/vr/ - Retro Games

As someone that has played his first wizardy game over 25 years ago. I want to say that map drawing isn't fun and is a needles chore that just slows down exploration. It's as stupid as typing in spell names to cast yet no one sane is nostalgic about it.

You can have multiple saves in Wizardry 6, they're just a bit complicated to handle.
A practical approach is to only save when you are in a save spot such as near fountains.

Try Might and Magic if you want something less mean. 3 onward are for beginners, 1 and 2 for more experienced players.
Wizardry 5 is a fairer entry into Wizardry. Still quite difficult but with less bullshit than the rest.

>>3514354
Location-disorientation effects (looping edges, teleporters, spinners, dark areas, etc.) are spoiled by auto-mapping, so if a game uses those, then manual mapping is necessary, at least in those areas. (You could have both automapped and non-automapped areas in different parts of the same game with some kind of story bullshit explaining it.)
Though the game could provide a mapping tool specialized to that game to make it more convenient.

Bard's Tale, at least the first one, only lets you save your characters at the inn, so it's not possible to get stuck somewhere.

>>3514382
Wizardry 6 has only looping edges of those except for one place with wraparound.
The rest would be too harsh given that you have no location spell and the whole world is connected.
Mordor/Demise had a system where you would only map if you knew where you were and you needed a skill to properly identify fields.

What I liked about manual mapping was that you can take everything you see into account while automaps only map the square you stand in. And you can keep your progress even if you died.

>>3514402
>And you can keep your progress even if you died.
Ah yeah player-progress independent of character progress is kind of a fun thing; you can experiment more without being nagged by map completion percentages.
Also applies to stuff like discovering a password written on a wall.

>>3514252
Might and Magic series

>>3514382
> mapping tool
Look up Etrian Odyssey series on the DS. Not retro, but you might like it.

>>3514471
I haven't played any, but I read it displays a dot on the mapping screen to show you exactly where you are, which seems like it defeats the purpose of having manual mapping. (Well, defeats the stuff in >>3514382 anyway. If you can keep the map independent of your game save file then you still get >>3514432)

>>3514252
Lands of Lore

>>3514631
The EO games are tough enough without making you lose track of where you are if your mind happens to drift off for a bit. When you have a 30-teleporter maze to deal with, the automapping and location tracking aren't there to make things easy; they're there to keep you sane.

SMT 1&2 were pretty great imo

Try the early Might and Magic games (I-V). M&M III and up are really accessible and easy to get into.

>>3514252
The problem with Wiz VI with regard to mapping is that its maps are way more complex and sprawling than any of the previous games but Wiz IV, which was intentionally difficult beyond belief. There's a reason the SNES port of the game gave the player automapping and it's because manually mapping gets annoying with extremely large maps.

>>3514846
The maps in VI will normally fit on a single page, main exception being the river. The problem you face is that the maps connect to each other so you have to pay attention on when to start a new map.
In V the single floors are larger but you don't have a continuity between them. e.g. two stairs next to each other don't have to reach to the same destination.

OP here, thanks for all the suggestions.

I really liked Wizardry's approach, especially with the idea of each level having a unique theme it is built around, with lots of puzzles and clues you're trying to figure out. I am definitely planning on coming back and giving the series another shot once I get a bit more familiarity with the genre.

In addition to all the games mentioned here, the Eye of the Beholder series seems to come up a lot as well. I'm leaning between that and the Might and Magic games, but I'm also open to anything else that might still come to mind.

Also wanted to say a little bit about how cool it is to go back to retro games like this and find really creative and interesting ideas that have been forgotten by modern RPGs. The big titles have become so obsessed with creating epic stories and huge scope, and have instead given us shallow depth and a lack of focus. I really like the feeling of being lost and slowly figuring out where I am. I like trying to develop and optimize my party. I think the riddles and traps and puzzles are awesome and interesting. Going through level designs that work around interesting themes and and specific dungeon mechanics is fun as hell. It really feels like you're playing the campaign of a great DM, who thought about every part of the experience. I don't think I've felt that from a "modern" rpg. Goddamn.

it's a very simple game, but i like the original megami tensei, especially the SNES remake

For anyone who wants to play these classic CRPGs with no automapper, but don't want to use graph paper, I recommend the free version of grid cartographer. Works great.

>>3516284
Heads up that every Might and Magic game after the first game comes with an automapper. The first game's final boss is a crazy maze though.

>>3514791
But he wants to map himself...
I suppose you could regardless of if there is a map in game or not.

>>3516607
There's plenty of classic RPGs for him to play first that don't come with an automapper.

The Dark Heart of Uukrul has very good puzzle/dungeon design, but it's a bit on the higher difficulty end of things.

Not Wizardry IV level of stupid hard, but I had to read an FAQ for quite a few of the puzzles because they were just above my intelligence level (like the crossword puzzle one)

Do the NES/SNES ports add any gameplay improvements? I found the first Wizardry for the NES but haven't played it yet.

>>3516834
Play the SNES version for 1-3. It comes with some extra options. There's a translation patch so you can get stuff like spell descriptions inside the game.
The NES has some odd changes and extra censorship in the US release.

>>3516834
>>3516857
Also in the NES version armor (AC) does nothing. Don't play it. Play the apple II version for maximum retrofeels.

>>3514252

>>3516691
>>3514382
Uukrul mostly has automap but turns it off at tricky parts (spinners etc) so it did your idea

I did not get far in that game tho

Dungeon Magic is pretty cool.

>>3516425
Seconding Grid Cartographer. In addition to 1st person dungeon crawlers, I'm using it for the dungeons in Haja no Fuuin.

>>3517134
>>3517593
Which is the best of those two?

>>3516691

This seems really neat, but the combat system is not giving me a great first impression. I'll probably give it another couple of hours to see if it clicks.

>>3517134
>>3517593

NES seems pretty underpowered and low in buttons. Aren't the dungeon crawlers on the system fairly basic?

And on this topic, I remember a few 16-bit dungeon crawlers. One I rented (but never finished) was Arcana on the SNES, which I remember being fairly mediocre. At retro shops I've also seen ports of Wizardry, Eye of the Beholder and Might and Magic, but other than the already mentioned Shin Megami Tensei, I'm not really aware of any other console titles from the era.

>>3518361
>This seems really neat, but the combat system is not giving me a great first impression. The combat's slow at the start when you're fighting bats and dogs but once you get a couple of spells, consumables and Priest Summons actually start succeeding instead of failing 90% of the time, it starts getting good IMO - about as good as Gold Box

>>3518361
>This seems really neat, but the combat system is not giving me a great first impression.
The combat's slow at the start when you're fighting bats and dogs but once you get a couple of spells, consumables and Priest Summons actually start succeeding instead of failing 90% of the time, it starts getting good IMO - about as good as Gold Box

>>3514252

I just finished the Eye of the Beholder games. (2 is the best if you only want to play one of them, but you can import your party through the whole trilogy) I think they are a pretty good first foray into these types of games. It has shitty real time combat, but you can save everywhere and it isn't all that difficult overall.

Not the best games, but a good way to ween into the genre.

>>3517874
Guy who posted Dungeon Magic here. I sadly have not played Swords & Serpents. Nintendo Power made it seem really cool, especially the 4-player stuff.

>>3518361
>NES seems pretty underpowered and low in buttons. Aren't the dungeon crawlers on the system fairly basic?

The NES is fine, power wise (comparable to a C64 or Apple ][). Wizardry 1 was made for the Apple ][, and it was written in Pascal to be passed to a bytecode interpreter rather than being being written in 6502 ASM and put directly into machine code.

Low in buttons is a good point, but it basically restricts a game to using a lot of menus and sub-menus, which I don't think is a terrible thing for a turn based game (not like it would be for a platformer).

Wizardry and Might & Magic were ported to the NES, and bugs aside, I think they are as complex as their computer counterparts. I haven't played the NES versions of either, so I might be wrong about that.

Dungeon Magic does lack the variety of equipment and character classes present in Wizardry, but the magic system is more complex. The puzzles are also somewhat less cruel.

>>3519385
Only M&M1 was ported to the NES and they removed the ability to create your own party.
Wizardry is missing the ability to transfer characters between the games in the North American release, which is a pretty big deal in Knight of Diamonds. The Famicom allowed that via extra hardware.

>>3519385
>it was written in Pascal to be passed to a bytecode interpreter rather than being being written in 6502 ASM and put directly into machine code.
that's actually pretty cool, i thought the home computers of that era were too weak for that kind of stuff