/vr/ - Retro Games

Smaller numbers on armor class is better, read up on THAC0

Your -2 AC chainmail isn't cursed, it's better than 5 AC leather.

>>3462617
- when a character tells you that they're on a quest, they really are on a quest and will want to do it relatively soon, if you don't go where they want they'll eventually leave the party. There's at least one instance Kivan that might require you to advance the plot quickly because it's in a location you don't have access to yet.
- Find Traps is useful, especially since you can wander into dungeons with lightning-bolt traps that will one-shot your party early on. Remember that it's not instant, you might have to wait a few seconds for a trap to appear.
- character alignment matters, if you're going for a standard "do quests, help people" playthrough, don't recruit evil characters or they'll bitch at you for being a do-gooder and eventually leave.
- if you're playing the enhanced edition, use/abuse the "highlight containers" button. If it's the original, know that the game likes to hide some useful items in a very assholish way (as in, you have to mouse over a tiny spot in a random tree stump, hard to find even if you know precisely where to look) so you might wanna see a guide about that.
- some enemies might require a magical weapon (i.e. +X or higher, X depends on enemy type) to harm them, so if you're getting "weapon ineffective" it might be that. Spells might help.
- going mage on your main character is fun but you'll have the resilience of a wet tissue and it's instant game over if your main dies, so fighter is less stressful.
- magic items don't like to stack so you can carry one enchantment of each type, e.g. you can't use bracers of protection and ring of protection, but bracers of protection and ring of fire resistance is fine.

>>3462617
>>3462703
Fuck I forgot something. If you have an item that has a specific ability to trigger, like a necklace of missiles or a charming cloak, you do it by equipping it and using the "use item" button on the main screen. Not from the inventory, not from the quick item slots. Confused the fuck out of me.

>>3462617

This is the best advice you will get in this thread, OP:

Read DSimpson's AD&D rules FAQ on GameFAQs.

It explains the way the Baldur's Gate character attributes, combat system, magic system, proficiency system, thief skills and XP systems work. It also touches on multi and dual classing.

The guide is ESSENTIAL reading as many aspects of the AD&D rules are counter-intuitive.

Once you've absorbed it, character and party creation and levelling up will make a lot more sense and be a lot more enjoyable.

>>3462617

Wisdom is important

>>3462617

You must gather your party before venturing forth

>>3463026
this, increase the amount of memory allocated to pathfinding if you're not playing enhanced edition

>>3462617
Read the manual. Fireball spam is very effective.

>>3462617
You should know a little something about ADnD.

>>3463029
Also increase the game speed to 60 FPS. Might look hilariously fast at times but it's better than dying of boredom or abandoning the game halfway through.

If you're playing enchanted edition, for the love of God ignore their new party members and content.

>>3463721
Disregard this anon it will be a complete clusterfuck with the game playing 2 times as fast and will break ingame cutscenes.

>>3464148
nothing of value lost desu

>>3462617
every week we get these threads like clockwork

>>3462617

Spells like sleep or horror are really effective crowd control at low levels.

Avoid melee at first. Ranged weapons and kiting enemies will keep you alive until you gain a few levels.

>>3464284
Shh. I wanna believe there are still people playing BG1 for the first time.

The more people you have in your party, the slower you'll level up.

Saving before you use the "level up" function allows you to game the system for better HP rolls.

>>3463742

Aw, I like Neera.

>>3465227

Or you can just dial down the difficulty setting for "max HP on level up".

>>3465227
It doesn't matter because you will hit the level cap with a full party anyways. Also you are given so many artifacts that there's no reason to play on anything but core rules.

How much would you be willing to shill out for a perfectly working Icewind Gate II?

>>3467669

$3.50

>>3465217
Have it on my pc, still haven't played it.
I won't have internet outside of my phone for awhile so maybe now is the time.

Do not look up the location of the hidden loot as it will spoil your game if you get it early

>>3462652
It's actually pretty easy to explain. THAC0 stands for "To Hit Armor Class Zero." Basically when you roll to determine whether you hit or not you must roll the THAC0 to hit an enemy with an Armor Count of 0.

Say your THAC0 is 11. If the enemy has an AC of, let's say 4, you calculate it as 11-4=7. Meaning you really only have to roll a 7 to hit that enemy. Now let's say a character has a really good AC. We'll say -5. This means you calculate it as 11-(-5)=16. Here you have to roll a 16 to hit. A harder roll than the 7 you needed for the previous example.

>>3465230
i also like neera's gem pouch

>>3465486
Not in BG1.

>>3462617
Look up how to stat your character and how the combat system works, like THAC0(to hit armor class 0). Depending on how autistic you are, reroll until you get acceptable stats.

Pause is your friend btw.

Game is now zzZZZzzzz.

This is a really shit and boring thread.

Has anyone attempted recreational torture in any of the BG games? You find a closed location and kill all the hostiles but one. Needs to be something pretty weak, like a hobgoblin. Then you practice all your weak spells like shocking grasp and Larloch's minor drain on them, or beat them unconscious with your bare fists. Or you can summon wolves and things to savage them.

Then you heal them up before they die and do it all over again.

>>3476608
Can't say I have.

Are fighters supposed to receive an AC bonus?

>Baldur's gate is now "retro"

I wish I could reverse age

>>3476608
Dude, just do an evil run of Torment.

>>3477313

No, IIRC the AC of a "naked" character is solely driven by DEX. Some classes receive a natural AC bonus, e.g. Monks, but normal Fighters are not one of those classes. (Some fighter "kits" do get an AC bonus, however).

>>3476608
because a real man finds a strong opponent and finds it beneath him to interact with the weak

you gain pleasure from that interaction because it's a reflection of yourself, you find that you trade places with your oppressors by finding something weaker than you, but you do not have the courage to challenge something with strength and surpass yourself

>>3462703
>- Find Traps is useful, especially since you can wander into dungeons with lightning-bolt traps that will one-shot your party early on. Remember that it's not instant, you might have to wait a few seconds for a trap to appear.

You just made me remember how i didn't knew how to deactive traps until i played BG 2 tutorial. Before that i ended BG like 5 times eating all the fucking traps without exception.

>>3478768
>but normal Fighters are not one of those
Huh, I guess one of the mods I'm using broke something. Well, time for Shadow Keeper.

http://www.pocketplane.net/mambo/index.php?option=content&task=blogcategory&id=95&Itemid=78

http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/558-iep-extended-banters/

Which is better?

The

Baldur's Gate
Fallout
Planescape Torment
Arcanum

series of games are all top down view where you click you characters where to move.

Is it possible in any of these games to win against overwhelming enemy forces through the use of "micro" as seen in Starcraft?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DcaDjhM9UU

I'm talking about fast clicking and key presses not min maxing the DND system of stats-items-spells etc.

>>3479292
Dude. You can pause.

>>3462617
You're not going to need a single-class rogue, put all of Imoens points into lockpicking/ trap finding for 2-3 levels, then multiclass her to mage.

Also, most powerfull spell early on is likely sleep. forget damage spells on low level, they are all shit until level ~5. sleep drops everything that doesn't have more than 4 hit dice. If an enemy is to strong (ogre, grey wolf) kite him. attack mages and priests straight away and kill them first. If you hit them while casting, they get interrupted, very importent. Also goes for your own casters. There is an awesome armor in the fields in Nashkell, google how to find it.

ToB Extender
Ascension
BG2 Fixpack
BGT
BGT Graphics Overhaul
BG1 NPC Project and its Music Pack
BG1 Unfinished Business
BG1 Quest Pack
PPG Banter Pack
IEP Extended Banters
Friendship mods
BG2 Unfinished Business
BG2 Quest Pack
Rogue Rebalancing
SCS
BGT Tweak Pack
BG2 Tweaks
aTweaks
One Pixel Productions
BGT Music
Widescreen

This look fine?

Bump

Pick pockets is one of my favourite skills because it allows you to "punish" asshole NPCs who the storyline requires you to be nice to. By robbing them. That nobleman who was rude to you but you can't do anything because of guards? Pick pocket. Shadow Thieves sending you on dirty assassination missions that conflict with your personal ethics? Fine, I'll do your stupid mission but I'm going to systematically strip each and every one of you of your belongings.

>>3480708
>Shadow Thieves sending you on dirty assassination missions that conflict with your personal ethics? Fine, I'll do your stupid mission but I'm going to systematically strip each and every one of you of your belongings.
I prefer slaughtering them and getting paid for it. Seriously, fuck the Shadow Thieves.

http://mods.pocketplane.net/d0questpack_v3readme.htm#Section2

>>3480748
>>3479413

Fan made content is pretty terrible desu

As opposed to fan made fixes, e.g. to bugs, which I'm all in favour of

>>3480854
>blanket statement
Pretty terrible.

>>3479413
Looks like a terrible mess.

>>3462617
Fireballs = aggressive lockpicking

I've found an ethical solution to reducing your reputation to prevent evil characters from leaving your party in BG2.

Instead of your Paladin having to beat up or rob innocent bystanders, you can mercy kill the victims of Mae'Var and the Shadow Thieves who are being tortured. You can lose up to 10 rep for their murder, but no NPCs complain about it, and ethically, you've spared the poor bastards the pain of being tortured for the rest of their short, miserable lives.

I'm not sure if there are any such convenient prisoners in BG1, though.

The manuals from those old games explained everything and they were packed with lore.

The manual had a nice summary of AD&D rules and explanation of the D20 math.

I miss that era of gaming. People who play them now off of steam or pirate it are really missing out (even if they get a pdf copy of the book it is just not the same).

One cheap way to win certain fights is to block a doorway or gangway with an invisible party member. The rest of the party stand on one side of the invisible people, and you have the bad guys on the other side. You can then shoot them to death with bows and they can't get to you because they won't attack the invisible party members.

>>3481294
I always remember how the first page of BG2 was dedicated to some guy called Dan Walker from the Bioware team who died while doing the game. There was a picture of him and it was a really nice detail, today would be impossible i guess.
I even had some character called like him in his honor even when i didn't know who exactly that guy was.

>>3481275
Viconia bring dragged into the party helps too

>>3481275
>ethically, you've spared the poor bastards the pain of being tortured for the rest of their short, miserable lives
If you're roleplaying, what's your justification for not freeing them if you're already screwing the Thieves over by killing their prisoners?

>>3481685

It's physically impossible to do so.

>>3481275
GTFO euthanasia fag. Don't you know it is against God's Lawn ?

>>3481421

Dan was a spiritual giant

>>3482209
Did you knew him?

I'm contemplating starting a new campaign, heavily modded and all that, and I'm wondering whether there is any reason to pick up Enhanced Edition for that.
It is supported by Big World Setup and there seems to be some mod content exclusive to it.

>>3462617
>>3462617
>Tips for a beginner? I don't know anything about DND.
Save often.

>>3463742
Neera is good in BG2.

>>3484963
Better resolution and stuff.

I love everything about this game except gameplay. Weird huh

>>3487486
What's not to like about crappy AI and interface, weird.

>>3487486
I love every single thing about it; the perfect RPG.

>>3481294
>even if they get a pdf copy of the book it is just not the same

Yes it is stop trying to act special over owning a gay ass manual you probably paid out the anus for on ebay you fucking loser.

>>3489256
>Nobody bought the game around when it came out.
Spotted the underage.

>Edwin(a) gets his little panties in a twist over our group saving a bunch of half-dead slave miners

>splits on the spot and doesn't even thank me for the loot and spells

>have to install happy party mod so I don't lose best mage


I feel dirty, but fuck it- my rep is up, and I have Edwin.

>>3490454
Eh, feeling dirty is worth it to have the most powerful mage in the game tag along, now give him Evermemory and a Robe of the Evil Archmagi and commence twirling your moustache while he kills everything for you

>>3490454
Edwin is overrated.

>>3491731
He's statistically the best mage in the entire game.

>>3491734
Yeah but the difference is pretty marginal. Especially as the unmodded game caps levels at 6 or do.

How much bigger is BG2 compared to BG1? Is it twice as long on average?

>>3491772
Hard to say. Baldur's Gate has a lot of content, but since it is easy to hit the cap, you are unlikely to bother doing much of it in any given run. My runs are more than twice as long in 2 than 1, but I do everything in 2.

>>3491772
100% completion, both vanilla? Something like 2.5-3 bigger imo.

>>3491734
Statistically the best mage in the entire game is a Sorcerer or any dual/multi-class Mage. Edwin doesn't even have any high stats other than Intelligence and Constitution; I'd much rather have higher Dexterity for better sling shots and AC.

His massive spell selection is really not an issue when you can just use scrolls, wands, and consumables to achieve the same effect.

His stupid amulet is worse than the Amulet of Power which lets you cast spells faster and gives you permanent immunity to Silence.

Nalia > Edwin. Her heirloom item gives her saving throws and resistances, she has bonus HPs, and will open all locks in the game.

But it doesn't really matter because arcane casters are the strongest anyway.

If Quayle wasn't such a late joiner, I'd have him over Edwin.

>>3491856
Actually, for BG1, I already prefer Imoen over Edwin simply because she can dual from a thief and have better HPs, utility, and can shoot a bow, which are the strongest conventional form of combat in BG1.

>>3490605
>most powerful mage in the game

That's not Imoen.

>>3491856
>Nalia > Edwin. Her heirloom item gives her saving throws and resistances, she has bonus HPs, and will open all locks in the game.

That's not really the case. Nalia's Thief skills are so abysmal, she can't unlock even basic locks and disarm simple traps. She represents the worst dual-class dip of any character in the game. Now, Imoen can do what you claimed with her far superior Thief/Mage dip.

But in a straight up contest between Nalia and Edwin, her -4 Dex + -2 Ring bonus on AC doesn't amount to a whole lot for a class that can never really attain a good AC. Whereas Edwin's Amulet of bonus spells to all levels scales powerfully all the way through to the end of Throne of Bhaal.

So in terms of use, I'd say:

Imoen is the best because she negates the need of having to take a Thief with the group, freeing up an extra slot, while still maintaining full Mage progression. Plus, her Bhaalspawn powers and Ability Score buffs later on hedge her statistically against the other two.

Edwin is the best singleclass Mage, hurting only for the fact that he can't take an additional role like Imoen.

And Nalia on the bottom. She doesn't have the spell selection Edwin has, nor are her Thief skills good enough to avoid taking one in the game.

I like Xan. He's good in melee.

The penultimate battle with the dukes followed directly by Savorek is complete and utter bullshit.

>>3491918
Nah mate.

Send in a bunch of skeles and a stealthed rogue. Force attack the caster, pull back your rogue out of sight. Laugh as chaos ensues

>>3491873
>That's not really the case. Nalia's Thief skills are so abysmal, she can't unlock even basic locks and disarm simple traps.

Go actually play with her.
Even if that were the case, there are so many +thief items and consumables (that you don't really have a reason not to put on her) that Nalia's thief skills will be just enough.

>She represents the worst dual-class dip of any character in the game.
If you think about her as a mage who can fire a bow and has higher HP, it really doesn't make a difference. Raw-wise, ex-Thief/Mage is still straight up superior to a Mage. She loses nothing from that.

Her ring provides huge fire resistance (slap Fireshield and something like Cloak of the Sewers and go to town) and saving throws. It's a pretty amazing item. Better than the amulet. Not many great things for her character in the ring slots, either, especially with how magic-heavy BG parties tend to be due to the amount of semi-spellcasters.

Bonus spells of all levels is really not such a big deal in a game where you can rest almost everywhere and where you can't, there's Limited Wish. And you still have a shitload of consumables.

That said, Edwin is still a strong NPC.

>>3491970
>Go actually play with her.
I have. Hell, just do the De'Arnise Keep. You'll find she can't open half the locks in her own house. And I'm not up for buying stacks of Potions of Master Thievery just so Nalia can do what Imoen does without them.

>She loses nothing from that.
But gained virtually nothing when compared to other dual-classers. Anomen's Fighter levels increase his ability massively. Imoen's Thief levels give her all the advantages of Nalia while still being strong enough to use her Thieving abilities.

>It's a pretty amazing item. Better than the amulet.
Whoa, let's not go overboard here. Her ring is good, but it's not THAT good. Fire Resistance is the most common resistance acquired in the game. 2nd level spells give 50% and 3rd give 80% and the game starts you with 4th-5th. Now Edwin's Amulet giving him two extra ninth level spells? Incomparable. And that would be if that was all it did, instead of two extra spells for every casting level.

>>3492016
>And I'm not up for buying stacks of Potions of Master Thievery
Even without Ease of Use it's a question of convenience, mostly.
>
But gained virtually nothing when compared to other dual-classers. Anomen's Fighter levels increase his ability massively. Imoen's Thief levels give her all the advantages of Nalia while still being strong enough to use her Thieving abilities.

It's just three levels of Thief. That's not that much. In my experience, Nalia is really just fine for the entirety of SoA.

>Now Edwin's Amulet giving him two extra ninth level spells?

Again, very rarely do you actually have use for those slots because you can just rest, use wands, or use other tactics. The ring is useful all game. If we're looking for an ultimate spell repertoire, we are still better with Aerie.

>cheesing the Sarevok fight

Damn the man that popularized the summon strategy. I remember pre-internet spending hours and hours testing different theories and tactics fighting Sarevok to see what did and didn't work.

Like Angelo (the archer) is massively susceptible to the Blindness spell, essentially taking him out of the fight for its duration. Still, since it's a race between your spell being cast and his Arrow of Detonation being shot, it's not the worst thing in the world to have your Mage prepped with maxed Fire Resistance. A Priest's Protection from Fire will get you 80% of the way there and a Mage Robe of Fire Resistance will finish it off (I know, it's hard putting aside those Archmagi Robes for the downgrade). Everyone else can prebuff with inexpensive Scrolls of Fire Protection to mitigate a good chunk of any fireballs he gets through before being locked down.

Samej (the mage) likes to open with Protection from Normal Missiles and there's a reason for that. As a Mage, Arrows of Biting absolutely BTFO him. So, the answer to him is opening with a Dispel Magic and following up with a couple of volleys of Arrows of Biting. Or if you have a Thief with a Dagger of Venom, skip the dispel and just have him sit on Samej until he dies, he'll be locked down either way.

Tazok is no real threat since his Saving Throws are pretty garbage. Lock him out with a Confuse spell, or just debuff him and take him out. His only real threat is drawing attention away from Sarevok.

Sarevok himself drops several orders in danger magnitude if you cast Slow on him, without it, his hasted x3 attacks a round at a thAC0 low enough to trump any armor found in BG1 will gib any Tank you've got.

At that point though, he goes from team-wipingly powerful to just a really fun challenge. With an even halfway competent healer, his single attack a round is beyond manageable and you're not resorted to trying to cheese him with near-useless ranged weapons.

>>3492028
>Even without Ease of Use it's a question of convenience, mostly.
And Imoen automatically doing what Nalia requires constant costly buffing for completely invalidates Nalia's reason for existing. There's really nothing that Nalia has that Imoen isn't superior at.

Which I guess is the overarching point. Edwin's the better pick as a Mage over either of them, but if you happened to also need a Thief, there's really not going to be a scenario where you'd want to pick Nalia over Imoen as your replacement Mage.

Nalia's one of those third-string niche picks where you do it more for personality or flavor than because they're really worthwhile. She's the Cernd of the Mages.

>>3475938
EE added it.

>>3467669
Not very much. IWD 2 is really boring. And this is coming from someone who beat Pools of Radiance RoMD.

>>3492081
Cernd of the Mages is a horrible moniker because a Mage is still one of the most powerful classes in the game while the Druid's existence is validated by like 3 spells and his ToB abilities.

I'd say that Nalia's overall package still puts her firmly in a very strong place, even if compared to other NPCs. She has place in a team composition, particularly a heavy magic one. Or even just as a placeholder for Imoen.

Weird how Tales of the Sword Coast oscillates between wacky and boring.

Nalia is worthless. If you want a mage/thief who isn't Imoen, use Jan Jansen. He has actual thief skills.

>>3492195
>Nalia is worthless
A mage can't be made worthless. Even if you try to make them. Intelligence doesn't even do much for mages except for chance to learn spells; low int doesn't make you unable to learn level 9 spells at all. You can make an all minimum stat Transmuter and he will still be a contributor with ease.

>Jan Jansen
While I like Jan for a lot of reasons, he still has some things that can be deemed flawed:
>Illusion, while solid, deprives you of a couple really solid damage spells (Exploding Skull, Horrid Wilting)
>he will advance slower than Nalia
>squishy as fuck with his starting HP (though proper handling makes this point moot)

With a Thief in BG2, you either want one for his late game skills (UAI, traps) or one just for the basic thieving skills. Imoen and Nalia fill the second niche. Mid-game, Thieves aren't that great at contributing anything by themselves.

>>3492230
>A mage can't be made worthless.
Worst of all the Mages is still not anything to overlook. If you need a Priest, all of the available ones are viable as the best choice. If you need a Warrior, all of the available ones are viable as the best choice. If you need a Mage, there is literally never a time when Nalia is the best pick.

>Imoen and Nalia fill the second niche.
No, Imoen fills the second niche. Nalia fills no Thieving niche whatsoever.

>>3479413
BGTutu changes BG1 too much

Who /storymode/ here?

>>3492271

>>3492275
>playing RPG for the battles and action
This isn't Diablo mang

>>3492279
There are some free form RPG systems out there that have no mechanics and are explicitly stories. There are some that are almost purely mechanics with no real story. D&D is both. Ignore one and you're only getting half the experience.

>>3492328
>There are some that are almost purely mechanics with no real story.
Any in specific you're thinking of?

>>3492332
Diablo wasn't a bad example. Pokemon's another good one.

>>3492259
>No, Imoen fills the second niche. Nalia fills no Thieving niche whatsoever.

Well, we have differing experiences and at this point we're just gonna turn into a contest of "She steals" and "She doesn't", so eh.

I still think Nalia is a solid pick. I like her having decent strength for carrying shit, 18 Dex for the bow-shooting (with Tuigan it's a pretty solid early game), still has the 16 Con and some Thief HP. I really like her ring.

>>3492358
But again, Imoen has the same 18 Dex and Rogue levels for Tuigan bow shooting, and the same 16 Con for max Thief/Mage HP. It's just Imoen ALSO has relevant Thief skills.

The argument isn't if Nalia is a bad character, because as you've pointed out, any given Mage is usually just plain better than a non-Mage, it's that Nalia is just a worse version of Imoen in almost every way.

Falling back to the Cernd analogy, why would you take him when Jaheira is available? Because of the clunky Druid XP system, she stays equally leveled with him almost the entire way through, but with the added benefit of all her Fighter levels with the added boon of not being saddled with the Shapeshifter's no armor penalty.

Both Nalia and Cernd fill that same category of "whatever you're looking for a character to do, there's a similar one that can do whatever it is, only better."

>>3492393
Well you can't use Imoen for the first half of the game. Or more than the first half, if you do all the sidequests before spellhold.

>>3492393
>it's that Nalia is just a worse version of Imoen in almost every way.
Except for actually being around during SoA

>Falling back to the Cernd analogy, why would you take him when Jaheira is available?

I wouldn't, but the Cernd analogy is worse. We're looking at 3 levels of Thief - something that can be easily adjusted for with items that are available in bulk throughout Chapter 2 - vs a dysfunctional class only made better by slapping Fighter on it.

I haven't payed Baldur's Gate in a while, but I don't remember the part about 5/6 of your party being transformed into werewolves and auto-dying after sailing back from Balduran Island. I kinda don't want to play this game anymore.

>>3492409
>>3492421
>Except for actually being around during SoA
>Well you can't use Imoen for the first half of the game.
Choosing to delay regaining her isn't really a valid argument. You could have Imoen back before you ever pick up Nalia.

> something that can be easily adjusted for with items that are available in bulk throughout Chapter 2
You keep making that argument. It's like arguing against needing healers because you can just pop a healing potion every time you take damage. Needing to have a constant supply of Potions of Master Thievery for every lock and trap in the game purely to justify a character with a lousy dual-class set up is insane. I mean, Cernd with a shitton of neverending potions might be as good as Jaheira without buffs too.

>>3492358
>>3492393

Both kind of missing the point. You don't need to powergame BG2 to complete it or even to see all the game has to offer. There are people out there who've solo'd the game on top difficulty with Bards. There are people out there who solo'd Firkraag with a sling. That being the case, you have to realise that it's not really important whether Edwin can cast an extra spell a level or whether your min-maxed half orc warrior's mean damage output is two points higher if you dual wield Crom and Belm. Because you will eventually win everything anyway.

In fact you are better off rotating all the 3rd rate characters in and out of your party so you can get all their subquests and personal dramas and chitchat. It's perfectly defensible to keep Nalia in your party right through the game solely for RP reasons or at least until her family drama has played out (and even after that she'll still say amusing stuff to beggars).

Cernd, though, is a terrible character. Not because of his druid spells but because he has very little to say for himself beyond a few new age platitudes. I sense he was one of the last characters written into the game and his story was cut for time reasons.

>>3492441
>Choosing to delay regaining her isn't really a valid argument. You could have Imoen back before you ever pick up Nalia.
This. The only thing you can have Nalia for and not Imoen is the first half of Spellhold. It's like arguing Imoen is better because you can't use Nalia in Irenicus's dungeon.

>>3492443
>Both kind of missing the point.
The "point" originally was that in her role as a Mage/Thief, Nalia was a worse character than Jan/Imoen.

No one's debating the viability of characters or arguing against never using other characters. The argument was who was a better character.

>>3492438
Game bug. Use keeper to remove the werewolf flag.

>>3492441
>Needing to have a constant supply of Potions of Master Thievery for every lock and trap in the game purely to justify a character with a lousy dual-class set up is insane.

Rings of +thief% and a pair of gloves is 100% enough. Potions of Master Thievery last for so long and are so cheap that they are not ever an issue, but I never had the imrpession when playing Nalia that I need to lug them by the thousands.

And yeah, you actually -can- argue against needing healers because of popping health potions - in BG1, you might as well just prefer another archer. (But even then, it's a D&D truism that clerics are much more than just "healers".) If your teamcomp has alternate ways of healing, then you might not need a "healer" at all. I hardly even run healing spells on my clerics in BG2, preferring to give them crowd control, Harm, and the like. It depends on how much you will really need sustain. Or, to turn that around, how much you will need thieving. And the few times I played with Nalia, I just gave her all the +thief enhancing stuff and fairly sporadically had her imbue with potions. And it was just fine and fitting for my needs.

And no, Cernd won't be better than Jaheira with neverending potions. None of them would really help him much. Only Jaheira has access to Fighter-only potions, let's start with that.

>>3492484
>Rings of +thief% and a pair of gloves is 100% enough.
Ring of Danger Sense: +25% Detect Trap
Ring of Lock Picks: +25% Open Locks
Gloves of Pick Pocketing: +20% Pick Pocket (who cares?)

And that amounts to Nalia still having a lower Open Lock score than Imoen, even without the latter having the rings. And some of the later traps require Imoen to have the Ring of Danger Sense to handle them, Nalia's score isn't high enough with the ring to do anything about them.

>And yeah, you actually -can- argue against needing healers because of popping health potions
>I hardly even run healing spells on my clerics in BG2
Well, your arguments against Edwin were all predicated on your playstyle of resting after every single fight, so I guess I could see that.

> And the few times I played with Nalia, I just gave her all the +thief enhancing stuff and fairly sporadically had her imbue with potions. And it was just fine and fitting for my needs.
Which is besides the point. Having no Thief and just tanking the Traps and bashing locks is just as viable. The argument isn't "is it good enough" it was between the characters.

>And no, Cernd won't be better than Jaheira with neverending potions. None of them would really help him much. Only Jaheira has access to Fighter-only potions, let's start with that.
Whoa, we were comparing Nalia with infinite thief potions against Imoen alone. Cernd with infinite Potions of Superior Healing is way better than just Jaheira alone.

>>3492572
>Whoa, we were comparing Nalia with infinite thief potions against Imoen alone
No, you were doing that.

>Well, your arguments against Edwin were all predicated on your playstyle of resting after every single fight, so I guess I could see that.
I hardly run healing spells in BG2 because BG2 has way too many ways to make yourself immune to damage and the AI hardly ever changes aggro from your tanks, and way too many ways to heal up between fights that don't involve wasting cleric slots for me to care. If I were resting after every fight, I suppose that, when making these strawmen, it didn't occur to you that a playstyle that involves using potions to bolster skills when necessary logically kinda clashes with a playstyle that smashes the rest button every single time something happens. Like I mentioned, wands, scrolls, and even shit like Simulacrum abuse is there.

And what is wrong with "a playstyle of resting after every single fight" when the game doesn't penalize you for that whatsoever? It might get tedious to keep killing hobgoblins or some other bullshit a couple times before you rest, but, as it stands, it doesn't make a goddamn difference other than style points.

>Which is besides the point. Having no Thief and just tanking the Traps and bashing locks is just as viable. The argument isn't "is it good enough" it was between the characters.

Then yes, I will take Nalia's bonus strength for carrying my shit and a really useful ring over 3 levels in a class whose worthwhile features are unlocked at level 21.

And we even started this whole argument on whether Edwin is the best mage or not. And, well, he can't do Black Blade of Disaster backstabs, he can't arm himself with a whole lot of utility items available to thieves (Arbane) to broaden his capability. All he does is give you spellslots. Those spellslots can very well be replaced by the rest button. If that's cheesy for you, then use a common Wand of Cloudkill. Amulet of Power > Memento Thay too.

>>3492601
>No, you were doing that.
It was literally your argument. "You don't need Imoen as long as Nalia has an infinite number of Thief potions to make her have stats like Imoen."

>Then yes, I will take Nalia's bonus strength for carrying my shit and a really useful ring over 3 levels in a class whose worthwhile features are unlocked at level 21.
You keep trying to shill her extra carry weight like its meaningful. The difference between Imoen's 9 and Nalia's 14 is what? 60lbs? 70? Were you REALLY using your low-strength Mage as the packmule for the group?

And again, her Ring is "just okay" at best. It's a RoP +2 with a 2nd level prot. spell mixed in. An AC bonus for a strictly back ranks character that should never be in melee? Now, if it came standard on Keldorn or Korgan, that'd be something.

And since we're discussing late-game stuff now, don't forget that Imoen gets Bhaalspawn powers too, further distancing herself as better than college campus hippy Nalia.

>And, well, he can't do Black Blade of Disaster backstabs, he can't arm himself with a whole lot of utility items available to thieves (Arbane) to broaden his capability.
I assume you'd be giving him the same thing you'd be giving her. The Staff of the Magi, not second-rate swords or bows that would've been better suited in virtually any other character's hands.

>Those spellslots can very well be replaced by the rest button.
Again, if you spam rest after every single encounter, I guess I can see why he doesn't seem that great. But right off the bat, having +2 slots every time you learn a new tier of magic is WAY better than any garbage ring Nalia has.

>>3492635
>college campus hippy Nalia
I know no one's talking about personality, but holy fuck this. Is there a more obnoxious character in the game than Nalia? I'd rather listen to Cernd sit there narrating his life in bullshit nature speak

>I now must relieve myself, as the great circle of life, so too must my bowels go, returning the nutrients to the Earth from whence they came to be once again woven into the great balance of-

than have Nalia social justicing my party up. I don't even mean it in a modern political context, but it's like that's ALL there is to her as a character.

Enter a town:
>I don't like cities much. They are built upon the backs of the unfortunate.
Enter a dungeon:
>How are we helping the less fortunate trudging around here?
Start a fight:
>For the needy!
Hell, once I thought I'd outflank her perpetual bitching and went to find a beggar to give money to. The goddamn harpy DID comment, but only to bitch me out for not giving MORE to charity!
>That was a nice thing to do. Although I'm sure you could spare a lot more...what are you saving up for? A golden sword?

This. Bitch.

>>3492635
>"You don't need Imoen as long as Nalia has an infinite number of Thief potions to make her have stats like Imoen."

No comment.

>Were you REALLY using your low-strength Mage as the packmule for the group?

Yeah. It's convenient.

>And again, her Ring is "just okay" at best. It's a RoP +2

Great, an NPC in my 6 man party that already has a good ring that I don't ever need to change!

>with a 2nd level prot. spell mixed in. An AC bonus for a strictly back ranks character that should never be in melee?

Mage is the best class that can do utility, melee and traditional blasting. +2 saving throws is no slouch and 50% Fire Resistance is very convenient for just slapping a Fireshield and going to town in a Tensered form, for instance. Or even just putting a Kundan in the second hand and summoning Phantom Blade to the main hand. Aerie, Imoen, Edwin and Nalia will shit on Korgan or Keldorn, without even autistic amounts of buffs.

>The Staff of the Magi, not second-rate swords or bows that would've been better suited in virtually any other character's hands.

What if I'm playing a magic heavy party and Staff of the Magi is in high demand
What if it's my FIRST GODDAMN VISIT TO THE COPPER CORONET and I'm not planning to visit Shangalar & Co. any time soon
What if I'm making a melee mage
What if I need those niche abilities like Arbane's/Daystar's/Ilbratha's for a fight

>Again, if you spam rest after every single encounter
Name a reason for why that isn't a viable way to play - because anyone playing this game doesn't have to give a shit about your rules. For that matter, Nalia can make me three million bucks in 30 minutes in Chapter 2 if I felt like it, without cheating - and also your reasoning for why you keep insisting I even play that way.

>Imoen's bhaalspawn powers
They're granted at random. Still nice, I guess.

>>3492651
>than have Nalia social justicing my party up. I don't even mean it in a modern political context, but it's like that's ALL there is to her as a character.

If you have her and Imoen in a party in ToB, the two girls actually kinda grow up and reflect on how they're uberpro archmages now and the world can suck their dick. She also kinda mellows out on her whole Caritas thing.

Also, she has a shitload of quests tied to her character.

>>3491856
Regarding Quayle; there's a component in the BG:EE NPC mod that relocates some joinable NPCs to earlier areas e.g Quayle appears at Nashkel Carnival, Alora gets transplanted to Gullykin, It even lets you gimp your party by putting Eldoth on the road north of Beregost

>>3492070
Wand of Paralysation worked wonders for me with Sarevok, admittedly he bounced the first two shots with it, also having Yeslick and an Inquisitor PC made most magic defences on that bunch trivial

>>3492676
>Yeah. It's convenient.
If you think *that's* convenient, you ought to try putting extra equipment on one of the characters with a good strength score! It'll blow your mind!

>Great, an NPC in my 6 man party that already has a good ring that I don't ever need to change!
Well, yeah, no one said the ring is a bad thing to have. It's just not the uber item you keep trying to sell it as.

>+2 saving throws is no slouch and 50% Fire Resistance is very convenient
Given your disdain for spellslots and love of resting to full, 50% Fire Resistance is trash when you can have 100% with a couple of spells. And even with that -2 AC, you going melee as Tenser isn't stopping anything from hitting you so it was a pointless bonus.

>Aerie, Imoen, Edwin and Nalia will shit on Korgan or Keldorn, without even autistic amounts of buffs.
lol, nah, not even close.

>What if I'm playing a magic heavy party and Staff of the Magi is in high demand
Staff of Power
>What if it's my FIRST GODDAMN VISIT TO THE COPPER CORONET and I'm not planning to visit Shangalar & Co. any time soon
Then your other people are similarly under geared and you'd have to be thrice a retard to drop the Tuigan Bow or Arbane's Shortsword on Nalia of all people.
>What if I'm making a melee mage
Then you picked an awful NPC to do it with.
>What if I need those niche abilities like Arbane's/Daystar's/Ilbratha's for a fight
GitGud

>Name a reason for why that isn't a viable way to play
No one said it wasn't viable. You can take two steps and save too. You can put the game on minimum difficulty too. You can open the console and start cheating up anything you like. "Viable" is whatever you want it to be. "Viable" is saving before every attack roll until you nat-20 through every fight. No one's telling you that you can't sleep spam, but I wouldn't exactly be proud of it.

>>3492676
>Mage is the best class that can do utility, melee and traditional blasting. +2 saving throws is no slouch and 50% Fire Resistance is very convenient for just slapping a Fireshield and going to town in a Tensered form, for instance. Or even just putting a Kundan in the second hand and summoning Phantom Blade to the main hand. Aerie, Imoen, Edwin and Nalia will shit on Korgan or Keldorn, without even autistic amounts of buffs.
>Name a reason for why that isn't a viable way to play - because anyone playing this game doesn't have to give a shit about your rules. For that matter, Nalia can make me three million bucks in 30 minutes in Chapter 2 if I felt like it, without cheating - and also your reasoning for why you keep insisting I even play that way.

Your style of playing sounds excruciating to me.

Buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff- move forward and wipe out the group of enemies. Rest, but save first otherwise you might get interrupted with no spell slots left and no buffs still active and ganked. Then buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff, buff- move forward and fight the next group.

Just the thought of it makes me feel too exhausted to want to play.

>>3492719
>If you think *that's* convenient, you ought to try putting extra equipment on one of the characters with a good strength score! It'll blow your mind!

Nah, I just hoard a lot of shit for every occasion and I just like the extra carrying capacity until Bag of Holding is online.

>Given your disdain for spellslots and love of resting to full
Yada yada.

>50% Fire Resistance is trash when you can have 100% with a couple of spells.

M'kay, but it's convenient and I might as well use those spellslots elsewhere and save myself some pre-buffing time.

>lol, nah, not even close.
Yeah, sure. Black Blade of Disaster/Mislead, Harm, all sorts of shapechanges that can turn your mages into 5 attack per round killing machines as early as spell level 4, various spells that make you literally immortal and untouchable, Simulacrum combined with spellcasting, lots of insta-kill spells... need I say more?

>Staff of Power
I need to be a power-hungry mage for that. What if I'm a bard or a cleric? What if I'm the only martial keeping the other 5 mages in line?

>Then you picked an awful NPC to do it with.
Black Blade of Disaster/Mislead is open.

>You can take two steps and save too.
Indeed.
>You can put the game on minimum difficulty too.
I mean, sure.
>You can open the console and start cheating up anything you like.
Knock yourself out.
>"Viable" is whatever you want it to be.

So, how often do I have to bring up that I have a consumable-heavy playstyle and I get by without Edwin's bonus spellslots? If resting is a game mechanic anyone can easily use and it doesn't rely on grinding, merely breaking your sense of immersion, then what's the point of going "it doesn't count"? We're talking about what's good within the rules of the game and reasonable expectations (I doubt people who have to savescum for lucky nat 20s even bother to talk about minmaxing), not about your honor code. I still don't play particularly rest heavy, but there is little reason not to do so.

>>3492676
>Nalia can make me three million bucks in 30 minutes in Chapter 2 if I felt like it, without cheating

Is that the stolen goods fencer exploit? Because I don't know that that counts as "not cheating."

"Oh, you want to sell me that 20k gp sword again? I swear I just bought one from you, but it went missing seconds after you were looking at it. Here, let me buy it again. Oh, you want to sell me that 20k gp sword again?"

>>3492749
Nah, if I want to melee mage - a very spellslot and time-efficient form of exploring dungeons, with no reliance on spells that only last for a single encounter - it's literally just Stoneskin. For tougher encounters, probably PfMW or similar. Then it's just Polymorph->Spider in the first half of the game, or an appropriate Cloak of the Sewers form.

Then I probably have stockpiled a ton of Oils of Burning/Wands of Fire/whatever else is there that is starting to get outscaled by better consumables and I just use them up to clean up trash encounters that I just need to get over it.

Then I probably reach a point where all I have to do to win is have my Cleric march into a room with Blade Barrier in a Rat form. Or just Wand of Cloudkill and standby invisible or behind closed doors. Or just Haste my martials and clean the room out. Or do whatever the fuck I feel like and what my consumables allow, really.

I assure you, I'm having quite a blast playing like this.

>>3492760
Yeah, sure, it's an exploit. It's also within the rules of the game. It was badly designed that way. I can choose to do so. Never have I played a session where I relied on doing so, or did that more than once for shits and giggles.

But the point is, Nalia can do it. It's an option for her. I like options. Even without the exploit, there's plenty of decent pickpocketing to be done in early Athkatla, including a Ring of Regeneration, a fairly decent chance of a high level mage scroll off of lowly Amn guards, and just some money. All for the cost of a single potion that last fairly long, are easily replenished and aren't even often necessary.

>>3492754
>Nah, I just hoard a lot of shit for every occasion and I just like the extra carrying capacity until Bag of Holding is online.
Same. I don't sell potions, ammunition, scrolls or any unique named item no matter how trash. But my low-STR characters aren't the mules.

>M'kay, but it's convenient and I might as well use those spellslots elsewhere and save myself some pre-buffing time.
Your argument for Edwin sucking is because extra spellslots are meaningless, now Nalia's item is good because it saves a spellslot? C'mon.

>Yeah, sure. Black Blade of Disaster/Mislead, Harm, all sorts of shapechanges
Yeah, because you seem to be comparing 9th level spells with what? Starting level characters? If we're talking about them fighting one another, the Mage dies before half those buffs get cast. If we're talking about them fighting monsters, the Mage putters out of gas long before Keldorn / Korgan.

>What if I'm the only martial keeping the other 5 mages in line?
So, your scenario is Charname, Nalia, Edwin, Imoen, Jan, and... I guess Sarevok dual-classed as a Mage, and you've determined that Nalia is your frontline Tank?

You've got a lot more troubles than finding the viability of Arbane's then.

>Black Blade of Disaster/Mislead is open.
I really hope your answer for Nalia as a melee mage is better than "at 22nd char level with 9th level spells she's adequate!"

>So, how often do I have to bring up that I have a consumable-heavy playstyle and I get by without Edwin's bonus spellslots?
You don't. You just shouldn't assume that's some standard everyone plays by. Your constant rest style of gameplay means you probably get a ton of use out of 1/day consumables and metrics like spellslots mean nothing when they're all refreshed for every encounter. But you can't honestly think that's what the majority are talking about, do you?

>>3492774
>Yeah, sure, it's an exploit. It's also within the rules of the game.
These are contradictory sentences. It being an oversight they didn't correct for doesn't make it part of the rules of the game.

>But the point is, Nalia can do it
And Imoen. And Jan. And Yoshimo. And Haer'Dalis. And potentially the protagonist. I don't think exploiting an oversight in the game that 30% of the characters can do, including the character being directly compared to Nalia with is really a mark in her favor.

>>3492790
>Edwin sucking
Never, ever what I argued.

>now Nalia's item is good because it saves a spellslot?

Nalia's Item is good for a shitload of reasons I listed above, which you decided to discard as meaningless because it's still "just" a RoP+2 with a cherry on top. That you get at the game's start.

>If we're talking about them fighting monsters, the Mage putters out of gas long before Keldorn / Korgan.

Yeah, nope. Stoneskin lasts 8 hours and absorbs a shitton of damage and you cast it instantly.

I'll say that martials have greater staying power, but fights are often decided in a span of just a couple of rounds, and then it doesn't matter that much.

>and you've determined that Nalia is your frontline Tank?

No, Aerie is, obviously. Then my job is even easier, with Stoneskin -and- Blade Barrier. Haer'dalis could be one, too, Blade is a great kit. Nalia could be one, sure; just stand there in Rat form and wait for everyone to kill themselves on Fireshield. Or Phantom Blade/Arbane Hasted Nalia easily free actioning her way through a single Web while her enemies watch helplessly. Or I just use summons for my tanking.

>But you can't honestly think that's what the majority are talking about, do you?

Nigger I bet the majority isn't even throwing a pissing contest about this, plays however the fuck they want, and that a lot of people lowered the difficulty level and spammed Chromatic Orb as the only way to get their first ever kill on Thaxll'ssyillia.

It's only the minority that actually plays Ascension/SCS/Tactics or gives a shit about whether their save file looks bad being still in Chapter 2, 411 days in. If you're talking about varied standards of play, don't impose yours either.

You are making assumptions about my playstyle that I constantly keep defying.

And no wand - a favourite item of mine, you see, you'd know if you actually read me - is a 1/day consumable. Neither is Necklace of Missiles. Or those suspiciously often popping up explosive bottles.

Anyone tried that Shadowdancer class they added in EE? Slow start, but I'm currently soloing the game with it...easily. Not even balanced by BG standards.

>>3492801
>And Imoen. And Jan. And Yoshimo. And Haer'Dalis.
And not Edwin.

>It being an oversight they didn't correct for doesn't make it part of the rules of the game.

You just gave me a spiel about me making assumptions about how everyone plays or should play their game - and then deliver this bombshell.

To quote you, "You just shouldn't assume that's some standard everyone plays by." Well, sorry, but I will defend everyone's right to roll 18/18/18 Bhaalspawns, lower difficulty for tough fights, save a lot or just use the rest mechanic that they never updated the rules of in spite of a polished engine.

Oh, and that, while still finding fun, challenging, and interesting ways to play the game, comfortably playing on Insane + whatever mod I feel like + resting whenever the fuck I feel like. Which, to satisfy your epic hardcore BG player cred, is, in my humble opinion, not a whole lot.

>>3492815
It's like Thief/Mage-lite, I guess. It kinda peters out in BG2, like most of the kits. RDD is the biggest offender in that, because bonus HP and some shitty powers don't really hold a candle to the lost spells.

>>3492829
like most of the EE* kits

But yeah, BG1+kits = brokenness. On one hand you have the Kensai being an absolutely miserable wreck of a character, on another you have Berserker soloing Sirines with no effort and an Antidote potion at level 1, or Totemic Druid shitting on everything with his spirit animal.

Get me out of this hellhole! (this should totally be a banner)

>>3492829
>>3492832
Yeah, thieves shine at high level because of set snare, so I can see Shadowdancer getting quite weak. Especially since BG 2 bosses see through stealth.

In BG1 though....6 hour solo run. Way easier than any other class I've tried to solo with. Including FMT.

>>3492828
>To quote you, "You just shouldn't assume that's some standard everyone plays by." Well, sorry, but I will defend everyone's right to roll 18/18/18 Bhaalspawns, lower difficulty for tough fights, save a lot or just use the rest mechanic that they never updated the rules of in spite of a polished engine.
I think your average player doesn't savescum before every fight. They don't rest after every fight. They don't infinite money exploit. But that's just my take.

>>3492919
I should add though that this fight was way easier than usual because Saervok couldn't see through my stealth. I swear he's supposed to be able to. EE fucks up all sorts of stuff, but I'm lazy so I play it anyway.

>>3492812
>Never, ever what I argued.
Comparatively then. Semantics.

>Yeah, nope. Stoneskin lasts 8 hours and absorbs a shitton of damage and you cast it instantly.
And then Keldorn's Carsomyr dispels it with his first hit? Or Korgan's offhand Flail of Ages energy damage keeps you locked down from spellcasting by bypassing the Stoneskin immediately?

>I'll say that martials have greater staying power, but fights are often decided in a span of just a couple of rounds, and then it doesn't matter that much.
Or in your case, five minutes of pre-buffing followed by a couple of rounds.

>Nigger I bet the majority isn't even throwing a pissing contest about this, plays however the fuck they want, and that a lot of people lowered the difficulty level and spammed Chromatic Orb as the only way to get their first ever kill on Thaxll'ssyillia.
Ah, you have a /v/ mentality. This entire conversation makes perfect sense now.

Well, nevermind. Shine on you rest-spamming save scumming star!

>>3492924

>your average player doesn't savescum before every fight

I'm willing to bet that the majority of people who bought and played BG1+2 tapped Q every few minutes, regardless of whether there's a fight coming up. Is that "savescumming"?

>>3492934
>And then Keldorn's Carsomyr dispels it with his first hit? Or Korgan's offhand Flail of Ages energy damage keeps you locked down from spellcasting by bypassing the Stoneskin immediately?

When do you ever pit NPCs in a fight against one another?

But to humour your autism, you conveniently forgot about the existence of Protection from Magic Weapons, which you carefully omitted from the very same sentence you quoted.

The rest of your post is abysmal and shows lack of reading ability.

>>3493196
desu, savescumming is firing web at the edge of the fog a dozen times until you get the notice that the boss/enemy group/whoever is now held, or reloading an encounter constantly until your opening hit(s) are criticals
it's certainly possible to do so, but more likely than not your average player will not do it

>>3493418
Save scumminng is also reloading if your mage gets permakilled by a Lightning trap or if a Beholder successfully uses the disintegrate ray on one of your characters.

>>3493418
>>3493432
Getting into the actual definition, no.
If the game allows you to save and reload to brute force mechanics, its not savescumming. It's lame as fuck but not technically savescumming.
If the game would normally prevent you from doing this but you get around it by backing up save folders, THAT is save scumming.

>>3493435
I have never heard this definition used, ever.

>>3493402
>When do you ever pit NPCs in a fight against one another?

This wasn't you:
>Aerie, Imoen, Edwin and Nalia will shit on Korgan or Keldorn, without even autistic amounts of buffs.

Sorry then, someone was impersonating you, making your exact arguments for you and started the whole "Mages v Fighter" debate. I can understand why you'd want to back out of the argument, since it's pretty untenable from your shitty position having to defend melee Mages against Warrior classes.

>But to humour your autism, you conveniently forgot about the existence of Protection from Magic Weapons, which you carefully omitted from the very same sentence you quoted.

Your mage either casts Stoneskin or Protection from Magic Weapons, he's not doing both in the same first round before the first hit lands. But I'm guessing you realize the energy damage will screw you more, so Protection is the new spell? They select the second weapon set of non-magic weapons, pop a Greater Whirlwind Attack HLA and insta-gib your Mage.

GG EZ

>>3493432
It's about context. Your average player doesn't have an issue playing a game where they load from the last autosave or the like. In this case, the use of savescumming in a derogatory sense is specifically around your "I rest and save before every single encounter so I'm never short of any spellslots or consumables :DDD"

That has to be the most asinine, cancerous way of playing this game that I've ever heard.

>>3462617
Uninstall,get Planescape:Torment and enjoy the story and never look again at inferior things like BG.
The best beginner tip I can give you.

>>3468102
You should do it. Just take the time to completely immerse yourself and take it slow. You won't regret it.

After crushing BG 1 solo, time for something more traditional with BG 2.

I always find myself using the same party in 2 (well, 2 different parties, depending on alignment). Only real changeup is what class I go with for my main. I might pickup Jan anyway because Shadowdancer can't set snare.

>>3492070
You can cheese Sarevok with arrows and just an invisible guy between you and him. He doesn't see who's shooting and he doesn't react at all. You just need to kill Samej at the beginning.

>>3479336
>cheating

>>3496507
The game is based on a turn-based tabletop game, did you not get the memo?

>>3496538
this is part of why I think it's terrible and I don't understand why people disagree with me. It's a turn based game made shitty by real-time mechanics.

The only time the real-time combat makes any sense is when you use scripts to make the game play itself.

>>3496558
Positioning and kiting are fun.

>>3496623
You can do both in turn based.

>>3494067
Y no Edwin

Are monks or paladins more fun?

>>3498872
Both are pretty bleh, but Monk

>>3498829
I've played ToEE, this is barely the case. Monsters beeline for your thieves or casters and there's little you can do about it. "Kiting" consists of running directly backwards towards the exit if applicable.

>>3492332
Icewind dale
The plot was barebones at best

I only came to this chan because /v/ banned my ass.

>>3499928
How much of a shitposter you have to be to be banned from /v/

Opening her cage was a mistake.

>>3479413
Enhanced edition on my 3 years old android tablet works fine. Beamdog did an okay job.

Can even put an override folder with the old override files which removes the exp cap into my baldur's folder - perhaps only relevant in bg2.

It may have troubles starting the screen at Ireicu's Dungeon if you got the override folder in it, but from there on it works without crashes or bugs, just put it out and in again when you startup screen has ended.

>>3470518
THAC0 is unintuitive as fuck.

>>3500974
How come? It's one of the simplest concepts in D&D. If anything the notion of having a completely arbitrary number of HP added to your max every XP level (1d8 or so) is way weirder to grasp. Why would a level 15 warrior gain less HP than a level 4 cleric?

BG2 should have had more map locations.

Like if you agree.

>>3500585
Don't you talk about my waifu like that.

You're a mistake.

>>3501159
>his waifu is a Harper

>>3501143
>It's one of the simplest concepts in D&D.
Yeah it's so simple and intuitive everyone understands it instantly without having to look it up! Stop being a facetious retard.

Any tips for someone starting with 6 characters that isn't "don't use 6 created characters"?

>>3501143
>It's one of the simplest concepts in D&D
It's the simplest concept in any P&P RPG. Except in reverse.

So what happened to Candlekeep after the events on BG1?
Also what was the Iron Throne leaders looking for there?

This is probably the most consistently broken game I enjoy playing.

>>3501179
Slings

>>3498836
I don't like mixing alignments. Microing reputation is annoying.

In other news, this guy is a cunt. Probably the hardest boss in the game. However, I rested after beating him in order to memorize more restorations....and it automatically removed my level drain. Is this a retarded mechanics change added in a recent EE patch? If this is the sort of direction the game is moving, its time to dig out my original CDs. More testing is in order.

>>3502201
Isn't it common knowledge that EE is utter trash and to be avoided at all costs?

>>3502201
>However, I rested after beating him in order to memorize more restorations....and it automatically removed my level drain.
Do you have a cleric with Restoration or whatever invocation it is that does that?

>>3502316
Yeah, it did occur to me later that it is casting that as a "heal on rest" now. I didn't think of that until it was too late to test. I'll hack in a vampire later to confirm.

>>3462617
go to the store and buy some lube, because you are about to get fucked hard

>>3462617
Boo tells you that
You should try Betrayal at Krondor.
There's a thread on it here on /vr/

>>3465217
I keep trying to play it but stopping early on. I just don't enjoy it as much as much as Icewind Dale (the inventory management being the biggest offender).

started up again last weekend though and got as far as chapter 5, so maybe this time...?

(I had previously only got past the iron mine)

>>3502237
good point.

GUIZE, always remember to banish EEs like the fucking black death!

>>3502741
What are the major differences in gameplay between BG and IWD?

>>3502796
Nothing really. IWD is more focused on combat however.

I'm so sick of Jaheira's shit I'm replacing her with Viconia.

>>3502796
IWD is more linear and features more combat, with fewer side quests.
You also build your entire party from the beginning in IWD, there are no joinable NPCs, unlike BG.

>>3502648
This guy is the absolute worst companion character in any RPG ever made

Prove me wrong

>>3503127
Jaheira exists.

>>3502237
>EE is utter trash and to be avoided
Why?

Seriously wondering cus I got EE but haven't played it yet.

>>3503127
>This guy is the absolute worst companion character in any RPG ever made
Go play a YGO tag force game.

Against you: "I activate polymerization and summon Blue Eyes Ultimate Dragon, and activate this clusterfuck of cards to summon the three Blue Eyes I previously fused and use ultimate offering to summon Catapult Turtle and I FUCK YOUR LIFEPOINTS TO SHIT! End turn" [turn 2]

Alongside you: "TIMMEH!" *sacs your best card to summon pic related*

>>3503154
They fucked up some of the mechanics and the interface is ass.
If you want a better experience, use the tutu mod

>>3503170
>some of the mechanics
like what?

>>3502796
IWD has no real exploration, it's just dungeon crawling and a fuck ton of combat encounters, most of which are against monstrous humanoids and undead

whereas the majority of enemies in BG are humans, with plenty of random humanoid/animal encounters. It's also more exploration based, with big open maps that you can discover by going off the edge of the current one. It's also non-linear, for the most part. You choose where to go next, but the story path is set.

>>3503180
Like explained up there about level drain and also BG1 doesn't mix too well with BG2 system.
Also I forgot to tell you that the new companions are utter trash and Siege of Drangonspear was hamfisted SJW beliefs.

>>3503127
He's not Anomen.

>>3503191
>Siege of Drangonspear
You don't have to install it with EE tho

>>3503191
>hamfisted SJW beliefs
Isn't it just one guard that says "btw im trans" or is there more

>>3501179
dont optimize them

I ran through with an "optimized" party in jan 2015, and I completely steamrolled the game

gnome enchanter - max dex/int/cha, darts
half-orc beserker - max str/dex/con, scimitars/shields
half-elf skald - crossbows/halberds
halfling thief - slings/daggers/shortswords
elf archer - longbows/longswords
dwarf fighter/cleric - warhammers/shields/slings

No challenge whatsoever

>>3503212
The minor SJW references were already in the original game btw.

>>3503220
So why did everyone lose their shit about it, was it just people being like pic related over nothing?

>>3503227
I misspoke: there were already minor SJW elements in the original game, but the new edition added and expanded upon them. Not like it was completely SJW-free before anyway.

>>3503227
No, people lost their shit about the hilariously awful writing.
>Here's my long-winded introduction about all of my pronouns and genders
>1: Interesting
>2: Thank you for your tale
>3: I totally agree
>4: [exit]
You literally have no choice but to compliment their mental deficiencies.

>>3503290
Pretty much. It disregarded already established lore in the process.

The character's basically an informative post on any other site crammed into a discussion. They're a shitty character for a BG game, or really any game, no matter how you spin it.

>>3503290
Isn't it just one character and that is if you ask them to go in detail?

>>3503227
A transphobic token that was added to the game purely to say "I'm progressive! So brave!" from a writer who is known for seeing LGBT people as nothing but background characters of zero importance. She was so poorly coded that murdering her in full view of everyone wouldn't damage your reputation or send the whole street after you. Nor could you hand her the girdle of gender which would be ideal for someone like her.

I'm FtM myself and I was so disgusted by the shoehorning I refunded the game and swore to never touch anything Amber Scott got her hands on again. This is on top of all kinds of shoehorning which has made me feel targeted in tabletop games, the one thing I use to actually avoid the constant nagging in my head that I've dropped my dick.

>>3503364
Oh I see, yeah poor coding and lack of critical item delivery does make it sound stupid.

>>3503364
>I'm FtM myself

>>3503392
It's relevant, hush.

>>3503347
Doesn't make up for the rest of the expansion's writing though. It doesn't like, rape the series or anything in the end or anything, but it's still unfortunate. I liked some of the ideas Beamdog had though.

>>3503364
To be fair, to be completely fair (maybe more than Amber Scott deserves, admittedly), that is something that has precedence in Faerun. You had things like the magic belt that switches your sex (actually IIRC there are several of those), you have had a few characters turned into the opposite sex - off the top of my head I think Edwin in the first game got turned into a girl or something IIRC(?), and in the first novel of the Elminster series, Elminster was once turned into a woman (and given the name Elmira or some shit icr) by the goddess of magic (who's super hot and who Elminster is fuckbuddies with because he is basically Greenwood's self-insert), both to strengthen his understand of magic and so that he would know first-hand what it's like to be a woman.

>>3503573
Forgotten realms in literature is garbage.
The only thing that saves it is that the world is great and thats more on the side that it's D&D.

>>3503848
Forgotten Realms in general is honestly fairly boring universe. It's the only one without a distinct gimmick like Ravenloft, Dark Sun and Dragonlance.

>tfw no War of the Lance-themed CRPG done with late-90s/early 00s engine

>>3503907
Forgotten Realms is like if Greyhawk was made by a pervy hippie and then got contracted out by Wizards of the Coast to every idiot who wants to write some bullshit.

>>3503907
Isn't the gimmick the mild steampunk?

>>3503961
That's Eberron

>>3503961
That's too minor for a gimmick. Many (most?) FR novels don't have any of this stuff. It's mostly just like the normal world only a bit more sombre.
Also I think that 2nd ed AD&D setting for FR has dinosaurs.

>>3503573
You're right but you're giving Beamdog in general way too much credit. What would've fixed about the whole thing is if the character took some time to dip into that lore, but no one in the entire dev house even mentions that during the work process and it's pretty hard to miss that fuckup.

You could make a quest out of it if the character was that important to them (they later said it was a one-off they just wrote because reasons). "Get me a girdle" or "Find me a Cleric to do this thing because [insert special reason here]." Hell, the quest could be for a Scroll of Alter Self or something.

>>3503907
>tfw no Spelljammer game with an adventure focus.

Bump for tall races are shit

>>3505626
Says the Gnome.

>>3505626
I can't think of a single short race that isn't shit. Dwarves are obnoxious xenophobic assholes, halflings are thieves, gnomes are horrible annoying little faggots whose god committed genocide as a joke YET IS STILL CONSIDERED A GOOD-ALIGNED DEITY. Plus you have shit like kender or those retard dwarves in Dragonlance.

Death to shortfags.

Kill all shortfags.

>>3501143

I'm sorry, it's fucking retarded.

What is the advantage over say, DnD 5e's system where you simply roll against the enemy's AC number, using a D20 + your to-hit modifier?

>>3505654
>millenialfags are too lazy to make a simple math substraction

>>3505658
Way to completely miss the point, baitposter.

>>3502796
as the poster above you, I don't think I can offer anything that hasn't been said by >>3502830
>>3502971 and >>3503187, but I will clarify why I like it more.

It's true that Icewind Dale is the more linear of the two, though I prefer to think of it as "a guided experience". It's not that there isn't a sufficient amount of questing, but it's never too far off the beaten path. Once you're done with one section, you can move forward or go back to a previous section, the world map really only moves you from setpiece to setpiece (so no wondering if you'll run into something new if you go west versus south, etc).

There are no recruitable NPC's, you just make your party from the getgo (and you can make more later up to the full 6 if you started with less). This means you don't have to micromanage party composition so tightly by purely what's available, you can make what you choose (and not be limited by things like alignment/personality conflicts). From what I've seen, despite having personalities, the npc's in baldur's gate don't have much to say once you've recruited them or finished a quest they where involved in, so that's not much of an issue.

Besides improvements to the initial engine like retaining the game's paused status when you look in your inventory, those are the key differences. It has world to explore but it's not "open world", and the party is less mouthy/easier to optimize.

I heard Watcher keep had level scaling, does anyone know the specifics? I want to go there early to grab firetooth

>>3503212
There's more. First, there was the "ethics in gaming" reference that they used Minsc as the mouthpiece for. Then, several of the characters had their personalities retooled. See pic related.

>>3506905
Pause on inventory is a balance change. It isn't strictly "better". The original system makes the game a bit harder.

>>3503135
Faggot
Neither of those companions are bad. Nalia is insufferable and Cernd is shit and useless.

>>3507521
Cernd has legit good divine magic. But then again you're a Jaheira fanboy so...

>>3506905
>rolling a 90+ for six characters
Just kill me now.

I've never played a Baldur's Gate game, where do I start? There's so many fucking enhanced gold platinum editions and expansions.

>>3507674
Doesn't really matter. The EE looks nicer and plays a bit simpler, but some of the additions are a bit controversial. It's quite easy to completely ignore them and play purely with the vanilla content. The only people who care about it so much are spergs on /vr/ and their ilk. The only real issue with the EE is that you can't mod it as easily as the vanilla version, but at your first playthroughs you probably shouldn't concern yourself with that anyway.

Regardless, you might want to start with the second installment. It's easier to get into and the first one can be quite difficult for new players, as there is a large chance of instadeath at the early levels, plus the game plays less linear than the sequel. Once you finish or advance far enough in BG2 you can come back to BG1 and treat it as a prequel, that's what a lot of people do.

>>3462617

THAC0 is your characters "attack accuracy" or "attack bonus". And it's subtraction, generally, rather than addition like you see in modern PnP RPGs. Lower AC is better, even into the negatives.

The THAC0 calculation is fairly straightforward:

THAC0 of 15, enemy is AC 5. The attack roll is a d20.

15-(5) = 10. You need to roll a 10 or better to hit your opponent.

Let's say an enemy has a -4 AC:

15-(-4) = 19. You'd need a 19 or better to hit them.

Higher Strength characters have a higher bonus to their THAC0 (thus lowering it). High Dex characters have a higher bonus to their AC (also lowering it).

Saving throws are also a case where lower numbers are better, because you're rolling a d20, and the number for your saving throw is the number you're trying to equal or beat.

>>3462758
>>3500974
>>3501175
>>3505654

>subtraction is less intuitive than addition

That's all you're saying. The only reason I don't like THAC0 is because it's not as simple to explain to new people in PnP games. Aside from that, the math is exactly the same.

>>3507057
>Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy
And Khalid was a bumbling incompetent husband and that was played for comedy as well. How is that at all sexist?

>>3507927
>That's all you're saying. The only reason I don't like THAC0 is because it's not as simple to explain to new people in PnP games. Aside from that, the math is exactly the same.
Nobody is saying the math is different, retard. The only gripe people have with thac0 is that it's unintuitive, meaning you have to sit people down and explain it to them when you want to play. Attack rolls in 3+ are simple and intuitive and no additional time needs to be spent on explaining them.

>>3508090
>thac0
>unintuitive
Maybe for brain-dead idiots. What part of TO HIT ARMOR CLASS ZERO do people find unintuitive? Jesus fuck, the standards of human intelligence sure have dropped in the last few decades, haven't they?

>>3508090

>I am terrible at math

Here's your (you).

>>3508090

>I am both terrible at math and reading comprehension

Here's your (you).

>>3508103
>>3508124
I love second edition as much as the next guy, but he's absolutely right. Thaco is unintuitive. You have negatives representing positives. Who wasn't thrown the first time they discovered that you wanted a LOWER armor class?

Now, that's not saying it's difficult to understand or particularly hard math to work through. Somehow or another you two see to be unable to differentiate "unintuitive" with "complicated."

>>3508103
>>3508129
Thac0 is good is my favorite /vr/ meme.

>>3508103
The fact that 3e standardizes it with "You must do THIS well to succeed". THAC0 is "You must do this well. Oh by the way this armor fucks your number."

>>3508134

It's a subtraction problem. It should be as intuitive as addition is.

THAC0 is just the number that's been solved for you, since it doesn't take a genius to know that X-0 = X.

>>3508142

3e also lacks bounded accuracy, has a clusterfuck of a skill system, the most prominent game to use 3e was Neverwinter Nights, AKA the let's give the most powerful class in the game an XP boost, and punish Fighters by giving them an XP penalty.

Also, fuck BioWare for good measure.

>>3508164
4e and 5e did the same exact thing. Also, NWN was a solo game, meaning fighters were beastly.

>>3508181
Fighters were pretty shit in NWN desu senpai.

>>3508181

>5e lacks bounded accuracy
>3e Fighters beastly

Confirmed for not knowing shit about D&D, and not playing NWN either.

>>3508189
I actually did, and I tore shit up quite consistently as a fighter with a fucking dual-weapon (AKA dumb as fuck).

Also, I do know my shit. You think I ban core spells and classes, and allow Tome of Battle and Psionics for shits and giggles?

>>3508220

All that proves is NWN is easy.

>still playing 3e

Opinions discarded.

>>3508238
Blame my group, I'd much rather be running DITV or Savage Worlds. Hell, I'd rather run a MLP game than 3e but noooooooo.

>>3508164
Again, it's not that addition is any more or less intuitive than subtraction, it's that you're using a negative to represent a positive.

It's like starting with 10HP and as you level, you acquire negative HP and enemy attacks apply positive HP, and should you get to 20HP, you die. The math on that isn't hard, but it's pointlessly unintuitive, just like thaco.

>>3508238
>continued playing new editions after 3e

You're the buyanything cancer that let WotC get away with bastardizing D&D. How're you liking your TT MMO you generation Z degenerate?

>>3508256
>trying to shitpost against third edition to fit in with the only autist in the world who liked fourth edition

You goofed.

>>3508238
>playing anything after 3E

Opinions discarded

>>3508312
>4e
>mmo
I guess 3e with all its massive loot tables, mountains of skills, fucktons of trivial items, hundreds of classes, thousands of feats, heaps of useless/trap options, godmodding built into the system, colossal balance problems, and mechanics that actively punish roleplay/flavor make it "hardcore" eh?

No, 3e is the MMO. 4e is Final Fantasy Tactics.

>>3508534
And templates. MMOs loooooove their templates

>>3508534
>4e is Final Fantasy Tactics.
I didn't think it was possible for someone to actually convince me I want to play 4e

>>3508557
Bit of an exaggeration, I'd liken it more to Shining Force on steroids

>>3508557
No, it's really more like D&D. I remember watching my first session of fourth edition. They actually split people into MMO categories. Tanks, Heals and "Strikers" (DPS), etc. While third edition tried to give you as many tools to make the world more realistic, from NPC classes to little items purely for RP aesthetic, fourth edition cut it all out. You have BOSS monsters and little minions with shared health pools just like a video game. Hell, originally, you were supposed to have to play fourth edition with an online component simultaneously.

Third edition was the roleplay aspect of second edition fully realized. Fourth edition was the commercialized MMO that the guys who purchased the D&D license thought would sell the most.

Ultimately, fourth edition was a massive failure for all the above listed reasons and true D&D fans were disgusted and offended by it. Hell, the suits at WotC refused input from all the previous edition writers. Even the big names of individual settings were disregarded, like Greenwood and the Forgotten Realms. They just got put on notice "this is how it's going to be, sorry it fucks your lore, but adapt."

Notice how fifth edition lore is a massive backpedal on everything that happened in fourth edition? Everyone is desperately trying to forget that abomination ever even happened. The advertising for fifth edition was "it's not like fourth! honest! if you liked third edition, you'll like this! PLEASE COME BACK!"

I honestly don't know how this shill: >>3508534
can argue in favor of fourth edition. That shitty edition was so awful that it got BTFO'd by some fanfic Pathfinder bullshit. How awful does an edition have to be that diehard D&D fans will quit playing D&D for an obvious knockoff?

>>3508534
lol this guy

the developers said they were trying to streamline 4e to be more like an mmo. that's why fighters got magic spells and powers and shit. they thought players wanted more game balance and a more efficient mmo style.

it turned out most dnd players wanted to play a fantasy game with dnd, and 4e felt more like playing a fantasy *video* game.

i mean, just a quick google search tells you that 4e being an mmo is not uncommon knowledge.

>>3508659
I'm not new to the tabletop scene, that's why I was surprised that >>3508534 was comparing it to a game I actually liked. I'm sure I would've liked 4e just fine, but by the time it came out I was already well invested in the 3e and d20 supplements of the era before.

People tend not to like change. All through my 3e playing I had people proclaiming all the things AD&D 2e did better. I imagine if I went far back enough I'd find AD&D purists who called out the 2e heathens, or people proclaiming using the "advanced" rulesets at all was blasphemy. Better to use your energy to tell us why you like the versions you like rather than point out what the ones you don't are doing bad and/or wrong.

>>3508659
Post that on /tg/ and watch how hard you get laughed at.

>Third edition was the roleplay aspect of second edition fully realized.
I roll diplomacy. The BBEG is now my friend, that's the rules. If you deny me, it's like denying an attack. This is how it works by RAW. Keep defending your MMORPG.

>>3508681
You are getting really fucking desperate to defend your shitty casualized 3rd edition. They dumbed it down so that roleplayers got shafted and rollplayers got rewarded. It panders to autism and obsessing over loopholes.

>>3508681
>"the kids, they like the MMORPGS right? Let's give them one"

I guess we can thank Beamdog for SJW faggotry fucking up every single BG discussion from now until forever. But there is literally no excuse for edition wars here.

In any event, hacked in a vampire, let it level drain me, then ctrl-Y killed all my clerics. Resting did remove level drain. So restoration would seem to be tied to "rest until healed". Which is fine.

>>3508692
It's a different matzah ball entirely with fourth edition, friend. AD&D, 2e, 3e, 3.5e, Pathfinder and even 5e are all essentially the same thing. It's D&D with just some rebranding and differing mechanics here and there. It's like the difference between playing Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics. Some people prefer one or another, and the mechanics are a bit different, but it's essentially the same thing.

Fourth edition doesn't play like D&D. It's not Tactics Ogre or FF Tactics, it's World of Warcraft. A Fighter in any other edition could be pretty versatile. A Fighter in fourth edition has his role predesignated as "Defender" (IE: Tank). A Fighter in a previous edition was simply a guy who used weapons, there was no magic to it. Fourth edition Fighters have powers and abilities from healing "spells" to status effects, telekinesis, all sorts of bullshit like that to ensure he's mechanically "balanced" against a Wizard.

Speaking of Wizards, I hope you hated the idea of collecting spells and volumes of spellbooks, because that shit was cut out. You have X number of abilities. You learn a new power, and the old one vanishes out of your spellbook, of which you can only have one.

No edition in the history of D&D was as hated as fourth edition was.

>>3508695
It's a common sentiment on /tg/. Everyone knows 4th edition was shit. It's why it got dropped so hard by Wizards and why every setting retconned all of that shit right out of their timelines. Hell, Pathfinder outsold fourth edition. When a knockoff brand is more popular, you know you fucked up.

>diplomacy strawman
People forget that the book specifically states you have to be in negotiations in the first place. You don't just to get to shout "don't eat me!" at the dragon and roll a diplomacy check. Your failure to read and grasp the rules is not a failing of the rules themselves.

>>3508703
Regardless of your opinion of 3e being casualized, fourth edition was a 100 times moreso.

>>3508738
>>diplomacy strawman
>People forget that the book specifically states you have to be in negotiations in the first place. You don't just to get to shout "don't eat me!" at the dragon and roll a diplomacy check. Your failure to read and grasp the rules is not a failing of the rules themselves.

This. The book even says mechanically you have to take ten consecutive full-round actions (page 71). What it should've been like is:

Player: I roll diplomacy. The BBEG is now my friend, that's the rules. If you deny me, it's like denying an attack. This is how it works by RAW.
DM: As the famous bard begins to exort all the reasons that the villain should spare their lives, the demon springs into action! Roll Initiative, I'll be generous and count your surprise round action as a full round of Diplomacy. Survive 9 more rounds with no other actions and then roll your check.

>>3508727
That's an awful typo. Resting did NOT remove it.

tl;dr there is no actual problem.

>>3508695
>Post that on /tg/ and watch how hard you get laughed at.
being laughed at by retards isn't exactly shameful

>>3508139
meme is my memest meme memememe memememe

>>3508738
>A Fighter in any other edition could be pretty versatile.
A fighter in 3e can't even fight properly.

>>3508746
I like how you ignore the part where it lets you rush the check. 3e is broken, faggot. It's shit and dumbed down for rollplayers.

>>3507057
Does what Amber Scott says really matter in a D&D game though? That's like playing the game as Gygax intended or some shit.

She was just making a bad attempt at covering her ass over shitposting and the odd journo, Beamdog really didn't give a shit about this stuff.

OMG U MUST PLAY THE EE VERSON IT IS SO PROGRESSIVE!

>>3508820
>I have not read the thread and must shitpost in all caps anyway.

>>3508820
I've never ever even had a full conversation with Hexxat let alone did her quest, so I probably wouldn't even know this feature existed if it wasn't for faggots like you blowing it out of every proportion.

>>3508820
>stupid overpowered

She's single class thief.

>>3508848
+who cannot dual.

>>3508848
Single class thieves are rare in BG1, and I don't think there's even one in BG2.

>>3508872
Yoshi is a bounty hunter.

>>3508872
Because they are weak. And there is one in BG 2; Yoshimo.

That image is just annoying baiting. Her high dexterity gives her less bonus points than Jan's special gear. Her high CON does nothing at all. So that just leaves her with high strength so she can backstab harder than usual. Since she doesn't even have a kit, that basically takes the place of that.

Yes, she's a big lipped negress, but I don't know who would think the potato on the left is a qt.

>>3508884
Just gotta chime in to mention that this still serves to make her not terribly interesting.

Yoshimo has a really fun, engaging kit to play with, and, had it not been for a few issues (though I guess you can play Tortured Souls or something), you could make him a Fighter dualclass and he'd be competent. Hexxat has some shoddy melee powers that get outshone by a deliberately crippled spellcaster with a level 4 polymorph spell.

And she just talks a lot. Like all EE NPCs. It's kinda grating in BG1 where they're the only ones that don't shut the fuck up, and even in BG2 their writing stands out. Some argue, for BG1, that it's good that your characters are no longer just boring blank slates with generic personalities, like Kivan being a brooding elf archer with a revenge plot, but they somehow made it up for being nicely placed in the plot or just having cool, but subtle powers that made them stand out -- something better than one of the two half-orcs in BG1 (Mulahey counts, I suppose) with a personal greatsword +1 that is better than 80% of the loot, a special class, his own bisexual romance and also a perfect fit for evil teams that traditionally have a shortage of members and have to compensate.

I have a hard time recalling mods that don't feature a character talking and talking and talking. Kelsey was one, but he's a snorefest otherwise; Tashia has her riddles, Chloe keeps fucking your sister and fruitlessly explaining homosexuality to Minsc, and then there's Saerileth.

Assuming no level cap, running BGT, what level should I dual Imoen?

>>3508738
>Hey maybe you should tell me the high points of your favorite system rather than focusing on why the other one is bad. I've literally heard all these beats befo-
>"YES BUT DID YOU KNOW ITS INFERIOR BECAUSE X Y AND Z?"

Anyway, does anyone know what the changes to icewind dale enhanced where?

>mfw plebs believe that BG2 is superior to BG1
BG1 is literally the best "vanilla" heroic fantasy CRPG ever, the open world and small scale of it makes it 10x better than BG2 where it's just a power fantasy and tons of scripted events to replace charm

>>3508803
Ah yes, at a -10 penalty. So, to turn a hostile friendly would only require a DC 60 check. Well, hell, most people have a 50 Diplomacy!

And it's certainly not like you can make opposed checks or anything, right? Or that simply not listening 100% negates it.

Kids like you need to stay out of mechanic arguments, you're out of your depth.

>>3509160
If you're ambitious enough, you can attempt to do so on level 21, where she'd get UAI, but that would require some sort of a Helegornesque Unholy Trinity setup with only you and Imoen (maybe Sarevok much much later), and a little patience.

Given that Thieves require very little XP to gain levels and Mages can just read scrolls, you can probably stretch Immy out a bit, up to level 13 even, for a x5 backstab (maximizing Black Blade of Disaster/Mislead cheese), Thief HP and THAC0 progression, and some skills, in a classic party. Preferrably do some slight micromanaging by firing your party for a while while Imoen is studying, or have her collect all the big quest rewards after you dual'd.

Level 10 is also decent because that's when you stop gaining max HP and get post-level 10 dividends, while retaining x4 backstab.

>>3509167
Kek knows what's up.

BG1 > BG2
Diablo 1 > Diablo 2

>game I played first > game I played second

>>3509167
>>3509179
>>3509201
samefag

>>3509224
fagfag

>>3509159
>And she just talks a lot
Yet she barely say anything, iirc most of her dialogue are one liners about how hot/dangerous/mysterious she is.

>>3509167
>>3509179
BG2 is the same game as BG1 just with everything being a little better.

Classes have kits, making them a little better. Your motivation goes from avenging your foster father to regaining your soul. Even the big dungeon is just a little better, Watcher's Keep > Durlag's Tower.

Is IWD:EE as shitty as BG:EE?

>>3509415
about the same imo, but they still haven't fixed weapon switching in iwdee

>>3509457
>they still haven't fixed weapon switching in iwdee
What's wrong with it?

>>3508872
>Single class thieves are rare in BG1
They're the most common single class companion in BG1. There's Imoen, Alora, Skie and Safana. If you include multiclassers it jumps up to Montaron, Coran and Tiax.

>>3509167
I literally change my mind about it every month. Nowadays I really enjoy the BG2 quests and NPCs, it' very imaginative and rich.

>>3509326
While I love BG2 there really is nothing like Durlag's Tower. It's fucking insane and goofy.

>>3509968
>there really is nothing like Durlag's Tower
And thank fuck for that.

>>3510118
>narrow corridors in a game with shit pathfinding
>deadly trap you can detect once per round

I'm toying with a new character idea for BG2.

An evil aligned Human Swashbuckler (10 levels) that dual classes into Cleric. The Thief levels should more than cover all Traps and Locks for an evil playthrough, and grant a permanent -3 AC and +2 Attack/Damage. The character would be wearing heavy armor and since the Swashbuckler can't backstab and there's not enough Thief points for stealth anyhow, there's no real net loss there.

I'm open and welcoming to feedback.

>>3510165
>Have Kaigan in party who has a shitton of Con, hp and innate regenration
>Just activate the traps
>Don't give a shit since his hp regens every time anyway.

>>3510218
Why not dualling into mage? Makes more sense to me. That way you could either join in on the slaughter at lighter action or stay out of the fray and cast spells at harder battles. Not to mention dual wielding+haste is cool as fuck.

>>3510242
Some traps are either instakill or area effect though.

Dorn in 1 is death incarnate.

>>3510218
>swashbuckler that can't use a sword
You disgust me

>>3510218
Here's the problem with that. Cleric is also a 1 attack class. So you're boosting the AC and THAC0/Damage of a class that simply won't be laying down a beatdown. A normal cleric/thief, while not a very popular choice, can at least buff up for a crazy backstab.

>>3509415
It's way better than BGEE either way, because they focused on only fixing shit up or restoring it. So it has no added content that stands hilariously out.

The engine upgrade may or may not be better depending on how you look at it, but you get kits now.

>>3510294
Because the evil party already has both a Mage and a Cleric, so I'm in desperate need of neither. Ultimately though, the -3 AC assists a Cleric in Full Plate wielding a shield a damn sight more than an unarmored Mage relying on Stoneskin.

>>3510336
A normal Cleric / Thief would only be able to backstab with Quarterstaves and Clubs. Further, he'd have to be wearing light armor. And to get to the x5 backstab would require three more levels up to 13, meaning you wouldn't likely see your Thief levels returned until the very end of Shadows of Amn / beginning of Throne of Bhaal.

And the draw is less about the +2 attack and damage, it's more about the fact that it negates the need for a Thief entirely and contributes to the character being an excellent frontline tank. Without a single magical item or spell cast, he'd have an AC of -8.

>>3510846
>negates the need for a thief entirely.

This is really the only true benefit of your build. And, well, that's pretty minor. Imoen and Jan are such good characters. If you really don't want to use them, then sure, that's fine.

I'm just saying, the only real synergy between cleric and thief is self buffing for a big backstab and then using sanctuary to run away. It isn't amazing, which is why it isn't a popular choice. But you don't even get that minor synergy.

It'll be playable. Because single class cleric is fine and swashbuckler's bonuses are fine.

>read these threads and think about attempting to beat BG/IWD for the umpteenth time
>remember shitty 2.0 rules

>>3510879
What's wrong with 2.0 rules?

The only thing that sticks out for me is the summoning changes.

I used summons extensively in the original to cheese most of the harder fights. Upon learning of the 5 mob limit in EE, I just dropped summons and decided to "play legit"...


Ended up still cheesing most of the fights- like with the demon knight where I sat up on a ledge out of his sight and had Edwin spam cloudkill/sleep until the aoe killed him.

>>3510865
I think you're severely overestimating the use of backstab and underestimating the losses you'd be trading for it.

Forcing your Cleric into light armor and only using clubs, along with forestalling any Thief abilities until over 2,000,000xp just so you can get a single backstab per fight?

No, the Swashbuckler is one of those classes that only enhances the Cleric class without actually detracting from it. Its lack of backstab means there's no need to waste points in Hide or Move Silently, allowing you to easily cap Pick Pocket, Open Lock and Detect Traps by level 10. Further, the -3 AC and +2 attack / damage work perfectly with the fact that Clerics are already respectable frontliners with their fullplate and shields.

Most people that dual from Thief pull the Imoen card, where they do just the barest amount necessary to cover the traps and locks in the game and otherwise write the levels off as wasted. And there's good cause for that too. The Assassin is a one-trick pony that is going to necessitate you taking two more Thief skills to high numbers, and doesn't come into its own until level 21 - far too late to dual-class. The Bounty Hunter is much the same, their special Traps are at 11, 16 and 21 with the latter two being so late that dual-classing loses viability. And because he only gets 20% of your Thieving abilities, and his whole point is Set Traps, adding a new Thief skill necessary to justify him, you're going to have to stick with the class far longer than otherwise would be necessary to get the skills that you were dipping into the class for at all. And finally, the generic Thief, who's only advantage over the Swashbuckler is Sneak Attack. And the above two paragraphs detail why it's a gimped trade-off.

Swasbucklers get full Thief progression for their skills, don't have to hit high level break points for Sneak Attacks that won't come, and none of their abilities require you to sacrifice any of the Cleric's toolkit that make it great.

>>3510294
>Why not dualling into mage?

Everyone and their cousin duals into Mage. I find out of the box thinking like Swashbuckler 10 / Cleric X or Berserker 13 / Druid X or hell, even Stalker 12 / Cleric X.

Rare combinations that you don't see much. I might just vomit if I have to see another Kensai / Mage.

>>3510979
Beserker Druid sounds neat actually

>>3510951
I'm a huge fan of using sneak attacks to mostly solo encounters by abusing LOS and kiting, so yes, I'm very biased towards the skill.

>>3508727
but is the cleric fine?

>>3510986
I've done playthroughs like that. It basically comes down to your dagger and the boots of speed.

Isn't reputation basically just a way to deal with code/machine limitations? It's easier for the game to process s number between -20 and 20 then extended list if integers. So you get "good/bad/ok guy" instead of "guy who poisoned the druid grove and helped out to slaughter some innocents but did kill that one badguy and found a murderer in the city etc".

>>3512031
It's nothing to do with limitations, it's just that it would've been a royal pain in the ass to set the game up to track a ton of things and have consequences attached to each of them.

If it did it the way you wanted, your post would probably read "I know you slew a dragon, ended a slave trade, saved the druid grove, purged a beholder cult, and rid us of vampires, but you scorched a guy with fireball on the other side of Faerun two months ago so HAVE AT THEE SCOUNDREL!"

>>3512039
How about making it context specific? Kinda like it is in Fallout. Helm-affiliated characters would care about the cult, Shadow Thieves about vampires, etc.The idea of general reputation or karma is plain lazy.

>>3510846
...why not just play a swashbuckler?

You already have the best fighter, cleric, and mage.

>>3510951
None of the Cleric-only weapons increase your attacks per round, and the only way a Swashie can proceed past his natural, paltry 1 APR, is with Belm/Kundane, with Scarlet Ninja-To changed for the latter, later in the game.

>>3510951
Also the best backstab weapons in the game are Staves, mainly Staff of Striking and later Staff of the Ram.

>>3512059
Baldur's Gate III would have been like that;

>The game was said to be truly non-linear, where the player has freedom to visit any location and perform any action they wanted, keeping in mind that there will always be repercussions for the player's actions in the game. Failed/incomplete quests would have had consequences as the game progressed. Unlike previous games, the player was able to switch between alignments depending on the actions in the game. This would have also required the player character to make difficult decisions which could affect his reputation with one group in order to maintain his reputation with another.

They did something similar for Pillars of Eternity. BG's 1&2 were still Bioware games and i guess they didn't give a fuck about complex moral systems.

>>3512148
Because by around 10th level, there's not much use in staying Swashbuckler. You've maxed the necessary thief skills, and you don't have any raises in sneak attack to look forward to. After that point you're just a sub-standard Fighter.

>>3512165
So? The vast majority of classes and Companions are at 1 APR. Too many dexfag nothin personnels these days are trying to push their dual-wield Kensai builds. Try seeing value in builds outside their APR burst capacities.

>>3512167
Staff of Striking is pretty meh. You get like three or four encounters out of it then have to trek back to town to recharge it over and over. Staff of the Ram is fantastic... for the twenty minutes of the game that it's left with.

>>3512281
How do I fund this

>>3514903
I think they used lots of BG III ideas in Pillars of Eternity, there's even a little reference in the game.
I still think BG III would have been better than Pillars and probably the best game of the series.
There was also Torn (original medieval setting with Fallout SPECIAL system) , but sadly everything went to shit before they finished anything.

Does BG2 get good again after chapter 3, or is it sll scripted 2deep4u wankery from there on?

>>3514936
You'll have to wait until you get out of the underdark for free roaming and that's like the end of chapter 5

>>3514942
Christ. That is one thing the original game got right, making free quest choice the rule for 90% of the game.

>>3514921
It would have been much more fun, because the BG classes and kits are 10 times more fun than the homogenized classes in PoE. Hell, the THREE classes in DAO are 3 times more fun than the homogenized classes in PoE.

>>3514954
well you can run around freely in chapter 2, there is nothing making you advance the storyline.

I am trying out the full plate and packing steel mod from G3. So far, i like it, but the movement slowdown due to armor type is making things a bit tedious. It would be better to have the slowdown apply in combat only. Is there a mod that does this?

>>3462703
>or they'll bitch at you for being a do-gooder
Then there is Jaheira who probably bitches to you no matter what you do.

>>3475938
I was about to challenge your bullshit, but then I remembered that I played BG1 with BG2's engine, so I have no idea how vanilla BG1 actually works.

>>3493418
I'm pretty much a perfect example of average player, and I definitely save all the time and if fight gives me trouble, I'm definitely cheesing however I can, including Cloudkill and Fireballs in fog and if that doesn't work it usually results in character death which means load quick save for me.

>>3507057
>Why should I care what customers want
What a dumb cunt

>>3516290
You had to save and reload hundreds of times to get the max. hp for every character, not even lowering the difficulty changed that.

well this thread has got me hyped up, time to install again

btw, how does Arcanum compare to BG and Torment? Never played it before but I bought it from GOG years ago

>>3516950
It has nothing to do with Baldur's Gate, it's more similar to Torment and a lot like Fallout, except for having tons of horrendous unavoidable combat. It deserves to be played though.

>>3516316
Hmm, I would consider myself a total normie as well, but my playstyle tries to avoid those cheesy practices like tossing fireballs at the edge of the fog. I like to tackle the fights head on.

I definitely spam the quicksave button all the time though, and I'm not apprehensive about reloading.

>>3516921
>>3517010

Save scumming for max health in BG1 and constantly reloading in the face of combat encounters is the normal way a player would approach these games. It is just natural due to how crazy hard they are before you master the mechanics. Its how I played them as a newbie. I've gotten away from that by playing as if I were always in Ironman mode (which I have done but I usually end up dying once or twice in 1 due to laziness and quite a few times in 2).

>>3516950
As the other guy said, it compares to Fallout. Similar type of game and the same graphic engine. Except uglier and with more and worse combat.

>>3517093
Also, shooting fireballs into fog is not an exploit. That's what a thief's hide in shadows skill is for; finding enemies before they find you. Its not like the monsters don't attack you after you fireball regardless of whether they can see you or not.

>>3517093
>Its how I played them as a newbie.

It was the opposite for me. The first time i played the game (99 or so) i didn't know shit about AD&D and i didn't know you could have different HP rolls everytime you leveled up.
I think i ended the game having little more than 50 hp with a ranger.
I also think i didn't even touch the stats rolls so it was a really shitty character. And i was a 15 yo without previous RPG experience so it wasn't such a hard game by any means.

It was after that when i started to want more powerful and well done characters, then i learnt about the rules and stuff.

>>3517110
First D&D game I played was Shattered Lands, so I already knew about random HP. But the real time aspect, Command and Conquer type controls of BG was entirely new.

When it comes down to it, random HP IS the rules, and max HP is exploiting. But fuck getting 1s.

>>3514986
>homogenized classes in PoE
Grogtard detected.

>>3517148
Except that I literally mentioned another modern game in the next sentence that had varied classes that all felt different.

>>3517157
In my experience, grogs tend to prefer DA:O (and NWN2) to PoE. In general, they claim that Pillars is "too balanced" and that the classes are "too similar/MMO-ish".

>>3517163
MMOish is a perfectly valid and true complaint though. PoE necessitates a tank and spank approach to every fight because of its engagement system. Tank and Spank is one way to play the BG games, but isn't required. You don't even need a tank.

DAO requires it too, by the way.

>>3517115
If i remember well Icewind Dale had maximum HP by default though.

I guess BG without any adjustments would be really hard to play as a AD&D campaign. Something similar to end the game for the first time without saving and loading.

>>3517312
Oh, IWD most definitely has random HP, and its way more aggravating than it is in BG, because IWD is full of basically unavoidable damage.

>>3517328
I just tried the game now and i think it always gives you max HP (or i'm extremely lucky). I also think easy difficulty in BG II was called "Icewind Dale mode" and they gave you max HP too.

>>3517148
>>3517163
What is this "grog" thing?

>>3517949
"grognard." people who cling to an old edition of D&D, traditionally AD&D although there are plenty of 3rd edition grogs now and probably 4e grogs as well. typically are convinced that game balance is by definition a bad thing because D&D doesn't bother with it. anything they don't like is inevitably compared to MMOs.

>>3517949
Grognard. It means "complainer", specifically a veteran (soldier) who is fond of complaining. Commonly used term amongst tabletop wargamers.

In this case, the PoEIDF is using it as an insult to defend their bad game by suggesting that the only reason you wouldn't think it is good is because it is new.

>>3518295
>>3518321
>tabletop gaming for the last 25 years and somehow never heard this before
>probably going to hear it everywhere now "what you never heard of grognards?!"

Weird. Thanks for explaining though.

>>3518435
Its what Napoleon's veterans were called because they grumbled and complained a lot. Obviously comes to wargaming through the historical angle. I definitely first heard it when I used to play WH40k though.

>>3518435
Just called up one of the guys I game with.

>you know what a 'grognard' is?
>>you, anytime someone tries to sub a unit?

Sheeeeit. Apparently it was just me that didn't know.

>>3517342
You're gonna have to screencap that shit, because I don't believe you.

Icewind Dale most assuredly had randomized health rolls, It's the game where I learned to abuse save-scumming just to get top stats.

>>3517328
How do you mean "unavoidable damage"? Got any examples?

>>3518469
I don't know how you would get through the Yuan Ti dungeon without taking mountains of damage.

>>3517312
>>3517328
>>3517342
>>3518469
EEs have it optional, but max HP is the default. It's also present in tweak pa ks for the original games.

>>3518435
Why aren't we /grog/?

>>3518494
*Tweak packs

>>3518478
If that's the one with all the salamanders as well I get what you mean.

>>3518494
Max HP is the default on the low difficulty settings.

>>3508884
>Because they are weak.
They're kind of weak in BG2 mainly because most dungeon chaff is not much of a threat, and most of the significant battles are big setpieces that can't be scouted - for those that can, a x5 backstab is a hell of an opener.

They're way more useful in BG1 due to the lower power scale of the games and due to how helpful scouting ahead is during wilderness exploration.

>>3462617
6 man party

2 frontline (fighter/pally recommended)
2 support (thief/ranger recommended)
1 mage with loads of crowd control and aoe/dps spells
1 cleric

>>3509167
>>3509326
I disagree pretty strongly here. The powerscale is completely different and the gameplay emphasis is very different. BG1 is far more wilderness-exploration focused and most of the events and encounters are things you stumble on while combing an area, whereas in BG2 you mostly explore Athkatla and only really venture into an area with a discrete objective. The former is a far more gritty murderhobo experience.

>>3518646
>loads of crowd control and aoe/dps spells
Attack spells are pretty shit, you want crowd control, buffs, and debuffs. Only time you want attack spells is if an enemy with ridiculous AC is in your way.

>>3496507

>look at this guy

>>3518469
No, they give you max hp in every level.
I just tried, 6 characters, 90000 xp with a trainer, and all of them got max hp. Changing the difficulty doesn't do anything. It's not EE and it doesn't have any mods except for widescreen.

I can only think it's something they changed with heart of winter, or somehow we played different versions, but i really doubt it.

>>3518748
I don't have heart of winter and I have 0 mods installed, playing from the original cd's.

It is very likely we are playing different versions.

>>3518748
Those sprites are from the BG2 engine. IWD1 used the BG1 engine originally. Not sure what version of IWD you've got running there.

>>3508703
if you watch closely... you can see the burned ass

I never really considered the kit before, but consider the following as regards the barbarian:

-Faster movement makes kiting before you get the speed boots easier
-Rage sucks compared to the berserker's, but still lets you go head to head with sirines or casters without risking gameover
-unlike berserker, can used ranged weapons

I think the kit is extremely good for a solo and/or ironman run. Amongst the top tier even.

>>3519224
IIRC there were some sprite updates to BG2 style in IWD updates or Heart of Winter.

Unfortunately the battle sprites are also slightly bugged but there's a mod to fix their positions and such.

>>3519224
Just the regular version with Hearts of Winter and Trials of Luremaster. HoW changed the sprites to the BG2 ones.

>>3519293
And i have to say i really disliked that change, i always preffered BG1 sprites by far, but sadly you can't chose that.

>>3512281
The thing is, basically nothing in that is dependent on technology.
It's just that making a designing the infinite tree of possibilities is fuckton of work and then testing it's implementation is another workload.

Thinking of taking a halfling fighter/thief

Do the halflings get any romance options in BG2?

>>3519302
Other than the female fighter having a leotard, they aren't that great. The sprites are always hunched over in an awkward manner.

>>3519326
>It's just that making a designing the infinite tree of possibilities is fuckton of work and then testing it's implementation is another workload.

Yes, and all that work it's only going to get appreciated by an small percentage of players.
Most people still think that New Vegas was some sort of Fallout 3 expansion.

>>3519302
>>3519554
1PP's sprite fix can restore the BG1 style at least. Not sure if that works with EE though.

>>3519547
Halflings get all the romance options. If I recall correctly, it goes:

Jaheira: Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, Halflings
Aerie: Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, Gnomes, Halflings
Viconia: Humans, Half-Elves, Halflings, Half-Orcs

Jaheira has the base options, Aerie adds Gnomes, and Viconia removes Elves but adds Half-Orcs.

>>3519735
It just changes the wretched default BG2 Paper Dolls, the sprites are still BG2. EE also ditches the awful BG2 Paper Dolls. Though it doesn't have the leotard, instead the fighter has a short skirt like the cleric.

>>3500974
Thaco to me makes more sense if you add the ac score to the roll instead of the number you must hit.

>>3501175
If you read the rules at all thaco is pretty easy to understand.

>>3519268
>unlike berserker, can used ranged weapons
berserkers can use ranged weapons, they just can't do more than specialize (two blips), just like barbarians