/vr/ - Retro Games

Model 3 was an incredible piece of technology

Imagine seeing this in 1996 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBbMoCmwSXw

Pitfall on Atari 2600
Wolfenstein 3D on PC
StarFox on SNES

>>2713103
That's pretty crazy.

>>2713094
Everything about Hunter.
Another World.

>>2713094
Arcades were always ahead of its time.

>>2713094
mclaren f1 is my carfu
>tfw they only made 5 lms
>tfw i will never ever own one

>>2713204
That's a retarded way to aim.

>>2713103
It was amazing for the time, but then again the dreamcast came out only 3 years later and the ps2 only 5.

>>2713207
you would aim in a weird way too if your bones were made with jelly

>>2713210
And virtua fighter 1 was only 3 years before, what's your point?

>>2713214
Nothing, just crazy how fast technology was evolving at the time. You barely had time to be amazed at Virtua Fighter 3 then less than 3 years later Soul Calibur was a launch title on the Dreamcast.

>>2713204
This. First game with bump mapping

Wave Race 64. Unmatched water physics for its console generation, and even gave arcade a run for its money for a short time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGy3x_pcAbs

Some people think its water physics is still the most fun to this day

>>2713103

Is that cloth simulation in real time in 1996 ?
Holy fucking god.

>>2713103
Pretty good. I wonder if Model 3 could have pulled off Soul Calibur or DOA2.

>>2713103
I did see VF3 in the arcades back in the day. It did blow my fucking mind

>>2713210
Model 3 is more powerful than a dreamcast though, doubt the dreamcast could handle a 1:1 port of Scud Racer or Daytona 2. Sega Rally 2 is downgraded.

Were there any games released before Conker's Bad Fur Day that had lip sync speech matched to pronunciation-based full-facial animation? (that like, affected more than just lips)

>>2713256
Shenmue
But for the most part and most dialogues they're just moving the lips

Pretty sure more games had it even before Shenmue though.

>>2713256
Atlantis.

>>2713263
>>2713264
I suppose, but I guess they are really 99% lip based. Conker was the first time I saw facial animation that I thought was actually convincing (but only on Conker himself) because his entire cheek structure properly moved when he mouthed out words.

Starsiege Tribes.

>1998
>multiplayer only
>32 players per map
>vehicle combat
>base management
>amazing moddability
>still ahead of its time in 2015

>>2713248
That's true, by the way how is the Sega Rally 2 port on Dreamcast?

>>2713237
>Unmatched water physics for its console generation
I don't know about that, Crash Bandicoot 3's jetski segments were damn close.

>>2713248
>Model 3 is more powerful than a dreamcast though,
Really? I'm pretty sure the Naomi is more powerful than the Model 3 and the DC is just a Naomi with less RAM.

>>2713305
I think he meant actual physics, not graphics, as in the way when you land from a jump you create an actual wave in wave race.

>>2713305
>Crash Bandicoot 3's jetski segments were damn close.
Not close at all...but it's one of the better attempts I guess

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykksfxX6Y10

>>2713324
Looks pretty close to me. It's especially impressive when you consider the hardware limitations and the fact that the game was primarily a platformer and that was essentially a minigame.

>>2713330
>Looks pretty close to me
I wish you well with your visual impairment.

Seriously look at the course at the 6 minute mark in Wave Race 64. Crash Bandicoot 3 has very simplistic waves and tries to disguise it with an animated texture on the water. It's pretty obvious.

>>2713248
Nah man the DC is more powerful than Model 3. The Sega Rally 2 port is inferior because they were contractually obligated to make one DC game with Windows tools or something and sadly Sega Rally was it.

The first DC demo ever shown was it running SCUD Race. Never came out though, obviously.

>>2713340
I said close, not better. And again, the PS1 hardware is really limited, and it's impressive that they could even pull that off.

>>2713417
>the PS1 hardware is really limited, and it's impressive that they could even pull that off.
It's good for PS1, definitely. But this thread is about games that were ahead of their time. Looking almost as good (and I still don't agree with this) as a 1996 game in 1998 isn't ahead of its time. Hardware shouldn't matter too much for this assessment, since if it did it would be unfair to use Model 3 games because it uses super expensive military grade chips.

>>2713204
I remember playing this as a kid and never getting past the first level...

Did the arcade version of VF3 have ground deformation? I know the inferior DC Genki port featured this as well as PS2 VF4 versions. One thing I do remember it having in addition to crude cloth simulation was motion blurring. That's one of those neat features 3dfx had on Voodoo 5, but sadly nobody else cared to implement on other 3d hardware. It's an absolute shame Lockheed Martin's Real 3d was a blip on the radar and never went anywhere. I'm sure that's also the major reason why all Model3 emulators suck ass is because the 3d hardware was so non-standard.

>>2713437
I'm not really concerned about the "ahead of its time" thing, just the point about "unmatched" water effects. It may be the best, but I don't think it's unmatched.

>>2713248
I don't know about the 166MHz 603ev speed bump, but the SH4 in the DC was faster than the original 66MHz 603 used for VF3. Model3 had not one, but two specialized GPUs originally designed for military simulations. The DC used commodity PowerVR GPU meant to compete against 3dfx. There were some things it could do in hardware that Real3d couldn't, but it also came out later. Overall you're probably right. Model3 was a brute. Sega spared no expense. I think that was the last great system before they went with cheap commodity hardware and eventually gave up using only PCs.

>>2713605
Though Naomi 2 did come out soon afterwards, which is more powerful.

>>2713285
Never really played this in its prime; any recommendations on a primer of the mechanics and why people love it so much? I know the basics with skiing and whatnot but that seems like only half of it.

>>2713248
Is that why Daytona 2 was never ported?

>>2713103
I didn't know about this! That would be impressive in 2000/1; for 1996? Absolutely mind-blowing.

>>2713560
Do you seriously not see the contradiction there?

>>2713216
And ragdoll physics.

>>2713296
It's infamous. It runs at 30FPS, and you have to put in a code to make it run at 60FPS. It's not bad, but not quite the classic the first one was.

>>2713094
Christ almighty, is this what they based the Dreamcast on? See this is what baffles me. Sega and Yu Suzuki's finest were capable of things consoles could only dream of doing and yet Sega thought it was okay to release the Sega CD, Sega 32x, and Saturn as they were. So much disparity.

They really were dancing with the lights off in a utility closet for quite some time. Oh Sega.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oc85td77ABw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6U3WhZrVHc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGaj2HnVUI

>>2714748

Parallax scrolling is one hell of a drug.

>>2713204
>dinosaurs on the moon

>>2713296
It runs at half the frame rate of the arcade even though it's on more powerful hardware. It's a lot closer to the arcade than the Saturn version of 1. The problem is that 1 is just more fun to play. The cars handle better and the courses are better designed.

>>2713207
>That's a retarded way to aim.

The main character is a woman.

>>2713530
>It's an absolute shame Lockheed Martin's Real 3d was a blip on the radar and never went anywhere.

Intel bought them up and got them to build a PC 3d card, which ended up being so great that it actually decelerated games. Then they started doing integrated graphics.

>>2714734
What code? I had the impression it tan at 60 but dropped to 30 when stuff was busy (most of the time tho)

Looked absolutely stunning in 1996.

Also, probably not the first use of any following tech, but level streaming, LOD, facial expressions and flexible joints on characters.

>>2714854
>level streaming, LOD, facial expressions and flexible joints on characters.
None of these were remotely firsts.

Crash's only real technical innovation was pre-computing visibility. As far as I know no other game series uses it, because it's literally only useful for corridor platformers like Crash.

Computing visibility is expensive (Mario 64 does it through z-buffer, Quake does it through BSP trees), so the PS1 not having to do it meant it could spend more time processing the actual graphics on screen.

>>2714748
oh yeah
I'm continually amazed at the fact that Sega kept putting out all these really impressive scaling-heavy games in the arcade, and then had no hope in hell of bringing any of it home until the Saturn/32X era.
although, I guess that's really the fault of the MD being released at the end of '88, and Sega not being able to release a more powerful system in between that '88 to '94 time period

>>2714864
Crash's weren't firsts, but there really wasn't anything at all in gaming with animation as good as in Crash at the time. Not in '96.
Its visuals completely outstripped everything else on the PS1 at the time, too -- sure, it's because a lot of it is pre-calculated, but on a resource limited system like that, it's what you need to do.

>>2713103

SEGA should've just swapped their home division for their arcade division in 1996, goddamn. It's especially mindblowing when you consider the butchered Model 2 ports they were releasing on Saturn at the same time, arcades of this period felt like magical places with technology so far ahead.

>tfw still no home port of Scud Race or Daytona 2

>Fourteen playable characters
>Adventurers Guild a la Final Fantasy Tactics's Tavern
>twenty hours of gameplay
>create your own character
>day/night cycle
>on a '91 NES RPG

>>2715083
is it any good?

>>2715086
It's pretty fun. Aeon Genesis' translation of this one has been around for a while too, if you're into that.

>>2715075
>butchered Model 2 ports they were releasing on Saturn
wat

Whilst hardly arcade perfect, the Saturn ports of VF2, Sega Rally, Manx TT etc were excellent.

>>2715075
You know what would have been the best replacement for Saturn? Sega getting the N64 hardware from SGI, putting CD-ROM with it, and reworking the memory architecture so it isn't such a pain in the arse in program (Nintendo cheaped on it so hard).

Then Sega would have brought their Model 2 games over, made a specific microcode that matches up to Model 2, and you would have got Daytona USA and other Model 2 games running absolutely arcade-perfect except maybe at a slightly lower resolution.

>>2715094
Didn't Sega of America want to go with the N64's hardware to begin with? But SoJ rejected it?

>>2715098
Yeah they did, but it wasn't a Japanese design so it got rejected.

Actually scratch what I said, with the right microcode and the N64 memory architecture issues fixed, the system could absolutely run 100% arcade perfect Daytona USA no resolution compromise.

The first version of the Model 2 is actually very comparable in theoretical performance to the N64. Fixing the N64 hardware to make it easier to reach that theoretical performance would have guaranteed arcade perfect Model 2 ports.

>>2715063

At the time? I thought at least Crash 1 and 2 remained the best looking 3D games on the system.

Also, am I correct in saying that very few games on the PS1 had animations as fluid as Crash Bandicoot? Looking back at PS1 games, most of them seem to have an animation that's much choppier than the game's frame rate.

>>2715063

At the time? I thought at least Crash 1 and 2 remained the best looking 3D games on the system.

Also, am I correct in saying that very few games on the PS1 had animations as fluid as Crash Bandicoot? Looking back at PS1 games, most of them seem to have animations that are much choppier than the game's frame rate.

>>2715116
>I thought at least Crash 1 and 2 remained the best looking 3D games on the system.
Well it makes sense, every other 3D game on the system actually had to calculate visibility, while Crash had its handy rendering shortcut.

>Also, am I correct in saying that very few games on the PS1 had animations as fluid as Crash Bandicoot?
Probably, but I always felt there was something a little choppy about the animations in Crash 1.

Also every PS1 game will have slightly jittery animations and rendering due to the lack of sub-pixel accuracy, that can't be helped, it's an fixed part of the hardware.

>>2715128

There were some other games that copied the fixed perspective of Crash Bandicoot, and practically made a carbon copy of it, such as Donald Duck Quack Attack, but those games don't look nearly as good. They're arguably worse than Spyro, which was a free roaming game that looked great.

As for Crash 1 having some choppy animation, there's only one animation that I can remember that is subpar, and it's the short animation of when Crash lands from a jump to complete stop. That's like 3-4 frames of animation. Otherwise, it's smooth as far as I can tell.

>>2713324

Alright, Wave Race has the better water physics, but I want to add that Crash 3's water looks much clearer and the levels run way smoother.

>>2715189
>Crash 3's water looks much clearer
Is that a joke? It looks more like blue-colored mercury than water dude

Wave Race's water actually resembles water.

I'll give you the smoothness, but I'm not surprised considering all its doing is rendering buoys and ramps.

>>2715208

Could be oil polluted, it's plausible. It just looks more attractive that way.

>>2715225
It's really because the water isn't fully transparent (like it is in Wave Race 64), which gives it that metallic look.

PS1 can't render large transparent polygons as well, which is probably the reason they went for the different look.

>>2713256

Crash Bandicoot 2 and 3, I think. It's pretty limited in Crash 2, though. Lots of squash and stretch in that one.

>>2715228

But the water IS transparent. There's even crates placed underneath the surface at some points.

>>2713094
>>2713103
>>2713248

Model 3 was using still classified Lockheed Martin technology at the time. Even if it ever became affordable and compact enough for a console, there was no fucking way any nation would have allowed it to be sold and Model 3 was only allowed to be exported to certain countries as part of the contract Sega had with them.

Sega was playing with some insane shit with Lockheed Martin (They even got them to design the case and internals of the Dreamcast)

>>2713646

Daytona 2 was running on Step 2.1 revision while Sega Rally was on the Step 2.0. Daytona 2 would have had trouble running on an Xbox let alone the Dreamcast (And even the replicas Sumo Digital did for Outrun 2 of Scud Race and Daytona 2 divebombed in framerate frequently. At the same time. Those were some of the best easter egg unlockables ever made). But there were a good few arcade boards like that like Midway Zeus 2 that wouldn't have been able to be realized even in 6th gen. Ed Boon tried to get The Grid to be an Xbox Live launch game but they were told that Zeus 2 games couldn't be ported onto Xbox without significant cuts.

Which makes me wonder how the fuck they squeezed Crusin' Exotica on an N64 cart

>>2715245
The water is compromised of two layers, the blue water layer and the white wash layer. Only the white wash layer is transparent. That's why I meant that the water wasn't fully transparent.

>>2715268
Actually scratch that, it seems to work in a different way. But it's pretty strange, it looks like the transparency is inconsistently applied or something. Whatever it is, the water is definitely less transparent.

It might just be because alpha blending is per-vertex on PS1 and but the more-accurate per-pixel on N64 which accounts for the difference.

It's pretty impressive to see early precursors to 3D sandbox/free-roaming/open-world games like Lotus Esprit, Hunter and Terminator (by Bethesda). They're basically unplayable now, but seeing this kind of stuff considering the time they came out is pretty amazing.

R-Type (1987): First game where you can actually charge a command by holding down a button (in this case charging your shot), I think. It's insane to think how this affected game design, and that this wasn't done before. You started seeing it a lot more with games like Mega Man 4, ALttP and Super Metroid that now had charged attacks after this was popularized. The game also looked ridiculously ahead of its time when it came out. Then you have the Force and all these sub-weapons. Most modern horizontal shmups seem to owe a lot more to R-Type than Gradius.

Renegade (1986): Basically started the beat' em up genre. Had a ton of stuff that was ahead of its time like double-tapping to run, a shitton of moves and abilities like punching and kicking in either direction, running attacks, jumping attacks, enemies that get stunned and take multiple hits to die, combo attacks, jumping on your opponent when he's down, wall-jumping, holding your opponent and being able to throw him (even outside the arena), belt-scrolling. All these varied enemies, weapons, bosses, environments. Graphics were ahead of their time too. It's amazing to consider that this was the first beat 'em up but instead of being incredibly primitive and lousy, it does so much in 1986, even more than what most later 2D beat 'em ups were doing in the 90's.

Chiller was pretty ahead of its time in terms of shock content and gore.

>>2715091

On the other hand the ports of Daytona and HOTD were literally ass.

>>2713094
ROLLING STAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAART

>>2715249
>Model 3 was using still classified Lockheed Martin technology at the time. Even if it ever became affordable and compact enough for a console, there was no fucking way any nation would have allowed it to be sold and Model 3 was only allowed to be exported to certain countries as part of the contract Sega had with them.
>Sega was playing with some insane shit with Lockheed Martin (They even got them to design the case and internals of the Dreamcast)

Are you sure about that?
I'm pretty sure Real3D focused on commercial products. GE Aerospace and Martin Marietta did R&D for military hardware. However, they were all part of Lockheed Martin.

Also, at COMDEX 96(97 maybe), they revealed plans to release the REAL3D/PRO-100 and 1000 as PCI accelerator boards for high-end workstations. Whether they were actually released, I'm not certain.

>>2713094
>gen 6-tier graphics

Let's not go that far.

>>2713094
Ultima Underworld predated Doom and had a full 3D first-person free-roaming massive interconnected world.

>>2716120
Pretty sure the PS2 would have some problems running Daytona 2, draw distance and poly count looks pretty crazy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YvqdCuM7RKM

>>2716120
Gen 6 is the most overrated of gaming gens tbqh.

>>2716167
tbqh running by and calling something overrated is stupid, unoriginal, and it doesn't give anyone anything to work with

>>2713213
youd scream too if alls you had was a skull

>>2716175
Pointless posts get equally pointless responses.

Star Speeder for the Super Cassette Vision was the first ever futuristic racer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2yb5c1MGcY

>>2716185
the subject is not "who did it first", but "who did something nobody else did, or could do, at the same time, and for some time to come"

>>2716191
>the subject is not "who did it first"
>Games that were ahead of their time
bugger off m8

>>2716194
it's a subtle difference, probably too subtle for you

>>2716141
I looked for pop-in that whole video.
might have simply missed it, but I didn't see any

Fucking impressive stuff.

>>2716203
It's called smart level design. The distant objects are always obscured by hills or other objects, so you only start to see them when they're close enough that pop-in happened long ago behind the hill. The track is constantly turning, so you can always place a "wall" in a convenient distance from the camera, and then turn left or right when you get close enough. It's a bit of a lost art nowadays. Level designers just build whatever they want, then blame the engine.

>>2716201
>it's a subtle difference, probably too subtle for you
Stop splitting hairs and just post cool video games you snowflake

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYwDGR3ZJG0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifBJbECq3yE

>>2716225
Outcast, asshole

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BmJd4ZsNMeU
>3:20
Not even close

>>2716240
>that game on the left
I need to play this, has it been emulated yet?

Is there any 3-D platform game that plays decent like mario 64 released before 1996?

>>2716256
yes

>>2715225
>moving the goalposts this adamantly

>>2716373
in some circles it's just not permitted to consider Crash games anything but flawless optimization miracles

>>2716208
>It's a bit of a lost art nowadays. Level designers just build whatever they want, then blame the engine.
Playing through Forza 6, this rings depressingly true.

>>2713204
>dat arm

I kek every time, who thought that was a good idea?

>>2716389
Nobody thought it was a "good" idea, just a passable one. They knew everyone would be too spellbound to care. Then again, imagine how much greater those people's experience would be if this was perfectly polished for release.

>>2716379

They really do seem like some of the most hated games of all time at a technical level, which is really strange. Don't hate something just because it was cleverly optimized for a very limited console.

>>2716415
>They really do seem like some of the most hated games of all time at a technical level
I think it's also because there is a lot of hagiographic bullshit on the Andy and Gavin development blog which a lot of Crash fans mindlessly parrot.

Stuff like Naughty Dog claiming that they were the ONLY developer at the time to develop their game on $100 000 SGI workstations. Or comments that Crash Bandicoot was the first video game character to have facial expressions. You can't get more incorrect than that.

>>2716418

What games did have facial expressions at the time, and were they any good?

>>2716415

>>2716418 nails it. The "hate" is a reaction to mindless worshippers, which these games seemingly attract. It's a good game, probably. But it's not the second cumming of christ, and whenever it's thrown around like that, people will be annoyed and react

>>2716421
The Mario 64 title screen for starters. The Virtua Fighter characters had facial expressions, along with plenty of other arcade games.

Heaps of games did it in 2D.

>>2716415
I've seen nothing but the opposite. Even those that get enraged by its worshippers generally agree that it's pretty impressive.

>>2716421
>were they any good?
Now you're preemptively narrowing the goalposts? Come on now.

>>2716429
>Even those that get enraged by its worshippers generally agree that it's pretty impressive.
I hate the Crash technical fanboys, but yeah I definitely do agree the games were all technically impressive and that Naughty Dog were among the best coders for the PS1.

But at the same time I feel that games like Metal Gear Solid and Ridge Racer Type 4 get incorrectly put lower on the hierarchy of technical excellence than the Crash series because of the following Naughty Dog continues to have.

Crash was brilliantly optimized but a technically unambitious design. While Naughty Dog were busy making their on rails platformer look as good as possible (by pre-computing visibility through the rail view), other developers were experimenting with free cameras and open-worlds that might have looked messy in comparison, but were clearly leveraging 3D technology more. Naughty Dog proved they could do it too with CTR, but hardly anybody wants to talk about that (not even Naughty Dog themselves).

>>2716429

I didn't mean the quality of the games, but the use of facial expressions. Mario 64's is good, but it's not really used at all in the game, just at the title screen.

It's kind of like saying Gran Turismo runs in 60 FPS, when in reality that's only on one specific track, with no opponents, no background scenery, and no rear view mirror.

>>2716435
>While Naughty Dog were busy making their on rails platformer look as good as possible (by pre-computing visibility through the rail view), other developers were experimenting with free cameras and open-worlds that might have looked messy in comparison, but were clearly leveraging 3D technology more

I'm being a bit devil's advocate here, but I'd argue Naughty Dog tried to make a great looking game, instead of using technology for the sake of using it. If rails worked for their concept, and they wanted or needed the visuals it had, then rails were the way to go. Doing free camera or open worlds, just because they're available, are indicators or mindless technology abuse, not game design.

>>2716435

What do you mean with CTR? It's brought up all the time, annoyingly in my opinion, as I wish Crash Bandicoot remained strictly a platformer. Evan Wells brought it up 2007, claiming it will be the one game he will continue play for years to come. It's the same article in which he compares Crash of the Titans to "watching your daughter do porn".

>>2715249
>Lockheed Martin technology at the time
Thats quite spooky.
If they had that kind of tech then god knows what they have now.

>>2716439

Jason Rubin said multiple times recently that in 1996, they had a graphical dilemma.

Back then, he claimed that when it came to on-rails vs open world, it was a matter of the action and flow of the levels, and he has a point. Crash is more focused than most open world platformers.

But in later years, he's claimed that the reason why they went for on-rails was simply because open world games looked awful at the time. He and Andy Gavin compare Mario 64 and Tomb Raider negatively to Crash Bandicoot, for its use of huge polygons with really stretched out, inconsistent texturing. They're right, Mario 64 and Tomb Raider look nowhere near as good as Crash Bandicoot, and it was because of their conscious decision not to go open world based on the technical limitations at the time.

And, of course (just my guess), had Crash Bandicoot 2 or 3 been set in an open world, the sequels would be compared negatively to the original, graphically anyway, so they stuck with the on-rails system. They also had less than a year to make every sequel.

>>2716445
>Crash is more focused than most open world platformers.
A linear progression is more focused than a set of options. This is not Crash specific, it's not even platformer specific, or relevant.

>They're right, Mario 64 and Tomb Raider look nowhere near as good as Crash Bandicoot
See, that's why you worshippers get all the attacks. Tomb Raider made some really smart level design decisions that require the blocky structure, and it works so massively in its favor, it's not even funny. It's no Crash, just like Crash is no Tomb Raider. These are different games, with different goals, pacing and gameplay elements. Trying to put one above the other makes you look like a fanboy.

>had less than a year
Gave themselves less than a year, you mean, to cash in on the momentum

>>2716447

NaughtyDog may have been an independent developer back then, but they still had TWO nagging publishers behind them.

>>2716447

> A linear progression is more focused than a set of options. This is not Crash specific, it's not even platformer specific, or relevant.

How is it not relevant, when it alone could explain their decision to go linear?

>>2716457
I guess my problem is with the wording
>Crash is more focused than most open world platformers
Which is pitting Crash against unrelated games. It's not a level playing field, a meaningless comparison. It's like saying "That Ferrari is so much faster than the F150". Well, duh? They're built with different goals in mind. It's just a throwaway statement that on the surface pretends to establish superiority, because it implies the feature being compared is the sole relevant feature. The kind of constant "Crash is perfect" weaseling that is so freaking annoying.

>>2713134
Pitfall was an awesome game, it got a pc ve
rsion then it went to oblivion

>>2713094
>No mentions of SiN

No game has yet to beat this in terms of level loading time. lyl jay kay here's what I meant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0RqWYx40vo

>>2716439
>Doing free camera or open worlds, just because they're available, are indicators or mindless technology abuse, not game design.
But here's just the thing. Crash Bandicoot did priortise graphics over gameplay. One of the biggest problems with the series is the inability to judge distance when jumping forward to due the camera angle.

You cannot adjust the camera angle because the game engine, by design, can only function with a fixed on-rail camera. This is because the game engine cannot calculate visibility in real-time (which is what would be required for a camera rotation), instead it streams pre-calculated visibility from the CD in time with the movement of the rail camera.l

Crash could have given players the option to rotate their views, but that would have necessitated a sacrifice in graphical quality. Naughty Dog didn't want to give up the graphics, although I can understand somewhat since in 1996 it was pretty much the only selling point the game had (DKC clones were pretty common then).

It is quite interesting how the game has a better reception in retrospect than at the time. All of the Crash games got review scores in the high 80s, while the contemporary Nintendo counterparts got review scores in the mid-90s. But Crash seems to have just as big of a support base a Mario 64, Banjo and co.

I'm not sure if this is just because the Crash fanbase was underexposed to older platformers, whether it's simply because the Crash games sold a lot (especially considering there were 3 of them), or if it's more of a reflection of Naughty Dog's modern fanbase looking at the back catalogue.

>>2716653
>One of the biggest problems with the series is the inability to judge distance when jumping forward to due the camera angle.
That's just shitty level design

>You cannot adjust the camera angle because the game engine, by design
exactly

>This is because the game engine cannot calculate visibility in real-time
No, it's because the developers wanted to keep the camera on rails. Whether that decision was a good one is up to debate

>Crash could have given players the option to rotate their views, but that would have necessitated a sacrifice in graphical quality
It also would have necessitated dedicating controls to the camera, and fucking with the pace and a billion other things. It's a game, not a graphics demo.

>>2716658
>No, it's because the developers wanted to keep the camera on rails
Dude, it would have actually required completely reprogramming the engine to allow for a camera rotation. Rotating the camera even a little bit completely changes visibility.

>It also would have necessitated dedicating controls to the camera, and fucking with the pace and a billion other things
I don't think giving players the ability to hold down a button to see how a jump looks from a side view would have messed with anything too badly. The option did not exist because the engine was not designed for such a feature. I repeat, the engine does *not* calculate visibility in real-time.

>>2716653

> One of the biggest problems with the series is the inability to judge distance when jumping forward to due the camera angle.

Protip, for all 3D platformers, but especially Crash: Pay attention to the character's shadow when timing jumps, until you're confident enough to do without.

> It is quite interesting how the game has a better reception in retrospect than at the time. All of the Crash games got review scores in the high 80s, while the contemporary Nintendo counterparts got review scores in the mid-90s. But Crash seems to have just as big of a support base a Mario 64, Banjo and co.

Because the games weren't really innovating like the N64 titles were, but they are arguably more playable looking back at the games today.

>>2716663
>reprogramming
Things like camera control, or its lack, are decided early on during development, since it affects the gameplay to the very core

>I don't think giving players the ability to hold down a button to see how a jump looks from a side view would have messed with anything too badly
It kills pacing. It enables the level designers to include traps or sections that rely on the camera. It's a very fundamental change.

>The option did not exist because the engine was not designed for such a feature
You have it the wrong way round and just can't see that. The engine was written in a way that's taking advantage of the fact that camera controls were omitted.

>>2716673
>The engine was written in a way that's taking advantage of the fact that camera controls were omitted.
This is can agree with

>>2715157
If you want to see a PS1 game that really ripped off CB look up the Lilo and Stitch game. It was actually a good game though, and had great graphics (Lilo and Stitch).

>>2713207

Maybe she's an OG?

>>2713204
I'm still waiting for another game to use the boob-based health bar.

>>2713204
The creator of this game worked in Xbox creation team?

>>2713094
They called this game Sega Super GT in the US. I guess SCUD Race sounded too weird here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmvWxG2zvs8

>>2716225
Oh sweet, you can't go wrong posting more Star Cruiser.

>>2717639

Seamus Blackley. He even appeared in that documentary made by Microsoft regarding the ET Carts in New Mexico and said Tresspasser is the worst game ever made.

He's one of the industry people I'd love to have a beer with. You should watch the podcast on IGN where he appears with Peter Moore and Phil Spencer on the history of Xbox. It's fascinating as all hell.

>>2716384

Yeah, that game has some pretty goddamn aggressive pop in the distance though at the same time, they were uncompromising on the framerate (Project CARS has awful pop in even on the PC version on ultra as well)

I remember Sumo Digital talked about it when doing the Outrun 2 conversion to the Xbox that the fact those levels were just so packed meant they would drop frames even when using that tech because it still needed to crunch everything into the RAM and they would have rather got those levels mostly intact than drop them (Back in those days when a bit of slowdown wasn't the end of the world).

>>2713642

Everyone can fly and there is a lack of hitscan or even near-instant weapons (excepting the laser rifle, which is situational). This completely changed how you fought compared to contemporary shooters like Q3A or UT.

Tribes players developed skills bordering on the precognitive, landing direct hits mid-air at great distances using these slow-moving projectiles, all while they and their targets are maneuvering freely in three dimensions. It's hard to describe.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7EZStQWQfs

Then there's loadouts swappable on-the-fly, deployables, vehicles, etc...

There's a game called Midair in development by some of the original developers from Dynamix now that promises to bring back the kind of gameplay we had in Tribes1&2.

>>2716442
Pachinko machines

>>2715249
>Crusin' Exotica on an N64 cart
N64 Exotica looks nothing like the Arcade Exotica.

>>2715249
>Crusin' Exotica on an N64 cart
N64 Exotica looks nothing like the Arcade Exotica. It reused the old USA engine.

>>2719290

It didn't actually. USA and World were converted by the original Midway team lead by Eugine Jarvis on the original Arcade engine (With some cuts for Cartridge space). Edge Of Reality did the Exotica port using the original game as a base and ported all the assets down to N64 quality. The game has ridiculous pop in but it's pushing an awful lot of 3D for an N64 game and outside of the framerate is actually pretty faithful for the arcade game.

>>2713285
So much this. My god I played Tribes like crazy. Those shifter servers... ohh boy.

>>2713642
A lot of what this guy said >>2718434

One of the most common weapons is called the disk launcher, which has a fairly slow moving but accurate and powerful projectile. A common battle between two players was referred to as jousting. Both players flying at each other and trying to get hits mid air, but that's quite tough so more common was to aim where your opponent was going to land. Very satisfying.

Also just having teams that large was amazing.

>>2718434
>>2713285

How is this compared to Tribes Ascend? I absolutely loved that game, until just after the official release (I played it in beta). I have never seen a developer so cruelly put its own game in ruins with such abysmal updates.

>>2713103
I miss it when Virtua Fighter was an ambitious game.

>>2720835
We all do, anon.

Seeing VF3 in the arcade for the first time was a near religious experience.

>>2720840
VF4 was pretty dope too, actually seeing a gi's weaving, on top of actual cloth modeling.
And had the best shaolin music ever to boot
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y55i1C2DuJI

>>2720882
VF4 is what made me finally break down and buy a PS2.

Of all the casualties of Sega's dumbness, VF hurts me the most. It should still be getting new additions, it could still be on top of the genre but they've let it fade away.

>>2720892
PS2 VF4 was bad, running in low res.
VF4evo was one hell of an upgrade tho, hugely upgraded graphics and 2 enterely new characters.

>>2720903
That's the one I meant, should have clarified. Looked fucking great.

>>2720835
>I miss it when Virtua Fighter was an ambitious game.

It always was, except for the "updates" they did for VF5, that made the game have ridiculous juggle combos.

I still play VF2 and Megamix on my Saturn, though VF2 has a ridiculously cheap AI while Megamix has a ridiculously easy one.

>>2720919
I ain't got no complaints about 4, especially evo.

It was the first fighting game that actually taught you how to play it, and the training mode is STILL miles ahead of fighting games today. They also had a ton of footage of high level play years before that was a thing that people would look up on youtube.

It's 5 that's boring and unambitious.

>>2720892
>top of the genre

Tekken took that title away way before Sega started fucking everything up.

>>2720919
>>2722126
I enjoy most of 5FS, I like what they did to throw escapes, but the rebound effect they added was kinda pointless and annoying. Jean can do 2 in a combo FFS

>>2722126
>It's 5 that's boring and unambitious.

The re-designed characters looked kick ass for the most part, though. I mean finally they went and took their design somewhere, instead of only just making them look more detailed.

Just look at Lau.

>>2722145
In terms of sales, in the west, sure.

In terms of gameplay? Oh my dear sweet Jesus Christ no.

>>2722175
In the world, actually.

>>2722172
People complain about what happened to Vanessa between 4 and 5 but imo 5 fucked a lot of the character designs.

I'm not going to say that older VF games had great character design, but it was better than people gave it credit for and there were a lot of neat little touches that were lost in 5.

Lau looked like a sick guy in 4 and he looks like a zombie in 5.

VF4 Jeffrey looked cooler because he was strongfat and his animations made him look like someone that actually knew how to fight and use his size effectively. Wolf had a more realistic build and in 5 the poor guy looks like a mutant with his tiny abdomen and huge biceps. In the older games Wolf's moves weren't as flashy, but they looked like they HURT.

Aoi and Pai looked more mature before 5 changed them into annoying teenagers. VF4 Sarah looked like she could actually take a punch.

VF4 Jacky fought like a street brawler that picked up Jeet Kune Do (flip kicks aside), VF5FS Jacky is Bruce Lee clone #27-B. He lost the only thing that made his design stand out.

VF4 Goh had this really cool contrast between his design and his animations. You wouldn't expect someone who looked like that to have a very technical and restrained playstyle. That's what made him interesting...it was almost like looking at a corrupted version of a good guy's fighting style.

VF4 Goh looked like he just wanted to snap his opponent's neck and go home, but this is a tournament and there are rules to follow and that fact drives him up the fucking wall. That's way cooler than VF5 Goh and his generic bad guy moves.

To their credit a couple of characters did get cooler looking (I really like Lion, Shun Di and Lei Fei's new animations).

I just feel like some character was lost in the transition to HD.

>>2722279
>wolf
F-5 and Burning Hammer. It's all that needs to be said

>>2722280
Not as cool as this.

>>2717643
>I guess SCUD Race sounded too weird
Because everyone would've been thinking of Scud missiles and would've been confused by the lack of missiles in a racing game.

>>2722496
Well you could drive a tank in it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNBv4XuU7Q0

>>2716653
>One of the biggest problems with the series is the inability to judge distance when jumping forward to due the camera angle.
I hear this a lot but personally I never had this problem

>>2713237
Dat feel. I loved that game.

>>2714778
Fuck off back to 8chn.

>>2722662
>>2714778
tips fedora

>>2722665
Seriously kid fuck off. We don't need people like you ruining /vr/.

>>2722668
This is some funny shit. I'm not even the guy you were quoting, btw.

>>2722668

We don't need people like you on any chan board to try to enforce political correctness. Fuck off back to tumblr if sexist jokes trigger you so much that you have to respond to 4-day old post to cry about it landwhale.

>>2722691
>>2722678
Great now /v/ has invaded. Just fan freaking tastic. Well it was fun while it lasted but /vr/ is officially dead.

>>2722691
Jokes are supposed to be funny. It's not funny when it's true.

>>2722695
>Great now /v/ has invaded

I thought it was 8chn? Or is it /pol/? /r9k/? You need to pick your boogeymen and stick to them.

>>2722695
Just report and move on m8. Feeding them only makes them stronger.

Both of you fuck off and stop ruining a good thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlglPJWNaUs

This is probably a really popular opinion, but I distinctly remember Killer Instinct in the arcades because the graphics were so fucking incredible. Consoles wouldn't be able to replicate it properly until the 6th generation.

>>2722695
Nobody cares about 8chn or /v/ here, sperglord, stop crying about a 4 day old post and derailing a thread

You're probably the worst poster in the thread

>>2722717
>>2722709
Can you both just leave already? /vr/ has a high standard of posting and you're failing to meet them.

>>2713285
>32 players per map

Holy shit, really? I can remember thinking 16 people per server was boss in, like, 2003.

>>2722721
>that image

Alright you got me.

>>2722558
Hahaha what the fuck.
The tank moving at that speed is some Wacky Races level of weird.

>>2722757
In the Plus update you could also race as various toy vehicles and even as a miniature cat, on the floor of a house.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SY5zA8ttysE

>>2722717
>I distinctly remember Killer Instinct in the arcades because the graphics were so fucking incredible

I'll never understand what made everyone think "fucking incredible" when looking at 90s CGI sprites and backgrounds. The only impressive thing in KI was the backgrounds.

>>2722774
>various toy vehicles and even as a miniature cat
In NFS 2 you could race as a massive log, or a shopping booth. Beat that.

>>2722782
I like Manx TT's secret vehicle https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UM80XjnYeJE

>>2722779
Of course if you look back now the porcelain doll art style looks dated.

>>2722787

>>2722779
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT_UCNGrKdM

Link related was cancelled after the devs saw Killer Instinct operating at a video game fare.

>>2722793
>that pseudo-3D
>hand-drawn art
oh my god that is so nice looking

shame the game doesn't look all that fun

NGE 64, not sure if ahead of its time, but I think it's one of the most impressive 5th gen games, granted it came out in 1999, but I remember watching videos of the game back then (in Realmedia) and shitting my pants over how good it looked.

>>2723085

It's kind of a perfect storm of playing to a lot of things 5th-gen consoles could do well.

>>2722782
Runabout
one of the stock vehicle is a Vespa, you can get propelled to the sky if you hit gas canisters.
Then you can unlock an RC car.
A bus
A dumpster truck
A F1
A tank. That can go up to 300 kph under the righ conditions, never knew if it was a bug or intended...