/vr/ - Retro Games

>>3013063
Half-life came around and was popular.

Because clever level design is not needed for a gaming being successful.

>>3013071
This, once the floodgates for "cinematic shooters" appeared, the was no going back

>>3013076
Basically this. From moh onwards it's been fancy corridors

Quake 2 was the exact point when it went to shit.
I'd take a "cinematic" corridor shooter over that repetitive crap anyday.

Quake 1 only works when you know you're way through the levels like the palm of your hand and are rocket jumping all over the place.
Gee the lack of any kind of map whatsoever is not a flaw, you guys, it's a FEATURE!

Low graphical fidelity of the 90s probably didn't make much difference between developing a fantasy setting or a real world alternative. However now the detalization is through the roof and developing real world settings is just more affordable in all aspects. This leads to more banal settings and with that level design is tuned to fit the real world.

An good analogy would be shooting a film vs a documentary.

>>3013104

That was my point with the OP, Quake 2 is incredibly bland and uninspired, compared to Q1's interesting and imaginative use of 3D space. I don't know where this "HL ruined FPS" meme is from. There's a whole bunch of shooters directly inspired by Quake with similar bland levels, the most blatant I can think of is Elite Force.

>>3013110
I finished Q1 for the first time just before New Year's. I had none of your gripes.

Blood and Duke 3D had interesting levels with lots of details and secrets. Q1+2 are bleak techdemos, but the MP saved it.

>>3013104
Quake 2 is actually VERY underrated when it comes to leveldesign. In some ways it's almost metroidvania style.

>>3013142
>quake
>underrated
Is this some new /v/ meme? I keep seeing kids call some of the most popular games made "underrated".

There's a thread up right now of some kid calling virtua fighter underrated.

>>3013063

Quake has the worst level design of all time.

>>3013142
If by metroidvania you mean have to backtrack the entire level because you finally got the colored key/captain head/insert random mcguffin to open a door you saw 40 minutes ago, then sure.

>>3013135
You never once got lost? I tip my fedora to you, sir, you must be a videogame savant

>>3013178
I think there was only a single point in Episode 2 where the map got me really confused. However I got no idea that there should be a game map to save me. I think that was a problem of level design there. Sticking a map wouldn't have fixed it fundamentally.

>>3013165
I love quake, but this actually has more truth to it than statements like the OP. Quake level design is great. But there are lots of places where they just seemed to randomly throw a bunch of monsters as well. I bet if you really asked Carmack and Romero about the level design and they were honest they would say they just randomly threw shit in here and there. That's not to undermine their achievements, and it's a great game, it's just this senseless "waa waa, nothing comes close" nonsense that defies logic .

>>3013148
>virtua fighter underrated.
It kinda is. Sure, 150 million Japs loved it but it gets no love in the west.

>>3013205
Ya totally wasn't an arcade hit, kid. Nobody has heard of it.

I don't know why people shit on Quake 2's level design while praising the other classics. It's still actually Doom-style level design philosophy but it's been expanded in terms of area. You still fetch keys and hit switches etc that make certain doors open, only the area is much larger.

>>3013205
>>3013206

Back when arcades were still a thing (something that is not so in the west anymore, if you'll remember) Virtua Fighter was very well-known.

So, really, you'll need to define a time period to ascertain over/under-ratedness. And even then, I'm still gonna call you a huge fucking faggot for perpetuating such cancer.

>>3013110
>>3013178
I played Quake when I was 10 and I didn't have a problem navigating the maps either. You neo gamers are impressively retarded.

Quake 2 was great, you cum guzzlers are just too busy sucking Quake 1's cock to realize it.

>>3013212
So it's now underrated because you're like 15 and didn't play it when it was new in an arcade?

>>3013071
I was just playing Half-Life disc version last night. There were more than a handful of instances where I ran into forked paths, multiple paths, secret paths with rewards or outcomes, environment interactables that act as part the puzzle, backtracking, puzzle solutions that loop back to the beginning, and it goes on. This is right after having played Quake 2, and I can say it's more or less the same thing (the good points.)

You guys are just parroting the idea that Half-Life = cinematic = modern gaming atrocities.

>>3013231

No, I'm saying the entire premise is flawed, you imbecile.

27, BTW.

>>3013269
Well I don't follow that logic. Just because the new generation hasn't of it doesn't make it underrated.

>>3013245

Both HL1 and 2 are incredible games, pointing to them as evil precursors to shitty FPS is completely retarded. There were a shitload of bad Doom ckones in the 90s that people here never talk about, it doesn't mean Doom wasn't a fucking great game. IMO Half-Life was a necessary refresher into the stagnant shooters of the time. I see no contradiction in loving both games.

>>3013276
>Both HL1 and 2 are incredible games

>>3013275

Holy shit you're fucking stupid. The entire setup for something being over- or under- rated is pure distilled carcinogen sipped out of a lead straw with frozen cobra-venom ice cubes for good measure.

That make it any easier for you dumbass?

>>3013142
Oh please. There are a few hubs and that's it. Wow, some backtracking because now you raised a bridge or have a battery to open another area. There's nothing interesting about it.

>>3013287
>That make it any easier for you dumbass?

Nope

Unreal Tournament had stupid amounts of variety for their levels which was seriously great.

Hell, even Build3D games like Blood, Duke, etc had seriously great levels based off of conventional locations yet nowadays modern games seem to make this incredibly boring.

Halflife is brilliant, but the games it spawned were not on that level. The success of Medal of Honor is largely responsible for tubelevel script FPS games. Spielberg was involved and it shows.

"Medal Of Honor was his passion project, after all, designed to give kids genuine insight into the history behind WWII. "
kek

https://web.archive.org/web/20120527113621/http://www.edge-online.com/features/making-medal-honor

>>3013063
I thought it was common knowledge that halo killed the scifi-FPS genre with its regenerating health n shit?

>>3013314
But the OP isn't about regenerating health.
>hurr I dunno, still feels like I should blame Halo somehow

>>3013071
>>3013076
Nice meme.

>>3013110
I played through Q1 recently (not having played it for over a decade and having little memory of it), and while I think a map feature would have been nice, I was never stuck or had a hard time figuring the levels out.

>>3013129
I wouldn't say Q2 had an uninspired design as much as it was developed with a theme and goal in mind from the get-go.
Q1 was originally concieved as a radically different sort of game and was retooled into a Doom style game in a hurry due to time constraints, taking what they had and making the best of it. It's hugely varied because they already had all these resources and decided to figure out the best ways to use them, rather than letting then go to waste (but also to save precious time).

It's a really cool game but it's very clear that it's aimless and lacked proper direction, it's not even fully finished. I like 2 better because I think it's a much more full and realized vision, it doesn't feel as rushed or slapped together.

>>3013090
Someone only plays shitty games.

>>3013330
>Having regeneration health doesn't in any way change how the levels are designed
ok

>>3013310
Well, you cannot judge him for the offspring the whole idea spawned. After all, it all happened because PS1 MoHs and AA were great games.

>>3013290
>Wow, some backtracking because now you raised a bridge or have a battery to open another area. There's nothing interesting about it.
It's principly the same thing as getting a yellow key card to open the yellow door. Why is opening the yellow key card door so much more interesting than crossing a bridge?

>See yellow door
>can't access
>find yellow key card
>backtrack to yellow door and open it

>See raised bridge
>can't cross it
>find switch that brings it down
>backtrack to bridge and cross it

Quake 2 level design is still Doom-style, they just changed the key system to add other mission objectives to give it the illusion of more variety but in principle you're still doing the same thing. If you're saying that Doom-style level design is dumb then that's another matter, but this post is more addressed to those that call Q2 level design boring while praising Doom's/Quake's level design.

>>3013178
Wow, get a load of this mouthbreather.

>>3013210
I agree, it plays more or less like Doom in terms of level design.

>>3013245
I absolutely agree, Q2 and HL had very fun levels most of the time.

>>3013276
I like HL2, but I think the level design is not even close to as great as HL1.

>>3013286
HL1 is incredible, HL2 is just "good", the gunplay is good and the gameplay is challenging, but it's very linear (even compared to HL1), and there's much less exploration and variation.

>>3013090
Yeah, if all you play is COD and Duke Nukem Forever.

>>3013338
Not him, but I think there are ways to have regen health which isn't shitty like Halo or COD

>>3013352
Anyone who says Doom has bad level design is a scrub.

>>3013063
Unreal 1 was still good, as was Duke3D.

>>3013350
I judge him for putting his revisionist comicbook history filter on videogames for kids like he does for movies. But yeah, the cinematic part maybe worked better for MoH than the uninspired offspring.

>>3013110
This is it my friends. The true epitome of the modern gamer and the modern attitude.

Not only does he want a map, he apparently thinks multiple detailed featured maps are the default to "expect", and "any kind of map whatsoever" is just something you need.

Because how the fuck could a human navigate and explore an environment without a map right?!

Jesus christ, put in this hellish underworld, and the first thought running through your mind is "where is my fucking map? how do i get anywhere without a map?"

Quake not "only works when you know you're way through the level", you just couldn't get into the game at all since it doesn't hold your hand, but to keep up your "cred" you invent this bullshit that those guys are doing something different.

No quake player has ever said "lack of a map is a FEATURE".... but in my opinion it IS BETTER without a map... there might be a mod out there that will give you a map, but I guarantee you it'll be for other purposes NOT "oh i don't know where I'm going in single player".

>>3013381

Doom is meant to be pistolstarted on UV, I doubt you did that when you were 7.if you play Doom without pistolstarting it actually becomes a very boring game, they just gave you the option to keep your weapons for casual gamers. The truth is, Doom levels are some of the best designed levels in any FPS, when taken on their own, meticulously balanced for ammo conservation and strategic approach in clearing out rooms.

>>3013393
Modern gamers just want a gps and a line to follow.
>>3013110
Please just leave.

>>3013397
>>3013403
>muh pistol maps
>muh mid '90s born retardation
>muh halo upbringing
>muh playing dewm because I think it makes me speshal
Top kek. At this point I can run through all of Doom in one setting on Nightmare without breaking a sweat you fucking tryhard. And believe me I am smiling at you actually believing pistol starting Doom maps is at all a challenge in 2016. Nice double post retard :^)

>>3013381
>Does that imply navigating Doom maps makes you smart or a skilled gamer?
Pretty sure I never stated that anywhere, you must be projecting that. I merely say that it's good and if you can't handle it then you're probably below average IQ.

>Because I played through Doom when I was 7
So did I. Hardcore retro cred, bruh!

>(you weren't born then)
I'm older than Doom.

>so it really isn't a big deal.
The only one here insinuating this is you, keep projecting.

>You really feel special for going to COD to Doom don't you? :^)
Never played COD, but man you sure love to project onto others, gives you a big old boner, doesn't it?

>>3013386
It's funny that you accuse others of being a tryhard when you're being a maximum tryhard right now.

>Why don't you go back to COD? I beat Doom when I was 7, you weren't even born yet, ::::^^^^^))))
That's tryhard as fuck, you're like that fat ginger kid at the schoolyard who always smelled of farts and lotion, he would always try to start console war discussions and insist he was really hardcore at videogames whereas nobody else cared or wanted to talk to him.

>>3013409
>>3013386
>>3013310
>>3013110
>>3013386
>>3013381
>:^)
>kek
>dank memes

Do me a favor and fuck off back to /v/

>>3013276
hl1 had interesting ideas but most of the enemies sucked and most of the time you wandered through non descript offices and warehouses and air ducts with nothing happening, fighting the occasional headcrab or barnacle (yawn). It had its awesome moments- blowing up tanks and helicopters with the gauss gun

hl2 was amazing from an artistic point of view (nice visuals and sounds) but it was crap as a game--- it started the philosophy of fpses being a sequence of cutscenes (scripted sequences) where the action is just something you did in between and they were careful to not ever challenge you in any way. Episode 2, I will ever hate it for the fucking stealth health regenerating it had (you will notice medkits magically spawning around the combat set pieces). hl2 was a fucking collection of setpieces

>>3013314
It's common knowledge that whatever fps you don't like was the one that ruined the genre forever.

>>3013459
I never claimed I was a pro-gamer.
I'm sorry I slighted your ego, Dio Brando, this must be very difficult for you.

Also did you reply to yourself?

>>3013465
Mods abandoned us like a year ago.

I actually wanted to talk about how Quake 2's levels are more modern-style than Quake 1's, or Doom/Build games, but this thread went to shit.

To answer the OP though, the trend toward more linear and cinematic was simply the march of time. It's something players and designers thought was cool (and still do, if you look at mass preferences). No single game was to blame, it was simply the dying off of arcade style mentality and design. Maps weren't "boards" to be solved and optimized for time/score anymore, games became more and more about being on an immersive adventure.

We're so swamped with that style now that a lot of people forget that it was ever new and exciting.

>>3013457
>(you will notice medkits magically spawning around the combat set pieces)
Oh, it does that? That's kind of lame. I mean I guess it's a step above COD regen health, but that seems like it wouldn't want to challenge me with resource management.

Like, it makes it feel like there's less of a point to exploring for health and being a better player to avoid damage.

>hl2 was a fucking collection of setpieces
As much as I like the game, this is true, the game has very limited replayability, Half-Life I feel had much more interesting levels, featuring many uses of hubs and the like. HL2 had nothing like say, Blast Pit, every level is basically go from point A to point B, which doesn't have to be a bad thing, but as a sequel to a game like Half-Life, it falls short.

How many actual times did you have to divert from your set path to do sometghing to progress?
Like, Blast Pit had you power up three separate systems to flashfry the monster in the test silo, in order to get down under it. There were a bunch of things like that, to varying degrees.

In 2, the only major time I can remember is when you climb under the train bridge.

>>3013581
>>3013457
I never noticed medkits magically spawning in Ep2, but in standard HL2 I did notice that the contents of supply boxes were determined by whether you had low health/energy or not. It gives you medkits if you need them and ammo if you're full. I don't care for that sort of thing; let me play the level with amounts determined by a (competent) designer, not an algorithm.

>>3013364
>which isn't shitty like Halo or COD
At the risk of derailing, is there any consensus on /vr/ about whether Halo is a shitty game? I'm in the "it's pretty good" category and I would certainly take it over Goldeneye any day of the week.

(polite sage for notretro)

>>3013765
/vr/ in general probably hates it because it's newer and popular, although the Halo 1 is almost within the retro year range. The first time I played Halo I didn't think it was that great but it got better the more I played it. To me Halo games often have a different style of design that doesn't fit in with either early FPS games like Quake or linear cinematic FPS's like Half Life. I also think Halo is generally funner to replay, in a large part due to the interesting enemy design/AI and weapon design.

>>3013852
I find Halo terrible to replay because the bad gameplay, mechanics, uninteresting enemy design, poor AI, bad weapons, poor level design (both mechanically and graphically)

Disagree completely. T3 era Quake game engine, the HL engine (that means all half life mods as well, Goldsrc ones), and the T4 era (all mappable with GTK Radiant vs. worldcraft / hammer)... these were all fun, incredible games to map for and do texture art for. They had great communities and spawned a ton of great mods and projects (Darkplaces!). I'd hardly call any of it boring. It's been wicked awesome!

>>3013893
>Doom babies love Halo. It's what they grew up on.
What does this even mean?

>>3013893
>cancerous
It's not Halo's fault every FPS for the next decade did the regenerating health thing. I don't like it either, but it was well-implemented in Halo and made sense for that game.

>>3013303
Build3D games' problem is they all tried to make fully 3D environments with the engine that didnt handle them that well in a first place.

>>3013409
>>3013403
Stop that fucking shit both of you motherfuckers. Difficulty levels are here for the purpose of giving players of every skill, experience and preferences an equal amount of fun, not for your pathetic fallomethrics contest.

>>3013852
you can't mention halo with out mentioning lan/halo 2 online. it brought the explosive deathmatch of doom excitement from the early 90s to 2000s console players. it was affordable and easy to get setup compared to lan in the 90s.

>in b4 muh halo kiddies and i was playing MUDs in 80s, gaylo sux

the numbers agree, halo brought online FPS from PC enthusiasts to frat guys in dorms

>>3013063
I'd say that's nostalgia kicking in OP. I agree that once multiplayer fps games starting become popular after halo the single player modes were largely ignored by developers and not given the time they deserved. However, there have been plenty of not-retro fps games that don't have bad level design, you just have to not play cod or halo.

>Hard Reset
>Deus Ex (and human revolution, never played invisible war)
>Bioshock
>F.E.A.R
>Mirror's edge

etc etc. What you are noticing OP (assuming not bait), is that fps games in general are focusing on a story more than having each 'level' be a unique challenge. Many modern FPS games ditch the level system entirely and opt for an open world, which can be great when done right but I understand how many people would prefer the uniqueness each level in games like quake provides.

I don't play FPS games often (mostly rpg's and roller coaster tycoon, with some random games from different genres here and there), but I find that quake-tier level design isn't so much as dead as becoming obsolete as new gameplay mechanics become a universal standard. (grenades and tactical equipment, skills, realistic sprinting and aiming down sights, cover mechanics, throwing weapons, crafting items, stealth mechanics in general (including weapon silencers and the like). Can you imagine how easy quake and doom would be if you went back and added all this?). In fps games where your enemies have bullets I've noticed that to compensate for health regeneration it feels like you die much quicker and actually need the health regen to survive most of the time (assuming you play on hard mode).

There's still been plenty of shit since Quake, and you are of course entitled to your own opinion

>>3013893
>Doom babies love Halo. It's what they grew up on.
Are you sure you have any idea what you're talking about? Doom came out in 1993 and Halo came out in 2001. Doom is older than most 4chan users.

>>3013994
Can we get a slow clap? Holy shit.

>>3013393
>Because how the fuck could a human navigate and explore an environment without a map right?!
>Jesus christ, put in this hellish underworld, and the first thought running through your mind is "where is my fucking map? how do i get anywhere without a map?"
kek, not retro but this post made me think of that upcoming ubisoft game Far Cry Primal or whatever. The game is supposed to be set in prehistoric times with you fighting mammoths and shit like that, and there's this fucking GPS satellite map you have in the corner telling you where everything is. So fucking immersion breaking holy hell.

I guess that's the kinda gamer you're replying to m8. The one that grew up on shithouse games just like these.

>>3013947
A lot of people seem to forget that only half your health actually regenerated in Halo 1, full health regen wasn't until the sequel. Also some older games like Duke Nukem 3D toyed with the heath regen idea in the form of unlimited drinkable water and being able to carry health packs with you.

>>3014042
>it brought the explosive deathmatch of doom excitement
No it didn't.

Doom was fast, tactical, and hard.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyNaYSGoTdk

Halo was slow creeping garbage where half the play was based on where you were spawned and how many hours it took you to finally crawl to cover. They should have just called it what it was, Space Lord of The Rings.

Also, it didn't bring FPS from PC enthusiasts to frat guys. Besides, goldeneye and PD were what popularized console FPS first. Neither of which would be "from PC enthusiasts".

>>3014359
>Space Lord of The Rings
not only is this not clever in the slightest it also has nothing to do with multiplayer which you guys were arguing about

like you clearly just wanted to throw out what you thought was a good zinger and I'm cringing hard at your post

>>3014365
>it also has nothing to do with multiplayer which you guys were arguing about

You caught me. Gameplay mechanics never interact with multiplayer. Le cringe m'edge good sir.

It's a shame that people shit on Goldeneye on here just because it was released on console.

Because I found the experiments in completely non-linear FPS level design very interesting at the time.

>>3014345
The water was often limited and it was 1 health per sip. Hardly health regen. considering you could just respawn a health pack and it would be close to that. It would also not regen in battle. A healthkit also has limited use as well. So it wasn't so much regen health as it was closer to a constricted form of megahealth, but in usable form.
IF your considering those health regen you might as well consider health pickups entirely "health regen".

>>3013071
This but that's not an insult to Half-Life either. Half-Life was really well made but a ton of people copying it just thought everyone wanted more linearity and scripted events instead of scripted stuff on top of well made levels.

>>3013923
>>3013947
>>3014160
>replying to doom baby guy

Come on he's been trying to force "doom baby" as an actual thing here forever now.

>>3014359
>Doom was fast, tactical, and hard.
But not very varied, 9 times out of 10 it's about Super Shotgun jousting, or who can get the SSG first to begin jousting.

Not defending Halo btw, just saying that single player is usually more interesting than DM when it comes to Doom.

>>3013765
Never played any but I hear some people say the first one is supposed to be good.
It doesn't look very interesting though.

>>3014359
>Also, it didn't bring FPS from PC enthusiasts to frat guys.
It kind of did though, Doom was everywhere in the 90s, people spent their lunch breaks playing Doom and Deathmatching with each other.
You bet your ass that fratboys played it, because it was on every computer in every school and college.

>>3014876
/vr/ shits on Goldeneye? Where?
I'll be first to admit it's a bit rough around the edges, but nobody can deny it was a fun game.

>>3014345
>Also some older games like Duke Nukem 3D toyed with the heath regen idea in the form of unlimited drinkable water and being able to carry health packs with you.
That's still resource management.

The portable medkits were limited and had limited use, they were basically a powerup item, and had to be used manually.

The water is a fallback, and slow, you also can't find it everywhere.
Some of the hardest levels in the game feature no fire hydrants, toilets, drinking fountains or fountains, also leaving you with little health.

>>3013063
he says while posting the most boring quake game

>>3014815
wtf does "Space Lord of the Rings" have to do with game mechanics or multiplayer

>>3014204
You could claim that about any game.

>>3015052
Honestly, 3 is the most boring of the original games, and that's not to say it's bad, not at all, but it only features deathmatch and multiplayer, there isn't any real single player, there's a campaign, but it's just a series of instances of faux multiplayer in a bunch of arenas. The final boss is just yet another bot like the others, on an arena you've already seen, they just crank up his difficulty.

Quake 1 and 2 had exploration and secrets, and progression, one way or another. If you die, you go back, you can effectively beat the games, conquer them, there's real bosses.

Quake 2 is at least as fun as the first one. At least in my opinion.

>>3015219
Don't bother responding to him, he's in the throes of terminal aspergers.

Just report and ignore.

>>3015278
ah come on, does that honestly sound like a good analysis to you? 3 isn't supposed to be a single player game, it's a different game entirely. The AI was added on for amusement, or for people temporarily without internet access.

>>3015376
Well I guess, but I just find a properly crafted single player campaign to be more exciting than most kinds of multiplayer.

I think it's because I loved 1 and 2 so much, and expected another game like it when I first got to see it.

>>3013076
This is actually true.

While Half-Life did have good map design, the issue is that other devs saw it and put its success on the story experience, which while partially true, ignores that everything about it was done rather well. They took the well designed maps for granted since most FPS already had that.

So when new stuff came out, they focused entirely on one aspect while ignoring others.

This happens a lot when a new game comes out in a genre thats different from its predecessors. It happened with WoW: which was a full package of things being done right. But other devs and publishers saw "You can solo and quest all day long" and that was all they focused on for years.

I like Quake 2.

>>3017279
it's a good game

>>3017885
>play a webm without sound
>the sounds are nonetheless playing in my head

>>3013765
First halo has great combat and amazing atmosphere, its only massive flaw were the 10 times per level copy/pasted bland rooms that made up at least 50% of the level design.
It's kind of like Serious Sam where the combat is entertaining enough that great level design isn't needed, although in a totally different style.

>>3017879
>3D mesh explosions
who the fuck thought it was a good idea at the time?

>>3017879
I love this visible bobbing in classic id games.

Doom had it and in Quake 1 & 2 it was very noticeable. It gave the game a certain weight. Doom 3 had it too, you felt like you had mass and weight.

Duke Nukem 3D also had this visible bobbing and weight but 3D Realms didn't do it as good as id but it was still great.

On the other hand Valve's games lacked weight. Maybe it was the HEV suit but the movement never felt so good as id's and 3D Realm's games (Prey included). I liked HL1 and HL2 but I always felt disoriented and detached from the world, like a floating camera instead of having mass and weight.

>implying you didn't fap to this

>>3018190
I didn't have Internet back then, no access to magazines or video cassettes and no cable TV so don't judge!

>>3018179
Half-Life 1.0.0.5 retail had Quake's bobbing. After the GOTY version came out, they redid the bobbing to what you are now used to, the front to back bobbing. In Day of Defeat, they changed this to a strictly across bobbing, and along with a slow ass turtle move speed, that definitely conveyed a sense of weight. With the Source engine, they changed it to an Unreal engine 2.0 type bobbing (sideways 8 figure) but it was very subtle. Instead, the "bobbing" mostly came from a delayed swing from the weapon model.

I liked Unreal Tournament 2003/2004's sideways 8 figure style bobbing, felt very smooth.

>>3018743
bobbing is detrimental to killing people online. it's usually turned off

>>3018179
I liked the camera roll in HL1, shame they took it out.

I think it's still possible to have it if you swap dll files, but I don't want to risk a VAC ban just to get that back.

>>3017885
I had lots of fun "throwing" enemies over ledges with the super shotgun and watch them drop into water and sink underwater. Then I'd listen them drowning. I was cruel.

>>3019234
This is why I installed Half-Life retail (1.0.0.5). You get CD audio back and none of that shitty 22khz WAV or Steam Pipeline's MP3 V2. You also have that amazing classic menu with all the animations and bleep bloops. The only problem is the console wasn't really a thing until you patch upward a bit, and you get the sanic fast crowbar bug where you gib the shit out of corpses. But yeah my copy of Half-Life has Quake style bobbing and the look tilt.

>>3013314
What? Regenerating health was one of the better things to come out of more modern shooters. Sure, it's not easy to get the regen mechanics perfect, but it beats the fuck out of scouring a mostly cleared map for medpacks after saving and then reaslising you've got 5 health.

>>3021487
I'm not agreeing nor disagreeing, but I think this thread is going down a different road now.

>>3015278
>fun, enjoyable and challenging deathmatch
>boring
I too find things that are enjoyable, done well, and worth my time boring.

>>3021487
Please kill yourself you fucking moronic cocksucker. You have no place on this board.

>>3021487
>Regenerating health was one of the better things to come out of more modern shooters.
I disagree, most modern shooters do regen health terribly.

The only games I've played that do regen health well is the Far Cry games, (because you can't really sit on your ass and wait, if you don't do something, you're fucked), and even then I prefer Doom/Half-Life/Duke 3D style health management, it's just better.

I didn't think Wolf 09' was a terrible game, but I'll detract lots of points for having Cowadoodie style health regen, absolutely inexcusable, I fucking hate that CoD style regen health is an accepted standard now.

>>3021487
Have you considered that if you've reached 5 health, you're playing the game wrong and are a bad player? Maybe you should improve instead of whining that you're a fucking casual? People like you are the main reason this industry has gone to shit. One day it will probably be considered bad game design altogether if you're even able to die in a fucking game. Get back to smoking cocks asshole.

>>3013063
unreal had real good evil design and that was after quake

because companies had to rush out games like blood 2, shogo and sin so they didnt get smashed by half life which they did anyway.

>>3021487
>Regenerating health was one of the better things to come out of more modern shooters
Anything that encourages boring play (waiting, farming, camping, etc.) is bad design.

I believe its the shift from levels created in a vacuum to levels created to be interconnected/progressive, leading to map design being less creative overall

>>3013063
goldeneyes level design killed quakes

I never really understood that claim. Even when going back to old games like that now, it feels like the map/level design in them is total dogshit. Claiming that it somehow got worse is beyond me.

>>3023707
regen health encourages quick pounding, because you got to bring your opponent down to zero before they can escape and regen. Regen health discourages waiting, because it gives you no advantage over the opponent. The longer you wait, the more health they regen, and the harder it will be to bring them down. While health pickups encourage farming (get the pickups so your opponent can't recover health) and camping (stay near the resources, enemies need to go there eventually).

>>3024456
there it is
the dumbest thing i've read all day

So, I found a thing. You lot may be interested in this thing.
>>3025864

>>3024471
Except he's right? Not that I actually like regen health.

>>3013110

HURR WHERE DO I GO HURR

>>3025931
except literally everything he said is wrong

>>3026119
Are you implying farming pickups isn't a thing?

>>3026124
if you're talking about multiplayer its called resource management and map control. Map control is a central concept to all competitive FPS from CS to Quake. Well cs is about controlling the map to force the other team to play a certain way map control in quake is literally bunny hopping around the arena so nobody else has a chance to get a healthpack/gun/quad damage. I suppose you retards that run around like chickens with your heads cut off in call of duty and halo wouldn't understand those kind of things.

>>3026124
maybe if you're an eternal bottom scraper

>>3026140
So that is why competitive people seem to prefer Rocket Arena, the map control ...

>>3026140
I like the assumptions you're directing at me, but you're just arguing semantics right now.

>>3026151
rocket arena is the counter strike without the economy/money. My friends even call it "CS mode" when we want to play some quake.

>>3026140
>so nobody else has a chance to get a healthpack/gun/quad damage
hmm, that sounds familiar ...

>>3024456
>pickups encourage farming (get the pickups so your opponent can't recover health) and camping (stay near the resources, enemies need to go there eventually)

yeah

>>3026183
bunny hopping around the map is not camping. Campers get slain by players with superior movement, railgun campers are ez frags

>>3026185
hanging around certain places on the map instead of engaging is not camping? Learning something new every day

>>3026189
certain places? You mean the entire map and every powerup spawn. Deathmatchers have routes they follow they know how long each powerup takes to respawn and they want to control all of them not just a few, not sure how that is hanging around certain places...

>>3026192
I like how you mention the opponent, and engaging it in your statement. Clearly "death match" means "collectathon". If only we had a reason to engage the opponent over fussing with the stage ...

>>3013245
Half-Life itself isn't the problem, it's a great game. The problem is that devs saw what Half-Life did and tried copying it superficially, without understanding why Half-Life was such a great game.

There's literally nothing wrong with Quake 2 levels. While technically small maps, the entire hubs make up large levels, and that pleases my claustrophobia.

>>3015023
Remember when everyone and their brother had a computer in the 90s and they were so popular that even Alpha Alpha Alpha had them to keep track of their spreadsheets on beer pong scores and wedgies they've given along with their favorite football player yardage?

Neither, do I.

>>3013364
>shitty regen health

What was wrong with the way Halo did it? Hybrid systems with a shield over a conventional health bar are much better than Call of Duty style regenerating health.

>>3031749
But the shield thing was only Halo 1, wasn't it? I think the newer games used a system closer to CoD.

>>3014969
This.

You CANNOT fault Half-Life for what it was. With the exception of Xen, it is still one of the finest FPS-campaigns in gaming to this day.

>>3017279
So do I :3

>>3017879
I forgot that level as I always skip it on my playthroughs.

>>3017885
Ok now I want to play it again.

>>3031752
Halo CE had the hybrid system, in 2 and beyond it was pure regeneration yeah.

>>3031749
It still comes down to take cover until your shield regenerates. A better hybrid system is the Riddick/Wolfenstein way where you regenerate in chunks.

>>3031785
No? It encourages you to hit hard, stay mobile and to not let yourself be surrounded/mobbed because then you start losing health.

>>3028920
I never said fratboys had computers, I said they would play Doom when given the chance, given that colleges had computer labs, and that Doom was on every computer in the world at the time, a bunch of fratboys played it.
Likewise, kids at junior high and highschool would play Doom in the Computer Science Labs.

If you had access to a computer in 93, you probably played Doom

>>3014969
No, it was absolutely NOT "really well made" it was fucking amateur level stuff, level-design-wise, compared to the stuff Romero and Petersen churned out in DooM1-2 and Q1.

>>3031831
Half-Life and Doom were striving for completely different things so comparing their level design is retarded.

Also, I fucking love Sandy, he's an amazing guy, but his Doom levels have a pretty large variation in quality, some of his levels are just not very good.

>>3013148

Considering quake is still being played competitively online.. you could probably dismiss those kids as grade-a retro-hipsters.

>>3013148
Well, everyone on this board seems to think that retro gaming is a "niche" hobby despite the millions of people that do it.

>>3018152

Quake 2 graphics were jaw-droppingly good at its time.

>>3026151
>>3026180

Mulitplayer in any quake mode is centered around map control (which goes hand in hand with item control). It's not as apparent on the casual scale of things, which is why just fooling around in Rocket Arena is a great way to enjoy the game if you don't want to get too tactical about things. I personally only played RA and CA (Clan Arena, on dm6 mostly) for years before I even got into the "proper" 1on1 game.

>>3021848
A blooboobloo, someone likes something I don't, better call them a casual.

>>3021810
>most modern shooters do regen health terribly.

Not saying it's always good, just that it has its place.

>>3034051
Not really, the only good way to do regen health is partially.

But quake had shitty simplistic level design. So did unreal. For what it's worth HL level design is fucking awesome, despite being linear. The part where you have to activate burner room to get rid of the alien monster is brilliant. So many memorable levels in general.

>>3035276
The original quake's levels were nowhere near simplistic. Except for a couple of levels in E4, I give you that.

And yeah, hl had great levels. In particular the multiplayer ones - literally couldn't have been better for casual DM.

>>3013071
this is half meme and half truth
HL had pretty good map design, striking a good balance between being designed to be engaging during gameplay while feeling more like real-world layouts. It went further than the other games of the day at this.

Stage designers that followed liked the idea of trying to make more realistically designed stages, but they didn't give as much thought to how interesting they were, so you ended up with shit like straight runs through some hallways and into then into the next building, or run down some straight-ass corridor in some forest shit.

fuck, same thing with cinematics -- HL1 tells its story with the player in control the whole time, but lazy game devs realized that cutscenes were easier

>>3013197
people seem to think that Q1 map design is some perfect masterpiece despite Q1 being a rushed as shit game
They're great stages overall, but people overlook their issues too quickly.

>>3013110
nearly all of the Q1 maps are tight enough to not get hopelessly lost in
There's a handful of points where it's like, "man, I could do with a map," but it's not a crippling flaw, just a minor inconvenience.

>>3014359
>Halo was slow creeping garbage where half the play was based on where you were spawned and how many hours it took you to finally crawl to cover.
that's pretty wrong, at least in MP in Halo CE
it wasn't fast (fuck, I'm pretty sure your run speed in Doom is still faster than driving in a Warthog), but it was a definite twitch game (in part due to the fact that your starting pistol was OP as fuck, approaching the utility of the sniper rifle), and it didn't emphasize cover at all in multiplayer, you tended to just get shot by mexicans if you weren't moving and weaving and killing shit first

and CE's regen health was actually reasonable, encouraging aggressive play (both in terms of trying to kill quickly and in terms of running out toward the enemy)

desu doom level design wasn't that great.

Blood and Hexen level design. Now we're talking. Blood had great non-linear levels, while hexen was so non linear you could get literally get lost and have no idea what to do. Thats good map design, but not good gameplay design. Part of the drawback of Hexen.

I think level design peaked with games like Hexen, Thief, Realms of the Haunting, and Blood.

The Doom idea of "find all keys them move on to next level" never really held that much interest, you slog through a map and get to the exit. Sure some of them are a fun ride, but the gameplay is usually the same.

Some levels in TNT and Plutonia had good enough non-linear design.

>>3013110
I could find my way through quake with no problem at age 10. I hope you're not retarded or something anon.

>>3035852
>want to replay Hexen.
>can't maintain focus on the PC version
>N64 memory pack is corrupted and can't hold a save
>Saturn version runs at a nauseating 10-15 fps (and the battery is dead)

>>3035852
>Thats good map design
Nope, certainly isn't. Part of good maps is them guiding the player, without the player noticing. If they fight the player, the dev is just a sadistic ass.

>>3035872
>can't maintain focus on the PC version
you only have yourself to blame. Close your browser(s), fullscreen the game, and learn to not give a damn about the distractions.

>>3035876
Ayy, alright. Attempting to install the CD version via dosbox and figuring out how to use a Doom sourceport.

>>3035890
If you're going to play hexen, play it through zdoom, with the HEXEN wad.

>>3035873
Its good map design, but not good gameplay design. That literally what I said in my post. Having a world a player can get lost in is the utlimate non-linear design. Hexen just didn't have the extra parts needed to make it work (things like side quests and NPCs that would make it more like oblivion or morrowind, where its non linear as fuck, but you still have a quest marker or something to follow, or can mark spots on a map.

The level design of Hexen is pretty decent, not amazing, but the hub system really sets it apart. The gameplay itself if the drawback. The switch hunts in particular.

>>3035898
>Its good map design, but not good gameplay design
The two go hand in hand. A map that does not play well, is not good.

>That literally what I said in my post
and I disregarded it, because it's nonsense.

>Having a world a player can get lost in is the utlimate non-linear design
wrong, entirely wrong. Non-linear map design is hard as fuck, because you got to account for all the potential paths the player can take, and still model the world for them.

>quest marker
get out. Quest markers are bullshit and an immediate admission of failure for map and gameplay design.

>the hub system really sets it apart
Hubs are an aspect of non-linear design. Trapping the player is not.

>>3035903
I'm detecting more anger than actual substance in this post.

Level design and gameplay can be entirely separate. Gorgeous levels with shitty slow gameplay and repetitive enemies and weapons.

Imagine if Diakatana had amazingly designed levels. It would still have really crappy gameplay.

In my opinion non-linear design is the best, as it give you different options to move through a map, and increases replayability. Yes is it hard to get right, but its still a desirable aspect of level design, and something doom and most of its clones ignored.

A quest marker would probably have helped hexen with the switch finding, especially across different maps.
Any game where you have to refer to the walkthrough to progress (like Hexen or Realms of the Haunting) isn't really good game design. No one wants to wander the same level over and over again not knowing what to do or where to go (or even worse, the same 3 or 4 maps like in hexen).

>Hubs are an aspect of non-linear design. Trapping the player is not.
Not sure what trapping the player has to do with hub systems, seems an entirely unrelated remark there.

>>3035898
>If you're going to play hexen, play it through zdoom, with the HEXEN wad.
this
its the only doom engine game i can't bear on vanilla

>>3035898
Got it working, looks great. Whats the best sound option? I know the PC version doesn't have the best music anyway, but I'm not sure what the difference in all these sound options are besides OPL FM.

>>3035920
Hexen default is pretty brutal. I never beat the game before getting it on N64.

>>3013148
>Quake 2
>not constantly being called shit compared to the others
>the literal definition of underrated

>>3035947
I just left everything as default in the sounds options. my MIDI device is set to "fmod"

>>3013063
Halo ruined the FPS genre by popularizing casual gameplay.

Quake is where the whole "brown and grey sci-fi FPS" started.

>>3036061
What do you think 'casual gameplay' is and what makes you think Halo has it?

Counter-Strike has interesting level design, albeit it was multiplayer.

>>3036061
consoles in general did this. Doom on console was pretty casual.

>>3036179
real life is full of grey and brown. its how you make something look "realistic" what you meant to say was "Quake is where the whole 'Dark, Gritty, Atmospheric FPS' started"

I always remembered quake as having a more medieval feel than a sci fi. Sure there are slipgates and laser troopers in the first episode, but the rest of the game is predominantly castles, knights, demons and wooden doors and portals.

>>3036186
Weapon limit and health regen.

>>3036254
Except health regen in Halo CE made sense and was well implemented, encouraging an aggressive playstyle.

And how is forcing you to make choices more 'casual' than letting you carry everything?

>be 16
>bought generations earlier to install CS
>oh right half life, I played the demo of that a long fucking time ago let's play it
>get to zen
>fucking stuck no idea where the fuck I'm supposed to go at some later part
>can't even navigate this shit with noclip on
>quit game

and that's why modern games are straight corridor shooters.

>>3036279
I don't know about casual, but it's pretty obvious they made the 2 weapon limit to simplify controls for gamepads. I remember Duke 3D had a hotkey that circled between your 2 last used weapons that was probably where the limit came from.

If you praise Q1 and shit on Q2 then you're just delusional.

Quake 1 had a better soundtrack and enemies.
Quake 2 had better weapons.
Both have boring level design compared to Doom or Doom II.

>>3036314
That seems pretty unlikely, many PC shooters had a two button next/previous weapon cycle option that could have been copied. And many console shooters let you carry every weapon.

If it was 'obviously' anything I would call it a deliberate design choice.

>>3036368
>Quake 1 had a better soundtrack
lol no

>>3036374
>And many console shooters let you carry every weapon.
After Halo none of them did.

>>3035849
>people seem to think that Q1 map design is some perfect masterpiece despite Q1 being a rushed as shit game
>They're great stages overall, but people overlook their issues too quickly.

So much this.

I love the game, but when I play it, it's VERY apparent that the game is rushed and unfinished.
Masters Of Doom kind of explains a lot of the issues behind this.

As good as a game as it is, I will hold Wolf3D, Doom, Quake 2 and Half-Life in varying degrees of higher regards because they're much more complete visions and development wasn't a rushed compromise.

>>3036368
>>3036408

Ima let you finish but.. Q1 has the best bunny-hopping of all time.

>>3036279
>And how is forcing you to make choices more 'casual' than letting you carry everything?
Because some games don't do it right at all.

Look at DNF, you can only carry two weapons, but the weapons are all based on DN3D weapons, and those weapons simply do not work in a good way for 2 weapon limit.

>>3036290
How can you not get through Xen? It's a loopy place but it doesn't take a lot of time to figure out.

>>3036314
I think it's more about realism, in real life, it rapidly becomes cumbersome as fuck to carry more than two guns.

>>3036380
>Wolf 09 lets you carry everything
>HL2 lets you carry everything
>Doom 3 lets you carry everything
>Far Cry lets you carry four guns at a time, anything you find or unlock you own and can go and get at your leisure, you also carry a knife, two kinds of grenades and two kinds of explosives
>Bioshock lets you carry everything
>Shadow Warrior 2013 lets you carry everything
>Prey lets you carry everything
>Painkiller lets you carry everything
>Necrovision lets you carry everything
>Rage lets you carry everything and the kitchen sink

>>3036320
I like everything about q2 except the levels and how the monsters were used.

duke nukem 3d best game
anyone play the map Taygeta? A+ design rite?

>>3036427
Resistance: Fall of Man let you have everything as well. And yeah obviously it has to be done right, not sure realism applies to MC but whatever.

>>3036205
>Hexen, Thief, Realms of the Haunting, and Blood.
This guy knows whats up, interesting looking levels that are FUN TO PLAY.
Fucking majority of the DOOM maps and megawads you see either have;
>Very minimal map design old DOOM textures, probably small. trying to intimate Id maps confusing nature, mistaking the original DOOM maps for masterpieces and trying to replicate something that isn't that good to begin with.
>Huge levels with some great architecture, either there are WAY TO MANY enemy's making the map tedious or there are barely any enemy's making the game just a stroll through a good looking map.

>>3013063
They learned how to actually design good levels. I'll take Thief 1 and 2 over quake 2 any day.

>>3036458
>old DOOM textures, probably small. trying to intimate Id maps confusing nature, mistaking the original DOOM maps for masterpieces and trying to replicate something that isn't that good to begin with.
There's like, two megawads that actually focuses on this, everything else taking cues from original maps is just sporadic inspiration or homages to the really good maps or select parts of maps.

Also, Hexen had super boring level design, Quake and Quake 2 kicks it's ass.

>CTRL+F
>Turok

Not a single mention of Turok 1 and 2's level design? Especially Turok 2.

>>3036551
levels aren't Turok 2's strong point

>>3035919
>Level design and gameplay can be entirely separate
only in your mind.

>Gorgeous
fuck gorgeous, it needs to work. The rest is just window dressing.

>with shitty slow gameplay and repetitive enemies and weapons
You know damn well that the issue debated is the exact opposite. Clean mechanical design, but levels disrupting the flow, misleading the player, killing the pacing, sucking the motivation, it's all been done, and it's real.

>In my opinion non-linear design is the best
You said that already. What you fail to understand is that you can completely fuck up non-linear levels, making them painful to play.

>its still a desirable aspect of level design
occasionally, yes. I didn't claim otherwise.

>something doom and most of its clones ignored
Doom is one of the occasions where you do not want to fuck with the player's objectives. Not if there's a single objective, and a timer.

>Any game where you have to refer to the walkthrough to progress (like Hexen or Realms of the Haunting) isn't really good game design
Aka, where the map is so fucked up, that it fails to communicate current objectives (notice the plural, fucking non-linear design)

>No one wants to wander the same level over and over again not knowing what to do or where to go
It's almost like you acknowledge that non-linear design is not an indicator of good map design.

>A quest marker would probably have helped
Quest markers translate to "I can not communicate the current objectives to the player using in-game and in-world means, so I need to rely on an artificial disruption. That's called bad design, map or gameplay, take your poison.

>Not sure what trapping the player has to do with hub systems
Nothing. Hubs are a staple of non-linear design. You suggested that confusing the player, trapping them in endless mazes of twisty little passages, all alike, is a good thing. It seems like you confused the two as "non-linear map design"

>2016
>people are still dissecting posts and replying with an essay to each sentence

I'm playing Doom with the Brutal Doom mod, and I don't enjoy maze-like maps. As a kid, I did because that's all there was, but honestly, spending 10 minutes running around a map where everyone's dead already, looking for a button, a key, or a door, is plain boring. Sometimes it's as lame as having to go way way back for a door, which forces you to re-explore everything.

>press a button
>something out of sight happens

I hate this shit.

>>3036551
>>3036617
The River of Souls in Turok 2 is possibly my favorite level ever made, but the quality of level design in that game dips significantly about halfway through.

>>3037259
Try the "Scythe or "Scythe 2" mapset anon

>>3037259
I've never understood this, outside of a few maps, you should be able to discern where you are supposed to be go. It is not a literal maze in most cases.

>>3037259
This was my problem with Doom. I understand that it's great for level design for the yellow door to not sit 10 feet from the keycard, but when you have to think too hard about what the fuck I just unlock, starts to drag down the experience.

>>3013063
Because kids today skip geometry and architecture courses altogether.

>>3017879
>>3017885
Damn, those 60fps webms look good.

Even though I like the level design of Quake 2, I feel Q1 had a more appealing art style. Q2 looks very generic, albeit well designed.

>>3036720
In the last quote you admit that what you say has nothing do with the subject at hand, so I'm just going to assume thats the way you roll. Your post makes much more sense when I realize its just gibberish not related to the subject.

Please be clear and concise. What exactly it is you are angry about, and why.

>playing doom on a timer
kek. I guess speedrunners and people who like immersion are just different breeds. I can't really see any reason to discuss level design with someone who thinks running to the exit as fast as possible is how to FPS.

You know damn well having a good quest marker in hexen would have solved quite a few problems. Try to look past your distaste of quest markers and probably your hatred of TES style open world games, and just think about what it would have done for hexens gameplay. it would mean drongos such as yourself wouldn't get lost while "running to the exit".

Hexen is a well designed game. Its designed to be extremely difficult and confusing, and it succeeds.

>>3019279
>Then I'd listen them drowning.
!!
Monsters can drown? I never knocked them off the ledge because I didn't want to leave them alive, but this changes everything!

>>3037259
Do you have ADHD?
Pretty much none of the original maps are any hard to navigate at all.

Also Brutal Doom is brutally mediocre, try some different gameplay mods.

>>3037401
>I understand that it's great for level design for the yellow door to not sit 10 feet from the keycard
That's not what made Doom great though.

>but when you have to think too hard about what the fuck I just unlock
It's not fucking Hexen, Doom level design is straightforward as fuck.

>>3017879
>>3017885
Fuck, i need to finish them addons. Official ones are great, what can you say about Juggernaut/Zaero? Are they go well with Yamagi Quake II engine?

>>3018179
In HL1 there was headbobbing, but i feel like it is somewhat out of sync with actual moving speed and footstep sounds.

>>3026140
>map control in quake is literally bunny hopping around the arena so nobody else has a chance to get a healthpack/gun/quad damage
>you retards that run around like chickens with your heads cut off in call of duty and halo
Literally the same thing.

>>3013063
The level design is fine, Quake 1 is so overrated it's not even funny.

>>3013140
Q1 map design is badass. Q2 is pretty boring.

>>3038785
Is sucking Quake 1 dick the new epic meme?

>>3038789
It is rather old epic meme.

>>3038286
>kek
Doom has a par time on the level completed screen. It's part of its concept.

>You know damn well having a good quest marker in hexen would have solved quite a few problems
As shitty solutions tend to do. It would also break half the game in the process.

>probably your hatred of TES style open world games
assuming gets you nowhere. I see you started resorting to name calling and strawmanning, so you're on your own now.

>what it would have done for hexens gameplay
killed it. No reason to bother with the game world, just follow the marker.

>>3013063
This: >>3013071

>>3039312
>High definition model pack
>M4
>vert- FOV
yuck

>>3039328
ehh nope.
It's the original shit man.
High settings.
The computer screens are still unreadable.

>>3039328

>hd pack

?????

>>3039336
>>3039363
>not knowing High Definition pack when you see it
New to Half-Life? You are using the model update that made its debut with Half-Life for Blue Shift/PS2/Dreamcast and ships by default with the shitty 2013 Steam Half-Life/Goldsource update.

>>3039365
Can't be.
I download this from megaupload on 2011.

>>3039375
*downloaded

>>3039375
And Blue Shift came out in 2001

>>3039375
Was it a rip/repack or was it from an untouched iso? Did you have Blue Shift installed too?

http://half-life.wikia.com/wiki/Half-Life_High_Definition_Pack

>>3039393
>>3039365
Samefag from >>3039375
I retreat. Sorry, white flag, little head bow.
I just looked at this... this monstrosity: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/half-life/images/a/af/Barneys.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090506003751&path-prefix=en

...And I'll be damned if I recognize that zombie disguised as a guard on the left.

If that's the HD pack, I got the HD pack.
(Fortunately)

>raises hands
>lowers head
>turns around
>leaves

"That's one less faggot in the thr-"
>pic related

>>3039393
>>3039365
Samefag from >>3039375 (You)
I retreat. Sorry, white flag, little head bow.
I just looked at this... this monstrosity: http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/half-life/images/a/af/Barneys.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090506003751&path-prefix=en

...And I'll be damned if I recognize that Frollo disguised as a guard on the left.

If the right (emphasis on right) one is from the HD pack, I got the HD pack.
(Fortunately)

>raises hands
>lowers head
>turns around
>leaves

"That's one less faggot in the thr-"
>pic related

>>3039375
Man, megaupload was so great, download speeds were great and so much shit was on there...

>>3039463
Lets not reminisce, Anon.

>>3034047
>inb4 two days later mamee
you're an imbecile retard and that's all that counts :^)

>>3038789
I don't know, is sucking cock and swallowing a family tradition where you live? :^)

>>3038789
People have always sucked Quake 1s dick.
I mean, it's good, but I think it gets more praise than it deserves, the one thing it really has going for it is it's quasi-gothic, pseudo sci-fi, almost fantasy themes, and that's because development was a mess.

>>3038286
>>3038950
Hexen is a game badly in need of fixing in my opinion, and while a quest marker would probably make the game flow much better, it would still be a very dull and tedious game.
Also there's better ways to orient a player than a marker.

>>3039328
I like the HD pack, because most of the stock HL models were ugly as shit. The HD pack models look substantially better without looking out of place.

>M4
Ah, but that's in fact a Colt 727, which does all of the same things basically.
Kinda wish there was a way to make the pistol and SMG/AR have separate ammo pools, it would make them both much more useful independent of each other.
I think one of the console ports might have done that.

>>3039365
The HD pack has been available ever since Blue-Shift came out though, so it could have been added to wherever he got it at any time since. The variant available from the commercial packs had the option to install it, but it was hardcoded and would basically block you from installing any custom resources.

Did Valve actually publish Half-Life with the hardcoded HD pack installed by default? Because that would be fucking gay of them.
There's a reason that the resources were extracted from the pack and made available by fans as regular mod content, you'd think Valve would have considered this if this is indeed the case.

>>3039819
HD models are a tick box now, as with v-sync amongst other things. There were also things removed, like software rendering I think.

>>3039757
You're forgetting gameplay.

Q1 gameplay >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Q2 gameplay

SP and MP

>>3040184
Hardware accelerated audio removed as well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAOcdfCN-RU

>>3038950
>Doom has a par time on the level completed screen. It's part of its concept.
of course it does. doom encourages linear runs to the exit. Its pretty poor game design imo.

The point stand that Hexen's level and hub design is awesome, but the gameplay of switch hunting and multiple part puzzles spread over various maps can make it slightly too difficult for the casual gamer used to doom's linear exit runs.

>>3040207
>imo
your o is questionable

>can make it slightly too difficult for the casual gamer used to doom's linear exit runs
Still with the insults, heh? Whatever floats your boat.

>>3013063
Because people keep buying shitty games. That's why any shitty game at all exists. If people would just STOP BUYING BULLSHIT they would be forced to stop MAKING bullshit.

>>3040203
I don't think that shit worked for any Steam release at all. If you wanted the game to be full featured, you'd definitely play Half-Life retail.

Playing that Hexen in zdoom; rolled all the way the hub 5 quite quickly. Its really simple. The game pushes you in the right direction almost every time.

Yes, I've beaten this game before, but it was over ten years ago and I sure as hell don't remember any of the puzzles past hub 1.

Also, with proper kbam controls and mouse look I can actually play this on harder settings.

To be honest, I like Hexen more than Doom and always have, its more ambitious and original. Doom has the shotgun going for it, though.

>>3040407
>its more ambitious and original
different goals. It's like saying Super Mario is more ambitious than Tetris

>>3013063
Because FPS was one of those genres that only had so many places it could go. The older I get the more I realize certain genres die out because a game or two reaches the pinnacle of what can be done and there isn't much point in trying to top it. FPS sells like hotcakes though so companies aren't interested in topping anything, just replicating the best enough to sell units.

>>3040550
So, in one statement you say the genre's at its end, because it reached the top. In the next statement you say nobody is bothering to improve the genre, because "good enough" sells, meaning nobody is actually trying to top whatever is "best" at the moment. So what is it? Have we reached the top, or have we not?
That said, this hardly relates to OPs actual question. You'd think with improved capabilities, the genre should go up in quality, even if only driven by a few enthusiasts. Yet in reality "good enough" seems to not only dominate, not even the enthusiasts manage to produce quality. Why is that? Surely they're more interested in driving the genre forward?

>>3040571
>Have we reached the top, or have we not?
You answered your own question
>So, in one statement you say the genre's at its end, because it reached the top
yes
>You'd think with improved capabilities, the genre should go up in quality
If they've already topped various design elements, how can it? At most they can attempt to match what has been done.
>Surely they're more interested in driving the genre forward
Not at all, they're interested in making money with minimal investment. As long as FPS consumers keep buying shit, that's all you'll ever get. It has happened to many other genres too so it's not like it's unique to FPS, it just happens to be in vogue right now.

>>3040578
>yes
Where is it? Why is it?

>If they've already topped various design elements
big if

>how can it?
Take away aspects, introduce aspects

>they're interested in making money with minimal investment
I said enthusiasts

>>3040583
>Where is it? Why is it?
Personally I'd assign various things like map design, storyline, vehicles etc. to different games but each one has maxed out an individual design element. One that has it all? Yet to be made, I guess, but there's no impetus to make it. Could the best platformers be topped nowadays? The devs who made them are tired of making them and the new ones don't seem to be able to pick up the slack, so I'd say no. The best ones have been made.
>Take away aspects, introduce aspects
Which amounts to fixing what isn't broken.
>I said enthusiasts
Which are an irrelevant market nowadays.

>>3040601
>I'd assign various things like map design, storyline, vehicles etc. to different games
Not very useful, as different mechanics require different assets. There's no one map design to rule them all.

>Yet to be made, I guess
So we haven't reached the top

>The best ones have been made
They aren't the best ones that could be made though.

>Which amounts to fixing what isn't broken
More like exploring the genre. Keep in mind that the FPS genre itself was invented that way. Do you know what lies outside the established? I don't.

>irrelevant market
producers, not consumers

>>3040606
>Not very useful, as different mechanics require different assets. There's no one map design to rule them all.
You can have a game with a wealth of maps to play on, that's plenty enough. Unless we're talking about campaigns or something.
>So we haven't reached the top
The top of what we're going to get in the genre. We aren't going to see another Half-Life, DOOM or Tribes shaking things up at this point, though I'm sure you'll disagree.
>More like exploring the genre
Which nobody is going to do. At most they can mix n' match things that worked from existing games, but completely new mechanics? Valve would've been the last hope for anything in that direction and they're finished as devs.
>producers, not consumers
People don't program complicated AAA shooters just for the hell of it, at most you might get mods of existing games. People do it to make money first and foremost, and the market conditions have reached a point where stagnation has set in and people reward it.

>>3040606
>>3040609
pinnacle aside, because it's a dead end and off topic discussion, OPs question was why the general quality of levels has dropped. Not the games, or few excellent ones, just the general quality of the maps. Dev tools are more widely available than ever before, and so are dev environments, especially to enthusiast developers, yet the quality of the produced assets went down the drain. Why is that? Nobody is asking for new games even, just a quality level design

>>3040609
>a game with a wealth of maps to play on
all of them slave to the mechanics of that one game.

>at most you might get mods of existing games
That's all OP is asking about.

Your defeatist, greedy and demanding attitude is getting kind of annoying though. You would never understand something as simple as a modding community, or foss development. So consider this the end of our exchange.

>>3040617
Same question could be asked of indie games, it should be a golden age of crowdfunding and creativity, but it isn't. The argument I was making is that people are tired, why should anybody bother with a game they aren't that passionate about in the first place? They'll prefer to play something they're familiar with, because the "dream map" they would otherwise come up with has already been made. It's not the days of goldsource CS anymore.

>>3040623
>Your defeatist, greedy and demanding attitude
Projecting much? 4chan might not be the site for you, not that I was even trying to trigger you or anything.

>>3040617
There is plenty of quality level design though. the STALKER series comes to mind. nice open non-linear maps, using hazards as part of the map, carefully created environments and ambient sounds. All gel together to make a great game experience both in gameplay and level design. Specifically STALKER: Clear Sky.
Deus Ex Human revolution was another very well made FPS with excellent level design.

Its easy to cherry pick and say that COD and halo map design isn't very good, but for every poorly designed level, there's another game that had a great level but perhaps didn't get marketed as hard and people tend to ignore or forget about. Alien isolation had great level design. The gameplay may not suit doom speed runner who want to kill everything and get to the exit, but for us who like immersion and exploration, its an excellent game. Regardless of gameplay, the level design is still excellent.
The Arma Series had great open world level design, almost revolutionary for SP, and yet no one really mentions it outside the DayZ mod.

>>3036378
I see someone has pleb taste. Quake 1's soundtrack is basically Nine Inch Nails' take on dark ambient, and it's a fucking masterpiece.

>>3040825
Why would Nine Inch Nails take on dark ambient magically make it a masterpiece? Go listen to some real dark ambient, pleb.

>>3040714
Might want to tell OP, they asked

>The gameplay may not suit doom speed runner who want to kill everything and get to the exit, but for us who like immersion and exploration
Oh shot the fuck up, assface

>>3040197
Q1's gameplay is ok, but Q2 just has more interesting things going for it in that regard.
More varied enemies, more varied weapons, while you can still pretty much move and spazz about like Q1

>>3040207
>too difficult
Obtuse switch/key hunting and tedious, flow breaking fighting =/= challenging.

Never once did I feel "This is too hard!", the game was not hard at all, it was just incredibly tedious.

>>3041249
>More varied enemies

They're all just dudes with guns, what the fuck are you talking about? Quake 1 had vores, shamblers, fiends, and knights - nothing in Q2 even touches on any semblance of enemy variety,

>>3041249
>>3041270
i dont understand anyone who says quake 2's enemies are any good

they're almost all hitscanners

>>3041294
Quake 1 has only 2 hitscanners (Grunt, Shambler), and both are uncommon. I hadn't realized how good the Quake 1 enemies were before I thought about this.

why are hitscanners seemingly universally hated?

>>3041343

Lack of skill involved in fighting them. For a start, it makes dodging impossible. So you basically just have to hyperaggressively kill them, and that gets dull real quick. No footwork, no wearing them down, because the former doesn't work, and the latter has them at an advantage. It's also less immersive, because there's less visual feedback as to what's going on. You never see the bolts of plasma, etc, going through the air or past you.

>>3041348
>Lack of skill involved in fighting them
This is what I honestly don't get. I understand that you can't dodge their fire, and for people focused on dodging, that is indeed an issue. But that's just a fraction of means of fighting them.

>No footwork, no wearing them down
You can force them to empty their magazine, they might have slow turn rate, they might have slow fire rate. Plenty of ways to force them to waste ammo, or incapacitate them even briefly, so you can return fire. I find that quite a bit more exciting than endless dodging.

>there's less visual feedback as to what's going on
That's just a visual choice. It's trivial to implement hitscan with strong visual feedback. Think UT99 plasma secondary fire. Pretty hard to miss that bolt

>>3041357
But Quake II is almost nothing but hitscan.

That's why it's so fucking boring.

>>3041348
I disagree, diversity of enemies is key. If you have all enemies either way the gameplay will have less variety. It's best to have as many different types of enemies so the gameplay is more interesting.

>>3041368
you understand there's more to enemy variety than hitscan vs. projectiles?

>>3041403
Read the second part of that post.

>>3041428
The whole post is only refering to hitscan vs. projectile, as shown by
>either way
which generally refers to a choice between exactly two options.

>>3041348
>For a start, it makes dodging impossible

>>3041348
>hitscanners are too hard
Git gud, christ.

Do you also bitch and moan about Blood or Wolfenstein 3D? You just have to handle hitscanners differently than melee enemies and solid projectile enemies, they change things up.

Did Quake 2 have many hitscanners? Sure, but enemies also featured lots of melee, blasters, grenades and rockets.
Most dedicated hitscanners are cannon fodder tier, like in Doom, so it's not like they're difficult to deal with.

>>3041438
Are you willfully being retarded?
>as many different types.

>>3041456
such a slow boring game

>>3041506
as slow/fast as you play it yourself, not that much different than Q1

>>3041523
at least quake 1 has variety

>>3041523
nah movement speed and everything else is noticeably faster in q1. Like >>3041531 said, way better enemy dynamics too.

>>3041343
some people can't deal with realistic firearms and real gun combat

>boohoo I can't dodge bullets
>I cant run in with guns blazing, using no cover and expect to win
>fuck hitscanners

Hitscanning is just a way to represent firearms with less code and projectiles. Its the mechanic of realistic guns that people seem to have the problem with. Doom and its clones give people an unrealistic view of how guns should work and how many times you can be shot and still survive.

>>3041535
i think in quake 1 your normal movements are faster BUT in quake 2 it's way easier to start bunny hopping

its really strange

>>3041536
Your entire post hinges on FPS being "realistic". Doom is decidely arcade in its nature, by design

>>3041456
I like how the grenades have a dynamic light source, although it has a very large "lightmap" grid size.

>>3041531
at least quake 2 has coherence

>>3041606
please tell me how quake 1 enemies are incoherent

>>3041645
Because fucking look at Quake, it's a boulderdash of consolidated resources from when the project was an RPG/Fantasy adventure, it was never meant to be a first person shooter with shotguns and rockets.

This gives the game some very unique visuals and environments, but this was never the original intent, and this shows.

It's also a very rushed game (in it's final form), the first end chapter boss is a big bad mama jama coming out of the lava, and you have to use the environments to defeat him.

But then after that the game is scarce with bosses, you get some encounters with Shamblers and Vores in place of real bosses, the only other real boss being Shub-Nigurath, where you have to use the environments to defeat her.

There exists code and models for an unfinished chapter boss which was a skeletal dragon, and there would likely had been another boss of some sort, but time ran out and they compromised.

Quake is a unique game due to the circumstances of development, it could probably only have turned out the way it did due to the mess that was it's development, and I like it for that.
At the same time however, this also is why the game feels disjointed and rushed, because it absolutely is, there is no focus or vision for the game.

>>3041645
So you have knights of various sorts and the zombies, but then various monsters that were made or retooled after the project changed direction, the Vore was retooled from what was originally some kind of magician, and the sci-fi troopers were thrown in for the sake of tying the game together for the tacked on sci-fi theme, you rarely see them most of the game, compared to everything else.

I wouldn't say that the enemy gallery is disjointed in terms of gameplay, or even that much in style, since the Vore, Shambler, Shub-Nigurath and Demon all kind of have a shared aesthetic.

The only enemy that feels really out of place at any point is the slimeball Spawn thing, which feels like it was kind of meant for another kind of game.

>>3041536
>some people can't deal with realistic firearms and real gun combat
I don't even think it's even that, I think it's just that people who moan about hitscanners can't or refuse to adapt and then blame the game for it.

Hitscanners aren't a big deal in Doom, because the Zombies are brittle, and only really Final Doom used them in ways that were less fair (but they honestly did worse shit). The only other hitscanner is the Spidermind, which is intended as a boss and should thus reasonably be more dangerous.

The thing with Doom though is that the gameplay can typically be approached in different ways, if you want to mainly focus on cover based combat, you can actually do this and it will work (and it's probably the best ways to play the early console ports due to the more limited controls).

Doom doesn't treat the exchange of gunfire in particularly realistic ways however (beyond the fairly realistic shotgun spread, yes, horizontal shotgun spread is a thing, pic related).

Blood, while being even less realistic than Doom, treats gunshots with much more urgency, taking cover in a gunfight is absolutely essential, because unlike Doom, where gunshots can be trivial and only an issue when piled up (which actually -can- be sort of realistic), gunshots hurt A FUCKING LOT in Blood, and enemies are not shy to let loose a volley of lead and keep doing so as necessary, they won't fire once and then advance like Doom zombies, if you don't have any cover in Blood, you must run, duck, jump and be as mobile as possible every second to confuse the enemies' aim, or you'll be swiss cheese in no time.
There was some .webm of some turbonoob who stood still in a window and let a cultist get in several shots on him before he killed him. This guy would not have a good time with Blood because he would not adapt to the gameplay.

>>3041791
>>3041536
Sometimes I see people who proclaim themselves fan of oldschool shooters, but they get one of those ZDoom mods that change all hitscan enemy attacks into projectile attacks, and put it on autoload, because they refuse to adapt to what the original game did.

Shit like that makes me chuckle.
Doom didn't explicitly require you to put cover between you and hitscanners to win, but it can help a lot, and hitscan moaners just loudly announce that they're unwilling to adapt or change their tactics and they're upset at the idea that they have to.

Now I'm not saying that they're bad players, they're not, but they're incredibly inflexible players.

Because the number of people who recognize good gameplay and value it over a cinematic setpiece that damn near plays itself is depressingly small.

>>3041820
Go away.

>>3013063
it really didn't your just a faggot

>Boring

You mean not headache inducing?

>>3042018
Well, some design was still good, some became better, some became worse.

Like COD, where all levels became 100% linear.
Wasn't it Black Ops where even on hardest, you could go and sit behind a box, and the game would literally progress the level by itself while you did nothing?

>>3041743
I'm glad they never put in the the monster that spawns the spawns.

I could only imagine the suffering that could occur.

>>3013063
Because of Q2. I love it but it helped spawn the cancer that was slow-pace FPS.

>>3017879
>>3017885
neat

>>3041543
This is probably why I prefer "realistic" games like Rainbow 6 or STALKER or ArmA to arcade shooters like Doom.

>>3042828
To each their own. It's only problematic if people dismiss a genre, or call it inferior, just because it's not their kind of game.

>>3041791
>Hitscanners aren't a big deal in Doom
Doom II's Chaingunner says hi.

Also, Blood is one of my least favorite 2.5D shooters just because of how off everything feels. You'd think it would play like Duke3D or Shadow Warrior, but it doesn't at all. The weapons feel underpowered, the basic enemies have way too much health, and the physics feel out of place in a 2.5D game. I've beaten all four episodes of Ultimate Doom on ultra-violence with no cheats and only keyboard controls, and I still think Blood is bullshit.

>>3043175
I admit though that I savescummed a whole shitload however, and I didn't pistol start any map. I just played it the way people did back in the 90s, albeit on Chocolate Doom instead of the original DOS engine. I also took advantage of a few tricks like SR40/50 straferunning and the horizontal rocket jump.

>>3043186
argh fuck my grammar

>>3040898
Oh yeah, I forgot, elitist pricks hate NIN because they've actually had a small degree of commercial success. I think NIN are great not just because of their music, but because they helped me branch off into more obscure shit that I didn't bother with before. Before I got into NIN, I pretty much only listened to buttrock and metal. Now, I listen to dark ambient, IDM, electro-industrial, EBM, post-punk, new wave, and everything in between.

Sage for offtopic, since this isn't /mu/.

>>3043175
>Doom II's Chaingunner says hi.
He's not difficult to handle.
Again, he's only really used in annoying ways in Final Doom, even then, other monsters are used in way more menacing ways.
An ambush of shotgunners is way worse than any regular use of chaingunners, and they're still easy to handle.

Hell, hitscanners can be an asset for the player outright due to the greater potential for infighting than other monsters. Trick some zombies to shoot at some imps and very rapidly that becomes a clusterfuck for them.
Or even better, if there's a baron around, be all slick and fast and use him for cover for quick moment, soon he'll take care of your hitscanner woes.

>I've beaten all four episodes of Ultimate Doom on ultra-violence with no cheats and only keyboard controls,
Doom is inherently a much easier game (though Ep4 gets pretty harsh), it's way more accessible by design.

>and I still think Blood is bullshit
Blood is designed to be a hard game, but I don't think it's unplayable or unfair by any means, you just have to adapt to the gameplay.

>>3041294
What does hitscan mean?

>>3043343
>Again, he's only really used in annoying ways in Final Doom

>forgetting about the rocket launcher double ambush in The Pit

>>3043360
The shots aren't actual projectiles.

If they can see you, they WILL hit you.

>>3043360
it's an implementation/programming detail of shooters. The enemies fire ranged weapons at you, and for the programmer there's at least two ways to simulate that:

- they simulate an actual projectile. An object that moves a certain distance over time. Each game frame the position of the projectile is advanced, and the game checks if anything was hit. You can dodge these projectiles. Occasionally that mechanism may introduce inaccuracies, like projectiles going through solid objects. That happens because in one frame the projectile is before the solid object, in the next frame it's behind the solid object. To the code it never touched the object, so it didn't hit there. There are ways around that though, if a programmer desires that.

- instead of simulating the projectile, you just check if anything is in the trajectory of where the projectile would go, and register a hit on that object. Conceptionally that's equivalent to an infinitely fast projectile. You can not dodge these, obviously. The act of checking if anything is in that trajectory is performing a scan for a potential hit, hence the name. They're also much more simple in terms of programming, as no projectile needs to be kept track of across multiple frames, and no complex collision detection needs to be done.

Some people dislike hitscanners, because they do not allow for normal dodging mechanics, and because the more simple programming may make them seem "cheap". However in terms of mechanics, there's more than just projectile vs. hitscan. The agility of the enemy comes into play, their fire rate, and as other anons suggested before, they require different means of engagement, and might even be an advantage if the game supports infighting.
>>3043367 for example is automatically assuming a hitscan enemy has infinite agility, which is not the case with good hitscan implementations. The topic can get quite complex.

>>3043362
That one is pretty rough, but by no means impossible.
I mean, if you didn't have the Rocket Launcher before, you do now, and you should have picked up enough rockets and backpacks in previous maps to deal with them.

>>3041343
Because this board is turd at playing FPS. I swear it's the truth. /vr/ is a fucking joke.

>>3043367
>If they can see you, they WILL hit you.
No, this is 100% wrong.
Hitscanners work exactly like your own guns, meaning they have spread values.

At 100 meters:
>A trooper will miss almost every shot
>A shotgun sergeant will miss well over half the time, rarely, if ever, scoring a full pattern (each shot is 3 pellets, for reference)
>A chaingunner will miss most of his shots, but he keeps shooting
>A spidermind will probably hit half the time, given the combined features of the shotgunner and chaingunner, firing 3 pellets with every shot (this characteristic might be there to represent a higher rate of fire than what would be presentable at the time), the spidermind is a boss, however.

Putting distance and cover between yourself and hitscanners, while remaining mobile, is how to best handle them.

JUST BECAUSE THEY SEE YOU IT DOES NOT MEAN THEY WILL ALWAYS HIT YOU, THEY ARE NOT ARCH-VILES.

>>3043487
good point, I forgot that hitscan is not just about registering a hit in terms of direction, but also applying probability, to emulate aiming precision, or the lack of it, and the way the bullet is affected by wind and stuff.

>implying the grey brown corridors werent boring.

>forgetting Doom

>>3041348
>Lack of skill involved in fighting them
So evading an imp's slow ass projectile is so much skill but popping in and out of cover vs hitscanners (or suppressing them with gunfire) isn't. A good FPS will have both hitscanners and projectile enemies among other types to mix up the gameplay.

>>3043487
not to mention you can dodge hitscanners openly in games like duke 3d, blood and quake 2

>>3043639
>you can dodge hitscanners
When people say dodging, they're talking about a evading a projectile that would hit you if you did not perform this motion, a reaction. That is definitely not possible with hit scan.
What you can do with hit scan is keeping the aim of the enemy's weapon off you. But that's not dodging in the reaction sense.

>>3043645
Call it what you want you faggot. You can be out in the open and not take hitscanner shots due to your movement.

>omg an imp is throwing a projectile at me going at 0.00004 km per day
>he takes about an hour to throw it, too, with his wind up reaction
>i strafed to left a little just as it 'whizzes' by me
>HOLY FUCK I'M SUCH AN AWESOME FPS PLAYER

>>3043645
>When people say dodging, they're talking about a evading a projectile that would hit you if you did not perform this motion, a reaction.
It is a reaction to evade a hitscanners shot you dickhead.

>See hitscanner
>He hasn't shot you yet
>begin movement before he shoots
>dodge the shot, that would have hit you had you not been doing the movement

It is also a reaction to go back into cover before he shoots you. If you think that it's not your fault that you've been shot by a hitscanner, it's because you're a fucking idiot with no sense to either not suppress him before he's shot you, or not go back into cover before he is able to react.

>>3043663
it is not a reaction to the projectile. It's a pre-emptive motion, so the shot has no chance to go in your direction, taking advantage of properties of the hit scanner, like their rate of fire, or turning rate, or hit probability at distance.

I'd appreciate it if you and >>3043650 would cool down on the insults. I did neither attack nor defend hitscanning. I merely mentioned how the same term interpreted differently can lead to misunderstandings. People say you can't dodge hitscanning weapons, and that's certainly correct. That does not make them über-powerful or broken or anything, as it's still very possible to evade their fire using different means. Just might want to avoid using that specific term for it, as it's guaranteed to lead to misunderstanding and insults.

>>3043679
>it is not a reaction to the projectile
So the fuck what? Why is dodging a slow ass projectile skill but dealing with hitscanners not skill? I'd say it takes more skill to deal with hitscanners than it does projectiles.

And it is still a reaction to the enemy, one which in fact takes a quicker reaction than it does to evade an enemy's projectile. With a hitscanner he
>sees you and doesn't shoot (normally makes an alert sound and walks a little before firing before firing)
>does his short animations and blasts

with a projectile enemy he
>sees you (alert sound), doesn't do anything
>begins his throwing animation
>fires the projectile which will take ages to reach you

I fail to see how evading the projectile based enemy takes more skill than evading the hitscanner. You're a fucking retard 2bh.

>>3043707
>Why is dodging a slow ass projectile skill but dealing with hitscanners not skill?
I did not say or imply that. Dodging is a specific type of movement that just doesn't apply there. Evasion of hitscanners is a game mechanic and requires practice and skill. That was not questioned.

>it is still a reaction to the enemy
I did not deny that. Reacting to enemy movement just isn't dodging though. Dodging applies when something is already going for you, and a motion needs to be performed to avoid that. Evading hitscanners is a pre-emptive movement, which is not about avoding the object coming for you, but preventing the enemy from firing at you to begin with (they may still fire, just not at you, if you use their lack of agility to your advantage)

>I fail to see how evading the projectile based enemy takes more skill than evading the hitscanner
At no point have I implied that. I talked about evading hitscanners precisely because that's possible, and necessary.

>>3013063
It's pretty simple and intiuitive to edit prism-based levels like Doom's, it handles like vector 2D, while true 3D geometry necessitates to do actual 3D modeling. That means much higher complexity and iteration times.

>>3043729
so why do we do complex geometry levels then? You can still do simple geometry in modern editors, and apparently, according to you, it's somewhat necessary for good level design.

>>3043645
So lets say that instead of hitscan, the bullets are actual projectiles, but they move so fast and are so small you can't see or react to them when mid-air, does this make the game better or worse to you?

>>3043663
>It is also a reaction to go back into cover before he shoots you.
100% this, when he levels his shotgun at you, you have ample time to get the fuck out of the way or to shoot him first.

If you don't act before he does, it is your fault.

>>3043790
>does this make the game better or worse to you?
No, it doesn't. Hitscan and projectiles are just implementation details, and you can make complex and engaging enemies using both.

>the bullets are actual projectiles, but they move so fast
If you read my description of projectiles vs. hitscan upthread you'd understand it's a spectrum and projectile implementations effectively turn into hitscan if you increase the speed.

>are so small you can't see
There's nothing about hitscan requiring that the effect is not drawn. I refer again to secondary fire of the UT99 plasma gun. It's a hitscan weapon, but it's very difficult to visually miss that bright green beam. Also, the lasers in games like Elite are hitscan weapons, with visual feedback.

>>3043408
Hitscanning is a more accurate way of representing firearms.

because you just can't dodge bullets.

>>3043832
>Hitscanning is a more accurate way of representing firearms
That depends on your game's internal speed. Let's say you got your ticks at a solid 16ms, regardless of your framerate. For an AK-47, with a muzzle velocity of 715m/s (thanks, wikipedia), that ends up being barely 12 yards per tick. It still means the projectile can cross the map within a couple handful of ticks, and it's practically impossible to actively dodge, but it's more realistic in terms of actual travel and its consequences, like handling accidental dodges (glances you vs. misses you), or handling intermediate effects (ricochet, wind, gravity). You might argue it's irrelevant from a gameplay perspective, and I'd agree to some degree, but the unexpected side effects can add great fun to not-straight shots. However it's arguably more realistic than representing the travel of the bullet as a straight line with probabilities.
That said, a key aspect of hitscanning is saving performance through approximation. That's a common theme for anything realtime. It is a very solid approximation, and gets the job done more often than not. It's just not a good idea to argue for it being more realistic.

>>3043175
In Blood, so much is weridly delayed when it comes to weapons/monsters. Zombies need two strikes with pitchfork to kill them and you cannot damage them when they are lying on the ground, they still rush for like ten seckonds when hit with flare, cultists do that too plus they are the most common enemy AND hitscanners so almost every fight feels like chaingunner fest, banshees (i believe they are called that) are transparent most of the time and thus cannot be harmed... I love Blood and completed it several times, but not for its gameplay for sure.

>>3044140
>Zombies need two strikes with pitchfork to kill them
>he plays on still kicking

>>3044140
>you cannot damage them when they are lying on the ground
you can with dynamite. also zombies dont fall on skill 3 and higher vs pitchfork

>rush for like ten seckonds when hit with flare, cultists do that too
so shoot the cultist with flare and get out of view. best not use primary flare gun v cultist if you can help it. wasting flare on zombies is stupid

>banshees (i believe they are called that) are transparent most of the time and thus cannot be harmed.
when theyre close to you they go opaque and that's your opportunity to shoot them. so get close, then double blast with the shotgun

get some gameplay ability you dumbass. every fps shouldn't be doom.

>>3043639
PigCops can hurt, but aren't hard to deal with.

Enemies that are frustrating for real are the Drone Bombs and the "I can't believe it's not Gieger" Xenomorph.

The drone is harder to dodge in close quarters than a pig, and the Xenomorph is just NASTY, fast, hard to kill, and sometimes lets ofd shrink rays, where they can REALLY fuck you, that's what makes them REALLY frightening.

The new Microwave Cannon you get do good damage, but it's really hard to score good hits with it on the xenomorph so it's practically wasted on them (though it's extremely satisfying to see them swell and pop)

>>3043857
I think thats why many games have the damage multiplied by a random number (like D3 in dooms hitscans). To represent different hits, glancing versus critical.

> it's practically impossible to actively dodge
Good, thats the way bullets should be. no human can dodge bullets. As long as that is the case, I dont mind whether its a hitscan or a projectile travelling faster than sound.

Hitscanning is a means to an ends. Anyone who complains about it probably just doesn't understand how guns work or how to not get shot by them.

>>3044296
this guy knows how to blood.
Blood gameplay is some of the best of the era once you get used to taking cover and using dynamite around corners.

double shotgun at point blank range is also exellent for those opponents that try to get close.

Voodoo doll seems to be the weakness of the gargoyles. It rapes them.

>>3044968
>To represent different hits, glancing versus critical
just statistically, no actual test is performed

>no human can dodge bullets
not every game tries to be realistic, not every player character is human.

>thats the way bullets should be
not every projectile is a bullet, or as fast as one, or as small as one. Some RPGs top out at 300m/s, less than half of the aforementioned AK-47 bullet. Bow and arrow can go down to 90m/s, lobbed objects are much slower even.

>>3045016
>not every projectile is a bullet
which is why I specified bullet.
RPGs are not bullets. They are something you actually see coming, and would have a chance to dive for cover if you were quick enough. We're talking about firearms here, hitscanning is a great and simple way to represent them. Most games tend to try to get guns close to correct, and most games you play as a tough guy(or girl) human. There are always exceptions, but most of the time thats the case.

Sure some games treat health and firearms in a more arcade way, and almost no games actually test out guns and implement extremely realistic damage. Certainly not in dooms era.

Doom is definitely an arcade shooter. lots of health that you can always pick up more of. Its kind of like 2.5D SHMUP which I guess it makes sense that hitscanning shouldn't be a thing, as SHMUPS are all about dodging actual projectiles.

Most good FPS's have a balance of projectile and hitscan. The player must make decisions about which enemy is the highest priority, and which can be avoided, and kills them in that order, dodging the projectiles while taking down the hitscanners (or hiding from them) and then dealing with what's left.

Also picking what you see as "holes" in someone's post isn't really constructive posting. Try to clearly outline your point and affirm why your opinion is correct, instead of debasing another persons opinion. If possible, you can do both, but at the very least try to communicate your point.

It gets to the point where people are just greentexting lines and writing comebacks and that's not really discussion.

>>3045375
>We're talking about firearms here
That's just you. Before you jumped into an exchange from the sidelines the exchange up to that point was merely about projectile weapons and hitscan vs. projectile implementations.

Unfortunately the whole subject is heavily emotionally loaded, and even you are trying to come up with one true solution, instead of actually looking at the impact of the implementations.

>Also picking what you see as "holes" in someone's post isn't really constructive posting
>It gets to the point where people are just greentexting lines and writing comebacks and that's not really discussion.
looked into a mirror lately?

>>3045383
Thats odd I'm not experiencing any emotion while I type these up. I prefer to look at things scientifically. Emotion doesn't have very much to do with coding.

You can work out how constructive a post is by the ratio of greentext to non greentext. If its just a string of greentext with "comebacks" its not a productive post. The last 3 lines of your post are kind of unnecessary. As for the first 3 lines, what have you said? "you jumped into a discussion" and "this subject is emotionally loaded". This doesn't really add much to the discussion.
I'm not trying to come up with any one solution, I'm arguing in favor of hitscanning being an effective simulation of firearms in FPS games. It gets the job done, and the mechanic itself has never been a problem. Some people perceive it as such, but its the combination of projectiles and hitscans at the same time that make a good FPS.

>>3045448
>I'm arguing
Indeed, you are.

>in favor of hitscanning being an effective simulation of firearms in FPS games. It gets the job done
You mean like >>3043857 ?
>It is a very solid approximation, and gets the job done more often than not
Doesn't change that it's just that, an approximation. If a developer has the need to go deeper, who the fuck are you to deny it to them?

>Some people perceive it as such
You mean like >>3043408 ?
>Some people dislike hitscanners, because ...

I posted a neutral basic explanation of hitscan vs. projectile implementations, and your response was "b-b-b-but hitscan!!"
You were trying to pick apart a post, and when corrected (>>3043857 ) you doubled down on it.

We're not even much in disagreement on the fundamentals, yet you're trying to stage an argument because you think your precious hitscan is under attack (so much for lack of emotion), and it's tiresome.

>>3045016
>not every game tries to be realistic, not every player character is human.
Lot's of games go for selective realism. Doom uses hitscan for guns because the way it depicts bullets is a functional approximate of how bullets are very fast in real life.

>>3045375
>Doom is definitely an arcade shooter.
Uh, sure, in some senses.

>Its kind of like 2.5D SHMUP which I guess it makes sense that hitscanning shouldn't be a thing, as SHMUPS are all about dodging actual projectiles.
That's if you treat it as one, but Doom wasn't designed to be 100% about dodging visible projectiles, it's pretty much completely viable to play it as if it's cover based combat (I like to do both equally/where it's sensible).

>>3045448
Not going to lie, this post is autistic top to bottom.

>>3044968
>using dynamite around corners
are you really so shit at the game that the only way you can cope with cultists is to lob dynamite at them when they can't see you?

>>3045930
This post is needlessly combative, anon.

>>3045927
>Lot's of games go for selective realism. Doom uses hitscan for guns because the way it depicts bullets is a functional approximate of how bullets are very fast in real life.
Again, and just for you, I said that phrase in the context of there being cases where modelling a bullet using a projectile is necessary. Any time "bullet time" is used, or generally faster senses of the protagonist are modelled, bullets need to move slower than a couple hundred meters per second, and actually cover a finite distance per tick.
When these requirements do not apply, using hitscan is appropriate.
I have not argued for or against hitscanners in Doom, that was not part of the exchange. I have not argued for or against hitscanning in general, that was not part of the exchange. I just elaborated on their differences, and their impact on gameplay modelling.

>>3045936
true. I apologise.

>>3013178
>He got lost in quake 1

lmao

>>3045964
I think there's like one or two levels that you can kind of get lost in the first time around but it's hardly difficult to get your bearings after a bit of exploration.

>>3046017
Those would be Sandy Petersen's levels.

>>3046053
His levels are what really sold me on quake.

>>3046053
I like Doom better than Quake, but honestly Sandy did way better levels for Quake.

I mean, most of his Doom levels were fine, but they were all pretty mucy eyesores. He's super cool though, OG fa/tg/uy.

>>3045930
>wanting to get shot
enjoy getting shot there friend. some of us play on the higher difficulties and like to conserve life.

>>3045457
this post hurts my eyes and doesn't seem to have any real point. Try to keep your posts clear and concise in future.

Hitscans work fine in doom era games. there isn't much more to say. 1/35th or 2/35ths of a second is negligible in terms of gameplay.

If you do have a point, feel free to sum it up in a sentence or two.

>>3021461
WHY did they kill those menu screens and ruin the music so badly on Steam? Flagship series of the time and they just rushed it out... WON half-life for life. My disc is sitting around somewhere.

>>3044140
You just named 95% of the reasons why I hate Blood. I WANT to like it, because everyone touts it as being the holy grail of 2.5D FPS games, but its gameplay is so wonky that I can't stand it. If I want to play a 2.5D shooter that's somewhat different than the norm, I'll fire up Hexen or Shadow Warrior.

>>3047427
Starting with the Half-Life GOTY disc, it included Deathmatch Classic and Team Fortress Classic. This means in order to fit those games, they had to take out redbook CD audio and replace them with lossy versions. Transcoding to MP3 was probably not their first choice given the time, not to mention the engine didn't know how to decode MP3. So they stuck with what they had, very low quality 22khz WAV.

Basically, you will want to play the original Half-Life disc for the best experience, but it doesn't have a proper tilde ~ console.

I just wonder why FPS' strayed away from Quake 1's movement style. I really loved the way the camera tilted with every strafe.

>>3038789
>>3038794
>>3039613
>>3039757

Q1 is praised for its multiplayer. You fucking ignorant faggots.

>come into thread having heard of /vr/'s reputation for being a pretty chill board

Woah, dudes.

Anyway, would anybody like to discuss TFC level design? One of the things that wowed me, getting into it after it is mostly dead, is the amount of dynamic level elements, like detpack-destructible terrain, elevators and ladders, which it seems TF2 mostly did away with, perhaps to simplify the genre?

I have an interest in mapping so if anyone can give me some insights into what they miss from old maps that aren't present today, I could work it into one of my maps (when I stop being a bum).

I also found QWTF levels to be really fucking big in some areas.

>>3047840
I imagined that picture in Adam West's voice and never has it felt so good.

>>3013110
WHERE IS THE QUEST MARK ?!

>>3038789

>new

I've seen people hating on Q2 since the mid-2000s or so. It's a game that I think a lot of people go back to in retrospect and often realize it's pretty shitty, whereas Quake holds up in a way more approximate to Doom/ Doom2. Bitching soundtrack though

>>3038743
>brutally mediocre
what ? it's brutally fun to play

what do you recommend

>>3013110
Not that guy, and i disclaim that i never played Quake, but i remember Doom had a map, so imo i don't see the big fuss.

>>3047840
there are literally posts here shitting on Quake II and extolling Quake I's singleplayer campaign mouthbreather, should I walk you back to kindergarten?

yes, that was an insult, cupcake!

>>3013063
Keep in mind the first FPS games were designed to be mazes. They were literally a map plotted from top down, and the audience generally expected the world to be lacking in fine detail, but sprawling and navigation to the end to be a challenge.

as technology improved and the designers were able to fill settings with higher detail, the concept shifted from "maze design" to "set building". We were finally able to create worlds that were more grounded in reality. Nobody builds a city, or house or skyscraper to be difficult to navigate.

So in a roundabout way, our designs and game theory were changed as our tools provided us more realism. It became more demanding that our end-work closer resembled reality and the conventional logic became more "Design beautiful looking environments and reward the player through spectacle and combat" and less "Build a complex maze, reward the player's ability to escape the maze"

I think most people like something in between those extremes. A map with branching paths that feels natural and interesting to look at. I think we'll be seeing more of that in the years to come.

>>3013071
probably the main reason I liked half-life was the well-designed levels with unique shit at every turn, and fun to solve "puzzles" (not that they were hard, really)

>>3048338
>anything doom does is gospel
Why haven't doom babies fucked off and died yet?

>>3048226
>>come into thread having heard of /vr/'s reputation for being a pretty chill board
>Woah, dudes.
/vr/'s FPS community is cancer. Honestly it's the board's worst feature and closest link to /v/.

>>3048253
>Bitching soundtrack though
Yeah. It's amazing how much more boring Q2 SP gets if you play it without the soundtrack. It really feels like the soundtrack is the main thing holding up the SP.

>>3049225
It's great when games have great soundtracks But the problem is because they're so good, the game feels lacking if you turn it off, which gives the false impression that the core game feels weak.

>>3049225
The Quake 2 soundtrack is awful though. Its the weakest part of the game. Mediocre metal without any interest or atmosphere. A real step backwards from Quake 1. Q2 soundtrack is doom-tier meathead metal.

>>3049310

>Q2 soundtrack is doom-tier meathead metal.

And it works for the game, which is a nuts-out space-marine-blows-things-apart-shooter. I mean, I like the Q1 music a lot better too but the metal fits what's going on in it perfectly just as the dark ambient stuff fits Quake 1's eldritch ruins and demonic creatures

>>3049318
Yeah quake 2's soundtrack does suit the gameplay. mindless linear key crawls blasting everything in sight.

>>3049270
Well playing Q1 without the soundtrack doesn't feel like a huge drop in quality. It's still great. Q2 without soundtrack is just a slodge (is that word? probably not kek)

>>3047427
That's like the number one thing that pissed me off when Half-Life was first moved to Steam, where the fuck did the cool-ass menu go?
What's this minimalist generic Source bullshit?

>>3048269
Accessories To Murder
Shut Up And Bleed
Nazis!

>>3047809
Yeah, why did games stop doing that? Just having a subtle tilt when strafing feels really right.

>>3048430
>I think most people like something in between those extremes. A map with branching paths that feels natural and interesting to look at.
That's why I love Duke Nukem 3D a lot, it has sort of realistic environments, but not so realistic as to not be fun or interesting, there's still exploration and navigation, as well as a bunch of crazy shit nobody would build in real life.

>>3049310
>Q2 soundtrack is doom-tier meathead metal.
I like that, so that doesn't bother me. I think Q2 is a perfectly alright shooter and the music fits fine.

>>3049331
>Well playing Q1 without the soundtrack doesn't feel like a huge drop in quality.
I think that's because it has a radically different sort of atmosphere.

>Q2 without soundtrack is just a slodge
I don't feel the same way, it's less fun, but it doesn't kill the game for me.
It's like Doom, the soundtrack is a huge part of it's atmosphere, but not having it doesn't kill the game.
What kills a game more is when you boot up a mapset and it has no custom music, the game defaulting to the default Doom 2 music.

>>3049428
Quake 2 is boring poo stop having shitty opinions.

>>3049482
Stop being mean, I had just as much fun with Quake 2 as I did with Quake 1

>>3049541
>Stop being mean
s-sorry

>>3049428
Am I the only person who prefers playing Q2 without the soundtrack, and Q1 with? I feel like Q2's soundtrack is just loud and distracting and detracts from the overall atmosphere. It feels more suited to a Serious Sam type game than anything.

>>3052437
I feel the opposite, Q1 feels better without the soundtrack, while Q2 feels better with.

>>3052623
I disagree with both. Soundtracks all the time. Scourge of armagon doesn't quite suit the quake feel but it is energetic as fuck and gets me pumped.

>>3047345
lol I play on skill 4 standard (and have also beaten each episode from start to finish on EC without dying) and I don't have to play like a bitch like you

>>3053401
Well, my dad works for Nintendo!

>>3053908

I had sex with a girl once. Beat that.

>>3053919
I had sex with a girl who works at Nintendo!

>>3053947
I had sex with a Nintendo !

>>3053401
You've never seen my play though.

I'm simply giving some advice to people who struggle with cultists. Personally I have no problem with them, and can deal with them in a variety of ways. Stabbing them to death with the pitchfork is the most fun, and manly way to kill em.

>>3044140
The ghosts are literally the easiest enemy in the game once you get past the initial spook factor. Wait for them to approach, blast them with the double-barrel, they slide backwards, rinse and repeat.

>>3056465
This.

They're loud assholes, but once you figure them out it's pretty easy.

The severed hands are way worse (but not unreasonable)