[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/vr/ - Retro Games


View post   

File: 593 KB, 1000x697, IMG_8783.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3179038 No.3179038 [Reply] [Original]

what's wrong with playing 4th gen shit on flatscreens? pic related is sega genesis on a 720p screen, no upscaler. sega does have high definition graphics you know

>> No.3179060

>>3179038
I dont see an problems with your screen.

>> No.3179062

>>3179060
alot of people on vr say you gotta either get an upscaler or use a crt

>> No.3179064

For the love of god do NOT hit ANY button while taking down the password in this game.

>> No.3179067

There's nothing wrong with doing it, the CRT thread is just a circlejerk. The equivalent is 90 year olds and hipsters saying "music only sounds good on vinyl."

>> No.3179071

>picture shifted to the right
>terrible ringing
>artifacts everywhere
I mean if you don't give a shit I guess.

>> No.3179083

>>3179038

Someone take a pic of this game on a CRT to prove this faggot wrong.

>> No.3179086

>>3179083
Take you underage ass back to >>>/v/

>> No.3179092

>>3179086
stop being a sheep.

>> No.3179094

>>3179092
>stop being a sheep.
This coming from the guy who thinks 4chan is his personal army and parrots /v/.

>> No.3179095
File: 269 KB, 400x367, 1449597271603.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3179095

>>3179067

Even though I prefer to play old games on my crt I agree with that. Shit, some guys took that too far, it's ridiculous how they got triggered when you don't play your games on [SPECIFIC DEVICE][SPECIFIC BRAND][SPECIFIC SIZE][SPECIFIC REGION][SPECIFIC SETTING]

>> No.3179098
File: 19 KB, 643x274, nope.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3179098

>>3179094
try again.
the whole "back to /v/, underage" meme is getting a bit tired, that's all.

>> No.3179103

>>3179071
it looks way better in real life.

>> No.3179104 [DELETED] 

>>3179098
Wow dank screenshot with another /v/ meme.

>> No.3179108

>>3179104
what are you even talking about?
kill yourself

>> No.3179109

How about you both either shut the FUCK up or say something /vr/-related.

>> No.3179112

>>3179108
Damn kid you told me.

>> No.3179117

>>3179112
sorry i can't say anything else or >>3179109 is going to yell at me.

>> No.3179120

>play Super Hang-On with actual seriousness
>set maximum possible high score
>switch to crt
>why am I suddenly able to score higher?

>> No.3179198

>>3179120
>set maximum possible high score
>why am I suddenly able to score higher?
practice

>> No.3179345

>>3179038
>what's wrong with playing 4th gen shit on flatscreens?
can't you feel that input delay?

it's pretty bad matey

>> No.3179356

>>3179198
No.

Play basically any score-crush arcade game that uses looping increasingly fast gameplay. Super Hang-On is a fine example.

Play it on an HDTV until you max out your ability and literally cannot score any higher or even just until your scores plateau if you're dead set on rejecting the concept of a skill ceiling

Then immediately play the same exact game on a CRT and you will discover you are able to score noticeably higher. This isn't a meme this is lag. You can adapt to lag, you may even not perceive it but if you reach real levels of skill you won't be able to deny its existence.

>> No.3179357

>>3179345
>matey
Nice dank meme.

>> No.3179361

>>3179356
>max out your ability
apparently not

now do it back and forth, instead of only going one direction. Do it with at least a handful of people of varying skill levels.

>> No.3179375

>>3179361
It's only going to be applicable above a certain skill level. The typical example is that it's essentially impossible to beat Mike Tyson's Punch-Out with delay typical of an HDTV's internal upscaler. However, old school style arcade games that go forever just getting faster and faster will all illustrate this even better (but not as memorably)

>> No.3179379

If you're going to play on an LCD, that's fine. You should at least be using RGB though, the dot crawl there is awful.

>> No.3179380

>>3179038
The vast majority of flat screens are sample-and-hold. Either use a CRT or a modern gaming LCD with strobe.

>> No.3179383

>>3179038
>course: apricot

>> No.3179389

>>3179071
>>artifacts everywhere
this, everytime i play ps1 games on my ps2
not an issue on the ps3 though

>> No.3179394

Use an RGB SCART cable. It looks really good on a HDTV then.

>> No.3179416

>>3179062
I think people on /vr/ don't actually play video games but spend all their time amassing the perfect way to play and then shout at people on the internet who do it differently.
It's a dope hobby.

>> No.3179421

>>3179416
what was the last /vr/ game you played? when? and with what setup?

>> No.3179461

>>3179421
I played through Resident Evil yesterday and Beyond Oasis today both on my 3DS.

>> No.3179482

>sega does have high definition graphics you know

Really nobody got OP's joke?

>> No.3179490

>>3179482
you call it a joke, others see a simple shitpost and ignore that aspect for the sake of having something resembling a thread

>> No.3179494

It's just an opinion whether or not it looks better on a CRT, just like it's just an opinion whether or not Squall was an emo or Ocarina of Time was overrated
I knew some guy that played his PS3 in 480p on an HDTV for no reason whatsoever, and when I mentioned it to him and switched it to 1080p, he didn't even notice the difference. And it's not even like he has bad eyes or anything.
Some people just don't care I guess, personally I don't understand it but it's whatever
Play however works for you.

There's really no sense arguing about it.

>> No.3179496

>>3179038
There are 2 major reasons: forced deinterlacing and input lag. Digital TVs can't handle 240p content, they treat it as 480i, and apply deinterlacing. You can see this when flickering graphics turn into striped lines instead.

The lag might be imperceptible or very bad depending on your setup. On my TV it is not a problem, but I use a plasma not an LCD.

On that note my 18 inch CRT with composite input actually looks prettier than my 1080p plasma with RGB SCART input. The only reason I don't bother with it is because it is simply not convenient (the plasma screen is 42", wall mounted, and has so many inputs that I don't even need a scart switcher).

>>3179345
>>3179356

Most TVs have like 2-3 frames of input delay, which is not really noticeable. If you add shit like scanline generators and upscalers and shit, then yeah, you'll get worse lag because each of those devices add more to it.

>> No.3179513

>>3179356
>Play basically any score-crush arcade game that uses looping increasingly fast gameplay. Super Hang-On is a fine example.

Super Hang-On is not a good example because
- the arcade version is ridiculously hard regardless of what display you use (the Europe course, that is - the rest are easy)
- the Megadrive version runs at 10-30fps and has input lag due to the framedrops, plus you have no analog control, so the only way to position yourself while doing a turn is to mess around by pressing either brake or turbo next to the gas.

And like I said, all digital displays have different lag. My TV has something like 2 frames max according to online lists, and I can 1cc a shitload of shmups on my Saturn and notice zero difference in controls compared to a CRT.

>> No.3179540
File: 363 KB, 1600x1200, dl.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3179540

>>3179416
under rated post
>>3179421
Dragon's Lair, 3DO, last night. 2 crt's at the same time with an A/v receiver in pure direct stereo output. Any other way is inferior. I could easily afford an AES but I never wanted one.Modern games are all garbage, retro games aren't mostly trash. I 1cc'd that...yada...shit taste..yada...piss easy

>> No.3179548
File: 50 KB, 320x288, dragons-lair.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3179548

>>3179540
>Any other way is inferior

>> No.3179565

>>3179513
>so the only way to position yourself while doing a turn is to mess around by pressing either brake or turbo next to the gas.

What, you mean you have to brake in a racing game? Heaven forbid. Also there are different angles you can go at, just tap L or R faster or slower.

>> No.3179619

>>3179540
3 tvs or you're a kiddo.

>> No.3179620

>>3179565
>Also there are different angles you can go at, just tap L or R faster or slower.

Yup, and the only reason that works is because the game has laggy as fuck slow controls, where you have to hold left or right for 1-3 seconds (depending on how badly the game just slowed down) to get a full turn.

Point is that the game is not a good example for lag caused by digital TVs, because the game ALREADY has a shit ton of input lag.

>> No.3179636

>>3179620
oh stfu. Technically you may be right, but that is one of the weirdest ways you could ever put it for such an intentional and good control scheme. "laggy" sounds as if it's something unintended and off, not an integral part of the game.

>> No.3179649

>>3179620
That's fair. I use plasma too though and I loop my shut through aPVM that suits next to it so they both get the same signal at the same time. The delay is quite perceptible when you can just go from looking at one to looking at the other. The controls "feel" different and noticeably worse on the plasma. Even for games that are only just barely skill based. Like for example I was playing Persona 3 and it's much much harder to get the card you want during the shuffle sequences if you do it looking at the plasma.

>> No.3179831

>>3179067
music doesn't only sound good on vinyl but a lot of people prefer it that way. personally i just prefer to play my games the way they were developed, i don't particularly care how other people do it because i'm not an autist.

>> No.3179864

In theory music on vinyl can sound better than on CD. But you'd need a >$1,500 player and forensic-style caution in the one time you removed it from its packaging to put in the player. Sorry if this is all very obvious, I have very little interest in music but I just find that interesting.

>> No.3179871

>>3179636
>"laggy" sounds as if it's something unintended and off, not an integral part of the game.

It's laggy because your turn speed is very slow and much much less precise than in the arcade, and the framerate drops exacerbate the problem as the lag gets higher as the game slows down.

The slowdown on it is so bad that there was actually a second revision of the game published, that caps the framerate, so it doesn't jump up to 30fps when there is nothing on the screen.

>>3179831
Vinyl only sounds better nowadays because too many albums have overcompressed dynamics and severe clipping problems in an attempt to make each album louder and louder. Vinyl is... somewhat less affected by that problem.

>> No.3179882

>>3179482
someone gets it

>> No.3181142

>>3179864
>>3179831

I think most people who like vinyl like it for it's imperfections... the analog distortion and crackling. I imagine most people listening to vinyl these days wouldn't really be able to tell you about dynamic range differences and shit (which is fine, enjoy your media how you like).

Is this is similar to the distortion from a CRT like scanlines that are technically an imperfection but people enjoy (at least in retrospect)

>> No.3181150

>>3181142
>scanlines that are technically an imperfection
which brings us to the inevitable question. Scanlines were part of console video games back then, no way around them. How much were the visuals designed with them in mind? That's part of why people emulate scanlines nowadays, even if they never dealt with them back in the days.

>> No.3181165

>>3181150
Unrelated but is scanlines some thing unique to American TVs? I've been gaming since the C64 but none of my TVs nor any of my consoles ever had scanlines on them. The only way you could differentate 240p and 480i was that the screen was shaking in 480i modes.

>> No.3181172

>>3181165
Maybe PAL does something different, but from what I understand the 240p mode works by offsetting the two fields of a TV image slightly. So instead of alternating lines to produce a 480i picture, you end up with half the lines completely unused, and half the lines updated at full 60Hz.
Careful with the C64. I can only talk about DOS, but stuff like the 320x200 mode in DOS is not rendered at 200 lines, but 400, and working with the display's timing to produce its resolution. As such it either completely avoids scanlines, or has different looking scanlines, with each pixel line being two scanlines tall. If the C64 does something similar, then you don't have the gaps typical for 240p and hence no or very reduced scanlines.

>> No.3181243

>>3181142
This is it, you're getting a lot more distortion with vinyl and CRT but it's a more pleasant distortion In the record player the distortion comes from the magnetic pickup head/op amps and transistors in the pre-amp and power amp/RIAA eq and tone controls. In the CRT from the electron gun, the magnetic fields used to deflect, the amplifiers and the phosphor pixels themselves.

If you look at the VST audio plugin scene, and DSP in general, it's starting to catch up with what analog gear has been doing for 60 years. It's only recently people are able to model guitar pedals to a decent standard which is interesting seeing as in the real world the pedals have a couple of twenty cent transistors/op amps/diodes doing the bulk of the actual distortion. The audio is oversampled, then resampled back down to avoid aliasing that can happen with higher frequencies, and a great deal of math is done per sample

I think some kind of CRT emulation is a good path to go down, but it needs to get to a point where it's less of a gimmick and more being looked at as a pleasing upscaling method
I saw some post on here where a shader was individually modelling the phosphors for each color and i think this is a pretty good sign. Adding bogus scanlines and curving the screen is really low effort and embarrassing and it's why CRT emulation is a joke. The pleasing elements of a CRT as I see it are the bleed of the phosphors, the natural non-linearity and decay of the phosphor after it has been hit, and the way it's not just a single pixel, it's that mix of three colours next to eachother. To model this kind of thing you need screens running at higher frequencies (or at least oversampling to better simulate what happens to the phosphors within each 60hz frame), higher resolutions (or at least rendering in higher resolutions and downscaling), and the graphical horsepower to do it all without inducing extra lag

>> No.3181262

>>3181243
>I saw some post on here where a shader was individually modelling the phosphors for each color and i think this is a pretty good sign
It's the inevitable goal, but it relies on extremely high resolution of the display. Until the tech is there, approximating the rest of the beam and color is good enough. Most of the things you mentioned after the silly curves thing (I agree with you, it's dumb), is stuff that can be done even when not emulating individual phosphors

>the graphical horsepower to do it all without inducing extra lag
You want dedicated hardware for that. A fixed IC pipeline, that's doing almost the whole screen in parallel. No programmable shaders. Highly custom hardware, but worthwhile.

>> No.3181306

>>3181172
the difference between 480i and 240p is simply an integer or fractional ratio between horizontal and vertical sync.
240p would be either be 262:1 or 263:1; 480i is 262.5:1
that extra half a lines worth of time is what pushes each field half a line out of alignment each refresh.

in theory you could drive a sdtv at 720i@20Hz using a 3 field setup by using .333 or .666. i believe some euro panasonic hdtvs actually do this to get 833i@75Hz

>> No.3181313

>>3179067
I don't own any vinyls or CRT but I can tell you that what I have is sure as fuck not ideal for retro games.

>> No.3181321

>>3181306
>the difference between 480i and 240p is simply an integer or fractional ratio between horizontal and vertical sync.
That's what I meant but could not express, thanks.

>> No.3181382

> Playing retro games on CRT is like listening to music on vinyl
Can we please stop with this analogy? Playing retro games on CRT is more like playing sheet music on an actual piano

>> No.3181390

>>3181382
>CRTfanboy
CRTs died for a reason. They're not very good displays.

>> No.3181393

>>3181382
That's a sheet analogy, and you know it

>> No.3181394

>>3181393
ignore them, they're just sheetposting

>> No.3182320

>>3179416
>shout at people on the internet who do it differently
>>3179421
>with what setup?
Found the circlejerking autist

>> No.3182327

>>3181382
But it is. You guys even use the same arguments
>but it's what the artist intended!
>the color and shape distortion add to the quality!

>> No.3182336

>>3179356
I play competitive Tetris grand master on a Panasonic plasma TV. Your argument is ridiculous and moot

>> No.3182383

>>3179062
You're a fucking idiot. Your TV has an internal scaler that's much worse than an external scaler.

>> No.3182434
File: 109 KB, 639x471, 1230528395875.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3182434

>mfw playing genesis games at 4k 60fps

Emulation always wins. When will you cartbabbies ever learn?

>> No.3182534

>>3179513
Regardless of whether or not the point that >>3179356 brought up is worth discussing, would you happen to have a game that does it right? I've grown quite sick of Super Hang-On at this point.

>> No.3182597

>>3179421
Streets of Rage 2 on emulated through a Sega Genesis emulator on a PS2 emulator on my 55 inch plasma TV with keyboard controls.

>> No.3182598

>>3182597
>emulated through a Sega Genesis emulator on a PS2 emulator
is the PS2 emulated or hardware? Your statement is a bit confusing there

>> No.3182602

>>3182598
I'm emulating an emulator through an emulator.

>> No.3182614

>>3182602
how's the performance, and what's the physical machine at the end?

>> No.3182618
File: 910 KB, 300x169, 1439351929276.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3182618

>>3182614
I was just trying to think of the most ridiculous setup as a joke.

Sorry.

>> No.3182627

>>3182618
I got called a cyclejerking autist a few posts up, when all I was interested in was the last game people actually played, and with what means. For me it was a test run of DOA on a Model 2 emulator, LCD and with a stick (to test the stick), last thursday. Only reason I asked is that indeed a lot of people seem to post, and few seem to play. I play OutRun through mame on a 360 pad and the same LCD and feel no remorse. Why should I? I am playing, and I'm playing games I enjoy, all that matters. The rest is just people desperate to be offended, projecting

>> No.3184652

>>3179038
Looks fine to me. I can't imagine a CRT would look any better. That's why I don't waste my money on original consoles. I get a much better picture on my retron and it still allows me to use original carts as the developers intended.

>> No.3184676

>>3179067
Actually it's more like the equivalent of 30 year olds saying FLAC has better quality than 32kbps MP3s and then fifteen year olds saying nope, 32kbps sound perfect.

>> No.3184692

It's not a big deal what you play on but there's definitely some games that I've played that look shitty on an HDTV as opposed to a CRT. I have fuckin three TVs in my gaming room and flip flop around them, and I'd definitely not want to play some on the HD. It's up to you though, I ain't gonna yell at you, just my preference.

>> No.3184694

>>3184676
To be honest they do sound the same.

>> No.3184756

>>3179871
This. When people say vinyl sounds better they really mean it has more dynamic volume. It's not that vinyl is objectively superior to digital, but sound engineers can't go full retard and compress the music on vinyl due to physical limitations of the medium. So blame the sound engineers and producers, not the digital format.

>> No.3184762

>>3184694
Hearing the difference now isn't the reason to encode to FLAC. FLAC uses lossless compression, while MP3 is 'lossy'. What this means is that for each year the MP3 sits on your hard drive, it will lose roughly 12kbps, assuming you have SATA - it's about 15kbps on IDE, but only 7kbps on SCSI, due to rotational velocidensity. You don't want to know how much worse it is on CD-ROM or other optical media.
I started collecting MP3s in about 2001, and if I try to play any of the tracks I downloaded back then, even the stuff I grabbed at 320kbps, they just sound like crap. The bass is terrible, the midrange...well don't get me started. Some of those albums have degraded down to 32 or even 16kbps. FLAC rips from the same period still sound great, even if they weren't stored correctly, in a cool, dry place. Seriously, stick to FLAC, you may not be able to hear the difference now, but in a year or two, you'll be glad you did.

>> No.3184936

>>3179095
You post on a public forum, be ready to take it up the ass. Jesus. Is criticism so alien?

>> No.3184948

>>3184762
Ooh that was informative. Thanks.

>> No.3184950

>>3179062
i get input lag with a flatscreen so i preffer CRT
i think its the scaling that causes it

>> No.3184958

>>3179038
on a CRT that game looks like a game instead of a badly compressed jpeg

>> No.3184960
File: 459 KB, 1600x1200, DSCN0463.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
3184960

>>3179619
yfw

>> No.3184967

>>3184948
It's a /mu/ copypasta. It exaggerates but for long term storage lossless is better for lossy.

>> No.3184983

>>3184948
Literally none of that is true. Mp3 bitrate dies not degrade over time. It stays the same. Even proclaimed professionals or audiophiles can't hear the difference between 192 and flac in double blind tests.

>> No.3185016

>>3184983
I agree I don't think MP3's degrade.

RE: FLAC. If you can't tell a difference, that's GREAT. You save a ton of hard drive space and hassle getting music. With a decent setup and good ears you can tell though. One of my teachers in college could spot an MP3 almost immediately on a decent system in a shitty room. We did a blinded test with several tracks and all of us could tell when he pointed out what to listen for.

I probably can't tell the difference anymore because I fucked my hearing at too many shows though.

>>3184960
fuck

>> No.3185026

>>3179038
I play on a flat screen and I'm sure a lot of /vr/ does
Though most people usually fuck up and replace flat screen for flat panel which aren't mutually exclusive

>> No.3185039

>>3184983
It's for archival purposes. If you need to store your master then you should do it in FLAC or similar file types. Compare it to magnetic tape, most average people would never need to store movies or data on tape but you'll know if you need it.

>> No.3185602

>>3185039
Oh certainly. My music is all in flac, but I know there's no practical difference in 192bit mp3 or lossless. So on my phone or laptop it's mp3. On my external and Google drive it's flac. I will say for a lot of shoegazing or drone music there is a very noticeable difference simply because the music is so heavy a lot of the time.

>> No.3186050

>>3185602
>no practical difference in 192bit mp3 or lossless
until you transcode