/vr/ - Retro Games

Well the South Koreans have proven that StarCraft is all about math and they've figured out the exact, perfect sequence for an optimum game. With that said, there's no more random elements, even against other players who also have the math memorized. So yes, with that in mind I'd say Quake is harder that starcraft, if for no other reason than it has an element of unpredictability.

>>3393620
this is the ultimate apple/orange comparison. there's no comparing the two skill-sets. i've played competitive quake 3 for ~15 years. there's no way a starcraft player is going to pick up the game and come anywhere close & vice versa. the question is...is it easier to master quake 3 or starcraft? i think both are deep-skill games, in that one can continuously refine and become more sophisticated at the game. quake demands more physical and reflexive skill, more precision. strategy can take it to the next level, but it's nothing without muscle memory and sharp reflexes. quake is more like boxing, requiring reading and predicting your opponent. starcraft i assume is far more cerebral, and physical quickness is instead the supplementary but critical skill needed to manifest deep strategy. they're quite opposites. from my experience, i think more starcraft players could eventually master quake than quake players could eventually master starcraft. i'm not saying quake players are dumb....but starcraft at its apex probably requires a greater balance of brain and brawn, while you can get away with just insane experiential skill in quake.

>sorry if you were looking for a simplistic shitpost
>if you meant literally quake 1, then starcraft

>>3393620
So when you play an arena game that doesn't have hitscan weapons and you need to lead your target by like four seconds, what's that?

Besides tribes.

>>3393620
It just depends on how good the person/people you're playing against is/are.

>>3393628
>Well the South Koreans have proven that StarCraft is all about math and they've figured out the exact, perfect sequence for an optimum game. With that said, there's no more random elements, even against other players who also have the math memorized.
That's a lot of words to say "I have no idea what the fuck I'm talking about". Go watch one of the Brood War tournaments, nothing is set in stone.

>>3393620
I cringed.

>>3393704
I just wanted to say I love that pic and thank you for posting it.

>>3393620
DOTA if you want to objectively look at it. Simply for the fact that it has the largest tournaments for any video game ever. So the skill level needed is extremely high to have team qualify.

Has a skill level as high as any RTS game. Just minus the micro.

>>3393620
I always imagined arena FPSes as easy to pick up and play but difficult to master.

>>3393628
This is not true at all. It's an imperfect information game for fucks sake. And strategies are very arbitrary in it, a certain way of playing can become top tier since people just become very good at controlling the units that strategy uses, and then other people have to adjust but likewise people can become worse if they practice less.

>>3395408
Curse you surprise fish!!

>>3393628
People said the same thing about 1.6 and Quake. It's not true at all. The problem is there isn't as much money in those games anymore so the metagame becomes stagnant and moves at a much slower rate than before. If tomorrow all these old games were having 2 million dollar tournaments I bet you ass new crazy strats would come into play and the metagame changes drastically.

Just look at sports like American Football. The way people play changes all the time through the years cause they are actually getting paid and there is higher interest in the sport.

>>3395421
MOBAs don't require skill, mate. They require an ability to not lose your temper and cry like a bitch because you lost.

>>3393620

Whether or not it is, that is a troll pic and you fell for it hard.

>>3396164
The dankest meme

>>3395421

To answer your question OP, probably RTS

>>3395421
You are either retarded or have a complete lack of knowledge about any genre at high level, including dotalikes

>>3396216
>>3396241
>>3396164
I said DOTA, idiots Specifically talking about DOTA 2. Not the copies.

Which is the largest tournament in gaming ever. Any retard can make it to a qualifier. Not any retard can qualify.

>>3396246
By that logic call of duty requires more skill than quake

You are a fucking idiot

>>3396273
CoD tournaments aren't that big. They just have that once a year big one.

Quake being a dead game doesn't have much. But in the early 2000s it was the biggest as far as FPS goes.

Hardcore gayming is a meme and a huge waste of time.

>>3396204
Oh come on, people on League report you for kicking the shit out of an Ashe as Lux. Even though Lux is infinitely stronger than Ashe in every aspect.

"Hey gaiz I can stun people once per blue moon." "Big fucking deal Lux does that every three seconds!"

>>3396364
People seem to think that "hardcore" and "difficult" are synonymous. It's not.

A game is hardcore when it has permanent consequences that will persist throughout the game which are brought about by in-game mechanics and not scripted events. Jagged Alliance 2 can be called hardcore, but it certainly is not a difficult game.

>>3393620

>>3393620
Every time I see this image I say to myself "Hmm, I wonder which types of games the creator of this image plays?"

A set of skills varies vastly from genre to genre and is hard to compare.

Take his brushing away of MOBAs. Why? In that image, plenty that is said about fighting games applies here as well. Not saying I'd place MOBAs on equal ground, but let's look at it.

Let's look at League of Legends. Riot is about to release its 132nd champion. That is a ridiculous roster. Each champion has at least 5 abilities (Passive / Q / W / E / R) with some having as many as 8. Just taking the baseline 5 into account, that is 660 different abilities. Now take into account 98 different types of runes, 30 mastery points to be allocated over 41 different masteries, and a fuck ton of items that I'm not even counting (due to some only being available to certain champions or game modes).

That being said, it is much like fighting games in that aspect. To be a highly skilled player, you must learn all of these things. All of these variables. Sure, you will not encounter certain champions very often and other ones far more often. Those more frequent champions will often use similar runes, masteries, skill distributions, and items on top of that. Think of this along the lines of "Nobody uses Dan because there is no reason to" and "Why wouldn't use his bread and butter combos or use fireballs to zone? It wouldn't be optimal to otherwise."

The main aspect of MOBAs that really knock them pegs lower than fighting games is the team aspect. In every other genre mentioned, making exception to some games in the "modern FPS" genre", all decisions land solely on one person. Sadly, the solo experience for modern FPS and MOBA can vary by a huge margin thanks to the random nature of your teammates. The same factor applies to your opponents, but that doesn't make for a very good feeling. On the high end of the spectrum in full team play, the skill line begins to blur again. (Cont.)

>>3396437
If I had to choose, I would tier them like this:

-RTS
-Fighting
-Arena
-Certain modern FPS
-Certain MOBAs
-Other modern FPS
-Other MOBAs

The lines between them varying greatly. I may be shitting out a wall of text, but I'll refrain from getting too gay by making a graph or some shit.

tl;dr - Skill varies too widely between genres and the person who made that image doesn't take enough into consideration.

>>3396442
Swap Fighting and RTS and its accurate

>>3396437
>Each champion has at least 5 abilities (Passive / Q / W / E / R) with some having as many as 8. Just taking the baseline 5 into account, that is 660 different abilities

Not really, most of these abilities are essentially the same thing with different names.
Out of these 660 abilities you mentioned, i don't think even 50 are unique.

DOTA, with far less characters, had much more unique and creative abilities than LoL ever did, even if many were passive.

>>3396737
I wasn't arguing that they were immensely diverse. Just that when you see your opponent, you must know what mix of abilities they have or you can't defeat them properly. This applies to any opponent in any game.

What do you guys think about armored core

>>3396781
I love it, but I haven't played it since AC3. Half of the battle takes place before you start, with your AC design.

Is there yet a good multiplayer version that emulates the gameplay in AC1, phantasma, and MoA yet?

>>3393620

Does it really matter matter which type of game takes the most skill? Or is this just a transparent attempt to get people to stroke your ego so you can feel better about liking a dead video game genre?

Overwatch may have a lower skill ceiling, but at least I can find people my skill level to play with any time of day.

Shmups > *

The state of high-level competitive RTS is downright depressing with SC2 being the gold standard.

Rather than focus on real time strategy games that involve actual, you know, strategy, the scene revolves entirely around macro-oriented busywork.

Who the fuck wants to mindlessly mash hotkeys at 200 APM? It's tedious. WC3 and the Relic RTS games all do it infinitely better.

>>3396930

I disagree that WC3 and Relic do it better but once you understand that Starcraft isn't so much about Strategy, but pumping out economy and units as fast as possible with what units you're building being either

>The Overpowered ones
>Ones that are good vs. ones your enemy is building

Then it becomes a shitload less interesting. The only tactics that come into play are essentially your opener, then once the game stabilizes it becomes building as much shit as possible.

The funny thing is upgrades and shit are largely worthless because breakpoints don't exist. A +1 attack zealot will kill a zergling in 2 hits, but once a zergling gets +1 armor that doesn'thappen until you get +2 attack, so unless you're ahead on upgrades you'll never hit those breakpoints.

It sucks because I honestly believe that if every unit in Starcraft 2 fired at half the speed it would be a lot more interesting game.

>>3396906

Is that supposed to prove your point? Cause that entire game is piss easy.

Oh wait.
>2hufags
>Actually playing games

HAHAHAHA!

>>3396943
Does this help prove his point?

>>3396906
>>3396943
>>3396946
step it up sempai

>>3397026
Don't you have to do something extremely obscure on each floor? So you pretty much need a guide to get through?

>>3396906
Top kek

>>3396906
>blinked
>died