/vr/ - Retro Games

>>3585776
No idea, I'm guessing many PC gamers played Goldeneye after they played Half-Life and so they got their chronology confused.

Anyway Half Life should be credited for bringing continuous level design to the FPS genre, where one level seamlessly (albeit with loading) transitions to another.

because half-life is a superior 60fps game when compared to the 30fps controller using garbage that was goldeneye.

half-life spawned a ridiculous amounts of mods that went on to become games in their own right. goldeneye inspired, what, timesplitters as an example of a good console fps? and even that game is wasted being on console

plus, the cinematic seamless design is what half-life is credited for. goldeneye still uses cutscenes to explain it's story whereas half-life does not.

>>3585814
>goldeneye still uses cutscenes to explain it's story

You were trying to prove you never played the game right?

>>3585776


Ah cmon, I played the everloving shit out of both games, and loved both games, but from an FPS perspective there really was no comparison. Goldeneye was clunky as fuck, AI was silly, animations were unnatural. HL1 AI was certainly gimmicky but still gave a convincing illusion of intelligence, had puzzle elements instead of just being a straight shooter, etc

>>3585814
>goldeneye still uses cutscenes to explain it's story
It really doesn't though. GoldenEye's cutscenes are all "Bond walks away" or "Camera circle to where Bond is standing". All the actual storytelling, with perhaps the exception of Bond snogging Natalya for 10 minutes, takes place entirely in first person. You chase Alec in first person. You fight in first person. He talks to you and runs away, in first person. You kill him, in first person. Then the level ends, and Bond jumps off the platform in third person.

I'm not exactly sure why this has been so overlooked over the years.

Easy
Half Life has mods and online play, custom levels
With a console game you're stuck with whats on the game pak

>>3585819
>>3585823
>it totally didn't have cutscenes, except where it did. gosh didn't you play it?!

>>3585820
>Goldeneye was clunky as fuck, AI was silly, animations were unnatural.
GoldenEye had motion captured animations that were smooth and flowing. Half Life had incredibly stiff animations and stiff shooting. I mean, the shooting in Half Life fucking sucks. They took Quake shooting mechanics and somehow made them even worse than they already were.

>>3585820
>Goldeneye was clunky as fuck

Hold up, this has no bearing on what OP was writing about. Whether you think Goldeneye was clunkier or not doesn't impact the fact that it told its story through the gameplay which was very unusual for the time.

Also Goldeneye came out over a year before Half-Life, so it's not really unexpected that it would be clunkier or technically more simplistic...

>>3585820
>had puzzle elements instead of just being a straight shooter, etc
But GoldenEye was the exact opposite of a "straight shooter". The entire game was based around completing objectives like hacking things, stealing documents, and general "spy stuff". The entire game is a puzzle of sorts where you use trial and error to figure out how to do what you're meant to do.

In Half Life, you literally just walk forward because there's only one way to go and all the doors are fake.

>>3585830
>Also Goldeneye came out over a year before Half-Life
you mean it came out on console which limited it's ability to do more

>>3585776
>What exactly did Half-Life bring to the FPS genre that Duke Nukem 3D hadn't already?

GoldenEye was released on August 25, 1997.

In August 1997, Marc Laidlaw was hired at Valve, and Half-Life was scrapped and started over again. Half-Life was finally released in November 8, 1998.

The reason this is very curious is because what it means is the version of the game we know and love didn't begin development until AFTER GoldenEye's release.

To compare, Turok 2 was released on October 21, 1998. And Iguana admitted in interviews that the game was heavily based on GoldenEye.

Thief: The Dark Project was released on November 30, 1998. It was openly influenced by GoldenEye. The most blatant influence is the idea of giving the player more objectives and access to new areas of the level on higher difficulties.

>>3585832
Dude lmao this mustard-like behavior is pathetic

N64 has its own Half-Life clone. It's called Turok 3

>>3585838
>N64 has its own Half-Life clone. It's called Turok 3
Fun fact. A lot of the Turok 3 team ended up at Midway Austin, where they made Area 51, which is a rather good Half Life 2 clone.

>>3585834
Duke 3D was super innovative, especially in terms of environmental interactivity, but it wasn't really a story-driven FPS game. Its story was limited to quips. There weren't NPCs standing around talking as you roamed the levels.

Duke 3D had really cool scripting, but it didn't use that scripting to tell a story. It used it to further the gameplay.

>>3585783
Quake 2 did that earlier.

Really, the majority of games we hold up as examples of pioneering in gaming actually owe their greatness to lesser predecessors. We forget the first attempts because they're usually academic in nature, while a game that uses a well compiled version of the idea takes the credit.

That said though, I don't care which game really came first with a specific mechanic, because I hold up all of them as great examples in gaming. It was never about one single feature, but the entire package and how well it comes together.

>>3585842
>Quake 2 did that earlier.

Oops yeah that is quite right. I guess Half-Life truly is the Halo of the PC. Didn't invent anything but brought a lot of features together from other games into a single cohesive package. I suppose that although the parts had been done before, the sum of parts hadn't.

>>3585776
>look mommy, i posted it again

>>3585841
disregard this. I meant GE64

>>3585814
>Goldeneye
>30 fps

If only, if only...

>>3585856
Half-Life's biggest achievement wasn't the fact the world was linked together, but the fact that nearly all the story after the railway was told via in game actions and dialog. Very rarely was control taken from the player.

Although seeming like a minor thing to some, people praise it because unlike Goldeneye, where much of the setup is told via a mission briefing in text by various handlers or a JRPG which periodically expands text boxes with written dialog in them while a scene plays, Half-Life manages to convey its world differently.

It's not even that other games hadn't done something similar, but that very few had done it to the same degree or as well.

>>3585892
I guess OP's point was that Goldeneye did have a huge number of moments where the story was told without control being taken away from the player.

In fact, control isn't taken away from the player from the moment the mission begins until the end. But yes, it is a matter of degree.

Goldeneye couldn't have entirely seamless in-game storytelling like Half Life because, unlike Half Life, it had a mission format. But it certainly does to the extent that the mission format permits.

>>3585831
>The entire game was based around completing objectives like hacking things, stealing documents, and general "spy stuff".

So instead of finding the blue skull key to open the blue door, you found the transmitter and used it on the terminal.

oh boy what a world of difference.

>>3585837
>access to new areas of the level on higher difficulties.

Spiderman Animated Series on Genesis did that and it was released in 1995 and developed by fucking LJN.

But I'm sure that there were plenty of other games before that gave you more levels on higher difficulty. Streets of Rage 3 could only access the last level if you played at least on Medium.

>>3585841
>There weren't NPCs standing around talking as you roamed the levels.

No, instead of having NPCs standing around talking, it had NPCs standing around and showing you their tits.

>>3585936
Are you being willingness obtuse?

All video games involve moving from A to B. So that means they are all the same.

>>3585776
>seamless world. no level / mission format
>tense atmosphere
>online play
>mods

>>3585776
>le RARE IS MY LIFE meme

>>3585776
>What exactly did Half-Life bring to the FPS genre that GoldenEye hadn't already?

Mouse end keyboard.

>all these pcfats who can't rebut OP so they start arbitrarily listing half-life's list of features

>>3585776
Goldeneye was a milestone in console FPS but dont delude yourself into thinking it is nearly on the same level as Half Life. Goldeneye is a good console shooter meaning it was in say a High School league. Half Life was the best in the professionals.

Console Peasant

>>3586002

>>3585814
>because half-life is a superior 60fps game

That would be a struggle in 1998. Maybe if you were playing half-life a few years later with a geforce, but not at launch.

Pic related was considered high end performance for a modern FPS in 1998. This is with a good 3D card and a pentium 2 400MHZ system.

Half Life used a version of the quake engine which was slightly less demanding than Unreal, but most Quake 2 players were not hitting 60fps even in 1998 unless they turned resolution and other features down.

Most PC gamers played Half life and the other FPS of the era at lower res and struggled between 20~30fps. Only a small elite group could afford to play these games at a higher frame rate.

>>3586006
Half-Life got a 97% on PCGamer, it's that good. GOAT levels even.

Goldeneye is a kiddie shit in comparison.

>>3586006
So what?

You based your opinion of other people?

And I am sure Goldeneye does have better rankings. For a console game it was amazing. For a PC game, it was merely good. A bunch of console magazines gave it a good review. Half Life is held to a much higher standard.

Goldeneye competed with toned down ports of old PC games, Half Life competed with Quake 2 and modern FPS.

>>3586006
>Aggregate reviews trump one person's personal opinion.
It's like you don't know what subjectivity is.

>>3585996
xD we did it reddit

>>3586031
>For a console game it was amazing. For a PC game, it was merely good

i can smell the cheetos on your breath from here

>>3586036
lol, the cheeto eating, fedora wearing, mountain dew drinking stereotype applies to console fags too. We just have better graphics, features, control, gameplay, and mods.

You are inferior in everyway.

>>3586031
>Goldeneye competed with toned down ports of old PC games, Half Life competed with Quake 2 and modern FP

Except Quake 2 is fucking shit and was on the N64 without much fanfare genius. Stop trying to meme Quake 2 into this discussion, the main reason people like Quake 2 is for the multiplayer and a large part of the reason for that is it was the first FPS around.

>>3586042
>same anon.
I mean one of the first FPS around with good multiplayer, a new genre and just starting to make a whole community about it, before being more or less blown away by Quake 3. Curse 4chan not being able to edit posts.

>>3586040
>defining superiority through the arbitrary use of 20 year old beige "gaming" boxes that cost $2500

way to live up to the stereotype

>>3586042
lol, a shitty port was on N64. Its like a retarded version of Einstein. Goldeneye was mediocre it just had shit game for competitions and console fags shit their pants because they never played a good FPS before.

>>3586045

All the negative stereotypes of FPS gamers came from the quake community.

The game itself was shit, and looked like shit, but the fanbase was extremely competitive and very elitist.

>>3586047
Nah we are still superior today.

Dont worry peasant in a few years you will get 4k or free/g-sync.

>>3586049
Stop making shit up when you have no clue about them. The N64 port was considered excellent.

http://www.gamerankings.com/n64/198378-quake-ii/index.html

>>3586059
In any case Quake 2 on N64 is a completely different game with different levels and a different sound track. Like Half-Life, it is built on a heavily modified Quake 1 engine, not Quake 2.

Curiously enough, it supports 24 bit color with Expansion Pak which is a higher color depth than any 3D accelerator on PCs supported in 1997. I think it might be the only 3D N64 game to do so.

>>3586059
Considered good for a port. For a PC game it would have been shit. It is basically quake 2 stripped down. It is like taking a pizza, removing it all except one slice, taking off all the toppings, and then taking a shit on the pizza. For consoles this is still considered good. For the master race it is laughable bad.

Like I said you play in the special Olympics and we play in the pros.

>>3585776
To be fair, Goldeneye had constant interruptions in the form of mission select and cutscenes. Half-Life never took you out of Gordon's eyes, so the immersion was better, and being able to do whatever in the "cutscene" moments made it feel more natural. They didn't baby you with the controls, while Goldeneye needed auto-aim because playing an FPS with the N64 controller is torture. There was also a fair bit of variation in Half Life too, including killing the tentacle in the rocket bay, sending a sattelite into space, running from the Apache in the dam (and dealing with in on the cliffs), and the entirety of Xen. Goldeneye didn't have much variation besides "walk here, grab thing, shoot gun-toting baddies. Speaking of, Half Life also had cool squad tactics for it's time, whereas Goldeneye's thugs did little other than run to you and shoot. Not that it wasn't hard, but there wasn't much AI to talk about in Goldeneye. Also, Half Life spawned Counter Strike and Team Fortress.

>>3586121
>Goldeneye didn't have much variation besides "walk here, grab things

>>3586121
Man, if you're going to troll at least do it transparently like the post above yours. That is one of the stupidest most senseless posts I have ever seen about the comparison.

>>3586121
>Goldeneye didn't have much variation besides "walk here, grab thing, shoot gun-toting baddies

Did you even fucking play the game or is this more conjecture from people who never even gave Goldeneye a second look?

The Dam is a sniping level.
The Faculty is a stealth level with a cool set piece at the end.
The Runaway is a vehicle level.
Surface is a level in a hugely wide-open free roaming area.
Bunker is a stealth level
Silo is a pure action level.
Frigate is a hostage rescue level.
Surface II is like Surface I but tougher
Bunker II is like Bunker I but tougher
Statue Park is a level filled with set-pieces.
Military Archive is a stealth level with a very cool set piece at the start.
Streets is a vehicle level.
Depot is an exploration level
Train is a carriage-by-carriage action level with a hostage set piece at the end.
Jungle is like a guerrilla warfare level and takes place in a vastly different environment to other levels.
Control is an escort level.
Caverns is an action level
Cradle is an action level with a 1v1 duel at the end.
Aztac is a tough action level where you can launch a shuttle into space.
Egyptian is a puzzle level with a 1v1 duel.

>>3586140
sorry your game can be explain simplistically, doesn't mean anon's wrong

>>3585978
Already done by Doom and Wolfenstein 3D (keyboard + mouseturning) as well as Quake and Duke Nukem 3D (keyboard + freelook)

>>3586121
>Goldeneye needed auto-aim because playing an FPS with the N64 controller is torture
Except the game is actually easier to play with the auto-aim turned off.

>>3586209
On top of that, playing on 00 Agent mode itself neuters 90% of the auto aim's sensitivity.

>>3585814
>>>/v/

>>3586020
>it's that good. GOAT levels even
Corridors everywhere

>>3586218
thanks for the late response!

>>3586209
When I was a kid I everyone was so obsessed with Goldeneye that I sometimes threw little arguments in Quake's favour to show that it was a great game as well. I was right about so many things like speed, framerate, atmosphere but the one thing I was completely wrong about was auto-aim. Auto-aim works and is good, period. Complaining about the auto-aim in goldeneye is just dumb, the thing works fine, and can you turn it off? I forget. On paper it sounds better "I don't need autoaim hurr I'm such a man", in reality it's perfect. Yes you still have to have good aim.

>>3585943
okay, so then you agree that Goldeneye did nothing special. Thanks.

>>3585837

I was going to go on a spiel about Dark Forces ('95, Lucasarts), but the real answer is System Shock ('94, Looking Glass Studios). System Shock did the contiguous levels, storytelling within the engine style of gameplay first (and by the way, they're the same company that made Thief - so no, GoldenEye likely wasn't the influence on Thief, it was System Shock).

Admittedly, it was cruder than GoldenEye in some aspects (there are no helpful NPCs that I can remember).

>>3585832
KEK N64 had the best 3D in the world for a bit. It would've looked worse had they designed it around the pc hardware available at the time the game was conceived.

>>3586007
I wonder what framerate I was playing at when I first played Half-Life. I didn't even know what framerate was at the time. I know I played at 800x600 resolution, and there was a RIVA TNT 2 Ultra in my parents' Gateway desktop (cow box and everything), but I think I played in software mode the whole time anyway, lol.

>>3586251
auto-aim works for gamepads because they lack the precision of mouse+keyboard, but they are for noobs on PC. No skilled PC gamer needs auto-aim.

Who fuckin' cares?

>>3586429

TNT 2 Ultra was a solid performer for mid-1999 and it would have run Half Life just fine on the Pentium 3 it was paired it. Creative used it in that summer's flagship 3D blaster and really pushed them at best Buy.

For only $350 it was a hell of a video card at the time considering its serious competitors were closer to $400.

>>3586459

Forgot to mention that the TNT was my last video card before embracing the geforce family. I was still on the TNT 2 when Deus ex came out (but any time chain link fence was on screen the game would slow or crash).

>>3586270
>so no, GoldenEye likely wasn't the influence on Thief, it was System Shock).

"One of the Thief team's favorite games during development was Goldeneye on the N64. We were particularly struck by the manner in which levels of difficulty were handled. Each level of difficulty had a different overlapping set of objectives for success, and missions were subtly changed at each level in terms of object placement and density. Relatively late in the development of Thief, we decided such a system would work well in our game. Extending the concept, we added a notion that as difficulty increased, the level of toleration of murder of human beings decreased. We also allowed players to change their difficulty level at the beginning of each mission. The system was a success in two ways. First, it made clear to the player exactly what "difficulty" meant. Second, it allowed the designers to create a very different experience at each level of difficulty, without changing the overall geometry and structure of a mission. This gave the game a high degree of replayability at a minimum development cost."

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131762/postmortem_thief_the_dark_project.php?page=2