/vr/ - Retro Games

>>2529448
git gud

>>2529448
get some graph paper, and draw a map as you play

>>2529448
No, Wizardry is just like that. You should try a more forgiving game, like Eye of the Beholder, Shin Megami Tensei, etc... Wizardry is iconic but it might be one of the worst introductions to the genre, especially for someone used to modern games that aren't all about kicking you in the sack.

Yeah, I tried Wizardry and gave up after a few hours of absolutely no fun. I'll pass on it.
Try Dungeon Master OP, still very beloved game and incredibly ahead of its time in interface and gameplay.

If you really want to start with Wizardry I'd recommend 5 but normally you should start with something easy like Might and Magic 3 or 4+5.

>>2529448
Wizardry is punishing as fuck. If that's not for you then you're not going to like this style of RPGs. You're not doing anything wrong, they're just THAT hard.

I use excel to keep track of everything and Conditional Formating to automatically give my maps colors and borders (walls) as I write.

>>2529506
It's pretty incredible how they barely changed the mechanics and visuals until 6, they really catered to the hardcore, oldschool players and didn't give a fuck. I can't stand playing them but I can respect it, I love Dragon Quest and it's similar to how almost all entries before 8 seem low budget despite being a household name.

You need a simpler game to start with. Try something like this instead.

>>2529527
For the original Apple II versions there was a major interface change for 3 and 4 and 5 generally did plenty of new stuff.
The changes for 6 weren't necessarily for the better and graphically it was outdated when it came out.

For NES, Bard's Tale, Pool of Radiance and Dungeon Magic are all great RPGs. Bard's Tale is watered down compared to the computer version, though, and there's a bit of censorship.

>>2529574
They're apparently working on a remake of BT1-3 as part of BT4.

>>2529527
Wizardry is for borderline autists who like to obsess over character stats and like their WRPGs as hard as possible. I'm not in any way, shape, or form suggesting this is a bad thing.

They're also games that require you to put a ton of effort into to get anything out of them. And that's probably the #1 reason why they don't appeal to a lot of people and will never be anything other than niche.

If you have to write things down then fuck it I'm out. I'm not doing paperwork to play a videogame.

>>2529797
Why would you obsess about stats in Wizardry? You'll end up losing them on level ups.

>>2529448
Grind near the exit. Go back to town and have your cleric sleep in the stables to recover your cleric's mp. Use the cleric to heal your characters to full health. Once you become strong enough to go in further, search for Murphy's Ghost and keep fighting him to level up your characters. He keeps respawning at the same spot and is the best and safest monster for grinding.

Because of the way the game is designed, you have to make multiple parties and level all them up in order to beat the game. It's impossible to go through the game without dying.

There's a series for the disk system and famicom called "Deep Dungeon" that falls into this category. All the games have English translation patches if you'd like to check them out (games one and two are on the disk system, while three and four are on the famicom)

There was a game similar to this that I used to play all the time on windows 3.1 it had randomly generated levels (up down) and shit tons of mobs, some were these fuzzy fuckers and big orbs and dragon flies and shit i wish i could remember the name of that game

>>2529448
They're called dungeon RPGs. Your experience with Wizardry I is the same everyone starting out. Here are some main tips I can give you:

>Every member of your party must be doing something useful each turn. Defending means YOU have fucked up.
>Always have a designated healer in the back row. Always.
>All equipment should be acquired through loot grinding; never give your hard-earned dosh to that swindling asshole running the shop. Thieves are best at disarming traps.
>Read The Fucking Manual(or don't think asking for help is cheating)

If you want an Easy Mode, try Shining in the Darkness. Other anons in this thread have also provided good recommendations.

>>2530461
moraff's world bro

>>2530463
>Every member of your party must be doing something useful each turn. Defending means YOU have fucked up.
I can't support such a blanket statement. Spellcasters in the back can't always cast spells. Putting a weakass thief into the back where he's safe but useless is also an option.
Defense itself can also be a preferable option in some cases.

Are you kidding? Try playing Waxworks and not getting frustrated at the countless times you have to start a certain level from the beginning because you don't know where you're goung. Especially in the "Jack The Ripper" level which is plagued by dead ends and essential areas/objects being blocked off by bobbies or angry mobs. Get caught by either of these and you're dead immediately. No chance to fight back or escape. It's a real bitch considering this is the only waxwork in the game where you cannot engage in combat, except for your final battle with Jack The Ripper. Making a graph as you play is practically required if you want to make it anywhere in this adventure as you have to do a ton of backtracking.

Play this

>>2530498
Agreed, OP Should start off with this game as it offers the basics of a dungeon crawler without the unnecessary high-difficulty.

>>2530419
You don't have to sleep. Spell charges are refilled as soon as you enter town. You can get away with using the inn for nothing but level ups.

>>2530498
maan what a great fucking game

Digital Devil Story got translated this year, right?

Go play that shit

>real time tile-based first person dungeon crawlers

>>2530487
That is a pretty fun game, maybe more of an adventure game though.

>Making a graph as you play is practically required
I have learned not to hate this

>>2530910
>>real time tile-based first person dungeon crawlers
I thought it was a dumb idea until I sat down and really tried at Dungeon Master. Still never got all that far into it, but it's a workable design.

>>2530526
>You don't have to sleep. Spell charges are refilled as soon as you enter town.
In Wizardry I? Which version did you play? Not true in the SNES version at least, I've fucked myself more than once because I forgot to hit the inn for a spell recharge.

I used to play one of those for the snes but can't remember the names, I remember it had a very blue palette, at least the first level was blue walls, and you could run into some minotaur kind of monsters.

any one know it?

Cosmic Soldier 2: Psychic War was apparently localized back in the mid 1980s. It's notable for being one of the first JP PC rpgs, and even though it's a bit primitive by modern standards, it's still impressive for 1985.

What versions of Wizardry do you guys recommend? The DOS one seems buggy and even more difficult than the originals from what I've seen. SNES looks fine but I don't think you can transfer characters and the games are changed to scale for level 1 etc.
I'm considering just going with Apple II by this point

>>2532484
>I don't think you can transfer characters
Pretty sure you can, although I haven't tried. I actually haven't heard anything bad about the SNES versions at all, everyone seems to like them.

>>2529797
what? The wizardry games were huge in their hey day. They were the best selling RPG's of their time.

>>2532484
You can transfer characters, and the SNES/NES versions are best. The Wizardry games are extremely difficult, you should play the console iterations as they are not only the easiest, but the most accessible. Work your way up to the DOS versions so you can appreciate them more.

>>2532484
PSX IMO.

>>2532663
What, Dark Savant? Or one of the Japanese ones? Because honestly, the PC versions are better, if anything for having a keyboard.

>>2532679
PSX versions of the Wizardry games have smooth scrolling when you move through the dungeons and better graphics.

>>2529448
I think Eye of the Beholder was interesting, but annoying in that after I beat the first level, it gets to a gate with a key hole and the level has a section with runic writing on the walls and no way to get through it. I gave up after 30 minutes of searching.

>>2532679
Oh sorry, guess I should be more specific but the PSX port of 1-3 (Llylgamyn Saga) over the SNES ones IMO.

For the Dark Savant trilogy, I definitely mostly recommend the PC versions.

Though I might recommend 6 SNES for the quality of life additions like Automap.

Unfortunately a lot of them aren't translated so I can't really give a good basis since I haven't played stuff like the PSX Dark Savant games

>>2532702

EotB way easier than the Wizardry and Dungeon Master games. Most of the difficulty comes from the puzzles, which are one of the best parts of the game.

The runic writing in the first area can be read if you have a gnome character in your party. It's a hint on how to operate a mechanism, avoid a trap, etc. In second area, you need a dwarf the writings. In the third and forth area, you need an elf or drow. In the final area, you need a dwarf again.

>>2532525
Back when PC gaming was ultra niche. They didn't sell outside of a super small cult fanbase on the consoles despite those ports being superb.

>>2532539
You can't transfer characters to/from 5 and to transfer characters in the Famicom versions you need a data recorder.

>>2529448
Are there any particularly big no-no's when developing these types of games?

>>2533809
making them first person and lacking parallax scrolling.

>>2529448
>and I just get absolutely overwhelmed early game
Wizardry is grindy, very grindy. Level up more and don't be merciful if your characters turn out to be shit, jettison them the fuck out. Also don't forget, HP>all so max out constitution always.

>>2532760
They actually sold millions of copies m8.

>>2533809
>Are there any particularly big no-no's when developing these types of games?
IMO, not being able to control the game entirely by keyboard alone.

>>2530910
learn u some squaredancing m8

way more fun than turn-based menu shit will ever be

>>2535230
It kind of kills the immersion. You are supposed to be playing as a party of 4-6 people which cannot move as coordinated as a single person.

>>2534098
What do you mean by that?
>>2534267
Understandable.

>>2535363
Well, in Dungeon Master at least, there's a lore explanation - you're not playing as the party, you're playing as some incorporeal dude that has direct control over the party and their actions. I believe that's also true of the sequel, but I don't know if other real-time games like EotB bothered to explain that.

Try The Dark Spire for Nintendo DS. It's a more modern take on the genre and gives you automapping.

>>2535363
>>2535451
Also, on the subject of immersion, I feel that the very concept of turn-based gameplay is far more damaging than the idea that four people might be able to coordinate their movements. It might be appropriate for some honorable knight or mastermind guy to wait and see what your plan of action is, but I don't really see it working for anything else, least of all the usual wild animals, monsters, and mindless undead that typically populate these games.

I always wanted to do a 1st person dungeon rpg that looped around as much as say Dark Souls instead of using a floor system, but it might be hard to follow in 1st person.

>>2532441
>Which version did you play?
Dos and Apple II. In those versions at least just exiting the dungeon is a full recharge.

>>2529448
nigga, get yo ass on Eye of the Beholder right now. Leave this Wizardry stuff for the mega nerds that like to suffer.

>>2535609
There's nothing else like the latter Might and Magic games, is there?

>>2529448
Are you mapping them?

>>2532484
1-3 - Try PSX port
4 - only original Apple II version. The game is almost unbeatable, but I think that if you'd ever want to play it, you'd go for the most hardcore experience anyway.
5 - PSX again
6, 7 - DOS versions(also on gog), avoid 7 gold
8 obviously PC.

>>2535961
Wizardry 8

>>2535517
>gives you automapping
A real missed opportunity. Etrian Odyssey got that one right. Half the fun of dungeon crawling is mapping out your journey.

>>2535985
what's the difference between the Apple II and the other computer versions of 4? Or the original mode of the PS1 version for that matter.

I liked the Towns version of 5. It seems close to the original with better graphics and sound.

>>2536393
>Etrian Odyssey got that one right. Half the fun of dungeon crawling is mapping out your journey.

EO got it entirely wrong. It's feels more like a chore than a fun mechanic. Mapping in that game is already made piss easy by giving you the exact location of your party at all times and highlighting all the places where you've been to. You just draw the lines and fill in the small details. Once the level is mapped out, there's no point in even looking at the first person view. You can just navigate with the map.

>>2529490
I always liked might and magic 2 the best (for snes). Something about that game feeling so broken in so many ways made it fun. Every tile has the potential for death/1000+ enemies/buffs that make u invicible/etc.

>>2530718
>digital devil story translated
>still no If...

Why live.

>>2536775
MM2 for SNES didn't have the 250 enemies of the other versions as far as I've seen. It's really not something I'd miss since it's always 240 of the same enemy so you either bash them down or flee the battle with little tactics involved.
The broken buff is mainly enchant item as you can make everything +63 and stack them to get close to 255 wherever it matters.
I found MM1 more enjoyable but it's not something for beginners.

I've always wanted to try a game like this. Can anyone recommend a good starter title?

>>2536843
Read the thread. But I'll tell you to play Arcana in honor of Iwata.

What's your general strategy for these games? Favorite classes?

>>2536996
From my experience, support-based classes like Servants from Wizardry and Farmers from Etrian Odyssey, though poor in combat, tend to save the party's ass more often than not.

>>2536996
Better save than sorry. Make a quick retreat rather than risk getting wiped out. Keep an eye for the escape route wherever you are, if you get cut off the highest priority is to get back on track so instead of making overly stretched routes I regularly track back to explore parts adjacent to familiar territory.

For classes a good mix is normally key. I tend to get multiple healers for redundancy and speed, otherwise it depends on the specific game as wizards can range from useless to overpowering.

>>2536732
>original mode of the PS1 version
IIRC it gives you access to map everywhere and makes Trebor's ghost move on a turn-based basis instead of realtime.

>>2537174
Automap is optional but the ghost is real time, i.e. it comes even when you stand still.

>>2537190
Not in the PSX version AFAIK

>>2537191
Try it yourself if you don't believe me, even the Arrange mode still has it.
The PCE version works differently from what I can tell.

>>2535517
I wonder how many people played this in 8-bit mode. It looks almost like the old school Wizardry games that way.

>>2536752
I can accept that. There's still room for improvement. Still, I prefer for a game to give me some digital paper, instead of entirely automapping everything, especially on touch-supporting devices

>>2537287
It's how I played it, because it moves faster.

I've tried to play Dark Spire twice, years apart, and got stuck both times (at different points). Breddy gud game but it's more pointlessly aggravating than Wizardry in a lot of ways.

>>2536752
EO's approach is a little more interesting than a pure automap like SMT, where there's *never* any point in looking at the main screen. But maybe they could've gotten more mileage out of it.

Dark Spire tried to make things "interesting" by making you switch to a separate screen to show the map, and not indicating your current location, and by generally just being a fairly shitty map that doesn't mark much stuff.

It might sound crazy to filthy casuals, but there really is no substitute for graph paper. Not that I'd want every crawler to be like that, but still.

>>2537880
>It might sound crazy to filthy casuals, but there really is no substitute for graph paper. Not that I'd want every crawler to be like that, but still.
The sad thing is that touch and tablet games to this day failed to provide a good digital graph paper. Something that just gives you mild assistance to keep your lines straight, but otherwise lets you draw, maybe helps you to maintain multiple sheets on your device, expand the drawing area if you need it, create and stamp symbols of your own choice, etc. It frustrates me to no end that to play Legend of Grimrock on a modern tablet in hardcore mode, I effectively need to sit down on a table, to scribble on dead trees, while I have a tablet, that I usually use for notetaking and other stuff, right in front of me.
I am weird in that I hate wasting paper for notes. That's not just games, but in general. I always have a text file or something similar at hand, that's where my notes go. Support for this kind of note-taking in games would be wonderful. No, alt-tab is not support.

>>2536752
>and highlighting all the places where you've been to
that's optional

Mentioning this (although it's not retro) it's my favorite game in the genre, heavily inspired by Dungeon Master and Eye of the Beholder.

>>2538929
Do give Stonekeep a try then. The two have quite a bit in common.

>>2538935
>The two have quite a bit in common
Actually not that much

For all of you guys clamoring for digital mapping, what do you think of this?
http://www.oldgames.sk/dungeon-mapper/

Mysterium for the GB is interesting. There are around 160 different items you can craft.

>>2529448
Give Kyuuyaku Megami Tensei a try, its a Super Famicom remake of the first two Megami Tensei titles before Shin Megami Tensei was developed. There is a map and its cool seeing the groundwork of the series major elements

Speaking of first-person dungeon crawlers, can you transfer your characters from Wizardry I to II and III?
Do they keep their stats and equipment?

>>2539683
You keep your stats when transferred to 1 or 2 but for 3 or 5 you get a new character with the same class.

>>2534098
Could I get some clarification? Do you mean smooth movement?

My uncle has Akalabeth. I played it and thought it was pretty good, just a bit aged is all.

These games are so archaic. They even felt dated in the 90's. It's just the same brick tiles over and over again, some numbers and some sprites. There's so little going on.

>no mention of Swords & Serpents in a maze thread

I'm occasionally reminded that I've never played Sword of Vermilion. How is it?

>>2543440
I remember getting engrossed in it as a kid, though I tried playing it again a couple years ago and couldn't find anything redeeming about it. The truth probably lies somewhere in between young me and old me.

hot

>>2535517
remind me Paper Sorcerer.

>>2543514
>B-Bribe

>>2538929
I want a Legend of Grimrock set in a SF universe. I could die happy after that.

>>2543519
Doom4

>>2543581
Make it at least DoomRPG. That's older, turn based and grid based.

Also, actually entertaining and well done.

>>2543586
>DoomRPG

Eh, I remember playing this on my old phone, way back in high school.

>>2543586
the wolfenstein rpg was really cool too

>>2543586
>>2543612
any way to play them on a PC?

>>2543614
Emulator, I suppose. Sadly. The game surely deserves a bit more exposure.

>>2543616
It was never remade as a wad?

>>2543617
turn based RPG logic with levelling and a grid? How do you translate that into a wad?

>>2543614
Java emulator? I think the best versions were the iphone one was the best, unfortunately. Wish they had gotten a DS release like Orcs & Elves did, which was an id game in the same engine

So I started Llylgamyn Saga (PS), and changed the options according to pic related, everything is in english, except the item/magic descriptions. Is this normal?

>>2543635
Yes, they didn't bother to include the English descriptions and nobody made a patch like for the SFC or Windows versions.

>>2535517
My only gripe about that game is the slow combat where you have press a button every time an enemy or character does an action and the message speed is not adjustable. In the Wizardry games, combat can be made as slow or as fast as you want.

>>2543651
There were no item/magic descriptions in the original Wizardry.

>>2543709
Magic was described in the manual.

>>2543713
But never ingame, that's the point.

>>2543519
Not quite LoG but there's this
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=116458018
And more akin to Grimcock gameplay, but older is pic related

>>2543718
how anybody could think, in the age of (indirect) mouse controls and people being familiar with keyboards, that this interface is useful, is beyond me

>>2542338
It's better if the dungeons are just wireframe and the combat is text only. Graphics and animation are just poor distractions.

>>2543723
The game is from 1990. Putting aside the fact that control standards still weren't set in stone, the main window was usually small in order to reduce minimal specs, and in Captive most of those side windows had their use too. You can get remote cameras that scout ahead of you and similar stuff.

>>2543586
This is a fantastic game and I find it hard to believe that no one ported it to PC yet.

>>2543728
>The game is from 1990
Exactly. Mice were novelties and people knew their keyboard.

>the fact that control standards still weren't set in stone
It's closely mimicking Dungeon Master and a few other purely mouse driven crawlers. It was a bad idea back then already.

>the main window was usually small in order to reduce minimal specs
It's typical for grid based first person crawlers that they don't animate much between steps. It's perfectly fine to show a still of the current situation at, say, 5fps or less, because it's a still. You'd have a point if there was any kind of heavy motion going on, or framerate mattered.

>most of those side windows had their use too
I'm not talking about the grey areas, they look like placeholders for functions not available right now. The entire movement and even save management stuff though, no need for any of that.

>>2543740
>Exactly. Mice were novelties and people knew their keyboard.
On which platform? Mac and Amiga had mice starting with their very first models in mid 80's. I think Atari ST did too. By 1990, mice were de-facto pieces of computer gear even on PC. Look at Sierra and other adventure games from that time, they all started moving to mouse interface instead of the old way (arrow keys to move your dude, and type in some text to perform actions).

>It's closely mimicking Dungeon Master and a few other purely mouse driven crawlers. It was a bad idea back then already.
You're only saying that with the benefit of hind-sight. In those days the GUI, WIMP, or whatever you want to call it, was viewed as the future of computing. You could go back in time and argue with them to change that idea, but they'd just laugh at you like you're some kind of caveman.
At least some later dungeon crawlers let you move your party with keyboard (Black Crypt for example) but even there you often needed the mouse for various other functions. I think Might & Magic III is the only such game I played that supported 100% keyboard play, but probably only because the first two games in that series had good keyboard support. If they had just made a CRPG out of the blue (without that prior experience and history), maybe it would have turned out differently and more like the other mice-heavy crawlers.
Incidentally, Captive does in fact let you use the numeric keyboard to move around, and has other keys assigned for manipulating the screens, etc.

>>2543740
>>It's typical for grid based first person crawlers that they don't animate much between steps. It's perfectly fine to show a still of the current situation at, say, 5fps or less, because it's a still. You'd have a point if there was any kind of heavy motion going on, or framerate mattered.
Captive 2 actually fixed this, allowing you to expand main view to the whole width of the screen.

Is Wizardry too hard for someone who only played Etrian Odyssey, Shining in the Darkness and Phantasy Star?
Llylgamyn Saga has been sitting in my PSP since 2009 and I'm not even sure if that's the best version of the trilogy.

>>2543876
>Etrian Odyssey, Shining in the Darkness and Phantasy Star
4 aside, no. They're not easy, but their difficulty is a bit overstated.

>>2543876
Character resurrections in Wizardry are costly and not guaranteed to work. If your whole party dies, you'll have to form another party to pick up the dead bodies and bring them back to town for resurrection. The rogue-like mechanic of automatically saving your game every step you make means you can't savescum when something bad happens.

Elminage Gothic was already such bullshit.

>>2543876
How far did you make it in EO?

Half of the difficulty in Wizardry is setting up your party at the start.

>>2544293
>>Half of the difficulty in Wizardry is setting up your party at the start.
How so? Sticking three warriors in the front and three spellcasters/utility guys in the back is a pretty basic concept. Character generation is predominantly RNG based.

>>2544298
Reserving the back row purely for utility hurts your DPS. Then you need to consider races and class changing. All of the above factors into how hard the game will be.

>>2543714
The manual was a part of the game in days of yore.

>>2544385
>Reserving the back row purely for utility hurts your DPS
How? Will you really miss the 2 damage per turn your thief can deliver on a lucky day?
>races
Races are rather foolproof about which classes they're useful with, except for dwarves which are almost always the best in the remakes (the originals are a bit more sketchy, since you can't go over 18 on any stat). Though obviously making a dwarven thief is a moot point.
>class changing
Quite useless in Wiz 1-5, unless you meticulously plan it in advance.

>>2544715
Essential part of the game, yes. This is especially apparent with SSI "gold box" series, Star Saga, and Temple of Apshai (and related games like StarQuest).

Some early wargames even came with a physical board and counters, and the computer just acted as opponent AI (example: Dnieper River Line).

Anyone here played Might & Magic NES version? The original is too archaic to enjoy for me but this looks pretty cool, great music and helpful additions like the map.

Why are these guys so cute?

>>2529448
If your playing one of the ones where you can change your party, then it's best to build a party mostly of disposable pawns. Leave the best built character in the back and let the fighters in the front get xp and gold for the character you want to keep in the final party.

Also of note. Modern RPGs and jRPGs have a habit of making buffs and debuffs not very effective, but in older games like these they are much better. The Wizardry series for example was extremely punishing without buffing and debuffing.

Most importantly, take your time. These old games take over 100 hours to beat because you can't rush them. Drawing your own maps is part of the fun and was expected by the developers back then.

>>2529574
Man, and to think there was a time when computer games used to get ported to consoles, and not the other way around. It's always interesting to see how the Japanese handle the NES conversions of Western games.

>>2546358
I played a bit. In my eyes they took too many weird decisions and restrictions. Like how your party is fixed and you don't even start with every class.
The PCE port seems better if you want better graphics and sound than the Mac or other computer versions.

>>2543876
The concept of "entry level" games is a little silly anyhow. if you're reading this message, you're probably hardcore enough for Wizardry.

>>2547643
Disagreed. If you're unfamiliar with certain playstyles, and if the game has strong expectations for the player, a game can be excessively frustrating. Some genres require introduction games to get the genre approach and familiarize yourself with concepts, before you can dive into games that expect you to know these things, and act accordingly.

>>2543514
what game?

Do you savescum when playing the old Wizardry games? The prospect of losing hours of progress because of a bad random encounter is terrifying.

I once failed three resurrections in a row in Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord, right before the final floor, too.
Never again.

>>2548078
Always ragequit when your party is facing doom. The game will let you continue from before the fight.

>>2548090
sounds like a conceptual bug and indirect savescumming. The correct design would be to pre-save an encounter as a wipe/loss until the player proves otherwise, which means ragequitting is handled like a wipe.

>>2530498
SNES?!

>not exploring dungeons IRL

>>2548903
that's scary

i can feel being stuck in just looking at the gif

I doubt many people really played Wiz with permadeath back in the day. Making backup disks of your characters was easy enough, and nobody cared about authentic difficulty

>>2547691
Might and Magic III

>>2548952
>authentic difficulty

Permadeath is the most extreme form of artificial difficulty

>>2548970
>artificial
How so?

>>2529457
You don't need to do this. The trick to any maze is incredibly simple. Pick either the left or right wall and keep following one all the way through the maze.

>>2548982
Because replaying content that you already cleared over and over every time RNG shits on you isn't difficult, it's tedious.

>>2548986
This is an algorithm used by robots to solve simple mazes. But, it won't work for areas with special mechanics such as teleportation squares, one way doors, pits that lead you to another level, and anything else that makes it hard for you to backtrack.

>>2548991
missing the point of permadeath then. The higher risk is supposed to make you be more cautious and prepared, instead of running into any random situation, hoping on lucky dice rolls.

>>2548986
Have fun clearing level 3 that way.

>>2548808
They tell you to do it in the manual.

>>2548991
>>2549003
You don't even need any trickery to unhinge this algorithm.
Pic shows a maze without dead-ends. A DFS (the described algorithm) will end up going in circles.

>>2549005
casuals

>>2549006
I think it's pretty obvious that you're going to run in circles in level 3 even without the pits and rotators.

>>2548960
That's 2, not 3

>>2548078
At least in Wiz 1 there are only about 2 hard fights in the game though. One is Werdna, and the other will mop the floor with you if you don't expect it, but can be prepared for in advance.

>>2549761
You mean the control center? That's definitely a case where lack of experience takes its toll. You've got to carefully target your debuffs and attacks for the first time.
You get warnings before Werdna though in can be too late to turn back when you realize you aren't ready.

>Wizardry I
>these spell names

Man, this is harder to remember than Phantasy Star.

>>2548078
I have been playing Wizardry I without scumming. The only thing that truly feels like bullshit are the pits. You basically have to risk a TPK every time you want to determine what a floor feature is.

>>2552567
The main problem with pits in my eyes is that you fall into them after coming out of a camp so you can't tend your wounds without moving away.

Can you guys help me here? The PC version of Llylgamyn Saga (originally on the PS/Saturn) got a translation years ago:

http://www.romhacking.net/translations/2312/

...but I can't find the game anywhere online, be it the original JP version or pre-patched. Plenty of links, but all dead.

Anybody happen to know good first person dungeon crawlers that don't take place in medieval fantasy settings?

>>2554113
Wizardry 7, Newcomer, Captive

>>2554117
Wizardry still looks kind of medieval at a glance, but I'm probably just missing something. Newcomer looks interesting, Captive I remember from that atrocious interface. All in all a depressingly short list, but thanks for providing it.

>>2554124
Wizardry 7 m8. Wiz 8 even moreso

>>2554126
Yes, I was looking at Wizardry 7. Saw a bunch of dudes in armor, old buildings, missed that scooter thingy. Like I said, was just glancing at it.

>>2554113
Megami Tensei games

Stranger of Sword City localization when?

/not-vr/

Is there any Wizardry 7/8 custom portrait repository available online?

There's tons for Baldur's Gate, but barely anything for Wizardry.
I'm not really a fan of the ones I found (pic related).

>>2554181
guy called Zombra has a pack of custom made Wiz8 portraits out there including a guid how to create some yourself.

that being said, I think the Wiz//8 portraits are just fine. Actually the Wiz8 ones are pretty awesome, so I dont know why anyone would need that

>>2554113
Realms of the Haunting, Waxwork, and the Elvira games all have a horror setting

plus this:
>>2554145

>>2554181
>tfw those portraits are basically canon

>>2554264
Also Legacy: Realms of Terror

Is there a program I could download that would work as an alternative to graph paper?

>>2554910
Windows Journal, comes with Windows 7 or higher, I think, though you might have to install tablet features (windows features). Just set it to checkered (large) background and draw away.

>>2554910
This http://www.oldgames.sk/dungeon-mapper
There's also an offline, downloadable version

>>2554932
>>2554938
I guess it depends how much "support" you want from your app.
The journal's little more than digital paper, with a vector pen, an eraser and not even snapping to grid lines. However that also means it's free form, for made up symbols, notes and stuff, and leads to very "old school" maps.
Dungeon Mapper meanwhile comes with a ready-made grid and predefined symbols. A bit more restricting, but also less "work" to do a map

>>2554215
>that being said, I think the Wiz//8 portraits are just fine. Actually the Wiz8 ones are pretty awesome, so I dont know why anyone would need that

Nothing wrong with wanting to spice thing a little.
That being said, anon should probably check out Elminage if he's into deep customization.

>>2554336
That's what I had in mind when I said Realms of the Haunting.. RotH is actually a totally different kind of game.

>>2555054
How long is Elminage? Regular long or insanely modern rpg long? The class system looks interesting.

>>2556754
>How long is Elminage?
"enjoyable" but too obtuse for its own good.
>RNG combat out the ass
>annoying inventory system and menu
>it's just exploring a big maze and fight monster, barely any trap, no puzzle, no variety
>Secret passage you need to discover, for that you need a special skill that work with a RNG system. So you can miss a secret passage even if you on character in your party have the skill, without knowing it.

Didn't want to start a thread for this, so does anyone know how to change the text in Wizardry Gaiden IV for SNES to English? Supposedly you can do that in the options menu, but nothing I've tried works.

>>2557050
>Secret passage you need to discover, for that you need a special skill that work with a RNG system. So you can miss a secret passage even if you on character in your party have the skill, without knowing it.

That's stupid.

>>2558303
That's just standard D&D from the 70's and 80's. The various editions had slightly different rules, but for the most part is just came down to the roll of a die. Like in Basic D&D for example, a normal human had a 1 in 6 chance to find a secret door if he searched for it. An elf had twice the chances, so 1-2 on 1d6. Dwarves had mining-related skills, such as deteching traps, sloping floors, and shiftying walls on result of 1 or 2 on 1d6. Yes, these skills were hardcoded to the race (which was also your class in Basic D&D), but the principle remains the same even if a CRPG based on D&D decided to use an actual skill system. It always came down to a die roll in the end. You could end up missing stuff, and then well.. tough noogies!

>>2556754
30-50 hours, can be quite a bit longer for post-game.

>>2557050
You do know the foundation for RPGs was a game where literally everything was determined with dice rolls, don't you?

>>2558324
And just to make it clear... It was the DM who was supposed to make these "find secret door" or "detect trap" and other such rolls in secret, behind his DM screen. A player who decided to search for a secret passage would have never known the result of that die roll, only that he found nothing (or found something if there was something to be found and he was lucky enough).

Same deal with thieves trying to detect and remove traps. Detecting a trap and getting a positive result is pretty straightforward. But then what happens if you fail to remove (disactivate) it? It's quite possible you don't actually realize you didn't do it correctly. A high enough roll (low as good in this case) would imply the thief fumbled badly and *thinks* he disabled the trap, and to him the result of 1 or 6 on 1d6 are effectively identical... until the trap is set off (or not).

So I'm working a game like these but I need an answer;
Is it generally looked down upon to make enemies move around on their own, ala lands of lore? I currently have it so they only move when the player moves, which does cut down on animations.

Am I the only one here who ever played this? That game is so fucking hard.

Am I the only one here who ever played this? That game is so fucking hard.

>>2560496
No.

Have static enemies only with a deliberate purpose behind them -- don't neglect level design!

>>2560496
There are plenty of first-person RPGs that have moving enemies. The EO series, for example, has enemies that move in the way you're describing.

>>2560496
>lands of lore
...is a realtime game right?

Basically, there are two types of these games

1) Real time: Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder, Legend of Grimrock

2) Turn based: Wizardry, Might & Magic, Shin Megami Tensei

Both are cool

Alright. I was asking as I already have both systems ready, but I had to choose one for actual use. I might just stick with turn-based movement

>>2560682
keep in mind that turn based vs. realtime has a huge impact on the perception of the game, it's not just a simple switch. Turn based is far more pensive and strategic, and realtime can introduce a certain rush and panic, if the designer desired. The whole damage model can be affected by this "simple" decision.
Most dungeon crawlers I played go for a turn based mechanism, because then it means player's reactions and quick wits are secondary and the game can put more weight into each decision of the player. This may sound odd, but for an RPG not relying on the player's motor skills and reaction time is a "good thing". In RPGs the abilities of the player character matter, or should matter, more than the player. Imagine you're a mediocre and maybe slow player, but your character is a highly dexterious almost-hero. Wouldn't you want the character's abilities to determine the outcome of fights? Just because the player's not quick, doesn't mean the character can't be either.

That said, as a general info, don't fall prey to helping the player too much. Maps with a location indicator can practically crush all observation and make the 1st person view utterly useless, quests with map markers or tl;dr; summaries are insulting to the patience of the reader and make all the carefully crafted quest text forgettable filler. Similarly, weaponry with visible stats. Sure, it's common RPG fare, but one of the oldest rules in the book for good narrative is "show, don't tell". It's much more helpful to show the impact of a weapon, or the player character's reaction to it, than some numbers. Trust the player, and respect their abilities, that's key to making a game challenging and fun.

Speaking of Wizardry, what's the best version of Bane of the Cosmic Forge?
I'm not really a fan of the original on PC, so I want to play one of the ports/remakes.

>>2561547
What was wrong with the PC version that you hope a port or remake fixes?

>>2561547
Isn't SNES your only option unless you can read Japanese?

The Saturn version's early 3D art seems soul-killing though

>>2561550
Not him, but awful art, sound effects and absence of music maybe?

>>2561573
See personally I can shrug off all that, but the menu navigation leaves something to be desired.

>>2561550
It's just like >>2561573 said, my only experience with Wizardry was Llylgamyn Saga (I-II-III) and New Age of Llylgamyn (IV-V), both on the PS.
Coming from the beautiful 2D artwork of the PS version to PC is a kind of a turn off to me.

I'll probably go with SNES, then.

>>2561573
SNES

>>2543292
What makes it good enough to warrant a mention? Does it stand out from the crowd for some reason?

I've played this one:


AD&D - Forgotten Realms - Menzoberrazan

If just found out the Amiga Wizardry 5 (and I guess DOS version also) lets you type in text when talking to NPCs. That's a pretty big plus in my book. Wish more games did this... See Mike Tyson's comment here:
http://www.lemonamiga.com/games/details.php?id=2670
I mean, as computers got more advanced they started focussing on graphics instead of improving parser and AI which would have allowed lifelike conversations with people/creatures you meet and interacting with the environment in unique and interesting (and possibly humorous) ways.
Sure most games let you select choice from a menu, but it's not at all the same...

>>2563317
I'd recommend the FM Towns version for Heart of the Maelstrom. It has all the advantages of a keyboard and you get nice graphics and music.
I've even managed to transfer characters with the PC-98 ports.
5 was never ported for the Amiga, 6 is the only one of the whole series.
The parser in 5 and 6 isn't really that great. It may sound like a step up from Ultima's keywords but it's effectively more limited and frustrating.

>>2563317
Graphics and AI development are two completely different fields. There's literally people in academia and industry who specialize in one or the other and their published work eventually gets adapted for use in games. And what you're talking about isn't AI, it's just a scripted response to a keyword.

Point and click adventure games accomplish the exact same thing as what you're talking about, just a lot more elegantly.

>>2563317
>That's a pretty big plus in my book
It would seem to be, and Wiz 7 and 8 made great use of it, but in Wiz 5 and 6 it's more of an annoyance, since except their specific quest-related keywords (which could easily be substituted by conversation choices) the NPCs have nothing to say.

>>2563317
>That's a pretty big plus in my book
It would seem to be, and Wiz 7 and 8 made great use of it, but in Wiz 5 and 6 it's more of an annoyance, since except their specific quest-related keywords (which could easily be substituted by conversation choices) the NPCs have nothing to say.

Though admittedly it might have some value for speedrunners, and people who want to sequence break in general...

>>2563317
>>2563572
I honestly hated the keyword system because most of the time, the response I seem to get from NPCs is "I don't know what you're talking about"