/vr/ - Retro Games

GI Joe

Darklands is really amazing for it's time and was the main inspiration for Daggerfall and Baldur's Gate.

>>2347065
I want to play this but i don't want my game to freeze or fuck up something by accident (something not appearing or getting stuck in a dungeon with no exit).

Any tips?

>>2347090
Install latest patch (2.13)? Use the six available savegames? I always have one "level up" save game, one before I accept a quest and two for saving during the quest. The other two have various purposes. That way you'll loose your progress only for that quest in the worst case. And tbh I had only relatively few bugged quest when playing the patched version.

Every fucking RPG thread you faggots come out of the woodwork.
Fuck off with your shitty game. Let's all settle once and for all why Daggerfall is a shit game so we don't have to hear these daggerfags talk about their shitty game anymore.

>shit dungeons
Every fucking dungeon is built like a labrynth. This makes finding quest objectives too hard and tedious. If I wanted to solve a fucking maze I could have just gone and bought a puzzle book.

>towns are too big
What's that? You want to get to the mages guild to take a quest? Have fun walking 5 goddamn minutes all the way from the city gates.

>secret passages are too hard to find
I once go a shitty quest where I had to kill some faggot ass mage. I walked around the dungeon for fucking hours until I gave up and used a cheat to warp to objective points. The shitty cell had no path to the main dungeon, and it turns out I had to click on a stupid torch just to open up a path.

>quests are timed
Shitty feature. If you take too long doing a quest you automatically fail. This means you can't take up a bunch of quests and put some off for later like Skyrim does.

>gold and arrows are weighted
Good luck looting dungeons.

>fast travel costs TIME and money
At least in Skyrim, quests didn't have time limits, and map travel doesn't cost you a single coin.

>npcs don't give you quests if they hate you or if you have low reputation

>houses and boats cost hundreds of thousands of gold
That's just fucking retarded.

>too many equipment slots ruin balance
You can enchant items with multiple effects, and you have like 12 equipment slots of clothing and armor. And that's not counting jewelry.

>some quests actually give you negative reputation towards other factions

>graphics are shit

>physics is shit
You can't even look and move while in the air.

>bugs

TL:DR
Daggerfall sucks.

>>2347113


People are just talking about a game they like.
Can't you pass on and leave things you don't like to people that appreciate them ?
I guess not.

>>2347065
I want to like Daggerfall but I just can't get over how it looks. Not that the graphics are bad. It just seems too damn primitive considering the genre it is. I guess maybe it's a bit of a bias since I started on Morrowind like so many others. The game also has numerous bugs that put me off wanting to try it.

How is that Daggefall X coming along? I can see myself liking Daggerfall if it had a huge overhaul/remake with maybe some improved looking combat.

Why is this thread only full of WRPGS? They suck.

>>2347129
>Why is this thread only full of WRPGS?
They're the only good rpgs, for one thing

>>2347113
>Why is a game from 1996 not as convenient as a game from 2011?
Enjoy your unfailable quests and walk-towards-marker gameplay.

>>2347135
I honestly don't see how quest markers for a huge open world RPG such as TES is a problem. In fact I would argue Daggerfall would benefit from it considering the old graphics.

Please. /vr/ please

Stop becoming more like /v/. This place was a haven for me. But it's slowly slipping into nothing but flames and bullshit. It makes me so sad

>>2347113

> dungeons are actually challenging and not just a long corridor you walk through to get to the quest objective

Git gud scroobmcnoob

> towns are too big
You mean just like towns are too big in real life?
Before mobile Internet I had to use a map or ask pedestrians. In the game the characters with etiquette and streetwise can really come into play that way. Dismissed.

> secret passages are hard to find
That's because they're secret. Dipshit.

> quests are timed
Please help me the vampires are gonna kill me tonight!
Imagine that quest with no time limit. There's no need to complete it because the quest giver is only in danger once you decide to show up at his house.

> gold and arrows are weighted
Sucks. But on the other hand how come armour, weapons and magic artefacts weigh a lot but not 20.000 gold pieces?

> fast travel costs TIME and money
They cost time because it takes time to go from A to B. You still need to buy food or rent a place to rest on the way, therefore it costs gold. When you chose to travel recklessly, costs are dropped significantly

> npcs dont give you quests if they hate you or if you have low reputation
Logically sound.
"Hey you! I hate your guts, but I will offer you this task that holds rich rewards when you complete it." It's this kind of hack writing that makes games like Skyrim look like shit. Quest givers hate you and at the same time offer you jobs. If you walked into a job interview, realised its the guy whose wife you just got done railing, would he give you that job? Fuck no.

> houses and boats cost hundres of thousands of gold
> expensive things are expensive!

Oh boo hoo. What do you think a house should cost? 5 gold? And a war galeon maybe 10?

That's some of the worst reasoning why a game sucks I've seen in a long time

Here's your reply.

Stop whining and talk about old rpgs, you peasants.

>>2347141

And it's not even related to the 6th gen, like many retrofags said in past threads.

>>2347146
>peasants

Please stop using this word, nowadays is being used as a buzzword by the worst sections of 4chan.

>>2347148
Shut your peasant mouth unless it's about old rpgs!

>>2347146
How did you guys like Fallout 1?

It's the only Fallout I played so far.

>>2347128
you mean DaggerXL?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Qu0-j5vzf4

>try to look it up
>site expired

>>2347176
It's my favourite Fallout.
Certainly has the best atmosphere in the series.
Fallout 2 fixed most of the flaws and is way bigger but felt a bit dull.

>>2347195
Fallout 2 has way more flaws, it didn't fix anything.

>>2347235
Inventory screen is a little better, more skills are useful

>>2347235
Follower control is much better as well as character development and perk variety.

>>2347074

I really want to play this but I always barely get past the party creation

>>2347235

Fallout 2 has a car

I'll nominate SaGa Frontier 1 for interesting. Had some really neat concepts.

Also Pinball Quest is Pinball+RPG. It's a little more fun than it sounds.

>>2347113
That stupid copypasta again.

While I can understand some points (secret passages, itchy physics), others are reasons why i LIKE the game. Imho it's good that the towns are large, they give you the feel of being in an actual large settlement with some traces of the modern "urban anonymity". It's just weird when in the later games even the supposedly gigantic capitals are smaller than the average village. The illusion lasts for a while if you go with it, but especially after playing Daggerfall I have trouble imagining Whiterun as a huge city when it's actually 10 houses and a house on a rock.

... I don't have the time to reply to all of those points, probably you're just a troll anyway.

@Topic:
General suggestions are the older Final Fantasy games, and, in case it counts as "retro"/olde Gothic I and II.

>>2347194
The expired site is the old one.

The new one: xlengine.com

However the project is on hiatus at the moment, as the developer Lucius has too much to do with job and family. However I've heard he is still interested in finishing the project whenever he can devote reasonable amounts of time to the development.

Though the modding community and a similar fan project Daggerfall-Unity are actively discussed at the forum.

>>2347560
Projects like that should be open source.
I've seen so many interesting projects die because people lose interest or lack time before they are finished but are still too greedy for e-fame to pass the project on.

>>2347560
>Daggerfall-Unity

I think that at the end this remake will prevail.
Even if only for the fact you can mod it from hell and back just like morrowind.

>>2347065
Utima 7 is STILL the pinnacle of the genre and possibly the greatest game of all time.

>>2347572
It's extremely active at the moment. I think there's only 1 person who is steadily working on "Daggerfall in the Unity engine" though. The rest are just working to make the tools better and stuff like multiplayer which I don't give a shit about but it's cool.

>>2347570
I don't think it has much to do with "e-fame". From what I understood from Lucius' posts the current development build is not in a very release-able state. He worked on re-writing most of the original binary in C after de-assembling the original binary with the DosBox debugger at last, and I think only a handful of people are even able to proceed doing that. I'm not a good coder, but I understand roughly what he does and shudder at the amount of brain-work it requires.

Afaik his plans were to make most of the engine - including at least all game-specific code and some of the engine itself - open-source once he hits beta state.

>>2347572
It might prevail, at least if DaggerXL doesn't have significant progress within the foreseeable future.

>>2347579

Is that you Lord British?

You blow

>>2347560
huh, but that site is also expired. but then again as you said is on hiatus, so eh.

>>2347074
I wonder why nobody's doing a remake of this, particularly with the bugs ironed out, some balancing, and better graphics.

>>2347074
I still own the floppy disk set with map and all. Best DOS game ever.

If you want a Retro first person ARPG and Daggerfall isn't polished enough to suit you, play Ultima Underworld instead. This is something that should have been established in the first few posts unfortunately things around here aren't like they used to be and a lot of us grandpas who spent every minute lurking here 2 years ago only check once a day or less now.

I always find it funny how people point out that Daggerfall is riddled with bugs
since with most crpgs of that time you're lucky they're actually playable.

Like Descent to Undermountain.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4E0cgnUYxo

>>2347140
>Wait is this guy in Room A or Room B?
>Check both
>Room B has two zombies and a enchanted shield
>The ehnchanted shield helps me kill the guy in Room A

>Markers
>Walk
>Kill guy
>Get reward

Markers DESTROY the exploration element on a RPG, and the TES saga is (Suposedly) all about discovering the world

>>2348475
My wife's favorite non-mobile video game is Fable 2 because it doesn't just have markers, it has a golden path to directly follow. She gets lost even with map markers.

>>2347113

>high degree of difficulty
>realistic landscapes/physics
>life-like, reactive NPCs
>reasonable economics

Never wanted to play this before and kinda do. Kinda really do.

>>2348475
I think markers should be present, but more of a general area indicator, and not a direct go here do quest repeat thing.

More like a mental note that the NPC told you it's to the northwest of (landmark), and maybe notes automatically added as you discover things.

Not so much for immediate help or immersion, but when you go on a gameplay hiatus and return you'll have stuff to jog your memory.

And the modern iteration of "rewarding exploration" (always go away from the quest marker, because there's loot!) could be improved on a lot without dramatic changes, more story/difficulty incentive or randomness could be neat.

>>2347579
so close

>>2349725
Pic related.

>>2347140
lol I bet you use GPS irl ;)

Daggerfall all day erry day.

I'm playing Baldur's Gate for the first time right now and guuuuuuuuh, it's sooooo gooooood. The world feels so big, the pacing of the game makes me feel like i'm really on this long adventure, ALL THESE PARTY CHARACTERS it's really making me want to do a party perma-death run after I finish. My only real gripe is the dialogue options are really bad. There was an instance in the cloakwood forest where some druids were punishing a hunter for killing a fellow druid in his animal form and you have to pick a side for the fight, and the dialogue option for taking the hunters side was you trying to compel the druids to change their minds, but if you take the druids side you make some weird joke about the druids having a smell of aloe-vera and how that makes you want to side with them. Just...not a great line of dialogue. And there's a lot of moments where you have two drastic extremes of character. I hear two is much better though. I'm very excited.

>>2350560
Have fun anon. Believe it or not, pretty much every other IE game is even better, so you'll have even more fun.

>>2347113
the fact that someone takes time out of their evening to post this copy pasta raging against Daggerfall, of ALL THINGS, always cracks me up. Someone's so angry that other people like daggerfall, and wants to evangelize their message of "daggerfall sucks" so bad, that they literally keep a text file of copy pasta of reasons to not like the game.

as if someone would read it and go, THANKS BRO, I DIDNT PLAY IT AND I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT ITS LIKE, I'M GLAD I KNOW I DON'T LIKE IT BECAUSE I DIDN'T PLAY IT!

shit cracks me the fuck up, every.fucking.time.

Realms of Arkania: Star Trail.

Really awesome for it's tme.

>>2348340
That's odd, the site works for me. And the forum is still up as well.

http://xlengine.com/
http://xlengine.com/forums/

>>2350560
BG2 is more polished but lacks the sense of exploration BG1 has since you can only fast-travel between areas that people mark on your map with random encounters inbetween and once you progress the mainquest you can't go back.

The Icewind Dales are mainly centered around combat.

If you're looking for good dialogue and story try Planescape Torment.

>>2347431
Once you got used to the controls it playes smoothly.
The manual is a big help here.

You usually start earning reputation by killing robbers in the cities at night and money by selling their loot.
Once you've grasped how the combat works and your group is a little more experienced you can attempt to tackle your first robber baron in his tower around the cities. Just make sure to check all surronding cities to get all the bounties for him.

From there on you can seek out more robber knights, look for villages to set on fire to end their satanic cult activties, hunt witches and finally go on your frst demon or even dragon hunt.

If you don't mind the repetition it's really worth it.

>>2350607
>literally keep a text file of copy pasta
archives exist you know

>>2347176
I liked Fallout 1 more than Fallout 2. By a lot.

I agree with:
>>2347195
here, he understands. Original Fallout had much better atmosphere, much better post apocalyptic feel, much better, I don't know, rotting Chernobyl feel too. Fallout (original Fallout) has such a unique vibe to me I can't easily put into words. F1 and F2 are the inverted version of the KOTOR series; F2 and Kotor1 are pretty well put together games with a fairly uninspired story and only moderate character depth (if that). KOTOR2 and F1 both have a much better feel, and a much more personal feel; they have more depth and overall less scope (though the scope of each is ultimately epic, it's just not the focus of the game's tone throughout).

I'm rambling. I loved KOTOR2 and am just looking for an excuse to plug it I think. My subconscious desires betray me again

>>2347195
I want Fallout 1 with Fallout 2's mechanics like the unarmed combat divided into punches and kicks and its leveling system, the team control screen and being able to transfer all items at once.

Is this available somewhere?

>>2350774
Actually PST is the only one I've played for a significant amount of time. I didn't finish it because my computer died somewhere around Ravels Maze, I didn't enter it if I recall correctly. I'm super excited to make my way back around to that game though. It was really an incredible experience and I've avoided spoiling the ending for myself all this time.

>>2350931
There was a project to port Fallout 1 into Fallout 2's engine but I don't know if it was ever completed.

>>2350879
This may be unrelated to the thread, but I might as well ask. Do you need to play KOTOR1 to enjoy KOTOR2? I've played the first one, but I didn't enjoy it all that much. I've always heard that the sequel has much better writing and a more interesting look at jedi and the force that isn't so boringly black and white.

>>2351296
I wouldn't call their look at the jedi in the first game black and white at all, but to answer your question I didn't really think KOTOR 2 relied too heavily on the events of KOTOR 1. Just saying though, I played KOTOR 2 right after KOTOR 1 and didn't enjoy it as much...but that is just me. I hear that's not really the general opinion.

>>2351301
Kreia is the most interesting thing that's come out of Star Wars since Empire Strikes Back.

>>2349890
>I think markers should be present, but more of a general area indicator, and not a direct go here do quest repeat thing.
>More like a mental note that the NPC told you it's to the northwest of (landmark), and maybe notes automatically added as you discover things.
I thought Morrowind's journal was a fantastic middle road between markers and no guidance whatsoever. That way even if I pick up the game after six months, I can look at my journal and think, "Oh I'm looking for Azura's Star and it's roughly north of XYZ" but I still have to bust my ass to actually find the thing.

>>2351303
Yeah she was actually the most compelling part of the game to me. But the general bugginess of the game frustrated me and I don't remember being particularly captured by any other part of the story than the mystery of Kreia's past and motives. I remember there was a conversation I had with a jedi lady not too far into the game and it just kept looping and looping and the animations would freeze sometimes and it was just really weird to have a glitch that was that bad REALLY early on in a game. It seems like something you'd find towards the end because they ran out of time to polish the endgame. I don't know the story behind why it's like this, but KOTOR 2 is a game where I experienced about every bug you could get.

>>2351310
You should give it a shot again with the fan restoration patch, I played KOTOR 2 a few months ago for the first time and didn't notice any bugs, although the swoop racing was broken. But I had a fantastic time with it, I'd say it's worth revisiting to play without bugs and to see some of the cut content.

>>2347113
Can you believe that its my favorite of all time?

>>2347090
If you're not using this, use it :http://wiwiki.wiwiland.net/index.php/Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN

If you're stuck in a dungeon, save and load then press Ctrl+F11

>>2347195
Have you ever play Fonline?

>>2351391
Isn't that a niggerland where everyone kills everyone for the sake of being le trolle?

>>2347113
You're on the wrong board, edgelord

>>2351391
>Fonline?
I forgot that even came out.

>>2351413
>everyone kills everyone for the sake of being le trolle
This is literally the basis for the MMO genre. Read up on Ultima Online and get back to us.

>>2351358
Yeah I planned on it after enough time has passed. It's possible I was also just exhausted from KOTOR 1 since I played them back to back.

>>2351413
It wasn't really like that. The asshole population was high but you could often find total bros. Sure, the chance of getting steamrolled by random travellers was very high, but getting good wasn't hard at all, so you could gear up and kick some serious ass. I miss the /v/ guild times I've had.

>>2351413
YES! And I freaking love it!

>>2351439
Still waiting for wipe and balance.

>>2351441
I've never been much of a pvp guy, really. It's not that I am afraid of conflict, and if the game has something like a duel system I am all for it, but I am too much of a nice guy to attack others at random so it puts me in something of a disadventage.
A short while ago a friend of mine joked that on Coop I'll be a estrategist and kick ass, but in pvp I am like a marshmellow in an ant hive.
I miss my old Diablo II coop games. I'd play as the assasin (My favorite class) while my friend played as negromancer, and I'd explode the living and then he'd explode that dead. Nice times.

>>2351441
>Read up on Ultima Online and get back to us.
It will never not be fucking hilarious that someone murdered Lord British when he showed up in-game.

>>2347560
Lucius is a faggot. He said "expect a playable beta around Christmas with all the features of the original game" in like September 2012, that means that at the time he thought he'd only need around 3 months of work to get it out. No matter how much work and family shit has gotten in the way the fact that it's not out yet just means it's pure vaporware and will probably never be released because he got bored of it. You guys need to stop getting your hopes up. DaggerXL is NOT coming. End of.

>>2347113
>Starts mentioning Skyrimjob
You had me until there anon

>>2351307
morrowind is by far my favorite for that and a few other reasons. It doesn't hold your hand, it doesn't intentionally kick dirt in your face, it has exploration,challenge, cerebral gameplay, action, well rounded and fleshed out story... I do wish I could have morrowind with voice acting and modern graphics, but I'll take the story/exploration over flashy shit any day

>>2347113
I think /v/ is calling you guy. Dinner's ready.

Is there anyone here who thinks Baldur's Gate 1 is better than 2?

>>2354571
Yeah. i prefer 1 because narrative, more interconnected areas and being a low level adventure.

>>2354839
I like the narrative but particularly the dialogue options of the player character I thought were always bad and I have no idea why it was so drastically different in quality from everyone else. The player character constantly had options to make shitty puns and jokes or you'd have bipolar options like in Candlekeep when you get attacked in a room and when someone asks what's wrong you can either lie about the whole thing or bawl about it like a baby. It was very...odd.

>>2354916
Well, what do you expect? in the end Baldur's Gate it's still a Bioware game.

>>2347113

>secret passages are too hard to find
>gold and arrows are weighted
>fast travel costs TIME and money
>npcs don't give you quests if they hate you or if you have low reputation
>some quests actually give you negative reputation towards other factions

I don't even like Daggerfall but those are some retarded complaints for a CRPG.

>>2354916
Your character was had to kill a man for the first time in their life.
What dialogue choice did you expect?
"Oh it was nothing, friend. I was merely attacked by some stranger and used my dagger to scrape him out like a hollow gourd."?

>>2355248
I guess Planescape spoiled me for dialogue choice. The drastic difference between "Lie about it" or "Waaaaaah" just strikes me as odd. I feel like i'd react somewhere in the middle. "I've just been attacked, does this have something to do with Gorion's strange behavior?".

>>2355584
Your choice would be terribly out of place since it's just indifferent.

Those two choices you get are actually very reasonable considering what a sheltered life your character had and how inexperienced he is.

>>2350560
I'm in the same boat. Never gave the Infinity Engine games a look because back then I was very unfamiliar with D&D and it always seemed so overwhelming. Probably about halfway through BG1 right now and it's been such a blast. Took a bit to get the hang of some of the mechanics - in particular who magic and resting works, and learning to be a bit more strategic with my spells than in other RPGs - now I'm just enjoying the ride.

Although technically I'm playing the EE version, because it was gifted to me on Steam awhile back. I've heard that the original versions with mods are better than EE, so I might go back and replay the original first game when I finish EE then move onto the original version of BG2. GoG has a nice modding guide up for it. Speaking of GoG, picked up their whole bundle of D&D games for $20 the other day, so looking forward to playing through all of them eventually.

>>2355885
If you play them modded, you aren't really playing the "original" game. Once you master the originals, check out mods, though, sure. Mainly the hard type ones.

I don't know much about GoG, but do they have all the D&D games? SSI's games range from playable to great. Hundreds of hours of D&D there.

>>2355897
Well by modded I just mean the mods that put in cut content and bugfixes, and the mod that puts BG1 and 2 together so you play through them seamlessly. But we'll see. I'm too invested in my EE playthrough now to just abandon it.

>>2355595
Fuck you, you're a bhaalspawn. Maybe you never really cared about anyone in the first place. You should act any way you like.
That guy is right, it has poor dialogue choices.

>>2356019
>I want to be a ̶d̶̶r̶̶a̶̶g̶̶o̶̶n̶ bhaalspawn!

>>2351923
Source?
Sure, it has been suspiciously quiet on his side, but so far there are reasons covering it.

However I've stopped following the project as actively as before, I also stopped hoping for updates any time soon. But I still have hope that things will be moving at some point, whenever that may be.

>>2354916
>>2355248
>>2355584
>>2355595
>>2356019
playing bg and bg2 again recently the big issue ive noticed is that ultimately, what you say doesn't matter, the NPC response is exactly the same, either changing the subject slightly or continuing on to a more important point. it doesn't make the game bad, but its a little annoying, and it makes me wonder how some people get so much replay out of these games

>>2356787
Personally I think the replay value comes more from the amount of characters you can pick up and the ever-lingering dare to do a perma-death run (at least as far as party is concerned).
And I think Bioware noticed the lackluster dialogue options because a) they made planescape torment not long after and b) BG2 has WAAAAAY better dialogue.

>>2356791
Bioware didn't make Torment, and the reason that none of it matters is because the game is an homage to the goldbox games that the developers enjoyed. Those don't have dialog that "matters" anyhow.

As for replay value, the point of playing these sort of games is to try out different fun builds and strategies. Certainly more replay value that clicking a different sentence in a textbox and having an NPC respond to it. Torment has virtually no replay value at all.

>>2356791
>Bioware noticed the lackluster dialogue options because a) they made planescape torment not long after

>>2356797
>>2356802
I meant black isle. My bad.

Did /vr/ like the BG Enhanced Editions? Did they ruin anything about the game? They look pretty faithful from video.

>>2356791
You're kidding, right? BG2 had awful, cringeworthy dialogue.

>>2357098
They're the aame game though the added a few new things like some optional bew companions. They also included some content that was originally cut. The big problem with EE at launch was it had even more bugs than the original. It has since been fixed and now they're fine games.

Icewind Dale EE seems to be much less buggy at launch than the BG EE games were.

>>2347065
definitely not Daggerfall with its design flaws.
gonna say Betrayal at Krondor and Wizardry 7.

>>2357102
like what? seriously asking here.

>>2357102
I have literally never heard anyone say this.

>>2357471
exactly. It's a pretty weird claim to make.

>>2357471
>>2357472
It is really run of the mill. And even good when compared to Bioware from KotOR on. I don't see why anyone would "cringe" at it.

>>2357102
This only ever gets said by people who have never played the game for more than a few hours or someone complaining about Aerie/Nalia/Haer/Anomen/Imoen being annoying. Yeah they aren't perfect, they're well rounded characters and have flaws. Plus there is always an option to tell them to shut the fuck every time they have banter with Charname.

>>2357478
I thought Imoen was annoying but she gets swiped away after the opening dungeon so whatever.

>>2356803
Baldur's Gate and Torment were made by different people.
Bioware games still have awful dialogue, even today.

>>2357738
To be fair, that pic is generally what conversation with my wife is like.

>>2357738
Completely irrelevant, since Baldur's Gate and whatever Dragon Age game that is were written by different people.

>>2357752
That's also true, not even present Bioware has much to do with old Bioware.
But somehow the awful dialogue remains.
I still like Baldur's Gate 1 narrative though.

This game. Man, I loved this game. It's got an engaging story, multiple things you can do, a fine arabian nights flair and in that day it was fairly rare to find a rpg on the pc that was not first person.

Guys pls.

DnD games always have stupid dialogue because it's generic fantasy crap.
They're no worse than the average fantasy novel.
They're about fighting mounstrous monsters in dank dungeons so what do you even expect?

Planescape Torment is different because the narrative and dialogue is the main focus and you play a well developed fixed character instead of "muh elf paladin waifu".

But they also weren't written by the same people.
For Torment they obviously hired a better writer.

Personally I never really understood why people celebrate Baldur's Gate so much.
I think they're pretty average at best.

>>2357467
I love Daggerfall but those two games are excellent as well. Betrayal at Krondor was the first rpg I ever played to completion!

>>2355897
Sadly they can't get the rights to the SSI Goldbox games, Ubisoft has some copyright too, so getting Hasbro and them to give the rights to GoG for rerelease just isn't going to happen.

>>2357954
A generic chilche setting does not mean you can't have well developed and interesting characters.

>>2358180
I'm talking about player characters.

Why does M&M 6 never get any love in these threads? enormous game, goat dungeons, goat paperdolls.

>>2358225
Being enormous isn't really an advantage.

>>2358126
>Betrayal at Krondor
Fuck yeah, boys.

>>2354571
christ no.

>>2354916
BG1 is literally Candlekeep - High School Edition.

every companion is either at level 1 or 2-4.
so interactions and banter were mostly very random, jovial and all over the place and you can't take them so seriously. still once you reach Sarevok shit gets really damn crazy and dangerous.

the exploration is pointless mostly and you just run around trying to find an adventure. pretty reminiscent of childhood and adolescence, really. but that's why BG1 is also special to me.

>>2358496
Candlekeep High School Edition?
I don't really understand that joke...

>>2347065
I love daggerfall so much that I though of making a tabletop rp version. When I carried it out I actually ended up liking more the rp that I made than the original game because I ended up fixing most of its original flaws like this motherfucker says>>2347113

>shit dungeons
made beforehand by me and not randomly generated
>towns are too big
see above
>secret passages too hard to find
see above
>quests are timed
not fixed this, this is important to prevent loligagging
>Gold and arrows are weighted
not fixed this, arrows have a huge chance not to break and this encourages the player to make clever economical management instead of carrying one million gold one oneself.
>fast travel costs time and money
duh, it only makes sense that you need travel expenses
>npcs don't give talk to you if they hate you
duh
>houses and boats costs thousands of gold
>that's retarded
no it isn't?
>too many equipment slots
first time in my life I ever heard that complain or even suggesting that such a thing is bad. Considering how fucking hard it is to get enchanted equipment
>some quests give you negative reputation with other factions
>it is bad thing to plan ahead
>it doesn't make sense that the mages guild get angry if your quest is to steal from them

>graphics are shit
fuck off of /vr/

>physics are shit
it's a tabletop rp, that thing is fixed

>bugs
fixed

>>2349787
however, as much as I love the game, I have a legit complaint and that is how unbalaced it is, I would even go as far as to say that Arena, the previous game, was more balanced than daggerfall because of how magic came to work

In daggerfall, magic is completely necessary to a point that not playing a mage cripples you completely and you end up having no fun, however a single spell drains your entire magicka pool, a single spell, and magic restoration potions became really hard to come by and really expensive, so you will never rely on magic for combat unless you do some cheap shit like creating a character that absorbs magic and shooting fireballs at yourself.

So you end up creating a completely powerbeast character with the custom creator, a character that can wear the heaviest armor, use the best weapons and has intx3 magic (otherwise you won't be able to cast a single spell before running out) and that kills the roleplaying.

Arena was bad in many ways, but when it came to playing I believe it was more balanced because it didn't have skills and you leveled up the traditional way (exp points), and no reliance on skills meant that you could use weapons without fear of missing like in morrowind (you still miss, but very little in comparison to daggerfall if you don't have the weapon skill) and magic costs are very low (not to mention magic and healing potions are cheap and easy to amass)

Still, Daggerfall is overall better because the gameplay is swifter and more intuitive, it is the kind of thing you can't explain save "you must try it yourself"

>>2358574
and I don't care if you don't. too bad.

>>2358621
Wow, you're a cool guy.

>>2358143

How's Eye of the Beholder II? I picked it up CiB at a thrift store a while back, but haven't bothered installing it yet.

>>2358610
I finished the game as a thief, fighting barehanded without learning any spells.
Granted though I was lucky in that I found a ring that has the mark/recall spell and late in the game another with levitate, which are the only two spells that are needed to complete the game.

>>2358736
impressive I must say

>>2358736
>barehanded
God damn, anon. That's awesome. I also played through with a no-magic stealthy character, though I used short blades and bows. I didn't need Levitate much since in the areas it's required there's almost always some object to activate that will buff you with it temporarily. I also never used Recall once by any means, instead using notes on the dungeon map like pic related to not get lost.

But the one effect I absolutely could not live without was Free Action. Free Action potions are fairly abundant and cheap at temples, so that + a handful of Levitate and Slowfall potions is how I managed.

>>2358752
>>2358780
Barehanded is actually pretty good because it can hurt any creature so you don't need magic weapons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNpzOVp3JYU

>>2358621

What's a good RPG to actually roleplay?

>>2358876
Pen & Paper

>>2351358
Even with the restored content, KOTOR2 is an empty shell, full of reused assets and missed opportunities. The only part significantly complete is the MC's journey and his relationship with Avellone's mouth-place about Star Wars, or better, Kreia.

>>2358852
I like that comic.

>>2358852
Oh fuck forgot there was a name there.

>>2358923
I already do that

I'm seeking for videogames as well

>>2359686
There aren't any because videogames can't actually be roleplaying games since they are always nonreactive.

Rpgs are just action or strategy adventure games.

The only way to roleplay in videogames is in online games with other real people.

>>2360452
You can roleplay by yourself, like people usually do with games like Daggerfall.
Emergent narrative and that shit.

>>2360470
Sure, you you can talk to the sprites but they're not going to respond.

I do try to immerse myself in games by for example closing doors behind me or wearing armor that might not be the most effective choice but that looks nice or fits my character but ultimately this simply isn't roleplaying.

Actually, there really is one game in which you can roleplay.
Vampire the Masquerade Redemption since it has a multiplayer mode in which a game master can run sessions.

>>2360517
There's also Neverwinter.

And games like Fallout and Arcanum have roleplaying options, even if it's just through scripted dialogue.

>>2354571
Me too.

>>2347431
>>2350779
Josh Sawyer (of Obsidian) did a pretty good writeup of how to get started in Darklands, without spoiling too much or spoonfeeding you.
http://new.spring.me/#!/JESawyer/q/397200703396805909

It was originally on Somethingawful with pictures/better formatting, but I'm having trouble finding it.

>>2360517
>I do try to immerse myself in games by for example closing doors behind me or wearing armor that might not be the most effective choice but that looks nice or fits my character but ultimately this simply isn't roleplaying.

Making choices based on your character's personality is absolutely roleplaying. Your example of picking gear that you think your character would like is a pretty minor example, but there are a lot of other ways to roleplay like through moral choices or scripted dialogues.

If you really want then sure you can use an artificially narrow definition of "roleplaying" (that nobody else uses, btw) just to specifically exclude single-player games, but that would be pointless.

>>2360741
Is there any pen&paper game that I won't need to read a bible to understand?
It's not for the lenght itself, I have a shit ton of free time, but because I have a shit tier memory when it comes to numbers and would need to play with the manual in hand.
I want to make a spear wielding ninja that uses his weapon to perform acrobatics, or a ninja cat that goes hand to hand and allways targets for the groin.

>>2358596
POST
IT

>>2347113
I've never played it, and apparently this is highly amusing copy pasta, but all of those reasons the troll mentioned make me really want to play the game now. Where can I download this? It sounds better than Skyrim and Oblivion.

>>2361027
There is a link in the uesp page, check the installation link or something like that.
Also check morrowind. It's the best game in terms of lore.

>>2357954
>what is rolelaying

>>2360769
This is more of a question for /tg/, but the short answer is yeah there are a lot of rules-lite roleplaying games. A lot of narrative based games like Dungeon World are pretty much "describe what you want your character to do, then roll to see if you succeed" (don't mention Dungeon World in /tg/ if you don't want to start a shitstorm though).

Plus in my experience even with games like D&D most people don't have the book open in their hand the whole time they play, you learn how to play from other people and just wing most of the rules as you go.

>>2361027
Bethesda released it for free, you can just google "Daggerfall download" and find links to get it running in Dosbox. It's hard to compare it to Skyrim and Oblivion because of its age, I'd say it's overall a better game but shows its age in terms of graphics and UI and stuff. Also the 3D randomly-generated dungeons are a fucking hellish nightmare to navigate.

>>2361027
I wouldn't recommend using the copy on the official website or from the Anthology. There's a lot of unofficial patches out there that the game sorely needs. Use:
http://wiwiki.wiwiland.net/?title=Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN

Just remember that if you want the vanilla experience but with all the fixes, be sure to not install DagSkills, which is a mod incorrectly listed as a bugfix. If you want to double the skill and attribute caps then feel free to use it.

>>2361983
>http://wiwiki.wiwiland.net/?title=Daggerfall_:_DaggerfallSetup_EN

gracias

>>2362361
Installed it and attempted playing. Pressing mouse 2 would not swing my weapon. (It was equipped) Killed by rat. Epic death burial scene and crow followed.

>>2362361
>>2361983
Installed it and attempted playing. Pressing mouse 2 would not swing my weapon (It was equipped). Killed by rat. Epic death burial scene and crow followed.

>>2354965
>>2357738
Bioware was good back then

>>2362429
That will only work for bows. For melee weapons you need to hold down the attack button and move the cursor to swing the weapon in the direction you moved it. You can keep it held down and continue swinging the cursor around to remain attacking in place.

Just don't do this.

>>2362494
Use your fists.

>>2362494
WOOOOOOOOOOOW
HOW WAS I SUPPOSED TO KNOW THAT MY WEAPON WASN'T WORKING??? NICE BUGGED GAME MECHANICS, BETHESDA HA HA HA

>>2347113
>Its too hard for me, therefore it sucks.
>Raising Skyrim to any standard

You've set no records straight, sir.

>>2362494

Not complaining about game mechanics, but how does that even work?

I mean, the imp can't be cut very effectively with the metal the axe is made of. Fair enough. But what happens to all that physical force behind the swing and poke? Does it just magically disappear due to weapon immunity? Or does the imp just kinda get slapped a little bit but not enough to hurt?

>>2362494
Swingin at shit and not hittin?
I can see where Morrowind got it from!

>>2362836
Magic, bro, magic.

Daggerfall has some quirks and oddities you need to know, otherwise it can be very frustrating. Probably the most stupid thing I've seen: A Youtube review where the reviewer (a fairly well known one imho) complained a lot about the controls but used cursor look. UGH.

So here I'll say it one more time:
YOU CAN SET UP THE GAME TO PLAY ALMOST LIKE OBLIVION. Use the settings, Luke...

>>2350478
why aren't you playing with mouse look

Betrayal at Krondor

Morrowind>Daggerfall>Skyrim>Arena>Oblivion

>>2363593
Skyrim>Morrowind>Oblivion>Daggerfall>Arena

only objective answer

>>2364364
Oblivion>Morrowind>Arena>Daggerfall>Skyrim>Oblivion

See, I can arrange games in a completely random order too. Hey, this is fun!

>>2347113
0/10

>>2347074
I've never heard of this game, how is it? Is it easy to get into?

>>2347176
It's the best game in the series despite its small size and short length.

>>2347434
Wasn't the car completely broken when the game came out? I remember reading something about a bug that made half the thing disappear making it impossible to use.

>>2347074
Fuck yeah, i still play this game occasionally.

>>2367012
It's one of those games that might utterly confuse you if you're not used to old rpgs or if you don't read the manual.

Some functions, like how you equip things, are not exactly self-explanatory and the character generation will probably just confuse you if you don't read up on it.

But it's less complicated than one might think.
Just give the manual and hintbook a quick look and you'll be fine.

It really is a wonderful game and there's nothing quite like it.
Although you could probably describe it as a hybrid between Daggerfall and Baldur's Gate.

>>2347113
all of the reasons you hate it are literally exactly the reasons why it's so great (except bugs obviously)

>>2363593
tes6 is gonna be the best

>>2369774
Only if the beast races stop being colorful humans and they give us spears again.
Maybe then I'll consider putting it besides Morrowind.

>>2365024
no. go away.

>>2349890
I think the Baldur's Gate and even the new Pillars of Eternity games do it perfect. They give you a detailed journal of every quest you do and where you need to go and even some exposition so if you put off the quest for a while, you can have a vague idea of what was happening. It's modern conveniences like markers that kill exploration and ruin immersion. You don't NEED a marker when you have something that tells you exactly where you need to go. Hell you get some quests that require a little detective work like trying to find an assassin or some shit, then the quest marker points you right to him and ruins the fun.

>>2370313
Stonekeep did it pretty well back in 1994. The player character kept a journal. That journal did not just include player stats, maps and found items, but it also contained the quest log. The quest log was written in the form of short comments and observations in first person. A quest could span several comments, which were added when the player progressed in the quest. I think the log even contained a comment on the resolution of a quest, once it was resolved. It was like a brief diary, like a player taking notes, without the gruntwork of getting out pen and paper.
You can see that "quest log" is actually in the notes section. The game would do some comments for you, but you're free to edit them, or add more info. It was just a friendly fallback, not a read-only thing.
That applies to all the other sections of the journal as well. For example when you picked up an item, the journal would automatically add the picture of the item, plus a brief phrase saying what it is (for example "a brown root"). The player still had the ability to add any info they discovered and considered useful. (say "heals wounds").

>>2370330
That's cool as shit. That's exactly what I'm talking about though. I know Daggerfall has problems with finding enemies in dungeons but the solution shouldn't be an arrow pointing you in the right direction. I just can't get immersed in Skyrim because you get all these quests, they don't really tell you exactly where you need to go so you just follow an arrow. How does your character know where to go? He can't see the arrow. It's little things like this that take away from the experience of a good adventure game. I'll take immersion over convenience any day.

>>2370458
I hear you. Arrows, markers, and even interactive maps (current location marked) kill exploration and immersion so badly, it's not even funny. To me that journal in Stonekeep was years, if not decades ahead. We have touch devices now, tablets and laptops. Where are our RPGs where we can work with a digital enhanced journal, that does the basically automatically, but you can add more data yourself at any time and everywhere? Even otherwise cool games like Legend of Grimrock don't get it. You only get simple mode (automap, drawn and with location), or hardcore more (no map, pick up your own paper). Where the hell is the tablet "Etrian Odyssey" mode, where you get quickly accessable grid paper to touch-draw your own map on, complete with the ability to annotate, cross reference and otherwise modify? I know it's not exactly /vr/ material, but the game does attempt to relate to the dungeon crawlers of the old times.
A word on the map: I'm cool with reasonably detailed maps of locations, but the difference between a "you are here" marker, and not having one, is about as huge as the one between an arrow and a quest log. With the marker you almost automatically start to play the game "in 2D". You navigate the map, instead of the world. Without though, you start to actually correlate map and world, and you rely on cues within the world. Landmarks, road signs, trails. You identify much more with the world and merely use the map as fallback.
You would think observations like that are "RPG 101" for devs, but it's been done wrong so very often, it's depressing.

>>2347065
I´d recommend "Lands of Lore 1".

Be sure to get the CD version for superior voice acting (e.g. Patrick Stewart).

Expect the following:
- nice cutscenes
- good voice acting
- good script/ well written party members
- really good atmosphere/good music
- challenging but not unfair gameplay

Can´t believe, nobody mentioned this gem, yet.

>>2370493
It may not be as popular, but Lands of Lore 2 is awesome too despite being a fundamentally different game.

>>2370942

so i've played through neverwinter, played through Baulders gate right when it first came out

is BG2 really worth checking out? would you guys play a fallout over BG2? or another game?

>>2371065
Baldur's Gate 2 is really good. As in, top 5 RPGs I've ever played good.

Fallout (the first one) is a much shorter game, though. We're talking 10 hours vs. 60+. So if you wanted a short and sweet adventure, versus a long epic one, that's the choice to make. It is completely solid and doesn't overstay its welcome or start to drag.

>>2370330
Just wanted to say how cool it is to see Stonekeep posted on here. What a great game. Maybe not on a gameplay level (design was just alright) but the voice acting, art design, and sound design for 1994 was pretty fucking good.

I lurk every once in a while but I never see anyone talking about Ultima 7. I'd really like to play it I have no problems playing older games it's just I lost my patience and my attention span is shit.

>>2357741

kek

>>2350879
I could never get into FO1. Didn't really feel like there was much atmosphere since most settlements came across as lifeless - by which I mean, lacking anything interesting to explore in terms of dialogue/ character/ lore. Plus, story and characters felt pretty shallow and under-developed for an RPG - or maybe just too generic. Post-apocalyptic Sauron wants to turn everyone into orcs - felt like a really uninspired use or the setting. Moral choices were by and large black and white too, from what I remember, with little in the way of grey areas. It's strange, FO3 always seemed like a far more faithful sequel to 1 than most /v/ posters would attest.

>>2371065
It's a massively overrated game with the shittiest implementation of DnD rules I've ever seen in a videogame.

>>2371065
>is BG2 really worth checking out?

if there is ANY D&D game worth checking out, it's BG2. holy fuck, this game is packed up to the brim with questlines, fun characters, stupid party banter, nice dialogue, nice artwork, artstyle, neat locations and one of the better narratives D&D has to offer.

playing it again right now. just entered Lavok's sphere, rolling a Fighter/Mage this time around.

this game was never overrated because it does so much more than any other DnD RPG.

>>2373616
>It's a massively overrated
Like that means anything

>>2347065
Fallout
Planescape: Torment
Arcanum

The Holy Trinity of Western cRPGs. I guess Arcanum and PST are kind of newish titles though.

Gothic games are also superior to TES games in almost every way by the way.

Other than that (older than that), I'd say Albion, Wizardry VII and Might and Magic VII are pretty interesting RPGs of olde. Although the last two are not that strong on the roleplay aspect (just dungeon crawlers with "choose a faction").

>>2373770
He's right though. If there is one old CRPG that screams overrated, it's BG2.

>horrible companions
>imbalanced classes
>black and white morality, very little depth
& most importantly, as he mentioned
>worst implementation of DnD rules ever
which is ironic, because of all the IE/DnD games, this is probably the one that would win the popularity contest.

>>2347113
>shit dungeons
Somewhat. The layout for some unbearably bad but I generally didn't have huge problems with the rescue/fetch quests. In the King of Worms one I actually got trapped after jumping in the wrong coffin then saving.

>towns are too big
Agreed. In a medieval-themed RPG game the towns should not be massive. Larger than most games would be okay, but the sheer size and repetition of cities in Daggerfall is stupid.

>secret passages are hard to find
Sometimes, but usually I could find them on my own.

>quests are timed
Debatable. This discourages free roaming/exploration but it forces you to actually commit to the quests.

>gold and arrows are weighted
Gold being weighted is kind of dumb but just trying to be realistic. Arrows were weighted in all TES games so I don't see your point. I usually play a monk-type unarmed character so I require neither.

>Fast travel costs time and money
Not a huge problem, so what? It's not that expensive and it doesn't take too long considering how huge the world is.

>npcs don't give you quests if you hate you or have low reputation
Not exclusive to Daggerfall but it could have been toned down a bit

>houses and boats cost hundreds of thousands of gold
It's not that bad when you get huge amounts of gold on this game. If you get a wagon you can carry a lot.

>Graphics are shit
Yeah

>Physics are shit
Not bad, really

I rate Daggerfall a 6.5/10
>
>

>>2374402
Actually I would rate maybe a 8/10. 6.5/10 is too harsh.

>>2374405
his judgement seems correct saying it's 6.5/10 because all that random generated content results in an intolerable lack of art direction.

for example:

>some mage guilds have all these curious looking wall textures making you think it's not just some mage guild but a far more important place in the game
>some mages inside look crazy important as well and have sprites only special NPC should have
>some random ass enchanter standing inside looks like a 3000 year old cosmic warlock who should be the endboss instead

this is all exactly the reason why RNG content is not used in TES games anymore.

>>2357852
are those bosses?

>>2347142
you fucking destroyed him

>>2374493
I think the failing here is not taking into context the time at which DF was made. The scale of content was mind-boggling for the time, RNG or not, and while obviously obsoleted soon after, when the game came out, it was pretty intense. There ALWAYS felt like stuff to do, and the more you played, the more you felt the touch of designers, and less of the randomness.

You would find little quests you'd never found before, more unique areas (witch covens!), etc.

In context the game was pretty amazing.

>>2374493
>this is all exactly the reason why RNG content is not used in TES games anymore.
Congrats, you gave an example of bad procedural generation. Therefore all procedural generation is perpetually bad. That's a really bad fallacy. The goal, for any semi-interested developer, is to improve the automation itself, instead of discarding it entirely. Computers are doing a lot of things automatically now that used to be manual work. It does not have to be black and white either. Feed the system a manually created set of story arcs and character relations, but then let the automation work out the way they interact, for example. Or, to stick with what you call "RNG content" and its lack in modern TES games: most fauna is still procedurally placed, many aspects of the height map are procedurally generated, a lot of textures are procedurally generated, and it works extremely well. That's the kind of stuff computers are really damn good at, so why insist on letting humans waste their time with it?
Currently the best approach is to let a computer figure out the foundation, and then customize on top of it. Instead of specifying every single room in a house, give the computer architecture concepts and say "build me a hundred houses". Instead of placing every single rock, give the computer a crude Paint map and go "the blue ribbon's a river, make it one", and the computer will place water, fauna, rocks, maybe even wildlife, according to established (by biology, no less) rules. The opportunities are way too vast to just discard them as "RNG content sucks"

>>2374887
>fauna
>wildlife
derp, replace fauna with flora, then it checks out

>>2347146
What is this from

>>2374887
I want to add, the modern TES games paid for their lack of procedural generation with tiny lifeless worlds, where you think you maybe can "explore", but ultimately just follow the paths the devs put down for you, complete with directional arrows and achievements. DF was far from perfect, but unlike Oblivion or Skyrim, it was a bold experiment, an attempt to push beyond the boundaries of role playing. Oblivion and Skyrim are just cookie-cutter sandbox-y RPGs, assembled by interns with some random graphical editor and a script writer. Choreographed and staged, so you won't ever have to think yourself. DF meanwhile, with all its flaws, just pushed you into the pool, made you swim. It's an entirely different way of discovery, of roleplaying, when the world just is, instead of being made for you.
Mind you, DF is not the holy grail of RPG. There is a very strong motivation to have a good GM (if necessary the computer with a human-written script) and a tight narrative, as a kind of interactive take on books and stories. However, that is not, and should not be the only way to role play. A perfectly legimitate way, that DF explored, and later Bethesda games abandoned, is for a player character to just contribute to a world, in a meaningful way, to find their place in that world, maybe even break out of that place, and ultimately shape it.
It makes no sense for these games to have a tight railroading narrative, or huge amounts of human made assets, because an individual player will not see the vast majority of them, by design.
...

>>2374934
...
It makes a lot of sense for these games though to feature an engine that's able to deal with the actions of the player, even if they are not entirely expected by the developer. Yes, that is a lot of very ugly work. AIs need to be written, personality models devised, events need to propagate, the economy needs to be established, all NPCs need a purpose, instead of just standing around with an exclamation mark above their head. It's difficult, but not impossible, as another game named DF, Dwarf Fortress, demonstrates. That game, too, has a heap of problems of its own, no question. But underneath that shit pile, there's a vast procedural and flexible world, that not only wants to be explored, but actually handles being explored, and affected.

>>2374934
>>2374935
Developers seem so uninterested in making virtual worlds these days. Instead we get shallow set pieces. I hope I can make something like Daggerfall or Dwarf Fortress some day.

>>2373903
Being " Overrated" still doesn't mean shit.

>horrible companions
opinion

>>2373903
Sure, there's a ton of shit to complain about, like some of the stuff you mentioned. Or the God-awful pathfinding, some spotty voice acting and dialogue (except obviously Irenicus) "epic fantasy adventure" turning into boring-ass Harry Potter magic duels at mid-level (that's more D&D's fault than the game itself).

But somehow BG2 works out to be a lot better than the sum of its parts. I played through both BG1 and BG2 when they came out on Gog, having never played them in the day. So I can guarantee there's no nostalgia goggles here. They're just both great games (BG2 more so than BG1 admittedly).

I played both Baldur's Gate in 1999-2000, they're great games but another ones i played after, like Torment or Fallout, were just better.
I never understood that nostalgia thing since my first RPG was this thing, and precisely wasn't the best RPG ever.

>>2374887
>Therefore all procedural generation is perpetually bad. That's a really bad fallacy.
>RNG content sucks

I never said that. you're putting these words in my mouth because you misinterpreted what I meant from the get-go.

>>2375623
>this is all exactly the reason why RNG content is not used in TES games anymore.
This implies that RNG content can not improve, and especially not improve past manual creation. Otherwise, improving RNG and using the improved one would have been the rational choice.
That is, if Bethesda is still interested in actually creating large worlds. Otherwise it's just a paradigm change at the developer, and the removal of RNG is a natural consequence of that, that has nothing to do with its quality.

>>2375636
well, that is all true but you already know how big the gap of improvement is between old RNG content and the way it is done now in more modern games, going by all the examples you (?) have already listed ITT. so I don't even disagree with that.

I don't mind RNG content in something like HoMM3 and I just find that more tolerable the way it has been done as an end result than in Daggerfall (and boy have I seen some shitty ass HoMM3 RNG maps as well), even though I realize that the scope of both of these games is vastly different from each other.

I wouldn't claim Daggerfall wasn't a valid effort but going by today's standards I just pointed out what bugged me about it and that was mostly related to its own authenticity.

>>2375414
It's not an opinion when every single person who ever played BG2 agrees that characters like Jan Jansen or Anomen are annoying as fuck.

Just because you don't like the word "overrated" doesn't mean BG2 isn't just that. It is a good cRPG but hardly the best. However, people are overrating it, so it is always going to be mentioned the most as "best old school RPG ever made!!" every time. Almost always said by the same kind of people who think that Planescape: Torment is a "visual novel" or some garbage like that, when in fact PST is a better RPG in all the relevant terms (=choices & consequences). BG2 is bigger, has a better class selection and better combat. That's about it.

>>2375659
RPGs are about stats and management. Choices and story telling are adventure stuff.

>>2375658
imho procedural generation, especially for agents, is still in its infancy. You're still silently implying it should stay in the corner and do menial tasks, at most. Just in case it's a misinterpretation again: "I don't mind" to me means mere toleration, and while it's just my opinion, I strongly disagree with that stance. Procedural generation is so extremely powerful, though you mostly don't even notice when it's done well.

>I wouldn't claim Daggerfall wasn't a valid effort but going by today's standards I just pointed out what bugged me about it and that was mostly related to its own authenticity.
By modern procedural generation standard DF is utter shit, I'll be the first to admit that. Hell, even by the standards back then it was average at best. What set DF apart from all the rest is its scope, and as a result, its experimental nature. in my opinion RPGs have been kind of stuck, doing what's established, with only minor changes in the actual story (even the narrative mechanisms are establish, tired and old), so I'd love to see more games like DF. Even if they may end up as colossal failures, they pave the way towards better games, and that, to me, is more important than a dozen standard RPGs with awesomely well written characters, and the same interface we used since 1975.

>>2375665
That's the opinion of someone who has never played a tabletop RPG.

Sure, there's lots of stat management, but no one would play them if the game was nothing but number crunching.

>>2375659
>characters like Jan Jansen or Anomen are annoying as fuck.

that's your own and only your own subjective opinion.

>every single person who ever played BG2 agrees

no, prove it.
for example I don't agree. you already can't prove it.

people who played Skyrim also saying stupid shit like "hurr Cicero is annoying". what does that even mean? nothing whatsoever because you disliking a certain character has nothing to with the quality of how he was portrayed.

All voice actors did an excellent job. Jan and Anomen included. you could argue that the black and white mentality of the alignment system in BG2 is bad because nobody is inherently evil or good or any of that but it resulted in making the characters one-dimensional. that's more of a problem in D&D itself. that whole alignment system is retarded and only really helps the player to get an idea of the inner motivations of a player character in their short bio.

>>2375674
Tabletop RPGs are multiplayer games.
Number crunching is fun if you're playing solo, and that's why it works well for singleplayer games like videogame RPGs.

>>2375684
>Number crunching is fun if you're playing solo
No, it isn't. I occasionally play RPGs, but I loathe the minmaxing and number crunching. In fact, I try the hardest to disable damage value popups or otherwise visible stats, because they annoy me greatly. Stats should be felt, not read. They are a necessity in pen&paper/tabletop, to emulate a basic computer. But when I have a modern desktop or console, there's virtually no reason to stick to number crunching

>>2375674
That's how my group plays them. No one gives a shit about a story.

>>2375684
So you're telling me if there was a RPG that had no story, no characters, no setting, no world, and the only thing you did was manage stats in order to fight enemies that were little more than a pixel on the screen, you would find that fun? Or even more fun than the exact same thing but with a world, a story, and interesting characters?

>>2375668
>Procedural generation is so extremely powerful, though you mostly don't even notice when it's done well.

dude, you just said it's in its infancy. you are already contradicting yourself saying it's extremely powerful just a few sentences later.

>You're still silently implying it should stay in the corner and do menial tasks, at most

If I haven't typed out anything like that on this damn board for you to read and I'm not "silently" implying anything just so you can rip on me or craft some argument you can use against me, you fucking asshole.

I admit I'm not as knowledgable about game development to be informed enough about the quirks of procedural generation but you already put it into perspective previously in several posts so that led me to a different way to think about it. But again, don't give me bullshit like I'm "silently" implying something unless you can clearly backtrack that in a post of mine.

>>2375687
I don't know what game you're playing then.

It's impossible to play without some kind of story, even if it's just an implied story.

Otherwise, what the fuck are you doing? What's the goal? You might as well play Monopoly at that point.

>>2375694
>dude, you just said it's in its infancy. you are already contradicting yourself saying it's extremely powerful just a few sentences later.
Its infancy is already extremely powerful. It's not a contradiction, but an indicator of things to come. It doesn't take much to understand that at its core procedural generation is simulation, and we know what simulation can already do, realtime and otherwise. Not talking simulation games, but actual scientific simulation of real life behavior. If you can describe something, anything, in terms of rules, you can generate it procedurally, simple as that. Take a look at physics, biology and even psychology, and you can find rules (in the form of laws or observations) virtually everywhere. All it takes for procedural generation to use that is scaling the rules down, or scaling the available resources (hardware) up.
For maybe an unexpected direction for procedural generation, take a look at the AI of Left 4 Dead. The game is procedurally generating the pacing, among other things. That's a step towards RPG narratives.
http://www.valvesoftware.com/publications/2009/ai_systems_of_l4d_mike_booth.pdf
especially the sections Provide Competent Human Player Proxies and Generate Dramatic Game Pacing

>>2375665
>RPGs are about stats and management.
No.

RPGs are about roleplaying.
Roleplaying = making choices and having those choices acknowledged by the Dungeon Master (DM).
In cRPGs, the computer takes on the role of the DM. So roleplaying in cRPGs = making choices that are recorded in-game and usually rewarded for by giving the player a different experience. Stuff like "I am a paladin so I will only do paladin-like things" does not count, because that's a choice you make in real life between you and yourself - the computer doesn't give a shit.

>>2375676
>that's your own and only your own subjective opinion.
Okay, good, you made me slightly agitated. Good job BioWare turd. At least you put it separately from the rest of your post so I didn't have to read it.

>>2375732
>Stuff like "I am a paladin so I will only do paladin-like things" does not count
It should.

>the computer doesn't give a shit.
It should. In terms of changing the narrative, altering NPCs stances towards you, and not just in a good vs. evil meter, but real actual consequences, just like a DM would.

Computer RPGs have a very long way to go still.

>>2375692
All truly classic RPGs are like that. If you've never played anything made before 1985 you shouldn't talk about what RPGs are about. Who says that characters have to be interesting? A lot of times that stuff is just forced and annoying and the game would be better without it.

>>2375738
>It should.
Yes, it should. There are a few cRPG's that do that - most recently, Pillars of Eternity. It gives the player a relatively simple but an effective encouragement to do only paladin-like things if they're paladins.

The point is that if you decide to be a goody two shoes because you're playing a paladin when the game absolutely does not care about it, your decision to be a goody two shoes is not roleplaying (at least not in this aspect; games usually do have a "good vs evil" choice acknowledgment). Doing paladinlike things is only roleplaying in cRPGs like Pillars of Eternity and so on that actually do kind of care.

Oh boy it's the legendary "What is a cRPG" discussion

People have died discussing this you know

>>2375740
Alright, so what exactly do you do in a RPG with no story? Whats the goal? Whats the endgame? What do you do?

If there is no story, then there are no enemies to fight, no places to explore, nothing.

Do you just write up character sheets for a world where there is apparently nothing in it and nothing to do?

>>2375752
RPGCodex themselves have agreed that C&C is what makes an cRPG and RPGCodex is the cognitive intellectual HQ of the Internet.

C&C >> story / characters / statistics > combat > the rest.

>>2375751
>The point is that if you decide to be a goody two shoes because you're playing a paladin when the game absolutely does not care about it, your decision to be a goody two shoes is not roleplaying
agreed. That's just playing pretend. Acknowledgement and consequences are necessary for it to be roleplaying.

>>2375758
>Whats the goal?
obtaining the highest numbers on your character sheet

>Whats the endgame?
better ever-stronger mobs with your high numbered char sheet

>What do you do?
fight

>If there is no story, then there are no enemies to fight
You don't need a story for enemies. They can be standing in a line, or the next one pops up out of nowhere.

>no places to explore
correct

>Do you just write up character sheets
Yes

>for a world
No world needed, just an endless supply of number holders to crunch your numbers with.

>>2375740
>All truly classic RPGs are like that
Disagreed. The early RPGs give a general narrative and purpose. Just not from within the game, but the manual, or back of the box. Not enough space on the disk to cram that stuff in there. Feelies and box items were a thing back then for a reason.
Basically, the game disk itself is just the fight-focused DM. Your job is to fill in the blanks with the stuff that comes in the box, like maps, bestiaries and other fun stuff

>>2375778
Manual or box in a game that's saved on a university mainframe? Space was precious, you couldn't waste it on a story. Disks on the other hand had space a plenty and the manual and feelies served as copy protection.

>>2375774
>character sheets
>no world needed

So is there nothing more to your characters than stats? They have no personality, or backstory? They're just stats? Do they even have a gender at least?

That all sounds remarkably boring.

As I said, you might as well play Monopoly. That's far more compelling and interesting than whatever you're playing.

And whatever you're playing is absolutely not indicative of tabletop RPGs as a whole.

>>2375752
It's always interesting to see what people who started playing PnP after 2000 have to say about 70s RPGs and adventure games.

>>2375783
>So is there nothing more to your characters than stats? They have no personality, or backstory? They're just stats?
Correct

>Do they even have a gender at least?
If the gender has an impact on the stats, yes. It's just another modifier.

>That all sounds remarkably boring.
Correct. I hate these games. Doesn't mean I don't recognize them.

>As I said, you might as well play Monopoly
Now you're just being cruel

>That's far more compelling and interesting than whatever you're playing.
stabbing myself dead with a q-tip is more compelling and interesting than playing monopoly.

>And whatever you're playing is absolutely not indicative of tabletop RPGs as a whole.
Actually, it's more representative for computer RPGaming. The extremely heavy focus on fights, characters being mostly stats sheet with a ton of modifiers (called "items"), these games are heavily geared towards number crunching, far more than any tabletop RPG could ever fear.

>>2375786
I'm glad I've never encountered a game like whatever you're talking about then.

I even find roguelikes fun with their no graphics, and bare minimum story.

That all just sounds...I don't even know what, but I'd be hard pressed to even call whatever that is a game.

>>2375791
roguelikes are actually very close to that. The story is forgettable, the character has no introduction or background. All traits of the character (class, religion, whatever) are stat modifiers. The only thing different is a movement system, so you can decide what encounter to have when. The world this movement happens in though, is not established at all. NPCs have no personality and merely act as suppliers, and so on. So, roguelikes are a pretty good example of such a bad game. They're largely an exercise in numbercrunching and overcoming odds through strategy (in terms of movement and stats allocation), with the goal to survive encounters as long as possible, to place high on the scoreboard.

>>2375704
The guy is right though, an RPG isn't defined by dialogue, choice and shit like that. The essence of an RPG is its mechanics, stats, combat systems. Otherwise by your standards Wizardry isn't an RPG, which would be pretty ridiculous. Even if you had no story whatsoever, if it includes the abovementioned elements it's an RPG.
Look, late 90s isometric rpgs are awesome, and it's great we got to thst point, but redefining the definition to include only them in the genre and throw "number crunchers" doesn't work. Any genre can have choices and consequences but not be an RPG.

>>2375798
you seem to establish a false dichotomy with the choices and consequences keyword.
RPGs do need stats in order to simulate the behavior of a character that is disconnected from the player. So, for example, a physically weak player could still play a physically strong character. However, ever since the beginning in tabletop RPGing, fight has been but one interaction mechanism in an RPG. In fact, plenty RPG systems will punish fights harshly, and introduce a high risk of character loss. That's where computer RPGs tend to fail. They simulate almost exclusively the hostile interaction with NPCs (mobs). The "chocie and consequences" thing is a distraction, since it's just a chose-your-own-adventure book tacked on to the fight engine. If you ask a table top GM, you will understand there's more to it. The interaction tends to go beyond fighting and dialog options.
As part of that extended interaction, thorough understanding of a player character, including their background, personality, goals and motivations, and last but certainly not least, their position in the game world, is fairly important. Stuff that computer RPGs tend to skip

>>2375808
I want to add, while RPGs do need stats, for the mentioned reason; what they don't need is visible numbers. They are entirely rooted in the pen&paper history, when you needed to know the numbers to perform the rolls and evaluate the results. With a computer though, it is constantly able to evaluate all the player actions, all the character actions, and alter the game world accordingly. There's no need to give a "strength" number on a digital character sheet, if you can instead show the player character model becoming more buff, or succeeding in lifting heavy stuff. Feedback is a billion times cooler than a stats sheet. As mentioned earlier in the thread though, RPGs are a bit stuck in the "established" phase, and sadly what's established is a pen&paper damage model with visible numbers, and dialog selections.

>>2375798
>Otherwise by your standards Wizardry isn't an RPG
Exactly, it isn't.

Which is also why most JRPGs are not real RPGs either. It's only "pretty ridiculous" because of that. There's nothing ridiculous about (early) Wizardries being pseudo RPGs at best.

Wizardry 6-8 actually has choices and consequences so they are real RPGs, despite being mostly dungeon crawlers with relatively weak role-play aspects.

>>2375796
When I'm playing a rougelike, I'm not some little symbol on the screen navigating through other symbols. I'm a person navigating through a dungeon filled with monsters and traps, and I have a set goal in mind. To get to the bottom, fight whatever dark lord, retrieve some mystical item, and get out.

>>2375798
Wizardry has a story though. And a setting, and characters. You could just leave your characters as nothing but a collection of stats, but if you really wanted to ROLE PLAY, you could give them personalities, backstories, etc.

That's where most of the fun comes from. The stats and mechanics are the vehicle that allows you to role play.

And there is often much, much more to role playing than just fighting random mobs. Wizardry just chose to focus on fighting because that was the easiest thing to do for a video game back then.

>>2375817
What's stopping you from doing that with any other game? There were even games with focus on story and setting, they're called adventure games.

>>2375817
>but if you really wanted to ROLE PLAY, you could give them personalities, backstories, etc.

Giving them "personalities, backstories" is not "ROLE PLAY" in Wizardry games. The games don't care about that stuff at all. It's LARPing since you might as well be writing those "backstories" down on a piece of paper.

The closest to actually roleplaying by giving characters personalities is in Wizardry 8 where you can actually choose their voices which set the tone for the character.

>>2375817
>When I'm playing a rougelike, I'm not some little symbol on the screen navigating through other symbols. I'm a person navigating through a dungeon filled with monsters and traps
That is all in your mind. The game establishes virtually none of it. Likewise, a number cruncher can play a roguelike without caring about the stuff you mentioned

>and I have a set goal in mind. To get to the bottom, fight whatever dark lord, retrieve some mystical item, and get out.
Likewise, that's your choice to make it one. Otherwise the game just has a pre-defined direction to progress to, in order to achieve the highest score/stats. That it's down for a while, then up, is just convention.
I'd like to point out that Etrian Odyssey 2 turned this upside down, making you go up. You mentioned "get to the bottom" so casually, as if it's normal. Yet it's just convention. Goes to show just how much that stuff actually "matters" in terms of story and character interaction. Not at all.

>>2375828
>The game establishes virtually none of it
Yes it does. At the very least, you have a setting and an objective.

It's enough to stir your imagination.

>a number cruncher can play a roguelike without caring about the stuff you mentioned
Well yeah, it is still a game with strict boundaries and rules. The trick is to try to get the player to put that in the back of their mind.

And I'd say most RPGs, even tabletop RPGs succeed at doing so.

Without some kind of premise, a RPG is about as fun as math homework.

>>2375843
>Yes it does. At the very least, you have a setting and an objective.
And you can very safely ignore it, because none of it is of any consequence for the game.
Maybe we're talking different things here. I'm not saying roguelikes are bad, I play them myself occasionally. I'm saying that they are pure number crunchers.

>Well yeah, it is still a game with strict boundaries and rules
So is a DM'd tabletop RPG, and yet you need to pay attention to your character's character, their surroundings, their non-combat interactions, their motivation, shortcomings, etc.

>Without some kind of premise, a RPG is about as fun as math homework.
That is your bias. We already noticed at least one person in this thread that prefers pure math/optimization over word problems. I'm not one of them, but I can at least acknowledge their existence, and how games can, and do work for them. In fact, they work better for them, than people that try to play actual roles, because the computer DM does not account for that behavior, as we also established.

>>2375816
No, I disagree completely with your redefining, and I think it contradicts basic genre distinctions that basically everyone accepts.

A jrpg with a developed plot and characters and complicated battle system, but absolutely no roleplay choice at all, is an RPG. The simplest Rogue-like with stats and survival as the only goal is an RPG. A dialogue-heavy crpg with heavy choices that affect the world around you, is also a CRPG.
They're all different kinds of the genre, and which is better is irrelevant here, and neither tabletop games nor a modern player who thinks Baldur's gate is great, decides what the genre is.

A jrpg with complex plots and battle system but no choice whatsoever is a

>>2375850
>A jrpg with complex plots and battle system but no choice whatsoever is a
JRPG, yes.

>>2375850
>redefining
I'm not them, but there is very little redefining actually going on.
The problem is, that RPG has several distinct and conflicing meanings. In the table top world RPG requires characters being played, with interaction and stuff.
In the realm of computers, RPGs tend to mean elaborate battle systems, connected by dialog trees and cutscenes, or sandboxes with the same elaborate battle systems.

Going by the tabletop definition, dungeon crawlers, and even JRPGs are not RPGs.

>>2375816
No, I disagree completely with your redefining, and I think it contradicts basic genre distinctions that pretty much everyone accepts in the medium.

A japanese game with a developed plot and characters and complicated battle system, but absolutely no narrative choice at all, is a RPG. The simplest Rogue-like with stats and survival as the only goal is a RPG. A dialogue-heavy computer game with varied choices that affect the world around you, is also a RPG.
They're all different kinds of the genre, and which is better is irrelevant here, and neither tabletop games nor a modern player who thinks Baldur's gate is great, decides what the genre is. What they all share in common is statistics, primarily character improvement, experience and so on. When someone says a game has RPG elements, you can be sure they mean this. Diablo II is not an action game with a lot of math, it's an action RPG. Everyone understands this so it's retarded when you want to replace the definitions.

>>2375858
That's not what the original DnD was about either. It was basically just dungeon crawling. Remember that RPGs developed out of strategy war games.

>>2375858
None of them are conflicting meanings, all all rpgs share character development, experience, stats. If there's no sufh elements it's probably an adventure game.

>>2375874
Yes, and superhero comic books developed out of pulp detective stories. Doesn't mean that superheroes have to be detectives.

>>2375881
>all rpgs share character development
JRPGs don't, due to a strictly linear and predetermined narrative

>experience
a crutch that's a leftover from the pen&paper world, mistaken for a key aspect.

>>2375885
How does linearity mean there is no character development?

>>2375892
because the player's actions do not shape the character. It's closer to the "character development" happening in a book, shaped by the writer, pushed onto the player in a take-it-or-leave-it situation. In role playing character development is enforced by the player.

>>2375885
Huh? Jrpg characters gain levels are abilities. That's my whole point, it's the only consistent and stable part of what makes an rpg that's not up to arguing. Therefore it should be what we base our definition of the genre on, and not some postmodern conception that wants to separate itself from the roots of games that were always rpg standards.

if you have a new genre in mind, by all means present it.

>>2375915
increasing numbers are not character development. They're not role playing either. They're just number crunching.
Sadly these games are called RPGs, and in the realm of computer games you're best off refering to these games as RPGs. They aren't role playing games in the sense of the term though. It's a misnomer. An established one, but still a misnomer.

Don't need a new genre or definition. Just take what a DM does with their group and you're closer to roles being played, than most computer RPGs.

>>2375894
That's still character development.

>>2375927
Then there's only one "true" RPG in videogame history, Neverwinter Nights.
Well, also Neverwinter Nights 2.

Does anyone here really like Might and Magic, particularly the older ones (1-5)?

What do you like about them? I don't find them that engaging but I'm playing them now not then. I imagine them having a similar appeal to DragonQuest.

>>2376096
I played 1-3 recently.
1 was a decent game.
2 tried to improve it on various fronts but some aspects turned out for the worse.
3 was too easy.It feels like a good choice for beginners.

>>2375882
Are you >implying that old D&D dungeon crawling modules didn't qualify as RPGs?

What happens if I play a tabletop RPG where I'm the last sentient being on earth after a nuclear apocalypse? Is it still role playing if I never talk to anybody?

This has got to be the most autistic argument I've witnessed on /vr/ yet.

>>2348469
why are that guy's shirts always so tight

>>2376157
>Are you >implying that old D&D dungeon crawling modules didn't qualify as RPGs?
Yep.

>What happens if I play a tabletop RPG where I'm the last sentient being on earth after a nuclear apocalypse? Is it still role playing if I never talk to anybody?
It's LARPing, unless you have a split personality.

>This has got to be the most autistic argument I've witnessed on /vr/ yet.
It isn't autistic at all actually. It is the objective definition of roleplaying. It is your autism that prevents you from understanding it.

>>2376096
i like them. 3-5 feel kinda like dragon quest to me, where the games seem aware that the goal is just making you feel like you're making progress. 4 and 5 are just straight going to the next dungeon, clearing it the fuck out and getting a ton of loot, and then going and leveling up. and by the end of darkside you're just getting experience and money in an iv basically, by the end of clouds you hit maybe level 40 (i think) and by the end of darkside it's more like level 250. the games really feel like they're designed to be fun, addictive dungeon crawlers, and it works pretty well in my opinion.

>>2347065

These old Ultima games are fascinating curiosities for WRPG fans. A lot of care went into them, but they are dated as hell. Ultima 1 is a good way to spend an evening if you can't figure what to play.

>>2376781
Ultima 8 is free on Origin right now. Its one of the better in the series.

>>2348458
I agree with this ultima underworld is great.

>>2374887
>>2374934
>>2374935

Just wanted to say that these are fantastic posts and I'll be saving them to ponder and repost later. You sum up very well how I feel about the differences between Oblivion and Skyrim vs DF and MW. I see MW as a transition. Skyrim is a different game entirely. Oblivion (which I liked, for the record) was a vast departure as well. But, then again, to say "they're not like a TES game" is silly, because obviously the definition is evolving with each release.

I would prefer it move towards a more detailed, complex, DaggerFall model, as opposed to a prettier, cinematic, shallower model, as in Skyrim, but I'll take what I can get at this point.

>>2350478

You're not going to get banned for posting statue boobies, Anon.

>>2358143

Then they're not allowed to complain about piracy.

>>2375659
>when every single person who ever played BG2 agrees that characters like Jan Jansen or Anomen are annoying as fuck.
yeah nah, i like Anomen

>>2375732
>Okay, good, you made me slightly agitated. Good job BioWare turd.
Why is /v/ allowed on this board?

>>2377102
I don't know why you're allowed here. You can stay in your containment board, BioDrone.

>>2377109
>BioDrone
You do know that Bioware from 10 years ago is completely different from current day Bioware?

>x-drone

good job /v/

>>2377094
Anomen was like surface level paladin material but totally wrong for the job. Still wanted to be a paladin so hard. Awesome character concept. 10/10, would group with again.

>>2377110
As if that means anything. They still live off of the fame from BG2 and all the kiddies think that BG2 is "the best old school (ancient!!) RPG". It goes back to the point of BG2 being overrated as fuck - and it is overrated because people like you exist.

>>2377121
Not him, but getting offended because other people enjoy a certain game really makes no sense.

>>2377151
Nice strawman, dickhead.

>>2347065
Betrayal at Krondor had a cool story, playing that game got me into Raymond E. Feist's books.

Natuk/nahlakh had a cool spellcasting system.

Eye of the Beholder is my favourite dungeon crawler because reasons.

>>2375659
torment has a equally amateurish writing. There are virtually no video RPG that any competent literature critic coulnt make it look like garbage. If there is game that truly is overrated then its torment.
also
>roleplaying
roleplaying means jack shit if its not other people who are roleplaying

otherwise its just clicking on dialogue lines that automatically disqualifies it from roleplaying aspect and turns it into storytelling because these lines and world accompanied by them are pre-made by another person and doesnt allow for decision making based on how would you react to particular situation or how world would react to you.

its like saying you can make audio recorded to roleplay or assume a role by recording possible responses, and try to interact with it by playing it

it was just a few video rpg that truly tried to incorporate that rolepleying aspect into gameplay, but almost all of them were and still is combat (taken from pen&paper games) oriented stat based games

if you want roleplaying than play pen&paper RPGs but if you want stat and skill based combat you play video RPG, they pale in comparison to immersiveness of tabletop games so you are just waisting your time looking for roleplay in a video game

>>2377206
>torment has a equally amateurish writing.
What I really like about you is that you put the stupidest shit that you're gonna say in your post right at the start. Usually, it's somewhere in the middle or at the end, but you announce that you're a massive tool right at the start, so I don't have to read the rest of your post. I glanced on the "roleplaying means jack shit" part too to confirm that my assumption after reading the first sentence was right.

It's the good old fashioned "X in this media will never be as good as X in other media, hence all games that focus on X in the former are equally shit and and shouldn't even try to be good in X" retard argument.

>>2376574
>It is your autism that prevents you from understanding it.
Grasping the non-literal meaning of words is a symptom of autism now? They must have updated the DSM.

>It's the good old fashioned "X in this media will never be as good as X in other media, hence all games that focus on X in the former are equally shit and and shouldn't even try to be good in X" retard argument.

I believe he was actually using the good ol' "things that are bad are not good" argument, but somehow it went over your head.

>>2377298
>PST is a bad RPG, it will never be as good as a tabletop RPG!!
Kill urself ma man.

PST is a better roleplaying experience than anything you will ever get playing with your BSN buddies. Well, if you had taste that is - I'm sure you're gonna love all them romances you're gonna roleplay, between neckbeard and neckbeard.

>>2377317
I'm not either of those guys, but really now
>MUH VIDEO GAMES ARE THE BESTEST EVAR YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND NO TASTE REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
I'm not even /tg/, but even I understand P&P RPGs are more immersive than any vidya could be, similar to how theatre can be more immersive than film: everything's happening in front of you in real-time.

As for the story argument: yes, the best video game stories have not yet compared with the worlds of literature, theatre, or film. If you disagree, you probably haven't experienced much of any of those.
There's nothing wrong with enjoying a game's story, but critically, they haven't yet measured up.

>>2377343
>I understand P&P RPGs are more immersive than any vidya could be,
No, they are not, you fucking retard. It is very rare to find a P&P RPG group that can potentially be better than PST. Most of them don't even try.

>As for the story argument: yes, the best video game stories have not yet compared with the worlds of literature, theatre, or film. If you disagree, you probably haven't experienced much of any of those.
See >>2377298
>>It's the good old fashioned "X in this media will never be as good as X in other media, hence all games that focus on X in the former are equally shit and and shouldn't even try to be good in X" retard argument.

The best video game storylines can still be better than 90% of books/movies/plays, etc. It is a different medium so of course you are never going to get stories as deep as some of the best movies and you're never going to get movies as deep as some of the best books.

>>2377365
>It is a different medium so of course you are never going to get stories as deep as some of the best movies and you're never going to get movies as deep as some of the best books.
Thank you for proving my point. Nobody cares about the story in Monopoly or Risk, so I'm not sure why people get their butts in a hurt about vidya.

Also it's not the RPGs fault you can't find a good group/have a poor imagination.

>>2377374
>I'm not sure why people get their butts in a hurt about vidya.
because video games are not board games. Looks like you still don't get it

>>2377343
It's silly to look for a literature-tier story in a video game, since that's not their main element. A game that matched the works of the western canon in its quality wouldn't even work as a video game, I can't imagine it at least. Have comics, for instance, ever matched the movie greats? They're not that much younger as a medium. At some point I think "reaching" anything needs to be dropped as a goal. Is the best fate of video games to mimic another medium's structures? Seems like a bad outlook.

>>2377374
Story alone does not make a video game good, it is the interactivity of the story (i.e. what PST did).

>Also it's not the RPGs fault you can't find a good group/have a poor imagination.
The point is that you are unlikely to find a RPG group that has a DM who can conjure up something better than stuff like PST/Fallout/Arcanum (the holy trinity of cRPGs). Especially nowadays, it's almost impossible, since the good ones are dying (basically dead already) and being replaced by SJWs. I am not making this shit up. Look at RPG.net:
>http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?753572-An-essay-about-the-board-rules-and-feminism-from-The-Wyzard
>TL;DR - "if you're not a feminyst, LEAVE!"

>>2377380
You're missing the point.

Video games and board games are both games; they are meant for entertainment and competition.
Movies, literature, etc are meant to tell stories. While stories can be entertaining as well, that's not their primary objective or even something they should always strive to be.

Stories in video games are inherently limited because they need to serve the gameplay (I.e. the entire reason people pop in a game instead of a movie). Nobody wants to play a game that isn't fun or gives them negative emotions, as that's running against what games are all about.

>>2377412
>You're missing the point.
Projection

>they are meant for entertainment
Just like books, movies, comics, and yet...
And indeed, occasionally games pop up that try to convey a message, a concept, using gameplay to do so. By restricting them to entertainment, and especially competition, you are setting up and arbitrarily narrow goal.

>While stories can be entertaining as well, that's not their primary objective or even something they should always strive to be.
Likewise, games don't always have to strive to be entertaining or competitive, yet you deny them that.

>because they need to serve the gameplay
Assumption. There are games with very simple gameplay, that draw their appeal from the context and background

>I.e. the entire reason people pop in a game instead of a movie
The entire reason YOU do.

>Nobody wants to play a game that isn't fun or gives them negative emotions
People watch certain movies or read certain books knowing full well that they're gonna get tortured by them, emotionally. Why deny this to people consuming another medium? Because it's interactive? If anything, having the consumer actually contribute, and interact with the medium can hammer home a point a billion times better than just watching or reading it, because the player/actor can not hide behind a passive position. It hits people much harder emotionally when they understand what they did, instead of just read. That's an opportunity, one that you deny, because you insist on a very narrow and limited definition of games.

>>2377424
Asperger syndrome.

I like both dungeon crawlers and interactive storyfag games and consider neither to be inherently superior

What are you assholes going to do about it

>>2377430
Nothing? You clearly seem to understand that dungeon crawlers are not real RPGs & neither is Depressive Quest.

>>2355885
>GoG
http://www.gog.com/news/weekend_promo_activision_activate

Btw sale again. Arcanum is finally on sale again. it's been forever since i missed the last one!

Mostly graphic adventure games, but has some notable RPGs and hybrid RPGs too.

Anyone have an opinion on Return to Krondor? The pre-rendered style looks nice, but I'll probably hate the magic spells in it. It's supposedly a lot more linear than BaK.

>>2377281
To be fair Planescape has better writing than FF7 when it comes amnesia and shit.

>>2377872
It's nice, but I have to take opiates to play these older games depending on the game. It really brings me back. Is return the last Onethey made?

>>2377528
I guess you think LARPers are the only true blue RPG players then??

>>2377879
It's the last one that's related to Midkemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midkemia#External_links

Only 3 games.

>>2377424
You're correct in that there is a hole in my logic: I made the assumption that everyone likes games that are fun and dislikes games that are not fun. Evidently, there are people such as yourself who find enjoyment in unenjoyable games.

Do you own one of the modern consoles, by any chance?

>>2377892

>Nobody wants to play a game that isn't fun or gives them negative emotions, as that's running against what games are all about.

What do you mean by "negative" emotions? Can you elaborate on that?

>>2358253
dropped by to mention this
Betrayal at Krondor is the shit

>>2377880
No? I believe the exact opposite of that. "LARP"ing is not real roleplaying.

>>2373107
>I lost my patience and my attention span is shit

Same, I'd really love to play these older games but I just can't do it. What do?

>>2376803
>>2348458
Most autists here will say the UW games have shit controls though.

>>2382158
why would you even post this if nobody has made that point at all

>>2377936
What's so good about it? It's cheap on gog so I was thinking of getting it but it seems pretty generic from what I've seen.

To those of you arguing quest markets, consider this. Super Mario Bros, arguably the most popular game of all time, only has you go from left to right, with only two castle stages forcing you to make a specific route. Most other Japanese games of the time had you wander around aimlessly in search of some HIDDEN quest items that could only be uncovered by jumping or shooting in thin air. This design philosophy was extremely common in Famicom games. Now consider the leap to more advanced worlds, most games railroad you into going into a specific path, or if they offered freedom, they punish you severely by throwing powerful enemies your way.

Step into 3D games, and once again the worlds were greatly railroaded and forcing you to travel a specific path. N64 collectathons famously have those trinkets scattered around not so that you're forced to collect them, but rather as a different way of saying "go THIS way". If they didn't have those trinkets scattered around, would people have been able to find their way around the world?

Now modern video games fall into one of two camps. Linear point-A to point-B worlds, or huge worlds with quest markers. There's a reason why quest markets exist, it's because the world is so big, but at the same time the world feels all too "samey".

People are stupid, but quest markers are more of a quick fix to an inherent flaw of large, open worlds with non-specific landmarks that just feel all too similar. Consider the GTA games that sometimes have sub missions where you're supposed to find items or people in completely random places of the map. You'll come across said objectives either through sheer luck, or searching every square inch of the map, especially if you can only uncover this item by doing an action such as digging. Windwaker did something similar to this for the Triforce Hunt, and was one of the most hated aspects of the game. It was also shameless filler.

>>2376714
I had the same experience. Especially if you just played alot of difficult and frustrating RPG's (maybe M&M 1-2), than you can delve into the holiday resort of dungeon crawlers that is M&M 3-5, where everything is fun and dandy. Great games.

>>2376714
>>2385536
A lot of dungeon crawlers, especially Japanese ones (been playing Shining in the Darkness), feel like straight up skinner boxes. Wizardry is a dick but I do appreciate the fact that you have to think your way through the game and figure stuff out.

>>2385536
The difficulty is what makes them fun. Even games like MM2 gets boring once you steamroll everything, e.g. after getting enchant item.

>>2362436
lol

>>2347550
what really perplexes me about this is why the hell some one would put so much effort into a shitty copypasta, I am imagining that this person has no real life what so ever.

>>2363593
plz stop. modded oblivion is nearly flawless

>>2375659
>>Every single person

I've never heard anyone ever say anything bad about any party members except Anomen and maybe that thief mage bitch that sucks.

If anything, they praised the characters like Edwin, Korgan, Keldorn, Viconia, even that asshole Yoshimo has his moments. This is really, really your very subjective opinion.

>>2386154
They need difficulty to be good only because the interface and accessibility is terrible. M&M3 is enjoyable from the get-go.