/vr/ - Retro Games

>>3457507
So I was wondering when exactly people start saying that RPGs from Japan are predominantly turn-based, while the West apparently had less real-time RPGs than Japan.

Obviously I should compare that list with the amount of turn-based RPGs from Japan, and likewise with the Western list. Maybe Japan has more TB:RT ratio than the West?

the first mistake you're making is a false dichotomy of Japan and West. The rest is just confused rambling

Some of these seem to really push the definition of RPG, particularly Lord Monarch.
Why would you count Revival Xanadu?

>>3457507
>RPG
>Zelda
>Golden Axe Warriors
>Beyond Oasis

Yeah no, go fuck yourself.

>>3457645
>false dichotomy of Japan and West.
>false
Are you implying Western games are as good as Japanese? What a retard, lol.

>>3457758

>>3457826
What a homo you are.

>>3457826
>Are you implying Western games are as good as Japanese?
Not him, but of course; why else do you think the Nips stole our concepts from us Mr. Weeb?

>>3458182
As expected of video game journalism :)

>Zelda
I'll concede Zelda II as an RPG but to call any of the other entries that is just wrong. They're action/adventure games at best

Are you counting shit like ABT on post IV Final Fantasy?

Quake is my favorite real-time RPG

>>3458602
>is
has

>>3457758

>>3458768
Did Zelda I even have an EXP system? If so, who ever wrote that is a fucking moron.

>>3458781
do RPGs need one?

>>3458786
Indeed they do

>>3458789
so many RPG systems you just invalidated, well done

>>3458793
Then they aren't RPGs. Name one notable "RPG" that doesn't have an EXP system.

>>3458789
What would be /vr/'s definition of RPG?
-some sort of control over the character development, be it by selecting upgrades or by earning XP
-small group of individuals as opposed to tactics and strategy where you control large groups of identical units

>>3458794
As I learned elsewhere, Final Fantasy II, the SaGa series. On pen&paper you have one shot RPGs like Dread

>>3458797
>>3458804
>by selecting upgrades
I think this lies in what you mean by upgrades. Metroid's introduction of different abilities would not count. Upgrading (basically permanently buffing) your speed counts.

>>3458781
Interestingly the very same issue also had pic related as an article.

>>3458807
I'm >>3458804 but not >>3458797 and I do not follow their position

>>3458815
What is your position?

>>3458813
What kind of table talk RPG do they play with groups of 10?
I'm more used to 2-4 players with players handling multiple characters to balance things out when necessary.

>>3458816
It's an RPG if character development happens and is distinct from player development. That is not restricted to combat abilities and positive character traits. It does not require full and intentional control of the player over the character. The development may be expressed in experience, stats changes, skill changes, modifiers. All interaction of the character with the game world is resolved through skill and stat checks.
And as with every rule, there are exceptions. It's all up to interpretation.

Aside from Zelda, which of those games would you classify as RPG and which not?
Skipping those you aren't familiar enough with.

RPG:
Baldur's Gate
Diablo
Dragon Knight III
Dragon Slayer
Dungeon Explorer
Hydlide 1-3
Might and Magic 6-7
Night Slave
Planescape Torment
Sorcerian
System Shock 2
Ultima except for 8
(Revival) Xanadu
Ys 1-3

Not RPG:
Faxanadu
Lord Monarch
Romancia (Another Legend)
Shiryou Sensen
Ultima 8

>>3458886
>Aside from Zelda
y

>>3458794
Traveller has no experience system and is still recognized as an RPG.

>>3458794
Illusion of Gaia

>>3458886
>Diablo
>Dragon Slayer
>Dungeon Explorer
>Hydlide 1-3
>Night Slave
>Sorcerian
>(Revival) Xanadu
>Ys 1-3
Those aren't RPGs.

>>3458797
I'm (video game) RPGs the defining characteristic is that you collect XPs to power up. That is essentially the defining quality of a video game rpg.

>>3459318
>>>/tg/

>>3459807
Based on what? Xanadu and Hydlide 3 were some of the deepest RPGs of the time.

RPG doesen't mean "EXP" or "UPGRADES"

RPG's defining characteristic is that player has a choice in how character (or sometimes, world around them) develops through out the game, and change the playstyle of said character to their liking. In the end of an RPG, 2 players starting as same class/character may get completely different characters with completely different playstyles.

Zelda is not an RPG, becasue by the end of the game every player gonna have same set of skills/items/abilities, the difference would be only numerical in the hearts/rupies department. This is why Zelda is an action adventure.
Metroid is the same, sure there are ways NOT to get certain upgrades through skipping, but there is no point where you have to chose between one upgrade or the other.


Player choice is the key here. If there is no player input in the matter of character or world development, and all players starting with an X character will end the game with same character that has same abilities and non-numerical properties, then it is not an RPG.


Diablo 1/2, for isntance, is still an RPG, just it belongs to a specific subgenre of Hack'n'slash. For instance, you can make a magic-oriented Rogue in first one, or melee Zealot Enchantress in the second one. There are literally hundreds of ways to play a single character.

>>3458794
>>3459815
There are some item-based RPGs, where your stats are set at generation and afterwards your abilities and playstyle are defined by the items you take throughout the journey.

>>3459979
Ran out of space there, so to expand a bit:

EXP is an RPG element, sure. That's why a game that is not RPG, but has some EXP and EXP-based progression (mostly numerical) is called a "actual game genre here> with RPG elements", but not an RPG.

Castlevania SOTN for example has RPG elements, but it's definitely not an RPG.

Far Cry 3 and loads of other action games have RPG-like progression with EXP and items and all, but are still not RPGs because progression in this cases will not make a difference on the end result.

Some jRPGs for instance have absolutely no right to be called "RPG", but still do because japanese dev's are used to sticking the term to anything at least remotely related, in hope to appeal to "geek audience" how they percieve it.

>>3459989
>Some jRPGs for instance have absolutely no right to be called "RPG"
I think at this point JRPG is used to denote a certain genre of games, that's not necessarily RPG. It's accepted as such, and the term just has historical origin

>>3459815
Sometimes XP is just a name. It could be called gold or simply points and nothing would change.

>>3459998
That what I was trying to say Some jRPGs are RPGs, other jRPGs are not.

>>3460001
whoops quoted wrong one , meant to quote >>3459996 obviously.

>>3460002
I'm just saying it's probably not even for the geek cred, it's just that this genre is called JRPG. As far as they're concerned, it's 4 random letters

>>3459979
What if there is a level/stat cap? In the end most characters will be identical but there can be pronounced differences over the course of the game.

>>3459979
So a game like Wizardry IV is not an RPG?

>>3460093
Does it have to be? Wizardry 4 is basically designed as an anti-RPG.
Wizardry 1 is the crucial game that can't be excluded by a definition.

>>3459940
Not this guy but Night Slave only has weapon selection at the start of a mission and Gradius power-up system.

If you call that an RPG, then even U.N. Squadron is one.

>>3460239
You gain experience in main and side weapons with those power ups.
Do you have a problem with Area 88?

>>3460243
Radiant Silvergun RPG too.

>>3460256
If it allows some kind of personalized development as outlined by >>3459979 I don't see why not.
A game shouldn't be ruled out just because of a name or other content.

Ultima VII is the greatest adventure in gaming for me.

I just played it for the third time, 10 years later and it still holds up. It is a good example of how world interaction and exploration are more important than combat encounters in an RPG.

how about a real time party based rpg for the nes
you can even issue commands to your allies
I mostly play turn based but this was a nice find
there's also madara but escaping from battles sucked balls in that one

>>3460773
Maybe you should play adventures instead of RPGs.
The gameplay, particularly the combat, in Ultima 7 is terrible and holds back the experience.

>>3460863

It basically is an adventure game but it is also certainly an RPG.

>>3457758
He's right. Beyond Oasis is even less of an RPG than Zelda is. That whole list is ridiculous.

>>3458768
Screenshotting something idiotic someone else said doesn't make it true. Zelda is not an RPG. Weak bait everywhere. /vr/ is embarrassing these days.

>>3458834
Might be less common now. In the 80's and 90's when table top gaming was big, it wasn't uncommon at all to have groups of 10+ players some days.

>>3461131
In Zelda you play the role of Link.

>>3459979
>RPG doesen't mean "EXP" or "UPGRADES"

When you're talking video games, yes it does actually. RPG doesn't mean what you want a "role playing" game to be. It's just a descriptor for a genre where leveling via XP is a key component.

No matter how many times you try saying otherwise you will always be wrong.

>>3461137
That's even weaker bait. I'm going to go play my favorite RPG now, Gradius where I play the role of a Vic Viper pilot and level up my weapons and ship speed.

People on this board put a lot of effort into being purposefully stupid, it's really weird.

>>3461141
That's really not what he said.

>>3461115
Martian Dreams did it better.

>>3461148
In Salamander you can play as Lord British from the Ultima series.
Everyone agrees that Ultima are RPG so Salamander is as well.

>>3461149
I didn't bother reading that diatribe of his, I've read many already. It's what he usually gets down to.

>>3458804
>Final Fantasy II, the SaGa series
They have experience values, only they're obscured from the player.

>>3461149

Martian Dreams is good but is certainly not a beloved classic like Ultima VII.

Did you even play any of these games or are you going based on how much you liked the box art?

>>3461131
Then what is an RPG? In video game terms, of course. Tabletop RPG is a whole different beast.

What are the definitions of RPG? What included and what excluded? How do you differentiate it from a game with "RPG elements"?

List is bullshit. If Zelda is an RPG, then Star Tropics should also be on that list. Same game.

Also, it seems to me that the threshold for being an "RPG" is that you pick up items and upgrade your character. If so, then Contra is also an "action RPG" by these standards.

Also, Front Mission Gun Hazard is TRULY an action RPG, made in 1996, but it's missing from this stupid list. It's nowhere near exclusive.

>Horii: Right, the term “RPG” has somehow been misunderstood by many of today’s games; they think that increasing your stats is roleplaying. Originally you inhabited the role of another character in an RPG. I mean, game systems where you defeat enemies and collect gold do help sustain players’ interest and ambition, but I feel something is being missed here.

From: http://shmuplations.com/kiyahorii/

OP should've just said Action/Adventure and include some other stuff like Metroid.

>>3462351
that Horii dude knows what's up. Shame about people like >>3461141 though. They're the reason we're stuck with this shallow junk, visual novels with overly convoluted exp based combat mechanics, and nothing else.

>>3462129
Yes, Ultima 7 was a big disappointment for me. In many a lot of aspects it was a downgrade compared to its predecessors.
Serpent Isle was even worse.

>>3462390

Opinion discarded, it was in no way a downgrade.

>>3461348
>They have experience values
FFII has experience values for spells only.

SaGa has no experience values whatsoever, it works entirely on roll checks.

>>3462765
not him, but how do stat growths work in the SNES RS1?
FFII I get, it kinda makes sense to me
lose HP, get HP
lose MP, get MP
attack shit, get stronger
dodge shit, get agile
In RS3 you can't increase your base stats through actions, only through equipment
but in RS1 my base stats keep increasing after battle (even for characters that ran away from battle)
is there a site with stat growth formulas/rates?

>>3462775
>how do stat growths work in the SNES RS1?
>my base stats keep increasing after battle (even for characters that ran away from battle)
Each command input gives you a roll check that gets confirmed the moment you input the command, additionally, there are general roll checks albeit with lower success chances for other stats that depend on each character innate growth table.
To be perfectly clear, the game checks the dice roll the very moment you confirm a command, even if it doesn't come out, innate growth roll checks influence your input roll checks as well as giving you a random chance of increasing a stat depending on the character, for instance Jamil has better innate SPD growth than Sif and will level up much faster simply because this growth rate in SPD is, for instance, 150% to Sif's 75%, can't remember the exact values, conversely Sif has better innate STR growth.
You can of course further influence this with nurturing, if you make Jamil attack frequently with a greatsword and make Sif only use magic or something not tied to STR based actions Jamil will end up being physically stronger than Sif in the long run due to his actions resulting in such growth.
Another factor that weighs in is BR, fighting enemies that are stronger than you significantly alters roll checks in your favor making your characters grow faster, conversely, fighting low BR enemies significantly decreases roll checks to the point that you may fight for hours and not get any stat increase.
>In RS3 you can't increase your base stats through actions, only through equipment
That's because it runs on a fixed stat system unlike other SaGa systems with variable stat system.
Frontier and SaGa 1 and 2 are the same, RomaSaGa 2/3 and Frontier 2 have fixed stat systems.
>is there a site with stat growth formulas/rates?
Any JP wiki has detailed growth tables, most FAQs on gamefaqs do as well, hope you like to read a lot of stuff though.

>>3462846
thanks for the detailed response

>>3462691
-removed interactivity such as milking cows or churning butter
-no more line of sight, everything is visible as soon as it gets into reach
-overworld is ridiculously small
-dungeons are even smaller and consist of little more than a room with a lever
-no quest log like in Savage Empire or Martian Dreams
-no horses, instead you get wagons that are frustrating to man and steer
-no more skiffs or boats
-combat reduced to chaos
-inventories reduced to chaos
-fewer companions to pick from, none of whom can use magic
-dialogs make it difficult to go back to a previous topic
-retarded box stacking puzzles

The game also feels somewhat rushed and unfinished. Not as bad as Serpent Isle or Pagan but some plot hooks aren't properly connected. For instance the murder series is only solved at the ended via deus ex machina or the human-gargoyle issue in Vesper.

>>3462390
kys

>>3457507
what is this

>>3457507
if you count system shock as rpgs you can as well include hexen and strife games

>>3460243
I don't have a problem with Area 88 nor Night Slave, I love both. It's just silly to label them as Real-time RPGs.

Then games like God of War or Dead Rising are RPGs too. Hell, any game with an ounce of upgradable stat or equipment is one by your logic.

>>3465224
I think it's silly to reduce RPGs to dungeon crawling fantasy games just because DnD and Wizardry popularized them.
If stat management is a core aspect on the game, i.e. a critical influence between failure and success, then it counts as RPG. If it's just a minor factor then it's RPG elements.

>>3458383
Lel western games suck.

>>3458191

Sick burn, fàm.