/vr/ - Retro Games

>>2523514
Hard corps and alien soldier will KICK your ass.

So will la mulana. Not sure if retro though. I think it was just made to look retro.

Is Unlimited Saga hard? And Romancing Saga?

>>2523514
>DD3
>good pain

Pick one. DD3 was just all around shit.

>>2523554
SaGa series can be obtuse, owing to its nonlinear nature and somewhat random mechanics in battle and stat progression. Unlimited SaGa takes that approach more severely than prior games in the series, and I imagine it would seem both awful and absurdly unfair to someone who was unprepared.

No, it's just a list of all the games some neckbeard owned as a kid like virtually all lists you see posted.

>>2523514
This looks like a list of games chosen at random.

If you want a difficult challenge try 1 crediting one of the gradius games or simalar arcade games. It's common knowledge among hardcore gamers that the most difficult action games are arcade games.

A list of 'difficult action games' should not have a single console game on it.

>>2523514
Wizardry IV

Good luck with that

>>2523635

Games like Hards Corps or Alien Soldier could very well be arcade games, and they're hard to 1cc.
F-Zero GX IS an arcade game, AC and GX were essentially the same game. It's also hard as balls to win all cups, probably the hardest racing game for sure. It's not /vr/ though, but I'd say F-Zero X on Master difficulty comes very close.

And yeah Gradius III should be on the list.

>>2523635
It is easier to 1 credit a gradius game then to 2 credit it. Because if you lose your upgrades late game you are fucked.

Fuck everything.
Try to win Toki, i'm not even asking you to do a 1cc run, just win it.

I challenge anyone to complete Quest Of Ki without savestate scumming. I've done it, but it is very difficult.

>>2523757
Would it have killed them to have more than one song for the whole game?

>>2523554
Unlimited Saga is only hard due to its unconventional character growth mechanics when it comes to putting skills on the panel. I just slapped skill panels onto the character and hoped for decent stats and still made it through one of the routes.

The Romancing SaGa remake? For the love of god don't grind, the battle rank ramps much faster than some of the other SaGa games. You will find yourself with an unwinnable file if you grind without purpose.

>>2523752
Contra Hard Corps. isn't too bad.
>Gradius III
Arcade? I don't think I'll get midway through stage two none-the-less get to the cube stage. That game is relentless.

>>2523554
>Is Unlimited Saga hard?
It's the hardest game in the series and one of the most complex and hardest JRPG ever made, if not the hardest.
You know how /v/ used to boast about The Last Remnant being not for casuals or the Dwarf Fortress of JRPG? Unlimited is harder and more complex than that.
It's more or less like Wizardry 4, doesn't hold your hands, require a lot of knowledge about the series mechanics and deliberately tries to make you insane.
>Romancing Saga?
The SNES original is kinda hard but not that difficult, it's also very clunky and archaic, the PS2 remake is mechanically almost completely different but for most things it's easier to get into.

Also, not retro.

>>2523758
That was pretty common in 8 bit games, hoss.

>>2523776
not really? even mario had a couple different songs

>F-Zero GX Story mode on expert
It was hell to complete that. I replayed the game not long ago and could barely beat the first stage on the lowest difficulty. When I was a teen I had too much free time to play the same game over and over until I won. I miss those days.

>>2523753
>It is easier to 1 credit a gradius game then to 2 credit it. Because if you lose your upgrades late game you are fucked.

LOL. Did you play the games bro?

All you need is a speed boost and bomb to be able to handle the non-boss parts. To handle the bosses you just need a laser or option. This is partly because of how the rank system works. The enemies become more aggressive the more power ups you get.

You are probably thinking of the console version of gradius 1,2,&3 which had much more linient (or in some cases no) ranking system

>>2523779
Pick up nearly any nes game released in 1983 or 1984. A huge number of them are single screen games with one or two looping songs. SMB was certainly forward thinking, with four (?) different songs. But many games were even more simple.

>>2523752
If you are are honestly comparing relatively easy games like Hard Corps to Gradius 3 than you really don't know anything. The only platformer series ever to be as hard as the hardest shmups is the Ghost n Goblin series (and only the arcade versions).

Hard corps isn't even the most difficult contra game! Alien wars on hard mode, shattered soldier, and uprising were all much more challenging.

The list is fucking terrible. It honestly looks like it was made by someone that never played video games and made the lift off hear-say. Seriously there are fucking rpgs on the list but no strategy games? Everyone knows strategy games test the same skills as rpgs but are a million times more complex and thus harder.

La Mulana has fucking unlimited continues, so does Armored Core. Limited continues and Infinite continues are LEAGUES apart. There should be zero games with unlimited continues on the list.

Why has no one else seen that the list is terrible. It's not even that the games are wrong. The person making them genuinaly does not know what makes a game difficult. Why not add Devil May Cry 3, Final Fantasy 7, and some random Loonie Toons games. Would make just as much fucking sense.

>Double Dragon III
>Hard
Confirmed for watching only the AVGN review of the game.
Three words: Cyclone Spin Kick

>Contra: Hard Corps
How exactly do you "beat" a game with multiple endings and characters? Does it count if you get to any of the endings in one credit as any character or does it has to be every ending?

The three games on the left aren't that hard, Double Dragon III is a meme because of AVGN, Contra Hard Corps can be completed in a couple tries, Alien Soldier is kinda tough, but there is SuperEasy mode

>>2524585

I wasn't saying the games on OP's list are the hardest ever, just telling that guy that games like HC or AS could be arcade games on their own.

Also Gradius III arcade is pretty hard m8. There's probably some more obscure bullethell games that are "harder" if you try for some specific score build up, but Gradius III arcade is famous for its difficulty.

>>2525218
It's not even that the list doesn't have the hardest games ever. It's that it's not even consistent.

Etrian Oddyssy isn't even remotely difficult, its literally grind to win, sure it's harder than most RPGs but RPGS are the easiest genre ever! That's why I said if you added a random Final Fantasy or Loonie toons games it would make just as much sense.

It's just a list of 9 random from a guy who probably never played a single one. The correct title should be 'a list of 9 games with no relationship to each other'. It's not that one or two things is wrong with the list. The entire list is fucked up.

And no Hard Corps is nothing compared to arcade games. The game's enemies are far more predictable and have more forgiving timing compared to arcade games. The invulnerability slide gives you huge, huge margin for error. Think about how unpredictable the weakest enemy soldier in Meta Slug is: they can do a leaping stab, throw a lobbing grenade or drop a mine on the ground. Contra enemies are almost 100% predictable. Think about how long the tells for a bosses attacks in Hard Corps are compared to the tells for Ghosts and Goblins.

>>2524581
1942 comes to mind

>>2525231
I 1cc'd Metal Slug 3 well before 1cc'ing Hard Corps. Hard Corps US version is pretty well known as a difficult game. That being said, it isn't at all one of the most difficult side scrolling shot em ups. Metal Slug 3 is also a much better game in just about every way.

>>2525247
>>2523514
>>2523520
>>2523554
>>2523569
>>2523602
>>2523606
>>2523635
>>2523643
>>2523754
>>2523757
>>2523758
>>2523763
>>2523764
>>2523779
>>2523838
>>2524572
>>2524619
>2524581
>>2524648
>>2525231
>>2525243
over 20000000 horus in ms paint. This is a list of some of the actual hardest games of all time that aren't hard because of bullshit mechanics

>>2523514
I am a fucking awful, can't beat SMB without savestates-tier gamer (not literally guys), and I haven't had too much problem with Hard Corps, most of it was doable for me in a few dedicated sittings. Also Etrian Odyssey and not say the Return of Werdna or even just the other oldschool Wizardries? Those are from entirely different planes of difficulty.

Also that Gameboy version Return of the Joker? How is it worse than the NES game? Just being curious, never played it

If you want hard, try anything on the Turbografx 16.

>>2525293
It's a bit better.
Batte toads and batman should not be on the list. Same thing with contra/alien soldier. They are insigificant compared to top end arcade games (Shadow Dancer, Strider, etc.)

LOL at putting a jrpg on there. Same with King's field. Might as well throw in Dark Souls and COD: Black Ops on hardened as well I understand those games are pretty intense!

>>2525293
>Wizardry IV
>Non bullshit mechanics
Being 1-shot by most encounters, random encounters being worthless except to weaken you and steal your plot-important shit, trial and error traps, floors where you need to walk into every wall hoping to find the necessary secret room.
That is non-bullshit to you? The game runs on 95% luck

>>2523514
About the only one I'll outright agree with is the SaGa title. All the SaGa games are pretty hard, save the original third one. They're doable, but you have to know what you're doing.

I fucking dare you to step into Frontier 1 blind.

>>2525372
What? No. Do you find shooters difficult or something?

>>2525372
>TG16
Bonk isn't exactly what I would call the hardest platformer on Earth.

It did even have a Tower of Duraga remake that didn't make it any easier though, so I see your point.

>>2525471
Are you seriously implying that TG16 doesn't have anything but shooters?

Not retro, but La Mulana is a fucking amazing game.

>>2525493
No, I was just imagining what that Anon thought was difficult on the TG16.

>>2525389
You really need to read up on last remnant. It's an obscenely difficult game that you can't grind in. It's a very non-traditional JRPG. Also Strider can be a seriously bullshit game.

>>2525574
>Strider
What? How? It doesn't even get difficult until the anti-gravity stage, and then the final boss fight -- both of which are hard because of the pits/lack of ground.

>>2525579
Bullshit mechanics. Not really that it's a hard game itself.

>>2523514

We should have a proper /vr/ version of this maybe in different genres if things get out of hand.

>>2525574
So Strider is bullshit but Wizardry 4 isn't.

You can get ambushed by a thief in wizardry 4 and the thief can steal an item that is required to finish the game forcing you to reset the game. There are no ways around this.

Also I don't think you realize this but strategy games are infinitely more complex and thus harder than rpgs. The only exception is rpgs like wizardry or old ultima games where the exploring/navigating is hardcore.

Rpg fans are notorious for screaming that their games are 'difficult' 'hardcore' and take the same level of skill as beating Cave's Shmups on their 2nd loop or beating fire emblem/x-com on their highest difficulty. Go on /v/ and there's people that think Shin Megami Noctorine is the hardest game ever because you have to use the fire demon against the ice boss.

>>2525589
You'd need to break it into different genres. VS games and single player games operate completly differerntly.

Also some genres are just plain harder than others (action games vs rpgs).

You would also need to firmly establish the rules. Obviously you would rate the game for it's highest difficulty and 1credit for arcade games but there are other things to consider?

For instance will you grade a game on 'playing for score'? Gigawing and Thracia 776 have notoriously hard to pull off scores but their basic game is much easier.

What about games with multiplayer? Final Fight (arcade) is 10x easier with a second player.

What about games with multiple loops? Do we grade gradius 3 for it's first play through or it's later loops?

That's sort of the problem with making a list like this anonymously. It just turns into a bunch of people screaming meme games (omg ninja gaiden so hard!) instead of laying out the rules and only letting experts talk.

>>2525597
>or beating fire emblem
yeah cause fucking save scumming is soo hard right?
The problem with the difficulty in something like X-Com, or FE is that it's just RNG dice rolls fucking you in the ass. Is that what we're going to assume difficulty is? Because I think that's a really garbage definition of "difficult".

Who gives a shit if a game is harder than another. Play games to have fun and if you think that X or Y is fun then fucking play X or Y how hard is it.

I can't help but call you out on Fire Emblem though, the only difficulty about it is how hard the AI is going to ram you in the ass on hard mode, and how many times you're going to reload your save. That's not difficult that's just fucking tedium. The same tedium as grinding in a traditional RPG.

>>2525609
>Who gives a shit if a game is harder than another.
Everyone on this thread. If you don't like the discussion click on another thread idiot.

>how many times you're going to reload your save. That's not difficult that's just fucking tedium

So basically you are casual scum and if you do not win the first time time than it's artificial difficulty.

>RNG dice rolls
If you've played fire emblem you should know that with proper positioning you won't lose the game just cuz an enemy rolls a crit. You can out-right lose if the enemy gets crazy luck and crits every single time but this extremely rare. A good tactician can survive bad RNG but just out positioning the enemy and rationing their resources properly. I'm going to assume you either never played the game or your experience is limited to Awakening which is notorious for having horrible balance issues.

>>2525625
You're a fucking retard. Awakening's horrible balance issues come from the fact that you can be incredibly strong to the point where you steam roll all the enemies in the game. Bringing that up doesn't help your point AT ALL unless you're talking about Lunatic where that is incredibly unbalanced in Awakening, but Awakening gives you so many options that you can make strategies to cheese Lunatic and still make it a cakewalk. Stop just mindlessly spouting shit you hear on /v/.

FE isn't hard but there are definitely times where the RNG can fuck you in the ass no matter your tactics. I've had moments where a unit would miss a 97% chance to hit and win the map and MISS(with true hit that's a fucking .15% of happening) and then the unit proceeded to get OHKO'd. I've also seen someone get fucked in the ass because a unit with a 51% chance to hit also got a 1% crit, that's a .51% of happening.

FE's RNG can ruin a map that was going incredibly well in a single second, good tactics or not.

>>2525651
I was comparing FE to jrpgs when I said it was a difficult game. You didn't read that (or didn't remember). When I said fire emblem is hard I'm comparing it something like Shin Megami or Dragon Quest.

What I said about Lunatic is exactly the same thing you are saying, the balancing was a mess.

RNG in FE can do weird stuff but it doesn't really invalidate the challenge. You are basically making it seem like it doesn't matter what your tactics are, just roll virtual dice to win or lose when that's far from the truth. If you are constantly failing changing tactics is going to make a hell of a lot more difference than an extra miss or two.

Also probability doesn't mean that unlikely things do not happen. You do thousands of attacks in a campaign of fire emblem so things that have a .1% chance to happen will probably happen, multiple times.

>>2525609
X-Com is legit an actually hard game. Yea the AI cheats and is bullshit but good tactics can always work around that. Go play dark souls or something.
>>2525608
I think for Shooters dodonpachi daioujou takes the cake. It took 8 years for someone to beat it. For FPS definitely Plutonia, it was only recently even beaten with no deaths; and doom isn't exactly an unpopular game. Strategy is bar none X-Com. I think RPG's we can pretty much universally agree on Wizardry 4 as the pinacle of bullshit hard RPG's.

>>2525738

>no lost levels

>>2525738
>>2525739
Agree with your points.

If we are going count extra loops, true endings, etc. You might wanna look at gradius 3 on the it's later loops.

Platformer I think the hardest is the arcade ghosts and goblins, two loops, very unpredictable enemies.

The most difficult beat em up I know of is the Punisher. The later levels are stupid hard to 1 credit.

Axe battle toads. You could replace it with literally any 80s arcade side scroller. For instance Rolling Thunder is a million times harder, as is Raiden, as is

Axe last remnant. It doesn't deserve to be on the same list as wizardry 4. We should probably replace it with an RTS in the theme of having genre variety.

Can anyone vouche for robotron. How does it compare to something like Shock troopers?

>>2525739
Also Net Hack would be a good replacement for last Remnant. Beating it without reading guides is a huge achievement because there are so many random mechanics to learn.

>>2525749
Give it a try yourself or just look up a video. It's pretty mind numbing to play on an actual cabinet, the lux is very bright and distracting and the bullets are very difficult to physically see. I frankly can't get past wave 30 within a reasonable amount of credits. But i don't have much trouble with Ghosts and Goblins. Great point about Gradius 3, Battletoads, and Last Remnant. How about Nethack replacing Battletoads? It's hard to argue that Nethack isn't a hard as balls dungeon crawler.

>>2525772
I can't comment on robotron. I'll emulate it some time, thanks for the tip.

I guess it's about right. If you wanted to go a step further the next thing would be to break into various genres so we can mention more than 9 games.

Gonna save this image btw

>>2524585
Jesus Christ, thank God we found the biggest autist of hard games on the entire board.

Or you're just an annoying cunt. You may be right, but goddamn if your posting style and almost obnoxious hard line opinions don't annoy the fuck out of me.

>>2525772

I'm finding it real hard to put a Nethack as a hard to beat game simply because of it's rng nature. It's still a great game it just shouldn't be on a list of "hardest to beat" games.

>>2525796
I'm fine with him being a cunt if his opinions are mostly correct.

I like the idea of Nethack ascension being the definitive hard RPG experience. Not to mention it's actually really fun to play as well.

>>2525772
Do we really need three shooters though? I feel like Sokoban or another puzzle game should be in there.

>>2525293

Toki has not a single bullshit mechanic.

>>2525802
Honestly, I have a tough time saying to not include those games. They are very different from each other, and completely different styles of shooters. I'm not sure what's even comparable in difficulty.
>>2525798
I have to disagree with this. Nethack is a completely fair game in every respect. The RNG never really fucks you over in it.
>>2525790
Agreed. We'll have to start a hard games general or something.

>>2525802
Shmups are hands down the hardest genre of action games. They deserve more slots because of that. Genres should not get equal represenatation otherwise we would have to include visual novels, point and click adventures, jrpgs and tons of other genres which simply fall short in difficulty compared to other games.

This is another reason we should have another image that divides the games up into genres. For instance Serious Sam might deserve a spot in the FPS section and we could actually mention jrpgs.

>>2523514
Hard Corps was pretty easy. I mean I guess it depends on what character you choose, but even with just the default regular guy it was one of the easier Contras imo. If all else fails just choose a different route.

>>2525798
>I'm finding it real hard to put a Nethack as a hard to beat game simply because of it's rng nature
And yet you're keeping Wizardry IV on the list, a game where a thief can steal plot-important items and most encounters can 1-shot your party.

>hard rpgs
I sure love grinding and reloading.

>>2526134
>Hard Shmups
I sure love memorizing every spawn and boss pattern
>Hard FPS
I sure love memorizing every map and monster position and items position

and so on...

>>2526134
Except you can't grind in either of the RPG's listed. It's like you've never even played those games.

>>2526842
They listed etrian oddysey 2, that game is a giant grind fest

>>2526858
We've established that the first list is shit. I though he was talking about Wizardry 4 and Nethack.

>>2526842

Better list.
>>2525772
It should be noted that this involves playing the games in the highest form.

That means highest difficult, no quarter feeding, no looking up guides for the rpgs/strategy games, and not save scumming.

>>2523514
>Nine Breaker
>not Last Raven Portable

>>2525772
change Image Fight to R-Type since the latter is more iconic

>>2526898
>more iconic
That's not the point.

>>2526907
if you say so

>>2526898
And let's replace wizardry with Final Fantasy and NetHack with Dragon quest. Those are more iconic eh?

The text at the bottom outlines that these are supposed to be extremely difficult games. It even lists lesser difficulty games that do not make the cut like Metal Slug or Contra.

It's already the best 'list of difficult games' I've seen.

>>2526923
>Those are more iconic eh?
not for their difficulty though

>>2526898
Gradius is definitely more iconic than R-Type though. And Image Fight is not only far more difficult, but also well known in the shmup community as one of the most punishing, difficult verticals of all time. Also Last Raven Portable would be a better pick for the initial list. I think someone just made it of games that they played.

>>2526926
The list isn't "games that are both iconic and hard"

It's 'games that are hard'

It's designed to measure only one fucking part of the game and it's how you make a good list. You don't measure two or three different things and split the difference otherwise you end up looking like every other stupid list on the internet which lists Dark Souls, Contra, and Shin Megami as 'hardest games ever'. Those games are on the list not because they are hard but because they are 'iconic' even though they are laughable easy compared to Image fight (a game most people probably never even heard of)
^This is

>

>>2526953
I see your point but difficulty is just what I had in mind when I suggested R-Type in my original post

>>2526960
good suggestion by the way

If we're talking shmups, then we might as well add Ketsui for it's infamous Ura 2-ALL. To even access the 2nd loop you need to perfect the 1st loop and have 120 milion in score at the very least.

There's also Mushihimesama Futari Ultra which is just a relentless onslaught of bullets.

Psikyo also has some very hard shmups like Dragon Blaze and Sengoku Blade.

>>2525772
I see Dodonpachi Daioujou on the list. But are we talking about White Label, Black Label or Death Label?

Webm related, it's Ketsui's TLB.

>>2526976
Image fight is more difficult than R-type, unless you can contest that R-type is the harder game it doesn't deserve a slot.

Think about the function of the list. It's to provide a list of the most difficult games for people that want an extreme challenge. The only reason we should allow an EASIER game to be on the list in favor of a harder one is if it provided a new flavor of challenge (for instance Wizardry 4's challenge is completely different than Image Fight's challenge). The other reason would be if a game is difficult but simply not worth playing (ie some obscure 70s arcade game with boring level design).

I think what we need is a second list that breaks it up into genres. Than we can as many games as we want on the list. We can even include jrpgs and other genres that simple would never be mentioned any where else.

>>2526984
>White Label, Black Label or Death Label?
not that much difference between them. black label gives you the option to go into second loop without meeting the requirements and death label is just the boss rush mode with one life

>>2526984
>There's also Mushihimesama Futari Ultra which is just a relentless onslaught of bullets.
>Psikyo also has some very hard shmups like Dragon Blaze and Sengoku Blade.
If we're talking danmaku/bullet hell, I think Dodonpachi Black should be the one.

>>2527007
>Dodonpachi Black
what the hell is that?

>>2527000

>not that much difference between them. black label gives you the option to go into second loop without meeting the requirements

It does that? I'm fairly certain you have to get certain requirements to access the 2nd loop in BL as well.

Besides, WL is significantly harder than BL. The reason I originally asked my question was because DL is a boss-rush while WL/BL are full games.

>>2526997
>Image fight is more difficult than R-type
I don't disagree with that but there are so many difficult retro video games out there that compiling a list of all of them would be an absolute chore, which is why we should compensate by including games that are notorious for their difficulty (including Ghosts & Goblins as opposed to say, a random platformer clone from the TurboGrafx).

this is just me though, it's up to you to ultimately decide what the list is going to be all about. I'm just spewing suggestions

>>2527038
Suggestions are good, even rejected ones are good because they make discussion.

>>2526984
The pic is from the most difficult versions box art (death label). I have a hard time placing any more shmups on there as I can't think of any that are more difficult than the other games listed. Wizardry 4, Nethack, Plutonia and X-Com are incredibly difficult games. Maybe Ghosts'n Goblins can be replaced? Although, to beat it in no deaths/3 credits is incredibly difficult. Although it's hard to argue that
>>2526960
Isn't an absurdly hard game.
I can definitely agree Futari 1.5 is one of the hardest shmups of all time.
>>2527019
Yea it does that. Death Label is definitely the hardest rendition of the game, mostly due to the final boss.
>>2527038
I think Ghost'n Goblins should stay on there because the mechanics are actually fair. Where as a lot of platformers have broken mechanics, or are just cheap (ala Ninja Gaiden) despite them being difficult games. There's nothing wrong with discussion though, i'd love to hear some more suggestions. It's fun trying to play some of those absurdly hard platformers. And oldschool verticals/horizontal shooters require a greater level of finesse compared to modern Cave shooters or Bullet Hells.

>>2527121
What's with this ninja gaiden is cheap meme? Every encounter can be beaten without using power ups or getting hit (exception 5th boss but you get healed to full and the fight is balanced around undodgable attacks) . Once you realize that you have to keep moving forward whenever possible it solves the problem of enemies re-spawning endlessly.

The chart is supposed to be talking about the arcade GnG, naturally this means playing the game on 1 credit.

I honestly don't know of any platformer that is harder. GnG cannot be beaten with pure memorization the way you can with ninja gaiden or contra. The enemies movement patterns have enough randomness so you are always on your toes. You can't cheese by getting the right power ups (spread shot? spinning blade? grenade spam to murder bosses in metal slug?). The time limit is actually somewhat strict. Health system is very unforgiving even by NES standards. There's also a mandatory second loop which forces you to use an inferior weapon.

Even within the community of people that 1cc arcade games beating the game is considered impressive.