/vr/ - Retro Games

PS2 has a worse video chip but a slightly faster processor.

Yu Suzuki went on record to claim that the PS2 could never run Shenmue II without downgrades.

>>3639662
>Yu Suzuki went on record to claim that the PS2 could never run Shenmue II without downgrades.
Regardless of the respect I have for the man, I can't exactly take the word of somebody who's entire career up to that point has been near exclusively on sega based devices.

>>3639662
I dunno if I trust Yu Suzuki on that.

>>3639662
Yu Sazuki is full of shit, maybe the Dreamcast was easier to work on but there's no way the PS2 was weaker.

The saturn was really good with single rooms.
If I recall it was doing like, near fucking PS2 graphics in some of the beta Shenmue footage.

I just finished Jak and Daxter which is an early "wow those graphics!" ps2 game, and I was thinking if the Dreamcast could have reproduced that game, and I don't think it could have done it.

>>3639665
>>3639756
>>3639761
There were plans to port Shenmue 1 to the PS2 but it wasn't possible due to CPU limitations of the system.

>>3639761
The PS2 has a really terrible VRAM, like 4mb as opposed to Dreamcast's 8mb. This means you wouldn't be able to load in as many textures as on the DC. I think there is a workaround for this inadequacy but developers only found out about it late in the PS2's life cycle. He could've made that statement in the early years of PS2's life when its games looked like complete dogshit.

>>3639662
Maybe it's a matter of architecture? The PS2 was supposedly hard to program for.

The PS2 looks like crap mostly because of it's terrible 480i display.

I wish you could fix that shit or do something to make it better.

Smoothing on PS3 doesn't help as much as it should.

>>3639770
>Jak and Daxter

I'm 99% certain Dreamcast could have pulled off Jak and Daxter.

Shenmue 2 on the Dreamcast is fucking mindblowing.

Soul Calibur is pretty amazing, as well.

PS2 was by far the worst hardware of that gen. Couldn't even do anti-aliasing natively, lol.

Could the Dreamcast have run Shadow of teh Colossus or MGS2/3 as they did on the PS2?

Cmon now guise, cmon now...

Shenmue only looks good because it's got like, pictures pasted on top of flat polygons.

>>3639793
This.
If you look closely at Dreamcast polygons, they're really flat and limited, very blocky. PS2 had more round shapes.

Fable was supposed to launch on the Dreamcast, not Xbox.

>>3639792
Slowdown of the Colossus isn't really a good example, that game runs like shit on the PS2.

>>3639806
It still wouldn't have been possible on Dreamcast.

HEY PS2
ME AND THE VMU WERE WATCHING YOU PLAY RIDGE RACER 5

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxLLhwCx4cM

>>3639771
[citation needed]
>>3639776
Isn't there a Bravia TV set that has an integrated PS2 console?

>>3639820
>he pulls out a gun

The irony is that Sony is the one that took Sega out back and shot it in the head and put it out of it's misery.

It's hard to say, if consoles are popular developers learn the tricks to get more out of them in their later years. It's too bad we didn't get to see that with Dreamcast.

>>3639792
It could. It just doesn't have a dvd drive to load as much.

>>3639820
Jet Set Radio
Grandia 2
Ecco the Dolphin
Metropolis Street Racer
Furballs (got renamed to Fur Fighter)
Skies of Arcadia
Samba De Amigo
Sonic Adventure 2

Jesus. How did the PS2 compete

>>3639820

This just reminded me how fucking dire the PS2's launch lineup was, it really bounced back in the subsequent years.

>>3639776

If you have a softmod you can force any resolution you want and ditch the interlacing, though it fucks with some games.

>>3639837
The PS2 had a bullshit launch lineup.

>>3639820
>VMU
I remember years ago during the winter being so cozy playing Skies of Arcadia, and using the VMU for Pinta Quest. It all felt so fucking comfy.

>>3639813
We don't know that. The DC was only 2.5 years old before it got killed off.

>trannyjanny deletes /org/
>leaves up this PS2 thread

The butthurt is strong in him.

>>3639860
This is a Dreamcast thread, mostly discussing it's power and what it may have been able to do compared to other consoles.

>>3639864
Sorry, but Dreamcast can only be legally compared with PS1, N64, and pre-y2k PC games.

It's like PC Engine and Genesis.
PC engine could display more colors, but, on balance, Genesis was more powerful.

>>3639642
PS2 is MUCH faster but it is also difficult to use due to the large scale parallel processing involved, a blisteringly fast but tiny VRAM, and a GPU with very simple pixel pipelines (although tons of them) so 'special effects' can only be created through blending pixels manually.

But if you look at the PS2 components individually, you'll see that Dreamcast has no chance on paper.

PS2's MIPS CPU at 300mhz has better integer performance than Hitachi SH-4 at 200mhz.

Emotion Engine's vector units + FPU are rated at 6.4 GFLOPS vs 1.5 GFLOPS on the SH-4's geometry engine.

PS2 has 32MB of main RAM at 3.2GB/s (albeit high latency) against 16MB at 0.8GB/s on Dreamcast.

PS2 has 4MB of VRAM at 48GB/s against 8MB of VRAM at 0.8GB/s on Dreamcast. Yes, not a typo.

PS2's GPU has a pixel fill-rate of around 2400 MPixel/s 1200 MTexel/s against Dreamcast's GPU of 100 MPixel/s 100 MTexel/s. Dreamcast's GPU is a tile based deferred renderer, so those are about 3x more efficient than regular GPUs with fill rate on average. Also keep in mind that the PS2 may lose fill rate on blending pixels in several cycles on tasks that the Dreamcast may be able to do in a single cycle. In any case, the gulf is still too large for the Dreamcast to bridge.

Sony found out that developers were only using a tiny fraction of the PS2 vector units power on average in 2002. Something like a quarter. Also VQ texture compression, a built in feature on Dreamcast, was only determined for PS2 in like 2004. The PS2's smaller VRAM is the reason many games aren't 480p. Not an issue of power but space. Developers eventually worked out work with it. Also many PS2 games use a smaller framebuffer cause they are doing SSAA through downscaling as the PS2 doesn't have built in AA.

Hardware AA was supposed to be built into the PS2's GPU but Sony broke it in the final silicon and the feature does nothing.

https://youtu.be/-QKCW4EhI0c

This is still impressive though.

>>3639870
Stop. Go away.

>>3639880
It's not that impressive. Pre-rendered cutscenes don't mean shit.

>>3639874
So basically the PS2 was a complicated mess, while the Dreamcast was easy.

>>3639860
Is the janny really a tranny? No wonder xir deletes HG101 threads.

>>3639864
It's pretty much a stealth PS2 thread.

>>3639891
Can you please shut the fuck up and go away?
I actually want to hear what anons have to say about the Dreamcasts power and early PS2 power comparisons.

>>3639874
That doesn't really help explain why the Dreamcast games all looked really plasticy and blocky and the PS2 actually had smoother, more round shapes and graphics that flowed better.

In general, even in Sonic Adventure 1/2, Shenmue, and Soul Calibur, characters seemed blocky and stiff.

>>3639885
It's real time rendered.

>>3639897
No way that's real time rendered. That's insane.

>>3639898
Did you see what the Saturn could do when it was running beta Shenmue?

Shit was insane.

>>3639898
It's probably all the power of the Dreamcast for just one character. Big deal

>>3639902
It looks really good, regardless.

>>3639893
>and early PS2 power comparisons.
not retro

>>3639889
Yes. Dreamcast has one geometry engine, one pixel / texel pipeline that outputs pretty much finished pixels (particularly due to the tile-based deferred renderer) and a large VRAM pool that is optimized for 640x480 framebuffers with a bunch of VQ textures.

PS2's got a fucking chain of SIMD units, 16 pixel pipelines / 8 texture units (which is a very weird ratio), each of those pipelined produce by themselves largely raw unfinished pixels, and a VRAM that is too small to do everything so memory needs to be shifted around all the time.

I'd actually argue the PS2 is more powerful than the GameCube except at texturing. But you just didn't fucking see it 99% of the time as the hardware is just so fucking hard to MAX. While it is easy on Dreamcast and GameCube.

>>3639874
You left out the fact that PS2 has no texture compression, which is the reason why so many PS2 games look really ugly.

>>3639908
I think we can tolerate SOME degree of discussion, goddamnit

>>3639909
It's just really interesting to think about how much the Dreamcast put out because of it's hardware simplicity vs what the PS2 put out because of it's hardware complications.

I just wonder if we could ever have seen full scale games like Shadow of the Colossus and shit on Dreamcast. Most of the Dreamcast games felt very small scope.

>>3639908
go kill some other thread, fucking idiot, sorry it's not the 10th genesis and n64 controller thread.

>>3639916
No I didn't leave it out. Read my post carefully.

>>3639924
find some other place to talk about sixth gen consoles, cuz this isn't the place to do it

>>3639929
MOTHERFUCKER

>>3639896
It does explain, I think. The extra vector unit performance will give the PS2 a larger number of polygons and also light them better. Even badly used the PS2 still could churn out lots of polygons.

What made many PS2 games look bad (particularly early games) is the poor texturing and low framebuffer image quality. Even the worst Dreamcast -> PS2 port never dumbed down geometry.

>>3639960
hmmm

>>3639837
>>3639847
definitely a quantity over quality launch. paper mario was released the same day and it was a better buy than literally every game here

>>3640158
only good one in there is Tekken Tag, and Ridge Racer V is borderline decent

every else really does suck ass and Ive already forgotten about them after reading.

based namco for being the only decent early PS2 dev

>>3639919
Early PS2 games were as well, if the Dreamcast had lived longer you'd definitely would had seen big sprawling open worlds.

It just wasn't something many devs wanted or dared to do in the 2-3 years the Dreamcast was around.

>>3640217
As Dreamcast was easy to use, much of its full potential was already seen in earlier days.

Same for GameCube where Rogue Squadron was a launch title and the graphics didn't get a whole lot better than that over the console's life. Sure some improvements here and there, but nothing compared to PS2 launch titles vs later PS2 games.

>>3640218
And we did saw games like Phantasy Star and Shenmue.

If devs weren't thinking of making big sandbox open world games then it doesn't matter if all the potential was unleashed.

>>3640158
Thank God™ SSX came four days later.

>>3639642

Hmm, this discussion on vr?

All you have to do is look at the specs.

PS2 was, for the most part, more powerful in most aspects. The gpu setup was lacking some though, and although ps2 had more ram overall it lacked direct vram which really hurt the ps2.

It isn't as direct as cube vs ps2, where cube is better in all aspects (ignoring media size), or the Xbox vs cube, where again xbox is better in all aspects.

In fact a good comparison is 360 vs ps3. Sony fucked their ram up again for ps3, and it allowed a slightly overall weaker xbox leverage over it in the same way the DC had leverage over ps2.


Any game like SotC or Metal Gear Solid 2/3 or GTA 3-SA or Killzone or Resident Evil 4, that used nearly all the cpu of the PS2 and nearly all of the ram as well as needing dual layer discs in some cases, would never have worked on DC.

As a fan of DC, it does have some things better than PS2, like its vga support, but from a technical standpoint it released too early to have the internals to compete with PS2.

Everyone who's butthurt about sixth gen stuff should just fuck off. Yeah it may technically be against the rules, but where the fuck else are we supposed to discuss it? /v/ doesn't care about it, they're too busy jerking off over the new Call of Duty or some shit, I don't know, I don't pay much attention to modern gaming.

Sage because I really have nothing to contribute to the Dreamcast vs. PS2 debate, other than that I'm surprised the PS2 was as successful as it was with such a strange convoluted architecture with so little vram. If they bumped it up to 8MB and maybe didn't break hardware AA, we would've seen the system's potential a lot sooner.

>>3639826
>Insert current year here
>Thinking Sony had anything to do with Sega failing

>>3640346
>Everyone who's butthurt about sixth gen stuff should just fuck off.
Every few years there's one of these. Give up m8ty.

>>3640218
PS2 launch titles looked worse because Sony initially had dev kits with CD media only and their DVD compatibility was unknown. We knew it would have a DVD drive but that was it. Most launch games used CD media and looked worse because of it.

PS2 peaked a year into launch, almost always suffering framerate for those better looking games. Just look at MGS2 vs 3 or FFX vs FFXII Or an earlier Socom game vs their last release. Framerate was halved but it looked better.

Compared to Cube that rarely suffered framerate but kept slowly increasing quality (RE4 being much better on GC).

Compared to Xbox. All you have to do is look at Halo 1 vs Halo 2. Or Project Gotham 1 vs 2

>>3640343
>It isn't as direct as cube vs ps2, where cube is better in all aspects

It really isn't. GameCube is faster at integers, better at texturing and in most respects better at framebuffer image quality, but its T&L unit is too specialized. It's equally fast as the PS2's Emotion Engine in the best case scenario, and considerably inferior in any other. The PS2 is also much better at alpha blending (although this is a particular strength of the PS2 - it's even better than the original Xbox at that).

>>3640158
Yeah the ps2 was definitley designed to be the ultimate normie "home entertainment" machine. I guess sony realized they could ship more units by selling a dvd player that could play sports and racing games over a standalone games system

It's a shame the two good good game consoles from that generation wouldn't be noticed until 15 years after their initial release

>>3640378
The PS2 was a decent console but I don't think it's an overstatement to say it was the beginning of the end for "traditional" videogames.

>>3640374
>PS2 peaked a year into launch

Not at all. As mentioned above, Sony posted a bulletin to PS2 developers in 2002 expressing their disappointment on how the console had been underutilized. They discovered that out of the two vector units inside of the console, developers generally had used 50% of VU0, and weren't using VU1 at all. So that means Emotion Engine was only being pushed at 25% total SIMD capacity on average.

>Just look at MGS2 vs 3 or FFX vs FFXII

I think this is cherry picking a bit. MGS3 was fairly ambitious in producing outdoor environments with foliage and bloom lighting compared to the concrete in MGS2. Also FFX was virtually on-rails compared to the freeform FFXII.

>Compared to Cube that rarely suffered framerate but kept slowly increasing quality

I can't even think of a full 3D 60 FPS GameCube game released after the end of 2003.

>(RE4 being much better on GC).

RE4 though compromised in other ways. The game ran it letterboxed 4:3 with a smaller framebuffer in order to conserve the GameCube's fill rate / memory bandwidth.

It's not really fair to compare it to the PS2 version. RE4 was engineered from the ground up for GameCube hardware - remember the Mikami quote about decapitating himself if it ever was brought to another platform? The PS2 port was a rush job to save Capcom's financial quarter.

>>3640158
I enjoyed Dynasty Warriors 2, Armored Core 2, DOA2, and Tekken Tag quite a bit, so I thought the PS2 had a pretty good launch. In fact, it was the last good launch a console had.

>>3640382
The ps2 and xbox began the trend of video games and game consoles becoming more casualized and having more of an emphasis on being "home entertainment systems"

It was the moment gaming really went mainstream and signaled the death of games being developed for the purpose of telling a story or delivering an experience.

Modern gaming is like modern Hollywood. There's no turning back now, only rushed AAA open world sandboxes and First person shooters being shoveled out to appease tyrone and chad to give them a reason to justify their $400 underpowered PC.

no wonder retro games have become so popular lately when shit is all we have to look forward to

>>3640410
The sad thing is that the industry is too big to crash again, we can only look to indie devs for some hope, and maybe smaller AAAs.

I do like Nintendo consoles still tho, I never cared for them much but I enjoy my Wii U a lot. It's a great complement for my PC.

>>3640421
Yeah it's pretty sad in this day and age how the only really decent combo is PC+Nintendo. Even microsoft is starting to realize that marketing towards console markets is dumb while slowly converting the Xbox one into a PC, whereas Sony survived the ps4 launch on neet japanese otakus with their shitty fapbait games and pointing at the xbox one during its disastrous release and saying "our console ISN'T that".

Even PC gaming has lost its individuality with the only thing PC really being known well for are shitty chinkshit mobas.

I have to say that the wii u was a pretty big disappointment, but the switch is actually looking pretty promising, and it's a refreshing break from the current trend of bullshit that is modern video games. I hope nintendo doesn't die out though, they're the only hope I have for decent console experiences nowdays

>>3640434
The switch is just the Wii U again. Except now it's also a portable. It can't actually compete with the PS4 or XB1, especially with those systems getting 'pro' versions because developers aren't going to care enough to make downgraded Wii U versions of games.

The Wii U had the same 3rd party support list as the Switch does and it seems incredibly likely it'll end up the exact same way, 1 token game from each publishing house then pretending the Wii U doesn't exist when sales are shit.

>>3639836
So it could't. Flop

>>3640450
But I have my PC for the 1-2 decent third party AAA titles that come out every year, so I don't really care if Nintendo doesn't get a lot of third parties, i'm buying their console because they're offering me something I can't have on my PC.

Also I'm a sucker for handhelds, but the Switch isn't out yet so I don't feel comfortable saying I'll enjoy it, I did liked the Wii U and 3DS a lot tho.

Honestly Nintendo should just make cheap consoles and expect to make a profit on low sales, if you know your audience and you know how to manage your budget you can make a profit without selling 80 gorillion systems.

>>3640450
>1 token game from each publishing house then pretending the Wii U doesn't exist when sales are shit.

When it comes to Nintendo, sales are irrelevant. Good or bad, third parties will shit on Nintendo.

It's more of a cultural thing among (western, particularly) game developers, I think. Much like leaning liberal.

>>3640470
>It's more of a cultural thing among (western, particularly) game developers, I think. Much like leaning liberal.
Actually it's a lot stupider than that. Third party is seen as more desirable on other platforms because games get dwarfed because of some shit that relates to being dwarfed by first party and unfriendly practices.

If you'll give me a bit i'll try to look for the translated interview I read awhile back

>>3639775
The system got about 4,000 games. I think it's a lot easier to program.

>>3640515
If the system is selling like hotcakes like the PS2 did developers will eat their own ass and learn how to make games for it.

>>3640470
What >>3640479 is trying to say is that third party devs to think that their games are overshadowed by Nintendo's first party titles on Nintendo consoles. Even tho SONY and Microsoft publish huge games that are usually seen as flagships just as well.

MGS2 was the first game I felt the Dreamcast couldn't have pulled off.

>>3639761
Different architectures. I'm pretty tech illiterate myself, but even I get that there's more to consoles than 'weaker' or 'more powerful'.

>>3640530
nice meme

>>3640569
Wasn't the PS2 version also very rushed?

>>3640601
The Japanese launch title was. It's like the JP version of Tag Tournament which is jaggy out of the wazoo.

Hardcore looks better than the Dreamcast version though.

>>3640530
Nice meme faggot, now show me Soul Calibur 3 for DC
Oh wait

>>3640346
>Everyone who's butthurt about sixth gen stuff should just fuck off.
Tell that to the janitors and mods who made and enforce the rule to begin with.

>>3640530
ps2 looks much better, do we agree?

>>3640392
>>3640374
Didn't one of the later Burnout games skipped the GameCube completely because of spec issues?

>>3640658
They're more likely to ban your ass for "NOT FUCKING RETROOOOOO REEEEEEgksdljfglksjhdlgfkjjRMMMUMMMMYYYYYYYYY!!!!" shitposting

>>3640703
I'm personally indifferent whether they raise the cutoff point to sixth gen (I think they should though at some point), but I've seen legit threads and discussions get deleted because of the "NOT RETRO" autists shitposting.

Look faggots, 6th gen shit should stay off of /vr/, but this discussion is very relevant to the Dreamcast and to leave the PS2 out of the comparison is to ignore part of the story. No reason it can't be discussed in reference to the Dreamcast.

The only thing that I dislike about PS2 is it's resolution while Dreamcast did natively VGA.
People say that the improved PS2 version of DoA2 looks better but when you actually play it compared to DC it just looks like muddy crap.

>>3640686
Yeah it did actually happen. Although many people might not understand why.

It's because Burnout 3 is very physics / dynamic animation heavy, and the GameCube's vector unit is completely fixed function and can't accelerate those kinds of things, unlike PS2 and Xbox.

Which then means that those tasks fall to the GameCube's CPU instead. And although Criterion tried their best, and even used PowerPC assembly, GameCube's CPU couldn't keep up with actual vector units.

Yeah but the Dreamcast couldn't do the kind of scale and scope the PS2 could. The OP was talking about Jak and Daxter earlier. That's not a game I can imagine on the Dreamcast. It had an award for being the first seamless platformer with no loading between levels.

>>3640763
What is microcode? Another term for machine code?

>>3640784
It's basically assembly for vector units that implements functions for use by higher languages.

PS2's CPU actually houses the vector units there. It's the GPU on Gamecube.

>>3640374
>All you have to do is look at Halo 1 vs Halo 2. Or Project Gotham 1 vs 2

I don't have these games.
Does the second versions of these games look better and maintain smoothness or do they drop frames?


I think the pattern (from 5th gen onwards) is that early games on a console have simpler graftix (less polygons, smaller textures, fewer special effects) but higher framerate and resolution.

Ridge Racer VII a launch title on the PS3 outputs 1080p at 60fps.
Most games on the PS3 ended up being 720p 30fps.

>>3640827
The PS3 and Xbox 360 generation was absurdly long, about 7 years, so there was no way they're going to make 2013-looking games using 2005 & 2006 hardware. Honestly I'd give them a pass on this one because it's impossible to meet the demands and hit 60 fps.

>>3640776
>It had an award for being the first seamless platformer with no loading between levels.
Excuuuuuuuuse me?

>>3640158
>AC2
>Gungriffon Blaze
>Tekken Tag
>Ridge Racer V
I think we can all agree the PS2 didn't hit its stride until 2001/2 but the launch wasn't TERRIBLE.

>>3639919
Shenmue 1-2 is your proof it could do big stuff but I get ya. Alot of those first gen games felt small. There were actually quite a few large RPGs on the system

>>3639885
>>3639897
>>3639898
>>3639902

is not that impresive when you know the trick.
those 3d models are just the head or a little more.

also practically no polys on background

>>3640932
It's pretty much the reason REmake looked so good at the time.

The whole system's power can be devoted to the character models as everything else is just 2D backdrops.

>>3640158
>Orphen

Oh fuck I forgot about that game.

>>3639642

Silent Hill 2 was nearly a launch game, and it looks better than anything on the Dreamcast.

>>3640941
yeah looking 3d stuff can be really tricky in some games.
like racing games

those are full of visual shit you cant notice until you stop the car and see what really happens.

you will find tons of repeated models and textures. grayscale textures. also practically everything is a flat image. like people, trees, signals. lights. blured textures for stuff on planned high speed sections.

sky reflection on the car is a damn texture that's not a reflection at all.

etc

>>3640956
>posting the pc version

Why is this thread still up? Why is it full of defensive PS2 fanboy /v/irgins? Why do they keep trying to shit up /vr/ with their non-retro faggotry?

The world may never know.

>>3640993
Why don't you shut the fuck up? There's actual discussion occurring here, you're adding jack shit to the thread except shitposting.

>>3640962
>sky reflection on the car is a damn texture that's not a reflection at all.
Do you expect ray tracing or something? Of course it's a fucking texture - it's called environment mapping.

>>3640926
Skies of Arcadia is one of the biggest RPGs I can think of for Dreamcast, and the areas were still fairly small in scale and scope. Even the massive sized ships/cities had a lot of smaller loaded areas.

>>3640993
This thread has absolutely nothing in common with /v/ discussions or threads. You need to get your head checked.

>>3640997
Cry more, faggot.

>>3641006
And you need to head back to >>>/v/

Remember to sage and report for violating the sticky.

Mods are shit at their job.

>>3641017
>>3641020
Please stop falseflagging to make anti 6th gen posters look bad. Thank you.

>>3639642
>Do we know
When you say it, no. When the rest of us say it, yes.

>>3639842
Never knew about this. I have Free McBoot, what do I need to do to change the resolution?

>>3641274
Please keep the thread on topic.

Remember it's about the difference of power between Dreamcast and PS2, not PS2 itself.

I'm sure you didn't want to derail the thread and turn it into a veiled 6th gen one so please be more cautious next time.

Have a nice day,

anon

>>3641274

The app's called GSM, you can find versions of Open PS2 Loader with it built in if you have a hard drive and I'm sure there's an ESR version somewhere if you're playing copies. Like I said it doesn't work for everything, but it can make some games look a damn sight better.

>>3641282

>Sabotaging your own thread for 'muh topic'

He asked a question, I gave him an answer. /vr/ is such a autistic fucking board, god damn.

>>3639642
4MB VRAM crippled PS2, most Dreamcast games were superior to their PS2 siblings. See DOA2:Hardcore & Tekken Jag Team.

>>3641318
I'm sorry but we must protect the status quo.

>>3641346
what about headhunter?

Speaking of power: SNES or Genesis? SNES's CPU is 1.5 MIPS and the Genesis CPU is 1.4 MIPS. The Genesis has a secondary z80 processor for sound though, while the SNES does sound on the main CPU.

>>3641017
This is /b/ tier shitposting now.

>>3641512
The Genesis is much faster.

>>3641020
holy shit would you fuck off?
OP made this thread to discuss the theoretical power of the Dreamcast.

>>3641516
Is it? I does have a lot more registers so you can do a lot of program-level optimizations that a simple MIPS number doesn't take into account, I suppose.

>>3641521
Oh, apparently the Genesis had way faster DMA than the SNES. I could see that being a major advantage since DMA can cut into a lot of your processing time on these consoles.

>>3640410

>PS2 and Xbox is went vydia went mainstream
>Muh nostalgia and muh childhood

Not really, Nintendo a toys company in the NES era was worth more money than Sony an electronic devices company and in that era the video game market was already larger than Hollywood.

Nintendo dominated the popular culture from the mid-80 to the mid 90s, Mario was more popular than Mickey Mouse and Santa Clause, they made an insane amount of money not only with the games but with the rest of Nintendo related merchandise than ranged from cereal to toys, tv shows and so on.

source- the book "Game Over" 1999 edition

>>3641554
You are high as fuck. Nintendo was never worth more than Sony and the gaming audience in the 80s was nowhere near Hollywood.

Source: reality.

>>3641559
video games have been mainstream culture since the late 70s, however.

>>3641567
no
source: actually lived throught the 80s

>>3640470
>It's more of a cultural thing among (western, particularly) game developers, I think. Much like leaning liberal

Are you aware Japanese developers also hate working with Nintendo?, the big N has a long history of being difficult to work with for third parties because of their "my way or the highway" policies.

why do you think most Japanese devs dropped Nintendo to work on games for the Saturn and the PSX and the N64 only got early support from western publishers like Midway or Acclaim?

The PS VITA for example gets better 3rd party support on Nipland than the 3DS even if the 3DS has a much larger user base.

>>3640776
>>3641000
Like I've said earlier, the Dreamcast lived in an era where game DESIGN choices were different, if it had been relevant well into the 2000s like the PS2 was, we would of seen bigger and more open worlds. Not to say there weren't any on the DC to begin with.

Also not having loading screens is not the same as loading everything at once. Games with no loading screens just hide their loading times somewhere else; Either loading far off in the distance, during cutscenes, or other slower parts of gameplay.

>>3641559
Actually he's not wrong, I can't find specific numbers of back then, but Nintendo has been worth more than SONY multiple times trough their history, including as recently as this year after the Pokemon GO meltdown. Not by a huge margin tho.

But c'mon nobody who wasn't a kid played Nintendo games or any games back in the 80s and 90s, Tyrone and Chad were too busy drinking beer, smoking the weed and doing the sex to play kiddie games, it wasn't until after SONY started to market the PS2 as a multimedia device that videogame consoles became truly mainstream. Also companies started to make games more accessible to everyone so now you didn't actually had to expend time or effort to beat a game.

>>3641578
so you must know about all the video game songs and cartoons and food stuffs and everything

Ecco had a port for the PS2
it was much better.

>>3640515
Then you have no idea what you're talking about lol. The Dreamcast had a pretty standard CPU and GPU. A good amount of VRAM, and a simple APU. In comparison the ps2 is a collection of custom chips and hold overs from the ps1 organized in a very specific fashion designed to be used in a specific way that few developers were accustomed to. It has a primary CPU core, 2 vector coprocessors, one with 2 different modes, a very wide but barebones "GPU" with no T&L support, a ps1 cpu acting as an I/O controller, a programmable 10 channel DMA unit and an APU that was also a holdover from the ps1. It has twice the main RAM as the Dreamcast, but half the VRAM, meaning you have to constantly be swapping data in and out. It has no texture compression, so you had to write your own VU decompression routines out go without. Then there was the incomplete mipmapping support, spotty anti aliasing.

Good system, not an easy one though.


>>3641512
Lol no it doesn't. The APU is literally a separate coprocessor with a 6502.

>>3640434
I just looked up moba and still don't really get it. Wtf happened to games man

>>3641512
The SNES CPU MIPS rating of 1.5 MIPS is with 8-bit instructions. The Genesis CPU MIPS rating of 1.4 is with 16-bit instructions.

Keep that in mind.

>>3639761

yeah he's full of shit on this one. he either was obligated to say that or he quickly looked at the ps2 specs without necessarily understanding how it was meant to be used.The PS2 has more memory, faster cpu(s), can push way more polygons. Even the vram deficit can be overcome by using the hardware as intended.

>>3639771
that's complete bs. the dreamcast SH-4 doesn't nearly compete with the emotion engine.

>>3639774
the trick is to dma in textures and models into vram as needed. metal gear solid 2, an early ps2 game, uses around 12MB worth of textures per frame. i expect games like jak, ratchet, gow, etc further exceed that

>>3641727
MOBAS are meme games that are only popular because of chinkshit and valve shilling the fuck out of them with multimillion dollar prize pools at tourneys.

They're actually complete garbage and aren't fun at all. The only people who enjoy them are asians and 13 year olds who think they're smart because they play games that require "strategy"

PC gaming is a meme now and valve is to blame. Fuck you Valve you dumb motherfuckers

>>3642094
>Fuck you Valve you dumb motherfuckers

nigga knows

>>3641671

>much easier

Fixed that for you.

>>3642094

>PC gaming is defined by one game

k

>>3642174
shut up you valve-shilling, cum-guzzling, cock-smoking motherfucker

>>3642180
PC gaming is known for 3 things these days

MOBAS
Shitty console ports
and an oversaturation of shitty indie games due to things like steam green light

MOBAs might not represent all of PC gaming but they sure as hell represent a massive portion of the PC gaymur userbase. TI6 bought in an 18 million dollar prize pool and DOTA 2 is the most played game on steam 90% of the time and if Riot were to reveal their numbers even excluding chinkshit they'd definitely be numbers to rival DOTA. The only thing that comes remotely close to that is CSGO which is still miniscule compared to MOBAfags, and that's only thanks to shitty twitch streamers spending thousands of dollars on crates to get themselves a shitty dragon lore awp skin.

You're never going to get a game like Deus Ex, System shock 2 or Fallout ever again because the average modern PC gaymur is a 13 year old with a laptop or an overpriced prebuilt rig trying to be the next pewdiepie, and they just don't care about those types of games.

Even the games made in the vain of old PC games like Wasteland 2 are a mere blip on the map of popular shitty casual games and gaming culture that makes the majority of the modern PC games industry

>>3642339
meant to reply to >>3642174

>>3642094
PC gaming it's basically ValveStation now.
And there's still some idiots who say this is the best time for PC gaming.

>>3642094
PC gaming is basically ValveStation now.
And there's still some idiots who say this is the best time for PC gaming.

>>3640375
Can you reach for straws any harder?

The Gamecube and XBox completely outclassed the PS2.

>>3641915
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=r20tURR4eMs

>>3642414
Hardware speaking: XBOX/GC/PS2/DC
It's the only truth, i'm sorry Segafags

>>3642383
It is if you prefer competitive multiplayer over singleplayer games.

MOBAs have been around since the late 90s, btw. Ever heard of Aeon of Strife, underageb&?

>>3642414
Xbox did at everything except alpha blending. As good as the Xbox was, it had nothing even close to as fast as the PS2's VRAM and speed of VRAM is the limiting factor for alpha blending.

PS2 hardware had several advantages over the GameCube (though they both have their strengths) but I can understand if you don't follow what I wrote above because it is a little
complicated. Most people will look at the 300mhz Emotion Engine and the 475mhz PowerPC and conclude the latter is more "powerful", but of course the two are so radically different which renders the clock speed comparison utterly meaningless.

Compounding the confusion is that many PS2 games look terrible and the console has few games that support 480p. But of course there sneak through a few tidbits that Burnout 3 was not on GameCube due to a specifications issue.

In any case, I can easily declare that the GameCube was the better designed hardware . Nintendo's objective when designing the system was to create a console with PS2-class performance that was developer friendly and very cheap to manufacture. They succeeded on both fronts while Sony's console squandered much of its market success on high manufacturing costs and gave every developer serious pains and headaches.

>>3642501
Everyone with 2 brain cells knows MOBAs are as ancient as RTS games themselves, but the fact of the matter was that they didn't become a mainstream cancer that has enveloped PC gaming ever since valve started shilling it through esports and riot offered it to chinks as a starcraft alternative.

>>3642383
>ValveStation
>Valve hasn't released a game since 2011-2012 (Dota 2 Beta), arguably since 2010 if you see Dota 2 as Icefrogs creation rather than Valves own
Riiiighty-o, buddy. Whatever you say.
Using Steams own numbers as the sole representation of the PC market is fucking retarded.
Steams numbers won't show: how popular any new EA games are, how popular any Blizzard games are (WoW playernumbers doesn't rival Dota or CSGO? Are you retarded?), how popular ANY MMO on the market is (Even though plenty of them are playable on Steam, almost all of them also have a non-Steam client which won't send its playernumbers to Steam)
League of Legends, the single most popular PC game, isn't even a part of Steam and you still call the platform ValveStation?

>>3642519
it was cancer before valve made it even more cancerous, to be honest. dota was responsible for killing wc3 custom games.

>>3642519
League was rising to popularity before Dota 2 even existed. HoN was also essentially Dota 1.5 and relatively popular before Dota 2. Valve had nothing to do with the rise of Mobas, original Dota Allstars developers did that all on their own.

>>3642456
xbox/ps2/gc/dc

gc just look better than ps2.
is not better in anything else.
and you know it, Yu

>>3639642
>Do we know for sure how much more powerful the PS2 was than the Dreamcast?

Yes.

>>3640569
>>3640530
Damn the Dreamcast looked good.

>>3639916
>You left out the fact that PS2 has no texture compression, which is the reason why so many PS2 games look really ugly.

Nah, the reason for that is that PS2 had only 4mb VRAM and most games used it like they would for PC hardware (upload all textures and then never touch it again).

The VRAM had bandwidth on par with the xbox360 however. So you could get around the small size by texturing from system memory - uploading textures to VRAM as the system was about to draw them. This was complex and difficult, so it took a few years for devs to figure it out.

There's a funny anecdote about how fast the PS2 gpu was. Normally you have to do backface culling to remove polygons you don't need to draw because they are invisible. The PS2 gpu was a chain of a lot of very simple processing units, so it could do simple things really really fucking fast. So much that Sony actually recommended that you drop backface culling: computing the invisible polygons was slower than drawing them.

>>3640618
>Now show me a game released 4 years after the Dreamcast stopped being made
You're a fucking idiot. Wow.

>>3640956
No it doesn't.

>>3642662
Not that guy but you could maybe post Under Defeat with it's insane amount of particle effects.

Looked better than Gradius V on the PS2 (the best looking shmup at the time).

>>3642670
Don't drag poor G.Rev into this.

>>3642665
Wrong image?

>>3640956
Silent hill 2 was an absolute marvel, silent hill 3 to me was one of the most impressive games on the system, I would even compare 3 to resident evil 4, both of those games are some of the best of the best of that generation.

>>3642704
No? http://www.eurogamer.net/videos/silent-hill-2-hd-ps2-vs-xbox-360-comparison-video

>>3642728
According to game sack the HD collection is awesome and not a huge pile of shit that you would have to be deaf and blind to think has visual parity to the originals.

>>3642728
Haha I remember when that hd collection came out. So many comparison videos that tried to trick everybody into believing the games looked better at a glance.

That lasted all the way until we played them. You're not actually saying the 360 version looks better than the original right?

>>3642456
>XBOX/GC/PS2/DC

This man speaks the truth and only the truth.

>>3640392
It was actually 50% of VU1, and "0%" of VU0. Plenty of games, probably most, actually did use VU0, but in macromode which wasn't measured by the performance analyzer. Micromode is more powerful, but considerably more difficult to use. Even companies like criterion and naughty dog mostly or entirely used macromode, which says something I think.

>>3642739
No, I'm saying the Dreamcast version looks better than the HD remake, actually.

>>3642787
So what does that have to do with the Xbox 360 version?

>>3642734
yeah konami didn't even give them the source code so they had to reverse engineer everything lol

>>3642814
Well, most other HD releases are in fact reverse engineered, the Silent hill HD collection took the incomplete beta code and tried to manually bring the game back up to parity with the original release. Even with all those issues it's got problems external to that, like the fog engine being completely butchered and the color depth being completely fucked. They also made the 4:3 cut scenes anamorphic widescreen which was just a flat out terrible decisions, not aided by the fact that they used a capture of the original video files instead of rerendering them.

>>3639837
Madden and fifa

>>3639642
Dreamcast > PS2 because it has real 480p with no disgusting interlacing.

>>3642524
>Let's blame the state of PC gaming on the creator of an open platform for game publishing instead if the consumers who dictate the market value.

Hopefully trump pulls through and dictates what games we do and do not get to play

>>3640530
I like the dreamcast, but that's not a fair comparison since DOA2 port was so rushed they literally had to trick the dev team to get it out in time.

Since this is a stealth PS2 thread, I was thinking about playing some PS1 games. So I have the PS2 and its component cables. For my non-480i PS1 games, how much lag do you think to have the PS2 set the output to RGsB into the OSSC set to line triple mode and then plugged into the framemeister to normalize its 720P output to a 1080P TV?

This is why DC isn't retro.

>>3639779
No. I won't entertain this thought.

>>3642802
It just happens to be in the screen cap I posted.

>>3640346
>Everyone who's butthurt about sixth gen stuff should just fuck off.
Butthurt millennial detected

>>3643535
Reminder that millennials were born between 1981 and 1997 and make up the vast majority of 4chan's traffic. moot is a millennial, Snacks is a millennial.

>>3640984

It's just higher resolution. There's no real enhancements other than that. You can feel free to post Dreamcast shots from emulators running at high resolution too.

>>3643639

Maria wears several golden American quarters. Why I have no clue. But the text is completely legible.

>>3643130
You should definitely buy an original fat PS3.

>>3643535
You do know that millenials are born in the 80s right

>>3639874
The big issue with the ps2 was the EmotionEngine and Vector Units.
Using all three simultaneously, you'd get performance comparable to the Dreamcast, but it's really difficult, so the only people who actually got to use it to its full potential were Naughty Dog (though they've been insane with using hardware to the maximum since early days, with GOOL) and other second party devs.
Feature-wise, the ps2 kicked DC's ass, with stuff like completely free alpha blending (thanks to its EDRAM), but it lacked in some areas like using Sony's dogshit graphics libraries, which instead of using multi pass rendering like on the GCN, it was single pass, thus seriously constraining pixel fill rate.

You can really notice where devs cared enough to use the ps2's odd but efficient architecture, and where they just didn't care enough to learn.

>>3641318
Does that work with 480i retro stuff like MM Anniversary Collection to downconvert them to 240p?

>>3643646
NO. Fat PS3s are ticking time bombs.

>>3644243
why?

>>3643646
Any PS3 can play PS1 games.

>>3641991
No one can compete with the emotion engine.

>>3644238
I would also like to know this, so bump.

>>3640158

Launch games i got.

Armored Core 2
Doa 2
Midnight Club
Smugglers Run
Tekken Tag
Timesplitters
Unreal Tournament

>>3644227
>Using all three simultaneously, you'd get performance comparable to the Dreamcast

Emotion Engine and Vectors Units are not separate. The console's vector units are inside of Emotion Engine - two of many components that consistent Emotion Engine. It's not just a generic CPU.

And fully utilized you wouldn't get "performance comparable to the Dreamcast", you'd blow it out of the water. SH-4's geometry engine simply cannot compete.

>the only people who actually got to use it to its full potential were Naughty Dog (though they've been insane with using hardware to the maximum since early days, with GOOL

Although that Naughty Dog blog post about the making of Crash Bandicoot was very interesting, I wouldn't take it as holy.

There's a little bit too much unwarranted self-congratulation in it. For example, the fact that they developed a script language parser for their game (GOOL), although they were hardly the first to do so. The Ultima series had one for years and years before and so did LucasArts games.

>Feature-wise, the ps2 kicked DC's ass

Quite the opposite, the PS2 was very lacking in features, although it was just bloody fast which meant that you could brute-force 'features' out of the hardware simply through speed.

>it lacked in some areas like using Sony's dogshit graphics libraries, which instead of using multi pass rendering like on the GCN, it was single pass

Once again, I think you have it backwards. The GCN was not designed for multi-pass rendering. In fact, its GPU designers went to great lengths to prevent use of multi-pass rendering with a texture-loopback feature.

None of the Gamecube graphic libraries would have encouraged multi-pass rendering, but they definitely would have on PS2. The entire console is built around multi-pass rendering. That's the whole idea - there's no other reason it would have 16 pixel pipelines compared to the 4 on Xbox and Gamecube.

Quality games are common knowledge for the PS2. What are some good games for the Dreamcast?

>Politely complain about a DV vs PS2 thread getting derrailed into a veiled PS2 thread with no DC at all
>Post gets deleted
Remember there's a janitor here actively encouraging not following the rules. Get evidences and report him in /qa/

>>3644247
The thermal paste they used was garbage so it can over heat. Granted this in my experience only happens with punishing PS3 titles. To fix it requires taking the whole thing apart to its most base layer, putting fresh paste, using an industrial blowdryer and pray it both heats and cools without warming.

CD laser also fries out, but not an issue if you are playing the hard drive. That fix I was able to do myself easy enough.

>>3644404
>*without warping

herp a derp

>>3640827
Halo 2 looks way, way better than Halo 1. And yes, it sacrifices frame rate in a lot of cutscenes and campaign (multiplayer is silky-smooth). It also had a HUGE issue with pop-ins during cutscenes. It's really bad.

I didn't play Project Gotham 2, but I can confirm the first was beautiful (for a launch title) and ran at a solid framerate.

>>3644428
>but I can confirm the first was beautiful (for a launch title)

Nah it looked pretty good, but I remember thinking (and the reviews also saying it) that the game looked as if it was sorely missing a needed additional lighting pass.

>>3643519
You're a fucking retard.

>>3644428
Michael Abrash was part of Xbox Advanced Technology Group back then. He worked on figuring out the programming tricks and quirks of Xbox and telling developers how to take full advantage of the platform.

Failure of a console, last in a string of failed consoles from the worst console maker ever. No surprise it ended up being shit tier.

>>3639761
Have you seen Virtua Fighter 4 Evo? Yu Suzuki was a fucking sadist when it came to programming weird hardware. Shenmue was very texture heavy and it probably would have been difficult to shoehorn it onto the PS2. Don't get mad. Just fucking think about it.

>>3644664
>Shenmue was very texture heavy and it probably would have been difficult to shoehorn it onto the PS2. Don't get mad. Just fucking think about it.

Yeah well, Dreamcast may have 2 times the VRAM but PS2's VRAM is literally 60 times faster.

>>3644668
Dude, it's been decades, why does it even fucking matter to you, this is some absurd levels of fanboyism.

>>3640374
>PS2 launch titles looked worse because Sony initially had dev kits with CD media only
That's not the reason. The PS2 has no hardware anti-aliasing. The developers eventually learned they could blur edges and get a similar effect with a minimal hit to the frame rates.

>>3644679
Because this is a Dreamcast vs PS2 hardware comparison thread as per OP and I was doing exactly that

>>3644304
Crazy Taxi, Jet Set Radio, Sonic Adventures, Soul Calibur, Ikaruga, Rez, ChuChuRocket, Grandia II, Phantasy Star Online, Skies of Arcadia, Metropolis Street Racer, Power Stones, Dead or Alive 2, Samba De Amigo, the NeoGeo and Capcom 2d/3d fighters, the other Sega arcade ports and shumps. It was mainly an arcade system so if you weren't into arcade games, you probably didn't own one.

>>3644668
>but PS2's VRAM is literally 60 times faster
You can believe this all you want. In practice, it suffered in ways the GameCube and Dreamcast did not. If you consider the PC Engine, SNES, and Megadrive, PS2 was the Megadrive of that generation. Games like Burnout and God of War wouldn't have been possible, but yet Namco struggled to make Soul Calibur 3 look near as good as Soul Calibur 2 on the GameCube.

>>3644716
>You can believe this all you want.

It's an objective fact. Dreamcast's VRAM is 0.8 GB/s, PS2's VRAM is 48 GB/s.

> In practice, it suffered in ways the GameCube and Dreamcast did not.

Only on poorly developed games.

>yet Namco struggled to make Soul Calibur 3 look near as good as Soul Calibur 2 on the GameCube.

But SC3 looks better.

>>3643646
I have one, but it gets really hot. I am afraid to use it. Also as you can see damn piano black smooth plastic sucks up all the dust in a 10 mile radius.

>>3644471
.... For agreeing with you that it isn't better than the original...?

>>3645512
open it and replace the thermal pasta

>>3646241
and paint it white

>>3646242

ew no

>>3639847

Me and my buddy got the ps2 at launch. I got SSX and Timesplitters he got The Bouncer and Fantavision

>>3645512
It's 60 bucks to get one totally refurbished and fixed up. If it dies just send it in and it's good for another 10 years.

>>3644267
The Emotion Engine really did what it was meant to do. Every time I looked at a PS2 game, I felt like laughing or crying.

>>3644302
>Quite the opposite, the PS2 was very lacking in features, although it was just bloody fast which meant that you could brute-force 'features' out of the hardware simply through speed.

It also had a programmable pixel pipeline (sort of), while the Dreamcast did not. That alone makes it an entire generation ahead.

>>3644428
Halo 2 was extremely rushed because it was the last "killer app" for the Xbox. The devs knew that the 360 would be coming next year, they had to reach the 2004 holiday season for release. Otherwise it would get canned.

They also had ridiculously huge anticipation built up by the 2003 E3 trailer, even though it was completely scripted and they had to rewrite the entire engine from scratch after that.

>>3644664
>Shenmue was very texture heavy and it probably would have been difficult to shoehorn it onto the PS2.

PS2 had 32 + 4mb memory, DC has 16 + 8mb. As long as they texture from system memory and have a software texture compressor (there is enough horsepower there to do it), they could perfectly port Shenmue 2 to the PS2.

It would require a huge crunch and programming ingenuity, but that's exactly what AM2 is known for.

>>3646350
It didn't have a programmable pixel pipeline, but if you do enough blending it's practically equivalent to a color combiner which is a primitive form of fixed-pipeline pixel shading.

I dug up some old PS2 games and memory cards, like an entire box of them. I vaguely recall boxing them because I lost my PS2 somehow or other.

I wanna buy a new PS2, but obviously a new one is gonna be insanely expensive in this day and age. I'm trying to look for the best-quality one I can find, but even a used one can get pretty expensive on Amazon. I'm hoping to get a FAT one because a Slim I used to have scratched the fuck out of some of my disks.

>>3646367
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q69Msy8ttM

>>3646867
No, the ps2 is still dirt cheap, motherfucker sold like 100 millions units so it isn't exactly rare. I wouldn't pay more than $60 for one honestly, just keep your eyes out.

>>3642504
>but I can understand if you don't follow what I wrote above because it is a little
>complicated.

this guy is on a pure autism role here

>>3644772
>But SC3 looks better

No, not really.

>>3646958
>knowledge = autism
go away with your anti-intellectualism

>>3646960
Please, try playing Sc2 AFTER Sc3.

>>3646989
slighty,but the backgrounds are defy better in 3

I can't believe they couldn't be able to port Shenmue on a console that runs God of War 2

>>3642850
Pathetic as it is, this.

>>3646224
In your original post, you disagreed with another anon by saying that SH2 doesn't look better than anything on Dreamcast. You posted a comparison picture of the Xbox 360 and PS2 versions of SH2 in the same post. This is high effort trolling or you genuinely don't know how image boards work. Regardless, you're a fucking retard.

>>3647460
Oh yeah, and there's no Dreamcast version.

>>3639776
Lots of games had progressive scan mode.

>>3644302
>There's a little bit too much unwarranted self-congratulation in it. For example, the fact that they developed a script language parser for their game (GOOL), although they were hardly the first to do so.

Well, for jak they wrote their own language and compiler for the ps2. Wasn't it also one of the first open world games with no load screens?

>>3641995
Correct.

The PS2 had a JIT "Just in Time" VRAM system, where textures were meant to stream directly off cd only when needed, as opposed to other systems that held them in memory.

Basically Xbox would load every texture needed into main memory regardless if you went to that section of the map and PS2 would only load them if you were looking at it.

Some devs used this system to great effect to make it appear seamlessly loading without pausing. That's because it was always constantly loading anyway.

Imagine Netflix but for textures. Off a cd rather than the internet.

>>3647520
>The PS2 had a JIT "Just in Time" VRAM system, where textures were meant to stream directly off cd only when needed, as opposed to other systems that held them in memory.

Loading off the CD for real time rendering would be way too slow. What you actually mean is the textures are copied to VRAM from RDRAM as needed.

It's not too dissimilar to what developers already had to do with the N64's texture cache since that console couldn't texture straight out of RAM. Of course it's a pain in the ass which is why developers didn't like it on N64 or PS2.

>>3639825
>Bravia TV set that has an integrated PS2
KDL-22PX300. Someone high-up at Sony made this thing as a love letter to the PS2, which was four years out of date when this monitor came out in Dec 2010. Very neat lil gadget

>>3648060
You only paid $86?

Wow

>>3639662
Shenmue 2 has very high texture detail, which would make it very difficult to port to the PS2 (4mb VRAM compared to the DC's 8mb, and the DC also had texture compression).

A PS2 port would have less loading screens but would have blurry textures.

>>3640849
Soul Reaver was seamless.

Metroid Prime on the GC as well.

>>3648686
We've been over this already. PS2 has 16mb more system ram, big enough pipe to texture from system ram, and enough horsepower to also do decompression in software while loading those textures to vram.

It could handle Shenmue 2 as good as the Dreamcast could.

Maybe even better, since Shenmue 2 ran like ass on the Dreamcast. It had characters popping up right next to you, and slowed down pretty often.

>>3647460
Either way it doesn't look better than anything on the Dreamcast so your attempt at trolling is pretty weak, senpai

>>3647496
>179 titles out of 1,850+
>lots

>>3650912
Good to know you are trolling then. 10/10

>>3639642

>>3652000
Itagaki pls

>>3652071
publisher tricked them into releasing the game lol

>>3644365

There is a very shotty goddamn janitor here

>>3644365
You actually violated a global rule about complaining about moderators.

You are meant to REPORT, HIDE, IG-FUCKING-NORE.

>>3654294
Except when trannyjanny fucks up his job, that OCD faggot needs to be fired already.

>>3654321
Nope. Complaining about moderation is not allowed on the boards. So go back to your #safespace

>>3652000
>Background looks better on DC
>Character models look better on PS2

I will pick PS2 then.

>>3654346
>I will pick eye cancer then.

>>3654346
>>3654378
DOA2 Hardcore looks better than that bait picture of the Japanese launch version anyway.

It made the Dreamcast version obsolete.

Who the fuck plays DOA2 anyways.

It's still a fucking joke the Dreamcast had crisp, sweet, sexual 480p and the PS2 came out with 480i bullshit even the PS3 can't fix.

>PS2
>good
I want /v/ to leave and take their shitty refuge thread with them.

While I don't doubt the PS2 had a better CPU than the GCN, I would like to know why the AI in RE4 was much better on the GCN than on the PS2. That kind of job should be exactly the type of thing the PS2 should beat the GCN at.

>>3640763

I see no reason to take this as fact. Just simplify the physics, hell the game had simpler physics than 2 anyway and just used explosions and flame effects to cover it up. Burnout 3 was the first Burnout published by EA, and EA was dropping support for the GCN in general at the time. Burnout 3 was much bigger budget than 1 and 2, also, low sales would not be tolerated.

>>3646989

Not only does SCII on GCN look pretty good compared to SCIII, but SCII was originally designed for PS2 hardware (the arcade machine the game was built for is just a PS2) and still looks better on GCN.

>>3655263
>Burnout 3 was much bigger budget than 1 and 2, also, low sales would not be tolerated.

I think I remember the devs blaming the GCN's lackluster (IIRC) online multiplayer as the reason, or something like that

>>3654619
This thread is nothing like a /v/ thread.

>>3655263
>I would like to know why the AI in RE4 was much better on the GCN than on the PS2
I haven't noticed any difference myself, but if that's true it would be because the AI code is optimized for single-data integer operations that are favorable for the Gamecube's CPU. Remember, the integer path on Emotion Engine is handled by the MIPS R5900 which is a slower and older part than the PowerPC on GameCube, even though Emotion Engine has a whole bag of other tricks up its sleeve.

>I see no reason to take this as fact
You mean a reason other than a lead engineer who worked on the game came out with those details?

>Just simplify the physics
That would make the gameplay different across different versions which would be a design nightmare.

>hell the game had simpler physics than 2 anyway
It did not. Burnout 3 took it to the next level. What it also make more sophisticated was the dynamic vehicle deformities.

>EA was dropping support for the GCN in general at the time
That's not true. Burnout 3 was released in 2004. Almost every console EA game released even in 2005 received a GameCube port. Just check this list and filter by year.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Electronic_Arts_games

Also Criterion cared enough apparently to go to the extreme extent of trying assembly programming on the GameCube's CPU, so they clearly wanted a port to be made but it was just too slow to handle SIMD operations (fair enough, it wasn't really designed for them).

>>3655279
>I think I remember the devs blaming the GCN's lackluster (IIRC) online multiplayer as the reason
That never happened. It was just old speculation/an excuse by Nintendo fans to explain Burnout 3's inexplicable absence on GameCube.

>>3639642
I don't remember PS2 having better ports of arcade games compared to Dreamcast, for those games that are shared between the two.

>>3640776
>Jak and Daxter is the first seamless platformer with no loading between levels
Soul Reaver, AND it also let you warp and twist the environment in real time as well.

>>3642893
>Released on PS2 without the developer's consent
Wait is that even legal

>>3643130
Just use an S-Video modded PSOne

>>3640569
PS2 has better lighting, DC has better textures, no clear winner.

>>3641521
>>3641535
And don't forget that lots of SNES games use SlowROM so the CPU has to be slowed down to wait for it.

>>3639837
But PS2 got grandia II.

>>3640158
Meanwhile top games on the dreamcast include "bass fishing"

I think you /vr/ fags are just delusional.

>>3640218
I atill think Resident Evil is on of the most finely polished games of all time.

>>3642850
and DVD

>>3655934
I'd like Julia Voth (Jill) to polish something for me all the time, ifunowatimean

>>3639642
Dreamcast had really nice anti-aliasing and texture filtering which made games looks really clear and crisp. And most games ran at 640x480 so they look ace on HDTVs.

PS2 on the other hand could push waaaaaaaay more polygons, more lighting, particles etc but most games were interlaced and ran at lower than 480i resolution,

>>3655954
>Dreamcast had really nice anti-aliasing

Hardly any Dreamcast games actually used AA though, maybe like 1% of the library. It just looked less jaggy than PS2 since the games ran at a higher resolution and every game had flicker filtering.

>>3640941
Would i translate to today's current gen? Like if REmake 2 really does (LOL) decide to use high quality pre rendered gifs, could the Characters be CGI tier?

Went here to ask why you still can't talk about the PS2 in /vr/, i think i already got the answer.

>>3656073
It's because of autists. Even if it was allowed tomorrow they would sperg as hard as they could.

Hey, remember that guy who flooded a PS2 thread with gore?

>>3655530
>That would make the gameplay different across different versions which would be a design nightmare.

No it wouldn't, have you ever played Burnout? The physics do nothing gameplay related, it's just cars crashing while the player watches, plus damage on the cars. Both can be easily simplified without changing gameplay.

Burnout 3 had much simpler crashes, Burnout 2 had cars flying in the air and shit, with way more cars involved in the crash. Burnout 3 just had deformed cars and explosions that filled the screen.

Your list says that half of EA's multiplats in 2004 weren't on GCN, fyi.

>>3655563

Of course it is, the publisher and developer are the same company. The worst a developer can do if they are different companies is sue for lost profit or whatnot.

>>3656669
>The physics do nothing gameplay related,
Umm what? Physics touches a hell of a lot of subtleties. Momentum, handling, and particularly collision detection. Is the car going to flip in the air or not? Etc. How is the car going to dynamically deform if it crashes into things.

>Burnout 3 had much simpler crashes, Burnout 2 had cars flying in the air and shit, with way more cars involved in the crash. Burnout 3 just had deformed cars and explosions that filled the screen.
This is so untrue it isn't funny. It just reads like mindless Burnout 3 hate. I've got Burnout 2 for Xbox and while it's a great game, it's definitely "lower scale" than Burnout 3 which "ups the ante". Hell, they had to upgrade the physics and shit just to make the new modes work better.

>Your list says that half of EA's multiplats in 2004 weren't on GCN, fyi.
I counted exactly 3 games including Burnout 3. Is this a case of seeing what you wanted to see?

>>3655897
The PS1 / PS2 releases of Grandia 1 and 2 were garbage compared to the original versions, unfortunately.

>>3657379
Really? It's too bad the saturn version never got translated i suppose. What was the big difference between them?

>>3656015
Almost every Dreamcast game used anti-aliasing. Did you just pull this out of your ass?

>>3657729
>Almost every Dreamcast game used anti-aliasing. Did you just pull this out of your ass?

PowerVR2 didn't support any anti-aliasing method other than supersampling, so no, they didn't. The only person pulling shit out of their arse is you.

>>3644772
>But SC3 looks better
They had one job to do instead of 3.

>>3644404
>tfw i tried this 5 years ago and it didn't work

Fucking sucks cause I miss being able to use that fucker for ps1 and ps2 disks. I still have it, but its a brick at this point.

>>3640956
i love silent hill 2, but this is a retarded statement

>>3656065
yes they could. I don't think they will go that route though.

>>3654619

>>3640165
this. ps2 was completely irrelevant until gta 3.

>>3657795
fitting image

>>3657376
>Physics touches a hell of a lot of subtleties. Momentum, handling, and particularly collision detection.
And you think the GCN can't handle that? Every game with objects that collide has such features, this has been around a lot longer than sixth gen. Again, easily simplified.

> It just reads like mindless Burnout 3 hate. I've got Burnout 2 for Xbox and while it's a great game, it's definitely "lower scale" than Burnout 3 which "ups the ante".

Not a single thing in Burnout 3 compares to the crash minigame in Burnout 2. Nothing. Again, all explosions, with a handful of cars.

>I counted exactly 3 games including Burnout 3

Then go count again.

>>3659510
>And you think the GCN can't handle that?
It's not what I think, it's what the lead programmer thinks after he tried getting it working on three console platformers. The advanced physics simulation with dynamic vehicle damage working with fast car speeds at 60 fps simply did not work well enough on Gamecube's CPU.

Allegedly it was even extremely difficult getting it running on the Pentium 3's SSE SIMD capabilities on Xbox. However, the GameCube's PowerPC does not support true vertex SIMD - only paired singles. So vertex SIMD operations would require, at minimum, twice as many instruction cycles compared to Pentium 3. As mentioned above, GameCube's PowerPC part was designed to be great at single data with every other function merely as a fallback.

>Not a single thing in Burnout 3 compares to the crash minigame in Burnout 2. Nothing

Uh huh, right.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V8hpMAWjXc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrEMCBi6gRw

You can see the shortcuts taken in the physics in Burnout 2 and the improvements in 3. Particularly how explosions handle throwing so many vehicles properly rather than insane spins in 2.

>Then go count again.
Alright, if we count games that were both on PS2 and Xbox but not on GameCube in 2004 I get this:

Burnout 3
Fight Night 2004
NHL 2005
Total Club Manager 2005
UEFA Euro 2004

That's 5 games out of 17. And 4 of those games were niche sports games

>>3655263
>That kind of job should be exactly the type of thing the PS2 should beat the GCN at.

If you think that then you don't understand the differences between the two CPUs.

The gamecube has a more advanced CPU than the mips R5900 itself. Particularly in the areas of branch prediction, cache, and memory latency. Complex, brancy, or less optimized code will generally run much faster on the gamecube. The PS2 vector units give it a big advantage in parallel number crunching though. Things like physics, transforming geometry, maybe decoding textures, etc.

>>3659805
Yeah on the single data integer / FP paths the PowerPC in GameCube will blow that old MIPS in the Emotion Engine away.

But I believe the MIPS FP unit actually supports true vertex SIMD unlike the GameCube's PowerPC, so it may possibly have an advantage in that particular area, even excluding the two vector units. Of course, at pure SIMD the two vector units will blow the MIPS and PowerPC out of the fucking water.

>>3659757
Burnout 2 is far better

>>3659850
It might, I've never looked at the processor in detail.

>>3659916
*tips fedora*

>>3640470
>Call of Duty 3, Publisher Unknown, Region Japan, Date 31st December 1899

am I missing something

>>3660597
just move along, time cops are on the case as we speak

>>3641579
The psvita gets more third party support because its games can be easily upscaled for a dual ps4 release. The 3ds tech is ancient at this point, it was underpowered when it launched and the gap has only widened, it's pretty obvious why third parties don't want to touch it.

>>3662178
the gap has narrowed significantly with the new 3ds. not like anyone targets it specifically though

>>3662178
Nintendo hardware has been behind for years.

>>3654536
it also had official vga support to

the PS2 was considerably more powerful, even earlier games like MGS2 and GT3 are pretty close to DC's maximum potential, maybe even beyond that, particularly MGS2's
geometry. things like GT4, MGS3 and SotC are surely well beyond the DC. hell, the PS2 barely runs SotC itself

the DC was an amazing piece of hardware for late 1998, a very straightforward design too, but it simply can't compete with the younger and much faster PS2 outside image quality. things like multitexturing and particle-effects became a must as early as 2001~2002, the DC hardware isn't very good at doing both

>>3664636
This.

Dreamcast has really great fill rate for the time even when producing a decent image quality due to its tile rendering method, but its T&L processing can't even be said to be a full generational leap over the N64. PS2 is sooooo much faster when it comes to processing lights and particles.

>>3642787
I don't know why my response was deleted. There is no Dreamcast version. Kill yourself.

>>3648060
I heard this thing was Europe only, I know someday I've gotta get one because it's going to become a huge collectors item.

>>3639642
The DC could have probably achieved more impressive results with a better storage media. GD ROM was a mistake.

>>3667582
Had literally nothing to do with storage medium

Biggest mistake people make when analyzing old hardware is trying to apply the N64 cartridge situation by analogy to everything

>>3657778
Guy on Ebay fixes for 60 bucks.

>>3665779
Good thinking. building up my PS2 collection now while its still cheap, got about 200 games so far out of a library of 3,800. Average price in local wild is $2-$5.

>>3667582
Outside stuff like GTA3 (which required the game world to be loaded from the same disc), there's nothing that couldn't had been fixed without additional discs, which is what most DC games (like Code: Veronica) did.

>>3640346
Back when the Dreamcast wasn't allowed to be talked about on /vr/, I used to complain about it for those exact reasons, but ONLY the Dreamcast.

/v/ is fine to talk about the Gamecube, Xbox and PS2. You could probably go on there now, have a picture of the Gamecube say "What went wrong" and get a 500 post thread discussion the Gamecube, Xbox and PS2 with some mentions of the Dreamcast here and there.

/vr/ doesn't need the rest of the 6th gen, /v/ is still perfectly fine for that.

Would the dreamcast have the technical capabilities of early PS2 games like GTA3?

>>3669870
Yeah, but it never got to that development point.

>>3669870
GTA3 maybe. Silent Hill 2, probably not. Dreamcast can't even approach PS2 alpha blending performance required for that game's fogging effect.

>>3667582
1GB GDROM was perfect for the Dreamcast. It was always meant to be an arcade machine. Looking at file sizes for some of my most favorite PS2 arcade games, I have no doubt they would be able to squeeze them onto a GDROM disk. Hell many of the first PS2 games were CDROM.

>>3670348

That wasn't entirely by choice, as pointed out earlier in the thread.

>>3669880
>>3670308
I think someone once tried to port GTA3 to the dreamcast.

>>3670308
>Dreamcast can't even approach PS2 alpha blending performance required for that game's fogging effect.

It doesn't really need to since the PVR2 is more efficient at blending (it can do order independent transparency ), so it can do more with less.

Also, it is worth noting that nearly all DC games used the default Sega graphics libraries. Sega never released low-end documentations for developers to build their own graphics features.

Because of that, the hardware was never pushed to its limit. It was easy to code for only because those said libraries were extremely useful for setting up 3d sceneries. And the machine died after only a few years too, so no one really pushed it hard.

So that thing about the DC reaching its limit early is bullshit. Yeah, it's nowhere near the ballpark of the GC or Xbox, but it could've done more than what we've seen.

>>3671851
>It doesn't really need to since the PVR2 is more efficient at blending
Well yeah, but the PS2 is literally a thousand miles ahead with blending performance due to the fast eDRAM. It's estimated that tile based deferring rendering is 3 to 5 times more efficient with fill rate than traditional rendering. The thing is that on paper the PS2 is like 60 times faster.

>nearly all DC games used the default Sega graphics libraries. Sega never released low-end documentations for developers to build their own graphics features.
The Dreamcast is not as highly programmable in the low-level as, say, the N64 or the PS2. It's like GameCube which is a fairly fixed piece of hardware, so there definitely is a harder limit to improvement.

>>3671543
How did that go