/vr/ - Retro Games

I dont think so really I think scanline filters are fine but thats about it... Nothing beats the real thing imo

>>3073679
I like my games crisp and clear, thank you.

>>3073679
>>3073684
>Meme Pic
That's literally nothing wrong with component or scanline filters. It's the "high-quality" and RGB filters that are messed up. Only Hilter was wrong.

>>3073679
Simulating CRT blur and geometry distortion is a very bad idea. Simulating CRT flicker is essential, either with hardware or software BFI as available in RetroArch. Flicker is the only way to get sharp looking motion at low latency from console games.

>>3073698
Then you must be simulating CRT flicker.

>>3073707
>console games.
Way to jump to conclusions.

>>3073679
It's cool when done right. Which means no less than 4x scale with 1440p or higher preferred. Phosphor and glow emulation is required for it to look convincing as well. Scanline shape and convergance options are good to have as well.

https://a.pomf.cat/ofyuyu.png

http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/CRT-Royale

>>3073723
>https://a.pomf.cat/ofyuyu.png
That looks more like a GBA filter.

It's shit and for faggots. Get a real CRT.

>>3073679
I don't get the point.

It's more nerd cred and what kids think a CRT looked like than anything.

>>3073856
Real CRTs are dying and won't be around forever, so shaders are important for preservation

>>3073864
LCD shaders will never replicate a CRT. They can't.

shadders looks..... fine.

but still interpolation effect is shit.

>>3073679
The idea is cool. Unfortunately the execution is more often than not lame.

If you like the way a filter looks, then use it.
If you don't like the way a filter looks, then don't use it.

>>3073874
>LCD shaders will never replicate a CRT.

No shit? An LCD shader does not attempt to replicate CRTs, they replicate low res LCDs like a GBA has. See: LCD-cgwg

CRT shaders are what try to replicate CRTs, to varying levels of detail (CRT Royale currently emulates the most details)

CRT shaders have high display requirements. A shitty 768p TN panel won't cut it.

>>3073931

this

>>3073892

They're fine, it's a decent way to upscale an image.

>he doesn't use a window glare filter

Get the fuck off my board.

>>3073931
A shader is a shader, kid.

There's no way a shader will ever replicate a CRT.

For one thing over half the screen would be black and the light output would suffer.

Good luck replicating phosphor glow too.

>>3073946
>For one thing over half the screen would be black and the light output would suffer.
That's why bloom is emulated. CRT-Royale does phosphor glow too.

If you weren't ignorantly rattling off, you'd know that most of the details are emulated at sufficiently high resolutions. The only problems now are with display hardware itself, not the shaders.

>>3073957
If you honestly think any of those example you just used accurately replicates CRT phosphor glow you are underageb&.

>>3073679
I don't like them. I'd rather view the game as is.

>>3073960
It is accurate. CRT phosphor glow is not magic, it behaves in predictable ways that can be emulated. Nothing you've said proves this wrong.

>you are underageb&.

Good argument. I'm 27 BTW, not that it matters.

>>3073973
>behaves in predictable ways
Yes.

>that can be emulated
But not well, not so far.

>>3073973
>CRT phosphor glow is not magic, it behaves in predictable ways that can be emulated.
In a room with zero ambient light.

Please you have no idea what you're talking about. It's painfully obvious you're in your teens or younger and have never seen a CRT.

>>3073748
Never seen a GBA screen like that before. Sure looks like my CRT TV though.

>>3073975
>But not well, not so far.
Explain why.

>>3073978
>In a room with zero ambient light.

Why would I want to emulate ambient light or glare? Those aspects are external to CRTs and would already exist when using LCDs anyway.

I own both a CRT SDTV and a SVGA CRT monitor. But keep projecting what you want to believe, I guess.

>>3073996
>Those aspects are external to CRTs and would already exist when using LCDs anyway.
Is this kid honestly saying a LCD has the same glare issues as a CRT?

>>3073996
>Explain why

I can't, I'm not a scientician. But after spending 25 years with a CRT, nothing I've seen is really able to accurately reproduce that glow in such a way that if they took a screenshot of it I wouldn't be able to tell. Sorry for the vagueness but they all look wrong in some way.

>>3073998
Who cares about glare? Use a shiny coated LCD if you really want that.

I feel like I'm being trolled now.

>>3073938
Probably could make the glare into transparent texture and apply it over the game image.

>>3074005
What is it with you kids and wanting to romanticize CRTs?

>>3073679
>Is CRT emulation lame or cool?
Contrary to popular believe you can't emulate fasr response times, darker blacks, and more vibrant colors

CRTs all the way, but if you don't have the money or space I understand

>>3073679
For anything pixel, interpolation + 25% scanlines is magic.

>>3073679

scanlines filters are decent if you don't have a CRT, but if you have room for one (especially a PVM, which are usually small anyway so most people would have room for one) then you should just use that instead.

>>3073679
In my experience cgi games like mario rpg seem to benefit the most of it since they really make the color noise from tvs into consideration in the art style.

>>3073679
Hipster as fuck, CRTs are only good for retro games because no input lag but when you have the option for no input lag with regular emulation, why bother, scanlines look like shit

>>3074368
No just no input lag, but also low persistence. That is critically important for acceptable motion quality. But yes, scanlines are indeed shit, and you should use a PC monitor CRT + emulator to avoid them (or line doubler if you insist on using real hardware).

>>3073723
too washed out unless you were going for composite with the brightness too high and the sharpness at 0

>>3073707
>Simulating CRT flicker is essential, either with hardware or software BFI as available in RetroArch. Flicker is the only way to get sharp looking motion at low latency from console games.

That's partially misleading and not true. I don't need to simulate CRT flicker because I have a god damn CRT monitor. But I do need to emulate CRT TV scanlines because I have a CRT monitor - it's high resolution and sharp, low latency and has black levels. But it's not inherently designed for 240P. Albeit adding scanlines causes the problem of dropped brightness, since monitors are more often less bright their TV counterparts and still yet less bright than LCDs. That's really the worst part.

When discussing filters and CRT TV emulation sample and hold/flicker are different issues and should be considered separately.

Not everything has a perfect solution but some improvement is better than raw garbage.

Real CRT

CRT Royale, rendered at 4K with Blargg's NTSC filter

ignore color differences, NTSC color burst shows up more on screenshot than in the camera pic. The camera also desaturated the colors a bit.

>>3074475
>it's high resolution and sharp
And you throw that advantage away with ugly filters. Obvious scanlines are not an intended part of the design, they are a side effect of the hack used to display 240p on a 480i CRT.

>>3074616
>Obvious scanlines are not an intended part of the design

Then why does everything look better with them?

I dont see the point.

>>3074616
>And you throw that advantage away with ugly filters.
That's the point retard. The games weren't high resolution or sharp. Hence the "ugly" filters. Because the more high resolution and sharper a display the more accurate you can depict scanlines for games that were hipster edgy in the first place and get proper color blending and smooth lines back. It's almost like you can't fucking read.

>>3074626
It doesn't.

>>3074636
>the games weren't high resolution
True
>or sharp.
A limitation of the technology at the time. The designers mostly intended them to be sharp (pic related).

>>3074643

Oh, its the square pixel purist again.

>>3074643
Pic unrelated you mean. Literally. What some marketing scrubs and a now lazy era of development team with no integrity is hardly relevant to the intent of individuals long ago who worked on projects. Even individuals themselves can change and will milk something that was intended to be good when it was developed with awful later for cash.
Nintendo hasn't been relevant for fucking ages and there are a plethora of techniques that have been screenshot and emulated that demonstrate that it was definitely not intended to be sharp. Don't bother debating the point, the debate has long since ended on that topic the same way there's no debate that 2+2 doesn't equal 22 in the decimal system when dealing with a fucking retard. It's not, period no matter how much retarded you throw at it.

>>3074657
>Don't bother debating the point, the debate has long since ended on that topic
Yes, and it was conclusively proven that Japanese devs prefered sharp pixels. Only a few weird American devs thought otherwise.

>>3074664
Blurfags BTFO

>>3074643
>Nintendo's own screenshot
>uneven pixels

Absolutely fucking disgusting

>>3074664
>conclusively proven
>previous picture demonstrates actual usage of blending technique that sharp pixels literally cannot accomplish
Fuck off back to /v/ and troll there.

>>3074668
Dither transparency in a DOS game (no blurring on original hardware). The filter user's mind has degraded to the point where that can no longer interpret this correctly, despite thousands of kids having no problem back in the 90s.

>>3074664
>and it was conclusively proven that Japanese devs prefered sharp pixels.

Source: your rectum

That box art is from the American version by the way, the Japanse version had a completely different box art

>>3074670

He's literally regurgitating the same arguments that he's made every time he shows up.

>>3074676
Hey idiot, DOS era CRT monitors were much blurrier than the SVGA era CRTs you probably remember.

>>3074669
Only slightly disgusting because of the high resolution. It's a weak version of the technique that anon who posts enormous unoptimized PNGs uses.

>>3074670
It's called "speedlines", it's a standard technique to represent motion in a static image. As for the "misalignment", this is necessary for high motion quality when you are using sub-pixel physics. Again, Nintendo gets it right once they have the technology for it.

>>3074691
A standard VGA CRT is sharp enough to show clear pixels at 480p. That game is running at line-doubled 200p (trading resolution for refresh rate, because VGA can do 70Hz at 400p/line-doubled 200p). The pixels were extremely sharp compared to 15kHz CRTs.

>>3074678
The Japanese manual showed sharp pixels too.

>>3073679
>That one on the right

Oh my god. That's it. That's the picture from my childhood.

>>3074698
It also shows it black and white.

It has the same pattern as dithering, but it's not dithering! The filter user cannot comprehend this.

>>3074698
Shut up, faggot.

>>3074713
Nintendo always does everything as cheaply as possible. That's why their consoles are always underpowered. Of course they cheaped out on the manuals too.

>>3074698

It's not really all that sharp, looks more like big dots

And don't forget PC-88 and PC-98. These used high resolution CRTs just like VGA CRTs, and dithering was an important part of the style. Blur makes kanji almost illegible (see pic).

>>3074726
It's not as sharp as you can get with modern displays, but it's far sharper than OP pic.

>>3074012
Or play in a room with a window.

>>3073679

Looks like shit. All 3. If you remember it looking like any of these, you didn't grow up "vintage" you grew up poor with a shit tv.

>>3074716
You're an idiot who understands nothing. On real hardware, that pattern would not be blended due to the pixel clock the SNES uses that makes 256 width pixels distinct. But the same pixel clock would blend 512 width pixels in jailbar patterns, like what happens with Kirby Dream Land 3 transparencies. That's why SNES doesn't have many instances of checkerboard dithering used for transparency.

Meanwhile, Mega Drive displays 320 width and composite blurs the hell out of it, so the checkerboard patterns get blurred there, unless you use S-video or RGB. The devs were definitely taking advantage of it to show more colors than the Mega Drive could actually display.

>>3074735
All TVs were shit then, it didn't matter how rich you were. To get good quality you needed a PC monitor CRT.

>>3074739
>unless you use S-video or RGB
Which everybody who cares about quality does.

Kickin' rad.

>>3074676
If that pattern alternated every frame, then it wouldn't need to be blurred to look blended.

A static checkerboard pattern that is simply displayed with harsh square pixels will not look transparent unless you stand 20 feet from the display to where your retinas can no longer make out individual pixels.

Reply to this post if you're a nigger.

>>3073679
>filters
fucking lol

>>3074749
>A static checkerboard pattern that is simply displayed with harsh square pixels will not look transparent
Yes it does, because I am capable of using my brain to interpret it. It's no more a "harsh" pattern than Mario's head is really the size of his torso. If you can't understand dithering then how to you understand non-photorealistic art?

>>3074770
No, you're using mental gymnastics. A sharp checkerboard is a sharp checkerboard, unless you are sitting far enough back that the pixels are just small dots in your retinas.

You know, display this on a CRT with just a little blur is better than none at all. No need to go overboard with the blur just to make it blend all the way while making everything else look like smeared vaseline.

Use mdapt or gdapt to selectively blend dither patterns.

>>3074776
The blur literally destroys information. You are only making it more difficult to interpret. There is no visual difference between single pixel details and dithering. You look at the context and interpret it, the same as with any non-photorealistic art. This is trivial for normal humans.

>>3074781
No adaptive blurring works as well as human intuition. They all fail on cases like the Chrono Trigger typewriter.

>>3074787

Don't use them in games where checkerboard patterns aren't for dithering.

If the game used that pattern for dithering, they wouldn't be using it for displaying graphical details.

>>3074783
>The blur literally destroys information.

Only if it's excessive. Blurring the edges of pixels destroys nothing.

BTW, your pixel purist views are pretty extremist and not shared by the majority of /vr/ that prefers the CRT look.

>>3074795
>implying I don't prefer the CRT look

High end CRTs are great. It's only 15kHz CRTs that are shit.

Extensive dithering on system with sharp pixels.

>>3073864
One of mine I got from Goodwill for $10 and the other was on the sidewalk. On my bus ride home today I passed by another one sitting outside.

They aren't that hard to find, especially in the summer when there's no rain to ruin the stuff people put out.

>>3074797
>High end CRTs are great. It's only 15kHz CRTs that are shit.

I agree with this actually. The majority of consumer grade 15kHz CRTs are pretty subpar in image quality, only a minority of professional monitors have good quality.

Many PC CRTs have comparable picture quality to those professional monitors, with the only drawback is that they don't sync to 15kHz. But for emulation, that doesn't matter, since there are various ways to force them to display native resolution vertically without linedoubling, so they're ideal in that situation.

>>3074792
Let's see an adaptive dither algorithm that correctly blurs the dither in this pic...

>>3074826
>In the summer
>No rain
So retarded it hurts. End yourself.

>>3074828
While preserving the detail on the blocks the enemies are pushing here. It's the same two line dither pattern, but clearly intended to represent a starburst type pattern, not intermediate colors.

>>3074829
Dude I live in fuckin' Seattle and we've gone through whole summers without rain.

And it's likely that wherever it does rain in the summer, it does so less at that time than any other time of the year.

>>3074827
Even professional 15kHz monitors are worse than typical 31kHz VGA monitors. And SVGA monitors far exceed them.

Forcing a 31kHz CRT to show 240p with BFI gives extremely prominent and ugly scanlines. Line-doubling is not a bad thing. Line-tripling or line-quadrupling is even better.

>>3074749
>If that pattern alternated every frame
DOS games all had terrible framerates (before Jack Jackrabbit), but at least it meant nobody tried anything as dumb as flicker transparency.

>wherever it does rain in the summer, it does so less at that time than any other time of the year.
Source?

>>3074832

Kirby's Dream Land is a Game Boy game, designed with a dot matrix screen in mind, not a CRT television.

>>3074836

No, the idea is you're retarded for living a place that doesn't get rain an entire summer. Enjoy dying of starvation in 15-20 years.

>>3074941
And it still uses dithering!

>>3073864
Real CRTs will be around at least until we're all dead.

>>3073957
You are so fucking naive

wait, so how does CRT-Royale work? Does it only work with retro-arch?

>>3074761
Hi

>>3075571
SNES' 256px wide resolution does not aid much in blending dithering using a lowpass filter on the composite's output as much as the Genesis' 320px wide res does.

Which I remind anyone ITT, is NOT the result of using a CRT display. So blabbering left and right about how any dithered pattern in any fucking game was meant to be blended in a CRT is fucking retarded.

>>3073973
What the fuck is with you emulation faggots? I CAN EMULATE AN SNES SO I CAN EMULATE EVERYTHING ELSE!

Those CRT shaders are fucking retarded. They really don't come that close to looking like a CRT. If you want a CRT that bad, get one, because you just look like a bunch of cunts with this shader shit.

>>3075805
It's simply another way of hiding scaling artifacts. But some people here are blind and can't see those.

>>3075805
>They really don't come that close to looking like a CRT.

See
>>3074591
>>3074601

Now stop being angry and wrong.

>>3074837
>Forcing a 31kHz CRT to show 240p with BFI gives extremely prominent and ugly scanlines. Line-doubling is not a bad thing. Line-tripling or line-quadrupling is even better.

Looks like this is where our differences begin. For me, it's native resolution all the way.

Can somebody explain to me why scanlines seem to be so important on /vr/? My CRT doesn't even have scanlines.

>>3075903
The only use I can think of is vertically panning games with native resolutions such as 512x240 and making them look acceptable without interpolating out the ass.

A complete meme.
Get a real CRT if you want it to look like that.
Otherwise just play at the original resolution, no need for shitty upscaling so you can see that giant pixel better.

>>3075919
>>Get a real CRT if you want it to look like that.

You fags keep saying this, but do you know it's not easy to find good CRTs in certain areas and much less be able to use them correctly with emulators?

CRT shaders have their place, especially realistic ones when 4K screens are becoming more common.

>>3075958
>emulators
There's your problem.

The best part of CRTs is the FUCKING INPUT DELAAAAAY

Get a CRT.

Speaking of, anyone know where I can look for a CRT monitor over 25"?
Not a TV, a Monitor. With VGA. 640x480 at the minimum.

I want to be able to use it for more than just retro.

>>3076078
forgot my picture

blarg's s-video is all you need

>>3076081
Neat

>>3073679

>>3073679
The only shader I like is an overlay I made for mame. I set the output to 1080, and used I think it was 5 pixels high. The black bar scanlines are just dark grey and 2 pixels high, and the "color" bands are 3 pixels high with vertical stripes of extremely light red, blue, green. Looks good to me. The lines are evenly spaced, and the stripes give it a nice textured look, but the whole this is way more mild than any other shader I've used. HLSL is ok too, but the lines aren't even so vertical motion looks weird.

>>3076405
Also I use bilinear filtering for some blur, but turn up my tv's sharpness to make it just right.

>run emulator through wii
>output 240p video to my CRT television
>don't need to dick around with shitty shaders

I don't get it I guess. When I play on my CRT I like the gritty look, but when I emulate I don't dick around with filters and I don't really see the point.

They're different experiences.

>>3076420
>everyone but me is stupid
>plays on a crt

>this entire autist discussion about developers intentions
I played the games on crt when I was a kid and that's how I like to play the games when I indulge in nostalgia.
End of discussion.
I play retro games for nostalgic reasons, but I sold off my collection a long time ago, because it was just collecting dust and I had no time to play any of the games. So once in a blue moon I play a retro game I liked, but I'm not going to buy a CRT for the sole reason of getting used once or twice a year.
So when the mood strikes me to do something nostalgic on my living room TV my laptop that emulates how I as a kid experienced the games, complete with CRT filter and curvature.

>>3073723
>>3074591
>>3074601
Holy shit this stuff has come a long way in the last 6-8 years.
>>3074664
Regardless of what they would've liked, TVs were a certain way so the games came out looking a certain way and people liked it. Failing to work around or indeed *design for* the limitations in the hardware and just saying "I wish it was better" is the mark of a developer that's lazy (or being rushed).
>>3074729
I don't read moonrunes but it looks like that filter preserves the edges and detail pretty well, and some of those characters are literally a bunch of white pixels jammed together with some gaps in them, and anyway I doubt most players have the view shrunken down that much.

>>3073679
I feel scanline emulation is justifiable on LCDs since it compliments the large visible pixels.

>>3076517
I played a lot of shit games as a child. I play old games now (not "retro", true retro games are off-topic here) only if they are good, and most are not. Nostalgia does not make a game good. If I can make a game look better then of course I'll do that. I overclock emulators too. The original hardware was cheap crap.

>>3076682
>work around or indeed *design for* the limitations in the hardware
As the Gameboy Kirby examples prove, in the case of dithering this is visually indistinguishable from ignoring the limitations of the hardware (Gameboy had very sharp pixels but devs used dithering anyway). And because all non-retarded people have no problem interpreting dithering correctly, and because evidence from both old and modern Nintendo products shows that sharp pixels were preferred, there is no reason to destroy image quality with blur filters.

>>3076748
You don't make any sense. You say the hardware was cheap crap and most of the games were bad, but you also say you care what the developers wanted. You say you make a game look better if you can, but you reject any means of getting rid of jagged edges, even if it's consistent with what the games were expected to use. Either you're a subtle troll or you're a very confused individual.

I use scanline filters over the anti-alias filtering that looks wrong.

>>3074795
>>3074783
Blurring works "fine". Especially on low-res textures like those found on real-hardware N64. BUT not so much on pixelart like those found on nip eroges. CRTfags are being retarded with their muh accuracy.

>>3076078
It was hard enough to find a CRT monitor over 20 inches back in the day. But monitors never needed to be that big since they can display high resolutions very clearly even on a common 14-inch compared to TVs.

Try getting a PLASMA TV while they're still alive. They have INPUT LAAAG.

>>3076883
You are falsely assuming that jagged edges are bad. Jagged edges are an essential part of the pixel art style. The give an illusion of higher resolution by ignoring mathematically correct sampling theory and deliberately aliasing in a controlled way. It's the same principle as font hinting. The only 2D games that didn't use them were the horrendously ugly pre-rendered 3D style (eg. DKC games).

>>3076078
>With VGA. 640x480 at the minimum.
I hope you're not real retarded. VGA Monitors should ,in theory, be able to accept and display ANY resolution, unless the hardware makers restricted it.

>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VGA_connector#Cable_quality
>he same VGA cable can be used with a variety of supported VGA resolutions, ranging from 640×350px @70 Hz (24 MHz of signal bandwidth) to 1280×1024px (SXGA) @85 Hz (160 MHz) and up to 2048×1536px (QXGA) @85 Hz (388 MHz).

>>3078094
Donkey kong country was hardly horrendous looking.

>>3078136
>http://www.avsforum.com/forum/64-direct-view-single-tube-crt-displays/2156801-crt-monitor-sold-had-highest-resolution.html
Better explanation for the newbies and fucking hipsters.

>>3078140
It's one of the ugliest games on the SNES.

>>3078094
It's not an assumption, it's a matter of taste, and one many people agree on.
As for objective things, the downplaying and elimination of jagged edges and sharp corners has been a goal of computer and video game graphics from the beginning. For the NES in particular the goal was clearly a less blocky presentation than previous consoles by virtue of the fact the system could do so and first party games from the very beginning had more detail to them. The "pixel art style" was not the goal per se, it was quality by whatever means and judgements the developers used. If some of them wanted jaggies and sharp angles, cool, but not all of them did, and they all must have been aware that whatever they did would come out looking less sharp than it was in their designs.
I have no idea what you're talking about as far as jagged edges giving an illusion of higher resolution versus anti-aliasing or blurring, that's the whole point of those things. By their nature (at least in older games), jaggies show you exactly what resolution the system uses to draw a game or a given object. The blurring effect of (old) monitors and TVs and cables and other equipment *does* give an illusion of higher resolution by filling in some of the gaps between right angles.

>>3076081
Maybe it's because it uses a fucking bluetooth to transfer image from wiiu to gamepad?

>>3078263
>The blurring effect of (old) monitors and TVs and cables and other equipment *does* give an illusion of higher resolution by filling in some of the gaps between right angles.
That's the exact opposite of what it does. Sharp pixels = more high spatial frequency content, which is associated with higher resolution. Blur makes the resolution look lower even if the pixel data is still recoverable.

>>3078159
I never played it until last month and I think it's one of the best looking games on the SNES.

>>3078401
The math of it isn't relevant, you don't see the math. The blur the shapes of things often look like there's more to them than the actual simple pixels they're drawn with. You would have more of a point if we were dealing with hardware pixels, but for all the games available for discussion on this board (other than handhelds and some PC games on vintage equipment), the hardware can show more detail than the game draws. This blur is often not as good as proper anti-aliasing, especially on large screens or high-quality equipment or with older games that have larger software pixels, but it helps the mind make the figures look smooth, and as I said smoothness has been a goal in graphics since the early days of arcade games. (I know when I first got into emulation I was struck by how blocky everything was, but looking closely it was always drawn that blocky, I just didn't see it that way because of the hardware.)

>>3078701
meant to say
>The blur makes the shapes of things often look like...
also the blur makes/helps dithering look like actual color blending/other colors

I think CRT shaders is just for nostalgia.

CRTs did a few things better like contrast, input delay but LCD has come a very long way.
Any way, shaders don't affect contrast or input delay
The difference in input delay isn't as big as it once was, especially with IPS. IPS also has nice contrast and viewing angles.

Using a plasma tv though.
Input delay is fine, contrast is great.
Only lolworthy thing about plasma is its pixel density.

>>3073679
The only thing from a CRT you should try to emulate are specific things included in a game which take advantage of CRT techology like transparencies or extra colors.

The best CRT shaders still give off a really dull image.

>mfw owned every fancy CRT and LCD monitor you think of
>mfw tried every trick in the book to make old games look better
>mfw I gave up and now play games on an old random RCA television through a composite video cable and a flash drive
>mfw it's perfect

General question for peoples - do you think CRT filters would make sense in a virtual reality setting, like an emulator applied as a texture to a CRT TV model?

>>3079228
Agreed, although I think you should get svideo cables instead of composite, and curved glass if you don't already

Filters and shaders are fun to play with, but I mostly stick to scanlines. I grew up with shitty crts and I don't miss them... Well I miss the lightgun games though.

>>3079228
Did you use PVM's? I had a couple of them and still have an Ikegami. I prefer consumer sets though. Studio monitors are just too sharp, and don't look all that different from just using a vga crt with fake scanlines.

>>3079269
>Agreed, although I think you should get svideo cables instead of composite
Nah bruh, I'm done.
>>3079279
>Studio monitors are just too sharp, and don't look all that different from just using a vga crt with fake scanlines.
yup

>>3074946
>Enjoy dying of starvation in 15-20 years.
>what is commerce

>>3076748
>I played a lot of shit games as a child. I play old games now (not "retro", true retro games are off-topic here) only if they are good, and most are not. Nostalgia does not make a game good
Nostalgia has nothing to do with something being good or not. I'm nostalgic for a lot of things that are by definition outdated compared to modern things.
Yet I long for them because they remind me of childhood memories.
The same way a fresh meadow in the spring reminds me of childhood, even though some might argue that a perfume smells better.

>>3078708
Please stop.

>>3079210
Which are not CRT traits at all, good job Anon!

>>3079250
Most VR headsets run at 90Hz, so motion quality for 60Hz games will be fucked no matter what. It doesn't matter how you display them.

what do you mean by CRT emulation? there are a lot of effects
personally, i get a little headache from the horrible scaling of low resolutions on LCDs so there i use scanlines but anything else looks bad
also just fucking pick up a CRT already they are like 20€ at the most

What emulator has the best CRT emulation for NES/SNES/N64?

>>3074601
what are your settings for crt royale

>>3081161
http://hastebin.com/vicesoxipa.ini

I just copy and paste these parameters into whatever crt-royale preset I'm using

>>3074601
>NTSC color burst shows up more on screenshot than in the camera pic. The camera also desaturated the colors a bit.
You meant to say 'my emulator has shitty palettes.'

Also,
>implying we all have 4K monitors
Also,
>implying that this is an adequate replacement despite lag and lack of line-by-line drawing that prevents a light gun from working

>>3079902
He's right about extra colors.

CRTs can display an infinite number of colors with infinitely small variations in voltage. LCD's are usually 6-bits-per-color (6 for red, 6 for green, 6 for blue - 18 bits per pixel), or on higher end ones 8-bits-per-color (8 red. 8 green. 8 blue, total 24 bits per pixel).
So a 18 bpp monitor can display 262,144 colors, a 24 bpp monitor can display 16,777,216 colors, and an analog CRT can display ∞ colors.

Not terribly worth mentioning for the 24bpp ones, but sometimes I can notice dithering on my laptop's 18bpp monitor. Dithering is often used on 18bpp monitors to fill the difference between the monitor's color depth and the color depth being output by the video card.

>>3078136
>in theory, be able to accept and display ANY resolution, unless the hardware makers restricted it.
And the reality is the electronics in many monitors simply aren't fast enough/rated for the speeds required to draw higher resolutions to the screen, and more so at a decent refresh.

are these threads not bait? maybe i'm naive since i own a crt older than myself but god damn. it's all a rendering filter when you analyse it for more than two seconds. maybe just enjoy the games for their gameplay?

>>3078136
>I hope you're not real retarded. VGA Monitors should ,in theory, be able to accept and display ANY resolution, unless the hardware makers restricted it.

Actually, a flyback transformer can only operate within a certain range of frequencies. If you had an infinite number of flyback transformers in a monitor you could get absolutely any resolution, but the reason why multiscan monitors make a 'click' as they switch from 15khz to 31khz is that a relay inside has just toggled between two separate transformer windings. The higher frequency flyback transformer is used for higher resolutions, and the lower frequency for lower ones.

>>3073679
>not using original snes hardware in combination with an upscaler unit

>>3081975
>not using original SNES hardware in combination with a CRT the way god intended

>>3081895
Yeah but CRTs don't actually display or blend more colors than the RGB pulses they're fed. Not in a useful way.

>>3081884
Naw. NTSC filter alternates color bursts per frame so a single frame it shows up really strongly. Nestopia's YUV palette is pretty accurate though.

>>3081895
Except retro games don't use much colors compared to IRL videos and movies anyway. I don't see why this is a problem unless you love shitty FMV games on Sega CD.

In addition, Modern /v/idyas are all grey and brown , with some green anyway. So color depth means nothing pass 16bits.

>>3079279
>Studio monitors are just too sharp, and don't look all that different from just using a vga crt with fake scanlines.
Just fucking use composite, damnit. Most games were designed for the lowest common denominator.

>>3082342
It doesn't have to be useful, it just has to look good.
>>3083023
It's about dithering and just spots where two things meet. Also Halo would like a word with you (not so much the last two to three, but the original trilogy is too new for this board and it's very colorful).

>>3083151
>it just has to look good

Yeah but it's certainly no magic undither machine (for that, take >>3083029 as an advice). It just has a higher color space than the vast majority of LCDs, that's all.

>>3074734
This, Jesus.

>>3078754
>but LCD has come a very long way.
They have, and they've got a long way to go. It's also irrelevant when compared to the fact that old games weren't effectively raw pixels on a clean screen and thus look horrific without output blending. In which case filters that fix that on an LCD are better with it than without.

>The difference in input delay isn't as big as it once was
It's definitely not and yet it's still multiple frames of delay. There's a difference between improving and good. If I pay you 10x the amount of money you earn an hour, but you only earn ten cents an hour I've paid you a dollar an hour. That's still absurdly shit for living in any developed country, but it's a drastically huge improvement over what you were getting. So, sure... input delay is better than it used to be and it's still fucking shit.

Also, plasma TVs are known to have delay and can have worse issues than LCDs and also some worse in every single aspect. Plasmas are mostly bullshit marketing.

>>3078754
>IPS also has nice contrast
Oh yeah, no it doesn't. Better than crap yes. Nice? No. Same issue as input delay. High contrast? In the worst way possible that doesn't improve the way it looks and makes it worse to use.

>>3074017
this whole board is full of autists thats what

>>3082342
>Yeah but CRTs don't actually display or blend more colors than the RGB pulses they're fed. Not in a useful way.

That wasn't what I was saying. A CRT can have infinitely more degrees of color than a LCD.

>>3083003
The single most accurate palette is Nestopia's "canonical" setting for the decoder (I think the windows version calls it 15 degree canonical), when you have 'YUV' selected.

I pulled that palette out and it's here. Tested it by running FCEUX with this palette, it's identical.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/74519404/palette-yuv.pal

>>3083003
>>3084347
Also, I made a couple comparisons and used my capture card to grab composite from my Famicom. I compared with a calibrated CRT and the colors captured match what the CRT showed.

If anyone wants the 'beware' NES palette, as extracted from a friend's HDMI NES mod, let me know. It's not particularly great though (too green).

>>3073679
guys don't crt screens make your testicles smaller and your babies more retarded and your eyes go bad

thats what they used to tell me

>>3084368

Anybody who is is obsessive over CRT screens probably is getting laid anyway.

>>3085141
Most women I know wouldn't go near a man who plays retro games on an LCD screen.

>>3084350

http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/Famicom_Color_Palette

You can add it there. It's a catalog of various Famicom palettes.

>>3084368
Hey, my balls are huge.

Don't you need an OLED screen for CRT shaders to look any good?

I can understand the nostalgia factor, but I'm not into it personally. I can play games on emulator unfiltered and it's perfectly fine. I don't feel any need to be a connoisseur or a purist. occasionally there's issues like the "junk" on the edge of the screen in NES games but there are no major problems.

>>3073859
This. Always entertaining to read a thread about them though.

>>3076509
>emulating crt is better than actual crt
wew lad

where can I get the most ridiculously rounded filters for SNES emulation?

>>3090249
in retroarch you can stack layers of shaders, and many filters like 2xSai have been ported to shaders so have fun

>>3078159
Disagreed senpai.

Looks great to me

>>3090704
thanks ƒam

my cfg for the similarly sadistic: http://pastebin.com/H0D8xbRM

>>3092097
Post a webm of a playthrough on Touch Fuzzy with that setup.

Lame because the equipment needed costs more than the device it's emulating.

>>3092116

>>3073679
I don't personally use any. I like the look on an LCD screen.

Whenever I do want a more nostalgic I'd just hook my PC up to the SDTV I own. Go to any thrift store. You can find a huge one for 20 bucks, and an average/small for as low as 5, possibly lower.

>>3092298

>>3073938
Top kek

>>3092298

>>3076370
i havent played lttp yet but this looks so much like the picture in the beginning of ff4

>>3073938
>windows
>in basement

Soon we'll have people wanting to use filters and settings to faithfully re-create the nostalgia of using a slow faulty SNES emulator on their 1997 Thinkpad.

>>3073679
Fuken love it.

>>3074692
>this is necessary for high motion quality when you are using sub-pixel physics

hahaha
anon you have no clue what you are talking about

>>3095890
that a real filter or just a photogimped single frame?

>MY taste is better than YOUR taste
No it's not, which is why I use my taste and not your taste faggot.

I have never understood the vitriol some people have about filters. If you don't like it, well, don't use them. No need to get all angry at people who do use them.

>>3090249
>>3090704
You can also use reshade on top of retroarch.

>>3092312
CRT's take lots of place, technically its a cool thing to have a set of PC and CRT dedicated just for emulating older games but at this point is somewhat an overshoot, dedicating money and lots of space just for something that can be done on monitor well enough.

Instead of relying on older, heavy and hard to come tech its better to promote CRT filters which are a more universal solution.
Not to mention there are already shaders that do a good job at emulating CRT, with flashing, mask and blur and hopefully it will be only better in the future.

>>3100228
Also on a pic there is very visible grid of a kind, probably artefacts created by fraps but filter itself doesnt have anything like this while in game.
Image is smooth and feels like original CRT and that coming from someone who still has original CRT and plays frequently on it, just cant connect it to PC.

>>3095919

I usually thing CRT shaders look like shit, but this seems like it might be viable

>>3084350
I would rather play with Nestopia than real hardware then.

>>3100285
Yeah, as far as CRT filters go that one is pretty good, especially for 2D, 2.5D games ignore those vertical bars I have no idea why I get those on screenshots but during gameplay there is nothing like this, I think those are either artefacts or because this particular filter emulates some strobe flashing I just dont see them.
Too bad retroarch doesnt have good psx cores, psx games would benefit the most from that filter.

>>3100547
>Too bad retroarch doesnt have good psx cores

Retroshill users are this dumb.

>>3100556
You saying it does?

>>3100563
Define 'psx core', just to be sure.

>>3100572
Kek, called someone dumb even though you are not sure.

Also, you have ban on google or something? Can I help you googling what emulator core in retroarch is?
Sure I help you because I am usually good to animals.
>RetroArch uses separate libraries, called emulator cores or emulator implementations

>>3073679
emulation dont beat the real deal, but it's nice in a pinch. I like my retro games a little grainy and off-color.

>>3100594
On the contrary, I thought you weren't sure about what a 'core' was because it happens to use the highest tier of PS1 emulators around. It would be like complaining about water not being wet enough.

>>3100605
I doubt it is possible to use retroarch and not know what core is since you have to download those yourself.

Psx cores in retroarch are horrible inadequate comparing to any other emulators whether we talking options or performance.
I am not 100% sure but I think only this month we got internal res up to x8 in mednafen, something which been in any other emulator for ages.
Even then, upping internal resolution boggles down even the strongest machines.
It might be accurate but so is water physics benchmark which renders at 0.5 fps, just because someone says its accurate doesnt mean its usable.

Epsxe or pcsxr at the moment are miles above mednafens implementation in RR.
I literally have no idea what resolution or shader I have to use to reduce fps in either of those because no matter what I did, fps never dropped a single frame.
I dont have compatibility problems with anything I play and from my point of view, there is nothing mednafen or beetle does better, even in interpreter mode epsxe is faster than mednafen and in dynarec everything is perfectly playable.

>>3100669
Those sound like arguments a ZSNES user would make desu.

>>3101594
Your post is an argument a retard would make.

>>3095919
>The crt filter works as a cheap alternative to AA
Huh, well whadaya know.

>>3100669
Anything above 2x resolution is a waste of time.

Mednafen/beetle is more accurate than just graphics though, and everything is fullspeed at 2x resolution.

Plugin emulators are crap unless you're running on a complete toaster.

>>3100669
You sound like an uneducated retard. Especially since pcsxr is known to fuck certain games FPS for no reason at all and espxe couldn't play a game like it originally looked for its life.

They served their purpose until something better came along and hardware could handle it. Now they are depreciated. Just like your dumbass.

>>3100669
You don't even understaaaand

>>3102663
>espxe couldn't play a game like it originally looked
So it couldn't play a game looking like shit? Yeah I agree senpai

>>3102663
>You sound like an uneducated retard.
I see you got your degree in emulation?
>pcsxr is known to fuck certain games FPS for no reason
No its not, you just pulling this shit out of your ass.
On the other hand psx emulation in retroarch is actually known for being slow as shit and new increased internal resolution settings makes it unplayable on machines with i5-4690K and GTX 970.

>espxe couldn't play a game like it originally looked for its life
Pic related, mednafen, apex of emulation, looks fucking perfect, exactly as "real life"

>>3102735
>Epsxe:
>ozmg shit, is that even real life because doesnt look like it.

>>3102735
>Epsxe:
>ozmg shit, is that even real life because doesnt look like it.
That is your >>3102663 fucking logic?

>>3102735
>espxe couldn't play a game like it originally looked for its life

Which is just as well because it originally looked like fucking shit.

>>3102740

Now try mednafen at 2x with dither scaling.

>>3102663
>You sound like an uneducated retard
>Just like your dumbass.

Please call them en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suicide_crisis_lines they can help you hopefully

>>3102745
Still slow as fuck though.

>>3102735
>I see you got your degree in emulation?

>new increased internal resolution settings makes it unplayable on machines with i5-4690K and GTX 970
>GTX 970

Yeah dude, how about yours?

>>3102769
>Yeah dude, how about yours?
Well, its you who called me "uneducated" in discussion about emulators.
I just figured, you pointing out my lack of education surely had possessed a degree on the topic or something.

An example of good crt filter.
1:
No filter.

>>3102809
2:
crt filter

>>3102815
Another example of awesome CRT shader.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhXpqaXMyS8&feature=youtu.be

>>3102815
that looks disgusting

>>3102865
>That bottom level troll attempt.
Dude just go back to 9fag, do everyone a favour.

Some more.

CRT-Royale > All

>>3102890

Its incredible that back in the day artists actually tried to use CRT drawbacks to their advantage and succeeded.
Only now we can see how scanlines, color bleed and low resolution actually add to the depths and color palette of an image.

>>3102809
>>3102815
>>3102890
>>3102894
>i don't know the difference between crt emulating filters and color balance

>>3102971
Except I am showing an example of a CRT filter and not color balance filter.
Color balance comes with CRT just as blurriness, scanlines and everything else.
Because thats what CRT was and thats what people trying to recreate.

If I would take the retarded way to refer to those things I would have to write a fucking screed every time I was about to explain anything.
Like this is CRT filter combined with color balance filter combined with shit smeared on your eyeballs filter, etc.
No you fucking autist, CRT filters does all those things and every single peace of code that emulates CRT affects color balance as well.
Go fuck yourself with a rake.

Btw this thread spurred me to do something about FF IX in epsxe, glad there was already something I could use.
>pic related, standard epsxe screen with texture filter to 0 and no bells and whistles.

>>3102996
Epsxe with texture filter to 2 still ugly as shit

>>>>3103007
Epsxe with texture filter to 2 and ShadX's Natural Vision Shader (Modded by SimoneT)

>>3103010
Same as above but now with some faint scanlines set to 200.

>>3103013
ctrl+tab trough them to see progression.

Here is view compared with retroarch's analog shader pack (S Video) >>3095919

>>3103018

>>3102761
>>3102740
3D games also look nicer.

Lame

Its mostly over done to a poit where it looks like what someone thinks a crt display looked like.

Worst mistake is the curved edge look. If I saw that on a real crt id be adjusting the fucking pincushion.

>>3073684

came here to post this. doin gods work anon

>>3104095
>Worst mistake is the curved edge look.
Depends what kind of screen you want to emulate, some older tv and most arcade machines had it.

>>3104145
Only because they werent adjusted

I am actually curious how those games look on my old CRT, too bad cant connect PC to it and my psx is long dead and mourned.

I think I'll use ps3 media server to display screenshot from an emulator on my CRT and see how does it stuck up to unfiltered image on my PC monitor.

>>3106512
>Freddie Russo
Curse you Nagashima Hirosaki!

>>3106512

I have >>3103021 but can't find the right memory card. Might be in the garage playstation. When the intro is done I'll post a pic.

>>3106545
In a ps2 with texture smoothing on.

>>3106565
And in a psone

Both using s-video to an old sanyo. I'm sure it could be better. Nvm the color differences, my potato isn't that great either.

>>3106565
More people should post PS1 games with the PS2 smoothing filter in the CRT threads. I find it amazing since it's the only 100% accurate implementation of bilinear filtering on the console.

>>3106570
I prefer it to the ps3's n64 filter. Too bad there are zero crt around me. I would like a pro monitor but can't ship one.

>>3073679
mad lame

>>3106570
I took screenshot on epsx with hi resolution and smoothing filter on and then trough PS3 media server displayed it on my CRT.
That looked sharp and awesome, I need to try with no enhancers but shit looked plain awesome and few shortcoming of the CRT shaders become painfully obvious, such as skewed colors or too strong and large scanlines.

I really wish there was a way to play on emulator on PC and stream it to CRT tv via some server.

>>3106602
Umm mod the ps3. Also can't you play ps1 on the ps3 natively? I need to fix my old chrome face so I have native ps2 again.

>>3073938
What's up with this version of DKC?

>>3081895
Why does it allocate the same bandwidth to blue pixels as to green? JPEG doesn't because your eyes have low sensitivity to blue so it's a waste.

>>3107613
that looks like a lenticular (sp?) image.

>>3102996
>CRTs all have the same color temperature

>>3107595
Because chroma subsampling is shit, and it wouldn't save much money anyway.

>>3107595
because it would cost more money to have a separate circuit design to control blue than the other two primaries of light.
Also, it's slightly more accurate color-wise. But nothing close to a CRT or even true 24-bit LCD (8 bits per color).

>>3073679
Slightly less lame than LCD emulation

Quick question.
I've live in something of a second-hand store hub and was thinking of grabbing an old smaller TV and hooking my PC up to it.

Do you need to prepare you emulator in any visual way for an authentic look?

>>3092097
>those hard-coded paths
man what, really, why wouldn't it use relative paths in a situation like this

>>3074657

>>3076078
if you want over 22 @480p get an HD CRT

Heavy CRT emulation and other emulation effects can help mask the Genesis tiny color palette issues, so I say go for it. Depends on game and system, really.

>>3108121
Genesis proved that a color palette wasn't everything

>>3108149

>>3108153

>>3108149
It did?

So I just did that >>3106512
Apparently every single shader I posted before is off by a large margin when it comes to color, contrast and darkness.
My CRT displayed pictures just half a tone darker/blander than default epsxe, almost indistinguishable from it.
While stuff looked ok on my CRT, the pictures I took with my phone looked a bit too dark or saturated.
I'll post them nevertheless, for science.

First pic taken on epsxe, with smoothing and enhanced internal resolution and the other taken on epsxe with no bells and whistles.
Then same pics displayed on my CRT and pics taken with phone.
Note that colors are actually a bit too intense because my phone decided that, what I see on my CRT is just half a tone darker than epsxe, the colors are also a bit weaker compared to epsxe.

Apart from color balance what I seen on my CRT looked a lot like this shader from Retroarch >>3095919 >>3100547 >>3100669
Its extremely realistic shader when it comes to how image actually looks on CRT, just need its color balance adjusted and toned down and it will be a perfect shader.for me.

This stuff >>3103010 >>3103013 >>3103021 >>3103074
while provided nice smoothing effect on epsxe is way off in color and darkness, I think if I adjust those it will be ok for 2.5D games.

A curious experiment I have to say.

>>3108224

Here it is obvious how good smoothing effect CRT has, FF IX would be actually playable on crt while on LCD every single screen tries to assassinate you with jaggies.

>>3108271
Sega's lack of colors really hurt it at times.

>>3095890
I kind of like this.

If it wasn't so intense I think this would work well as an art style.

>>3075903
>My CRT doesn't even have scanlines.

>>3073938
I've always had some fingerprints across slight layer of dust

>>3074739
>unless you use S-video
Now I get this hurr-durr-muh-sonic-2-waterfalls meme
Fucking peasants and their shitty oscilloscopes

>>3074795
I bet you enjoying FXAA, homo

>>3102643
>Mednafen/beetle is more accurate than just graphics though
What about this?
http://emulation.gametechwiki.com/index.php/PS1_Tests
It looks like epsxe might not be a shit tier as you make it out to be.

>>3108176
sega had a history of cost cutting its hardware and pretending nothing was wrong. put them out of the hardware business eventually.

>>3112029

Those tests are incomplete, and it's suspected that ePSXe intentionally coded to pass those specific tests, but it still has issue in games that Mednafen/Beetle does not.

As someone who's been playing games on CRTs my whole life, I can't stand CRT filters. They will never look authentic and I vastly prefer playing the games unfiltered if playing on an LCD.

>>3075903
All CRT's have scanlines. Yours might not be far enough apart to have huge black gaps between them.

I only have CRT's with clearly noticeable scan lines because those also tend to be the ones with RGB over in 'Murica. I prefer less of the 'scanline' effect, myself, and when I emulate don't use a scanline filter at all.

It's sort of a meme, but some legitimately think it adds to the experience.

>>3108282
At other times it didn't bother it at all.
Depends entirely on the artist.
This console war reenactment is retarded. Both consoles were great and everyone here has unlimited access to both.

>>3108038
Also wanna know.

>>3112846
heh, looks like I'm not alone. Hi there.

>>3104425
It's about nostalgia. Unadjusted CRTs were the norm.

>>3114119
Nah, there're plenty of us.

>>3114110
>This console war reenactment is retarded. Both consoles were great and everyone here has unlimited access to both.

This. It's just cops&robbers silliness now