/vr/ - Retro Games

Do games that have on-board hardware count?

Because I guarantee every NES game that will appear in this thread will be assisted by an MMC chip.

>>3103103
Does pic related count? The cart did do the heavy lifting though.

>>3103103
did DKC really push the hardware or just the programming and resources of the devoloper. iirc all the 3d was pre-rendered in that game and it plays smooth with no slow down. my copy of u.n. squadron will slow down the snes considerably though.

>>3103115
"Rare’s development teams employed cutting edge SGI hardware to render all their graphical work in quality, ray-traced 3D. They ported those pre-rendered 3D stills to the SNES as 2D sprites and background tiles and created a game that was not only beautiful but beautifully animated. By working in 3D they were able to make sure all the animations were fluid and consistent and the SNES’s color palette was utilized excellently to keep that 3D sheen. It was convincing enough that many a fan has been fooled into thinking the SNES really could to SGI-quality 3D in real-time."
Personally, I think it's up to you. Though I think OP is more looking for your example.
N64 had a asload of games that have framerate issues.

>>3103115
I don't think DKC really did anything exceptional with the SNES hardware itself. It sure looked pretty though.

>>3103103
DKC did not push the SNES to it's limits. Not even close.

A poster child for this kinda shit is Recca for NES
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Kfr-QFudqk

>>3103119
>>3103125
my thoughts as well it pushed what could be devoloped within the limits of the hardware but didn't push the hardware itself. rum drunk not sure if still coherent

>>3103106
Pretty much every NES game released past the original Super Mario Brothers uses an MMC chip of some description. Going into Famicom titles and unlicensed games, then there's a whole slew of different on-cartridge expansion chips that were employed.

>>3103129
SNES poster child is Yoshi's Island. It pushed the PPU to it's limits by using every hardware feature in creative ways, although the engine itself ran on the SuperFX. Then again, that makes YI even more interesting because it was pretty much the farthest the hardware was ever taken.

>>3103137
It may just be me, but Mario lost Levels gets really laggy at times

>>3103129
now that looks lile its pushing it. smooth but I can see use of all avalible display modes, dithering, clever offset and blanking to work around sprite clipping and sprites per line limitations. good example

Street Fighter Alpha 2 for Super Nintendo.

horrible loading times but still impressive that they managed to cram the game into a snes cartridge.

Red Zone
Batman & Robin
Toy Story
Alien Soldier
Panarama Cotton
Vectormans
Star Cruiser
Ranger-x
Thunder Force iv

These are good examples because they don't even use the Expansion Pak let alone any extra chips in the cartridge.

World Driver Championship https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSNsUFAf1po - great lighting effects, lots and lots of polygons, little to no slowdown

Conker's Bad Fur Day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5MUd9B1Rok - incredible multi-sourced colored lighting, actually really good shadows, sophisticated particle effects, etc

>>3103217
>World Driver Championship

all that fog, terrible draw distances. n64 a shit

>>3103232
>being so bottom befuddled as to imagine non-existent fog

>>3103240
>thinking a game that looks like ps1 shovelware is any good

I'm delusional one.mmmhmm

https://youtu.be/gRcedAP2_t4

>>3103129

How have I never come across this game? The graphics are very impressive and the sound design is top notch.

>>3103129
>longplay
>doesn't do all 7 stages
lol

>>3103103
pic unrelated, it's a standard sidescroller. The only difference is how the sprites and tiles are produced, which happens in production, got nothing to do with the machine it's running on

>>3103339
no shit Sherlock, read the thread

>>3103347
no u

>>3103352
Oh, a master baiter I see. Well let me tell you I won't whack off to you, jack off. So why don't you fuck off you wanker.

>>3103363
and yet, you respond, little fish; and you're so angry, oh so angry

>>3103369
Oh, so that's how your game works, eh? Well then perhaps we can settle this with our fists. Don't worry, this won't hurt a bit. It's actually quite nice once you pop the cherry. Let me get your phone number, and we can schedule a date. Don't worry, I'm not looking for commitment, just a promise.

>>3103103
One of the first 3 Crash Bandicoot games.
Can't remember which one though.
Maybe all 3.

>>3103384
ah, there's the crashtard. Missed you

>>3103384
Crash has aged like Swiss cheese up my ass. it's still fun, but visually resembles Swiss up my ass.
>captcha: click the tricycles

Even though the framerate isn't good, you have to admit it looks awesome. There's so much attention to detail in every part of the game from animations, AI, etc. It pushed the console to the limit - and beyond the limit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcP4Q8Yp0FY

>>3103414
Framerate wasn't really an issue at the time. Not like it would be now, at least.

Frogger on the Atari 2600, the Starpath version.

>>3103339

That's not completely true. The game had a lot of background effects that would still be impressive even if the game wasn't pre-rendered.

>>3103391
>le ps1 graphics are bad
>you actually complain about a game that has held up graphically the most on a ps1

>>3103441
I still don't understand how they did this shit.

>>3103417
>Framerate wasn't really an issue at the time

That would definitely be true in 1997 with Goldeneye where the opportunity to play a James Bond FPS in motherfucking 3D on a $200 machine was incredible on its own. But by year 2000 you could already buy motherboards with Intel intergrated graphics more powerful than the N64.

>Not like it would be now, at least.

I do agree with this though. I hate this trend on /vr/ where we can't just let retro games be retro games.

I don't remember the name but there was a Genesis game my bro brought home one time that absolutely blew us away with the grafx. It was a platformer with guns and had fairly straightforward levels, but the attention to detail in the animation was something we'd only seen in games like super metroid and metal slug.
I think it was Thunder something or something thunder. It was about a dude who drove a badass car and was a cop or something. Shit, I wish I could remember.

Anyway I don't know how far it really pushed the genesis hardware but it was mighty impressive from sheer aesthetic point of view.

>>3103557
Ranger X?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmkyHnh-lWM

>>3103460
The background is actually a normal background like any other. The key to the special effect is that the SNES hardware allows programmers to set background scroll coordinates on a per scanline basis. The background scrolling coordinates in DKC2 are just set in a creative way. This effect uses the hardware in the same way a, say, wavy background uses the hardware. The technique is called esoterically by Nintendo Horzontal Direct Memory Access or HDMA.

>>3103232
>what are my eyes for anyway?

>>3103567
That's not it, but that looks pretty good. I'll have to give that one a try.

I thought it was the Thunder Force series but that can't be right. I remember being able to run around on foot shooting dudes.

>>3103103
https://youtu.be/AD1Wa3HpCy4

Unreal, a rail shooter on the Amiga. It's not really good, but it's impressive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EPVzTaK8bYY

Katakis-3D, an unreleased rail shooter on the Game Boy Color.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb886SUrw7U

Falsion and every other rail shooter on the Famicom/NES.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4RON5j77YY

Compare this to a normal Famicom cartridge.

>>3103441
I count three or so layers and one use of HDMA to do the "platform" and the water. What else?

>>3103567
>esoterically
The name is kind of inevitable, though the "horizontal" is incomplete.
It's Horizontal Blank Direct Memory Access.
Horizontal Blank refers to a brief waiting period between individual scanlines when drawing the image on screen. That's not Nintendo's term for it, that's a generally accepted term for raster output. In the case of the SNES the HBlank leads to an interrupt. A special CPU instruction that halts all current execution, and instead runs a preset piece of code. Note that "special" only means it's not a normal arithmetic, logic or load function. It's common across many platforms, console and otherwise. So, the H in HDMA just means "gets triggered after every scanline".
Remains only DMA. That too, is a standard term in computing. Normally, memory access happens through the CPU, via load and store operations. When you got a lot of data to move, that means your CPU is very busy doing something annoyingly repetitive, even though you have better tasks for it. The D, Direct, in DMA, means that there's a mechanism that allows to access the memory without having to go through the CPU. In particular, to perform copy operations without burdening the CPU. Instead a small coprocessor, the DMA controller, takes care of all that work. The only thing the CPU has to do is tell the DMA the address from where to copy, the address to copy to, and the number of bytes to copy. A normal DMA (there are DMAs outside of HDMA) would be triggered manually after this config. HDMA gets triggered through the aforementioned interrupt.
So there you have it, HDMA is practically the only name you could give such a function, because of what it does.

In case someone wonders how memory copying is relevant for these wobbly background effects: The position of the background layer is, like almost everything else, declared as a value in a special memory location.

>>3104467
>Horizontal Blank Direct Memory Access
Might even go for Horizontal blank interrupt Direct Memory Access

>>3103103
>pre-rendered graphics
>pushing system to the limits
nope.avi

>>3103391
How do you know that swiss cheese ages worse when up your ass?

>>3103103
Pic not related. This is just an onlrdinary 2D sprite game. It's not doing anything technically impressive.

Ico... on the PS1!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANmY2QtZnIM

>>3103557
A genesis platformer with shooting and the word "Thunder" in the title... Is it one of the Rolling Thunder games? I think only 2 and 3 came out on the Genesis.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8twf5Ug7o8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVFDvZp86ic

Can't say they're known for pushing the hardware's limits, but they look pretty fun.

>>3107473
Those look similar to the style but isn't quite what I'm remembering. This could just be a really bad case of nostalgia glasses or I could be totally wrong about the platform. My bro borrowed it from a friend and took it back the next day so my time with is was short.
Oh well, I'll keep looking.

Exile for the BBC Micro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exile_(1988_video_game)

>Exile's game physics engine qualifies it to be the first game to have a complete Newtonian motion model. At the time of its release it was considered to push the boundaries of what was possible on home computers, particularly on the 8-bit platforms.

> Exile permits a degree of nonlinear gameplay - challenges may be overcome in a number of possible orders and not all events have to be completed.

>The artificial intelligence features innovative routines such as creatures demonstrating awareness of nearby noises, line-of-sight vision through the divaricate caves and tunnels, and memory of where the player was last seen, etc.

>Exile contains a physics model with gravity, inertia, mass, explosions, shockwaves, water, earth, wind, and fire. The game engine simulates all three of Newton's laws of motion, with many puzzles and gameplay elements emerging from a few physical principles. For example, the player may experience difficulty when attempting to lift a heavy boulder across a windy shaft with a jet pack, or of trying to keep a glass of water from spilling while being pushed around by a pestering bird.

>>3103269
that's an emulator you fucking retard.

>>3103103
kirby's adventure on NES

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BTjPwQlipGY

Pretty much anything made by Rare on the SNES and N64, they knew how to take advantage of the hardware better than any developer even nintendo themselves.

Most games with the expansion pak maybe but thats additional hardware and not the standard system a lot of games that supported it looked great in their hi res modes but had awful frame rates. Turok 2 for example looks great in hi res mode even on a newer TV but as I said runs bad would love to try playing the PC port because it does not have the frame rate issues.


One I do not see mentioned is Star wars Rogue Squadron. I'm not sure if it would fall under clever programming, utilizing the hardware well or pushing the system. I'm talking about the voice acting in particular. Factor 5 developed an audio codec and compression system that used the N64's main processor instead of the co processor used for video and audio normally. Since it was programmed well it was not resource intensive and it saved a lot on storage space. This is why Rogue Squadron has noticeably more and higher quality voice acting than nearly any other game on the system. It's been a few years but I remember every mission having a lot of voice acting and every mission also had its own individually voiced briefing which was rare on the system.

>>3103131
This.

It really showed what could be done if you had enough money. The SGI system they used to develop DKC was cutting edge at the time and cost around 750,000 dollars in 1993 not sure what it would have been in brit bucks. It really came down to developers did not have nearly a million dollars to spend on such expensive hardware.

Mr Gimmick on the NES/Famicom.

If I recall it only used a mapper for additional audio channels which gives it easily some of if not the best music on the system.

It also had fantastic graphics it had a lot of small attention to detail just not seen on the system.

>>3108505
Correct answer. Also the game was filled the RAM entirely; the BBC video chip has the ability for you to define custom resolutions -- this was used to reduce the amount of memory used for the screen. Even then, the screen border showed garabge -- game code & data that had nowhere else to fit.

Exile is the very definition of pushing hardware to the boundaries

>>3108720
>Pretty much anything made by Rare
getting so tired of that mindless hype posting

>>3108721
pixel shaders before pixel shaders were even a thing.
That screenshot has a misleading resolution though

>>3103469
I remember using the framerate slowdowns to my advantage, you could always tell if there was going to be a couple of villains behind sliding doors so you could prep yourself or duck and hide.

>>3108771
that sounds like terrible code. You don't use sprites until you absolutely have to. You certainly don't hide them behind anything

>>3108792
True for /vr/ consoles, but with modern GPUs it's often faster to just throw everything at the GPU and accept high overdraw instead of wasting CPU time trying to reduce it.

>>3108802
that's two very different mechanisms and architectures

>>3108771
>>3108792
Goldeneye and Perfect Dark use a 3D portal engine, so the enemies don't get drawn until you attempt to open a door. If there are a lot of enemies behind the door, the framerate will go down while the door is sliding open.

>>3108809
that makes more sense, thanks for the clarification

does wetrix count? the water was nuts in that for the time

>>3108815
There's more detail about it here if you're interested.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal_rendering

Thief used the same kind of 3D engine.

>>3108816
No, because the pixel-perfect precision that game demands makes it a shitty game.

>>3108823
I'm well aware of what a portal engine is. You'll notice it's nothing unusual either.

>>3108829
The portal engine itself isn't something that pushes a console, no. But it does explain the way that some games work.

>>3108841
>The portal engine
portals are just a mechanism

>that pushes a console
The job of portals is the opposite of pushing, culling stuff that's not having an effect on the visuals

>explain the way that some games work
same way that an article about pixel shaders explains how games work, i.e. not at all

>>3108850
Not sure if you're just trying to be deliberately pedantic here but...

The most important element of a 3D is how visibility is handled, it literally defines the whole engine. So a game engine that uses the mechanism of portals is appropriate to call a "portal 3D engine", much like Quake engine can be called a "BSP 3D engine".

>The job of portals is the opposite of pushing, culling stuff that's not having an effect on the visuals
Sure, but I was implying that certain culling techniques can put an undue stress ("pushing") on the CPU even if the ultimate result is to lighten the load on rasterization.

>same way that an article about pixel shaders explains how games work, i.e. not at all
But it does help explain how certain graphical effects can be achieved. A person who reads an article on pixel shading may be then able to recognize where pixel shaders have been used in a particular game based on that understanding.

>>3108858
>The most important element of a 3D is how visibility is handled
I thought you're talking about games? It's engine time now?

>it does help explain how certain graphical effects can be achieved
The job of portals is to be invisible, they do not cause any change to the visuals.

Also, I get the feeling you're trying to sell portals as something awesome, special or cool, when it's about as awesome as using triangles. And you're needlessly shitting around on a simple passing remark. So, no. I am not interested. I am starting to get pissed off, and I blame you. Keep your tech bullshit to yourself.

>where pixel shaders have been used
That would be everywhere, since pixel shaders existed

>>3108863
>Also, I get the feeling you're trying to sell portals as something awesome, special or cool

But I'm not. I was just trying to explain why you get slowdown while opening a door with portal based visibility testing.

>>3103103
Throwing some fucking JPEGs into a game does not push a console to its limits. Did Mortal Kombat push the limits of the SNES/Genesis too? DKC is fucking trash, please stop with this meme.

>>3103430
woah, I've never seen that version. That is impressive.

>>3108929
>DKC is fucking trash, please stop with this meme.
Careful with the edge brah

>>3108940
I'm not even being edgy, it's just a bad game and a worse series. It blows my mind how much people who actually like /vr/ claim to enjoy these games and Rare games in general.

>>3108929
It's either the best thing ever or total fucking trash with you guys. Can't you just settle at 5/10 it's mediocre?

>>3108948

Really? It blows your mind that people have different opinions and tastes than you?

Boy I sure you have a wild time out there in the real world.

>>3108951
I play a lot of 'mediocre' games, I even enjoy some games for their flaws, DKC is just a bad game.

>>3108952
No, the only games I actually take a hard-line with are the DKC series. They aren't good.

>Boy I sure you have a wild time out there in the real world.

>>3108980

Did your stepdad rape you while wearing a DKC shirt when you were a kid?

>>3108984
The platforming is boring and repetitive (frequently turning into a shit-tier rhythm game where all you're doing is waiting for the right timing), and the graphics are extremely bad because they throw away the main advantage of pixel art (higher perceived resolution).

>>3109004
>because they throw away the main advantage of pixel art (higher perceived resolution)
Can you explain that one a bit?

>>3109004
>frequently turning into a shit-tier rhythm game

Saying "shit-tier" doesn't automatically make your argument any more valid.

>the graphics are extremely bad because they throw away the main advantage of pixel art (higher perceived resolution).

I just think you're unable to appreciate different styles. I like traditional pixel art like in, say, Vampire Savior, but I also think pic related looks very pretty.

>>3109004
Thx for stepping in anon, it's appreciated.

Frequent glitches aside, it's crazy what they crammed into the C64 versions of the Turrican games.

>>3109004
How does it feel to be a disgusting cancer with no idea about videogames?

>>3109151
How does it feel to be unpopular at your high school? Cool kids know that DKC is for babbies.

>>3109219
Don't worry pal, there's a place for you reserved on /v/.

>>3109338
>pal
ntsc is better

>>3104467
>>3104470
>>3104458

It's funny how Nintendo had to put a special name on this technique, that was a standard practice in every arcade game and derived hardware since the 80s. fucking Master System had it.

>>3109350
>special name on this technique
What special name? HBlank Interrupt? That's used outside of Nintendo. DMA? That's used outside of consoles and arcade machines even. HDMA is just a shorthand, not some magic name like Blast Processing

>>3109338
What's /v/? Do they hate Donkey Kong Country there?

>>3103103
fantasy zone 2 on the system 16 hardware was pretty demanding from what I hear.

>>3109454
>What's /v/?
you're either a newfag, a simpleton, baiting, or legitemetly haven't been on the video games board on 4chan. one of those.

>>3109004
And it's still the best or 2nd best platformer the west has ever shat out

>>3109004
Agreed, everyone knows it uses cheap level design to pad out the game along with collectathon levels that don't actually affect gameplay once you realize theres no point in looking for any of the secrets because they don't unlock anything.

>>3109454
It's a smudgy shit pile

>>3109508
I'll take options 3 and 4. I frequent 4 boards, /v/ isn't one of them.

>>3103167
What the hell are those 2 "orb" things on the big guy's chest?!

>>3109790
hueg beads collar

>>3109790
His bewbs.

>>3109790
Those things vary in proportion like that.

>>3109795
Right. I thought he had cancer.

Crash Bandicoot is mandatory in these threads.

Crash Bandicoot 2 being the best looking, but they kept pushing the hardware further all the way with Crash 3 and CTR.

>>3109807
those are the biggest anal beads I've ever seen.

>>3103391
What are you even trying to say?

>>3110947
probably some millenial fool from /v/.

Alien Soldier
Gunstar Heroes
Contra Hardcorps
Metal Slug 3
Radiant Silvergun
SFA 3 (Saturn port i guess the PS1 too)
Ridge Racer Type 4
Lagrange Point
Crisis Force
I guess Rondo of Blood
Sapphire for the PC Engine
Recca
Gimmick
KOF 2003
Garou MoTW

>>3110828
>Crash Bandicoot

No.

>>3110828
they're mandatory in the sense that there's always one idiot bringing them up, no matter how much the rest doesn't care

>>3103103
Does X count?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pbtmBQIKTh8

>>3109004
>and the graphics are extremely bad because they throw away the main advantage of pixel art (higher perceived resolution).

Underage faggot detected.

>>3111515
Don't mistake me for some indiefag, I no pixel art purist. But the fact remains that 256x224 is extremely low resolution, and if you're going to display something acceptable on it you need every advantage you can get. Pre-rendered only works with higher resolution (eg. Diablo).

>>3108505
>>3108732
I just looked this up. This game is fucking absurd.

>>3108720
>Rare
SNES, no. N64 for Conker and PD maybe.
>Factor 5
Yes, absolutely.