/vr/ - Retro Games

>1 board games
>good

Australia-kun, you really need to leave this place and seek for professional help.

Why does this even need an explanation?

>go into computer store c. 1988
>see Amiga on display
>"Aiyyo, can this thing run Lotus 123?"
>"Nope."
>"Oh. Nevermind."

>>3095174
Amiga Castlevania > NES Castlevania

Deal with it.

Different tastes I suppose, enjoy your $6 a gallon gasoline, pollution and congestion charges, traffic cams everywhere and aspiring to own a 1.0L diesel shitbox since its all you can afford to insure.

After 1985, nothing here mattered except IBM compatibles except for the token number of art hipsters with Macs. The video game crash obliterated almost all non-IBM PC architectures.

I think they sold about 800,000 total Amigas in North America. All of the larger game devs such as Origin and Microprose supported them though a lot of Amiga games (especially arcade ports) were developed in Europe and imported over here.

Also Amiga dropped out of relevance in NA after 1990 and we never really did get to see the 32-bit models.

Because consoles never really took off in Europe until the PlayStation, if even that, so computers were the gaming platforms of choice. Compounding this was the lack of office-orientated IBM clones so computers like the Amiga and ST which has relatively good graphics could shine brighter.

>>3095203
>Because consoles never really took off in Europe until the PlayStation, if even that, so computers were the gaming platforms of choice. Compounding this was the lack of office-orientated IBM clones so computers like the Amiga and ST which has relatively good graphics could shine brighter.

Errors!

Firstly, consoles were definitely a thing in Europe since the late 80s however pre-PS1 era was completely dominated by Sega. Much like America, kids mostly played console games while computer gamers were 14 and up.

Also yes Europe very much did have IBM clones but they were almost entirely for business use and nobody had them at home until almost the Windows 9x era.

> superiourity

OP needs to learn how to spell.

>>3095182

I can deal with any of your delusional opinions, at this point nothing coming from you surprises me anymore.

But really, man, you should seek help.

Technology moved slower in Europe as well; 8-bit computers were relevant into the early 90s when they were largely replaced by 16-bit machines in the US after 1984.

Does anyone remember when clerks would kick children out of computer stores?

They hated children looking at the software.

>>3095238
Well, I mean the C64/128 was relevant here to up to 89-90. The Apple II was mostly relegated to the school market by the late 80s and still supported by software devs although not as much.

>Were you kids too busy sucking Nintendo dick to notice the superiourity of computers?
>superiourity
The Amiga had about maybe two dozen games worth playing, and even then they pale in compassion to what their Japanese contemporaries offered on the X68000 and FM Towns and even most consoles of the day.

>>3095182
>Amiga Castlevania > NES Castlevania
Holy fuck, sides are gone

>>3095170
Nobody was going to buy their kid a $1300 computer to play games on when they could spend $100 on a NES.

>>3095328
The fuck games did those Jap computers have that were worth playing? Dating sims are fucking shit, faggot.

>>3096197
What about the Amiga 500?

>>3096206
thank you for your gracious concession, anon.

>>3095182
top kek

>>3095170
It's well known fact that US childs were more retarded and less creative than European ones in 80's. They were also much more conditionned and brainwashed by TV ads and "car sellers" marketting techniques.

Just look who those kids (who are now adults) are choosing for president.

>>3096287

To be honest both US and UK kids were retarded as fuck, add to that Australian kids who were probably the most retarded of all.

Europe is too diverse anyway, some countries like France, Switzerland or Italy produced good people.

PC gaming always sucked though outside of 2 or 3 very specific genres, arcades and consoles is where it's at.

>>3095182
>>3096206
>Amiga Castlevania
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utFlAX9RJQM

>x68000 Castlevania
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FfbfTM6SoPI

Cannon Fodder
Sensible Soccer
Lemmings
Another World
Flashback
Speedball 2
IK+
Alien Breed
Syndicate
Worms


What a time to be alive back then

>>3096292
>France
>good people
Top kek

>>3096302
>Amiga Castlevania

>>3095182
The title music is good.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsAwiMx-IFw

>>3096495

Not bad, sounds like music you'd hear on TV documentals from the 90s, but it doesn't sounds like Castlevania.

>>3096287
>Just look who those kids (who are now adults) are choosing for president

I didn't vote for the Kenyan, dude. You can't pin that one on me.

>>3096206
Couple of console ports, Wizardry, and dating sims. That's about it.

>>3096302
That x68000 version of Castlevania looks and sounds pretty good. Are the controls also comparable to the arcade or NES version?

>>3096561
I would have guess so, what are you expecting from a nation where 50% of people are illiterate rednecks.

>>3095170
Literally the most retarded post I have ever read.

What's the point of a computer NASA-tier (not saying the Amiga is) if it has no fucking decent games and the ones it has are inferior to the version of a $100 dollar console because the programmers didn't know what to do with it.

Get fucked hipster.

It's just as well since 85% of Amiga software is for the 500/1200, not the 32-bit models.

>>3095226
That's the correct British spelling, Ameriburger. American "English" is cancre.

>>3096612
>What's the point of a computer NASA-tier (not saying the Amiga is) if it has no fucking decent games and the ones it has are inferior to the version of a $100 dollar console because the programmers didn't know what to do with it.

Go ask a Mac owner.

The US didn't really have the demo/music scene like Yurop.

>>3096740

And Europe/Australia didn't have an arcade scene like US and Japan did

>>3096746
However, most of the arcade ports on C64/Amiga were developed in Europe and converted to disk/NTSC for the American market.

>>3096771
>arcade ports on C64/Amiga

Trash

>>3096807
If you saw the Famicom ports of Commando and 1942 and then the C64 ports, you wouldn't say that.

>>3096771
I think it had to do with the video game crash being the reason for that. Many devs went under in 84-85 and the ones who were still left such as Sierra and Microprose did the more traditional computer game genres and not arcade stuff.

>>3096835

I did, all these ports are very unfaithful to the originals, the screen is cramped, etc.
The Famicom ports of these games are not the best thing ever, but I at least feel like I'm playing a console ports of the arcade games. The C64 versions are just a bizarre curiosity made in the west.

>>3096771
Disclaimer: I mean arcade ports from >1985. The early C64 arcade ports like Pac-Man and Donkey Kong of course were US-developed.

>>3096847
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTTR6U2a9dg

Come on, this is just bad.

>choppy
>very slow scrolling
>terrible sound (those nonstop beeps? the hell?)

Compare the C64 port.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPaDqp9mKq4

>nice, smooth animation
>good framerate
>actually has the music from the arcade game

>>3095182

>>3096861

The music is the only thing I'll give it, SID goodness, but otherwise I think it's a terrible port. Sorry, can't get over that awfully cramped, cropped screen.
Scrolling might be smoother, but I'll take the more screen space on the Famicom version which actually allow the enemies to behave like the arcade game.

Also the C64 version is graphically too barren. Doesn't even have any detail on the water or grass areas.

At the same time, there's C64 ports that are really bad compared to the NES.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mcnZ35Uv4fM

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHH43AYxPa0

>>3096873
The Commodore had a really nice palette for kid games.

NES Commando. This port is better than 1942 although the sound is eh and the graphics also look pretty bland.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENSwJx15vq0

C64 Commando. Better framerate and also much better sound. I also find the color palette more tasteful.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDAhixO2t5w

>>3096876
>The Commodore had a really nice palette for kid games

It's a very 80s palette. Lots of bright pastels.

Bubble Bobble is one game where the C64 port really comes up short especially the cheese-grater music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsMvGCiUtyc

NES version has music that's much gentler and easier on the ears, also the framerate is better.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O49OgQ_kogw

>>3096881
Of if you want, I can also show you the worst Commando port. Yuck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5h1smUA4lQ

>>3096882
It's beautiful. Shame about the load times.

Because American investors were scared of videogames after 1983 crash, which basically never happened in Europe.

So while Europe was still making videogames just like before, game development in the US became underfunded and remained that way until the IBM PC and MS-DOS had come to unqestionably dominate the home computer market.

>>3096916
Sort of yes, sort of no.

>>3096838

>>3096893
Not just that but the NES has something like 20 extra levels and an expanded ending. You can't beat a port made by the devs themselves.

>>3096932
>Not just that but the NES has something like 20 extra levels and an expanded ending
Was that in the arcade game or is it unique to the NES port.
>You can't beat a port made by the devs themselves
'Cept for that shitty Famicom Ms. Pac-Man.

1942 is a slightly funny game.

>Jap dev makes game where you're an American pilot shooting down Zeros in WWII

You fucking Europeans should fuck off with your shitty shovelware machines.

Reminds me of the people who unironically think Turrican 3 is better than Mega Turrican.

>>3096916
>until the IBM PC and MS-DOS had come to unqestionably dominate the home computer market.

And even then they remained underfunded, until a few games like Wolfentstein and Doom became extremely popular, and more powerful audio/video hardware became available in the early 90s.

>>3096947
Not really true though, Sierra, Origin, and Microprose had high quality, professionally-made computer games.

>>3096942
There was a Taito game Sky Destroyer which is basically like 1942 (and may have inspired it) where you play the Japanese side.

>>3096951
>interactive fiction
>real game
Pick one.

>>3096946
Ditto their arpeggio fart wave music. And no, Turrican is not better than NES run-and-guns like Mega Man.

>>3096901
I'm not sure why they call this a DOS game since it was on a self-booting disk.

>>3096962
There's a Turrican on NES! And it's pretty good.

>>3096835
Blame Micronics.

>>3096579
Controls feel tight. Even tighter than Castlevania 1, in my opinion. There's a pretty good port for PS1.

>>3096968
It's an impressive game, considering Manfred Trenz made it on his own, but the music is amazingly shit.

>>3096975
Capcom ported Commando themselves while Micronics did 1942 and I think Pony Canyon did Ghosts'N'Goblins (which both suck).

>>3096984
No, Micronics did definitely port GNG.

>>3096984
Ghosts 'N Goblins was Micronics. You can tell because it flickers non fucking stop.

Still a decent port despite that, I'd take it over the shitty computer ports any day.

It's really unfair to judge the NES based on Micronics ports though.

>>3096937
Unique to the NES, the Arcade goes up to level 100 and the NES throws a couple more after that.

The NES Ghostbusters was pretty comically awful too although that wasn't an arcade game.

>>3096993
Well, the C64 port has some pretty cool music but otherwise it's very far from an accurate conversion.

>>3097000
I'd rather have the Ghosts 'N Goblins theme over some random European's music.

That's another thing I heavily dislike about the PC ports of that time. Not only are they always inaccurate approximations, they always put their own unneeded touch on top of it.

>>3097002
>random European
That's Tim Follin. But yeah I agree.

>>3097014
He's from England.

I said random because it genuinely is random in this case and unneeded. Why does Sky Shark need an almost EDM-like soundtrack compared to the original's almost military sounding music?

If it's remixes I don't mind, I like Turbo Outrun's C64 music, at least it's from the original game.

>>3097021
I heard some other anon say in most cases the music was done by free lance artists and completely separate from development, which lead to a lot of techno that didn't fit.

Also Turrican is a shitty fucking game.

Inexcusable europlatformer game design.

The 2nd game fares slightly better.

C64 had the worst port of Galaxian easily.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3mt2FxWuF8

NES port (unfortunately not released in North America) is fantastic and almost arcade-perfect.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXQimYB8sUA

>>3097021
On the other hand, NES Robocop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt2hg1hlRb4

vs C64 Robocop

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbMfCpD8gk4

Totally different music but 100x more badass. This has to be one of my top five SID tunes of all time.

>>3097072
The hell. How do you fuck up something as simple as Galaxian?

C64 Platoon also beats the NES version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNfsY4CnJzA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Un9Wy-iKmp8

>>3097075
At least the NES version has recognizable music.

>>3097093
Platoon is just a bad game overall though.

Unless you like walking around in a jungle and randomly dying. I guess it's a pretty accurate depiction of the Vietnam war.

>>3097082
I was wondering that as well since most ports of Galaxian were quite good even the Atari 2600.

>>3097097
No but I love the funky music.

>>3095182
>amiga super c
>amiga battletoads

>>3097097
>At least the NES version has recognizable music

Perhaps but on the plus the C64 music fits the atmosphere of the game instead of being some random EDM tune.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBqbSEBjZqI
I can't believe the MSX, a computer on par with the colecovision in terms of specs, had a better port of this.

>>3097132
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TB3j8rlQrU

>monochromatic sprites
>bleeper sound
>choppy scrolling

Dude, this is not better than the C64.

>>3097167
It looks, plays and sounds more like the arcade version than the C64 version ever will. Did you see that 2nd stage in the C64 version? The programmer literally gave up and didn't even try to make it look like the arcade original. The later biological stage also looks NOTHING like the arcade version.

Keep in mind you also linked the PAL version, which is unoptimized and has shittier audio.

You can also extend the MSX sound.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yucFVhoY6YA

Again, this is a computer with Colecovision specs and it still has the better adaptation.

>>3097082
Most of those C64 Atarisoft ports were rather lousy. Ms. Pac-Man and Donkey Kong were probably the best although they still have a few annoying problems. Still considering that Galaxian is a much simpler game than Donkey Kong (which was a bitch to recreate on early 80s home systems), it makes you wonder.

>>3095170
>too busy sucking Nintendo dick to notice the superiourity of computers?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wH5FKJ4gpdY

On the other hand, you would literally cry if you saw the IBM port of Platoon.

Guerrilla War (both videos here were recorded from real hardware and not emulation). The C64 port is like "What the hell is this?" tier.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHAjbLhk-QM

NES version looks fantastic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTs-6dgGxqs

>>3097210
Ah yes, Guerrilla War. I understand that in the original Japanese version, you play Fidel Castro and Che Guevara fighting to overthrow Batista, but they changed this in the US version to generic fighters overthrowing nameless dictator because Amerifats might get butthurt.

>>3097223
Burgers are just upset that their shitty puppet dictator in Cuba got overthrown and the Cuban people freed themselves and now have universal health care (that Murka still does not have in 2016).

>>3097167
>>3097179
Also why does the C64 version even have that stupid voice sample?

It wasn't even part of the arcade game. All it does is eating RAM and storage space.

>>3097223
Do you know how active the Cuban-American lobby is? It was even more so in the 80s.

>>3097282
You mean all the cowards who didn't want to help build the revolution and fled to Clapistan?

>>3096302
>Amiga Castlevania
No soundtrack deserves to be put through that level of mutilation.

>>3097292
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zivaZ8sNHZk

C64 Castlevania is rather unpleasant on the ears.

>>3097306
It's unpleasant on the eyes too with that color palette, dear god.

>comparing the NES ports of arcade games made by the original devs who had full access to all design and tech info for the game plus six months to a year to work on it versus home computer ports banged out in a few weeks by one programmer who wrote all the code on paper and manually entered it into the computer with a machine language monitor

>>3097323
The palette isn't that bad considering C64 has less colors to work with than the NES.

>>3097324
And that's the thing, why do Europeans always come here and say their machines are better when all they could crank out was shit approximations like this?

Or games that imitate those Japanese games and they completely miss the point so the games are bad?

>>3097332
Galaxian and that Castlevania port were both done by NTSC devs.

>>3097342
And where was the C64 and Amiga REALLY popular?

>>3097342
>castlevania port
NO, it was not.

>>3097238
Actually, we got it in 2010. :^)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patient_Protection_and_Affordable_Care_Act

>>3097354
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_Games

Nope. Definitely done in the US. In fact I remember on the Lemon 64 forum some Yuropoors were saying how poorly done that Castlevania was and "LOLtypical shoddy NTSC developer".

>>3097367
Ultra Games was not the developer for that port.

Ultra Games was just Konami's secondary publishing arm because the NoA had a wacky rule about a 5 game limit per year for the NES.

>>3097365
>that shite handout to insurance companies
>UHC
Pick one, Clapistan.

>>3097367
>>3097370
Actually I didn't even have to write that.

It says all that in that article.

>>3097367
The credits say that the main programmer was a guy Alan Stewart who was from Scotland (according to Mobygames) so it seems most likely to have been done in Bongland.

>>3095203
>Because consoles never really took off in Europe until the PlayStation

European here old enough to remember that time.
This is somehow true, consoles were a thing (especially the Mega Drive, which was huge) but microcomputers were definitely more common.
This has a simple explanation: in many countries until the late 80s and in some even the early 90s software piracy wasn't illegal, so newsstands were full of cheap c64/ZX cassettes with 6-10 full games inside, later even with the first Amiga floppies.

I actually don't think C64 Castlevania is a bad port if they'd done the music better and hadn't been so lazy that they decided to rotate the sprites rather than use a multiplexer which is why it's so flickery.

>>3097390
Consoles weren't a thing in Europe until the NES era (Europe completely skipped over the Pong/Atari era for some reason).

>>3097342
Come on, Galaxian was done in 1983. The C64 had only been out a year and programmers didn't know the hardware that well, also dev tools were very limited back then.

>>3097403
Not really, there was a florid production of various Pong machines especially in Italy and Germany (and the design of those things are amazing), as well as the Atari doing somewhat good for that time, but surely it was a niche market and not even close to american sales in terms of numbers.

>>3097371
Well, whatever... our taxes go instead to having the highest defense budget of any nation which makes USA the safest country in terms of foreign attacks.

Besides, I'd rather pay for good health care than have the state provide shit health care for me like what you socialist countries have.

>>3097403
There was the Interton VC 4000 in West Germany and the BSS 01 in Eastgermany.

>>3097417
Still doesn't excuse the fact that the Atari 400/800, Apple II, and even Atari 2600 ports were all far better (ok maybe the sound on the Apple version is kind of annoying).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ksYGCX-xJE4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SRliyebNjXY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ttbu0UqBFE

>>3097427
Two of those ports were done in-house so Atari sure better have known how to program their own hardware.

>>3097425
Not once Donald Trump makes Yurop pay for their own defense. ;)

>>3097417
I do agree that most C64 games from the early days (82-84) were pretty crude and generally below the standard of Apple II/Atari 8-bit stuff since those computers were a couple years older and programmers had more experience with them. C64 really didn't come into its own into the NES era.

>>3097370
>because the NoA had a wacky rule about a 5 game limit per year for the NES

This was done to prevent the flood of shovelware that caused the North American video game crash which killed many game companies.

>>3097443
Yeah, but they really didn't need it after a bit.

Especially when you consider you had to get a license from them to develop for the console at all.

>>3097443
NES still had a lot more shitty games than the 4th gen.

>>3097438
You're kind of right and I myself generally associate the C64 more with the NES era than the Atari era. It came out in 82, but didn't start to gain sales traction until mid-83 just as the crash was beginning and its peak development-wise came after all the pre-crash architectures were kill.

>>3097419
>>3097426
Tell me more about 1st gen gaming in Europe.
Why were these consoles amazing?
Lots of games/features?
Great build quality?
Is their RF output compatible with north american TV sets? I know Japanese RF output doesn't work with NA televisions.
Which one do you recommend importing?

I have heard that the great american video game crash was actually the second crash to occur.
There was an earlier crash at the end of the 1st gen of game consoles.
Does anyone know more about this?

>>3097463
>I have heard that the great american video game crash
The term "video game crash" is a slight misnomer since it was actually a collapse of both the computer and video game markets.

>>3097457
>Is their RF output compatible with north american TV sets?

>he asks if RF designed for PAL and European channel numbering is compatible with US TV sets

If I didn't know better, I'd swear he's trying to make a funny.

>>3097183
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmlDWtudBh8

C64 Donkey Kong is actually not a bad port, but it plays like molasses because the programmer decided to use bitmap mode instead of character graphics for some reason.

>>3097332
I'm not defending Ocean at all. They were shite and did nothing but grab as many licences as possible to crank out terrible, half-arsed conversions of arcade games.

>>3097348
Amiga was mostly a Yuropoor thing. C64 was about 50/50 America/Europe.

>>3097324
>>3097494
>>3097417
In the early days, programmers didn't have a lot of documentation for the C64 except the Technical Reference Guide which didn't cover a lot of stuff (especially using interrupts). A lot of C64 programming tricks were discovered by trial and error or reverse-engineering the thing. Later European games like Creatures 2 did things that even the original Commodore engineers didn't know were possible.

>>3097516
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KClk0ok-LiY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bIpXvt0wxo

Damn. You wouldn't even think these two games are running on the same hardware.

>>3097516
You also forget that dev tools in the 80s were really limited unless you worked for a big outfit like Atari. Half of those arcade ports could be done 10x better with today's tools and all the accumulated programming knowledge.

>>3097348
Amongst the 17 millions of C64 sold over the world (plus the 4.5 m of C128 which were basically the same thing) over 12 were sold in Western Europe. Mind that I say Western since there was still the Iron Curtain.

is this going to be some pc master race shit again?

>>3097537
Eastern Europe back then was mostly full of shitty commie Spectrum clones.

>>3097537
C128 would have mostly been sold in the US and continental Europe. It didn't exist in Britain because >implying disk drives.

I checked Amiga sales figures. Worldwide it was about 4 million however North American sales were under 1 million.

Go read up on Sierra, Broderbund, Synapse, Origin, LucasArts, and Microprose and tell me Americans couldn't into computer gaming.

>>3097545
I think that in Britain ZX Spectrum was the king

>>3097560
>interactive fiction with bleeper sound and loads of horrible disk access
>good
Really, America?

>>3097568
Spectrum was just poorfag rubbish for kids that couldn't afford a C64 or Amstrad.

>>3097569
>horrible disk access
On a HDD?

>>3097569
>taking 45 minutes to load games off a cassette tape

>>3096691
Your bait is so bad you don't even get a pic.

>>3097572
TBF I think he was referring to the C64 or other 8-bit machines.
>>3097573
Yes the tapes are bloody slow but once you load the game you don't have to do it again while a lot of your NTSC stuff needed to use the floppy drive constantly to load levels and save/load games.

>>3095170
Because your reality is whatever 3rd world village you grew up in. Meanwhile, in America I got one of the first 1000s, then a 2000 and a toaster and a 500 just for games. Wrote a few intros, cracked/trained a lot of games. And it wasn't just me. There were a couple guys from tristar and wow in my area. I was vf.

>>3097516
You're joking, right? Mine came with a programmers guide as thick as a phone book that covered everything from learning basic to every single bit used for interrupts. I discovered a few undocumented op codes by trial and error and there were a few ways to actually exploit the hardware to do things it wasn't intended to. But none of that ever stood in the way of anyone coding anything.

What computer had the worst arcade ports? The ZX Spectrum?

Ignore the Bong in here. We had disks in Germany and I'm fairly sure everywhere else on the continent. Britpoors were the only country that was too poor to afford disk drives. A lot of German games were adventures and strategy titles similar to the American stuff. There's many very good ones that are unfortunately obscure because they're not in English.

>>3097578
If you mean the Commodore Programmer's Reference Guide, yes it didn't cover everything which is why a lot of programming tricks were discovered by reverse engineering or T&E.

>>3097583
And we also got all the Britbong stuff. So we got the best of both worlds. The Britbong cassette arcade games also PAL conversions of American games because we actually had disk drives.

>>3097569
>he doesn't know that fellow Bong Douglas Adams helped develop the Infocom Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

>>3097569
>bleeper sound
you mean isn't filled with arpeggio farts to the brim?

>>3097583
Too bad you could not into winning world wars, Jurgen.

>>3097592
I do admit that American devs other than LucasArts never did figure out how to do anything with the SID outside the default envelopes.

>>3097576
The reason a lot of games were on floppy is because games like Ultima IV and Maniac Mansion were way too fucking big for a single tape. And also couldn't fit entirely on memory.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlMWwW1hzXc

(this was recorded off a real C64 so the quality is a little bad)

Microprose were the elite of the elite of NTSC devs though their games are very dry, realistic sims/strategy titles so maybe not your thing if you favor the Yuropoor "run around brightly colored level stomping enemies while gargle music plays".

>>3097605
There were some two-parter British tape games that required you to flip the cassette over, but they're never more than 64k in size and no or almost no tape games supported saving your progress.

>>3097594
LucasArts adventures were pretty popular in Europe desu because they're closer to the European taste for goofy cartoon-themed games.

>>3097608
>terrorists attack Soviet oil refineries
>the Kremlin decides to invade Arabs and take their shit
>but since this would trigger a massive NATO retaliation, they decide to first nuke all NATO members to get them out of the way

I get the feeling Microprose really didn't have a good understanding of geopolitics or why this scenario could not have possibly happened IRL.

>>3097608
At least they tried doing something original, only the yuropoors who did nothing but try to rip off the Japanese.

lol @ yuropoors who think Gianna Sisters is better than SMB

>150+ posts
>nobody mentioned the best European computer game

>>3097618
not only is it a video game, it's also based on a tom clancy book

not exactly meant to be realistic

>>3097619
I have seen some of these delusional Yuropoors on Lemon 64. Especially the ones shittalking Castlevania.

>this is nothing but rubbish. Commodore gaming should be about great original titles and not ports of Jap crap that's just used to sell merchandise to little kids and casuals

>>3097618
>>3097624
It's the fairly typical Hollywood version of the Cold War where the Russians were cartoon supervillains.

>>3097629
i do agree that the devs should have spent more time on actually making their own original games

but the guys at lemon64 are just butthurt because there's nothing comparable to castlevania's greatness on their computer

>>3097619
As I said, we had plenty of strat games in Germany although stuff like these Microprose titles where you fight Russians was banned here (we were shit-scared of Russians back then).

>>3097621
I loved this game when I was little

>>3097638
that's good but it just seems like such a minority of european games to me

you guys also made turrican, which i cant believe is actually praised here sometimes, the only good thing about it is the impressive music and graphics

>thinking Nintenyearold games are better

Protip: 90% of them consisted of "Run through scrolling levels while shooting/stomping/punching enemies. Defeat boss. Collect magic talisman which you then use to defeat the next boss."

Compared to that, the colour and diversity of our computer games was incredible. Try something like Wizball and get back to me.

>>3097647
lol i think i've seen this exact post before

>>3097645
>that's good but it just seems like such a minority of european games to me

You just don't know about German adventure/strat games because they're not in English which dooms them to obscurity outside of Germany/Switzerland/Austria.

>>3097647
I do agree you can't beat a lot of C64 games just for being really weird and different.

>>3097636
Creatures and Mayhem in Monsterland are pretty good but they still don't touch the best NES titles.

>>3097647
>>3097648
but yes, the NES was an arcade game machine, what exactly is wrong with that?

it even uses similar hardware to the early punch-out arcade cabinet

>>3097654
This only really applies to European games though since American computer gaming was nearly as boring and stilted as the NES.

What would you like to play today? Pick one:

*Dungeon crawler
*Adventure game (interactive fiction barely even counts as a "game")
*Sports sim
*War sim
*Flying sim

>>3097629
I actually went to Lemon64 and found this gem:
>I get the feeling that NES engineers used as cheap & simple designs as possible, often making it quite infernal & cryptic to program compared to C64's grace & dignity (and even C64 had its sacrifices/shortcomings..)
Keep in mind the C64 shares a VERY similar processor with the NES, and as another anon pointed out, was actually fairly undocumented.

>>3097661
As opposed to Europe's europlatformers, euroshmups and cheap conversions?

Yeah, I'll take those over that. At least American games took advantage of computer's complexity.

>>3097638
I'm Italian and back then we had a shitload of text adventures made by italian programmers.
Since they were text based I doubt any of them left the country, but I remember they were massive amongst people in hs/university and into games. I was a kid so I didn't mind but I remember my sister's bf being crazy about these serious spy stories/D&D ripoff and such, those were also the times of the first gamebooks.
Partially on topic
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SLJ3yStireM

>>3097654
>NES games were expensive to make
>devs don't want to take risks and prefer sticking to tried-and-true formulas
Duh.

C64/Amstrad/Spectrum titles were mostly just made by 1-2 lads in their den who simply did whatever they thought was fun or interesting. Console games feel more like a commercial product than a programmer's personal labour of love.

>>3097674
Yeah, I'm sure the port of Castlevania was a real labour of love.

>>3097638
We did of course get games like Pirates! that didn't run the risk of offending a nation that had thousands of troops and nuclear missiles next door to us.

>>3097684
I meant original titles, not shite ports. I do agree that a lot of programmers probably weren't big on doing conversions of Japanese console shite that they didn't really like or care about.

>>3097669
>At least American games took advantage of computer's complexity.
I'm real sure there's any NTSC games that look like Creatures 2.

>>3097708
You're not getting what I mean, are you?

I mean they actually had strategy games and adventure games, which were WAY more painful to play on the NES.

I don't give a shit about Creatures 2's pretty graphics. That's dancing baloney.

>>3097713
>I mean they actually had strategy games and adventure games, which were WAY more painful to play on the NES

That doesn't prove anything except that computers are better cut out for this genre than consoles. You ever tried the PS1 port of Civ2?

>>3097723
We're talking about the C64 and Amiga, though.

It's unrelated.

The point I'm making is the C64 is horrible for action games. Hell, it doesn't even support more than one fucking button on a controller.

>>3097619
Wizball is sure a hell of a lot more original than the hundreds of shitty Ultima clones that Americans had to play.

>>3097727
>The point I'm making is the C64 is horrible for action games

I don't think you know what the phrase "horrible for action games" means until you tried playing them on a PC compatible from the late 80s-early 90s.

>>3097728
You mean the Ultima clones no one bought because, well, they were Ultima clones?

At least it's not euroshmups and europlats.

>>3097730
Well that practically doesn't count.

IBM PC compatibles weren't meant for gaming until at least 1992. They were office machines first and foremost. You had to hate yourself to buy a PC compatible to play games before that.

But hey, at least most of the old CGA games don't seem to force you to use a joystick AND the keyboard at the same time.

>>3097713
>I don't give a shit about Creatures 2's pretty graphics. That's dancing baloney.

Considering this is the typical NTSC Commodore 64 game...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ueseD5D5yE

I love the C64 port of Arkanoid though. This is a nice conversion and one of the very few C64 games that can use paddles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EF1mBe5I_k4

>>3097751
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVf0sqqUMak

NES version doesn't have very good music and why does it leave out the intro from the arcade game when all of the computer ports have it?

>>3097738
>literally posting shovelware

>>3097754
I've seen the cartridge for sale before but I always passed it up because I don't have the stupid controller for Arkanoid (they're hard to find and usually don't work)

>>3097738
And the typical PAL game is either a euroshmup, europlat, or a shit port that never plays like the original.

Again, I don't even give a shit about Creatures 2's graphics.

>>3097734
>IBM PC compatibles weren't meant for gaming until at least 1992.
Tandys were meant for gaming.
VGA and sound cards came out in the late 80s and had decent support by 1990.

>>3097773
You still had to be insane to want one specifically for gaming though.

>>3097738
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cs8ReVVgjVI

You still wanna argue with me about the excellence of Yuropoor games?

>>3097751
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-az38oF444

The PC Arkanoid is pretty good as well. I like its minimalism.

It's a shame how ultimately underused the Amiga was as a gaming platform.

Either awful Atari ST straight ports or awful console conversions. The few games wrote specifically for the hardware often suffered from awful game design choices or terrible/nonexistent art direction.

>>3097783
>game from 1984 early in the C64's lifespan
>surprised it looks crude

At least Megahawk is an original game and not some sorry licenced game based on a TV show.

>>3097786
Microprose had the best Amiga conversions if only they didn't have copy protection forged by Lucifer himself.

>>3097787
>and not some sorry licenced game
Rich, coming from an European.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bL35HvTIMmw

Can't blame this one on Americans.

>>3097795
>The music is way better than in the NES version
and the game's entirely silent except for the title screen

i bet you can find some delusional yuropoors who will defend this port

>>3097793
The point was more that it's cheap for him to compare an original title like Megahawk to a rubbish licenced game.

If you're going to use licenced games as an argument, at least compare them against other licenced games.

>>3095170
Oh we had friends.

>>3097801
>i bet you can find some delusional yuropoors who will defend this port
They're not even that insane. Pretty much everyone is in universal agreement that C64 Double Dragon is a completely pathetic, shameful conversion.

>>3097785
>The PC Arkanoid is pretty good as well. I like its minimalism.

Old Taito ports were surprisingly fun on the PC. The DOS version of Volfied was one of my favourite early PC games.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxuMVqkLD7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLbSnnVeY_g

When even the DOS version of DD is better, you know you're doing it wrong.

>>3097785
>>3097806
Arkanoid also supports mice but I never got that to work.

AMIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIGGGGGGGGGGAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

t.Revision party goer

>>3097809
I actually kind of like that port. No music but at least it plays pretty smoothly and has a good framerate.

>>3097621
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blDZAM7Pszs

This is really the only exposure Americans had to Dizzy.

>>3097881
these fucking arpeggios, why

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tkSSDT8u5o

Europe totally never had licensed shovelware, no sir.

>>3097887
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvnRjAJMklE

If you like gargle music, try this on for size.

>>3097904
IIRC this was the last Dizzy game made for the C64 and also the only one to not simply copy the monochrome Spectrum graphics.

The Amiga Dizzys are awful; for some reason they were never able to adapt the games to that platform properly.

>>3097895
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnww_FoopV4
More licensed shovelware ports.

I love how it's missing like 4 stages and has really inaccurate music overall. I actually played it, and it feels like a turd.

>>3097909
>The Amiga Dizzys are awful;
oh no u didn't nigga

>>3097895
That's actually a very cute and fun game certainly better than the tons of shite American dungeon crawlers.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o4_zcRDbCM

This is a pretty good port although the NES version looks brighter and plays much more smoothly (the scrolling on the C64 is soooo slow).

>>3096893
I really detest the music in this version.

Giana Sisters also sure isn't better than SMB by a long shot.

>>3097936
They had ports of MC Kids on the C64, Amiga, and PC but all of them were Europe-only. The first two weren't relevant here anymore by the early 90s, but I don't know why we didn't get the PC port.

>>3097942
I can't believe the C64 doesn't even have TWO fucking face buttons, too.

It's a serious design flaw that I think the Amiga still had.

I sure like having to play Turrican with a joystick, while pressing spacebar with my toes.

>>3097951
Also the SID chip is a seriously overrated chip.

3 fucking voices, for what purpose?

Literally everyone had to work around it's shit limitations.

>>3097951
>I can't believe the C64 doesn't even have TWO fucking face buttons, too

Dudedudedude. It was designed in the Atari days when almost no games needed more than 1 button. I don't understand why the Amiga didn't have 2 though.

>>3097964
And a year later, the Famicom came out in Japan and Nintendo understood that 1 face button was not enough. So you get 4 of them.

The C64 is really piss poor.

Also you yuropoors make me fucking laugh with that Wizball and Mayhem in Monsterland shit.

Are those the only two good games you can name?

>>3097968
>The C64 is really piss poor.
Fight me IRL, faget.

>>3097968
>>3097956
ITT: People who clearly have no understanding of period technology or the intended target market/competition

For one thing, the Famicom was explicitly based on arcade hardware, also computers are designed for a different kind of gaming than consoles. Try and play the SNES port of SimCity and see what I mean.

>>3097974
How does it feel to know that even a Colecovision (MSX) computer has better games? Hell, it can't do hardware scrolling.

>>3097971
Thing on a Spring. Very nice little game and it doesn't have that dreaded arpeggio music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgPBZd8wknA

>>3097979
Yes, please continue shitting on my entire childhood and make me feel bad.

Thanks

>>3097979
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHajxrEvSME

Just no, ok?

>>3097991
https://youtu.be/gcZJ64PgtgA?t=147
And here's footage from a souped up, later revision of the MSX. If you think that's unfair, I can even give you MSX1 games.

>>3097978
The VIC-II chip was literally designed for video games, though.

>>3097971
Oh, I don't know. Maybe a little game called The Last Ninja.

I grew up with the amiga 500, so I have a lot of nostalgia for it. I've been recently replaying a lot of the old games I had for it on winuae, and I gotta say that it was mostly shit.

In my opinion, the biggest problem with amiga games was that they were designed for the basic 1 button joysticks. A lot of games with shit controls (holding up on the joystick to jump) and very limited gameplay mechanics. Some games were smart enough to have special attacks bound to keyboard buttons though.

A lot of times a multiplatform game on the amiga would have a better version on dos or consoles, although the amiga versions would sometimes have better graphics or music. Not worth it for the floppy disk loading times though.

After playing a bunch of amiga games recently, I'd say there was only a handful that I'd consider replaying.

>>3097996
>If you think that's unfair, I can even give you MSX1 games

Do it faggot.

>>3097996
>The VIC-II chip was literally designed for video games, though

Which kind of proves my point that you're pretty uninformed. VIC-II was a bit older than the PPU in the Famicom although you should again consider that the PPU was modeled on arcade hardware while Commodore were not a video game manufacturer. They were really trying to go after the Atari 400/800 and TI-99/4A.

If anything, the VIC-II and PPU were both heavily inspired by the TMS 9918 (the guts of the Colecovision). But one other thing to remember is that the NES's capabilities could also be expanded with mapper chips which you could not do on the C64. On the other hand, the PPU is not as thoroughly explored as the VIC-II.

>>3097987
So the Commodore 64 is a computer where joysticks couldn't have more than one face button, had the most overrated 3 channel sound chip ever made, it couldn't be expanded because every game came on floppy and tapes and had a disproportionate amount of shovelware. Great computer.

>>3097997
You mean the game people only seem to like for the visuals and music?

>>3098002
Look up Konami MSX1 games. The Gradius/Nemesis series, especially. Despite the MSX's limitations, they blow most of the C64 library out of the water.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yswWoP4doI8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG29xycW27E

Mighty Bombjack. This is a really nice port and the music is cute as well (no arpeggios/fart waves for once).

>>3098012
>So the Commodore 64 is a computer where joysticks couldn't have more than one face button
Dude, we've been over this and over this. It came out in 1982 when no games needed more than 1 button. I do agree the Amiga's lack of a two button stick was inexcusable.
> had the most overrated 3 channel sound chip ever made
What would be an example of a non-overrated sound chip.
> it couldn't be expanded because every game came on floppy and tapes
This is true for any computer as well as all consoles since the PS1.
>and had a disproportionate amount of shovelware
Wha...the Atari 2600 and NES didn't have fuckpiles of shovelware?

>>3098018
>Dude, we've been over this and over this. It came out in 1982 when no games needed more than 1 button. I do agree the Amiga's lack of a two button stick was inexcusable.
Yes, and only a few months later the Famicom came out and had more buttons, this is not hard to understand.

>What would be an example of a non-overrated sound chip.
FM chips (hurr it sounds like farts xD is what most people think), Konami SCC.

Weren't most early SIDs also badly engineered, which resulted in them randomly breaking?

>This is true for any computer as well as all consoles since the PS1.
We're comparing it to the NES and MSX here, both of which could easily be expanded.

>Wha...the Atari 2600 and NES didn't have fuckpiles of shovelware?
The NES at least had some form of protection against it. Hence the word disproportionate.

>>3098012
I think those Gradius ports are a little unfair comparison because Konami did the ports in-house. I will say however that the game is technically far more impressive than anything on the Colecovision which had the same chipset.

>>3098026
>We're comparing it to the NES and MSX here, both of which could easily be expanded

I'[m fairly sure though that you can't stick an extra graphics chip on an MSX floppy.

>>3098026
>Yes, and only a few months later the Famicom came out and had more buttons, this is not hard to understand

It was more like an entire year. Actually the C64 came out in mid-1982 around the same time when design work would have started on the Famicom. Nintendo built the first prototype in late 82 and the console went on sale in July 83. Design work on the C64 was mostly done during 1981.

Though beside the point, computers do have a keyboard to compensate for the extra buttons.

IIRC the Apple II always had two button joysticks. Even the IBM PC had two button sticks and that wasn't even a home computer.

>>3098027
If you want to get a bit more accurate, Gradius 2 here isn't a port. It came out before the arcade game and is a completely different game.

>>3098030
MSX games were mostly cartridge based.

They even sell a cartridge expansion that adds a new VDP in it.

It's why most MSX computers had two cartridge slots.

>>3098038
Yeah, computers have a keyboard.

Have fun playing Turrican with a joystick and your toes on the space bar.

>>3098026
>Weren't most early SIDs also badly engineered, which resulted in them randomly breaking?

Yes and no. The original 6581 SID had fragile filters which made it easy for the chip to be damaged by static electricity. This was fixed on the later 8580 model, although some programming exploits used on the 6581 no longer worked.

All they had on the MSX were rubbish Spectrum conversions.

>>3098051
yeah, once again made by lazy Europeans lmao

>>3098016
I don't understand why more C64 games didn't use that music style instead of the fart wave stuff.

>>3098062
That's the one thing the SID was great at, the flute (sine?) sounds.

I think one of the Donkey Kong ports has 1:1 music to the arcade because of that.

I'm not a big fan of the NES Lode Runner. They added way too much tinsel to it (the cutesy anime-looking sprites and ice cream truck music).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ukUPa_FmoGY

Compare that to the stark minimalism of the computer versions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BuBvaFOrD2M

>>3098067
That's because the NES port was developed by Hudson Soft. Says it on the title screen.

I think it was the first appearance of Bomberman as we know him.

>>3098062
IDK. Yuropoors were really obsessed with fart waves. Even when they did NES games, they still made the music sound like that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYWebKs0EGs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7wehz9qKVo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rw6EB1RC2tk

LucasArts had some of the few good American SID compositions although again you notice they never strayed too far from the default envelopes. Still pretty badass tunes though.

>>3098076
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCafbkQ-RT8
And I give you this.

>>3098065
Mighty Bombjack mostly just uses pure square waves for that ice cream truck sound.

>>3098084
I don't really like the music in the NES MM that much. It's a little too shrill and hyperkinetic compared to the laid-back intro music in the computer version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knC7vBhE9v0

NES Archon also has too much tinsel compared to the computer versions.

Though actually the original Atari 800 version is the best one.

>>3098042
Yeh but both of those computers have mushy analog sticks. You don't want to try arcade stuff with that.

Why was the Amerifat home computer scene such rubbish anyway? Apple II? IBM PCs with 2 colors and bleeper sound? Not one demo or real game (interactive fiction is not a real game). Come on.

>>3098012
>it couldn't be expanded because every game came on floppy and tapes and had a disproportionate amount of shovelware.

Some early American games came on cartridges, but they cost a lot and were discarded in favor of cheaper floppies and even cheaper casettes. And secondly when any idiot with a "How to program with BASIC" guide can mail a game to a publisher who'll pay for the programmer's lunch and shove the out for chump change of course there will be more shovelware that something regulated like the Nintendo. For a modern example compare Steam to PlayStation Network and see just how many games the former has and how many of those extra ones are shit.

>>3098103
Agreed. I'll just be enjoying my Dizzy and Last Ninja while you're enjoying Wheel of Fortune and Generic CRPG #78997289023 with monochrome graphics and a couple of bleeps for sound.

>>3098104
And for what it's worth, I think the overall quality of NTSC C64 games was better than PAL C64 games because we mostly had bigger multiload disk games that took more time/effort/expense to make. Britbongs had 10 billion shovelware games on tapes that you could buy in the discount bin at Tesco's, but most of them were trash cobbled together in a few weeks.

You going to tell me that some shit like Megahawk or Mr. Wino was better than Ultima?

>>3098114
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ldGtivLUzu4

This is such a fantastic, thrilling game with sparkling graphics and catchy music compared with that silly Yurosemen shovelware like Creatures 2, isn't it.

>>3098119
>comparing a game made in 1986 to a game made in 1992
>comparing also two completely different genres of game

Come on, you're better than that.

I love how Yuropoors used cherry picked A-list games from late in the C64's lifespan and compare them with stuff made in like 1983.

Rest assured the vast majority of Yuropoor C64 games were not Wizball or Turrican. Most of them were generic shmups that mostly served as a vehicle for some cool SID tune the programmer wrote.

>>3098143
Turrican is a shit game.

At the time you had shitty, low quality joystick. Look at the jumps they make you do in Stage 1-3 when you have to climb that mountain.

It's also an exploration based game, inspired by Metroid, yet it has time limits. And everything just looks the same.

>>3098143
>Most of them were generic shmups that mostly served as a vehicle for some fart wave tune the programmer wrote

Fixed.

Peter Liepa (the Boulder Dash guy) said he didn't like the C64 or think it was as good as the Atari 8-bits...so meh.

Turrican really isn't comparable to Mega Man at all for sound, smoothness, or especially having memorable, interesting levels or enemies.

IDK. Any time you go on some site like Lemon 64, they always have Top 10 Games lists featuring in no particular order Mayhem in Monsterland, Last Ninja, Turrican, Dizzy, Giana Sisters, etc.

>>3097669
>I get the feeling that NES engineers used as cheap & simple designs as possible, often making it quite infernal & cryptic to program

That's kind of debatable. In some ways the NES is a lot easier to program (especially scrolling the screen) in other ways it's far more of a pain (attribute system based on NTSC values). Also NES coding is extremely timing sensitive and requires you to count clock cycles or your program won't even run at all.

>>3098163
Mega Man really isn't that good. Overrated weebshit bolstered by Nintendo's huge marketing machine.

>>3098012
>So the Commodore 64 is a computer where joysticks couldn't have more than one face button
That is the company's decision, not yours. You can also plug in an external Sega Genesis controller if you wanted to.
>had the most overrated 3 channel sound chip ever made
What, do you think POKEY is any better than SID?
>>3098026
>Yes, and only a few months later the Famicom came out and had more buttons, this is not hard to understand.
Once again, that is the company's decision.
>We're comparing it to the NES and MSX here, both of which could easily be expanded.
Why are you comparing consoles to computers?

>>3098185
>That is the company's decision, not yours. You can also plug in an external Sega Genesis controller if you wanted to.
Yes, and either not all buttons work or they all do the same thing.

>What, do you think POKEY is any better than SID?
It's underrated, I like the sound of it.

>Why are you comparing consoles to computers?
The MSX is a computer.

So is the NES if you want to get technical. If it performs a calculation, it's automatically a computer.

>>3098179
>amazing soundtracks
>well crafted bosses
>challenging level designs
>tight, solid controls
>colorful, detailed graphics
>each game innovated on its predecessor
>neat "copy boss ability" concept that not only is good against enemies, but interacting with levels too
>art design based off great anime like Astro Boy and Kasshern

You Europoors really have awful taste.

>>3098185
>What, do you think POKEY is any better than SID?
Eh, some people like POKEY's cleaner chiptune sound to the SID's twanginess.

>>3098192
Yeh butbutbut some German autist on Lemon64 told him that MM is overrated.

All the enemies in Turrican just look like a brown and gray mass of pixels desu.

>>3098202
"What the fuck are invincibility frames?" -Manfred Trenz, Turrican designer

"The Nintendo really blew us away with the polish and sophistication of its games especially compared with most home computer games of that time."

-- Chris Stamper

>>3098192
>each game innovated on its predecessor

Eh, maybe up to MM3. 4-6 didn't really add anything new because they kind of hit the ceiling of what could be done with the NES's hardware.

>>3095182

>>3098229
4 had secret areas where you could find new things like the grapple chain or balloon upgrade. Also chargeable mega buster.

5 added Beat. Not much, I know, but it's something.

6 added branching level paths, and a day/night system based on if you returned to a stage you cleared already, and the Rush Adaptor armor.

Shamefuru confession. I've only ever played MM1.

>>3096302
Holy SHIT have I been playing the wrong version or what.

>>3098241
Play Castlevania Chronicles.

It's a very accurate port to the PS1, and it's much easier to set up with emulators and all.

Amiga Castlevania was actually done by Hungary-based Novotrade. I thought it was a British dev but I was wrong.

>>3098250
That's not the worst Castlevania port. THIS is the worst Castlevania port.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqPJfLO9XTE

>this thread

Thanks so much for bringing /v/ into this board. In conclusion, fuck you all.

>>3098302
Sorry I didn't have a shit childhood like yours, Yurope.

>>3098304
I'm not a Euro, I just said fuck you all for bringing /v/ into this board.

>>3098302
/v/ doesn't even know shit about computers outside of PC games made after the year 2001. Hell, they probably don't even know what a CPC is.

>>3098018
Actually it's more likely that they just decided to copy the Atari joystick port on the VIC-20.

>>3098487
Inexcusable.

The Genesis had the same port.

>>3098304
Nigga both sides in this thread are fucking retarded.

>>3098501
I should say the interface. They have the same plug however the Genesis controllers are electronically different from the Atari sticks in several ways. You actually could damage an Atari system by using a Genesis controller with it.

>>3098487
Big deal, IBM just copied the joystick interface on the Apple II except the PC joysticks have different resistance values.

>>3097968
>>3097964
Intellivision or Colecovision had over a dozen face buttons.

>>3097097
>NES music being more recognizable than c64 music

YOU STUPID BITCH, YOU STUPID FUCKING BITCH, I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW DUMB YOU ARE, JESUS CHRIST I CAN'T BELIEVE HOW FUCKING DUMB YOU ARE YOU ARE THE DUMBEST MOTHERFUC-

>>3098579
desu they also weren't computers with a keyboard.

>>3098505
For one thing I'd wonder why that one anon was comparing a computer to a dedicated game console.

>>3099191
Except for the Coleco Adam.

>>3097537
Overall European sales were greater but how many games weren't just shitty tape shovelware. I'd say for the relatively fewer games we had in the US, the quality was far better.

>>3099194
That was relevant for all of two seconds until the video game crash happened.

>>3098207
It does seem to me that Euro devs were good at tech demos but game design not so much. I wouldn't call Turrican any good example of game design despite its flashy sfx.

>>3099196
>>3099203
That could be and if you'd also consider that a lot of the US devs like LucasArts or Origin created entire new genres of games. The entirety of JRPGs was born because of Ultima and Wizardry. How many games did Turrican influence?

>>3098071
nigga don't you DARE shit on Jeroen Tel

>>3097075
When it comes to music, i think Nemesis the warlock is rarely beaten.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rmt4mdyIEuE

>>3096590
I'll have some chips with this salt waiter.

>>3099234
I also completely disagree with the guy who said the SID is overrated. When programmed properly (ie. not fart waves), it beats the NES every time.

>>3095189
The whole Mac hipster thing came much later, the video game crash affected consoles much more than computers (if it even affected computers at all), and IBM compatibles didn't obliterate the competition until the early to mid 90s.

>>3096206
Dating sims were a mid to late 90s thing. The popular Tokimeki Memorial series (1994-2014) was for consoles, and I think dating sims in general have been far more common on consoles.

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/JPNcomputers/Japanesecomputers.htm
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQPt69UCyIA

>>3096612
>the programmers didn't know what to do with it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--oV3MJbTXg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1FwD9jvD-o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=547c2KElkT8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1iDQtFUX2k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lQJ9UEG-Co

And of course there was the demoscene where the entire point was to program the most technically sophisticated and impressive effects possible.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SBWsdKBSTw0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFh07lXfxTY

But yeah I guess these Amiga programmers just didn't know what they were doing.

>Get fucked hipster.
The Amiga was super popular in Europe, not a "hipster" machine.

I can't be bothered reading this /v/-tier piece of shit thread any further.

>>3099234
Looks cool, too bad the game is very repetitive and just consists of variations on the same level.

>>3097585
Of course it didn't cover "everything". It was only a few hundred pages thick. But it had everything a programmer needed to get started and everything a non-programmer of average intelligence needed to become one. I can only imagine the amount of hand holding required by someone who couldn't get up and coding on the 64 with that book.

>>3099249
>The whole Mac hipster thing came much later, the video game crash affected consoles much more than computers (if it even affected computers at all), and IBM compatibles didn't obliterate the competition until the early to mid 90s.

Oh boy are you uninformed. The computer market had a nuclear meltdown similar to consoles that led to lots of companies going under (eg. Osborne, Morrow, North Star, and Cromemco), pulling out of the business entirely (Texas Instruments), or switching to IBM compatibles (most everyone except Apple). A lot of it was due to the same reasons as the video game business including market oversaturation, but also Commodore's effective annihilation of the low-end computer market.

After 85, there was just PC compatibles and 1-2 other niche brands like Apple.

>>3099263
This is important because Commodore owned a chip fab so they could sell computers for half of what the competition were charging. Jack Tramiel especially had a vindictive desire to punish old rival Texas Instruments who in any case were making the critical mistake of trying to sell a 16-bit computer at 8-bit prices.

Tramiel was also hell-bent on keeping weebshit out of the US market because of the overriding phobia of Japan, Inc in those days. As a result, the NEC PC-8801, MSX, and Sharp X68000 never saw the light of day here.

Goddamn, I love being American and actually having disk drives on my Commie.

I don't see what Mega Man does that Turrican doesn't aside from having cutesy weeb graphics.

Turrican is hardly a bad game although you can tell they were trying their dardest to imitate NES run-and-guns.

>>3099362
>>3099354
It is a much harder and more cheap game than MM; in fact none of the 8-bit MMs are that difficult. MM1 is the hardest yet I can beat it without too much difficulty.

>>3099247
yeah just look at all those voices wow

it sucks and its overrated because programmers have to actively work against it

>>3099441
The 2A03 is more limited in some ways than the SID. It has more channels but they're all fixed to a specific waveform, also the triangle wave channel is half an octave below the other ones since its main purpose is bass. NES music in general is bleepier-sounding. It also doesn't support some things the SID does like ring modulation.

>>3099354
Mega Man actually had thought put into its level design and bosses.

Turrican is a shit game, please try to defend those jumps you have to make in 1-3, and keep in mind back in the day everyone had shit joysticks.

>>3099441
I should also mention that I'm fucking TIRED of hearing the music from it.

>>3099263
>a nuclear meltdown similar to consoles
>A lot of it was due to the same reasons as the video game business
In other words, not the video game crash. Just like I said.

>After 85, there was just PC compatibles and 1-2 other niche brands like Apple.
In other words, IBM compatibles had not yet obliterated the competition. Just like I said.

>Oh boy are you uninformed.
Ok.

>>3099306
>Tramiel was also hell-bent on keeping weebshit out of the US market because of the overriding phobia of Japan, Inc in those days. As a result, the NEC PC-8801, MSX, and Sharp X68000 never saw the light of day here.
Those are all Japanese computers i.e. by definition not weeb. Not that there even existed any such thing as weeb computers.

>>3099354
So Mega Man, a Japanese game, has wannabe Japanese graphics? What exactly are wannabe Japanese graphics anyway?

>>3099454
>In other words, IBM compatibles had not yet obliterated the competition. Just like I said.

They did obliterate all competition aside from Apple.

>>3099454
>In other words, not the video game crash. Just like I said.
Well, actually it kind of was. The crash did have an adverse effect on home computer sales since gaming was one of the primary uses for them and that was now passe.

>>3099454
The fact that they are Japanese means they appeal to weebs and are thus weeb computers.

MSX was kind of outdated anyway; if they'd tried selling it here, it would have looked like a relic of the pre-crash era (being based on the same guts as the Colecovision).

Really. After 84, all 8-bit computers except Apple II and C64/128 were kill and the former was mostly reliant on the school market for sales.

Like Amerifats had any games as good as Football Manager and School Daze.

>>3099458
>had not yet obliterated the competition
>had not yet
>not yet

>>3099462
The post described events that were similar but unrelated to the video game crash. And why would computer game players just drop everything they're doing because console developers were fucking things up in their own separate market?

>>3099474
Oxygen, shoes and toothbrushes also appeal to weebs. What about it?

>>3099483
MSX2 is not only backwards compatible, it's also on par with the master system at least.

I'm sure it would've been successful if they actually TRIED marketing it, because they released two MSX1 models in the US and didn't even market them.

>>3099492
>And why would computer game players just drop everything they're doing because console developers were fucking things up in their own separate market?
Like I said, video games were not cool anymore 'specially arcade types of stuff. It gets a little complicated because the crash for the most part did not affect devs like Sierra who stuck to the more "traditional" computer genres, however companies like Sirius and Synapse who's primary business was arcade-style games did not survive.

It also explains why post-1985 C64/Amiga arcade ports were simply imported from Europe and not done by American devs.

>>3099495
>because they released two MSX1 models in the US and didn't even market them
Bad timing. The things came out as the video game crash was unfolding so never had a chance. There was also a slightly modified Sinclair Spectrum they tried selling here but it also completely bombed.

>>3099501
>Like I said, video games were not cool anymore 'specially arcade types of stuff.
This is completely nonsensical.

>>3099505
You really going to argue that arcades by 1985 were almost totally deserted and abandoned?

>>3099501
Sierra did make a foray into action/arcade games for a time (BC's Quest For Tires, Frogger, etc) but they pulled the plug on those by 85.

>>3099515
Don't think that's true.

They did import Thexder, Silpheed, and all those other Japanese games and ported them to popular American platforms at the time, and some were even better than the originals.

>>3099513
I'm going to argue that I didn't say anything about arcades.

>>3099517
Silpheed came out in 89 though; that was well into the NES era after video gaming had revived.

>>3099520
Yes and you completely lost the argument. The gaming market in North America from 84-86 was DOA. Only after SMB came out did it revive.

On the whole, recovery from the crash wasn't completed until the early 90s. If you study the NES era, almost all games of note were from Japanese devs and the only American console devs of that time were shit like LJN and Acclaim. By the SNES era, you started seeing quality American-based console development again.

Even during the crash there were still a few new arcade games coming out like Jr. Pac-Man and Dig Dug II but they were basically ignored. Marble Madness was the first arcade game since 83 to get any significant number of home system ports.

>>3095209
>in Europe since the late 80s however pre-PS1 era was completely dominated by Sega
wut?

>>3099492
For all intents and purposes. They sold less than a million Amigas in North America and it was a niche platform that could not have put a dent in the IBM-dominated marketplace.

>>3099523
>Yes and you completely lost the argument.
No. I was not talking about arcades.

>The gaming market in North America from 84-86 was DOA. Only after SMB came out did it revive.
You are talking about console games.

>>3099549
And computer games unless it was a dungeon crawler or adventure game. Arcadey games like Miner 2049er and Montezuma's Revenge...you didn't see those anymore once the crash set in.

>>3095170
because europeans at the time had less expendable income and thus saw a computer, which can be used for education and business, as a better investment than an electronic toy that half the time doesn't even have games in your native language.

>>3099578
Well, you also notice how technology in Europe moved slower. 16-bit machines decisively took over the US market after 83 while 8-bits remained relevant over there into the early 90s.

>>3097403
>Consoles weren't a thing in Europe until the NES era

NES games were extremely uncommon in Europe, except in the form of famiclones. I started out with a N64 and a 255-in-1 famiclone, then later got a Megadrive.

Megadrive and SNES had so-so popularity, more than the NES had, but it was a rich kid thing. Computers were much more common since people could just swap games, this was true from C64 to the PC. Commodore, Atari, and Spectrum users all hated each other with a passion (they made the 16-bit wars in America look like a squabble).

It really was around the Playstations time when consoles really took off, mostly because it was easy as shit to put modchips in them. A new wave of Famiclones flooded Europe around that time as well.

>>3097540
>Eastern Europe back then was mostly full of shitty commie Spectrum clones.

Eastern European here. Don't forget the C+4 and C16.

C64 was like a spaceship, technology wise, even in the early 90s for many.

>>3099624
The NES was common in Finland.

>>3097669
>Keep in mind the C64 shares a VERY similar processor with the NES, and as another anon pointed out, was actually fairly undocumented.

The CPU similarity matters just about the least in old computers and consoles.

It is the video and audio hardware which matters. The C64 was both more and less advanced than the NES in that regards. It was more powerful but could do less colours/resolution and less audio channels.

Also the NES had tons of expansions to get more advanced graphics out. The C64 never had those in any meaningful numbers (other than fastloaders for the disk drive) due to all games coming on disks and cassettes. I can't think of any game that was a cartridge exclusive and used extra hardware on the cart to run.

There were a few games that took advantage of cartridge expansions though. Prince of Persia and Metal Dust come to mind.

>>3099661
>I can't think of any game that was a cartridge exclusive and used extra hardware on the cart to run

The cartridge slot on the C64 only supports 16k max and has no R/W lines or any provisions for expansion. It's basically like an Atari 2600 cartridge. I don't even think any software came on cartridges after 1983.

>>3097968
>And a year later, the Famicom came out in Japan and Nintendo understood that 1 face button was not enough. So you get 4 of them.The C64 is really piss poor.

C64 was a computer that could ALSO run games.

Did you ever write your own algorithm on the NES, either for coding a game or for solving a math problem? No, I didn't think so.

>>3099680
Even the Atari 2600 supported expansions.

Look up Pitfall II.

>>3099682
What's the definition of a computer?

As soon as it does a calculation is a computer.

Guess what, idiot, the NES IS a computer. It just doesn't have a keyboard.

In Japan they even had a BASIC cartridge that they sold along with a keyboard, and had Nintendo come out with the AVS instead of the NES we would've had it built-in. Even had a tape drive and floppy drive.

>>3099682
ackchually

>>3099661
>The C64 was both more and less advanced than the NES in that regards

VIC-II advantages:

*More freedom of color/attribute placement
*Bitmap mode
*Does not require l33t hax0r tricks or an add-on mapper to generate a raster interrupt
*You can write to the VRAM/registers any time without having to design code around the VBLANK
*More tasteful color palette

PPU advantages:

*MUCH easier scrolling
*No concerns about screen tearing since you cannot modify anything except during the VBLANK
*More colors overall
*Hardware sprite multiplexer

>>3099250
Probably. I've never played it but i am a big fan of the comic and found that it exists. Might give it a try on some emulator, the score is goat.

>>3099690
Just because the NES is technically a computer doesn't mean it's functionally a computer. It was for playing games, not for programming, word processing, music composition, drawing and bulletin board systems.

>>3099263
I'd watch some of that. Can you recommend some youtube channel with old hardware history? I remember seeing some but entirely forgotten the names.

>>3099694
SID advantages:

*Far more flexible in terms of the sound that can be generated with it
*All sound channels can use all of the available waveforms
*Ring modulation
*Digitized samples sound MUCH clearer than the 2A03

2A03 advantages:

*PCM channel - digitized samples sound fuzzy, but they take a mere 2% of CPU time unlike the C64 where it takes upwards of 50%
*More sound channels (5 instead of 3)
*Can be enhanced through add-on chips like the Konami VR4

>>3099624

Depends which part of Europe are you talking about. In UK, France, Italy and West Germany (we are talking about '80) the Nes was just badly marketed. Dunno about Spain or eastern Europe but famiclones were not common at all in those nations. Micros had a good run untill 1992 but consoles, starting with the Master System, were already popular. I don't get where you got the so-so popularity of Megadrive and Snes. Those two consoles were huge, practically everywhere, especially in the UK.

>>3099661
>The CPU similarity matters just about the least in old computers and consoles

For example, a Mac Plus and a Sega Genesis have the same CPU but try and make a decent port of Strider on the former.

>>3099701
So despite the xbone and PS4 sharing the same guts as a normal PC, it can't be a computer.

Whatever, I read posts exactly like yours on Lemon64 and I laugh at them all the time.

>>3099709
Master System/Mega Drive ruled all major PAL regions (Europe, UK, Latin America, Australia) while Nintendo was almost irrelevant unless you were the Stamper brothers.

>>3099680
>I don't even think any software came on cartridges after 1983.

Definitely not true, I have Flimbo's Quest here on an official multicart. Which is IMO by far the most impressive C64 game, and the most console-like too (Creatures and Mayhem can get fucked, they don't even do parallax scroll). It also uses very original sound effects.

Just look at this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ep4Q0-yAmXw

>>3099717

The Megadrive had a good start and continued to be strong during the 16bit generation. However Nintendo was able to gain a considerable market share, especially when SF2 was the pack in game for Snes. Still Sega won in Europe, but Nintendo was irrelevant only during the NES era.

>>3098195
SID definitely stands out; in fact C64/128 were really the only 8-bit platform that didn't sound like stereotypical bleeps and bloops. In fact SID chief designer Bob Yannes complained how at that time (1981), most microcomputer sound chips seemed liked "they were designed by people who didn't understand anything about music".

>>3099718
I think there were a couple of PAL carts such as the Ocean Double Dragon but there was never a need for them in regions where people had disk drives.

>>3099690
No, if it can do only calculations then it is a calculator.

For it to be a computer it would need enough I/O for you to be able to write, save, and load your own code. And by that I don't mean saving your game in Zelda into the SRAM.

>In Japan they even had a BASIC cartridge

Doesn't change the fact that the NES was primarily a game machine, while the C64 was not.

You are comparing a toy to a microcomputer. Of course the toy is more fun for games. But it won't do your accounting.

>>3099714
Maybe you should actually read my post. I never said consoles aren't technically computers, I said they aren't functionally computers. Again, with a C64 you can do programming, drawing, composition, text drawing and telecommunications. By design.

>>3099739
>give an example of the usage of the NES as a computer
>HURR THAT DOESN'T COUNT
fuck you too

>>3099742
The original Nintendo AVS would have bombed here because the low end computer market fell apart. Even Family BASIC was rejected for the US market because it didn't quite fit Nintendo's 10 year old target audience but also it wasn't really needed here. Anyone who wanted BASIC programming could just use an Apple II or something for that. It's not like Japan where home computers were rare and machines like the X68000 were mostly limited to the educational market.

>>3099739
>Family Computer
>Supports popular programming language
>Saves and loads data to data cassettes
>Has keyboard
>Not a computer

Wew, stretching pretty hard there anon.

>>3099752
I just think Nintendo didn't want to do it after all because they were scared of all the shovelware it would've produced.

Looking at computers popular in Europe, they were right.

>>3099709
>I don't get where you got the so-so popularity of Megadrive and Snes. Those two consoles were huge, practically everywhere, especially in the UK.

Eastern Europe.
Yeah, MD and SNES existed, and I had one too (in fact I had both). There were TV shows about them, and they WERE popular... but they were not common simply because they were very expensive. An average cart cost something like 1/3rd of the minimum wage. I only found out decades later that most of my carts were in fact bootlegs.

Most people had computers (from C16 to PC), and then later Playstations or Famiclones. Gameboys were also more common than MD or SNES.

>>3099752
Nips live in tiny shoebox apartments. There isn't the space for a large desktop PC like a X68000. It's a bit like Yurop where they favored small one-piece computers like the Spectrum instead of a huge hulking IBM XT.

>>3099752
>and machines like the X68000 were mostly limited to the educational market

Yeah you ever seen Sailor Moon episodes where she's at school and they have an X68000 in the background?

>>3099752
Comparing the NES to the X68000 is possibly the most unfair comparison I've heard.

The X68000 is pretty much a better Amiga.

>>3099752
Home computers in Japan seemed to have been for nerds even more so than in the West. But there was a very active game development scene.

I've never heard of the X68K being used for education. It was an expensive workstation. PC-98 was the most popular system.

>>3099756
Obscure, marginal accessories that almost nobody has ever heard of don't mean the NES was a computer in the same sense that the C64 was a computer.

>>3099761

>>3099742
Yeah, and Commodore had the Max Machine (early japan-only consolized C64), that doesn't mean the C64 was primarily a console.

>>3099756
So, how much software have you written on your NES? Just curious.

>>3099714
They could be a computer if they had a OS that supported doing computer things, such as a software development environment, or the ability to freely read/write any kinds of data on their system.

Neither of them do.

They are locked down toys. Well, more like multimedia machines nowadays. But they aren't "computers" in that sense.

Japanese PCs had lots of CRPGs and dating sims because the target audience for those was college students and the computers were typically found at universities where students would game when they had free time.

>>3099776
>if an anon doesn't write software, the NES isn't a computer
you're a funny guy

not everyone is an autist who likes assembly language

>>3099783
>hurr assembly is for autists
Somehow I get the feeling that you don't actually understand or care anything about computers.

>>3099790
No, because I really don't give a FUCK about the low level stuff at all. And I doubt 90% of /vr/ does either.

Here's the first definition in Google for computer, by the way:
>an electronic device for storing and processing data, typically in binary form, according to instructions given to it in a variable program.

>>3099797
>No, because I really don't give a FUCK about the low level stuff at all. And I doubt 90% of /vr/ does either

>spend a good 80% of this thread arguing technical specs of various machines
>no sah nobody is into the nuts and bolts of dem dere video gaymes
Uh...

>>3099783
Funny you say that because the primarily programming language for the NES was assembly, unless you imported some obscure famicom cart and peripherals.

Meanwhile the C64 came with a hundred fucking page programming guide for using BASIC and the first thing it does when you boot it up is telling you that it is READY for user input. What does your NES do if you boot it up without a cartridge, I wonder?

>>3099803
It awaits for the ROM input, doesn't it?

I never said the NES didn't use assembly either, learn to read. What I said was just because an anon can't program in assembly, that doesn't mean the NES isn't a computer. The burden of proof is on that other anon who argues so hard that the NES isn't a computer.

>>3099807
Also can the Amiga even do anything with just Kickstart?

It's not a computer then if it can't do anything, right?

>>3099780
From all that I've seen, the Japanese PC game industry at the time was mostly small scale with a lot of hobbyism involved. And not publishers with "target audiences."

"Dating sims" (you probably mean VNs) were made for the same reason that anime OVAs with porn, cute girls and sexy women in them were made: otaku were into that sort of stuff.

>>3099797
>No, because I really don't give a FUCK about the low level stuff at all.
Programmers did.

>Here's the first definition in Google for computer, by the way:
Again: just because something is technically a computer doesn't mean it's functionally a computer.

You don't care about computers, but at the same time you have a fanatic need to convince people that the NES was as much of a computer as the C64, as if not being a computer made it a shamefully inferior system. Have you tried seeing a psychiatrist?

>>3099624
NES:es are/were pretty common in Sweden.

>>3099797
Definition of a computer according to Wikipedia:
>A computer is a general purpose device that can be programmed to carry out a set of arithmetic or logical operations automatically. Since a sequence of operations can be readily changed, the computer can solve more than one kind of problem.

NES fails on this because
- it is not a "general purpose device", it's a Japanese toy made for the purpose of playing video games
- it can only be "programmed" in rudimentary ways, in so far as controlling Super Mario consists of programming (by the technical definition, it is user input to which the code responds to, so yeah)
- you can't actually program it to solve more than one kind of problem.

UNLESS you get a set of peripherals and that BASIC cartridge that TURNS a Famicom into a "computer".

At this point I don't even know what the fuck we are arguing about anymore.

>>3099814
>It's not a computer then if it can't do anything, right?
The Amiga could be used, by design, for programming, office work, audio editing, music composition, video editing, image editing, painting and telecommunications. It shipped with a multitasking graphical operating system and there was also a version of UNIX made for it.

>>3099832
Yes, and without Workbench or Amiga UNIX you're stuck without any of that functionality, aren't you.

So all the NES needed is an operating system, APPARENTLY, to be a computer.

>>3099839
Yeah, with the proper OS it could have been turned into a fully functional computer. A really shitty one, anyway, because it was just not designed for computational tasks - it was designed for playing Mario and Zelda.

>>3099847
You know you're discussing with eurotrash when they say shit like this.

Newsflash: Mario and Zelda are not the only NES games. Go look up Recca.

>>3099775
American computers tended to look like they were carved from granite unlike the Yuro fixation with bright colors.

>>3099839
>Yes, and without Workbench or Amiga UNIX you're stuck without any of that functionality, aren't you.
No, because you can boot directly into a program.

>So all the NES needed is an operating system, APPARENTLY, to be a computer.
The NES is not a computer not matter how much you wish it was. Why do you think it needs to be a computer? What is wrong with just playing games?

>>3099850
Yeah it's not like the console didn't ship with Mario or anything.

>>3099854
>No, because you can boot directly into a program.
Oh, you mean like you can with the NES?

>Why do you think it needs to be a computer?
Because it is, no matter how hard you try to deny it.

>>3099857
>Yeah it's not like the console didn't ship with Mario or anything.
The Famicom didn't. It came out in 1983.

>>3099859
Pretty sure there WAS an addon for programming on the famicom released in Japan. Or maybe the pc engine.

>>3099864
That's what I've been saying the whole thread.

>>3099859
>Oh, you mean like you can with the NES?
We are talking about programs, not games, and this is completely beside the point.

Again:
>The Amiga could be used, by design, for programming, office work, audio editing, music composition, video editing, image editing, painting and telecommunications. It shipped with a multitasking graphical operating system and there was also a version of UNIX made for it.

>Because it is, no matter how hard you try to deny it.
It isn't, as already explained. Why does that make you so insecure? Again, what is wrong with just playing games?

>>3099859
>The Famicom didn't. It came out in 1983

Technically it did since Donkey Kong and Mario Bros were two of the initial games available for it.