/vr/ - Retro Games

>>2635270
The Mysterious Dungeon games
Azure Dreams
Baroque
Quest mode in Total 2

>>2635301
>Total 2
*Tobal 2

>>2635270
Ehrgeiz quest mode (it's so good)
Chocobo's Mysterious Dungeon 2
Dicing Knight
Shiren the Wanderer
Time Stalkers is a very pseudo-roguelike type game

Actually I'm not quite sure what the fuck Time Stalkers is some times

I don't think the developers were sure either

I really wanna say Dark Cloud because its sooooo comfy but I guess its NOT ALLOWED

>>2635507
I really really really don't like this game

Alright, this is probably a very stupid question.
But...what exactly qualifies as a "Roguelike" game?

>>2635538
This is either bait or someone who does not know the can of worms he just opened up.

>>2635538
Usually a randomly generated dungeon. Most people would argue that a "true" roguelike is turnbased combat, but there are some others that don't have turn based combat (Dark Cloud)

>>2635538
A game that is like Rogue.

>>2635932

I know this is 4chan but it's a pretty innocent question.

>>2635538
ascii graphs and poor balancing

>>2635538
Mostly this >>2635959
The key elements are a randomly generated dungeon, turn based combat and permadeath. Those are the basic 3, there are more but that gets into more granular detail than most people care about, and most will consider anything vaguely like that as a "roguelike" which is good enough for people with a casual interest in the genre.

In the roguelike community, since there are so many of them, games like Dark Cloud or Binding of Isaac are these days called roguelikelikes. Which is a bit of a mouthful as far as terms go, but is useful for separating traditional roguelikes from more spin-off games.

Diablo on PSX was suprisingly good.
If you have enough coffee to keep you awake during load times

>>2636005
Also, before I get jumped on for this. "Roguelikelike" isn't meant as a value statement, that the games are "dumbed down" or worse because they're not traditional roguelikes. Though there are some people who don't like them, generally it's just an attempt to keep confusion to a minimum.

If you're interested, they go into a lot of depth of these games on a podcast called Roguelike Radio. This episode talks about roguelike features in other games, and is a good starting point. http://www.gamesofgrey.com/roguelikeradio/roguelikeradio12.mp3

>>2636005
There aren't a lot of "real roguelikes" on consoles, and the ones that are seem to be mostly mystery dungeon-type games which are sorta their own thing, so we'll have to loosen up for the purposes of this thread

>>2635538
>But...what exactly qualifies as a "Roguelike" game?

Generally a game that punishes dying and has random content.

Dark Souls is a possible example. Binding of Isaac would be a more definite answer though.

>>2636021
Yeah, that's pretty much what I was trying to get at. If you stick with the strict definition, there's very little on consoles to talk about. So calling them roguelikes works fine. It's really just when you get into the hundreds and hundreds of homebrew PC ones all trying different things that discussions of where "roguelike" begins and ends gets more tricky.

I still think the original Shiren the Wanderer is one of the best roguelikes of all time.

It's not retro either, but I'll take this moment to plug one of my favorite roguelikes of all time. It's quite a minimalist game, closer to Rogue than Nethack and was made to run on the GBA. I grew up on Rogue, and the more minimal ones like this and Shiren appeal to me more.

Anyways, it's called Powder, it's free and can run on just about anything. If you like this kind of game I highly recommend it. Great balance, many ways to play and tough enough that it'll take you a long time to build enough skill and strategy to make it to the bottom and back again.

>>2636023

i dont think DaS is a good example, since it doesnt really have any random content and is definitely not permadeath.

>>2636023
There isn't a single random thing in Dark Souls. No to mention your progress is saved when you die.

>>2636023
Dark Souls really isn't a roguelike at all. Randomly generated areas and monsters is a key part of what makes something a roguelike. The games are based around never really knowing where you're going or what's around the next corner, no matter how many times you've played. Dark Souls is hard, but it's more of a standard action RPG.

Binding of Isaac is actually a blend of Zelda and a Roguelike. At least that's what it's intended to be.

I like Nightmare of Druaga and Elemental Gimmick Gear okay. Fatal Labryrinth is a real simple one.

>>2635538
pic related

>>2636036
I will second POWDER, although funnily enough it doesn't play that well on actual GBA hardware.

>>2636056
I'm not surprised, it's fairly meaty for a GBA game. I played the version on PSP and it works great.

>>2635538
>Random dungeons/levels
>Everything is random, not just what's on each floor. The properties of items/equipment you pick up, what stores stock, many times your character itself, etc.. There may be towns that aren't randomly generated.
>Death is permanent
>You are always Level 1 upon entering, with minimal equipment/items at your disposal.
>It's hard kind of in the same way arcade games are hard to make you pay out more, except you cannot buy credits in one.

>>2635270
This and Chocobo's Dungeon 2 would've honestly been better if they kept the one dungeon model from the original Mystery Dungeon and Shiren. Though there's a more proper dungeon in Torneko later on, it doesn't feel as difficult this way.

>>2636132
>This and Chocobo's Dungeon 2 would've honestly been better if they kept the one dungeon model from the original Mystery Dungeon and Shiren. Though there's a more proper dungeon in Torneko later on, it doesn't feel as difficult this way.

I agree. Azure Dreams was the best PS1 of the genre partially because of that.

>>2636132
That's my problem with most of Chun Soft's post Shiren games. A lot of them get into persistent leveling and less randomized dungeons and it kind of kills it. The thrill of death around every corner and even a small mistake ending in doom is really what makes Roguelikes fun. When they're too easy, or death is insignificant it takes away the tension and then you just have an RPG with random dungeons and that's not a ton of fun.

>>2636012
It was shit. Too low-res. Savegames took up a whole mem card.

Shiren 2, japanese-only but it's damn good.

>>2637403
PSX was still too weak to really port PC games released in the same era. It had trouble even with DOOM, a game released in 1993?

PS2's DVD levels of resolution would fit Diablo 1 just fine.

>>2637406
2 cawaii for me.

>>2637414
Diablo was really old when the PS2 came out. Not sure if it had enough RAM for D2, either. Though they didn't try.

Thing about Doom is that Playstation is 1994 hardware. So it pretty much is Doom era. And it plays alright. PCs didn't play Doom incredibly fast, either. But the PC version has more sprites, levels, etc.

>>2635270
damn, ps1 was so shit.

>>2637415

Are you suggesting Torneko isn't kawaii as fuck?

>>2636005
>Binding of Isaac are these days called roguelikelikes
I thought you called them rogue-lites, but I'm not deep in the community.

>>2635270
Cave Noire is one of thefew roguelikes on the handheld. Azure Dreams and Shiren are also available on GB/C.
I think it was Lufia 2 that had one dungeon that played like a roguelike, though ofcourse it doesn't involv perma death.

>>2636046
I though Nightmare of Druaga is more of a dungeon crawler.

>>2637841
>I thought you called them rogue-lites, but I'm not deep in the community.

Some people do, but they're usually your stereotypical /v/ type who likes the term because it's inherently derogatory. Sometimes Roguelite is used for games like Pokemon Mystery dungeon and the like which keep some roguelike features like random dungeon layouts, but remove things like permadeath to make it easier.

But overall, Roguelikelike is preferred since it encompasses what some people call Rougelites, but also includes things like Binding of Isaac, Dwarf Fortress and Diablo for which the term Roguelite isn't a good description. These days many consider Diablo to be a roguelike, but it was a very divisive game in the community.

These days though it's harder and harder to keep genres in a box, and ultimately it doesn't really matter.

>>2637426
Sure. If you please old men for jew shekels.

>>2638101
I fucking hate people using roguelike.

Is cod 2015 a quake like because its an fps with savepoints? Has almost nothing to do with the description.

>>2638157
I just don't see any point getting worked up over genre names, they're mostly pretty silly when you break it down. Roguelike sounds goofy, but it's a good description for games that are like Rogue.

The difference between CoD and Quake is that FPS was already an established genre by the time Quake was made. Though many people back then called all FPSs Doom clones, that term is even worse than Roguelike (for various reasons) and first person shooter caught on.

We call vs fighting games like Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat fighting games, and we call level based ones where you walk along and fight people Beat 'em Ups, but those terms could easily have been flipped.

In the case of Roguelikes it makes a lot of sense because Rogue itself was a great but fairly short lived game. It quickly spawned a number of games that expanded on the original to the point that it created a whole genre. Calling the games that were made to be like Rouge, Roguelikes seems only natural.

>>2638157
What else would you call it though? The genre is too specific for dungeon crawler.

>>2638101
>roguelite
>inherently derogatory

I don't know why roguelite fans get upset when others point out that games like BoI and Rogue Legacy aren't roguelikes. It's not like you're magically less hardcore just because you play FTL instead of Nethack. No one is making fun of you. It's just a matter of definitions and clarity. It's like going into a football thread on /sp/ and trying to discuss rugby. They're both great, but come on...

>>2638229
It's that Roguelite implies that the game is of either less difficulty or complexity than a Roguelike. So for instance, no one would call Dwarf Fortress a Roguelite, because that term doesn't seem to fit that game at all. But by the same token, it's not close enough to a traditional Roguelike to really be part of that genre either.

Roguelikelike is more of a mouthful, but is a good term that encompasses both games like DF, BoI and Rogue Legacy. That's really all it is.

Also to clarify, this has little to do with me personally I'm just relaying information from the Roguelike community in general. I'm mostly into older Roguelikes and more minimalist ones like Shiren, Powder and the like. I grew up on Rogue itself, so I've always come at the genre liking games closer to it than Nethack (not to say NH isn't great) I didn't care for Binding of Isaac at all, But I get why they exist and am glad they have the fans they do.

>>2638157

fps were called doom-like back then kid

>>2638251
Dwarf Fort's adventure mode is considered a roguelike.

People use roguelite instead of roguelikelike because it sounds better, not because of any derogatory connotation.

>>2638270
Yeah, but the game on the whole is a Roguelikelike. My original point is that Roguelite seems to be used a lot around /v and 4chan in general, and I assume Reddit. Often when I see it mentioned around here it's with a negative connotation, but to be fair that can be said about almost everything that gets posted on these board.

But point being, most of the people in the dedicated Roguelike communities I am part of use the term Roguelikelike. Sometimes specific games like Rogue Legacy are called Roguelites, but Binding of Isaac for instance generally isn't.

Roguelike is a useful label because it describes a specific set of features.

Is Toejam and Earl actually good? I tried it a couple times but it made no sense. Should I continue? Anything I should know going in?

>>2638307
It's best played with a second player. Most of the fun of the game is opening the various presents, there's not really much else to it. I imagine the slow walking speed would get tedious for a single player.

>>2636141
this game was so goddamn good

>>2638270
>>2638251
Dwarf Fortress is a sim/sandbox game. It' closer to minecraft.

>>2638348
Minecraft is also usually considered a roguelikelike, though now that it's becoming it's own genre as well that will probably start to change. In the end, what genre we say something falls into doesn't really matter at all. It's just a method of vaguely trying to organize them.

>>2635538
A "Roguelike" is an umbrella term for any game with specific gameplay elements that are like the old ass PC game Rogue..

How does it work? Well, let's say you take your guy into a dungeon and you find lots of cool stuff, but a troll or some shit kills you. Well then you get sent back to the town (or whatever) at the mouth of the cave/dungeon and all your shit you just found is gone.
Other than that, it's pretty much op to the devs to decide what else to include. And the fans ill ALWAYS argue about elements, but this is the key main mechanic in any roguelike.

Rpguelikes are always action based RPGs, and almost always have either standard leveling or some kind of stat boosting. They are almost allways top down view (Yes, I know there are a lot that aren't, but most really are) and it's barely a genre in the traditional sense, because lots and lots of games borrow very heavely from it, but don't adhere strictly to the rules.

Demons souls and Dark Souls for example are similar, in that you can die and lose all your souls, but you keep your items and such, And they're really not all that roguelike at all in any other regard. (No, I'm not saying these games are roguelikes, don't argue with me)

Roguelikes are really a lazy genre, because many of them have random dungeon layouts, and they're not all that great in terms of actual gameplay. Many early roguelikes' (and newer ones too) combat was basically just walking into enemies, and you and the enemy in question both getting damaged at the same time. Continuing until one of you die. Another element found in a lot of roguelikes is that enemies can only move when you do, but this isn't all that strict anymore.

I could go into even more detail, but then we're just talking about things that got dropped over time, or current trends, and not the genre in general.

Honestly, I don;t like them a whole lot, but there are a few that I do. Mostly DS games, so not /vr/ relevant.

>>2638385
>but a troll or some shit kills you. Well then you get sent back to the town (or whatever) at the mouth of the cave/dungeon and all your shit you just found is gone.

It's not just that you get "sent back" it's that it's game over. The next time you start, the dungeon layout is different, the items you find will be different (a blue potion that healed last game might be poison now).

>Rpguelikes are always action based RPGs
Roguelikes are almost never action based. Turn based combat is one of the key elements of a Roguelike and why games like Diablo are usually not considered part of the genre.

>Roguelikes are really a lazy genre, because many of them have random dungeon layouts, and they're not all that great in terms of actual gameplay. Many early roguelikes' (and newer ones too) combat was basically just walking into enemies, and you and the enemy in question both getting damaged at the same time. Continuing until one of you die. Another element found in a lot of roguelikes is that enemies can only move when you do, but this isn't all that strict anymore.

This part is all just so wrong I barely know where to start. There are relatively few where damage is dealt at the same time. And just blindly walking into an enemy till one of you dies is a perfect description of how to play the genre horribly.

Not all of us like the same kinds of games, and that's fine. But it's clear you both don't like and haven't seriously played Roguelikes so trying to describe them to other people is pretty pointless. You're way off base with almost everything you said.

>>2636141
I honestly feel like Chocobo's Dungeon 2 is just ultra cozy and wouldn't change it mechanics at all.

The only complaint you can make about it is that you might want more than it gives you.

Holy shit you spergs. It's just a name.

>>2638217
I think "mystery dungeon" is a good one. You're exploring dungeons, and they're randomly generated so they're always new and mysterious. That's pretty much the core of the genre.

>>2635959
Dark Cloud isn't a roguelike dumbass.

>>2638101
>ultimately it doesn't really matter.
It does matter because it makes discussion, comparisons, and recommendations harder.

Also, it's funny to say "it doesn't matter" when the only reason "roguelikelikes" is used by anyone is because of all the indie games spamming the term for marketing purposes.

>>2637424
:^)

>>2639876
I meant that ultimately the word we use doesn't matter much, so long as everyone knows what it means. Shmup is both not very specifically descriptive of the genre, but it sticks because people know what it means.

>Also, it's funny to say "it doesn't matter" when the only reason "roguelikelikes" is used by anyone is because of all the indie games spamming the term for marketing purposes.

As for this, I have no idea what your problem is. For one, remember that the overwhelming majority of Roguelikes have been indie games. In fact most of the ones that weren't are in this thread, and of those most are barely what most would really consider true Roguelikes.

For most of their history, Roguelikes have been a very niche genre, with most of the games being made by fans themselves. So that now that they're starting to get a little bit of mainstream recognition and Roguelike features are finally starting to be adopted into other games, I think it's great that they're labelled as Roguelikelikes or otherwise advertising that part of their design.

I don't like Binding of Isaac, Dungeons of Dredmor or Rouge Legacy, but I'm really glad they exist now.

>>2638101
>>2638402
Wait what? I thought Diablo was a roguelike.... why isn't?

>>2639864
and it's really a lot better for it

>>2643234
Allows save scumming, no permadeath (by default), not turn-based

But let's not fight

Why the fuck is 4chan so consistently misinformed when it comes to roguelikes? I've spent years chatting about videogames here and there's constantly threads full of people who honestly don't know what the fuck they're talking about. I know I'm coming off as a total prick, but roguelikes are a much more specific genre than lots of people in this thread realize.

Why has no one mentioned the berlin interpretation?
http://www.roguebasin.com/index.php?title=Berlin_Interpretation\

Plenty of fans of the genre take this as the best definition out there. The high value factors are absolutely essential to being a roguelike.

Dark Cloud, diablo, dark souls; these aren't even remotely roguelikes simply because they aren't turn based or grid based

>>2643265
I know, most of us call those games roguelikelike because we're fully aware they are not "real" roguelikes.

>>2643234
This pretty much >>2643251
Diablo is still a good game, nothing against it. It just doesn't follow most of the design that actually makes something a roguelike. Turn based exploration and combat is actually a quite fundamental aspect of the genre.

>>2643265
When talking about Roguelikes on consoles, you kind of have to loosen the definition a little since otherwise you can count them all on one hand.

>>2643276
So? Roguelikes really aren't suited for consoles because you really need a keyboard for all the different key commands. You could have some kind of menu UI but that would get really tedious.

All those games you have to loosen a definition for are just RPGs, there's nothing wrong with that, they just shouldn't be called something they aren't. For the same reasons why halo shouldn't be called a doomlike.

>>2643285
I would say Shiren works wonderfully well, and Powder is a very solid one as well. But in general you're right, for the bigger Roguelikes which are the popular ones, they're really not suited to consoles.

But for the purposes of this conversation, we're talking about pretty much any console games that take some sort of nods from Roguelikes. Azure Dreams isn't really a Roguelike, but it does use some of the features of the genre so we're talking about it.

That's all it is.

>>2643285
If we re title the thread "console RPGs with notable roguelike influences" will you take your meds and settle down

>>2643265
>berlin interpretation
I don't disagree with that, but jesus that's a pretentious title. It's not theoretical physics.

>>2643289
yes

>>2643265

This is where roguelike-lite or "roguelite" come in. Diablo is clearly inspired by roguelikes, but it doesn't have mechanics like permadeath, unless you play hardcore mode on D2. Hence roguelike-lite.

The Souls series most definitely is not related to roguelikes nor is it inspired by them in any shape, form or fashion. Totally different situation there.

The Fushigi no Dungeon games vary from true roguelike to roguelike-lite, or just remotely roguelike-lite. They are nonetheless classified as roguelikes because they belong to the same series. Nightmare of Druaga lacks randomized dungeons, but movement and actions are turn-based, equipment is made through forging and enemy and treasure placement *are* randomized. It's nonetheless subtitled as a Fushigi no Dungeon game despite not adhering to strict roguelike guidelines.

In summary, there's no need to be an autist. Sub-genres happen with any type of game. Roguelikes are no exception.

>>2643294
Well we're not going to. So have fun freaking out I guess?

>>2643265
Maybe don't be such an autistic faggot?

If you really wanted you'd be breaking shit down into an insane number of subgenres.

Calling Dark Cloud a roguelike isn't totally right, but its not totally wrong either. But what are you going to call it?

>3rd person hack and slash randomized dungeon layout game

Just don't be a faggot.

>Dark Souls
No one ever has called Dark Souls a roguelike.

>>2643319
I do see his point a little. Dark Cloud has almost none of the features that actually mark something as a roguelike other than randomized dungeon layouts.

So straight up calling it a rougelike is a little like calling Streets of Rage a fighting game. Sure you fight, but it's not a fighting game per se.

I actually really like an earlier recommendation, that we lump them all as Mystery Dungeon games. Since most of the Mystery Dungeons are also just skirting the definition of Roguelike themselves, it makes good sense to use that to refer to other console Rogue inspired games as well.

>>2635270

I've never heard of this Dragon Quest game before. What a pleasant surprise. Adding this to my backlog. Thanks very much for bringing this to my attention.

>>2643359
The Mystery Dungeon games started with a DQIV spinoff, check out the first one on SNES too. Torneko is the sequel to that, and the original honestly has some neat character moments as you bring home the bacon.

>>2643285
If mobile counts, there's Pixel Dungeon.

>>2643770
Is it actually good? I haven't tried it. For some reason assumed it was kind of a baby RL.

>>2643265
Blame the modern so retro xD indie game scene for screwing everything up.

>>2646002
God damn those filthy people for getting interested in a genre! Don't they know that Roguelikes should only be reserved for an elite few? The last thing Roguelikes need are people making independent games like them.

>>2646020
I'm talking about all the games that have almost nothing to do with roguelikes yet market themselves as them causing the definition of what they are to get screwed up.

>>2646023
I still find it hard to get upset about that. But if you want to then rage on, I guess.

>>2646032
Nah I'm not upset. I was just too lazy to fully explain what I was talking about which admittedly I should not have done since I ended up writing these posts doing that anyway.

It's not retro, but it's damned awesome.

>>2646037
It's all good! I'm really just happy any time anyone is getting interested in games with roguelike features, even if they are on the very edges of it. But I figure that's the best chance there is that they might make their way to some more classic representations of the genre and discover just how amazing they are.


People hear permadeath, turn based everything, random dungeons and item identifying and it sounds obtuse and terrible. But if they can ease into it and then realize how important and ultimately fun each of those things is then I think that would be wonderful.

>>2646039
What's it like? I've never even heard of it. Is it like the other Chocobo Mystery Dungeons? I see it's Square, not Chunsoft but is that just the publisher?

>>2646062
It's developed by h.a.n.d., but I'm pretty sure Chunsoft was involved somehow because it's definitely a Mystery Dungeon game. There are a couple dozen dungeons, a tripped-out story, a cool weapon/armor fusion system, different job classes with associated skills, and really good music, with a lot of remixes from other FF games. My only complaints are that the camera could be zoomed out a bit more, and you can't hold B to "dash" like in just about every other MD.

>>2637841
Nightmare of Druaga is grid-based, randomly generated, with item loss on death, it's part of the mystery dungeon series, how is it not a roguelike?

>>2643319
People called Dark Souls a roguelike earlier in the thread

>>2646104
Only one person said that it was a "possible example" and then it was explained to them that it clearly isn't. Try actually reading a thread next time before spazing out over it.

>>2638101
>roguelite
>inherently derogatory
First I've heard of this. I am going to continue using Roguelite to describe games regardless because fuck whatever definition those guys are using.

>>2643251
Exactly. Diablo is pretty much the reason the term "Roguelite" came about.

>>2640816
>Roguelike features
There's no such thing as a "roguelike feature" because a genre cannot own specific mechanics. Roguelikes were not the first games with permadeath or randomization.

I suppose it's true that because the term became trendy, actual roguelikes did get more exposure. It's just annoying when I used to be able to say "I play roguelikes" and have it be very clear what was meant and now if anyone is actually interested in talking about it I have to explain what I actually mean because people slap the term on anything with randomization.

I mean, when you have people arguing that "roguelite" is a great solution despite it being one character off and not sounding very different when pronounced, it's clear that someone cares way more about holding onto the label for its cool points than they do facilitating clear communication.

>>2647901
No, that didn't happen until all the indieshit started exploding on Steam.

>>2643319
Dark Cloud is a 3D action-adventure just like Zelda or a bunch of other games. You don't need all these extra specifications, because stuff being randomized doesn't make it a different genre. The game still plays much closer to a 3D Zelda game than it does any of those ASCII grid dungeon games, and the point of genres is to group games by how they play.

The next Zelda game could have randomized dungeons but I hope you would see that it would be retarded for everyone to go, "oh, we're playing a totally different genre now, I guess THIS game is a roguelike."

>>2647991
There's no such thing as 3D action-adventure games because a genre cannot own specific graphic styles.

>>2635538
A game that plays like Rogue.
the end :)

>>2647953
>There's no such thing as a "roguelike feature"
It's semantics really, I should have said "features commonly associated with roguelikes" Yes, no one of those features is exclusive to the genre, but that set of features bundled together is what makes the genre.

I get that it can be annoying to have to explain yourself more when describing what kinds of rougelikes you are into, but it's just the natural expansion of the genre. I used to be able to just say I was into fighters and then people started talking to me about Soul Calibur and Tekken which I don't like. Then I had to start specifying that I'm into 2D fighters.

Roguelikes are finally slowly gaining popularity though, and if that means having to adjust how we mention them I think that's fine. But it's also another reason I like Roguelikelike better, it's a better descriptor for games like BoI and the like.

>>2647991
I'm not sure if you haven't played a lot of either one of them, but Dark Cloud really isn't like Zelda at all.

Zelda are adventure games with dungeons designed around puzzles. Dark Cloud is an action RPG where the level layouts get randomized. It's far closer to a mix between a typical action-JRPG and Diablo than anything like Zelda.

>>2649101
And how would you define that? How does Rogue play?

>>2647991
>The next Zelda game could have randomized dungeons but I hope you would see that it would be retarded for everyone to go, "oh, we're playing a totally different genre now, I guess THIS game is a roguelike."

They would probably call it a Binding of Isaac game, since BoI is literally a mix of Zelda and a Roguelike.

>>2635525
really really? Maybe because you suck at video games.

>>2649146
>Dark Cloud really isn't like Zelda at all
Yes, it really is. What, because it has more numbers popping up on the screen? I didn't say it was a Zelda clone, I said it was in the same genre. Is that really controversial?

Dark Cloud, 3D Zelda games, Prince of Persia, God of War, Demon's Souls--they're all under the very broad 3D action-adventure umbrella. Dark Cloud and the Souls just have a lot more obvious stats. The point is not to say these games are soooo similar to each other, though, the point is that any one of them is much MORE similar to any other (and in fact, any 3D action-adventure you could name) than any of them are to Rogue. And that's why people get so muddled about genres, they don't think "hmm how does this actual play moment-to-moment," they go "hey, this one feature reminds me a little of Game X, I'm going to use that as the basis of comparison." It probably has something to do with nerds loving trivia and making references, I dunno.

>>2649597
Zelda isn't an action RPG though, it's an adventure game. It's different from Secret of Mana and games like that. You don't fight enemies for experience and the dungeons are specifically designed to be puzzles.

The 3D part of it is totally separate, Zelda in 3D is pretty much the same design wise as it is 2D. Zelda is all about it's level design, they're fundamentally puzzle games in a way action RPGs aren't. Dark Cloud has a lot more in common with Secret of Mana and Dark Souls than any Zelda game.

Zelda itself is about as far from Rogue as you can get as these types of games go. Zelda being all about carefully crafted dungeons and levels where the placement of everything down to the last piece of heat container has been meticulously designed. The game is about making it through those specific puzzles and areas with what's been put there. Roguelikes are the polar opposite of that with everything being randomized and making your way through the challenges of that being the game.

Just because Dark Cloud controls superficially like 3D Zelda games, doesn't mean they're very close design wise. Dark Cloud is much closer to Diablo, where you are going into randomly generated areas for experience and loot. It's also not a Roguelike, but as far as console RPGs go, it's closer to one of them than most.

Evolution: The World of Sacred Device on the Dreamcast and GameCube plays very similar to a roguelike.

>>2649268
its just not fun to me

>>2651771
it is actually shocking how much worse the gamecube version is though

>>2645948
It is really good, basically a tiled version of brogue for touch interfaces — maybe a little bit babied down, still nothing like ezmode consoleshit. There's a browser port too, but I'd recommend it on a tablet or phone if that's an option.

>>2651953
Hmmm I may check it out at some point. I'm quite fond of Brogue, but the only touch device I have is a 3DS. I'm such an old fogey my cel phone is literally a cellular telephone, and just a busted old laptop not fancy touch pads.

>>2649165
>implying anyone these days has actually played the original Rogue

>>2635270
Someone in Enix's marketing department thought that this was an appealing cover/box art.

>>2653549
There was a lot of that back then. Heck there's been a lot of that always.

>>2635538
Runescape used to make you lose all items when you died. This was a roguelike element

>>2655182
No. Roguelike would be losing everything and starting from scratch again, losing your items is just your gay-ass baby MMO's idea of punishment.

Why is turn based combat such an essential part of roguelikes?
It seems like more of a limitation than a design element to me.

You could have every other aspect of the roguelike genre except have it be in real time, and the only thing that would change is that you have to think faster in some situations.

I think permadeath and randomly generated content are much more fundamental parts of the genre.

>>2655182
You don't lose your items, you drop them.
If you go back to where they were in a certain time (can't remember, something like 2-5 minutes) and if someone else hasn't picked them up you can get your items back.

>>2655537
Necrodancer has you covered there, every "turn" being run along the BGMs rhythm. Roguelikes are supposed to be strategic, the player being able to weigh all available options at every turn -- calculate enemy distances and movement capabilities, etc. This doesn't really work so well in realtime.

>>2643289
>If we re title the thread "console RPGs with notable roguelike influences" will you take your meds and settle down

Sorry friendo, I sold all my Thorazine to buy H-games.

>>2655582
> weigh all available options at every turn -- calculate enemy distances and movement capabilities
Nothing but your thinking capacity stopping you from doing that in real time.
>This doesn't really work so well in realtime.
It does if you're not shit.

>>2655618
>Nothing but your thinking capacity stopping you from doing that in real time.
Sure, I'm not that quick.

>It does if you're not shit.
Would be neat to see you playing Necrodancer wihout music enabled and regular update ticks or something. I can't really imagine it going very well but feel free to prove me wrong.

>>2655537
Genres are about mechanics and making a game real-time is a much more fundamental change in how the game plays.

And no, it's not the "only" thing that would change. Can you now move and attack as fast as you can mash the buttons? Do all actions in the game now have a cooldown? Are you going to convert turns into "seconds" for monster movement? What's to stop you from dancing away from a monster because it gets its attack "tick?"

All of that stuff is way more fundamental to the feel of a game than whether the levels are truly random or not. Technically speaking random generation isn't even something a player can know about the game by playing it, it's a developer-facing term (for all the player knows, there are 10000 hand-made levels being served up in a preset order, for example).

>>2636036
oh man, so sad I can't play Powder on my 3DS (gba emulator sucks dick), I've spent so many hours in this game.

Once you go lich, you make everything your bitch

>>2655695
Powder was ported to the DS too, if you've got a DSTWO or something you can still play it

>>2655695
I play the PSP port, but I think he's worked to get it running on just about everything.

>>2655537
>>2655618
>Why is turn based combat such an essential part of roguelikes?

Rougelikes are fundamentally puzzle games in a way. A good one will regularly put you in situations where you really have to think about what action you're going to take next. A big part of the fun of Rougelikes is that moment when you open the door to a monster closet, or something similarly disastrous looks like it's about to happen. It's that moment when you stop and say "ohh fuck, what do I do now?" Then you stop, look through your inventory, consider your options and then hope that the decision you make doesn't get you killed.

The key in a good Rougelike is that the options you will have available to you when those situations come up will too much to really consider properly on the fly. When a game is action based, everything has to be designed so that you can react to it quickly. As a result they can't be as complicated as a turn based one.

>>2636012
If you emulate on psp no load times

Halo is a roguelike cause once you finish playing you die when you realize nothing else comes close

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