/vr/ - Retro Games

>>2410650
>I think we can all agree
Six words and you're already wrong.

>>2410650
Not all of us, but I do agree that the C64 was better than the NES, but in the same way a Lincoln Town Car is the same as a Ford Crown Victoria

>>2410668
>but in the same way a Lincoln Town Car is the same as a Ford Crown Victoria
How does that make any sense?

Man, I had a c64 back then and I loved it but honestly not that much, there were some gems that couldn't work properly on a console, more variety but in the end I sense that the quality games on the NES are superior to the c64 ones (and mayhem on the monster land came too late)

>>2410670
How doesn't it?

> Almost every way
Except for its library of games and its controllers and its retail price

So I wouldn't go as far as to say "almost every way" but you could accurately day it is more powerful and versatile as well as having been available earlier - but that's not to imply it offers a better gaming experience by a long shot

>>2410687
>Except for its library of games
>10,000 games and still going strong
>Hundreds in almost every genre
>Not better
u wot m8

Also
>Implying the competition joystick wasn't the best controller in the 80's

>>2410704
Yeah type definitely delusional. 10,000 "games" is a ludicrous claim to make as the vast majority of those programs are essentially unplayable. Even if someone took the time to comb through all the garbage and pull the 1000 "best" games, at no point beginning middle or end would any of those games compare.

Furthermore while Coin Controls did make a decent controller and I treasure mine especially my 5200 one, it's no NES Advantage and there are still better NES controllers available.

>>2410732
>the vast majority of those programs are essentially unplayable
I can say the same about LJN NES garbage and other assorted kusoge of which there is no shortage on the NES, what's your point?

>>2410704
Not to mention you can use anything from the vast variety of Atari compatible controllers.
One button may be limiting to some games but so are the NES's 4 compared to the full keyboard on the C64.

Being better than the NES doesn't mean much though when you consider there were even better options available such as the Amiga.

>>2410650
This is one of the most idiotic claims on /vg/

You can't make a comparison between those two, they're machines created for radically different kinds of audience, it's like saying that a NASA calculator is better than my laptop, of course it is, but I wouldn't have any use for a fucking NASA calculator.
NES was a product aimed for kids and people who played games casually, the C64 was aimed for people who liked to create stuff rather than just sit and play, if you were interested in making your own stuff or generally writing code and shit the C64 was GOAT but no fucking 10 years old kid or the average dude would have even dreamed of doing such things.
Unless you only used the C64 to play games, in that case you're a just goddamn idiot who squandered the machine's potential.

>>2410824
I coded with my Commodore when I was 10. It didn't amount to much but I don't think it was outlandish.

I owned both, NES was better.

>>2410650
NES was, I think, graphically better. Not more powerful (in fact probably much less powerful), but it could do higher resolution coloured sprites, which made a TON of difference. It also had a multi-button gamepad, and higher sound polyphony (at the cost of quality).

In everything else? The C64 completely destroyed it, hardware wise.

And yeah, NES has more impressive games library mainly because it was intended to be a game machine. C64 doing games was a bonus on top of being a full computer; and many games were written by hobby coders, or were very primitive.

Plus the NES encouraged platform games after Mario; the C64 did not, so you only have a handful of platform games on it to do an apples-to-apples comparison.

Personally, I don't think there's a single NES game that looks or sounds as good as Flimbo's Quest, even when you count limitations like how it only scrolls from left to right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFyWrmCCStQ

>>2410741
I literally (no exaggeration) said 90% of C64 "games" are unplayable and you didn't refute that claim, just anecdotally picked some shitty NES despite I also literally saying the bottom 10 percentile of NES games are better than the 91st percentile of C64 games.

For reference, look at a "100 C64 games in ten minutes" compilation and you'll definitely see plenty of games that are worse than say Friday the 13th on NES.

all it has is shitty europlatformers and euroshmups

its pretty bad

>>2410957
> better than Flimbo
Dithering like that was a more common art style on computers but you might compare Magician or Faxanadu plus deeper gameplay. I like Isometric games and there's a lot of those on C64 but Solstice still looks better.

>>2410957
What's wrong with amateur developers? Where do you think the NES games came from?
Being a dedicated game machine doesn't mean you get good games. You'll find plenty of dedicated game machines with nearly no games at all. Meanwhile the IBM PC family has the biggest and most impressive library despite being intended as a business device.

too bad nobody took advantage of its software properly and just made watered down NES/2600 freak hybrids.

you could make some awesome shit with its SID chip, go look up goattracker
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7ZDJ4Lzm80

>>2411015

Isometric games were more of a Spectrum thing. In fact, Solstice and Equinox come across as fan sequels to Knight Lore.

>>2411015
>Dithering like that was a more common art style on computers

I was thinking of the parallax background and the nice animation, fucking gigantic sprites (the dragon and the monster turtle blew my mind) that STILL had nice animation despite their size, on top of the absolutely silky smooth controls and GREAT music.

The gameplay was also good, it was simple and fun, and very console-like. And pretty fucking difficult especially on later levels, plus had its fair share of secrets.

>>2411098
>What's wrong with amateur developers? Where do you think the NES games came from?

Amateur developer for the NES means a guy who learned mathematics and got hired by, I dunno, Konami or so.

Amateur developer for C64 meant a guy doing text adventures in BASIC with 2 piece of backgrounds and 3 sound effects in total (or less). Huge difference in quality.

It has over 10,000 games, so post some that can match the NES library.

>>2411124
Personally I think Jeroen Tel was the dude who pushed the chip past its limits the most. Follin was okay too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFjEkKKKQlo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKHImVMWq3o

>>2410650
If you're in Europe where all the cool games were, yes.

>>2410704

I'm not sure when this started selling, it used real arcade parts and worked on 8 bit machines as well as on 16.

It's just a keyboard though?

>>2411803
I see we have a youngster here. Do you know how iMac are just screens with keyboards and mice attached? Well, back in the '80s, a lot of computers had everything in the keboard which would plug into a TV or monitor, with joysticks for game and later mice when GUIs became more popular.

>>2410650
What are some good games for it? I feel like everyone is at least aware of plenty of excellent older console games, but I am completely in the dark when it comes to older PC titles.

>>2411941

Only 2 Commodore 64 games I've loved are Monty on the Run and Wizball.

>>2411797
Sweet I better head over to eBay and - OHMYFUKKINGGOD

>>2413075
Just get a Genesis/MegaDrive joystick. They'll work in a C64, Amiga, and many other 80's computers.

>>2411012
/thread

>>2411012
>>2413092
Guess Ameritards found it too hard to code for.

>>2413117
Funny how many Americans hate an amazing home computer produced in their own country but are more than happy to suck Nintendo's cock.

>all the Nintendo fanboys in this thread

/vr/ used to be safe from these plebs

>>2413087
Better not. The megadrive pads hold a pin high (I forget which) that over time might fuck the IO chip on a C64. You know how if you have a megadrive pad plugged into port 1 and you can't type properly anymore? That's the pad fucking with the IO chip. And if you pull the cable out while the power is on, you lose stereo output on an amiga 500. You have to mod them to be safe.

>>2413127
no... no it didn't

If you don't care about japanese games, sure.

>>2410650
>I think we can all agree this is objectively superior to the NES in almost every single way
LOL
Compared to the NES, and even the Master System & MSX machines, the C64 just doesn't hold up. The bulk of it's games are painfully mediocre, if not just plain bad, and is hampered with being limited to a single button. And I know it sounds ultra-weeb, but I don't think it's games are as polished or as exciting as Japan's offerings on the platforms I mentioned previously.

The only GOAT original C64 games I can remember are Realm of Impossibility & Mayhem in Monsterland.

SID never really did anything for me either, it's rather overrated.

>>2413175
>hampered with being limited to a single button

And the NES is being hampered by not having a keyboard. And you can't write your own games or programs on it. It didn't have any cheap media you can save your data to either. Or output S-video natively. Or have it act as, say, a web server if you really wanted it to, because it was limited to 1 function (games), while the C64 was limited only by your imagination.

Of course the NES had better games - that was the only thing it could do. But the C64 had better everything else.

>>2413198

It's true the NES didn't have a keyboard (at least that I know of), but the Famicom did.

>>2411012
I don't get this euroshmup thing. Shmups in the 80s and early 90s seemed about the same in Europe and Japan. Bullet hell games came later, and by then Western devs had quit doing shmups.

>>2413119
I love Commodore gaming because I'm still discovering the Amiga library and enjoying comparing it to the SNES library. It ultimately doesn't challenge it but there's some great game design concepts in there that modern devs should go back and mine.

I have no doubt that when I get to deeply analyzing the C64 library I will also find many fascinating and innovative games, even some that never were fleshed out the way they might have been but I'm still very confident that as a gaming platform it won't challenge the NES.

It stomps the shit out of the Atari 8-bit computer library though. I think a better comparison for this flagrantly East vs West thread might have been C64 vs MSX but then it would have been a much slower thread - and as slow as /vr/ is getting lately well...

>>2413207
Was the keyboard usable for anything other than BASIC? The tape recorder was supported by some games.

>>2413175
>SID never really did anything for me either, it's rather overrated.
I prefer the NES, though it may be more of a difference between composers rather than the chips themselves. But, The Last Ninja 2 is my favorite 8-bit soundtrack. Matt Gray was operating on another level when he composed that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daI0CFZa9Ww

>>2413214

No idea, the Famicom had a ridiculous amount of add-on in Japan.

I honestly wouldn't compare the Famicom (a console) to the C64 (a computer).
Although as the other anon said, Famicom had better games, or at least it did to me.

>>2413213
The Amiga was more a rival to the NES. When the SNES came out it was already dying.

>>2413230
Well, as far as the time period goes yes and if you're trying to argue for Commodore a good basis for your argument might be "if this were 198X" since the geometrically more expensive Commodore hardware was unsurprisingly much more powerful than the proprietary, gaming focused console hardware that normal people actually played games on.

But truly in hindsight we must evaluate a system based on its library (if we're evaluating it as a gaming system, and this IS /vr/). Although retro computers were certainly more powerful and some very special games in limited ways outshone the competing console games, consoles for sure offer a better gaming experience with the notable exception of WRPGs.

Retro computers are fascinating since much more casual developers ("authors") had the opportunity to create games and as a result the library has a certain kind of appealing flavor but the reality is that there are still better games being released for the NES and that in the rare cases that people produce a notable new C64 game they're invariably a weirdo. q.v. pic related

>>2410650
Fuck off Jack Tramiel. You're spooky.

>>2413257
I was mainly thinking that there is no particular reason to compare the Amiga to the SNES. You wouldn't normally compare the NES or SMS to the SNES either.

The C64 wasn't terribly expensive, that was one of its main strengths. Since everyone pirated anyway you also had a far larger amount of games at your disposal.
There were a lot of genres aside from RPGs that worked better on computers. Be it from due to the keyboard (and mouse etc for Amiga&co) or the available storage space of floppy disks. Ultimately there were also 80s Nintendo's policies that hampered development.

>gaming focused console hardware that normal people actually played games on.
Europeans aren't normal people?

Who was C64's mascot?

>>2413225
OP is comparing it to the NES though, which was a Famicom in a video toaster box with incompatible pinouts.

>>2413230
>The Amiga was more a rival to the NES.

holy hell no. Not hardware wise anyway. The Amiga was stronger than the SNES in everything but maybe dedicated video hardware functions (which is the only thing that made consoles have comparatively equal power for games, compared to computers). And it came out in like, 1986, half decade before the SNES.

Comparing the Amiga to the NES is like comparing a Mac Pro to a Nintendo DS.

>>2413293
I agree that the C64 was doing a lot of things right and I wish my childhood computer had been one instead of a TI 99/4A since they were only slightly more expensive.

It's a shame Commodore was unable to transition that value into the 16-bit era the same way the japs did.

>>2413310
>Comparing the Amiga to the NES is like comparing a Mac Pro to a Nintendo DS.
And if anyone is having doubts about that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzK2jnmY_JY

>>2413257
>geometrically more expensive Commodore hardware
I seem to remember some stores selling C64's for $200 after the price war that they started. This was like in 1983-84 before the NES was out and the launch price of the NES in America was $200. Granted, you'd need to also buy a disk/tape drive and controller, but the Commodore certainly was attractive at that price.

>>2413198
>ITT: C64 is objectively bad because opinions
How about you come up with facts and numbers instead of "most of the games are bad because I say so and I dont like it abloo bloo bloo"

>ITT: C64 is objectively bad because opinions
How about you come up with facts and numbers instead of "most of the games are bad because I say so and I dont like it abloo bloo bloo"

>>2410824
>Unless you only used the C64 to play games, in that case you're a just goddamn idiot who squandered the machine's potential.
Except for the fact that the C64 hardware was originally designed for video games which is why a home computer even had such a retardedly powerful sound and video chip. If you were using it for spreadsheets THEN you could say you squandered it

>>2413525
>>2413535
I don't know why you deleted your comment and then posted the exact same comment.

>>2413297
Manfred Trenz

>>2413549
Because he misquoted

>>2413560
Ah.

>>2410976
>I literally (no exaggeration) said 90% of C64 "games" are unplayable and you didn't refute that claim
Are you retarded? You can't just randomly pull something out of your ass and then challenge me to debunk it. How about you give me evidence that 90 percent of C64 games are literally unplayable (as in, impossible to actually play) or keep looking like a dumbass passing off opinions as facts

>just anecdotally picked some shitty NES despite I also literally saying the bottom 10 percentile of NES games are better than the 91st percentile of C64 games.
You didn't say shit about the bottom 10 percentile of NES games and I challenge you to find a game on the C64 as shitty as Hoshi wo Miru Hito or Action 52

>>2413119
>tfw having to deal with PAL -> NTSC fuckery on an American made machine
It's a sin

>>2413075

Yes, arcade parts are pricey, what were you expecting?

Contra (NES):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXcVojj2GXk

Contra (C64):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9TLzIJIKxDs

>>2413225

>the Famicom had a ridiculous amount of add-on in Japan

dat knitting machine

>My console can knit sweaters, your argument is invalid!

>>2413713
Both look fantastic. What's the point of this post?

>>2413713

The NES version is better, but the NES version didn't cost $15 when it was new.

>>2413721
The knitting machine was Nintendo of America trying to make the machine appears as more than just a toy like they also sold R.O.B.
The Japanese addons weren't the product of a heartless business machine.

>>2413713
the Famicom version was better because Japanese Nintendo didn't prohibit Konami from producing their own cartridges.
Overall I'd say Nintendo of America in their quest for controls ruined the system.
Famicom > C64 > NES > C64GS

>>2413713
>Comparing an outsourced port versus the one made by the original developer
ayy lmao

Cybernoid (NES)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_PNq6CBsI

Cybernoid (C64)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VFKTng7N78

>>2413713
>>2413787
Butthurt as fuck.

>>2413664
> arcade parts are pricey
No they're not. A Siemetsu joystick and two buttons would cost like $25

>>2413119
>implying that shitty euro/ western games are superior to Japanese games.

Ew. I really don't get some people's taste.

>>2413212
most euroshmups dont even try to have good level design

they give you a lifebar and undodgeable projectiles and hope you can get through it

>>2413905
>being a weeaboo in 2015

The c-64 had a lot of shit games. But it had a lot of games the nes could never do that were awesome. The nes was polished but underpowered compared to the c-64. Most of the time.

>>2413937
I'll fuck you up sempai.

>>2413959
the nes was aimed at kids. And the c-64 was aimed at 30 somethings I guess.

>>2413997
I hear you lot talking about how the NES is underpowered compared to the C64, but the 6502 on the Commodore was clocked at almost 1mhz, while the NES CPU (In itself a second source 6502) went up to 1.6mhz. What are you gents also taking into account?

http://www.lemon64.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=14988

>>2414198
The c64 had games that were spread across 4 our 8 disks. nes couldn't do that. But its computer vers console so.

Speaking of C64 (which I've never owned), I've tried emulating it with Vice and I'm kind of confused by its image swapping capabilities. Is there a way to automatize the process by simply loading up multiple images in advance which then get called up whenever necessary? The default way of going through 3 menus to just to load up a conversation in a game and then back again is ridiculous.

Also, is there a decent pocket size system (phone, etc) that can emulate a C64 and not be a pain in the ass to use?

>>2414234

nes was better in a lot of ways.

>>2413905
The NES could have had a floppy drive attachment.

>>2414241
only played one game that was an ass about having to swap all the time. I would play something else.

>>2414256
dope.link?

The most crucial difference between the two: You could pirate games on the C64. All you needed was a spare disk or cassette tape.

>>2413787

It could be worse.


Cybernoid (Spectrum)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkmojdgUQ7k

All the Spectrum had going for it was crushing its competition in terms of price.

>>2414234
>nes couldn't do that.
NES couldn't, the Famicom Disk System could

>>2414241
Aside from controller and hardware scrolling I don't see many advantages

>>2414283
I was being nice.

>>2413230
>The Amiga was more a rival to the NES.
>yfw you realize the Amiga was supposed to be a games console before being turned into a computer at the last minute
>Americans could have curb stomped the NES and the Japanese games industry even in 1985 and chose not to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yJNGwIcLtw

>>2414241

They are just different.

>>2414317
windows was kind of a let down for a while though.

>>2414346
ugly dos. ahhh run its hiddious

>>2413119
It was popular as a games machine from its release until about '87 when the NES began really taking off. But a massive difference in the libraries between Europe and NA meant that while it was liked, it wasn't the go-to (heh, BASIC puns) machine: floppy disks were more popular and more expensive, and "budget" development didn't really exist like it did in the UK.

>>2413198
The NES was going to be turned into a computer with BASIC and everything for the Ameican market following the crash, but it was delayed and sold with ROB instead to make it seem like a toy instead of a game; it's a damn shame.

>>2413119
>>2413596
But Commordore is Canadian

>>2414303
>What is the Amiga CD32 system.

>>2414423
>commodore originated in Canada
Prove it.

>>2414423
No they aren't

>>2414430
An ill-conceived abortion that came far, far far far far far far far far far far far, far far far far FAR far far far far far far far far too late to make any meaningful impac

>>2414434
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodore_International

>>2414303
>yfw you realize the Amiga was supposed to be a games console before being turned into a computer at the last minute
I've read a bit about the history of the Amiga and have never heard anything about it being repurposed as a computer, and I doubt it would have even been possible.

>Americans could have curb stomped the NES and the Japanese games industry even in 1985 and chose not to
According to the HG101 article on the history of Japanese computers, the reasons why this didn't happen were: 1) Competition between computer manufacturers was intense in both the West and Japan, 2) the Japanese market was hard to break into because of local companies dominating the market, a lack of demand, and the difficulties of localization, and 3) Western computers weren't equipped to deal with the memory and display requirements of kanji and would have needed hardware modifications and/or upgrades.

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/JPNcomputers/Japanesecomputers.htm

>>2410704
>10,000 games and still going strong
And the bulk of them were complete shite!

The NES had it's share of shitty games but not nearly the ratio of dogbollocks, not by far.

Not that the Commodore -didn't- have gems, but if you poured out a copy of every single published game for it in a cargo container standing upright, shook it up, and started looking for games, you'd be digging for hours to find a decent pick of classics for the weekend.

>>2413541
>If you were using it for spreadsheets THEN you could say you squandered it
I never said that.
You could write your own code.
You could compose music.
You could draw amazing stuff.
You could do a lot of things with the C64, making spreadsheets is just one of those.
I just said that using it only for games would have been a stupid choice when you could have a NES for that.

Looking back at just a games perspective, it's clear the NES was better for gaming. However, being a little boy in the 80's from a fairly poor family, I had a choice of paying £40 for a new NES game or as little as £1.99 for a C64 game. You could also get games for free if you had a m8 with a copy of the game, and a blank cassette. Also, with the C64 you had the option to play game demos on magazine cover-tapes which you couldn't with the NES. Lastly, text based games, rpgs and anything else which was complex and needed a keyboard was a no-no for the NES. Basically it's like comparing apples and oranges, if I could have afforded it I would have bought both - anyone who loves games would have done.

Kids today don't know the pleasure of waiting FOREVER for a C64 game to load. Like, go make a sandwich and eat it while you wait.

>>2415770
>not having a fastloader in ROM and a parallel cable floppy mod
[spoilerMy dad installed it. I wouldn`t know about that at that time.[/spoiler]

>>2413885

I think that for a 1988 thing, arcade parts were pricey, also you have to consider it is a rare item that was only distributed in Spain.

>>2414283
you only had to flip them around

besides, it never came out in the US and a lot of its better games were ported to cartridge.

>>2415471
>I've read a bit about the history of the Amiga and have never heard anything about it being repurposed as a computer, and I doubt it would have even been possible.
What the hell are you talking about? that's EXACTLY what happened

>The Amiga's Original Chip Set was designed by a small company called Amiga Corporation during the end of the first home video game boom. Wary of industrial espionage, the developers codenamed the chipset "Lorraine" during development. Development of the Lorraine project was done using a Sage IV (m68k/8 MHz/1MB) machine, nicknamed "Agony".[1] Amiga Corp. funded the development of the Lorraine by manufacturing game controllers, and later an initial bridge loan from Atari Inc. while seeking further investors. The chipset was to be used in a video game machine, but following the video game crash of 1983, the Lorraine was repurposed to be a multi-tasking multi-media personal computer.
It wouldn't have been good for Japanese COMPUTING due to it's low resolution unless run in monochrome and the aforementioned competition but it would have certainly curbstomped the video game industry as nobody else had anything else comparable for quite a long time even on the arcade front, pic related.

Ultima!

I'd say that while (if used by professionals) C64 had better music, the NES had better games in the end. But I think we should rather discus the best 8-bit computer and why is it the Atari ST?

>>2413885
you should be able to get that for half that price

>>2418778
Because it has 64 bits. Do the math.

>objectively

52 colors > 16 colors. 320x240 > 160x200.

>>2421173
And the SID chip blew the fuck out of the NES.

>>2410650
if you like mud palettes

>>2413728
literally blind