/vr/ - Retro Games

I liked both

Obviously Mario USA.

Shitloads of enemies got from that into the series proper.

adventure of link introduced an emphasis on combat that was later revisited with OoT and the 3D games.

SMB2 did more for the Mario franchise than AoL did for the LoZ franchise.

With that said, I personally enjoyed AoL more than SMB 2

Can I throw in Metroid 2? Because that had some pretty interesting stuff.

I think AoL did more for the Zelda series.

While Mario 2 added a few new enemies, Zelda 2 added a magic meter, a third triforce piece, and established the concept of multiple Princess Zeldas.

That being said, I liked Mario 2 more, though they're rather difficult to compare, since they're utterly different genres.

>>358486
Mario added... shy guys? Birdo... Flying Peach being the best thing ever... and I dunno
Adventure of Link added towns, magic, npcs worth a damn, and story

I have to give it to AoL

I love shy guys, so I'm going to have to go with SBM2

Isn't SMB2 the first SMB where Luigi actually has a different design than Mario?

>>358760
Appearance wise or how he jumps? In the Japanese version of super mario bros 2 (the real one), luigi jumped higher.

From wiki

"For the first time, Luigi could now jump higher and further than Mario, but he had less traction."

>>358664
The third triforce piece was always there it just never appeared in the first game

>>358760
This is a point. SMB2 was really the game that developed many of the Mario Characters for the series. The asymmetric abilities that each character had made for a varied play experience in game, and asymmetric abilities were something that the series developed further as it grew.

>>358510
[Spoiler]Mah nigger[/spoiler]

I'd argue that Castlevania 2 is the ugly duckling game that did more for it's series than SMB2 or AoL

I can name a number of surviving elements and features from SMB2, and then very few from Zelda II.

What semblance does Zelda II have to the rest of the series? Link to the past was modelled after the first Zelda in every other regard, I would not stretch to say that the inclusion of a town in LttP was because they were present in Zelda II either, you know?

>>358869

http://zeldawiki.org/Zelda_II:_The_Adventure_of_Link

read the 'legacy' part.

>>358864
I don't really buy the argument that Simon's Quest was the prototype for later Castlevanias. SotN was pretty obviously based on Super Metroid.

>>358815
In the timeline, yes, but I'm pretty sure it was an early retcon. I doubt they had a third piece planned when they actually made the game, considering that it was the first game and they had no expectations of it being popular enough for a sequel.

I tried playing AoL, and god, its just so dull. I loved Zelda 1 but I'm not a huge fan of the Zeldas after it. Zelda 2 has a lot of the same qualities - difficult, just puts you in a world - but I don't find it nearly as compelling. I'm not a fan of RPG-type skill building and it often just seems too difficult and not fun.

>>358975
If it only had two pieces, why was it the TRIforce?

>>359018
Because they are triangles.

>>358975
Wait, you think that the triangle made of triangles was not meant to have 3 triangles?

>>358824
Which is funny to think about, being that they are just holdovers for an entirely different game.

>super mario 2 introduces characters and elements pervasive in mario games to this day

>zelda 2 is lucky it gets a nod once in a while

Obvious

uhhh, Zelda 2 is perhaps the best of the entire series. It has become a Swan

>>359119
allow me to laugh heartily at your comment, because surely you jest.

>>359126
a direct sequel
unique game play
best music
its just different and better
ugly my arsh

>>359126
It's just a kid trying to force an opinion into being a fact by repeating it in every thread
pay it no mind
Also, I'm a goat

One thing I've noticed on playing Zelda 2 again is the name of the towns.
1. Rauru
2. Ruto
3. Saria
4. Mido
5. Nabooru
6. Darunia
7. Kasuto
Most of them are named after the sages, except Mido who is that kokiri kid, but Kasuto doesn't seem to be a name that is used later in the series.

>>359157
Only in game chronology
It the real world, the sages are named after the towns

>>359168
I know it was a whole 11 years before the names were used again. I just thought it was funny they never used Kasuto, it would be a great name for someone.

If it wasn't for Doki Doki Panic, the Mario series would never have Bob-ombs.

SMB2 did more for the series, but I find Zelda 2 to be the better game.


Fun fact, Doki Doki Panic was actually originally planned to be a mario game in Japan which was reskinned to be Doki Doki Panic which was then again reskinned to be Mario 2 USA.

>>359213
Did Mario swipe the enemies from Doki Doki Panic, or reskin them?

>>358994
Meh, I loved LoZ as a kid. Still love it to this day. I don't see how it's dull. The game is very tense, and features the same exploration and dungeon exploring mechanics of the original.

>>359270
Took them straight from the game. Even wart and stuff.

At least zeda 2 was designed as a zelda game, and not just a fucking reskin.

I have the great memories of beating SMB2 on a daily basis as a kid while my mom watched waiting for me to finish to see a show.
I always beat it on time

>>359282
see >>359256

As for the two games, I think AoL has more of a legacy overall in regards to how later Zelda games were developed, but both games have definitely left their mark.

Also, both games are awesome. People just want to hate because they were so different from the first ones.

>>358486

Why did people hate Super Mario 2? I loved it as a kid because it was different than the original Mario. And because I could use Toad, who I still use to this day. Toad > Luigi > Peach > Mario.

>>359018
Because they're TRIangles.

>>359038
The Triforce symbol doesn't actually show up until Alttp.

>>358578
NO

>>359369
>The Triforce symbol doesn't actually show up until Alttp.
I could've sworn Link held them up at the end of the first game, but it was only one piece

My bad

SMB2: A shitload of now classic Mario enemies and tidbits like Peach flying, Luigi being "floaty", Toad sucking ass. Oh there's Birdo too.

AoL: ...Nothing worth mentioning?

Wow youre really that asshole who tries to defend castlevania 2. Please get out

Aol may of not been a reskin but it was a 180 from the original so much that it didn't feel like a Zelda game. Smb2 as much as it was meh each chactet felt distinctly different which was impressive. It was also an acid trip

>>358578
I really enjoyed Metroid II. Actually of all the 2D Metroids I've played I like it the most. But I did grow up with it.

>>359185

I think Kasuto is a character in like one of the DS games.

>>358510
>>358510
>>358510
I did as well. Both were wild creative experiments that shine well on their own merit.

>>359673
cont.

wns and this many different environments.
The Sages in Ocarina of Time are named after the towns in this game (in-game chronology, however, indicates the opposite: The towns were named after the Sages).
The need to do tasks outside the main mission 'Quest' like having to save a trophy or finding medicine for a sick child.
This is the first game where Link shapeshifts (into a fairy) as well the first game where the process is voluntary and beneficial.
Contrary to popular belief, this isn't the only Zelda game to feature side-scrolling gameplay. It is used briefly in the first game when taking secret passages. It is also used in the Game Boy games Link's Awakening and Oracle of Ages and Seasons and in Four Swords Adventures when taking underground paths (as well as certain boss fights).
Bosses have their own battle theme. They lacked it entirely in the first game.
This is the first game where villages and towns appear.
This is the first appearance of an "adult" (i.e. late teens or older) Link in the series. Link is officially sixteen in this game.
All of the dungeons in this game are known by the word for "temple" in Japanese, and this naming convention is reused in English as well as Japanese and most other languages in some other entries in the series, e.g. Ocarina of Time. The English localization of this game changed it to "palace" due to Nintendo of America's then-current policy concerning religious references in games.
Certain recurring types of item, such as the hammer and boots.
The suggestion of romantic interest between Link and Zelda, as implied by the ending.

>>359430
>>359430
>AoL: ...Nothing worth mentioning?


I'm tired of people saying this. Anyone who says this clearly hasn't played the game and is jumping on the bandwagon
This Zelda started
The ability of Ganon to be revived/return after defeat/death.
The Triforce of Courage was introduced.
The first appearance of Dark Link was in this game.
A magic system, even though it was never used so excessively after this game.
The introduction of several new enemies and one boss (aside from Dark Link) that return in later games, such as the Iron Knuckle and Volvagia (called Barba in the original English release).
The ability to learn new moves (though still limited to only two). More generally, the existence of distinct sword techniques at all, as opposed to the single forward strike of The Legend of Zelda.
The world of Hyrule became significantly larger. The overworld of no other Zelda title can be considered this large, with this many to

>>358718
Is that you Jon?

>>359676
In other words, without this game there would only be 2 triforce pieces, no magic, no outside missions from the main quest, no dark link, no iron knuckles or volvagia, no sword techniques, no towns/villages, no hammer or boots

where would later zelda games be without any of this??

Well, hey, since we're talking about ugly ducklings...

I know it has its little flaws (like how it tried to link the series with the Bram Stoker novel, something Portrait of Ruin pretty much solidified), but I love this game, man.

>trekkin' across yurop to stop dracula from being resurrected
>swinging from yo whip and pole vaultin'
>all those cool ass special effects
>that glorious feel when you get your whip/lance max upgraded and you become a god

Good-ass game, man.

>>359756
Castlevania II was the ugly one
>>358864

>>359785
Castlevania II wasn't ugly, it was hideous.

>>358578
is it an ugly duckling you fucking derp?

>>358486

Both were bold jumps into different territory when Nintendo had every incentive to stick to the formula that worked. Unfortunately, there's too many people with their hands in the cookie jar, and budgets are higher than ever, so this kind of experimentation will never be allowed ever again.

At least Mario 2 was a good game on its own merit. It sucked for a Mario but Doki Doki Panic's concept was fairly unique and fun.

Zelda 2 on the other hand was absolute shit and would have been completely forgotten and buried if not for the Zelda name attached to it.

we got these guys thanks to mario 2

>>360929
>Zelda 2 on the other hand was absolute shit

look at this nigger

>>359710

Are you looking for a fight here man, because you just found one.

>>360929
> absolute shit
> implying the battles against the iron knuckles weren't enjoyable for its arcade fighter feeling

it was the demons souls of its time
if you didn't abuse the hit detection bug

>>358486

They are both my favorites in their respective series, I enjoyed the Adventure of Link more

Super Mario Bros 2 did more for it's series

It gave us Oath in Felghana, and the soundtrack was one of the best in the series (or the best depending on your opinion)

The other black sheep, Ys V (and the only one without a remake), was the first to use overhead perspective without the bump system.

>>359756
Everyone reveres Bloodlines, not even close to an ugly duckling.

I like it better than Castlevania 4

>>358568
Thank you, totally what I thought all these years. Though I'd like another Zelda 2 approach. With tech today, they can make something amazing and not so brutally punishing. I'm cool with difficulty, but the lives system was balls with the enemies, Knockback and Bottomless pits.

I'm still the only one who thought Majora's Mask should've been called The Adventure of Link : Majora's Mask

But I guess that would've decreased sales further.

>>361481
>Demons souls
>Racking up EXP
>Can GameOver at any moment
>Enemies out to get you
>Throwing everything at you
>Game is still hard as fuck even when you're maxed out.

Wavelength, Brother. How does it work...?!

I really enjoyed SMB2. Beat it as a kid and never knew until years later the real story behind the game.

Zelda 2, on the other hand, I've never been able to get into. I've still to this day never gotten past the first dungeon. It's the only Zelda game I've played and never beaten.

>>361009
Though Ys III was different, I've never gotten the sense that it was the black sheep by Ys fans in the way Castlevania 2 and Zelda II are.
In fact I think it was mostly embraced as a welcome diversion, the fact that Oath changed and improved upon it doesn't negate the fact that it is a great game.
V however is the black sheep and rightfully so.

>>359356
Never got the sense that people hated Mario 2.
Just that it isn't considered as iconic as the original or as kick ass as 3.

Zelda 2 didn't do shit because it wasn't generally liked. Most we got out of that were town names for oot NPCs and dark link.

>>361752
>Zelda 2 didn't do shit because it wasn't generally liked.
Confirmed for underage. Zelda 2 was liked even more than Zelda 1 back then.

>>361761
I don't believe that for one second.

>>361768
>>361761
Although wikipedia seems to agree with you.
Although Nintendo Power Game of the Year 1988 is hardly a legitimate award.

I played and reached the end for both of them.
They were not bad games. They were just different.
THIS is one ugly duckling.
IT was so bad that killed the series of duke nukem and ruined the long waited sequel.

>>361784
Nintendo Power used to be fucking AWESOME.

Only during the 90's did it become shit.

>>359756
>>359785
>>361481

How was the original reception on Dracula X?

>>358869
>What semblance does Zelda II have to the rest of the series?

What does that matter? Why do people use this line of thinking to proclaim Zelda II as "bad"?

>>358486
SMB2, many of the enemies went on to be iconic figures that appeared in later games. Zelda 2 was just bad, too much of a change from the original game.

>>359710
>Metroid 2, the ugly duckling

I bet you think the same for Virtual Boy Wario Land?

>>361761
>>361768
I dunno about the rest of the world, but AoL was the go-to Zelda game in my household. We all loved playing it.

>>362001
Lukewarm.

On-Topic AoL added/brought more to the series, but I enjoyed SMB 2 more.
On a different note, this seems the best thread to ask, how/when did Japan introduce the DDP enemies into the Mario universe, and with what explanation? Did they just go, "Ok, those guys with masks from that other game? Yeah, them. They're Mario characters now, deal with it."

>>362073
They also released Super Mario Bros. USA in Japan.

>>362073
>On a different note, this seems the best thread to ask, how/when did Japan introduce the DDP enemies into the Mario universe, and with what explanation? Did they just go, "Ok, those guys with masks from that other game? Yeah, them. They're Mario characters now, deal with it."

Dunno about other spin-offs, but I first noticed a lot of them in Super Mario RPG.

>>362082
during the NES era? Not trying for sarcasm, legit question.

>>362098
Yes

>>362073
I think the success of the game in the west and then in the east, later, basically drove Doki Doki Panic into the shadows and the Mario universe sucked it into it's own.

>>362098
In 92, a year before Super Mario All-Stars which featured it, the real SMB2 (Lost Levels), and it still sold like crazy.

>>361752

>Zelda 2 didn't do shit

wrong

>it wasn't generally liked

wrong

>Most we got out of that were town names for oot NPCs and dark link

wrong

>>362207
>>it wasn't generally liked
>wrong

wrong

wrong

what are we doing

>>362317
wrong

>>362001
Dracula X wasn't horribly bad, it was just a bastardised version of Rondo

it's like Harmony of Dissonance, that was just a gimped version of SotN with Juste replacing Alucard and it sucked

Dracula X wasn't horribly bad, it was just a bastardised version of Rondo

it's like Harmony of Dissonance, that was just a gimped version of SotN with Juste replacing Alucard

>>362358
meant to be a reply to
>>362001

>>362358
I liked both HoD and SotN.

>>359356
Thank you.
As a kid I always hated how everyone and thier dog always played as (Princess) Peach (Toadstool) (or which ever name applies the most at the time).

Ohhh she can fly. Luigi jumps just as far, (and is more amusing to watch him jump with his feet going crazy), Luigi can jump higher. (Luigi can reach certain Shortcuts on height and distance when Peach can only make distance).
Toad was super strong, great for collecting coins, and didn't take forever to lift a vegetable. (or other heavy objects). Oh and Toad was SO strong, he didn't get slowed down by heavy objects...carrying them made him FASTER.
The only real benefits to playing Princess over Luigi or Toad:
Precision landing - You can decide when to end her floating and just drop.
Object lifting immunity - during the animation phase of lifting heavy objects (the ones that slow everyone but Toad down to lift), the character becomes immune to enemies, so a well timed pick up can let you dodge a Cobrat bullet or a flurry, or if there's mushroom blocks available, a birdo egg/fireball.
Mind you that second thing works for everyone, but is dependant on the length of the lifting animation, Toad can do it too, (and by proxy anyone can do it equally using lighter objects) but the timing is far more precise.

>>362558
luigi s-tier cause there were a few secrets/shortcuts that only he was able to do cause of his jump

mask used to scare the shit out of me

>>358797
what? WHAT? the japanese version? it was in all versions.

Didn't the Japanese version of all stars have it as SMB USA? I didn't think it was released in the NES in Japan though

>>362223

Zelda 2 was the shit when it came out.

>>362806
Yes, just like America and Europe got SMB2J.

>>359710
>>358578

Stop trying to claim Metroid II is the 'ugly duckling'. It set the standard for all the 2D Metroid games in both gameplay and story. And it is pretty much the best looking original Game Boy game.

As for the two games above, Mario 2 isn't even an 'ugly duckling' either. And the only reason Zelda 2 is considered one is because so many fans think its too hard and don't like the side scrolling gameplay. 2D Action/Platformers happen to be my favorite genre so I love Zelda 2. And I wish it would get a solid remake in the same way Metroid: Zero Mission did.

But to answer OP, Zelda 2 probably added more to its series just in sheer amount of content. Adding a magic system, new items, new enemies, new locations, new lore, expanding Hyrule, etc. But that isn't to say Mario 2 didn't add a lot to its series as well. Practically everything in Mario 2 has been reused in later games except perhaps Wart and using magic potions to make doors.

>>363290
Well wait...what about the fact that both series' have had their stuff seen in the opposites games? Most relevant being Wart used as the King Frog that teaches the third ocarina song in Link's Awakening?

Mario 2 contributed to Zelda. There I said it.

This one's debateable, but Hammers used to break open passages in the overworld?
Zelda 2 contributed to Mario.

Mind=blown. (maybe?)

I'm currently playing FF2 (NES), and besides the fact the grind would be absolutely unbearable without abusing the select-cancel trick, it's actually a decent classic jrpg that paved the way for many popular aspects of future FF games. Also total freedom in character building is fun.

>>363341

Oh yeah, I forgot about the Frog King in Link's Awakening. Though its not specifically said to be Wart, but definitely suppose to be an homage to him.

As for hammers in Mario 3, that's entirely valid. Because the Whistle Theme in Mario 3 is also the same Whistle theme in Zelda 1.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wM5tiRoP6c8

The reason these things are so similar is because Takashi Tezuka was a head designer on all the Mario and Zelda games. And still is, though not as involved as he used to be.

>>363387
>>363341 again.
Even better, the whistles serve the same function: blow whistle, play same song, get tornado that whisks you away. (I'd wager if there were another Zelda game with a whistle/flute/recorder/ocarina type instrument with multiple songs, that that song is the "summon a tornado" song.)

>>359756
It's a really good game, but I really disliked having limited continues. It seems to me Genesis was more arcade-ish in that way, lots of games that have you start from the beginning.

>>363341
>Most relevant being Wart used as the King Frog that teaches the third ocarina song in Link's Awakening

Or the chain chomps
or Yoshi
Cheep-Cheeps
Boo
Shy-guys
Blooper
Goomba

If you overlook the difficulty in zelda 2 it actually is a really good game. Its combat is alot more interesting than other rpgs of the time. Neither game is bad in my opinion

>>363436
>>363341 me
I almost forgot about the Shy Guys. Doesn't help that they're only in like one cave.
The others I am aware of but neglected to mention them cause I was trying to focus on things specifically from Mario 2 or Zelda 2.

>>363385
You realize FF2 is one of the shittiest out there.
And teh character building was done better in many many other games.
Although they be job based rather than skill based so that might dampen your spirits

>>363475
>Combat
>interesting
I'll give you that, but the combat was shit. It was different, but it was shit.
I honestly think I would have liked Zelda 2 better if he didn't have a fucking butterknife.
I think a few more pixels in length would have really made it better.

>>363524
Do you just wish that so you could hit all the enemies that liked to hover just outside of your sword's range? (Lizalfos comes to mind, pretty much anything with the Iron Knuckle's approach AI)

Zelda 2 was fucking great. Final Fantasy 2. Eh. Just replayed it. Not feeling it. Probably the worst I've played excluding, X and XIII

>>363508
I don't see what's so bad about it compared to 1 and DQ1~2. Leveling is slow, yeah, but overall the game is far from being the pile of garbage i was expecting it to be.

>>363625
its not terrible it just isnt that great especially in comparison to the rest of the series

>>363625
It's not that bad, it's just not that good, like >>363780 said. Why play FF2 when you can play 1 or 4-6.

>>363625

As a massive fan of RPGs that focus more on gameplay over story (FF8 is my favorite FF game for example), I tried very hard to like FF2. The reason it fails is not because of its combat engine or leveling mechanics (though they also have many issues). its because the game is forced to also be stuck in the same linear story as other FF games. You are actually penalized for exploring outside the set areas NPCs tell you to go by enemies way too strong for your level. And there's even areas in the game where enemies on the overworld are stronger than the enemies in the dungeons you just fought (fucking Gigas enemies outside one dungeon are stronger than the Gigas monsters IN the dungeon).

Add all this with the fact that you keep having to go back and forth to the same towns and locations, it becomes apparent that any originality they tried to put into the gameplay of FF2 was overtaken by its horrible game flow. You just can't take advantage of a system that's suppose to let you level however you want when you are stuck on a linear path fighting very specific types of monsters.

>>362005
And why do people forget when Zelda II came out the only Zelda game around was the first, why are you faulting a game not being enough like a game that had no sequels prior to its conception? Lots of games had sequels that were nothing like their first game, they either went on to be like the second or went back to being like the first. It is not a fault, get over it