/vr/ - Retro Games

Sounds completely subjective and not based in anything other than opinion and perception.

Though honestly S-video seems like a waste of time when you can just use RGB on most of the good stuff like SNES or Genesis, and modded Famicom and PC Engines and whatnot.

>>2730767
pal has a higher resolution that's why it's sharper.
pal is:
768x576
1024x576
(in video pixels: 720x576)

ntsc is:
640x480
854x480
(in video pixels: 720x480)

>>2730778
Sure, but there's a lot of consoles and computers that have S-video but no RGB.

>>2730807
What has S-video but not RGB? Out of those, what can't be modded for RGB?

>>2730778

The PAL standard has more resolution, that's why the image can be seen as better.

>>2730815
It's cheaper, besides I don't play on them that much, Things like the 3DO the FM Towns Marty and others have a S-video port which makes it more favourable over modding every single one of them to RGB.

>>2730832
Well if you're that concerned about video quality or even using a 3DO then I won't argue with you. The FM Towns Marty has some pretty dope titles, though.

>>2730767

PAL got lucky by having SCART/RGB inputs on their TVs, but NTSC wins because we've got dat silky smooth 60fps.

>>2730778
Sounds like you're giving an opinion without ever seeing it.

>>2730990
Silkier smoother PAL60

>>2730805
>in video pixels
What?

>>2730990
No one really had it all right until digital inputs like HDMI became standard. Do PAL systems still use 25/50fps instead of 30/60?

>>2731018
>Silkier smoother PAL60

huh? PAL standard was 50fps for the longest time, up until HDTVs became a thing from what I know.

>>2730767
S- video is a huge step up in fidelity from either composite standard anon and one which almost anyone can achieve on a run of the mill crt

red is better in pal, even in s-video.
for retro vidya pal higher resolution isn't used

>>2731030
>from what I know
It's been a thing for the last 25 years or so

>>2731748

I know this word gets thrown around a lot on this website, but you've seriously got autism.

PAL beats NTSC on both color and resolution. 50Hz isn't much of an issue either, it's just than games were designed mostly in 60hz regions. PAL60 destroys NTSC on absolutely everything.

It's still encoded video, though. RGB > *.

PAL60 wasn't very popular mostly because TVs back then didn't really know what to do with it due to the colour subcarrier being a non standard value. It was popular on third world shitholes like southeastern asian countries, but on the rest of the world it was either pal50 or NTSC.
Nowadays most sets support it.

>>2730990
We could also get 60Hz on RGB, PAL and NTSC are only color encodings.

>>2731440
>for retro vidya pal higher resolution isn't used

It is in a number of games, but it only becomes noticeable up to 5th gen.

>>2731023
yes. video pal and ntsc have rectangular pixels.
monitors and modern tvs have square pixels.

>>2731029
of course they do and alway will until we reach 300fps/Hz.

>>2731030
pal 60 is basically ntsc 480p 60hz but with superior pal colours.
so you either have to choose between higher res 576p 50Hz with slow down
or low res 480p but in 60HZ but also with the PAL colors.
both suck. thank god we have hdmi 2.0 with 1080p@100/120Hz.

>>2731030
pal 60 is as old as ntsc and pal. pal tvs were always compatible with 60hZ and are still now. unlike modern us tvs that cant play back 50hz. kinda weak. like my tv can play 24,25,30,50 and 60 hz. yet us tvs can only do 24,30 and 60 Hz, so they have to slow down 25fps blurays to 24fps. mess

>>2731838
Not him but you might want to think the term "pixel" again when talking about encoded analog video.

>>2731857
when you encode video for ntsc and pal you have to encode in rectangular pixels nstsc 720x480px and pal 720x576px. that is a fact. while editing and mastering you work in a 768x576px or a 640x480px time line which is the equivalent in square pixels. so retro games are similiarly encoded like video in rectangular pixels, which is the topic of this thread of pal resolution games. get your smartass out here. you might want to rethink your statement because it has no value in this coherence.

>>2731857
a shame that games aren't analogue but a digital source :\ nice try though.

>>2731884
digital methodology aside, there are purely analog video sources, most obviously VHS and LD but thats not vidya so it doesnt count am i rite? except of course for games that used LD's but that wont be acceptable

>>2731928
yes you are right , vhs, 35mm, 70mm, laser disc are analogue. but even if games used laser discs the source would still be pixels and then converted into an analogue signal.

btw i love laserdiscs.

>>2731935
the console would read the analogue data, create digital pixels with the data (as it a computer) and then outputted as converted analogue signal again.

>>2730767
Consider the following. The Y signal in svideo should in theory be identical to the Y signal in component (not HD of course). It should be able to carry a 'hi res' signal (eg 720+ pixels wide) just as well as component as a result. There's no color signal so PAL or NTSC has no relevance.
You could probably test this with the wii, xbox, ps2? etc by swapping between svideo Y and component Y, checking to see if they seem identical or not.

The C signal of course is different between PAL and NTSC, which in turn means the colorization applied to the image will look different between them. It's effectively 2 similar but different, single wire 'lossy compression' methods of the 2 wire PbPr color signal.

>>2731941
does it really? I would think it'd be easier to just overlay stuff genlock style, rather than digitizing the whole fucking thing. Especially if you consider that the hardware at the time was nowhere near as powerful as computers are now.

games wise didn't really get pal60 until the dreamcast and ps2 came along

>>2731029
Consoles don't any more, at least not as standard, it might be in the options somewhere. We saw support for 60hz grow a lot during the 6th gen.

TV still used 50hz though. Fucked over the Xbox Ones ability to watch tv through the console, how they missed that before launch I have no idea.

>>2730767
PAL has more accurate colors and doesn't need hue/tint adjustments unless you happen to own one of the very early Trinitrons where Sony converted PAL to NTSC internally to avoid paying patent fees to Telefunken. Also the nominal subcarrier frequency is higher.
50hz vertical with 15.625khz horizontal has more resolution but is a little slower than 60hz with 15.730khz.
Another thing worth to mention is how PAL works compared to NTSC that half the vertical color/chrominance resolution is lost when PAL is used because the chrominance of every 2nd line is inverted and used as correction reference for the next line. The inspiration behind this was that neighbored lines (like line 100 and 101 of someones face for example) tend to be very similar to each other and this makes PAL almost as easy to implement as NTSC but with a little more effort for more accurate colors.
This loss makes the quality gap between PAL S-Video and RGB larger than NTSC S-Video and RGB.

>>2730805
Analogue video doesn't have pixels but lines.
What you mention are the square pixel resolutions for 4:3 (14.75MHz for 50hz and 12.27MHz for 60hz) and 16:9 (19.66MHz for 50hz and 16.36MHz for 60hz) and these "video pixels" are the BT.601 resolutions (13.5MHz).

>>2730815
>what can't be modded for RGB?
Cheap chinese garbage which is locked down and proprietary.

>>2730990
>but NTSC wins because we've got dat silky smooth 60fps
And now I mention 24fps movies/films.
2:3 pulldown is terrible to look at and that's why I prefer smooth looking PAL speedup with 4.1% higher pitched sound.
But still, 50fps is still higher than 30fps.

>>2731440
>for retro vidya pal higher resolution isn't used
Depends on what the console hardware can do and how software uses it.
It's not the systems fault if devs were lazy not using the full capabilities.

>>2731758
>he knows something I don't
>if I call him an autist maybe I won't feel so stupid.

>>2732954
>that's why I prefer smooth looking PAL speedup with 4.1% higher pitched sound.

My niggor, you also really notice the difference when camera pans ensue and I'm a sucker for that 4% higher pitched sound.

>>2733036

Unfortunately, you've got it too.

:/

>>2731956
>Consider the following.
You are theorizing on known facts. Stop that. Y=Y=Y.

Is it worth buying an S-Video/RCA cable for a PAL Sega Saturn? I'm only using RF at the moment and it kind of sucks. Which one is better for the Saturn, S-Video or RCA?

>>2733423
Saturn S-video is excellent. But they were all RGB native, I don't know why you wouldn't just get an appropriate cable unless your display doesn't take it.

>>2733429
I bought it with the RF unit, but am looking to buy an S-Video RCA dual cable. What do you mean by appropriate cable? They were packaged with the RF units.

>>2733434
I'm saying if you're a PAL-lander then you could get a SCART cable for your Saturn and have native RGB.

>S-Video RCA dual cable
gah, those tend to be garbage. Go for S-video if you can't do RGB.

>>2732954
the games or videos are rendered in pixels though and then converted to analogue signal. so talking about pixels is right in this case (except analogue mastered video). but thank you for clarifying that the term for none square pixels is. i've learned something today. BT.601 resolutions.

So Rec. 601 is basically the grandfather Rec. 2020? kek

>>2730805
>>2732954
>>2733516
"Bt. 601 resolutions" is also just a beat around the bush.
The correct term is indeed non-square pixels.
This comes from the difference between DAR (Digital Aspect Ratio) and SAR (Storage Aspect Ratio in this case PAL and NTSC and the conversion/encoding of digital signal into analogue signal like it is the case in old video consoles.