/vr/ - Retro Games

1

>>3012654
sorry but we don't want non-spindash games with incosistent level design in this great debate

>>3012651
S3&K is the clear winner.
>Way Better artstyle that doesn't look flat and messy
>Balanced Spindash
>More consistent level design unlike S2 where it falls apart after Casino Night Zone
>Bosses are actually fun
>Elemental and insta-shield

>>3012654
I actually like 1 way more than 2

>>3012651

S3&K >= SCD > S1 >> S2

>>3012657

casual

>>3012651
3&K no questions asked

>>3012657
1 is way better than 2
Fuck you Labyrinth and Marble were good zone go suck a dick casual

>>3012676
3&K>1>2>CD

>>3012708
Finally someone who gets it.

Sonic 1 had the largest amount of actual platforming, which is pretty important for me in a platforming game.

>>3012667
You forgot

>Alternate gameplay styles for Knuckles and Tails
>Knuckles has his own story mode
>Exclusive routes for Knuckles
>Exclusive bosses for Knuckles
>Exclsuive routes for Tails(though Hyper Sonic can potentially access those)
>Way bigger zones with much more alternate paths
>Hyper Sonic
>Best physics
>Michael Jackson
etc.

>>3012712
It pisses me off cuz people criticize Marble Zone for not being fast when the zone doesn't stop you from going fast you just have to be fucking good

Most of the waiting sections can be easily skippable with well time jumps

Labyrinth is a water level so it's slow but it's a fucking welcomed change of pace

Don't get me wrong
Sonic 3 & Knuckles is by far the best Sonic game but Sonic 1 is in 2nd place not far behind

3&K > CD >= 2 > Chaotix > 1

>>3012729
>rating chaotix over 1
you're a fucking mad man

>>3012730
It was tough. I really like them all.

>>3012732

Chaotix is a nice experiment, but not a proper game.

Sonic 1 might be the most rustic of all, but at least it has enemies, and a consistent level design (no, having to wait here and there in some zones don't make it a bad level design, all Sonic games have parts like that, 3&K probably having the most)

>>3012728
>when the zone doesn't stop you from going fast
Well now that's just plain untrue isn't it? You have to push blocks unto lava, wait for platforms to raise, wait for glass pillars to move, wait for the blocks that I mentioned before to elevate in a geyser of lava...

>>3012778

There are definitely parts where you can go fast, the ones where you're outside the temple and land on flaming platforms.
And inside the temple there's also parts where you can go fast if you want. It's filled with traps but if you know your way to can go pretty fast evading them.

>>3012778
>Well now that's just plain untrue isn't it?
No it's not
The zone doesn't stop you from going fast...you just have to get good at jumping

There's only like 2-3 blocks which are mandatory to push in the whole 3 acts(and even the Sandopolis is far more offensive when it comes to this)...a lot of them you can outright skip such as most of them which you need to push into lava...you can skip most of those by jumping precisely

>>3012804
>The zone doesn't stop you from going fast...
Sorry, but yes it does. It is a known fact; look it up. The developers stated in an interview the zone was specifically designed to slow things down after all of the fast in the first zone. Because they were afraid the game would be too fast to handle.

That said, that doesn't necessarily make it a bad zone, and what you're saying isn't completely untrue. There are ways to circumvent some of slow bits if you know what you're doing.

>>3012804
Fun fact, marble 2 is so boring speedrunners take a zip shortcut to get through it quickly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2IHS2Hf0aI

>>3012863

>speedrunners
>playing to have fun

I'm ok with speedrunning but they don't care about "fun" or "boring" parts, they only care about time, it's the whole concept of speedrunning a game.

Ironically the guy has to stand and wait for the glitch to happen instead of going fast in one of the parts of Marble Zone where you can go fast.

>>3012867
Yeah you're correct, I just thought that was interesting. Scrap Brain 3 and Labyrinth Zone are the real pain in the ass in this game, though.

>>3012651
Sonic 2:
Plebs and Nintendofags who went full nintendo mode
Sonic 3/Knuckles:
God-tier people with better taste.

I personally can't even get how shitty level designs/graphics/music and gameplay of 2 can even compare to 3.
3/Knuckles does everything right. Different ways to play on different stages that went iconic (Ice Cap/Flying Battery) and even unique level mechanics like that tomb of Sandopolis filled with ghosts that slowly get more powerful when the light goes down.

>>3012963
>Plebs and Nintendofags who went full nintendo mode

What kind of logic is that? A console warrior one? Then how am I supposed to take your opinion seriously?

Sandopolis Act 2 is probably the worst part on 3&K. if people hate waiting and parts that stops your momentum on Sonic games, then Sandopolis 2 is the worst offender.

>>3012969
>What kind of logic is that? A console warrior one? Then how am I supposed to take your opinion seriously?
More like a based on facts-one.
Every time i see people prefer 2 over 3 are nintendofags who saw 1 and 2 sonics and they they were sucked into SNES and didn't cared about sega so they never experienced Sonic 3 fully and never had any memories/nostalgie about it and tried it only in early-late 00s and then Sonic went to shit so they never saw Sonic 3 and Knuckles as something good.
>Sandopolis Act 2 is probably the worst part on 3&K
Stopped reading here. What a tool.
Are you fucking kidding me. That part is brilliant with good level design and gameplay.

We have shitty slow parts like Labyrith from Sonic 1.
And then there are unqiue stages with fast and slow parts like Sandopolis or Hydrocity zone.

Go suck a Mario dick.

>>3012979

You have some weird issues with "nintendofags" boogeymen.

All your arguments as to why Sandopolis 2 isn't shit is because it is "brilliant with good level design and gameplay", lol, no it is not, it's the worst part of 3&K agreed by the majority, you only had a shitty unpopular opinion, because you have awful taste in video games, probably due to growing up as a single-system poorfag and thus having a narrower taste conditioned by your poor status.

Also you mention "memories/nostalgie(sic)" as if that was an indicator about games being good or bad, lol. Don't worry, I did play S3&K on my Genesis back in 1994. You probably weren't even born yet, or crawling on your limbs, shitting your diapers.

>>3012969
>if people hate waiting and parts that stops your momentum on Sonic games, then Sandopolis 2 is the worst offender
the thing is - sonic 3 is actually the game that was using Sonic gameplay smart and with better level design that allow you to explore, run around and be slow or fast if you wish so.
Like in Hydrocity Zone if you know that level well you can choose parts wisely so you almost will neer be stopped and run through it in full speed.
Or if you like exploring and going for secrets you go deeper underwater and have some platforming fun.
NO OTHER SONIC GAME used this "supersonic hedgehog platformer" as good as Sonic 3 and Knuckes.

Sonic always had a tricky gameplay that could be easily ruined like late levels of Sonic 1 (but that's ok it was the first game after all) or Sonic 3 on GBA or that GODAWFUL Sonic CD that drives you nuts and dont even allow you to enjoy platforming.
It seems that only Sonic 3 (+ first 2 GBA games) actually knew what they were doing and in which way they should go.

>>3012984
you sound like you 13 and experienced all those games with AppStore.
>You probably weren't even born yet, or crawling on your limbs, shitting your diapers.
yeah you are.
You went butthurt from the very beginning using buzzwords and "lol"ing.
Stay mad kid. Im sure your vidyagaems are better than mine. :^)

>>3012987

I'm not arguing whether 3&K is the best Sonic game or not, but Sandopolis Act 2 is one of the worst levels in Sonic, and definitely a black mark on an otherwise great game. I agree Hydrocity is great.
Some levels are kind of so-so though, never been much of a fan of Garden Marble or Carnival Night (Spring Yard and Casino Night are MUCH better pinball-themed stages).
But yeah, 3&K is probably the peak of 2D Sonic as a whole.

Still this delusional kid thinking Sandopolis 2 has "brilliant level design" should get that huge chunk of nostalgia out of his ass.

>>3012990

At least I'm not the memekid using dank meme images from 2013.

You can tell me "u mad" all you want babe, it won't change the fact you have a limited, awful taste in video games.

I'd like S3&K if half the levels weren't linear bullcrap with almost no branching paths.

>>3012969
>Sandopolis Act 2 is probably the worst part on 3&K
meme opinion that gets repeated for no good reason. It's one of the most challenging levels in the game exploration-wise and you can easily lost yourself, but I guess people just prefer "gotta run fast to the right"

2 was better. The level designs in 3 felt a lot more cumbersome and slow.

>>3013086

Nah, the exploration on that level is basically going down slides and finding those sand switches on the ceilings that allow you to access the upper levels (in a very, very slow manner).

There is nothing challenging about Sandopolis 2, "getting lost" because of the slides or the sand switches isn't real challenge, just shitty, boring design.
The ghosts aren't really a menace really, you can always get the lights on just in time, and even when it goes full dark, the ghosts are still enemies you can evade. It's a modified gameplay mechanic of the bubble on water stages, except less annoying, but nothing great either, I'm glad they only experimented with it for one level.
Sandopolis Act 1 is a good level, Act 2 is bad and you're just excusing your poor nostalgia by claiming it's a "brilliant" level.

>but I guess people just prefer "gotta run fast to the right"

I agree with this, the problem isn't that Sandopolis 2 isn't a "gotta go fast" stage, the problem is that it is badly designed.

>>3013102
pathetic

>>3012992
Not the guys you have been arguing with, but the only reason I dread Sandopolis Act 2 is because the mechanics featured pressure you constantly.

Outside of that, it has great platforming challenges, utilizes speed in unique ways (outrunning sand, getting to torch lighters, fast reflexes for block portions), and has a great boss battle. I really don't see why people would consider it a black mark on the game.

>>3013117

>no see, the game isn't challenging, it's just shit and here is why
>p-p-pathetic

>>3013102
the ghosts get annoying when you're running from the piling sand falls

>>3013102
I would argue that Sandopolis Act 1 is more forgettable than Act 2.

>>3013086
>It's one of the most challenging levels in the game exploration-wise
The level design is almost completely linear with the exception of Knuckles' paths. There is no exploration. It's not challenging, it's just long and boring. Sandopolis 2 is in fact a prime example of the core flaw of most of &K's level design: singular winding paths that exist solely to be long instead of offering an actual challenge.

2's the game I enjoy playing through more often. Its level design is a bit inconsistent in the latter half, but I think 3&K's level design is also a mixed bag though perhaps for different reasons. 3&K frequently feels a bit clumsy. I appreciate the breadth of the game's scope, but it feels like a slog too often for me to say it's better than Sonic 2. Both are great.

>>3013143
>actually not linear by the picture, many parts/exploring
>says its linear without exploring
cant tell if your a troll or retard or never played that game except few times on emulators...

>>3013189
There are literally zero (0) exploration elements if you're not playing as Knuckles. I don't know if you're blind or retarded.

>>3013198
>There are literally zero (0) exploration elements
yeah you are retarded.
>I don't know if you're blind or retarded.
>uhhh..i was called retarded..
>OH i knoe! i will call my opponent retarded and that will show him! xDD

>>3013298
>get proven wrong
>"hurr ur retard"
Wonderful argument.

>>3012651
The level design in Sonic 3 & Knuckles is terrible.
Sorry but its the truth. It looks really pretty but it's not as fun. Angel Island, Battery Zone, Lava Reef, I just remember being completely annoyed all the time. And the power ups were a bit unnecessary. Sonic 2 perfected it

Can we at least agree that 3 has the worst artstyle by far? It looks pixely as fuck while Sonic 1/2 are some of the best aged platformers of the era, they look awesome even on big screens.

>>3013328
Angel island was a good zone. A few varying paths and some verticality in act 2. Better intro level than emerald hill.

I can get why people would like 2 better. But, I'm going with 3 over all because you can save your progress.

It goes opposite what I said for SMB3 over SMW. I am finding my logic is strange.

However, in the case of Sonic 3 there's the whole being able to go back and play as Super Sonic after you've gotten the Chaos Emeralds.

>>3013328
>And the power ups were a bit unnecessary
i see...this thread is full of meme faggots.

>>3013389
Oh, shit. I missed the & Knuckles part.

Shit, there's no contest.

It'd be more fair if you left & Knuckles out.

>>3013389
>I can get why people would like 2 better. But, I'm going with 3 over all because you can save your progress.
If anything that makes it worse because it makes the game piss-easy with no consequences for failure. You can barrel through like a retard and the worst that will happen is you have to start the zone from the beginning.

>>3013398
>It'd be more fair if you left & Knuckles out.
How so? it wouldn't be fair to compare a game with 11 stages (not counting death egg) with a half-game with 6 stages. Given that Hidden Palace and Doomsday Zone aren't true stages, they're more or less equal in scope and length.

>>3013420
and that attachement also lets you play as knuckles in 2. Sure there weren't branching paths or slightly modified bosses, but playing as knuckles did change at least 1 boss fight to be much harder.

>>3013420
Just for being able to save progress.

Plus, tails can fly in 3.

>>3013392
le dont agree? you are meme-man
ok

>>3013328
Flying Battery is fucking awesome.

Why don't people like Flying Battery? It's got amazing set pieces, great bosses, fun level gimmicks.

>>3013505
Music is absolute trash.

>>3013131
And I would confirm that you are correct. Absolutely, Act 2 is more memorable solely for its ghosts and lighting mechanic (which are more or less one and the same thing).

Act 1 was bigger though, ya gotta give it that.

>>3013509
Shit taste senpai

>>3012672
>>3012676
Fucking please

CD was terrible other than the soundtrack.

>>3012729
>Chaotix > 1

>>3013312
Late but... I don't think he was arguing anything anymore. He won the argument the moment you posted the post you posted prior to this one. It looks to me like now all he was doing was pointing out a self-evident fact.

>>3013328

>>3013505
>Why don't people like Flying Battery?
never heard of anyone who dont like FB. music and everything is great.
>>3013509
>Music is absolute trash.
>>3013514
>Shit taste senpai
this thread went full meme/retardation because 1 butthurt was made an ass of himself so hes now shitting on everything.
Just ignore him

>>3013375
I guess. I just remember the disappearing platforms at the waterfall and just think nope this is dumb. Most of it is ok

>>3013531
His argument is that Sandopolis 2 is "one of the most challenging levels in the game exploration-wise." This was proven to be completely false. Everything after that was him sperging out because he can't handle being wrong.

>>3013417
>If anything that makes it worse because it makes the game piss-easy with no consequences for failure. You can barrel through like a retard and the worst that will happen is you have to start the zone from the beginning.
News flash retard: the game was already piss-easy; is, always was, and still would be even without the QOL-boosting save feature. It was deliberately designed so that even children could beat it. It was meant to be accessible. Everyone who equates difficulty with overall quality are morons.

>>3013545
>casualization is a good thing!
/vr/ is dedicated to games older than you are, fuck off.

>>3013420
>it wouldn't be fair to compare a game with 11 stages (not counting death egg) with a half-game with 6 stages.
Yeah it would considering S3's levels are usually twice or thrice the size of S2's. It's just a question of quality (S3 with its fewer, but more substantial levels) vs quantity (S2 with its greater number of relatively simplistic levels). The differences offset so it all equals out to the same amount of content. It's a fair comparison. Sure. But really it's a matter of personal preference so whatever.

>>3012657
git gud

SONIC CD MASTER RACE

i enjoyed Chaotix than CD

fite me nigs

>>3012654
1 reeks of early installment weirdness.
>no spindash
>only six Chaos Emeralds
>no Super Sonic

>>3012654
1 is my favourite, too. it's got the best platforming and varied level design. the others were just press forward to win.

>>3013513
What about Act 1's mechanics? The sandcrawling was kind of unbearable, the weird springs were okay.

Shit, the most memorable things about Act 1 are the rappelling segments, and the unique structure of the boss battle. Which, IMO, is topped by 2's boss battle.

I like them both a lot, for different reasons. Sonic 3 is more dynamic and engaging, and a bit more difficult. Sonic 2 is faster and more stylish. I replay them both at least once a year, along with 1 and CD

>>3013591
It's almost like those things hadn't been invented yet, huh? Imagine that.

>>3012651
2 is the the best, and the high point of the series. 1 is good but it doesn't have all of things that make a Sonic game a Sonic game yet, and 3 and S&K are just worse versions of 2.

>>3013635
>Shit, the most memorable things about Act 1 are the rappelling segments, and the unique structure of the boss battle.
Yeah, they're memorable all right. I can still recall the sense of boredom they made me feel.

>>3013720
>1 is good but it doesn't have all of things that make a Sonic game a Sonic game yet,
I never knew spin dash and Tails were that important.

>and 3 and S&K are just worse versions of 2.
How so?

>>3013847
>How so?
The levels are either too straightforward or too confusing, but they never seem to hit a perfect spot. Overall there is a huge difference between Sonic 1 and 2 and I can see someone liking one of them over the other, but at their core 3 and S&K are just more of the same except for a few minor changes. S&K is actually pretty good in general though, but 3 is the most disappointing early Sonic game. The only thing it really has going for it is the save system.

>>3012651
2 > 3 > 1 > S&K > Chaotix > CD

Putting 3&K together isn't fair when they were released and sold as wholly separate games.

>>3012987
>that GODAWFUL Sonic CD that drives you nuts and dont even allow you to enjoy platforming
Git gud.

>>3013905
>The levels are either too straightforward
How can you say this given the sheer size of S3's levels? They are 2-3x that of S2's. That makes S2's levels the ones that are more straightforward, by default.

>>3013905
>or too confusing
So what you're saying is S3's levels were too rich with content. That's not a flaw.

Your view so far doesn't make any sense. I think you're just nostalgic for S2.

>>3013905
>Overall there is a huge difference between Sonic 1 and 2
Ok then. What is it? What exactly makes the gap between 1 and 2 so much wider than between 2 and 3?

>>3013905
>but at their core 3 and S&K are just more of the same except for a few minor changes.
First of all, no. Second, at the core of those games is an engine that is technically superior to the ones used in 1 and 2. Third, all 2D Sonics are essentially just more of the same of Sonic 1 and if you look at the picture all of the changes between each one could be considered "few" and "minor." Fourth, those are not changes, but refinements which are part of a natural process that occurs as a series gradually improves.

>>3013905
>S&K is actually pretty good in general though, but 3 is the most disappointing early Sonic game.
S3/SK are two sides of the same coin so I'm not sure why you'd bother rating them separately. That said, 3 is clearly the better half.

>>3013905
>The only thing it really has going for it is the save system.
Oh come on...

>>3012992
Sandopolis 2 is the only level I legitimately *hate* in any of the main Sonic games (1/2/3&K).

>>3013943
It is fair because they were conceived of as a single game and both were designed with that in mind. It's not the games fault its ambitions exceeded its technology, is it?

>>3012651
2>1>3>S&K>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>3D Blast

Knuckles Chaotix

Haha just kidding. Sonic CD.

No matter which one wins, you're still autistic.

>>3012863
>speedrunners take a shortcut to get through it quickly
Fancy that.

Sonic 1 feels like a very different game than the others. It's not about speed really; there's no spindash and the platforming is more difficult. It plays a lot like a traditional 2d platformer. 2 and 3 feel almost like the same game, sometimes I can't remember which level was in which game. The biggest difference is that 3 has less levels but it has a save system. Sonic and Knuckles feels a little different and more like an actual sequel, but it's not really better than 2 or 3.

S3&K > Sonic 2 > Sonic 1 > Sonic 3 IMO

>>3012712

It's not about platforming; It's platforming with momentum based physics and inclined terrain. Everything in marble zone can be done in mario or some generic platformer. Meanwhile Mario couldn't complete something like Starlight zone or Spring yard.

Labyrinth zone, while kind of a rite of passage, is just flat out bad game design for sonic.

There's a reason they never made levels like that again.

>>3012969
> if people hate waiting and parts that stops your momentum on Sonic games, then Sandopolis 2 is the worst offender.


Only if you can't make it before the door closes.

>>3013509

You can kill yourself now.

>>3013505

They do like it though. It's one of the best levels.

>>3012651

Easily Sonic 3 for me. Didn't grow up with Sonic, but 2 was just frustrating. I didn't care enough to bother with Chemical Plant Zone 2.

Sonic 3 has the best music too. It has some oomph to it.

>>3012651
I didn't like these when they were new. If sonic hadn't came with the genesis I never would've played it.

i only owned 1 and 3 as a kid, but sonic 2 has way more fun levels than 3. 3 is way too short for its own good.

all of them are fun though

>>3012992
>>3013123
>>3014114

Just went over the route map, and basically the second half of act 2 has got a bunch of areas with vertical wrap around scrolling. They basically seamlessly provide a second route that you wouldn't otherwise think as one.

So that's one bit for exploration.

And it's a level obviously inspired by traps and such. it's really fast paced considering how slow the inspiration would have worked in other games.

Plus once you actually play through it several and git gud, it's not slower than other levels.

>>3012651
I'll admit it, 2 was the only one of the trilogy/quadrilogy which I had never beaten, legit or otherwise. I never got past Metropolis Zone Act 3.

>>3014612
I'm with this guy on Marble Zone.

>>3014612

That and sonic levels are expected to have have multiple routes that intertwine with each other.

Marble is literally the most linear Zone in the series.

3&K.
2 is kind of boring after casino night.

>>3014338
>3D Blast
I have fond memories of this game. I know it isn't good, but holy shit I wanted it so bad. It seemed like the future of Sonic to me. I remember buying an issue of Gamefan to read the article about it over and over. I finally got it on Christmas morning, and I think it was probably the first time in my life I tried to convince myself a game was good when I secretly knew it wasn't. At least it was pretty, and some of the music is great. And I still have that issue of Gamefan. It's the only magazine I ever saved copies of.

>>3014532
I agree about Sonic 1. 2 feels like everything clicked. 3 feels like more of 2, but in a bad way. Levels are just so bloated and drawn out, and have too many "hold right" auto-play segments. To me, 2 was the perfect balance.

>>3014612
>Everything in marble zone can be done in mario or some generic platformer
This is the reason I almost never play Sonic 1 for more than the first Zone. Marble is such a suckfest.

>>3014612
>not liking labyrinth zone
fucking disgusting

>>3014076
Not him but

>How can you say this given the sheer size of S3's levels? They are 2-3x that of S2's. That makes S2's levels the ones that are more straightforward, by default.
Size =/= complexity. A lot of S3&K's levels were very linear with almost no digression from the main path unless you played Knuckles and maybe Tails. Sonic 2's levels had more in the way of branching paths.

>Ok then. What is it? What exactly makes the gap between 1 and 2 so much wider than between 2 and 3?
The spindash itself made the game much different because you no longer had to build up momentum, which for a momentum-based platformer was big. The S3&K shields weren't as big a factor because they were temporary and situational, and therefore the devs couldn't base the gameplay around them like they did with the spindash. Tails and especially Knuckles are as much of a gap in gameplay, but were handcuffed by being limited to unique paths in the same levels as Sonic, and if you're just playing as Sonic then it's Sonic 2 with bells and whistles.

>S3/SK are two sides of the same coin so I'm not sure why you'd bother rating them separately.
Because they were released separately, at full price, and therefore those of us old enough to have actually played them when they were released remember how disappointing it was to beat Launch Base and realize that was the end of the game until Sonic & Knuckles was released (again, at full price).

>>3014117
It's unfair because it's comparing two separate content packages to an individual game. It'd be like comparing both Warcraft 3: RoC and TFT together to just Warcraft: Orcs & Humans.

>>3012651

>>3015693
>Size =/= complexity. A lot of S3&K's levels were very linear with almost no digression from the main path unless you played Knuckles and maybe Tails. Sonic 2's levels had more in the way of branching paths.

No they're not you fucking liar.

Oh boy here we go.

I think Sonic 3 and Knuckles is the best, with Sonic 2 in second, and Sonic 1 in third.

Sonic 3 and Knuckles was what every Sonic game should have been. It had tight controls, amazing level design, great music by Michael Jackson, and a decent 2-player mode where everything didn't look squashed.

Sonic 2 was ground work for Sega to get to Sonic 3 and Knuckles. Sonic 2 was much bigger than its predecessor and dare I say, more cinematic. It's also noteworthy for giving us Tails and the first 2-player mode, even though everything was squished down and looked like crap.

Sonic 1 was a first go at Sonic and gave the dev team a list of do's and don'ts for future games. For example, Labyrinth Zone was a shit.

In conclusion, Sonic 3 and Knuckles was what Sega was really working towards from the beginning, and deserves to be considered the best Sonic, if not the best Sega Genesis game, of all time.

I won't give an opinion on Sonic CD since I love that game to the death and my opinion would be biased.

>>3015703
>Warcraft 3: RoC and TFT together to just Warcraft: Orcs & Humans.
I know nothing about those games but RoC and TFT sound like expansion packs. If they are your analogy is invalid. SK wasn't an expansion pack; it wasn't conceived as an addition to S3. Your problem is you evaluate games by what's on the outside when it's the inside that counts. Sonic 3 may have been delivered via two separate cartridges -- both of which do technically qualify as video games, yes -- but that is incidental. At every stage of each half's development cycle they were designed as a singular entity. Fundamentally, what any game "is," is a set of rules and principles. It's the same set of rules and principles governing the content contained within each cartridge. Stop thinking of games as consumer products. Stop defining games by their packaging. Stop factoring superficial criteria into your analysis.

>>3016179
Dude, just look at any level map from Sandopolis 2 onward (the entire second half of S&K) and take out the Knuckles/Tails paths and you can see how stupidly linear they were. The only thing they did was have them wind around a lot so they weren't Mario-style hold-right-to-win, but there was one path for 75% of those levels.

>>3015693
>Size =/= complexity. A lot of S3&K's levels were very linear with almost no digression from the main path unless you played Knuckles and maybe Tails. Sonic 2's levels had more in the way of branching paths.
>>3016179
What he said.

>>3015693
>you no longer had to build up momentum, which for a momentum-based platformer was big.
A big... what? Flaw, maybe? Because when you put it that way it sounds downright game-breaking.

Of course, it wasn't. It was a simple but important addition. It's usefulness outweighs any one shield or character ability introduced in S3 because the spin dash plays into the most important aspects of the game's genre like nothing else could; however, collectively S3's innovations carry a lot more weight. Knuckles' glide mechanic alone is incredibly fucking nuanced and I can assure you it was much harder to program than the spin dash.

Besides, isn't your argument -- that the spin dash is the best thing that ever happened to Sonic -- based on its usefulness? Okay, but why are you ranking abilities that way? Just because something isn't useful doesn't make it bad. Tails' flight may not be as "useful" overall as the spin dash generally is, but it's still a good ability in its own right; and in fact, in certain situations it is far more useful. The same could also be said for any other shield/character ability.

>>3015693
>therefore the devs couldn't base the gameplay around them like they did with the spindash.
So you're telling me they couldn't, and didn't, base any of S3's level design around these new powerups they added? Hah. No. They could and they did, and they did it extremely well.

3 felt gimmicky, thrown together, the graphics looked uglier because they were too "slick", the music was ear-splittingly horrible, and the level design was very uneven.

It was still a fucking great game, but 2 was better.

And 1 was the best.

>>3016373
>What he said.
See >>3016316
It's not as much of a problem in the Sonic 3 half but it's a huge problem in the S&K half where the level design devolves into winding corridors with almost no branching paths.

>A big... what? Flaw, maybe? Because when you put it that way it sounds downright game-breaking.
I'm simply pointing out that the existence of the spin dash means the difference in gameplay from Sonic 1 to Sonic 2 is more than from Sonic 2 to Sonic 3. Again, my argument is based on Sonic's gameplay and acknowledged that Tails and Knuckles' gameplay were just as much of a difference, so the rest of your post is irrelevant strawmanning.

>So you're telling me they couldn't, and didn't, base any of S3's level design around these new powerups they added? Hah. No. They could and they did, and they did it extremely well.
Completely false. Temporary shields means they couldn't rely on the player having that ability. There could be no instances where the player as Sonic was required to double-jump or dash forward or have drowning immunity because there was always the possibility of the player losing that ability (or simply never getting it) which would render those areas unbeatable. Conversely, the designers could create sections where the spindash was required because you it's impossible to not have it when playing as Sonic. Same with Knuckles' branching paths taking advantage of his climbing and gliding. The shields were a convenience, but were not as game-changing as the spindash was.

>>3016316
Yeah but when S3K had linear paths, they were still made so that the player go explore and find secrets if they were observant and skilled enough. It also let players who wanted to go fast focus on one set path rather than having to try and find the "optimal" route, which Sonic 2 has a shit ton of.

Sandopolis is garbage because it's built like a Mario level. Forcing the player to work under the level designers rules. Mario levels always have to be don the "right" way or else the player won't be able to get through them. The game places a heavy importance on teaching the player basic mechanics so that it can make gimmicky obstacle course levels that require the player to understand them to be beaten. The great thing about Sonic is that it lets you go through the level however you want letting really skilled players get the most out of the game.

Sonic 2 had this problem where there was always a "safe" route that had the most powerups and space for the player to do pretty much anything, and the levels that encourage exploration where pretty linear, with the exception of Chemical Plant. S3K is designed in a way that lets you go through it however you want. Players who like to explore can use their abilities to get to secret areas and shortcuts, and speedrunners can focus on a single path, which requires skill to speed through.

>>3016393
>S&K half where the level design devolves into winding corridors with almost no branching paths.
Bullshit. Show me a SK level map and I'll show you an ingenious work of art with tons of different paths, including multiple character-specific ones which all coexist in harmony within the broader level. That said, I do agree that S3 was by far the better half.

>>3016393
>acknowledged that Tails and Knuckles' gameplay were just as much of a difference,
Oh, ok. So according to you, each of those 2 characters' gameplay additions are worth the equivalent of 1 the additions that separated S2 so far from S1; so, you're now saying the total amount of change between 2 and 3 is 2.x times (twice, plus whatever worth Sonic's abilities add) the amount of change between 1 and 2?

So you'll admit you were wrong before, then -- right?

>>3016393
>Temporary shields
There aren't any.

Time isn't a factor for the shields so they're not temporary. They will never expire so long as the player doesn't take damage. It might sound like nitpicking but I think that's an important difference.

>>3016393
>There could be no instances where the player as Sonic was required to double-jump or dash forward or have drowning immunity because there was always the possibility of the player losing that ability (or simply never getting it) which would render those areas unbeatable.
Completely right. That would be bad level design and they didn't do that. What they did do, however, was create optional -- not mandatory -- instances similar to those you described. That's good game design because it's rewarding, not punishing.

I'm not sure what you're saying here exactly. I agree the character abilities in general were more significant than the elemental shields. Certainly, for Tails and Knuckles that was the case. But what about Sonic?

>>3012651
3 & Knuckles was my first, and the soundtrack is GOAT, so that.

When I was young I thought the red mouth shadow for Sonic in the first 2 games looked kinda like he was wearing lipstick.

>>3016316
>>3016393

> A lot of S3&K's levels were very linear
> Oh wait, I actually meant the second half of S&K :^)

Nice goal post shift there.

I decided to pull out the route maps just for you and here's how it goes.

Lava Reef Zone act 1: First half is kind of linear but second half has quite a few alternate paths and secrets. Knuckles' route can actually access most of Sonic's route.

Lava Reef Zone act 2:
Kind of the opposite with the first half having lots of divergent paths but then merge together for the final section.

Hidden Palace Zone: Obviously an expositional level to move the story along, I hope you're not seriously counting this.

Sky Sanctuary: Another cinematic stage that's obviously trying to be easy as build up for a the final stage.So this is the only level I'd say is linear, but it's still a great and iconic level. That and there's quite a few shortcut opportunities and secrets for tails.

Death Egg Zone act 1: A solid 2 routes for Sonic until everything merges for the gravity chamber 85% of the way through. Also has a dedicated Tails route.


Death Egg Zone act 2: Another solid 2 routes until a merge about at about 70% of the way in.

Also nice try saying Knuckles' routes somehow don't count, when they're obviously legitimate routes and part of the game content.

So just one level.

He's a better metric for determining quality - seeing as how the opposite of love isn't hate, it's actually apathy, which Sonic game is the least memorable to you - what zones do you always sorta of forget exist? Post before reading other's lists.

Sonic 1
Spring Yard Zone

Sonic 2
Aqua Ruins Zone or whatever it's called.

Sonic 3
Marble Garden Zone

Sonic & Knuckles
None. Additional Text

Sonic CD
Metallic Madness

>>3017178
>Metallic Madness
>not Collision Chaos

>>3017178

>forgetting about Spring Yard

you break my heart anon

>>3017178
>forgetting about zones

I thought the games were good BECAUSE they were unforgettable.

>>3017178
I remember every single one. Matallic Madness is especially memorable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHM7sz6uMWk

>>3018206
>low quality
>not posting the mash-up
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXgI2Q2FPiA

I recently played through sonic 2, sonic 3 and k, and sonic 1 in that order

Sonic 2 and 3&K I find to be equally fun, but 2 is way more challenging, 3&K is like a breeze which isn't exactly a bad thing, but it's still very easy.

Now....Sonic 1, jesus, I had almost no fun playing that game compared to the others, it's really frustrating not necessarily because it's super hard but because it just doesn't let you do what you want, a lot of times I found myself purposefully having to slow down and just use the normal walk to avoid dying.....once again, not exactly hard to do, but that is NOT fun

>>3012657
>with incosistent level design

That's more of a flaw with Sonic 2 than 1 and this is coming from a guy who's favorite game of all time is Sonic 2. The game is a complete cakewalk until after Oil Ocean where a sudden difficulty spike comes out of no where.

>>3018394

Get good at Sonic 1

>>3018394
>a lot of times I found myself purposefully having to slow down and just use the normal walk to avoid dying

Doesn't sound like it's the game's fault.

>>3018254
Why did you post that cluttered garbage? It sounds absolutely dreadful.

>>3018442
So it's only fun once you've completely memorized every stage step by step? Sounds like more work than is needed since playing through it otherwise isn't fun compared to the other Sonic games

>>3018447
How is it not the games fault? It seemed like there were way more areas where running ahead results in death, other people even said that ITT in the form of "it has more platforming" in which case, I'd play Mario if I wanted that, Sonic promises fast gameplay, kind of defeats the purpose when you have to break from running constantly for platforming that doesn't allow it

This was my first time playing Sonic 1 100% through so I can't be very specific, but I found myself in positions too where if you go too far forward you get stuck and getting back to where you NEED to be to progress through the level becomes a pain, really counter intuitive in a game where you'd think you're supposed to go fast

>>3018516
It sounds like you're reliant on the spindash, rolling is just as effective.

That, or you're blindly running face-first into unknown territory. You reap what you sew.

>>3018516
>Sonic promises fast gameplay, kind of defeats the purpose when you have to break from running constantly for platforming that doesn't allow it
>really counter intuitive in a game where you'd think you're supposed to go fast

I really want to believe you, but these parts of your post just scream second hand opinions.

>but I found myself in positions too where if you go too far forward you get stuck

I can't really vouch for this complaint, unless you're talking about the various Labyrinth Zone extras, but tell me you're supposed to go fast there (yes you are, but it's all in the flow, not the speed).

>>3018142
>>3018148
>>3018180
>>3018206
>Post you own list before reading other's
Sonicfags confirmed for no reading comprehension.

>But I remember them all (smugface)
How about you play the games without trying to immediately recall them, and see which zone makes you think "Oh yeah, this one now..."

>>3018542
Do you think they're all bullshitting or something? There's no basis for that kind of assumption. Don't be such a pussy dude, so some people disagree with you, get over it.

>>3018542
Even by its longest extent, Sonic games remain comparatively short to something like Mario, where levels make use of the same assets while padding out particular challenges/gimmicks and so on. Every stage's feel is suddenly more hard to remember, because unless they're good for 1up milking, you won't even have to go through them again in a while. While with Sonic and its whole arcadey nature you're bound to make most of what little you have and burn any experience in your mind, especially since the graphic/music design always remained spectacular and is easily remembered. Doesn't help that the various zones through the games are referencing each other a lot.

>>3018542
I remember every Sonic stage ever, you'd literally have to be retarded not to considering they all have distinctive music and themes

>>3018548
Wow sorry trigger you, calm down.

>>3018565
>>3018583
Okay maybe I phrased it wrong. I meant which levels are you usually apathetic towards, like when it starts you have no strong feelings for. When you start the game you're thinking "Oh yeah Starlight Zone - oh right gotta beat Labrynth Zone" or "Time for Mystic Cave... Right after Casino Zone..."

Also why do Sonicfans always shitty and/or salty so easily? I know memes and e-celebs have made the franchise the laughing stock of the ignorant but God you think knowing that you'd be chill here were people know better.

>>3018781
>gets called out for being a jackass
>HAHAHA UR TRIGGERED!!!11! LOL
Quite possibly the best retort in an argument I've ever heard.
>I phrased it wrong
How do you fuck up the wording of something so simple that badly?

>>3013516

>>3018781
You have no reason to assume these people are any more or less "Sonicfans" than you are. If anyone here is acting "triggered", it's easily you.

>>3018542

I read it but I didn't feel like thinking about which ones I'd forget/liked less, I just wanted to say that you broke my heart because Spring Yard is my favorite zone period.

>>3013516
>Fucking please. You can just piss right off with those wrong preferences of yours.

>>3018827
>you broke my heart by not remembering that my favorite fucking Sonic level exists
What the hell is this, a Tumblr blog? For God's sake, Anon, seriously.

sonic 2 has the best fucking soundtrack ever.

>>3018838

No, it's just me being sincere to you.

Sonic CD > Sonic 2 > Sonic 3 & Knuckles > Sonic 1

>>3018910
They'll never understand us, anon. We will always be the outcasts.

>>3018820
I like Sonic, but I'm going off the fact I do honestly forget some levels exist as evidence that I'm a few levels of... "Fan-ness" then those guys.

>>3018863
That wasn't me you replied. Sorry bro, I just sorta forget it comes when it does. Not sure why, but same thing happens to Aqua Ruin zone (I'm still sure that's not its name). I reckon I'm bad with 1 & 2 because 1 isn't my favourite, and 2 I've always appreciated through the cut content as oppose to what's actually in it.

>>3018935
>I'm going off the fact I do honestly forget some levels exist as evidence that I'm a few levels of.
And others are going off of the fact that they remembered it differently, or more clearly. "Fan-ness" is irrelevant.

>>3018935

Close, Aquatic Ruin Zone.

Seems like your brains wants to skip on the 3rd zone in each game.

I like both, Spring is my favorite on 1 because of how playful it is (my favorite pinball-themed zone in any Sonic game), and I just love the setting. A sort of resort urban place in the middle of a valley, love it. Plus dat music, could never forgive it.
Aquatic Ruin I also love because of its setting (I used to call it the "romans level" when I was a kid), and the music, but the level can be annoying with the underwater parts, not my favorite, but I also can't forget it.

>>3018910
Since you like CD I assume you're an explorationfag, so why don't you like 3&K more than 2 since its levels are bigger and have more secrets?

>>3018956
It's funny I should remember Spring Yard zone for its music, many years ago I open a flash game in computer class and it used the same music, almost got in trouble, and Aquatic Ruins because the whole Neo-Green Hill zone thing. Hilltop Zone to because it was one of few levels complete in the Nick Arcade Sonic 2 prototype, but again I tend to forgot it. Metallic Madness I'm not sure why, maybe just because Stardust Speedways boss feels more "final boss"-y. Sonic 3 & Knuckles is probably y favourite, so I have better recollection, but maybe I associate the end of Hydrocity with the flooding of Carnival Zone Act 2, and the music to Marble Zone is kinda bland.

Sonic Adventure I had no recollection of Sky Hills for some odd reason, nor of Red Top Mountain Act 2. Adveture 2 I probably would forget Sonic/Shadows level the easiest because they're fun but pretty quick compared to the rest.

>>3019023
Exploration is fine, but I actually think Sonic CD has more simplicity and replayability than S3&K. Don't get me wrong, I love all of the games, but I find it harder for me to feel motivated to replay S3&K than I would CD or 2.

>You will never play Sonic 3 & Knuckles remade in the Retro Engine like 1, 2 & CD

Thanks Michael Jackson

>>3019067
It was trash anyways. Literally the only thing it did right was remove the speed cap so you can move the same speed while jumping, but its stages are bloated as fuck and the game drags on too long and has too many gimmicks.

Even CD was better than 3&K.

>>3019076
>it was trash anyways
Practically everyone else thinks the opposite.

>>3019119
I think SEGA/Sonic Team disagrees.

But hey, fuck them. What do they know about Sonic, right?

>>3019162
If the games for the past 2 decades are any indication, nothing.

>>3019186
Bet you haven't even played most of them faggot.

Most are above average to pretty fucking decent, which aside from 1, 2, 3&K and CD is the average for the series. Even '06 would have been pretty good if they FUCKING FINISHED IT.

>>3019260
>Bet you haven't even played most of them faggot.
I have. Don't make assumptions, it's stupid.

>>3019260
Only Generations' 2.5D stages were good. Everything else after 3&K has ranged from sub-par to shit.

>>3019270
So basically you like 2D Sonic? Fine, just don't call all 3D shit just because it isn't your preference.

>>3019270
so what about the handheld games

>>3019287
sonic advance was great, but those were outsourced to Dimps and don't count as Sonic Team entries

>>3013131
For some reason I always loved the boss in Act 1. Maybe because it was just weird as fuck? I mean, he isn't controlled by Robotnick or some weird robot, he's just a golem.

>>3013589
I could never play Chaotix for more than 5 minutes. It does look cool and has a very particular art-style though.

>>3019287
>>3019293
>that tiny screen can't see where the fuck you're going
>leaps of faith everywhere
>lots of troll placement of bottomless pits
>levels end up feeling sparse and without very many features

this was always my impression of the sonic advance series, although i have admittedly not played very much of them. they felt like they could have been REALLY close to being great, but those design aspects were just... off

>>3013543
>still going
autism & knuckles

>>3019752
Barring Pocket Adventure and Advance 1 (which are like both prototypes of the final style) Dimps Sonic games have "flow". There's an emphasis on finding and strictly adhering to a specific path, that when mastered, means you can complete any level in roughly 2 minutes without ever having to stop and wait. I think it's a cool system that makes the games almost like speed running for casuals, except like you pointed out in later levels it tends to punish for even slight deviation with lol spikes lol Insta-death.

>>3019260
1, 2, 3, and CD are all great because they have actual physics that facilitate going fast and give the gameplay some interesting substance.

Adventure had some okay physics for Sonic himself, but was ultimately bogged down by this crazy scope full of interconnecting storylines and a doomsday scenario/ancient god awakens plot in a modern setting. People give tons of shit to 06, but everything except the glaring bugs were almost exactly the same in Adventure. The shuttle loops are even easier to break in Adventure too! It's just as glitchy in some areas.
Adventure 2 was just the same issues.
Heroes had some great visuals and a decent amount of content, but the main gameplay mechanic of switching characters was lame. If the levels were just a bit less linear I'd call it the best 3D Sonic game by far. Less intrusive multiple perspectives, traditional plot with less Final Fantasy bullshit, and not completely terrible physics.

Rush games were fun. Not as good as classic Sonics, but good. Still no physics.

Unleashed, Colors, and Generations made some enjoyable games that really missed the point. They didn't just mess-up Sonic physics, they barely had any at all.

Lost World and Boom were shit. Terrible plots, awful gameplay, no substance, and the latter barely functioned.

>>3018429
Is Oil Ocean actually hard? I thought it was just fucking long.

Now Metropolis is fucking brutal.

>>3020539
Lost World was fine, and you should never say it's as bad as Boom.

>>3020539
>Physics
I surprises me people actually notice and compare the physics of each game. I usually just play them and like subliminally take in the differences but never in a way that I could actually quantify/qualify the differences barring extreme things like 2/3 spindash vs CD.
Like I'll never think "This is bullshit I would have made that jump if it was like 2" I just think "oh I guess I can't make that".

I never thought about Adventure vs 06 story. The similarities in design are obvious, but I only just noticed the water vs fire. I've always seen how Shadow is just E-Gamma v2.0, except inferior in every way (edgey for the sake of it vs just doing what he knows).

I thought Colours and Generations were regarded as returns to good form. Also was Lost World really that bad? I don't doubt you on Boom by Lost World seemed alright based on the demo.

>>3020586
Physics generally refers to the way momentum is handled.
As a test, if you can, find a long hill in Sonic 1 to 3, run down it.
Then roll down it without pressing forward to gain speed.

Watch what happens when you get to the end of the hill and how the momentum carries on.

Now go to Sonic 4 and try.

Or watch a Youtube vid.

I recently played Lost World. It's an okay game that steals liberally from recent 3D Mario games. It's slightly above average platforming game, but nothing special.

It's certainly no fucking Sonic Boom.

>>3020596
Well didn't 4 use the Dimps engine, which is fucked up.

>Not Dimps
>Run to gain acceleration and slowly reach top speed
>Roll to keep momentum on slopes, lose momentum slowly
>Use momentum on slopes to make aerial progress

>Dimps
>Run to move fast instantly
>Roll to attack enemies and lose all momentum instantly
>Tricks tricks tricks to make any aerial progress

>>3020539
>>3020586
>>3020596
>>3020612
Basically, pic related. Although it doesn't cover rolling on slopes, which is a huge momentum boost.

>>3020646
Well the restriction ultimately helps the "flow" system by giving you less room for error, and aside from different final launch trajectories a lot of those angles and jumps seem pretty useless outside of a "too difficult to be fun" to romhack, although the this is an isolated example. I mean I'm all for "easy to learn, hard to master" for those that want it but I've never hard to think that hard about when I'll launch of a ramp so this is all cool but useless information to me.

But to each their own!

>>3012651
I always perfered CD just because of the atmosphere. but objectively S3&K is the best....
then again that's coming from someone who enjoyed the game gear games, alex kidd the lost stars, and pac-land which are all considered mediocre to sub-par by most so make of that what you will

>>3020778
>Well the restriction ultimately helps the "flow" system by giving you less room for error, and aside from different final launch trajectories a lot of those angles and jumps seem pretty useless outside
Oh bullshit. Are you legit saying having less depth in jump mechanics/physics is a good thing? Please.

>>3020826
>objectively S3&K is the best
>>3020826
>I always perfered CD
>>3020826
>so make of that what you will
But you got it completely right. Props to you for seeing things clearly and admitting the truth even if it conflicts with your own personal favorites. I think we would all be better off if more people could hold views like you.

>>3022842
No, I'm saying the restriction was obviously implemented to compliment the gameplay design the utilised, not that it was inherently worse (or better) than the old style.

That said, I PERSONALLY still think that while the amount of possible trajectories is cool, it's overdesigned, as I never found it necessary to learn and master it.

But that might differ for you, being your own person with preferences and tastes and apparently lack of reading comprehension.

CD is the best.

>dat time travel gimmick
>dat explorative level design
>dat Redbook audio soundtrack
>dat Metal Sonic race and classic Amy
>dat pastel artstyle which looks nicer than any other game
>dat super peelout animation which should've been brought back

>>3022868
Maybe if you had written your thoughts in a more coherent manner in the first place it wouldn't be so hard to comprehend what you meant to express. And also what you meant to express is wrong.

>>3022882
>dat super peelout animation which should've been brought back
this is the real travesty throughout the sonic series

>>3022912
The gamegear games had it too, so great.

>>3022932
You sure? I don't remember Sonic doing that figure-8 animation in those.

I still don't get how this is a debate. Let alone a great one.

At this point this is just a Sonic thread, isn't it?

>>3022974
I can't wrap my head around how his legs could move like that at any speed, let alone fast enough to form an 8.

>>3023369
I guess it magically operates like Tail's... Tails.

>>3012667
>>Way Better artstyle that doesn't look flat and messy

Sonic 2's levels pop out better than Sonic 3. Sonic 3 has no unifying visual style. It has too many fire & water effects. On the genesis it looked unfinished. I just think Sonic 2 was fresh as fuck. Sonic 3s title screen looks like shit too. Fake ass 3d sonic straight out of donkey kong cuntry.

>>3023612
>Nigga can't handle an extra dimension of Sonic
2cool4u

Came in late, didn't feel like reading 200 posts, forgive me.

Sonic 1 is terrible. As someone else pointed out, if you wanted slow platforming segments like in Marble, just play fucking Mario. And don't get me started on Labyrinth. Water levels are hated for good reason.

Sonic 2 was slightly better, but its emerald minigame was utter bullshit. People are playing the game to be Super Saiyans, don't make it prohibitive. Also that flying zone. Yeesh.

Sonic 3 is good, but add Knuckles and it becomes a Mario 3/World-tier platformer. The only reason to own a Genesis, IMO.

>>3023951
As much as I'm going ultra elitist about fucking Sonic of all things, I really wish people of your kind avoided getting involved with the series and just stick to Mario.

But no, you nintendrones always venture into the unknown with certain expectations and then have to apply your biased logic to everything you didn't invest the time into fully understanding and basically just diss anything remotely unfamiliar.

>>3023974
I grew up with both. Your anger is your own problem. I loved both series equally. I just honestly don't believe that Sega had Nintendo's game-smarts before Sonic 3 + Knux.

>>3023982
>I grew up with both.

Sure you did, bub. Have you ever been near an arcade? Serious question.

>>3023982
>I just honestly don't believe that Sega had Nintendo's game-smarts

That sounds like something an underage nintendrone would say.

>>3023994
Why is that relevant? I'm talking about SNES vs. Genesis.

>>3024004
Why? Sounds like a strawman to me.

>>3024009
>I'm talking about SNES vs. Genesis.

Precisely.

>>3024009

"Nintendo's game-smarts" is hilarious and sounds like something a kid would say. You're way out of your element.

>>3024016
In any case, yes, I do frequent actual arcades. The ones where you drink hipster beer and play Pong. Now fuck off, your gaming elitism means nothing to me.

>>3024029
No, this means that Nintendo has fundamentally always been better than Sega at making games. That's why Sega is now beholden to Nintendo. You retarded piece of shit.

>>3024031

Why can't you just admit that you're bad at Sonic games and move on? Nintoddlers can't handle the speed and physics of Sonic games and you've further reinforced that belief. Instead you like to whine about how difficult Sonic 1 was for you and "ppl play game to b super saiyan y they make it so hard 2 be!!!!!!!!" as a criticism for Sonic 2.

>>3024054
I won't admit I'm bad at Sonic games, because I've 100%ed all of the Genesis games.Your use of language makes you look foolish and childish. I recommend you change that if you want to affect minds.

So, as the smartest, and hardest to contest poster: Sonic 3 is the winner. Add Knux for extra goodness.

>>3025239
Sonic 3 had too many water zones.

>some bits of Angel Island
>Hydro City
>Carnival Night act 2
>Launch Base

The proper Genesis-CD-32X ranking is Sonic CD > Sonic 2 > Sonic 1 > Sonic & Knuckles > Sonic 3 > Knuckles Chaotix

>>3025250
>bitch can't even handle some h2o

Sonic would not be proud of you. Congrats on choosing Sonic CD though.

>>3025279
Even Sonic himself hates water. And in the games water physics are just not fun.

>>3025318
>Even Sonic himself hates water.

I know that, but he's determined so he goes fuck you and does not let the water get in his way to fast. Why can't you be a little more cool like Sonic anon?

>>3025325
Sorry, anon... I'll try to be kooler.

>>3025337
That's better. And remember not to ever give up on the sun. You don't want the sun to laugh at you do you anon?

>>3025347
Only if you work that sucker to death. He's faster, stronger, more excellent, and second by second the distance grows longer. Heh, he doesn't stand a chance.

Sonic is GAY, Mario RULES.

>>3022847
Thanks, I try my best to do that sort of thing. I mean I liked all the genesis/mega drive games but sonic 3&k had not only the best integration of multiple sonic characters but it also had the most coherent story with the cutscenes and such, from what I can tell. My only complaint/nitpick is that they resorted to creating another robot version of sonic instead of using metal sonic. However, I can see why someone would like sonic 2 or even 1 better because from my experience they have a more "arcade" feel to them. Both had no save feature and relied on continues and such. Plus the zones were a lot less interconnected. Things like the special stages or those slot machines also make it kind of feel arcade like. I can honestly say that if both had been originally in the arcades and only 3&k or cd were genesis originals I wouldnt be surprised. However, the thing that also gives sonic 3&k an edge is that it takes these concepts like the slot machine gimmick and the special stages (at least sonic 1's special stages) and not only builds off of them but puts these into one larger game that obviously was made. By people who understood what made the first two (and to an extent CD) good and expanded on it. They knew people wanted to play as knuckles or tails at the time so they had that be a feature, they knew that people who played CD at the time would want a sonic game with continuity and story so it was a feature, there are plenty of these examples that as someone who likes the mario games I can honestly say none of the classic mario games save for 3 or world maybe really attempted that sort of thing. But thats just my opinion and I could also be very wrong.

>>3025359
That's only funny if you play some game, but after that he's gonna get you. Gotta get real, you know the deal, what you gonna do he's gonna do, so you better get yourself ready for a fight, 'cause all the systems are green light, yo.

I'm out of here.

>>3025362
Irony or not, agreed.

>>3025363
>Another version of robotic Sonic
Actually the development of Metal Sonic is like a subplot between each game. First there's the big clunky Sonic 2 Version, then the CD "built for speed" version, then the combination 3&K "Metal Super Sonic" version, and finally the Knuckles Chaotix Kai Version which has elements of Knuckles as well. Then there's all the portable Sonic offshoots that fit in there somewhere.

The CD design was probably just the most popular (the movie helped) so they keep him like that.

Tail's Doll and Robo Knuckles were kinda out of nowhere, but really they only exist for extra characters for Racing and because Dimps has a boner for Sonic v Knuckles fights.

>>3025380
Ha, you might think you know everything I can quote, but that won't help you, because I know everything you can quote! STRANGE ISN'T IT?

>>3025363
I don't think they knew shit about CD, otherwise they'd have used the improved camera, animations and roll jumping.

>>3025556
Well part of me thinks that its because of technical limitations that they didnt do that but like I said before I can always be wrong.

>>3025487
I suppose, I still think metal would have made more sense but they went with what they wanted so I cant complain really.

>>3025508
We are definitely cool, sweet n' catchy, but in the end, there is only one Sonic, the most famous hedgehog in the world. Welcome to the next level in LIŃE ͢11̡1͘1҉ EM͟ƯLA҉TOR͞-

いけれーなｱ

2D Sonic > 2D Mario
3D Sonic <<< 3D Mario

Mario has more good 2D games than Sonic though.

>>3025672
When did this become a new thing though?

>everyone says sonic generations is a return to form
>try it out
>3D stages are alright
>the """classic stages""" don't have proper physics and just feel like mario with a spindash

I don't get it. Why can't sega get the physics right? The physics were the underlying concept that morphed into Sonic 1 in the first place. It was a good game, but I was definitely disappointed and I felt it lacked something.

I'd really like to see a 2D sprite-based sonic game that involves sonic running on different planes in the background, foreground, and middle, guardian heroes style. That's what Sonic for the Saturn should've been. Oh well.

Also Sonic 3 is the better game, but I find myself returning to Sonic 2 more often because its levels are the perfect bite-sized goodness for pick-up-and-playability. Sonic 3 is more of the sort of game that I want to sit down and spend a couple hours playing.

>You will never play a good 2D Sonic game ever again

>>3025672
>2D Sonic > 2D Mario
>Mario has more good 2D games than Sonic though.
Excellent.

>>3025610
Oh no!

I don't entirely get this quote except for the Amy Rose in KC ref.

No way! I can't believe this!

>>3025676
People need to think the game they prefer is "objectively better" because it's the only way they feel validated for wasting their life playing videogames instead of leaving their parents basement, getting a job, making friends, getting laid etc.

It's sad really that people just can't appreciate all aspects of the form of entertainment they most prefer.

>>3012651
I prefer Sonic 2. Nostalgia is a huge factor. Love both tho.

>>3025742
>people just can't appreciate all aspects of the form of entertainment they most prefer.

How can you say this and not realize that people's affection for certain games is just an extension of that? Their favorite games are a form of the form of entertainment they most prefer. I don't see how that means they necessarily enjoy other games any less. If anything it just means they enjoy some games much more than average.

>>3025676
>>3025742
It's just my opinion, lighten up guys.

>>3025760
>>3025765
My apologies, I'm used to the Game A
> Game B thing meaning "Game A is the best game ever and I'm going to shitpost the entire thread if anyone disagrees" than "I prefer Game A".

Also is the game tre/vr/'s playing meant to be indistinguishable? I can't identity it.

>>3025793
No harm done.

Looks kinda like 3D World Runner to me.

>>3025732
It wasn't really a quote, just a mashup of different Sonic related stuff from differently obscure sources. I actually checked the Japanese story manga to get last bit, which is supposed to say "That's not good".

>>3025842
>"That's not good!"
子供たちは、そこにあなたが好きな誰かに抱きしめされているよりもより多くのクールな何もない、誰かが代わりにしたり、不快に感じさせるような方法であなたに触れるしようとすると、
いけれーなｱ !

>>3025712
Holy shit. What movie is this from?

>>3025889
You win. Here's a link to what I'm listening right now, just because you deserved it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGie7fML2PY

>>3012651
3 feels like a larger experience.

better music
the graphics don't feel flat
element shields
smooth level transitions
the story is more than just some bullshit in the manual.

I played 2 to death as a kid, but I don't prefer it over 3.

>>3012651

Horrific autism and crushing depression wins every time

>>3025934
But it's Sonic 2 vs Sonic 3 not Sonic 2 vs __you___

>>3025993

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH

>>3025906
Needs more Knuckles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXDNBBh2QSo

>>3025742
True.

3 was for people who sucked at sonic so they had to make it easier.

>>3026407
>Believing Sonic was ever hard

>>3026446
EASIER

>>3026407
Is this truly your belief?

Out of nostalgia, I'll say that I prefer Sonic 2. But Sonic 3 & Knuckles is probably the better game overall.

>>3025712
The fangames Sonic: Before/After the Sequel are pretty dope. Although fair warning their more CD/3&K than 1/2, with a dash of Kirby. CD in that you can super peel out and all the music is MP3 (one of the composers for official Sonic called it amazing), 3&K in physics, stage layout (at times linear but exploration is possible) and Kirby in that occasionally you get powers (in Before when you enter the water stage you're given a non-loseble Bubble Shield with double jump, in After some levels have a Beam power for Sonic and Smirror for Tails, thanking their only forced on you for one level, oh and the Super Sonic ending zone is... Unique). Just don't play the third one, Chrono Adventure. It gets too heavy with the powers and has a story like an awful fanfic.

>>3025712
What's up with those borders on the tv? What version of Sonic has borders? And what's with the controller? What kind of faggot uses the arcade stick to play Sonic?
Fucking idiot doesn't even play on a CRT
Immersion broken, piece of shit movie, would not watch

just kidding, where's that from?

As someone who's only really played two versions of Sonic 1 (Master System/Mega Drive) and Sonic CD my list would be Sonic 1 MD > Sonic CD > Sonic 1 MS
I've played 2 and 3&K but only for like, an hour on KGen98 so I don't really have an opinion on them yet. I'm sure they're fine games though.

>>3012728

I love marble zone because I don't mind -not- going fast. If Sonic was nothing but the hold-right stereotype people applied to it it really -would- suck, but Sonic games (the first one in particular) have some really solid platforming segments.

Sonic is the meme I wish would die. I say this as someone who grew up with a megadrive.

Gonna add sonic to the thread filter tomorrow

>>3027980
You're a meme.

Sonic 3 had special zones that didn't induce migraines, so 3 is better.

>>3012651
>Which is better: The wright bros' flier vs a 747

They were both good, but 3 was better. S&K was better than 3. 3+S&K was best of all. They learned from their mistakes and built to bigger and better things. That's not to fault their stepping stones, they just had to work their way up.

>>3027952
We have a winner. Congratulations.

>>3028259
>S&K was better than 3
Haha, no. But please, try and defend your position.

>>3028690
S&K had Flying Battery and Death Egg, some of the gnarliest zones in the old games.

>>3028710
...gnarly?

Anyway, not really. Flying Badery's main redeeming feature is its soundtrack. Okay, not really. But it is one of the most unfinished, emptiest of all the zones. And Death Egg likewise has good music but its gameplay is... gah. Yeah it has extensive bosses, but so does S3's final level. And unlike SK, S3's final level just feels much more Sonic-y. Its more concerned with refining and delivering dat fast, fluid gameplay that epitomizes the series rather than being a hard and challenging last level which happens to be largely based around a somewhat annoying gravity gimmick (DEZ).

>>3028690
I liked the zones and ost better and I like playing as Knuckles.

>>3028804
You know this raises the question which is the best character? Objectively it is Knuckles.

>>3028817
Sonic & Tails > Knuckles > Sonic > Tails

>>3028817
No, best playable character of the retro games is Vector the Crocodile.

>>3028825
>Sonic & Tails better than Sonic alone

I mean sure the whole lifting thing but Sonic is way past cool for that. And I don't like fuckers behind me that parrot everything I do.

>>3028853
>not tossing your little bro the player 2 controller
>not letting him just be happy to be playing a such rad game with his big sis
>not purposefully slowing down then speeding up just to mess with him
>not letting him clumsily fly you around so he has fun and think he's helping

>>3028861

london

>>3028861
So did you fuck him?

It's not about the levels man, it's about the music, and nothing beats this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm_3NssNOPM

>>3028843
Isn't vector a geometric term? I suspect Vector the Crocodile gets his name from that. Since a lot of the Sonic games' staff (ie, the coders) would have been very familiar with the term, having to use it in various calculations like jump angles and such.

>>3028853
I don't think it's fair to count a team of characters as one, single character. Knuckles still wins. Sonic in S3/K only is a close second however, due to his many shield abilities.

>>3028883
>I don't think it's fair to count a team of characters as one, single character.
That's exaxtly how the game works, it's more fair than not including the duo

>>3028881
Though meaningful/punny names are common in Sonic, Vector's name doesn't follow that rule.

this

>>3029052
>Sonic - Super Sonic
>Miles "Tails" Prower - obvious
>Knuckles - chuckles
>Dr Ivo "Eggman" Robotnik - shaped like an egg, turns animals into robots
>Metal Sonic - herpaderp
>Fang - has a fang
>Espio - espionage
>Heavy - he's heavy
>Bomb - he's a bomb


>Amy Rose - she's pink?
>Vector - he moves in vectors?
>Mighty - he's strong?
>Charmy - what the fuck man?
>Ray - this is ridiculous...

Yeah that theory doesn't quite hold up.

>Big - he's big
>Rouge - she's a slut
>Shadow - ow the edge
>Cream - ?
>Cheese - oh wow that's terrible

Sonic 3&K

Better looking than 2, faster than 2, less disjointed platforming/controls feel more fluid, obviously its the bigger game, more varied.

I'm bored of Emerald Hill, Chemical Plant and Casino Night zones in 2...

Who is blacker: Knuckles or Vector?

>>3028881
Vector's name actually stands for Vector Synthesis

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_synthesis

Which makes perfect sense because in the original drafts, Vector was going to be the keyboardist in Sonic's band.

>>3029280
Ah. Thank you.

Judging by how awesome the band looks in that image I'm sad the idea never took off. Surely they would have been huge.

3&K is better than 2 in every way.
But Adventure is the best.

>>3029306
Was 3K not a good enough adventure for you? What's the matter, did it not have enough fishing?

>>3012651

Definitely S3&K for me. Even Sonic 3 as a stand-alone game was more enjoyable than S2.

S2
>The game is considerably long, yet lacks a save feature. This is especially retarded if you're going out of your way to collect all the Chaos Emeralds.
>Tails is only a liability in the special stages. There's absolutely no benefit to playing with both Sonic and Tails at the same time.
>I'm supposed to fight two bosses in Death Egg Zone, with zero rings? Fuck you. (Although I have beaten it a few times)
>Fucking Metropolis Zone
>S2's special stages are a tedium. There's absolutely nothing fun about repeatedly turning blind corners and hoping you (or Tails) don't faceplant into a barrage of mines. Later stages leave zero margin for error.

S3&K
>Fucking Sandopolis Zone
>It may be an autistic nitpick, but I hated how collecting all the Chaos Emeralds locked you out of collecting further continues. You weren't able to return to the special stages after that, thus no way to earn additional continues.

So yeah. S3&K has far less bullshit.

>>3029479
>>It may be an autistic nitpick, but I hated how collecting all the Chaos Emeralds locked you out of collecting further continues. You weren't able to return to the special stages after that, thus no way to earn additional continues.
You're right. That is the most nitpicky complaint I've ever read about the game.

>>3029479
>This is especially retarded if you're going out of your way to collect all the Chaos Emeralds.

Dude once you first grab them you probably got how the special stages work and you can be SS as early as Emerald Hill (although you will probably not enjoy that zone very much). I agree on playing Sonic alone if not with a friend. I agree the game kinda drags if you don't have the chaos emeralds and it's your first playthrough.

Let me add it's a stupid thing to enable Super Sonic just by jumping. In Sonic 3 you're actually given a choice.

>I'm supposed to fight two bosses in Death Egg Zone, with zero rings? Fuck you.

No scrubs allowed.

>There's absolutely nothing fun about repeatedly turning blind corners and hoping you (or Tails) don't faceplant into a barrage of mines. Later stages leave zero margin for error.

Not going into detail, but each stage has their own patterns (some global) instantly recognizable by anyone paying attention or failing often. Once you get the timings, and remember the patterns or know them in advance, you can go blind even if they were random and still succeed.

>You weren't able to return to the special stages after that, thus no way to earn additional continues.

You can farm continues on the slot machine bonus by having close or more than 50 rings (if you don't get sent into the glowing sphere/gumball stage). And I mean, come on. You could apply that literal complaint to Sonic 1, or even Sonic 2 because you couldn't even get continues inside the special stages.

>>3029479
Let's be fair, the game hurls extra lives at you like crazy and you can farm an infinite amount in Launch Base Act 1. There's no reason to even see the continue screen.

>>3027952
bro what are you even doing in this thread then

>>3029507
>Not going into detail, but each stage has their own patterns (some global) instantly recognizable by anyone paying attention or failing often.

Rote memorization is not fun. This isn't fucking Contra, it's Sonic the Hedgehog.

>You can farm continues on the slot machine bonus by having close or more than 50 rings

No you can't. I actually tried this, but the bonus stages don't reward you with any continues, even when you hear the continue chime. This is possibly related to a bug.

>>3029584
>Route memorization is not fun

I didn't talk about fucking route memorization, but pattern recognition, so that you don't HAVE to memorize anything if you're smart enough to take some hints.

>but the bonus stages don't reward you with any continues

I literally have 34 continues on a single save and got all the emeralds relatively easy. I suggest you to double check.

>>3029584
>>3029602
I just remembered you need to actually complete a 2-act stage for the continues to actually register in the saves. Perhaps that's your problem.

>>3029584
>the absence of a game-breaking exploit which lets you farm infinite continues is a bug indicative of overall poor game design

Why do you even need continues? It's not like it erases your save file if you run out. If you do use a continue, does it not just start you back at Act 1 even if you were in Act 2 before? Literally no difference than getting a game over and reloading your save file from the main menu. Continues in this game are literally useless. Besides, in what possible scenario would anyone ever even need them in the first place? The game is specifically designed to be as accessible to everyone of all video game skill levels and experience -- a 6 year old child and a 60 year old man both stand a fair chance of overcoming every obstacle the game throws at you. Plus there's 1-ups littered all over the place.

Why in the actual fuck is anyone bitching about continues?

Anyone else convinced that Sonic is a girl when they were a kid?

>>3029602

That's rote memorization, Anon, not route memorization. You have to memorize the locations of mines before you can complete the special stages. That is rote memorization. There aren't any factors that allow you to anticipate the mines' positions.

>>3029623
>I just remembered you need to actually complete a 2-act stage for the continues to actually register in the saves.

Tried that. Didn't register. Check it out for yourself.

>>3029683
>Why do you even need continues?

That's not the point. It's just a permanent red mark on your save file. Your continues get frozen at a certain value and you can't do anything to change it. I'm sure other people don't find it to be an eye sore, but it's always bugged me.

>>3029623
You know, speaking of acts, what always bugged me about Sonic 2 and 3&K that I liked better in 1 and CD was the "Act" title on levels. In 1 and CD, there's 3 "Acts", which mimics the 3 act structure of most films or TV shows or fictional stories in general. But 2 and 3&K completely botch the reference by having only 2 acts per level.

>>3029962
I can't recall ALL of the patterns without having the game in front of me, but they usually give a fair warning, and you're supposed to apply that warning throughout the stage. One of the rules is, if there's a curve, there are likely mines in the center or the sharp corner. You should also have enough reaction time to jump should you sight the mines for a split second (protip: jumping in the exact same moment you get hit by the mines will detonate them without any ring loss).

>>3029970
I actually tried getting a continue from the slot machine focus, got a game over and it gave me the continue. I did this on a no-save game, but if you want I'll check it out later on a save file. Why don't you illustrate the exact procedure you went through, in the meantime?

Sonic the Fighters is the best sonic game. Simplified VF but it makes up for it with actually interesting mechanics and a shocking amount of depth in the barrier system.
>Tfw AM2 is kill

>>3029253
The cock in your mom.

>>3029927
Huh, when I think about it it wouldn't be until CD that it was confirmed ingame. Didn't but just assumed he was a boy. Most mascot platformers were.

>>3029927
No. I thought Tails was.

>>3028690
Dude they're the same game.

>>3030839
Then why can't I play Sonic 3 levels with just my S&K cart?

>>3030848
Well I mean its supposed to be the same game they just split it up into two carts, for lack of space I presume.

>>3028875
we didn't get that far

>>3030867
I know. Doesn't mean we can't evaluate each half separately. It's only useful for comparing them to eachother, though. If comparing S3K to other games it makes more sense to view them together.

>>3030867
Nothing to do with lack of space, it's because there was a deadline and they needed to ship a product. It's ultimately a single game.

>>3012969
Sonic 2 had an entire level where you were stuck on a rail. All you could do was attack enemies. No momentum. No platforming.

>>3031497
Technically you could platform on the turtles if you wanted to.

>>3031495
>Nothing to do with lack of space
Actually, a lot to do with that.

Is this thread finally dead, like any chance of there being another good Sonic game?

>>3012987
>liking advance 2 over 3

Advance 2 was beyond atrocious, though. It was pretty much hold right to A) Win or B) fall into a pit. Far too much emphasis on speed, and virtually no true platforming sections. Even the fucking bosses fell victim to this. And then the whole collecting emeralds thing was tedious as all fuck, requiring you to break the pacing of the gameplay to collect those special rings in a single segment of the act. The fact that you needed to do this each time with EVERY character made it worse.

Advance 3 wasn't perfect, but I've replayed it far more often, thanks to having far superior level design (isn't just fucking speed speed speed), and emerald collecting system to A2 (collecting those chao is PERMANENT, and effects full game, rather than individual characters).

>>3033895
Will there ever be a 2D Sonic game with pixel art as gorgeous as the Advance games?

>>3012651
Sonic 3 & Knuckles has higher highs than Sonic 2, its lows aren't as low and the whole package is massive in comparison to Sonic 2. It also has some of the best presentation and music in any 16-bit game, let alone the series.

If you treat Sonic 3 and Sonic & Knuckles as two separate games then the competition is a little closer but I still think it edges out on Sonic & Knuckles' favor. All three games have their weaker stages but Sonic 2's are all loaded at the end of the game and makes the entire last quarter of the game a fucking drag, while Sonic & Knuckles only really has Sandopolis Act 2 and maybe the first stage of Lava Reef if you're nitpicky. Sega has treated them as a single game for years though.

Sega got more comfortable with Sonic's level design with every subsequent game, and each one added new playable characters and polish to the formula. Each game was better than the last in its design, and that mixed with Sonic 3&K's sheer ambition and amount of content makes it easily the more memorable of the two.

Sonic 2 still has some of my favorite zones in the series and it's a great game, don't get me wrong, but I can't understand how anyone would claim it's better than the Sonic 3 duology.

>>3034102
Sandopolis Zone 1 is god tier, but Sandopolis Zone 2 is a lot lower than any Sonic 2 zone.

>>3035090
Act 2 is more boring than any single level in Sonic 2 but I found the entire stretch of Metropolis Zone dreadful.
At least Sandopolis is over in a few minutes and not three levels.

>>3034030
Not reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetro!!!

Nah but seriously I love the Advance series for their music alone, the gameplay is a nice bonus. While different from original Sonic, sometimes is fun to "push right to win" as long as you actually learn the level and also try to learn the layout and finish even quicker, so by the time you've mastered it, it almost feels like your speed running.

The graphics are great too, basically just Genesis style without (as many) colour limitations.

>>3012651
Winner is Sonic Jam.