same person. There are several people in both threads we agree and dislike MM's time wasting mechanics.

I'd love to see OP playing this game to laugh at him

>>3695902
And not that anon, but I think both OoT and MM waste their time with poorly executed gameplay and equally wasted potential in general. Play LttP/ LA or even Alundra/2 if you want what 5th gen Zelda should've been like instead.

>>3695915

I'm curious, what about them is "poorly executed gameplay"?

Also, I liked Alundra (the first one), but the opaque, brown color palette was a visual turn off for me. I prefer Legend of Oasis for a 5th gen 2D Zelda-like.

>>3683889
Just play the 3DS remake anon. It fixes most, if not all your problems wuth he game.

>>3695925
>I'm curious, what about them is "poorly executed gameplay"?

>Enemies/Bosses (with (((very few))) exceptions) in general are much, much more cheesable then even the previous Zeldas, which already have somewhat easy combat to begin with thanks to patterns that are more predictable than ever. The Z-targeting mechanics doesn't really help much either.

>Rupee utilization is rendered almost next to none due to spoils that can be easily received from grass, pots, and shit. I mean you can still use them for getting the occasional potion here and there but even they can fall by the wayside due to the above crippling flaw.

>Area design in general has suffered due to console limitations. Most secrets have gotten more obvious and dungeon design at that point has been pretty mediocre (with at least like, two standing out) thanks to bland puzzle design and mostly linear pathways.

>Item utilization has taken even more of a hit than ever. Zelda games have always something of a problem with this aspect, but the N64 entries are definitely more guilty this time around. Most of the items you've used (save for the usual Bow, bombs, and boots and occasionally the lens) will just do nothing but fill up menu space outside of their initial use.

>The ever increasing usage of cutscenes that are more than like three minutes long and aren't skippable. The pacing of the opening cutscenes in both games alone will turn off somebody that just wants to get into the gameplay quick.I mean, this is more of a personal nitpick than anything but it's still worthy of note. I gotta admit though, most of Shiek's cutscenes are okay.

I think that's a decent laundry list of the problems I have with these games. That said, I still like their music, and the overall atmosphere of both fits their respective tones pretty well. The Gold Skulltula challenges in both provide a decent sense of challenge that is otherwise mostly missing elsewhere.

>>3696001

Ah, but most of your complaints (which I think are more nitpicks than anything else) come from design, not actual gameplay mechanics.

Boss fights are generally methodic and not too difficult, but I don't think they're cheesable either, since they're, precisely, methodic. The only one that can be cheesed, but also could be the hardest one if you don't know how to cheese it, is Dark Link.
The Z-targeting mechanic does help, I mean, that mechanic alone molded how 3D melee combat would be and you can see it even today in games like Souls or Bayonetta. And I know some people insist Tomb Raider had "Z-targeting" before OOT, but TR's thing was a lock-on feature, and it was automatic, not manual, also TR is a shooting game, it doesn't have melee combat. Same with Megaman Legends. Z-targeting is the most important (in terms of innovation and how influential it was) mechanic from OOT and should not be underestimated.
Item utilization is alright, maybe the only item that doesn't get much use is the megaton hammer, but it's crucial on the final battle against ganon however. Maybe I'm forgetting something but I think all key items get their fair share of use. Maybe my only complaint about items is that they fetched the longshot by giving you the hookshot first, but I can bypass that because you get the bow on the forest temple.

I agree about the rupees, though that's a very minor aspect IMO, and I disagree about dungeons being mediocre.

Also, I find the gold skulltula challenge useless. it's a good incentive to explore every inch of the game, but the reward is useless, precisely because of the rupee complaint you made earlier. But I'm not complaining, it's cool that there's more in the game. MM did gold skulltulas better.

At any rate, I respect your opinions but I don't see how any of that makes the 3D Zeldas a waste of potential or why they shouldn't be the 5th gen Zeldas, they totally are and for good reasons.

>>3683889
If you can't appreciate a game because of this just quit video games.
(Also there is a time which make time longer).

>>3696239

There's multiple ways you can manipulate time in MM.

Inverted song of time: Make time slower
Double song of time (play each note twice): Make time faster
Sun's Song: Fast-forward 12 hours in-game.

There's really little excuse to complain about the time thing once you know this.

>>3696473
Double song of time skips ahead 12 hours, sun's song does nothing in MM.

Not being able to speed up time is what I'd consider to be this game's biggest problem.

>>3696037
>but it's crucial on the final battle against ganon however.

Ah, first time I fought him I used the broken bigorron sword and it worked like a charm.

>>3683889
>artificial length
Literally 72 hours days of content

Just beat the Water Temple in OOT.

Awfull.

>>3698609

How many times did you die at the boss?

>>3698609
The way I see it, the Water Temple has four things going against it that ruins it for most people:

1) The corridors all look the same. This point becomes moot once you remember where all the important rooms are, but it's definitely a source of frustration for new players and likely the first one they encounter going into it.

2) Re-adjusting the water levels has you backtrack through half the dungeon. Every time you want to get it to mid-level when it's high, you have to go all the way to the bottom of the central room, go through to the east room, come back up, play the song, jump down, go back to the central room, enter the pillar from the south, hookshot up, and play the song again. Only to find out you wanted it low again and have to go through all that bullshit again.

3) Some keys very hard to find if you don't know where to look. Some of them require searching every inch of every room on every water level if you don't have a walkthrough handy or memorized where they all are, and barring some of those glitches speedrunners can pull off, you can't skip any of them to complete the temple. Now some of this could've been cool if they stuck this type of design into a big, meaty dungeon, but the above two points make this one all the more aggrevating. You're stuck scouring the entire temple for keys in a bunch of bland corridors that make it harder to remember which parts you've tackled already, all the while going through the same rooms if you want to adjust the water.

4) Having to go through the start menu to switch the iron boots on and off. This one is probably the most well-known, but in reality the least annoying one. It does nothing but add two seconds every time you want to go up or down in the water. Unless you have an ultra-short attention span, this one isn't such a big deal on its own, but gets really irritating due to the above-mentioned two points that force you to constantly backtrack everywhere and makes all that time in the menu add up.

>>3698760
Some people seem to think that the 3DS version fixed the Water Temple, but THIS IS UNTRUE. They merely reduced some of the least pressing aspects I mentioned above. For point 4 I mentioned, they completely eliminated having to equip them through the menu by making them a bindable item. It makes sense that they fixed this point first too; it's the one that stands out the most to someone who has intimate knowledge of the Water Temple and could do a decent speedrun of it. Knowing where all the keys are and where all the tunnels lead will require no more than two cycles of water manipulation, so there's barely any backtracking or key hunting involved anymore. In fact so much so that with the exception of the boot switching, all of the other points I mentioned will become invisible and it turns into kind of a decent temple (but fuck that whirlpool room with a rake).

With regards to my first point, they probably had an inkling that most people's first experience with the temple would be intimidating with all those non-descript entrances all over that central room, so they added a bunch of color-coded neonlights to some of them ala snowhead/great bay temple, which sort of alleviates the initial hurdle of not knowing which direction you came from when you get back to it.

All of my other points STILL REMAIN. A first-time player will still struggle through all of these obnoxious issues, this time only SLIGHTLY improved in terms of confusion and time wasted, not in any major way. Anyone trying to argue otherwise either hasn't played the game and is just meming, or knows the temple well enough to only get frustrated by boot switching, which is fucking nothing in terms of time wasted if you're not stuck in backtracking hell and isn't a blemish in the slightest against the original.

>>3698647
None because i had 2 bottles of Milk. But that boss was infuriating, absolute garbage. Dark Link should have been the end boss of the dungeon not that retarded thing with cutscenes for attacks.

>>3698760
>>3698762
This a 100 times plus that garbage boss.
If the corridors looked different and instead of boots we could swim, the water temple would be an ok area. I don't even mind the backtracking and key hunting, i mind getting lost while having to backtrack and having to equip boots again after a mistake.
I was really tired after finishing it.

Also fuck that Well area.I had written a long paragraph shitting on Navi but i remenbered she was the one who guided me to the well because my retarded ass forgot to Ocarina the guy in the windmill.

Other than that i'm really enjoying the game.

>>3698762
>STILL REMAIN
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQuJiTJNJLE

>>3698796
Keep playing. The Shadow and Spirit Temples are up there along with the Forest Temple. Aside from the Water Temple, probably my least favorite one is Jabu-Jabu. On a first playthrough you'll have no idea that you have talk to Ruto a bunch of times to get her to come with you, and if you haven't ignored her and found the blue switch in the back of the dungeon, you'll have no idea where to take her. And then there's the most basic of enemies with a truckload of HP where you'll have to kill like 3 of them for no reason at all just to pad the dungeon, followed by a miniboss that's way too punishing if you don't know how to deal with him, and way too easy if you do. The rest of the dungeon also has this nebulous aspect to it where everything just irritated me, but maybe it's just the constant screen warping and repetitive music.

The well, you might be surprised, is 90% skippable if you just go in there to get the Lens of Truth, but I never thought it was that horrible, especially coming off of the Water Temple's horrible gimmick. Did you fall a bunch of times into that bigass basement and had to climb back up again? That's the only thing I can think of that adds any tedium to the well.

>>3698821
>"stone temple" pilots

>>3698845
glad you saw it

>>3698838
I disliked Jabu-Jabu too, but not as much as Water Temple sincei used saveslates on it because the game i played before OoT was Silent Hill 4 and i'm never escorting anyone again.

Yes, i like to explore everything in the dungeon first so i fell a bunch of times in the holes, i got grabbed by that hand in the ceiling and the fucking spiders blocking my path and crushing my head.

I'm the one who's really at fault for getting fucked in the well, since i lost my patience and concentration after Water Temple.

>>3698760
That last key was such a fucking bitch for me. The first time I was in the room where you get the Longshot, I didn't notice that there was a Song of Time block behind the chest. Then, like an hour later, when I re-entered the room to see if there was anything I missed, I actually DID notice it, but when I tried playing the song, nothing happened. Because of that, I just assumed that I already HAD played the song, and that playing the song is what caused the chest to appear, and so I left the room. What I didn't know was that you can't fucking trigger the block to disappear if you're actually standing ON the damn thing, and it will only happen if you're standing NEAR it. It was the first time in the game that I had to use a walkthrough to get past, and I was so pissed off when I found out that I just wasn't standing in the correct position.

I also couldn't figure out how to legitimately beat Dark Link, so I just spammed Din's Fire and magic potions until he was kill.[/spoiler/

>>3700429
All the times you have to play the song of time to make blocks appear, the position has to be spot on, and that's a flaw to me considering you already had to be desperate to even think of doing that. Same goes with the with the scarecrow song. The only clue is that the fairy usually stands there, where the block will end up, but that could mean something else.

The scarecrow is ton times worse in MM, because you if you go back to the first time, you have to go learn the song again, which goes against the principle the game established with every single other song which once they're learnt once, they're learnt for good. I know that technically it's no the same because you're teaching the song to the scarecrow but it's still bs to have to go there every time, granted you even think of it.

>>3696239

There's literally tons of games that aren't padded. Like retro games. Not counting RPGs though.

>>3684096
You're basically saying it aged like milk