/vr/ - Retro Games

It's a mixed bag from what I seen. For one: some games look good when upscaled on an hd tv, but there's also input lag, which is far more noticeable on hd tvs, and light guns are rendered useless.

You make your own rules.
If you want to play emulators with 5000 filters and that's acceptable to you, then so be it, enjoy.

Just have in mind old games were developed in standard definition, not HD, so they kinda were made to be displayed on CRTs, yeah.

The best you can do is try for yourself, compare how it is to play on an HDTV, and then a CRT, then choose which one you liked better.

>>2491728
>>2491720
Yeah that's what I've heard. I tested my NES today and some games looked decent (Kirby's Adventure) while some looked pretty terrible (Super Mario Bros. / Duck Hunt).

I have really shitty CRT at the moment but I did see one on a garbage pile at a house near me....It's been there for a month or so, and I'm hoping it doesn't turn out to be shit. If this thread is up tomorrow I might make an update:

>>2491708
Unless you're using something like a Framemeister and a flat-panel with the lowest lag you can possibly get, no. It's best to get a CRT as they're superior in every way to flat panels for gaming, with the exception of size & weight of course. If CRTs aren't an option for you at all, then go Framemeister-
http://retrogaming.hazard-city.de/micomsoft.html
otherwise if emulation is no biggie, build a cheap-as-fuck Linux machine and toss Lakka on that shit-
http://www.lakka.tv/articles/

On the subject of flat panels, if you don't mind something smaller in size, get a PC monitor, they usually have far lower input lag than LCD TVs and you can hook up your modern shit to it too.
http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/reviews.htm
http://www.displaylag.com/
http://wecravegamestoo.com/forums/monitor-reviews-discussion/

>>2491739
I need to update my crt. It's so shit. It doesn't even play games with composite natively, so I have a switch box. And only plays sounds in mono..

>pre 6th gen games on HDTV's

>>2491708
I play SNES games on my HDMI all of the time through composite. Some look just fine, such as Chrono Triggger, Final Fantasy 4&5, and Final Fight 3. Some look like complete shit though, like the Mario games, Final Fantasy 6, and the Donkey Kong country Trilogy.

Pic related, a bit dark, but that's what Final Fight 3 looks like, not too shabby really.

>>2491708

No you fucking moron. Don't come here and post stupid questions you idiot.

>>2491746

>Framemeister
>$350

Look at this idiot. He actually wants you to play $300 for a device that causes input lag

Just go to Craig's List and get a cheap or free CRT. Don't listen to any of the morons in this topic. Everyone on /vr/ is a fucking idiot.

Related to OP's post, What's a recommended CRT Brand, Model, and screen size to play Super Nintendo through composite?

>>2491708
No OP, that's illegal and violates several laws. If you play retro games on an HDTV, the police will come to your house, fine you $348.43, and call you a faggot.

>>2492026
Sony

Most recent HDTVs (not shit from like 2005) deliver acceptable performance with SD signals. Having said that, some games like Punch Out are completely impossible except on a CRT because of the screen refresh.

>>2491998
>stretched

You dumb fucking fuck.

>>2492068
Yeah okay, I have a CRT as-well Jack-ass. I was just saying which games looked okay on HDMI and which ones looked terrible. If you get Triggered by somebody hooking up a snes mini through composite, then I feel bad for you.

>>2492078
At the very least you should take your television's remote and unstretch the fucking screen before that aspect ratio gives you hepatitis.

>scart to component>42pannylcd
Don't care, input lag be fucked

>>2492083
Then I have to stretch it back and just, euhhh, I play on CRT when I'm playing seriously anyway. Before you ask, there's no way to return the screen to default without wasting a good minute or two.

http://www.unicornelex.com/Composite_to_HDMI_Upscaler_Converter_Box_p/28-0802.htm

Here, this is what you need.

>>2492090
>Composite to HDMI
Fuck no, you might as well as hook up the stock composite to your TV. Even RF via a CRT is better than the former two.

>>2492087
If that's the case, I'm sorry to inform you your TV sucks balls. Mine saves the ratio individually for each input and has a convenient 'format' button on the remote that cycles through them.

Also, CRT's are better.

>>2492134
Jesus Christ, people like you are the very reason I have such a hard time talking to fellow retro-gamers about this hobby. I get that I'm on 4chan, but nobody fucken' cares about your master-race SCART to RGB output from a CRT you have in your mom's basement.

It's really whatever you enjoy the most.

Lots of HDTVs have a noticeable input lag that can destroy the response time which many classic games require. I've heard plasma is decent when it comes to response time, and I know LED is better than LCD, but each model of TV varies as well. And there is still the issue of stretching and not experiencing the game authentically which turns many people off.

If you want to get the most out of original hardware or you don't want to have to worry about lag, you're best off getting a nice CRT. You can still pick up a Sony Trinitron for a pittance and they're excellent all-around (weight aside). I picked up a 27 inch Trinitron for 5 bucks at my local thrift store and it has no issues whatsoever as well as component inputs.

>>2492156
>I've heard plasma is decent when it comes to response time

That's very nice. Now we just need to get you a time machine back to 2003.

>>2492149
As I don't use SCART, and have a house, that's not true.

>>2492156
>Lots of HDTVs have a noticeable input lag that can destroy the response time which many classic games require
tbf you really only have to worry about this with fighting games

>>2492158
I'm not sure what the joke you were trying to make was exactly, but I'd like you to know I appreciate the effort.

>>2492160
and light gun games.

>>2492160
I just got bloody done saying that Punch Out isn't playable without a CRT.

>>2492160
Platformers and shmups can get pretty fucked on a laggier HDTV.

>>2492168
>and shmup

I'll have to connect the NES and try out Section Z on my Bravia to see.

>>2492159
is that a 1-chip?

>>2492160
Platformers, shmups, and rhythm games can be hell to play on a laggier HDTV.

>>2492172
yup. Didn't know it was when I bought it though.

>>2492060
What kind of laws do you violate if playing the original hardware? That sounds a bs statement and I doubt the police is allowed to insult you

>>2492182
goddamn it

>>2492180
That's neat, I'm waiting on the component cables to be released later this summer, I'd hate to destroy the casing on my mini.

>>2492168
Also I did play through Mega Man 1 on this TV and made it all the way to the final part of Dr. Wiley's castle before I quit because I needed to get something to eat. I don't remember it being any laggier than on a CRT.

One thing I do notice is that on HDTVs, you don't get that strobe effect when Mario gets hit by an enemy. Maybe it can't refresh the screen quickly enough?

>>2492170
Sony LED shouldn't be that bad. I have a smaller Sony LED I use for computer stuff and the lag on it isn't too bad. All my worst experiences have been on LCD TVs and one cheaper LED TV.

>>2492194
This is a regular LCD set from 2010. The upscaling itself is pretty good and things don't look jagged at all, but I couldn't tell you if the response time is good enough for games that demand fast input like fighters. It may not be because when you run SMB (which is 60 fps) there's noticeable smear trails from the graphics scrolling.

>>2492184
wait, component cables? what? What's being released?

This is RGB out, btw. Not YPbPr.

>>2492196
>60fps
No, 30 fps.

60 hertz interlaced means that 30 frames are drawn, half of each frame per vertical scan. 60 vertical scans in a second, 30 frames.

If it were progressive scan, you'd be correct.

>>2492197
Component cables are being released... I believe it's just a simplified and less expensive solution to RGB, but that's fine with me.

>>2492202
240 is 60 fps because both NTSC fields are drawn on top of each other while standard 480i has the fields displaced half a line, thus cutting the effective framerate to 30 fps.

Many NES games aren't 60 fps because doing so produces horrible dot crawl.

>>2492203
link?

Also, it's not going to be a straight component cable... The SNES does not output component (okay, some older ones do but it never reaches the multi-out port. It is generated internally and not used).

Anyway, it'll be an RGB to ypbpr converter chip inside a cable, I bet. And that means more stages between console and TV. Go ahead if you absolutely can't do a broadcast monitor or something, but be aware that it's not really a component cable as a 'converter'. If you give me a link, I might be proven wrong. But I doubt it.

>>2492196
Then again, I've had no problems beating Archon on this TV and it's pretty damn fast, especially the unicorns/basilisks.

>>2492205
actually, displaced a full line I thought.
Or at least thats what it looks like on my 20L5.

>>2492196
Sounds like you've got a winner. Different models have different lag levels and it's hard to get concrete data about each model. If you have a rhythm game those can be good to try as well.

I've got no real issue with HDTVs myself, but I can see why some people do. I game more on my LED these days than my CRT, mostly due to size and convenience issues.

Some HDTVs are just bad, but it's not as much of an issue as it used to be.

>>2492206
http://www.hdretrovision.com/
here you go.
and yeah, I'm pretty sure it's just a converter for the RGB signal, I'm still pretty excited for it though.

>>2492203
You should know that won't work on your SNES mini out of the box, if you mean these cables: http://www.hdretrovision.com/snes/

"There is no out-of-the-box solution available for the SNES 2 (Model No. SNS-101)"
That's because it must depend on the RGB output of the console and the mini does not output RGB externally like the other 1chips do.

>>2492215
meaning, you still have to mod your precious SNES.

Trust me, it's hard to fuck up with the holes if you just drill a few.

>>2492213
Like I said, I could try Section Z since this is the only shooter I really have. Archon and Mega Man seem to be beatable as far as I can tell.

>>2492216
>>2492217
P.S.
Honestly, at the resolution of the SNES, S-video is perfectly fine. Barely can tell the difference between S-Video and RGB on my PVM. S-Video is underrated.

>>2492216
Yes, I know, I'll get around to that, if I end up having to mess up the casing, then I will. It will be a shame though.

Sony was supposed to have some of the better TVs as far as video game performance, however this just might be because they're a console manufacturer and care more about that than, say, Toshiba.

>>2492218
It's worth a shot.

One easy way to tell is to try playing a game on your LCD for a while, then try soon after with a CRT and see if there is a noticeable difference.

My friend who runs an old game night recently got rid of one of his old CRTs with an older LCD his neighbor was throwing out, and I played MediEvil for the first time on said LCD and thought the game handled like shit until I took it home and tried it on my CRT.

>>2492012
Calm down bruda

Not everyone has the muscles to carry or room for a CRT

Each to their own maybe?

>>2492227
I am the least athletic guy I know, and I could lift my CRT up a flight of stairs. It hurt, but it was doable.

There is no excuse in the world, whatsoever, except sheer laziness, for anyone to not play on a CRT.

That said, if you are a lazy fuck, then go ahead and play Mario or Sonic like a fucking pleb normie on your PC hooked up to your HDTV. But if you do that or if you even hook up old consoles to a HDTV then you have no place in any proper "retro gaming community" outside 4chan, Reddit or whatever the fuck you kids use these days.

However if you decide to man up and act above your age, which I don't expect from a kid like you, go outside, buy a CRT and hook it up to your console. Done fucking deal.

You fucking pleb normies who never played these games back in the day fucking ruin everything.

>>2492182
oh dear

N64 is usually a big no (because Nintendo was fucking retarded, and used a shitty video encoder while removing all RGB support). Other consoles are usually fine enough.

>>2492235
>But if you do that or if you even hook up old consoles to a HDTV then you have no place in any proper "retro gaming community" outside 4chan, Reddit or whatever the fuck you kids use these days.

You are saying this to people that are on 4chan and not whatever 'proper' shit you are referring to. How autistic are you?


>However if you decide to man up and act above your age, which I don't expect from a kid like you, go outside, buy a CRT and hook it up to your console. Done fucking deal.
>man up

You seriously need to get laid buddy. Release some tension already.

>>2492225
Well, I just tried out Section Z and I don't see any noticeable difference except I remembered what a cheap, unfair POS this game is. Also it's murder on your thumbs.

>>2491720
>>
In my experience, the input lag is really only noticeable on older, shittier HDTV's.

>>2492270
As I said, my Sony HDTV seems to work quite fine. You probably can't play Punch Out on it, but all of the games I tested didn't have any discernible lag.

>>2492268
Seriously, I'm a couple of screens in and my left thumb is already in agony.

>>2492268
Ok, but now try it on a CRT just to be sure.

No.

>>2492250
Do people forget that they're posting on the retro video games board on an anime website made by former members of a tentacle porn fan group on a forum that you have to pay 10 dollars to post on?

Seriously, why is it that when somebody says:"beating a game through emulation doesn't count", everyone flips shit in disagreement, but when somebody says this:
>>2492235
Nobody seems to give a fuck.

>>2492083
stone lol'd

>>2492159
stone told - but why is your sync over coaxial? Scared of noise?

>>2492184
I hate to be the one to tell you this but the SNES mini lacks the RGB output required to transcode into component via the upcoming cables. You'll need to have the circuit rebuilt internally.

>>2492235
holy shit the autism is palpable. i know we're on 4chan and all but you really need to turn off the computer and go outside, take a walk in the woods or something. you've been looking at screens for far too long my friend.

>>2492218
>Mega Man
>not a shooter

>>2492426
It's a platformer with shmup elements. Section Z doesn't have any platforming.

>posts 71
>posters 23

Word of advice, when you samefag don't use the same exact wording in every post.

HDTVs for games that require twitch reflexes is pure masochism but really it's your call to make

>>2492398
The emulation vs hardware debate is parallel with the hdtv vs crt debate since emulators have to go out of their way to use crts and hardware people have to go out of their way to use hdtvs.

The difference in people's reaction comes from the fact that when an emulation person goes out of their way they're doing it to increase the
authenticity of their experience and that inherently comes with acknowledging that emulation is less than authentic.

The few hardware people that go out of their way to use HDTVs do it for convenience or a very small number truly believe it's the ultimate way to retro game and are so smug and self-satisfied they wouldn't even feel the need to defend their slight downgrading of their video signals since they paid hundreds of dollars to do it.

tl;dr way more emulation people are also CRT people than real hardware people are HDTV people

I can't really comment on "input lag" with CRT or LCD, I've played through a bunch of old school emulator games on an LCD display.

480i with composite cables (single yellow video cable) is blurry and some people prefer this with really old pixel games because the blurriness of the picture makes pixels appear more rounded, but I prefer a sharper picture and I like pixel art to be blocky as it was originally drawn. I prefer using component cables over composite every time.

I play old emulator games on my original softmodded Xbox with component cables, 480p.

>>2492479
You won't experience the same delay when you send progressive scan signals from an emulator

>>2492235
>Lazy
Spoken like an idiot.

Getting old games looking good on a hdtv isn't easy. Worth it since to me it's better than a CRT. Much sharper image and I get a 50" screen.
Zero lag with the proper setup.

>muh space

Don't get this argument at all. I live in a studio apartment and I own a dozen CRTs at least, what do you people have?

>>2492516
weak b8 mate

Pardon me if I don't get my terminology right, because there are still some fundamental differences between HDTVs and CRT TVs that I don't understand.

I noticed that CRT TVs expand the image so that it covers the entire screen, but when I try to play a retro console on an HDTV or LCD TV, the image is barely expanded, if at all. I don't just means the sides of the image, but the top and bottom as well. There will be black bars on all four sections of the picture. If the TV does decide to expand the image for some reason, then it will be expanded too much, and sections of the top and bottom will be cut off.

I realize that you can choose between full-screen and wide-screen input. That's not what I'm talking about. Selecting wide-screen will indeed stretch the image out on the sides, but again, the top and bottom will not be stretched to fit the screen. If they are stretched, then they get stretched so much that parts of the image get cut off.

The same thing happens regularly with TV broadcasts. There seems to be at least 10 pixels cut off from all sides of the image.

I think this is called "overscan," and I'm not sure how to adjust it. There doesn't seem to be any such setting on my TV. The only time my TV allows me to resize or reposition an image is if the video signal is coming in through the VGA input. There's no option to resize images from component or composite signals.

What are my options here? I thought about trying to hunt down a 4:3 LCD TV, but I don't know if that will display the image more consistently, or if it will just do the awkward scaling / overscan like my current HDTV does. I really don't want to go back to using a CRT.

These upscaling boxes I've seen online are just too expensive, and they cause distortion, blur and input lag. It would be like emulating the console and being forced to use filters.

>>2492217
actually the easiest way to not fuck up drilling holes is to first line up everything, then take a sharp pointy object and etch a dimple into the center point. this will stop your drill bit from sliding around. then use one of your smallest drill bits. next check everything still lines up, then move onto the proper size drill bit needed for the hole.

>>2491708

if it's the only/easiest way for you to play games, who gives a fuck?

>>2492526
It's not bait, champ
>>2492536
>These upscaling boxes I've seen online are just too expensive, and they cause distortion, blur and input lag. It would be like emulating the console and being forced to use filters.
If they cause distortion it's shit. If it causes blur it's because it can't see 240p and is treating it as 480i, it's shit. Same with lag.

What you're talking about is overscan. If the TV doesn't have options for "view mode" or "aspect ratio" then you can't do much.

>>2492536
>4:3 LCD
Enjoy your image tearing & lag, 16-32ms grey to grey is pretty standard on old true 8bit color depth LCD displays. Plus the contrast on all of them is shit. But if you really insist on going that way, look for a Dell UltraSharp display. You'll thank me later.

If you don't mind emulation, hooking up a little PC to your TV can result in some incredibly crisp retro graphics.

???

A whole bunch of posts just disappeared.

>>2492678
That's how /vr/ is moderated. Ignored completely or wiped indiscriminately.

>>2492536
4:3 LCDs haven't been manufactured since about 2006; all of them will have old, outdated, inferior panel technology.

>>2492696
Someone should really go to /qa/ and tell the mods to stop doing this.

>>2492678
>A whole bunch of posts just disappeared

Welcome to /vr/. The moderation here is unfortunately even shittier than /v/. I see they also recently nuked that Final Fantasy thread, no doubt for similarly inexplicable reasons.

That's why we like Masta Chan where no posts are deleted except CP and spam.

>>2492415
>why coaxial for sync?
Just was the only single RCA cable in easy reach. Most of my RCA cables are paired.
>>2492537
>put small ding on plastic after lining up for drilling holes, use smaller bits and widen out
That's exactly what I did.
>>2492215
You can already make a RGB to YPbPr converter. Take this diagram, but instead of using an LM1881 for sync, just use the clean sync signal from the SNES.

(diagram taken from here: http://elm-chan.org/works/yuv2rgb/report.html )

>>2492545
Most of this board, including myself, give a fuck.

If you want quality colors and black levels and sharpness for your light gun to work, you should give a fuck.

>>2493974
>If you want quality colors and black levels and sharpness

Most CRTs weren't really that good in terms of color/black level. Kind of a romanticized nostalgia goggles view of things.

>>2491750
Do you have to turn a dial to change the channel also?

>>2494467
Which is why you get the high-end shit which cost less than $500 at this point.

>>2492026
>>2492065
A bit late & I know Sony is the go-to but I actually would recommend against this if you're stuck with a shit signal like composite. Sony CRTs are generally (if not always) aperture grille televisions, and while they look spectacular with a good signal, they are naturally less sharp and reveal more picture imperfections than shadow mask sets. In my experience if you're stuck with a crappy signal, a shadow mask set is your best bet.

>>2494520
It's actually quite difficult to get a professional grade CRT in optimal working condition unless you're willing to shell out hundreds, these days. They see a lot of abuse.

>>2493974
Man, believe me, I care about all those things... But you're being an asshole. Not everyone is willing or able to invest the money and time required for the 'perfect' retro setup.

We need to bring back CRTs. In fact there was progress being done towards slimmer CRTs but it was abandoned in favor of the quick, easy, lazy, and cheap LCDs.

>>2494691
>it was abandoned in favor of the quick, easy, lazy, and cheap LCDs.
This could be said of basically every other display technology, many of which share the CRT's advantages without the bulkiness.
I get what you're saying, and I love how CRTs look... but plasma and OLED have those best qualities covered in nearly all areas that aren't retro gaming.
LCD is a cheap technology that has continuously fought off many better options... But CRTs only have niche appeal, these days.

>>2494703
>This could be said of basically every other display technology, many of which share the CRT's advantages without the bulkiness
Did you even read the post you were quoting? They were working on slimmer CRTs but gave up on it.

>>2494691
They aren't coming back. We just need advanced scaling and/or super high resolution displays with good IQ and performance that can effectively emulate dynamic scaling. Maybe QDLED will get there, maybe OLED will one day be good enough. There's definitely a benefit to be had from progressing past standard CRT, even SED/FED would facilitate that. Scaling large screens is very constrictive with CRTs and unwieldy and it would be nice to progress beyond that.

>>2494703
Plasma is dogshit.

>>2494715
Slimmer does NOT mean as slim or as light as true flat panel tech... There were slimline CRTs released, but they were still very heavy and bulky compared to their competition.

>>2494716
>They aren't coming back
Because you, anonymous unemployed neckbeard on 4chan, say so.

>>2494716
>Plasma is dogshit.

In what way?

>>2494729
What gives you the impression that they even have a ghost of a chance of coming back?

>>2494730
>What gives you the impression that they even have a ghost of a chance of coming back?

I would gladly buy a new CRT if I could. I'm sure many of us would.

>>2494732
Ok dat cool.

>>2494732
Well yeah... You're on /vr/.
Who else beyond retro enthusiasts or the occasional collector (or... hipster) would buy one? This is the same market where LCD has managed to crush superior competition many times over.

>>2494738
>LCDs
>2015
Most new TVs are LEDs and things like that.

>>2494741
Uhh... LEDs are LCDs, the only difference is the backlighting.
Also define "things like that," because I can't think of anything else on the market that is in a particularly good position right now.

I felt that CRTs should have not been replaced until we solved the problem of being able to use light guns/pens on flat panels. If that would be done, there's not a real need anymore to use them.

>>2494746
What? No it's not. An LED panel generates the picture with thousands of little red, green, and blue LED lights.

>>2494741
>>2494746
>>2494751
OLEDs have not really filled the market yet, save for some 4K displays. "LED" tvs and monitors are currently dominating, and yes, they're just LCDs with LED backlights. What a confusing thing for the industry to do, really.

>>2494751
I hate to tell you this bro... But this is exactly why they market them as LEDs and not LCDs, so you will think it's "different".
It's just an LCD with an LED backlight instead of CFL.

>>2494762
>>2494760
>tfw your phones have had OLED displays for 2 or 3 generations but you're still looking at the same gray-black halo-ish LCDs, low resolution sizzly plasmas and small, heavy CRTs you've been using the whole time because you aren't trying to spend $10,000 on a TV

Oh look another LCD thread devolving into parroting bullshit because people have some garbage LCD with shit blacks and lag.

CRTs were never going to get much bigger than 30" and not need a crane to move around.

People seem to have forgot that the 1080i CRT TVs had all sorts of post processing that caused lag.

Unless you need the deepest darkest blacks that match your fedora, LCDs are pretty much perfect for games these days. Got excellent scallers, low/zero lag, zero motion blur, and larger displays.

>>2494878
But you still can't use a light gun on them. :^)

>>2494881
Can't use a lightgun on most later CRTs either.

>>2494878
>Got excellent scallers, low/zero lag, zero motion blur, and larger displays.
Citation needed anon!
Not that it's impossible or anything. It just irritates me that LCD, as a technology, has had to work damn hard to even compare with the qualities inherent to other tech... Yet it's won out, because of low cost and convenience.
Also I think it's fairly unanimous that HD CRTs are shit for retro, except hi-res PVM/BVMs. Nobody's arguing that here.

>>2494925
The Sony TVs with strobing backlights.
Have few choices in monitors. Like the Asus lightboost. Benq has their version also.

>>2494895
wrong

>>2494934
Good luck with that then.

>>2491708
>This seems like a stupid question
Yes
>it is accepted in the retro gaming "community" to play retro consoles on an HDTV?
No

>>2494943
I played Snatcher with a Justifier justafine on my 2008 WEGA