/vr/ - Retro Games

>>2309316
Yeah, I tried making an account and seeing if they shipped internationally, but they don't mail the coils it seems.

I'll keep an eye open regardless, see if I can find one on eBay. Does the size of them make a difference?

>mfw there's no shader for a shit tv and fucked up av cables.

>>2309336
actually there is.

you can emulate the signal quality of...

RF
Composite
S-Video
Scart
Component/RGB

it looks extremely convincing (especially when you pair it with the proper CRT masking shader)

Is it normal for my crt to go a slight hue of green for a brief moment when theres a lot of white on the screen? Or should I be worried?

>>2309394
Hard to capture the hue of the colors properly without throwing off the white balance.

>>2309398
>family guy

image dump time!

>>2309413

>>2309416

>>2309417

>>2309420

>>2309424

>>2309425

>>2309427

>>2309428

>>2309430

>>2309432

>>2309357
that is not nearly shitty enough

>>2309436

>>2309441

>>2309443

>>2309438
(picture too small the show proper detail)

you can adjust the crappiness of the signal

>>2309449
you can make it look like a dog chewed on your AV cables.

>>2309394
>>2309398

something... the shadow King?

that's the one everyone compares to the nightmare before christmas right?

( another one of the many games in my backlog)

>>2309289
>If you're talking about placing them on the tube itself, I've read somewhere about using those thin ones meant for refrigerator magnets.

I'm not sure about placing magnets too close to the tube inside. ( wouldn't that mess with the convergence?)

similar to how you placed speakers around the perimeter, I've just used very small magnets on the outside of the case ( around half the size of my fingernail) and it does the trick.

>This is true, but that's not an option if you need it on to see if what you're doing is having an effect.

correct, that's why I haven't done it. because I'm usually messing around with a signal generator during my fiddling.

>>2309464
>wouldn't that mess with the convergence?
If you put it back towards the gun end, definitely.
Putting them up towards the front however, should only affect the purity.

http://www.repairfaq.org/sam/crtfaq.htm#crtmfx

>>2309460
Mm, that's the one. It's a weird game.

>>2309487
Ah, good I was worried you might try putting magnets close to the neck board.

>>2309449
whoops, typo

what I meant to say was that original image is way too small to show a decent amount of detail. (for some reason the authors website is full of very tiny pictures)

anyway, simplest one to try is "Blargg's NTSC Libraries" several emulators for those. give them a shot see if they can sufficiently emulate the signal you're looking for.

>>2309509
I miss weird video games, everything's just so predictable these days. (that's what happens when America takes over the videogame space, everything's a god damn corridor shooter now... it's like living in the 90s again, but only being allowed to play PC games)

>>2309487
definitely related, I heard they replaced all the language gibberish in the remake. thought crimes in videogame form.

>>2308672
Did you rotate your monitor? I have the same problem.
http://shmups.system11.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=12363

>>2309553
>I heard they replaced all the language gibberish in the remake.
It defaults to english, and the the title screen's wahoo uses that, but thankfully the options menu lets you switch it back to phantomillian.

I've got a Trinitron KV-9PT50 and the geometry's a little off, but I can't find any settings to tweak it, is there any way to fix this?

>>2309428
>>2309427

>>2309676

>>2309679

>>2309681

I bought a trinitron. Worked really well for a few weeks. Last night it shut itself off mid-gaming with a louder than usual "off" sound, and when I turned it back on everything is intensely red overlaid(playing Pikmin I can't tell the difference between the red and yellow pikmin, Yoshi in smash melee is a greyish blue color while everyone else is bright as the sun, it's pretty harsh)

Any ideas what likely caused this? Sound fixable?

>>2309682

>>2309684
I don't know, sounds like one of the electron guns might've gone out. (I'm not sure if that's possible, but I remember seeing similar problems in arcades with purple screens)

what's your model?

>>2309685

>>2309686
It's one of the 2006 WEGA ones. Not sure exact model. I'm not at home right now, I can check in a few hours if its necessary to help me.

>>2309687
( I've seen this pose before...)

>>2309689
Billy reason I ask is because with the model number we could find service manual that might shed some light on the problem.

but you might want to ask again when somebody a little more knowledgeable is awake for the thread.

you might be able to offset some of the color problem in the service menu ( turning off "red push" something you could help)

have you also hooked up your system to another display to make sure it's not just your cables?

>>2309690

>>2309692

>>2309691
Yeah, I've already swapped it out for my old Magnivox and everything works well. Definitely the TV. There were subtle horizontal lines in the red too, I forgot to mention that. I went ahead and used the info I knew to look it up, I'm 99% sure the model is KV-27FS100.


I'll ask again later as you advised if no one can help. I'll be home then to mess with it.

>>2309694

>>2309695
>KV-27FS100

I had that same model, a few years ago and I remember it having a similar problem.

one day it just shut off in the middle of me playing a game, when I turned it back on the entire left side of the screen was blurry and out of focus. (this made playing games incredibly difficult if the menu was on the that side).

I never tried to fix it because I was young and knew nothing about electronics, and it was too heavy for me to lift by myself and try to find a repair man.

so I ended up giving it to the Salvation Army.

it was probably just a microchip inside one of the ICs

you might have the same problem just slightly different ( a different IC)

>>2309696
>>2309698

I'm looking into getting an s-video cable for my CRT, been using composite for years because I'm a pleb.

Are "universal" s-video cables generally considered good? There's one on amazon I have my eye on that looks like it'd be good quality.

>>2309702
what systems are you trying to hook up?

>>2309703
PS1 and N64.

>>2309698
>I never tried to fix it because I was young and knew nothing about electronics
I'm not young, but I'm not very experienced in repairing electronics past the basics. I'm pretty good at figuring things out though, so is there anywhere I can go to begin figuring out how to possibly fix it? Is it worth doing?

>>2309702
what brand is the cable?

if the quality is decent, you shouldn't have a problem.

(I have a game stop branded universal S-video cable, hooking up my PlayStation, Dreamcast and GameCube. it's a multi-cable, is that what you're talking about?)

just remember "not" to hook up the composite input at the same time you're using the S-video input.

understand?

>>2309709
I believe it's a KMD brand cable, I'll toss the link up.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00AB2FY8U/

And yes I understand.

>>2309708
>>2309708
if you have the parts it's very likely you can probably fix it.

you just have to figure what part is broken, then find a replacement part ( if possible)

and also try to figure out if repairing the unit is cost effective ( time and money wise it might be a better idea to buy another set depending on the amount of trouble it could be to fix this)

you might just need a few capacitors, hard to tell without a service manual and someone a little more experienced diagnose the problem.

do you know how to solder?

>>2309714
don't think I've ever dealt with that brand before, How are the reviews? if any.

probably can't hurt to give it a try.

just make sure to watch out for video noise and other anomalies, make sure you don't have a bad cable ( it happens sometimes, even from well-known brands)

>>2309715
>do you know how to solder?
Yep. Thanks for the help. Diagnosing the problem is intimidating. I'm positive I could handle the physical side of fixing the problem, I just don't even know where to begin, so I came here hoping the symptoms sounded like a recognizable problem people could point me towards.

>>2309717
The reviews seem fine to me.

>>2309718
I definitely feel you on that one. these devices are fairly complex, so it can be a daunting task attempting to repair them.

maybe check out some videos on YouTube?

also, remember to be safe and practice the proper procedures to avoid getting shocked.

>>2309724
sounds like a buy to me than. give it a shot.

xcm is another brand I've had good luck with when it comes to multi-cables, so things don't work out give them a try.

>>2309696
it's funny, I thought this game had weird mushy controls.

but without all that input lag. it feels amazing.

too bad capcom pissed away all the goodwill they would've had with this game. ( bringing back poison was a Major feather in their "cap")

>>2309727
I'll keep them in mind, thanks.

Have a silly gif.

>>2309729
>that's pretty funny

Man I hope they make another WA game some day

>>2309579
>switch it back to phantomillian

really? I didn't see that option on the PAL version I bought.

definitely have to check that out, anyone know if the Japanese version has... a Japanese voiceover?

>>2309647
Japan has always been weird when it comes to video signals and standards.

I wonder if they still make TVs with the D-terminal input?

>>2309738
>anyone know if the Japanese version has... a Japanese voiceover?
A little search on youtube says yes.
Ima stick with Phantomillian though.

>>2309702
>>2309709
>>2309714
You have to be careful with S-Video cables, as well as those multi-console cables.
Cheap S-Video cables often carry dual composite rather than luma and chroma, which will result in video artifacting and a generally poor quality image.
With multi console cables, you need to be weary of whether each of the separate cables is/terminates correctly, otherwise you could run into issues ranging from dark pictures to voltage leaks between various consoles(if you were to have them all connected to the cable at once).

That said, I believe my Playstation component cable was made by KMD; The first one's casing around the multi-av literally fell apart in the first night I had it. The replacement was fine, but I chose to wrap it quite heavily with electrical tape just to be safe.

>>2309738
>anyone know if the Japanese version has... a Japanese voiceover?
A little search on youtube says yes.
Ima stick with Phantomillian though.

>>2309702
>>2309709
>>2309714
You have to be careful with S-Video cables, as well as those multi-console cables.
Cheap S-Video cables often carry dual composite rather than luma and chroma, which will result in video artifacting and a generally poor quality image.
With multi console cables, you need to be weary of whether each of the separate cables is/terminates correctly, otherwise you could run into issues ranging from dark pictures to voltage leaks between various consoles(if you were to have them all connected to the cable at once).

That said, I believe my Playstation component cable was made by KMD; The first one's casing around the multi-av literally fell apart in the first night I had it. The replacement was fine, but I chose to wrap it quite heavily with electrical tape just to be safe.

>>2309743
>>2309647
Despite the dubiously matching shape, JP21 is NOT SCART. They have different pinouts, and using a cable spec'd for one with a tv or monitor made for the other can lead to damaging your equipment.

>>2309765
>>2309579
Phantomilian is way better than almost all English VAs in the PS1 era.

>>2309768
>almost all English VAs in the PS1 era
If only it weren't from 2008.

>>2309765
>With multi console cables, you need to be weary of whether each of the separate cables is/terminates correctly, otherwise you could run into issues ranging from dark pictures to voltage leaks between various consoles(if you were to have them all connected to the cable at once).

Well I can always test it to see if there are any issues with having all the consoles plugged in at once, worst comes to worst I'll just have one plugged in at a time.

>That said, I believe my Playstation component cable was made by KMD; The first one's casing around the multi-av literally fell apart in the first night I had it. The replacement was fine, but I chose to wrap it quite heavily with electrical tape just to be safe.

Now that sounds like it could be an issue, hopefully that won't happen.

>>2309786
,not too sure about the Nintendo 64, but I bet you could find s-video cables for the PlayStation pretty easily at a great price

>>2309790
Well if the multi-cable ends up being a wash I can look into getting individual s-video cables for specific consoles.

>>2309786
I'd like to say it was an isolated issue, but since it's the only cable I've used by them, it doesn't really give a reference for the level of quality to expect from them.


On the topic of cabling:
Has anyone purchased that "Innovation" s-video cable (or anything for that matter) from cheapgamestuff on ebay? I'm not planning on getting that cable specifically, but I am looking at the playstation av adapter they're selling.
It's meant to be used for guncon, but if it's wired to pass along the RGB/Component lines, it'd allow me to grab sync off my PS2 without needing to buy a completely new cable.

>>2309793
Sounds familiar... I'll have to look at my box of stuff.

Had a really awful power supply for my gamecube for similar sounding band. It introduced massive video noise and an iratating buzzing sound

It is done, with this I will transcend shitty composite video.

I hope there's no issues with it.

>>2309884
i have bad news for you anon...

>>2309891

>>2309161
the bleeding comes from my phones camera

its a trinitron kv21-m3l

>>2309420
>>2309427
>>2309432

Sony ProFeel Pro Monitor KX34HV2

year: 1989.

800TVL

>tfw, you collect Japanese electronics

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_qPNAH9pmhk

>>2309884
official sony s-video cable 6$ on fee bay

definitely check those out

>>2310034
I'll look into them if the one I get fails.

where can i cop a moderately nice CRT TV for a fair price? also
What's a fair price?

>>2310072
Get a craigslist trini for free.

>>2310072
how much are you willing to pay?

>>2310075
Something like 20-50$. Am I doing it right?

>>2309884
take a picture when you get them

>>2310079
I don't have a very good quality phone camera, but okay.

>>2310083
That's fine. maybe use some of the CRT Photography Tips people have posted in the previous thread. but it should be fine either way

>>2306441 here
so i went and bought the TV and ho ly boner this is the best one I've ever used.
I was not only surprised by the video quality but the audio is pretty fucking sharp too!

Sorry for the phone camera pic, don't have anything better

This game. It just looks SO good. Not to mention fun to play.

Pic from my 21' Trinitron.

>>2310339
Check out the model. I've seen Trinitrons like that often for sale on auction sites. Good to know I can pick one up (if I can carry it, looks like a 29' er).

>>2310339
Here's a closeup

>>2309743

>>2309743

it's not that they're weird when it comes to video signals, it's just that the other anon's statement is simply false: Only some MSX 2 computer models had JP21 ports (SCART for the models release in Europe), and these where made for the sole purpose of being used as video-editing computers, or just use high-end consumer RGB monitors. And it's for this very same reason that the megadrive and SNES could output RGB : to allow high-end users, the one owning these KX and Profeel sets, to benefit from the best video signal their sets could handle, RGB.

>>2310021
>800TVL

Even though it's a larger set that's pretty damn nice.

>>2310357
>And it's for this very same reason that the megadrive and SNES could output RGB : to allow high-end users, the one owning these KX and Profeel sets, to benefit from the best video signal their sets could handle, RGB.
I always assumed it was because Europe lacked a standard color encoding. In NA, you could just use RF because the whole continent had the same RF channel assignments, the same audio carrier, the same chroma carrier, and the same line/field rate. In Europe, you had a common line/field rate, but nothing else, so RGB was the only way to work everywhere.

>>2310339
>best one I've ever used.

I know that feeling. growing up the only sets I used were Magnavox and Emerson shit boxes. (RF only like most people in America).

>>2310346
looks really nice

>>2310343
is that Guardian heroes?

man I've always wanted to play that game.

I'm really sorry if this is a question that's asked often/annoying/etc, but will I see benefits from using a high quality CRT (not PVM/BVM, but say a Trinitron) if I'm only using RCA connections?

>>2310858
sure the set has quality components and a decent comb filter and you're using good quality cables then probably yes.

of course if you're using a decent Trinitron it will probably have s-video, so you could upgrade most of your video connections to that. (definitely recommend for PlayStation era and up)

later sets even have component video (what country are you in?)

>>2310864
USA. Consoles I use are N64, Dreamcast, and Wii. Afaik, N64 doesn't support any better than RCA without modification, Dreamcast has the VGA box and I'd rather drop the extra cash and jump to that than bothering with a S-video cable, but the not /vr/ one would be able to take advantage of it.

>>2310357
that sounds about right I guess, but I don't think Pro feel monitors were for normal consumers (hence the pro-part)

very sure it was only for video editors and probably game makers themselves.

I think the average Japanese consumer probably used RF and Composite like most Americans.

(most games from the 80s and 90s era seem optimized for composite connections)

then probably a few educated consumers use S-Video because that was more widely available in Japan it seems that the US or Europe.

and then I'm sure there was probably a very small "video otaku" community that even had an inkling of what RGB or higher quality connections could be. (as I've assumed mostly developers use that type of connection for content production)

>>2310874
Not that guy but I'm pretty sure NTSC N64s support s-video.

>>2310584
Sony had some even larger sets that with extremely high line counts.

like their "high vision" series. if I recall the flagship model was a 1000TVL 49" set

>>2310895
Hm. So it does. Guess what's I get for assuming things. Must be SCART or something I was thinking of. Thanks.

>>2309294
>warped, fuzzy images with lines going through them
gross

>>2310874

N64, has S-video (you could use the same cable from the super Nintendo s-video connector)

Dreamcast also has Has S-video, and if you're going to hook it up to the CRT that's probably the best connection you can get without using an RGB to component transcoder

Wii has great s-video output and I use it for all my virtual console games, look fantastic

although I had to track down an official Nintendo cable from Japan ($26 plus shipping) (pictured)

>>2310902
>49"
>CRT

Nope

I don't recall any sony 39" models either.

>>2310926
someone actually posted a picture of it in the thread here it was definitely bigger than 39" inches

and Mitsubishi also released a very large CRT and states as well.

>>2310947
Is that Strong Bad?

>>2310926
>>2310947

I've seen Mitsubishi megaview's that were definitely in the 40 inch plus range.

I do remember hearing about 50 inch direct view CRTs being used for very special occasions ( repurposed prototypes and TV station equipment, NHK had one set up in the lobby for a while)

>>2310947
>>2310957
> holding a sword with boxing gloves on?

>>2310978
Those are his hands.

>>2310947
>>2310957
>>2310978

To my knowledge, the largest mitsubishi direct projection tubes were ~42", sony was 40" and NEC made some 39". Anything over 42 is rear projection.

>>2310983
>Anything over 42 is rear projection.

yeah for normal and pro- consumers, but some edge case devices were produced in very small quantities.

although it's hard to find information on these things ( I've been looking) (I've seen some post on the AV science form about it)

of course for the purpose of this thread it doesn't really matter because none of us (or very few of us) would have the resources to locate and transport something that size even if it was still usable.

>>2310992
I don't know of ANY tubes larger than that, consumer or otherwise, and I recall that they were already having issues with deflection at those sizes. Got any info on the larger sets? I'd be interested to know how they got the picture to work on a tube that large.

>>2311000
according to what I've read a company called Thompson ( I'm assuming they used to be known as Thompson electric)

Built a tube larger than 42 inches, but it was definitely never mass-produced.

and then there was some pictures of what was described as a 50" prototype at one of the electronics trade shows. makes me wonder if anybody actually witnessed it powered on.

you can probably find some of the archived threads but most of the picture links are probably dead knowing them ( last time I was there looking for video scaler images nothing worked)

I'm having a really hard time finding an electronics shop locally that repairs CRTs. They're all full of young guys who have never worked on anything but a flatscreen in their life.

Anybody have any advice for finding the right place?

>>2311071
took me a while to find a place, to take my busted PVM.

it's full of old guys, it's called "radio repair"

basically just have to make a bunch calls, through the Yellow Pages, white pages.

ads online for repair man of appliances and electronics. even if you do find older guys that have done it. another problem is a lot of them have sold off or given up their old CRT tools ( very few of them have degassing coils anymore)

>>2311081
>>2311071
Don't mean to sound negative but CRTs are on life support. Sometime just pull the plug for good and get another or move on.

>>2311081
Yeah, I figured as much. Maybe I'll put out an ad to see if anyone knows a guy, see what I can find.

>>2311093
It's a 20-inch PVM and they're a rarity in my area, so I want to see my options before I'm ready to drop it.

>>2311093
yeah but they fixed it... and they did a great job restoring it great condition.

I printed out the service manuals for them and they went to town making adjustments and improvements to the picture quality.

one of the guys there used to be the on-site repair man for the local TV news station, so he's very well acquainted with broadcast and production monitors.

only cost me around $45 to get it repaired.

they've even done a few custom arcade machines for the local videogame bar

>>2311113
>printed out the service manuals for them

You know, I called an electronics place a while back and they said they DID repair CRTs, but when I said it was a PVM they turned me down. I think it was because they didn't have the service manual. I wonder if printing out my own would've made the difference there.

>>2311106
also don't forget to check out arcade hobbyists, those guys have to know a lot about CRT monitors, because they if they don't maintain them they're going to be gone forever.

>>2311123
definitely ask more questions, and definitely say you have the service manuals and documentation.

the only other thing I can think of that might make a repair shop nervous would be trying to find parts, and I'm assuming some parts of a PVM/BVM are pretty rare now.

>>2311131
True. I don't think there's any arcade hobbyists left in my city, but I'll take a look around. I used to know a guy, but I lost contact years ago when he moved.

Just got this Polaroid today it's a ttm-2004r. My neighbor was gonna throw it out.

Yo crt it has been a while. Does anyone know what type of damage could be caused by sending a progressive scan signal to a CRT through component cables? (if at all) and why?

I use a wii connected to a 32 wega to play emulated games. One day my stupid ass decided to switch the signal output to 480p in the wii system menu out of curiosity. The image was extremely warped and fast moving, it took around 20 minutes to switch the settings back to 480i because i had to navigate through the menus by trial and error. After setting it back, i shut off the tv and heard a lot longer/louder of a static discharge crackle sound than usual. Almost as if i supercharged the tv from sending it the wrong signal. Upon turning it back on i felt like the image was a bit blurrier than usual. This was a while back but it bugged me a lot at the time and i couldn't find much information about it.The change is so minor that i may just be imagining it, but i have been curious about this for some time.

>>2311201
well, 20 minutes is kind of a long time to be sending the wrong signal to your monitor.

why didn't you just turn it off, then hook the we up to composite ( automatically 480i) and then set the menu system back to 480i natively before hooking up your component cables again?

that would've fixed your issue pretty quick.

have you tried any type of calibration on the set? like with the 240 feet tests or some type of AV calibration DVD?

my Wega did have a focus problem on the left-hand side of the screen was incredibly blurry compared to the right side.

you should take a look at some test patterns to see if you have uniformity issues.

silver Wega tvs are also notorious for making ugly and spooky sounds with the power supplies

( some of the repair guys have told me that Sony used power supplies that were too much for the circuitry inside so sometimes that causes issue, that's why I've been told to look for Toshiba and Mitsubishi crt instead of Sony's by some people)

>>2311169
that looks pretty sweet, I don't think Polaroid actually produced it though. they probably just slap their name on a re-badge.

still looks pretty high-quality though, does it have any S-video or component inputs in the back?

>>2311169
that looks pretty sweet, I don't think Polaroid actually produced it though. they probably just slap their name on a re-badge (funai or mitsubishi)

looks like it has nice a picture though

>>2311220
Nah, It just has more composite inputs on the back. I could trade this one for a an older NEC from 88. this one was made in 2005 I think.

Pic related, its the only one I could find with my old TV in it.

>>2311256
what what's so great about the NEC from 1988?

>>2311270
the scanlines seemed more apparent, I don't know much about the quality of different CRT models but I feel like the other one was better at hiding sharp pixels. what tv/monitor do you use?

>>2309294
Klonoa is on of the best platformers I've ever played. How did I not know about it before?

>>2311279
>the scanlines seemed more apparent,


oh, that's totally understandable then. yeah most of the silver style sets don't have very visible scanlines.

>what tv/monitor do you use?

I have a 14 inch silver Trinitron with component inputs, don't really use this one for gaming too much anymore, so it's mostly for TV watching now.

and I have a 14 inch medical PVM, I bought off from my doctor's office. looks really good (awesome scanlines). but it's kind of small compared to some of sets I played on when I was a kid.

how big is the set from 1988 versus this Polaroid one?

>>2311280
because it was an obscure Namco property?

(and probably because people think he's somehow connect to sonic, and all those "mature" gamers love hating on sonic or any kind of animal-based mascot)

outside the original PlayStation release I don't think anybody in the United States is played very much of the series.

and also had a bunch of weird sequels on the PS2 nobody really seem to like. but I thought the graphics in those were pretty nice. kind of cell shaded like if I remember.

>>2311286

> I have a 14 inch medical PVM

I've always wanted a PVM but I haven't had any luck in finding them.

> how big is the set from 1988 versus this Polaroid one?

They're both around 20 inches in size.
I'm probably gonna trade it for the NEC. I gave the NEC to my next door neighbor since I didn't have enough room for it.

>>2310357
>>2310884

here's some info on video connections.

my favorites are still ( in this order)

VGA, DVI, Component. S-video.

>>2311302
>I've always wanted a PVM but I haven't had any luck in finding them.

yes sometimes you luck out and find an electronics recycler selling them for around $60. but if you want it shipped to you it's going to cost $60 to $80. so It gets kind of pricey

I was lucky because my doctor's office was just going to recycle it or or try to sell it on eBay.

>>2311302
>I'm probably gonna trade it for the NEC.

sounds like an awesome idea, take some more pictures if you get a chance.

>>2311290
>because it was an obscure Namco property?

And the only reason he's obscure is because Namco's support for any PSX titles that weren't Tekken, Ridge Racer, or Pac-Man sucked ass.

I literally never saw Klonoa or any of the Tales games new in stores, ever.

>>2311310
>I literally never saw Klonoa or any of the Tales games new in stores, ever.

that's kind of true of most game properties that are blockbuster AAA titles though.

mainstream stores that sell games usually only had the well-known titles.

going to a game specialty store or some of the smaller rental stores you would find some niche stuff.

Castlevania: Symphony of the night was impossible for me to find around my area.

Revelations Persona was an awesome find that I would never have the chance to play if someone hadn't donated it to the local library. (it was technically brand-new at the time but none of the game stores I called had ever heard of it)

>>2311310
>PSX titles that weren't Tekken, Ridge Racer, or Pac-Man

yeah but those early titles carried the PlayStation first two years. Sony owes Namco a lot when I think about it.

>>2311290
>and also had a bunch of weird sequels on the PS2 nobody really seem to like.
It's talked fondly of on /v/ in the ever so rare occasion that you can get them to not derail it into lewd and castration.
I probably would have never even given the series a look had it not been to those(older, somewhat calmer) threads, amusingly enough.

>but I thought the graphics in those were pretty nice. kind of cell shaded like if I remember.
I don't know if I'd call it cel shaded, but it's definitely a very pretty game.
>>2309765


>>2310902
>>2310926
>>2310947
>>2310983
>>2311000
>>2311039
see
>>1985137
>>1980828
Sony KX-45ED1, sold for 2.43 million yen in 1988.
I really wonder what happened to that anon, and if he ever got his CRT.

I got this Sony Mega Watchman for $8. It only has a 3.5mm ext antenna input. So I got a 3.5mm to av to coaxial adapter and hooked it up to my old vcr and presto. Its a 5" b&w screen but the image quality is actually not that bad and its cute!

>>2311452
and here is a video of the baby in action.

So I've decided I'm going to take the plunge finally and convert from consumer CRT to a PVM.
I'm going to waste a fuck ton of money on gas while I drive around and awkwardly ask secretaries, security guards, and hospital janitors if they have any old TV's and/or monitors laying around. Once thats been done, should they understand after I explain that I'm looking for the ones that are square with lots of buttons and knobs on them, and not the Emerson in the waiting room, I'll figure out who I should talk to in order to see about buying/hauling it off for them.
Then I'm going to give up after the second place turns me down, and browse overpriced listings on ebay with shipping that costs more than the actual product I'm bidding on. Lastly, I'll regret spending all that money on an 8" TV when I could have gotten a flashcart instead. Especially since the image of a foetus and/or John Candy has been burned into the tiny screen.

That being said, are there any particular models/series should I look out for during my awkward quest to find what most would consider junk? And if I fail to find a PVM, are there any particular models of consumer grade Trinitrons I should seek? I already know that HD sets are gonna lead to a bad time, so thats not an issue.

Also, I've got a PC monitor with a Dell name, but its labeled Trinitron in the corner. The back says its an "UltraScan P780". Is this just a rebadged Sony, or did Dell buy the rights to use the name?

>>2311486
At 00:33 you can see the Super GameBoy border is cut off in all directions. Is this adjustable or is the part of the screen hiding behind the plastic(?) bezel?

Otherwise a sweet find!

>>2311486
Looks awesome, nice job man.

>>2311493
>PC monitor with a Dell name, but its labeled Trinitron in the corner

why not just use that then?

>>2311494
yeah I think its just the overscan.

>>2311486
Adorable.
How's it sound?

>>2311493
>should they understand after I explain that I'm looking for the ones that are square with lots of buttons and knobs on them
A pictures worth a thousand words. Show them a picture of something in the M line and/or L line.
The former will cover the **40 series, **50 series, itself, and is similar enough in design to some old BVMs and the low end N-series.
The latter will get you the L series, and is similar in design to the 2030(and 2520/2950) and the BVM D series. They obviously don't look exactly alike, but are close enough to where someone not paying much attention could confuse one for the other.

>That being said, are there any particular models/series should I look out for during my awkward quest to find what most would consider junk?
While keeping an eye out for models/series with higher line count or multiformat support is smart, it may be simpler to look for available connections and condition.
Taking the above into consideration, you'd want to check for RGB and "YPbPr" component obviously. Older sets may only have the former and low end newer sets may not even have either.

1/2

>>2311518
Partially because I dont have a way to convert the video signal from component/s-video/composite to VGA, partially because its hooked up to my 98SE machine, partially because its not a curved screen, but mainly, because there's a giant scratch in the glass. Plus I'd rather have a big TV to go in my big TV cabinet, as opposed to a computer monitor.

>>2311530
Sounds pretty good actually the speaker is pretty big for the case.

>>2310593
>always assumed it was because Europe lacked a standard color encoding.

Most of Europe used the very same PAL encoding, or a compatible one. The only country that didn't was France, that's why we had RGB cables shipped with the console(until the nintendo 64), while most of Europe still had composite cables.

>>2310884

>I don't think Pro feel monitors were for normal consumers (hence the pro-part)

Profeels were definitely consumer products, there were some advertisings on TV you can check on youtube, as well as tests and ads in audio/video magazines of the time, both in Europe and Japan. Yeah, Video editors definitely used those, as well as early PVMs, but it was meant to be a high-end consumer product though. Also, lower-end consumers could still use some MSX2 RGB monitors with their consoles (the way the other anon use his Sony KX-14CP1 for example).

>(most games from the 80s and 90s era seem optimized for composite connections)

Which is wrong, they used the same tricks as in arcade and microcomputer games, and both used RGB monitors. While not completely sublimated, those tricks still works on an RGB monitor.

>>2311530
Trying to put together a list/order models in terms of desirability would be quite difficult without getting into caveats all over the place.
The BVM-D and L5 will get you progressive scan(480p+) but are also the least likely to find(especially the BVM-Ds);
BVM E F and G are similarly sharp to the BVM-D line, but don't sport progressive scan
L4/M4 are sharper than their L2/M2 counterparts; 800 line count vs 600.
N Series are budget models with lower line count (less sharp) tubes. N2 and N6 have RGB, N5 doesn't
(40 and 50 series mentioned above)43/44/45 and 53/54 are comparable to M2s, just older; 40/42 are lower line count and less inputs but still decent. Model numbers will be along the lines of 1943 (2043) 1344(1444); Same sets, just different regions.
2030/2530/2950 are probably going to be less likely to find from the places you are checking, but are all older models with lower line counts. RGB but no Component. Can still look nice.
Older BVMs like the 2010p, 2015p, and 2016p really seem to be a mixed bag between models and I don't know enough about them to give you an accurate description. Hopefully someone else could fill (us) in on what I missed.

Models ending in Q and QM denote support for multiple color systems (NTSC/PAL) and expected power (QM being 220v)
MD are medical variants. Sometimes offer more inputs (2 RGB vs only 1)
U/E/A/J are region codes.

This was all written as a stream of consciousness sort of thing, so I may have missed a few things.

>>2307690
>I'd love to know how the BVM is
Sorry about the lateness of my reply, been trying to get some stuff sorted out.
The BVM looks good, but to my eye not quite as sharp as the PVM. A little bit disappointing although it could be because some of the inputs on the rear aren't terminated, which someone mentioned earlier as having an effect on the picture.

You can't really tell from the image, but here's a sample anyway.

>>2311563
L1 is like a N6 but with more lines. Basically a L2 minus the RGB inputs. There's also a L3 and L4, I forget the specs.

Easy way to tell L2 from M2 and earlier is 5 knobs instead of 6. L2 also has the newer and easier to use OSD.

I'd rank desirability and availability as:

>Multiformat. Not terribly rare but almost always expensive.
>High line count SD. Seems to be more rare than multiformat and 600 line. Can be found priced similar to 600 line if you dig.
>600 line. These seem to be everywhere thanks to medical models. Can be had very cheap if you dig enough.
>Sub 600 line/Non RGB. Cheap online but seems to be to be less plentiful than 600 line.
>Trash. 250 line 8" sets, 5" sets, B&W. Avoid paying any money for.

>>2311563
Thanks, I've been checking up on these generals every now and then, but I've never really seen a breakdown on the individual models. which is pretty much exactly what I was hoping to get. I dont even know where to start when searching for this kind of info. Last time I tried to use any AV forums, all I found were 10+ year old posts with biased information. And none of the current users know anything about old equipment. I actually got banned for "trolling" on one site when I made a post asking about the differences between a few laserdisc players.

I know that medical units will generally have been used less, which is a plus. But is there a downside to them? All of the ebay listings I've seen of those show that they have few inputs. Not enough for YPbPr from what I remember/could tell. Is this normal?

How does one determine the number of lines a CRT has?

Is it just something I can look up in a manual for my model?

>>2311609
I think most consumer models are around 450tvl

>>2309714
>>2309765
>>2309717
>>2309724

KMD = komodo = garbage. Do not buy. I've asked around and sellers that actually answer say it's using composite through both S-Video lines.

Not even sure what to recommend beyond something from retroconsoleaccessories or building your own.

>>2309792
This is a much better idea, but can still be a pain. GL researching stuff :)

>>2311493
Don't drive around first. Talk to the hospital switch and ask for the tech guys - the guys who install and maintain the machines and computers. The computer guys should at least be able to tell you who does the screens. When you get to those guys start talking old tech.

Same goes for anywhere. The larger the hospital or police station is, the more you need to be polite and ask to speak to the tech guys first. The front desk won't have any idea and will think you're a weirdo.

The smaller the place, particularly with medical places, the higher the chances they outsource tech stuff. This means some handyman or tech guy came in and changed their screens out years ago, but that guy may still have them sitting around.

and:
2305593
2305603
2305605

>>2311595
>L4, I forget the specs.
From what I've seen, it's the L5 minus multiformat support.

>I'd rank desirability and availability as:..
Of course, but you need to know what models fall into each category for it to be of any use; And that is where things can get a bit funny.

>>2311604
>All of the ebay listings I've seen of those show that they have few inputs. Not enough for YPbPr from what I remember/could tell. Is this normal?
If a model supports YPbPr, it's generally accepted over the same lines as RGB.
This is an M2MDU for example; Line A is composite, B is S-Video. RGB 1 is RGB OR YPbPr with loopthrough(video out) RGB is the same, minus loopthrough.

Downsides? I can't say whether it's true or not, but it's been said that they can sometimes have more hours on the tube than the picture quality they offer seems to suggest; Supposedly from being left on, with a blank(black) screen for long lengths of time.
It makes sense, but how this ends up effecting things in the long run is hard to say.

>>2311609
>Is it just something I can look up in a manual for my model?
Sometimes yes, but not always. Sometimes it requires a bit of digging to get a straight answer. Usually easier with professional equipment than consumer stuff.
I believe someone mentioned in the past about there being a mathematical way of figuring it out, but I can't remember what it was

>>2311623
Well there you go. I suppose it's possible, but I doubt she'd want to build a custom multicable like that.

>>2311623
oops...meant to link those
>>2305593
>>2305603
>>2305605

>>2311623
>KMD = komodo = garbage. Do not buy. I've asked around and sellers that actually answer say it's using composite through both S-Video lines.

Oh, well should I cancel it before it ships then?

>>2311641
Fk yes, cancel it. Not worth using even if you get it free. Your existing composite cables are far better.

>>2311659
I'll try to although I think it already might be preparing to ship so idk if the cancellation request will go through in time.

>>2311668
Alright I sent a request, hopefully they'll be able to cancel the shipment in time.

>>2311623
>Don't drive around first. Talk to the hospital switch and ask for the tech guys
>hospital switch
Are you saying I should call them? That may be a good Idea, and I'll definately do that with some of the places I'm planning to check. Namely anywhere thats not a standard walk-in buisness.

Same goes for anywhere. The larger the hospital or police station is, the more you need to be polite and ask to speak to the tech guys first. The front desk won't have any idea and will think you're a weirdo.
Police stations around me won't have them, if they do then its because they're still in use. I know this for a fact.
>secretaries
TV stations, photography/video studios, and everywhere else for directions. They probably won't know what I'm asking for, or even seen them if PVM's are there. But they'll know who will.
>security guards
I know P/BVM's get used with security cameras in sometimes, though checking with them is an absolute last case scenario since they'll have a lot of hours on them with static images. I'm referring to literal mall cops here btw, security desks with likely contracted guards. I'd be asking them to talk with the buildings manager/techs to see if there are any spares they'd be willing to part with.
>hospital janitors
Catch all for anyone who works in the building and isn't a doctor or nurse. Goes for doctors offices as well. repairmen, technicians, actual janitors, etc. The kinds of people who work on them or would have seen them in a storage room somewhere.

>some handyman or tech guy came in and changed their screens out years ago...
Again, those "janitors" would know who to talk to in this case.

>>2311639
Ah, ok. I'm the same person, just decided to make a new post in an attempt to get a bit more info on specific models.
Since then I've come up with several places I hadn't thought of before hand. Some of them with /vr/ things other than CRT's. pic very much related.

>>2311542
There are absolutely effects that are meant to make use of the low resolution of a composite signal. Basically any game that uses intentional dithering of color. Trees in Sonic 2, the backgrounds in Earthworm Jim, etc, lose the intended effect on a cleaner signal.

>>2311698
But you don't have to take my word for it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kILeyo1iv0A#t=1m30s

>>2311698
>Basically any game that uses intentional dithering of color.

Just like dozens of Amiga, PC-88/98 and arcade games, but those were meant to be used on RGB monitors.
Like I said, the patterns aren't completely sublimated in RGB, but the effects still works.

>>2311750
What are you even arguing? Dude said they were optimized for composite, which is true. Console games were made with composite in mind because that's what everyone used, not a RGB monitors.

>>2311785
not all dithering on consoles is made with composite in mind. Ecco 1/2 dithering works beautifuly in RGB

>>2311785
>Dude said they were optimized for composite

Which is an arbitrary statement, and a wrong one. If it was optimized for composite this very same technique wouldn't have been used in arcade and many computer games. Why would dithering be optimized for composite on console but not on computers and arcade games?

>>2311808
I'm thinking stuff like checkerboard patterns may or may not have been optimized for composite, since indeed you see that all over the place across consoles, PCs, and arcade games, but Genesis games like Lion King make a ton of use of vertical bar dithering, which you don't see anywhere as often on other platforms, and absolutely does blend into other colors through composite, so those particular examples may be better suited to the argument.

>>2311828
And interestingly enough, there is one particular platform where you do see lots of usage of vertical bars to achieve more colors through composite, and it's CGA DOS games that support composite color mode.

>>2311808
I'm not talking about arcade games because composite doesn't apply to them? So you really think, when developing for the NES, SNES, Genesis, etc, they DIDN'T design graphics based on what looked good on a consumer CRT via composites? Wouldn't that be optimizing for composite?

>>2311835
some did, but not all.

>>2311835
I'm kind of with >>2311867 on this one. It's like with the whole 4:3 aspect ratio thing. Some developers took into account the fact that SNES games display in 4:3 on TVs, but some just called it a day and just drew assets as if there were square pixels because who gives a shit, so squares became rectangles, circles became ovals, etc.

>>2311835
>>2311867
take sonic 1 vs sonic 2/3
1 used composite bleeding for shield, that was dropped in 2 and 3, 2 used flickering, 3 used entirely different pixel art techniques.
Waterfalls also, far less present in 2 and entirelly different in 3

>>2311874
multiplats also, EWJ on snes got squashed because they didn't adapt assets going from 320 to 256 hres

>>2311835

No, what you said is that any games that use dithering was designed with composite in mind. I'm telling you this statement is wrong by telling you that dithering isn't a "composite optimized" effect, it was even used in comic books.

>>2311828
>>2311830

It's true that these vertical-bar dithering effects are less common, but they still work in RGB though. Not as good as in composite according to some, but you can still distinguish another color thanks to this pattern.
The pic you posted use another trick though, as the composite mode when displayed on a TTL-RGB monitor only use gray and black, while the one displayed on a composite obviously displayed other colors.

>>2311878

Sonic 1, 2 and 3 used the same techniques as in dozens of computer and arcade games.

>>2311835
some games also had adaptations or even options to do proper display.
Saturn SFA1/2/3 had flickering meshes that work better on RGB, and saturn Vampire Savior has an option RGB that also turned meshes flickering.

>>2311885
>Sonic 1, 2 and 3 used the same techniques as in dozens of computer and arcade games.
I agree, it's just to show that the same programmers changed their approach to do an effect (the shield is the most obvious)

>>2311947

Nah m8, the fact that they used this very same effect on platforms that exclusively used RGB monitors means this example can't be used as an argument to support the idea that "They used these effects to take advantage of the composite video".

>>2311960
sonic 1 waterfalls and shield effects clearly needs some color bleeding provided by composite (or s-video).
I never seen vertical dithering used in an arcade-native game tho.

Going to pick up two PVM 20M2E's tomorrow, can't wait! My first proper CRT since childhood.

>>2311970
>sonic 1 waterfalls and shield effects clearly needs some color bleeding provided by composite (or s-video).

Nope, they still work in RGB, your eyes does the trick themselves when you sit at 1~1.20m.

>>2312034
Waterfall definitively doesn't work whatever the distance (2-3m), assuming your tv doesn't have fucked focus. Only recently I discovered the trick because I always played MD on RGB and someone on a forum posted a pic using s-video.

>>2312034
320 horizontal resolution isn't enough for these effect to work on RGB

OTOH Kirby effects works because it uses a higher resolution of 512.

I've got a KV-21XTR3 (composite only blegh) and it has chromatic aberration that gets stronger as it goes up the screen. Bottom is fine, but at the very top there's a good milimeter or so of red/blue chrom-ab. Anything I can do to fix it?

>>2312038
>>2312052

Your brain does the work itself. Sure, you can still see some kind of pattern (it's not like they're supposed to disappear), but your brain interpret it as some kind of transparency.
You see through the waterfalls, and see it being animated.
Saying the developers optimized the game for composite video output on an RGB-capable console, while there were 15kHz RGB monitors readily available in Japan even for consumer uses (not as much as in Europe, but still not hard to get), using as argument that they used of dithering patterns (vertical, cross, dot and any other patterns are still dithering patterns, they all does the same thing, just at a different intensity) also present on RGB-only systems, coupled with the fact that the only thing the excessive blur of the megadrive composite video does more than the RGB video does is "wiping out" the patterns, really isn't going to convince me.

>>2312096
I've been trying to say this for years.

You don't need awful composite quality for your brain to interpret transparency.

>>2312096
>>2312102
YOUR brain, not everyones brain.

>>2312123
If you have an inferior brain, that's your problem.

>>2312128
>can distinguish low resolutions patterns
>inferior

Does anyone here know how well this adapter works compared to the YUV one?

>>2312123

I bet you can't read old comics without wanting to digitize it and feed it to your TV through a composite video signal.

>>2312165
says the pleb who didn't have scart nor rgb

>>2312148
i really doubt it
a lot of those converters don't actually convert the signal, it just acts like a passthrough
so if for some reason your TV accepts SCART RGB through component it would work

>>2312183

>implying I'm from murrica

I'm French m8, all my consoles, my n64 excepted, are shipped with an RGB cable.

>>2312204
so you had really shitty tv and/or eyes then. RGB pixel clarity revealed dithering tricks wide open.

>>2312183

I'm French, faggot. All my consoles have an RGB SCART cable, my Nintendo 64 excepted. Nice try though.

>>2312228

Currently using a Sony Trinitron KV-14M1B and those effects work perfectly, while still giving me a picture that is pretty sharp for a consumer TV set. And if you're this bad at reading comprehension, you should re-read multiple times before posting this shit again : of course you see the dithering trick, but your brain still interpret what the trick was supposed to be showing.
See pic related? You clearly see the dot pattern, but your brain still make you see a color that isn't displayed on-screen. That means that even though you SEE the patterns, it's still having an effect on your conception of the picture. They used this technique since the times they were able to start printing colors on paper material -- the patterns aren't meant to be hidden, they're meant to create transparency effects and colors that you can't directly print/display with already existing colors, no matter if you see them or not.
Just stop saying that you NEED to use a composite video signal to see how megadrive games were meant to look like, what you're saying is just an arbitrary statement made from an interpretation of the fact that the blurry composite video output of the megadrive hide dithering patterns, and it's clearly wrong.

>>2312257
except that this is mesh dithering.

vertical dithering like there is in Vectorman, The Lion King, Sonic waterfalls doesn't work at all, and were made with color bleeding in mind.
And that color bleeding also works in S-Video, it's not exclusive to composite.

And dood, even if with RGB dithering tricks don't work, I would still rather use RGB. Nothing beats pixel clarity.

>>2311680

If you're going to ask a security guard, try to make sense, and not bug them with stupid questions, or requests.

There's really nothing more annoying than some random idiot who shows up and wants you to stop what you are doing to ask for directions to somewhere, or something with only the most vague wording possible.

>>2312276
>The Lion King, Sonic waterfalls doesn't work at all,

Except they do m8. You can still see the pattern, ok, but you still have the impression of looking at a color that isn't really displayed on Lion King, and you still have the impression of looking through the waterfall in Sonic 1. That's what I've been saying many times : You see the trick's pattern != the trick doesn't work if the goal of the trick is still achieved.

>>2312298
Why do euros always do "!=" instead of "=/=" ?
A not equal sign has a slash through it, not an exclamation mark.
>captcha: donga

>>2312298
nope. You simply fall more easily into those tricks, maybe because of that small 14" tv.
With a 20" screen, which is not giant, everything is revealed even 2-3m away.

>>2312383
!= means the exact same thing.

>>2312383
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relational_operator

>>2312383

!= is a programming thing as well - it's not only europeans that use it. Hell, I find myself using == instead of just = sometimes (and ending sentences with semicolons, which is a little more annoying). Why get all up in arms about it, anyway? It isn't wrong, and it's not like you didn't know what he meant.

>>2312461
>>2312458
>>2312419
ah, ok its a programming thing.
I wasn't "up in arms about it", I was just wondering why since almost everytime I see someone use != they're a euro, and when I see =/=, they're usually american.

>>2312102
pc98 monitors aren't as sharp as you think they were, and they were often smaller then what we have today.

(dot pitch ect)

posting a screen rip from an emulator's frame buffer is not going show what it looked like on real hardware

you also have to think about signal attenuation.

arcade boards could output composite video, (Cps1 and cps2)

distance talk makes no sense for arcade games because most players are very close to the screen,

you also have to think about the plastic shield in-front of the crt defusing and softening the picture.

composite effects for consoles are just that, "effects" its on a game by game basses.

Sonic 2 looks mostly fine without them (transparency of the waterfall and glass chemical tubes is off but most people wont notice)

Eternal Companions (produced by a usa team) makes extensive use of composite effects (non of the backgrounds/characters blend without it)

Comix Zone is another example (it uses both Square and Line dithering)

Me and my wife found our computer monitor worked well when we bought the Genesis collection on Steam.

>>2312165
comic tone is a total different concept from dithering.

its like "texturing"

>>2312654
I bet it had a bilinear filter applied to the graphics.

that's why.

>>2312257
it would have looked more like this on real hardware.

>>2312724
contrast would have been higher or lower depending on the tube.

plus the edges would have been a little sharper, due to the aperture/spareness settings of the display.

>>2312645

here is another example

>>2298498
>>2298512

Overall the game looks great in RGB/Component
but that one effect takes advantage of Composite video blending. not a big deal for that game.

for other tittles it made more sense (most tittle aimed for or developed in the western market)

I was wondering if you could help me with a decision, a friend was going to trash a few old CRT monitors that still work, and i get to grab one.

I have to decide between a KDS-USA XF-9b and a Envision EN-985e

After taking a tape measure to them, they are about the same size, but the KDS is definitly more bulky by a few inches.

I dont have any experience with CRT's other than an old KDS VS-5 i used to play on during my childhood.

Any thoughts?

>>2312945
Why not get them both?
Alternatively if you have a way to put an image on them (most consoles now have a version of 240p test suite), then test each display.

>>2312945
without being able to look at either of them, I would get the KDS as that's the brand I have my familiarity with.

if you get a chance, test them both out.

>>2313053
those are PC monitors, so he needs a VGA setup to test them

>>2313074
I had a suspicion they were PC monitors, but was too lazy to look it up. Regardless, if you've got a way to test, do so. Google for test pattern images and save them to a flashdrive or something.

>>2312645
>Sonic 2 looks mostly fine without them (transparency of the waterfall and glass chemical tubes is off but most people wont notice)

The waterfall overlay complete with a rainbow over it was JAW DROPPING back when Sonic 1 came out. The game looked like magic, even with Super Mario World being demo'd next to the machine.

>>2312645
>Eternal Companions

Eternal Champions,

arg auto correct.

>>2312810
ah yes, good old SOR2.

The fogging in the alien house looks like ass with RGB.

>>2313089
My genesis came with Sonic 2 as the pack-in

Its also the one most people reference in relation to transparency/blending effects on the gen/mega drive.

I'll have to check out that level you mentioned

>>2313098
>fogging in the alien house

Yeah, I forgot about that. but overall the game looks fine without blending

some games benefit more then others. (pic related)

Did SNES games have real transparency or was that also just a blending effect?

I remember people/magazines at the time saying that SNES was more powerful because it could do real transparency.

>>2311308
Got it today, I can't say it's as good as I remembered. Looks a bit fuzzy but that kind of works like AA with ps1 games.

>>2313104
I meant Sonic 1. Sonic 2 was later, and I don't remember if it had the same transparent waterfalls. Maybe it did, been ages since I played it.

>>2313119
>Did SNES games have real transparency or was that also just a blending effect?

SNES could do blending, but I don't know how many steps of blending it could do.

Early games like Super Mario World used dithering and alternating the dither offset to invert the checkerboard pattern at every frame. The water in like... the first water level did that.

So I'm curious about switchboxes, if anyone here uses them.

I have cables for all sorts of output types: RF, composite, s-video and scart RGB. Problem is, switching these cables all the time is a real pain in my ass.

Is there a recommended switchbox that also supports scart RGB that anyone here uses? Also, should I invest in a powered switchbox?

>>2313053
Just aint got the space for those mosnters.

>>2313082
actually got to try em both, the KDS was definitely the right choice.

>>2313290
>KDS was definitely the right choice.

I had a feeling it would be.

>>2313184
I hooked up Sonic 1 and took some comparison shots.

its not the same level location. but it is a waterfall

>I don't remember if it had the same transparent waterfalls

It used a slightly different technique, some type of "gradient pixels" instead of the dithering bars in sonic 2.

component.

>>2313448
S-video

>>2313448
>>2313451

composite

>>2313453
and the final Zoom out.

I should also point out that not all Genesis or mega Drive models did the rainbow effect. I believe that was a byproduct of certain composite encoders on different models. >>2313184

sonic 1 uses blending effects for its waterfalls, the shield, and the giant glass cylinders in the marble garden zone.

nothing else really seems take advantage of it, but I haven't played through the game in a long time.


>Early games like Super Mario World used .
The water in like... the first water level did that.

yeah I just checked that, with my copy. kind of disappointing because I originally thought that was Super Nintendo using its "superior" video hardware for a real transparency effect.

I'm starting to think we didn't have real sprite transparency until the PlayStation era. ( Sega Saturn didn't have real sprite transparency either, that's why people complain about them using dithering in Symphony of the night)

>>2313458
I should point out, that the effect looks way better in motion.

but I haven't figured out how to make .webm files with my camera yet.

So I picked up a PVM-2530 and two PVM-2030s today. Should be able to post pictures later.

To my eyes, the 25" seems a tad soft. Thinking about selling it to a friend. Anyone have thoughts on these models?

>>2313473
Also should mention I only paid 70$ for all three. Will probably never get a deal like that again..

>>2313473
have you tried adjusting the picture?

also what type of connection are you using? and what game system?

>>2313487
I've messed with settings a little bit. It's an snes with shitty multi-console s-video cable, probably not even true s video.

Regardless, I'm leaning towards keeping the smaller ones. Which one would you keep? Haha.

>>2313458
>I originally thought that was Super Nintendo using its "superior" video hardware for a real transparency effect.

Remember, Mario World was a launch title.

The giant Boos and those green balls in some of the ghost castles definitely used the transparency effect though.

Dragonball Super Butouden 2 also used it when you charged a super fireball.

DBZ Hyper Dimension used it for shit loads of special effects and so did Yoshi's Island, but those used extra chips.

I'm not quite sure how the blending effect worked on the SNES, how many steps of transparency it had, etc. But it definitely was able to do transparency.

The Megadrive could only dither or do shadow/highlight to simulate, well, shadows and highlight effects, by making the underlying pixels darker or lighter. Sonic 3 special stages used shadow, Ranger X fifth level used highlight on the searchlights, and Vectorman used loads of both but then again that game did every trick you could do on the hardware.

>>2313495
well, I wouldn't get rid of anything until you've thoroughly tested them all.

made sure that every input worked, (using real s-video and RGB, or component video to RGB)

try the 240p test suite on them to make sure you don't have any weird of of convergence issues, purity problems trapezoid etc.

>>2313528
>>2313495

once you've found the set that looks best for you keep that one.

>>2313496
very interesting,

are you sure those Dragon Ball Z games did not use special hardware chips?

pretty sure I remember hearing the Hyper Dimension used something non-standard, and that's why it was very difficult to emulate for a while.

thing I remember most about Sega systems is it not having quite as many colors to work with as Super Nintendo. ( and the sound chip differences, but I actually preferred the Genesis sound most of the time)

>>2313536

>>2313540

>>2313542

>>2313545

>>2313548

>>2313528
The 25" has some geometry issues - the screen sort of folds in towards the top. They are all severely underscanned though.

It's worth mentioning that I also have a 32" Wega with a 10-bit 3d comb filter, so the 20 suits me fine.

It's just hard getting rid of one because you hardly ever see models above 20"

>>2313571
right, so use a service manual and fix it, lol

are you going to sell it?

>>2313545
>>2313548
my old crt had a sharpness knob that did just that

>>2313593
video signal is different than sharpness.

(you can see the subtle variations in blending on the character portrait, notice how the dots go away?)

(composite, versus component)

I know these aren't really the best pictures, I need to invest in a tripod. but this is what I have for now.

>>2311591
Thanks! I totally missed your reply too...

Yeah the BVM won't be quite as sharp - it's 600TVL compared to the 800TVL of the 20M4A. I guess i was more asking about colour, and that looks pretty nice to me. I swear a lot of consoles are already pre-terminated (the N64, for one, so probably the SNES too) so your image might looks a nice as it's going to...)

>>2311563
>2010p, 2015p, and 2016p
those are PAL sets, along with the 2010pm, pd & pmd. I presume the corresponding amerifag sets are BVM-1910, 1915 and 1916. Only difference seems to be the option cards they come with and the default fuse. They all use component and RGB (I think) but need a region decoder card for composite. Each set comes with a single card dictated by region, but has room for 4 more cards. The extra option cards are for things like more regions, or auto-setup, or OSD. I've never actually used any of them though, so no idea how functional these things are.

The 2010p/1910 are 20" sets with 900TVL and full convergence controls. 47kg+ each.

The 2015p/1915 are 20" sets with 600TVL and less convergence controls, though more than anything not a BVM. Weigh 40kg+ each.

The BVM-2011p/1911 are 20" 900TVL sets like above, but are the first BVM models with built-in OSD. The OSD does not look user-friendly, though i've never actually used it.

The 2016p/1916 is the 600TVL model of the above, with lighter convergence controls. >>2311591 might be able to tell us how the OSD is to use...?

>>2313609
Date for all of the above is early to mid 90's. 2010p/2015p first, supplanted by the 2011p/2016p in about '94, would be my guess.

>>2313609
Thanks

All the controls in the drawer of the 10 are crazy.

>>2311960
>>2312096
>>2312102
just wanna let you know that you are autistic

>>2313609
>might be able to tell us how the OSD is to use
Can do.
I've only played with them for a bit, but you need either a remote control or access to the control draw which slides out the base of the unit. If you get one of these make sure it comes with the drawer key or you can't do shit with it.

As for the OSD, it's easy enough to navigate. Some settings have to be adjusted with potentiometer screws mounted on the PCB but you can fiddle with most of the settings by one means or the other.
Just watch out for the factory reset option. There is no confirmation, which assfucked all the white balance calibrations and now the unit resets with Internal sync and YUV encoding.

>>2313629
I apparently botched the termination on the RCA jack of the PS1 when I tried getting it to output csync. That's why the image is so bright on the Megaview.

>>2313649
>factory reset option
I told you bro, I told you about factory resets.

>>2312257
oh, you're french. that's why you're a fucking retard.

>>2313651
nice setup. Whats that little guy with the big speakers?

>>2313664
Samsung GX "GXE1395"
Composite only, and the geometry isn't perfect on it, but it's a nice little CRT. Before I got speakers and an amp, it was essentially my PVM's sound system.

Seems to be some sort of grounding issue with the speakers though; They seem to cause interference on the screen at times. Not sure how I'd go about fixing that tough.

>>2312645
(not the guy you're answering to)

>arcade boards could output composite video

No arcade cabinet used composite, maybe these laserdisc-based ones. They even used a chip enabling the NES to output RGB in these Playchoice-10 NES cabinets.

>you also have to think about the plastic shield in-front of the crt defusing and softening the picture.

Though it's not what it does, it's just used as an anti-glare protection. I think you're mistaking them for anti-flickering shield used on monochrome terminal monitors and the kind.

>composite effects for consoles are just that, "effects" its on a game by game basses.

Maybe with American games it is the case, but saying that Japanese devs did it too when there were ads talking about RGB monitors with JP21 ports in MSX and video-oriented magazines AND on TV, on a console that could output RGB, it's not going to be convincing.

>>2312724

Not really, you can still see dithering patterns on a picture displayed on a badly calibrated Amiga monitor, even in 640*200/256 mode, so I don't think you couldn't on a NEC (a manufacturer that made better monitors than any of the Amiga monitor manufacturers) one that is brand new at the time.

>>2313652

Say the guy who think Japanese developers "optimized" their games for the only video signal American TVs could take while they knew better monitors could be used with their consoles in their home market.

>>2312661

No, I'm talking about pic related, which is used to make colors not printed on the paper (because actually printing this olor would be much more expensive for example).

>>2313697
>No arcade cabinet used composite

perhaps the monitors didn't, but the boards could output composite signals.

both Capcom and SNK had to design their games to work with arcades and the home market, I'm not just talking about ports. you already know the Neo Geo had a presence in the home (it was the same hardware)

but few people know that Capcom also had a home version of its arcade boards ( I don't think it was nearly as successful as the Neo Geo)

>Though it's not what it does, it's just used as an anti-glare protection.

yes I know what it's for, but it also has another property that changes the picture. it's just the nature of the plastic used.

>RGB monitors with JP21 ports in MSX and video-oriented magazines AND on TV, on a console that could output RGB, it's not going to be convincing.

I'm not sure we're entirely on the same page here.

the game developers had to know their market, very few people had access to RGB monitors ( the situation might've been different in Europe but I don't really know)

just like today developers have to design for baselines, most games were designed to work on a composite connection. it's just a fact that that was the most used video connection of that era. I'm not saying games look better or worse due to those connections because that subjective.

only thing I pointed out is that "certain effects" work better when composite blending is used.

for most games it's not that big of a deal. for some games it adds more than others.

I'm pretty much fine with everything but RF (what most people in America probably used)

>>2313734
>situation in europe
almost everybody had access to RGB input in their TV's but almost nobody bothered getting anything else than the included composite cables (we'd usually have a three-cinch to SCART converter and plug into that)

>>2313723
right of that picture was printed to a large size it would look really different depending on how close you were to it. sort of like an optical illusion.

games that use dithering on RGB monitors ( with RGB in mind) might have used a similar technique.

because as I said before monitors were usually smaller/ lower res than what we have now, so the effect is not as pronounced.

black-and-white displays of the 80s were much more crisp than the color RGB monitors of the time. game developers of that era knew this and designed games accordingly.

>>2313652
>>2312257

OMFG not this shit again. Get a room, boys.

>>2313736
I think RGB penetration was better in certain parts of Europe than others.

just from some of the game magazines I've read it seems that Germany and France were more into RGB

but the United Kingdom used mostly composite connections (from the magazine scans I've seen of that era).

composite was the baseline connection everybody would have access to, even though developers knew that some users have access to better hardware they still had to design for the baseline.

still happening today.

>>2313697
>hey even used a chip enabling the NES to output RGB in these Playchoice-10 NES cabinets.

right, but doesn't that kind of fly in the face of your games being designed for RGB argument?

the most popular videogame system of the 80s and early 90s outputted composite and RF exclusively. (was the European model any different?)

sure you can modify the system but I'm pretty sure that's a fairly recent discovery, ( plus you have to kill an arcade machine)

it seems incredibly unlikely that any of the games from that period were optimized for RGB

they still looked nice in RGB, and for the most part the connection quality is way better than composite ( because people used crappy cables, or had awful comb filters, or no, filter at all)

it's hard to say, but I'm pretty sure the average Japanese person played games through composite/RF exclusively ( although most of the manga I've read From the 80s showed RF connections)

>>2313697
>They even used a chip enabling the NES to output RGB in these Playchoice-10 NES cabinets.

right, but doesn't that kind of fly in the face of your games being designed for RGB argument?

the most popular videogame system of the 80s and early 90s outputted composite and RF exclusively. (was the European model any different?)

sure you can modify the system but I'm pretty sure that's a fairly recent discovery, ( plus you have to kill an arcade machine)

it seems incredibly unlikely that any of the games from that period were optimized for RGB

they still looked nice in RGB, and for the most part the connection quality is way better than composite ( because people used crappy cables, or had awful comb filters, or no, filter at all)

it's hard to say, but I'm pretty sure the average Japanese person played games through composite/RF exclusively (I think that's true of most of the world actually)

>>2313649
>make sure it comes with the drawer key
Yer I'm hoping i get one with mine. I do wonder if they're all the same... in which case i might beg for a copy of yours if needed ;)

>>2313651
Kya, you around? I finally got onto compiling that list...

a.pomf.se/kkfkzd.xlsx

I listed all PVM/BVM models separately, and most manuals cover more than one of those models. I have a few other trinitrons and more as groups. Most of what I have can be found for free with mb a bit of digging, but some should be new.

Not sure what to do about uploading; mb a zip archive somewhere, if anyone can suggest a good location for 1.5GB+?

>>2313759
Probably all the same.
My BVM-1016P didn't actually come with one, but they key to my broken 1415P's control draw fit the latch.

Not really sure why they even have keys though, as it looks to have only 2 tumblers so you could probably bend a paperclip to fit.

>>2313734
>only thing I pointed out is that "certain effects" work better when composite blending is used.

And the only thing I said is that it doesn't work "better" it's just that with a composite signal "wipe out" the patterns but doesn't accentuate the result because even if the pattern is still visible, you brain still make you perceive a color that isn't actually displayed or some kind of transparency.

>your games being designed for RGB argument?

What the fuck are you saying? I NEVER said they were designing it for RGB, I'm saying tht use of dithering != designed for composite like you guys are arguing. There is no "Optimization for a certain kind of video output" bullshit, they knew many people would be using composite (the guys who bough this console for their kids) and but others would be using RGB (the video-game and/or computer enthusiasts with his RGB MSX2 monitor or High-end Sony or NEC monitor). Do you think the devs knew America was such a shithole when it came to video standards that RGB was totally unknown so they said among themselves "let's make a present to murrican players and optimize our games for composite video output"?

Also, how did we came from "Why does the megadrive and SNES have RGB output?" to "You're wrong, composite is what this console was meant to output!"?

>>2313761
The second green text was meant for >>2313757 though.

>>2313757
>you have to kill an arcade machine
not anymore, there have been replacement PPU's (or perhaps more correctly PPU add-ons since you move your PPU to this board) engineered to give you RGB output with choosable palettes and all sorts of fanciness.

The latest development would be the Hi-Def NES project where they're working on directly generating HDMI signals by tapping the NES CPU and PPU (even the sound is generated digitally, with support for almost all extra sound chips too).

>inb4-flamestorm-emerges-disclaimer
I know the latter chip wouldn't be for everyone (Personally I would probably prefer RGB-output to a CRT) but the HDMI mod is pretty cool technically, and has some unique uses such as being able to use extension audio with flashcarts (which generally don't support extension audio or sound like crap). Also the guy making it is some sort of genius. His videos on youtube are recommended watching.

>>2313761
>"You're wrong, composite is what this console was meant to output!"?

No one ever said that...

>your brain still makes you perceive a color that isn't actually displayed or some kind of transparency.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same things. can you link me to some information that better explains your position ( in the context of video games).

>Do you think the devs knew America was such a shithole when it came to video standards that RGB was totally unknown so they said among themselves "let's make a present to murrican players and optimize our games for composite video output"?

the world is a shit hole anon, it always has been. you just see things through the eyes of a videogame hobbyist. 90% of population couldn't tell the difference between RF and RGB. anyone if you could point the difference is at them, they wouldn't care.

the CRT hobbyists among us can probably appreciate a decent signal. however it doesn't change the "fact" that some graphics were meant for composite output.

(can be used as a cheat for transparency, or can make your game look like it displays more colors that it really has access to)

>>2313767
that all sounds pretty cool,

>>2313769

>No one ever said that...

That's one would understand by reading all these posts.

>I'm not sure we are talking about the same things.

It's pretty clear though, the right combination of pixels of different color make you perceive another color, even if you can still see the pattern. You don't need scientific reports or shit like that, a simple observation is enough.

>the world is a shit hole anon, it always has been.

Yes, but it doesn't change from the fact that Japanese devs never cared about the American market (most of the games they made never made to the US market, and the ones that made it but weren't what SEGA US really wanted to sell were modified on the fly), and that they designed games according to what the Japanese market used. I'm not saying everyone was using RGB in Japan too, but the fact that they included RGB ouput pins on the AV port show that they were willing to let enthusiasts with RGB monitors to use these with their console, and that these people weren't as under-represented as you might think.

>however it doesn't change the "fact" that some graphics were meant for composite output.

No it isn't m8.
The thing is that transparency still works in RGB, you see the mountains through the waterfalls while still seeing the waterfalls? Well, it works then! You still see the patterns? No fuck given, you can still see through. Like I've been repeating over and over : The pattern doesn't disappear != the trick doesn't work.

You should have said that "You prefer the way it's rendered in composite over RGB".

>>2313761
>even though the system shipped with only composite output, and that's how everybody played the games... don't you dare tell me that's what it was meant to use.

>RGB existed since the 80s and even though the NES was incapable of using it until very recently. I know for a fact that the designers had RGB in mind you plebs!

stop taking crazy pills!

(pic related)

>>2313769
>90% of population couldn't tell the difference between RF and RGB
90% of the population can't tell the difference between 4:3 and 16:9 either. So what?
America WAS a shithole when it came to analog video. The only reason for that is refusal to pay royalties to use RGB SCART, as the French invented it and it felt insulting. The US was stupidly stubborn in that regard. Funny thing is that's it's about the same story for chip+pin on credit cards.

>>2313782

>implying I was talking about the NES
>implying I wasn't talking about the Megadrive and SNES like we've been talking about for a day

Stop posting you stupid fuck and re-read the original posts -- no one is talking about the NES.

OF COURSE they designed NES games using the only output it had, but now we're talking about the megadrive and SNES, 2 consoles that have an RGB output.

>>2313786
nice backpedaling there bro.

>no one is talking about the NES.

we're talking about everything.

>the megadrive and SNES, 2 consoles that have an RGB output.

yes they did, and very few people took advantage of it. that's why games were designed with composite in mind.

that's the reason dithering exists on those systems

>>2313783
never heard that story before, sounds a little far-fetched. business decisions are usually made with these ideals in mind.

"can't see any meaningful difference"

"expense isn't worth the cost to implement"

"what we have now is good enough, until we can charge people a higher price for something we own our right"

>>2313791
American ISPs says just the same things today, defending 3Mbps as "good enough". Some got lucky that Google got fed up with it, but it took decades while AT&T and the likes were just sipping money for nothing. Decisions about analog video standards back then where eerily similar to this situation.
In the end, the end-user got fucked in the ass, hard, while some sugary talk seems to happen and sometimes even convinced them.

>>2313781
>still works in RGB, you see the mountains through the waterfalls while still seeing the waterfalls? Well, it works then!

no, no it doesn't.

>>2313448
>>2313451
>>2313453

these images prove your mistaken on that front,

in RGB mode it doesn't even look like a waterfall. it's just a bunch of white pixels. and when it's in motion it's very difficult to see through it.

the transparency effect, only shows itself through composite video.

RGB still looks great though, heck even s-video looks pretty good.

>You should have said that "You prefer the way it's rendered in composite over RGB".

I actually don't, I prefer the way games looking RGB/Component.

but it does bug me when I can see a broken graphical effect that needs composite blending. like

I said it's not a super big deal. it's just unfortunate we have to miss out on certain graphical effects. but I think the trade-off in clarity and color reproduction is worth it (for most games).

you seem to think I'm trying to prove something, but the pictures speak for themselves. I don't have anything more to say.

>>2313791
>"can't see any meaningful difference"
There's virtually none for movies, as they're stored in composite anyway (even for Laserdisc, for which I was sorely disappointed when it came to picture quality). Composite is okay enough for movies, just like the "cinematic experience" of 30fps arguably is. The decision to stick with composite probably came from a board who only thought of using TVs for movies and failed to consider any other usage for such monitors.

Games, however, simply look ugly in composite, and it's very noticeable (allthemore when there's text).

>>2313796
>Laserdisc picture quality
Yeah, it isn't super impressive. It's just was better than the alternatives at the time.

so, all the claims you're making are based on your own personal observations alone, with no scientific data or any other anecdotes to back them up?

sorry but that doesn't fly.

as far as Japanese developers not being concerned about the American market, you're also wrong on that front. they cared very much about the American market. mostly because of the exchange rate difference (back when the American dollar was stronger the Japanese company could make way more money selling goods in America than at home)

only reason more games didn't come out is because Nintendo/Sega held them back ( for quality-control reasons and for censorship)

not to mention the chip shortages common in the 80s.

(the American market has always been the biggest videogame market, that's still mostly true today... but if China ever opens up its death grip on video games, that would probably change overnight)

the composite video standard has existed since the 1950s, the designers were smart enough to understand this and design their games accordingly.

the fact that the game systems could use RGB was just a nice extra for people that can afford it. ( sort of like how HD was marketed in the early to mid to 2000's) Japan used the same NTSC video standard ( just like America).

I would say that the European market was the one that very few developers cared about, ( think about all those microcomputers, that's what Europeans played games on)

>>2313781
so, all the claims you're making are based on your own personal observations alone, with no scientific data or any other anecdotes to back them up?

sorry but that doesn't fly.

as far as Japanese developers not being concerned about the American market, you're also wrong on that front. they cared very much about the American market. mostly because of the exchange rate difference (back when the American dollar was stronger a Japanese company could make way more money selling goods in America than at home).

only reason more games didn't come out is because Nintendo/Sega held them back ( for quality-control reasons and for censorship)

not to mention the chip shortages common in the 80s.

(the American market has always been the biggest videogame market, that's still mostly true today... but if China ever opens up its death grip on video games, that would probably change overnight)

the composite video standard has existed since the 1950s, the designers were smart enough to understand this and design their games accordingly.

the fact that the game systems could use RGB was just a nice extra for people that can afford it. ( sort of like how HD was marketed in the early to mid to 2000's) Japan used the same NTSC video standard ( just like America).

I would say that the European market was the one that very few developers cared about, ( think about all those microcomputers, that's what Europeans played games on)

>>2313790
>nice backpedaling there bro.

Nice buzzwords m8.

>we're talking about everything.

You're the only one talking about everything.

>yes they did, and very few people took advantage of it. that's why games were designed with composite in mind.

Not all markets are the American market. The Japanese video game enthusiasts had an easy access to RGB monitors, and they were the main audience of the Megadrive (seeing how the megadrive performed there, it's only thanks to them Japanese developers continued to make games).

>that's the reason dithering exists on those systems

Okay now you're plain retarded. Why would they use dithering on systems that only output RGB if it's those effect you consider as ?
Now no need to answer, you're just too retarded to argue with.

>>2313794

Yup it does work on RGB, I don't know why you say it doesn't look like a waterfall, it alway looked like a waterfall to me, and I never used the composite output. Yeah, you don't have the same interpolation as with the composite output, but you still see through the waterfall. Like I said : visible patterns != broken effect as long as it's still giving you the .

>but it does bug me when I can see a broken graphical effect that needs composite blending.

Well, some people don't brother about these patterns and enjoy them the way they are displayed in RGB too.

>>2313798

Laserdiscs, when displayed on a well calibrated High-end monitor, are really nice though, way better than most 240p and 480p material you can find on the internet.

>>2313807

Well, just like every claim that games were "optimized" for composite video output m8. Unless you show me an interview where you can clearly hear the devs that they're optimizing effects for composite, it wont convince me at all.
Using as an argument a technique that was also used on RGB only platforms isn't gonna work m8.

>>2313796
>as they're stored in composite anyway (even for Laserdisc, for which I was sorely disappointed when it came to picture quality).

some high-end laser disk players had s-video output ( and adjustable comb filters)

>Games, however, simply look ugly in composite, and it's very noticeable (allthemore when there's text).

Comb filters, help a lot with that. (plus some systems had better composite output than others, NES is notorious for its shitty output, even by composite standards. and the model 2 Genesis/ Mega Drive)

>>2313809
see
>>2311707
1:30

>>2313809
>Unless you show me an interview where you can clearly hear the devs that they're optimizing effects for composite, it wont convince me at all.

I could scan in one of my old game magazines, where the developer specifically states that they were optimizing the game for composite video.

but you'll probably just complain "Oh they were an American development team so it doesn't count"

it was the eternal champions development team (technically an internal Sega development team but still based in the US)

>>2313813
>some high-end laser disk players had s-video output
My LD player is midrange and outputs RGB via SCART (yes, RGB, not composite). It doesn't improve shit. The discs themselves are composite (that's how the format work, they all are, no exception). The player just includes a composite to RGB converter, which actually degrades the picture even further.

>>2313813
>Comb filters
Game consoles work in RGB (save for the NES) and TVs work in RGB too. Why even bother with filters?

>>2313809
>Well, just like every claim that games were "optimized" for composite video output m8.

Dood, I and other said "some games". You're the one saying "all games".

Vertical dithering is 99% made for composite display. Few arcade games use it because with RGB display there's no blending occuring. Dithering heavy games like those from Irem/Nazca use mesh dithering.

/crt/ please help me. I recently got a PVM-20M4A and it's been great until tonight - it seems to be stuck in 50hz mode, it flickers like crazy when I use my Super Famicom, but if I play my GameCube it loads fine and looks great, but if I set Smash Bros Melee to play in 60hz it flickers just like the SFC.

Any advice on how to switch between 50hz and 60hz on the PVM? I have friends over and we're desperate to play Melee.

>>2313824
why not just play smash and in 50 Hz mode?

>>2313820
because comb filters were designed to improve composite and RF video signals. (dot crawl and chroma noise)

that's the whole reason they exist... ( later on filtering techniques were developed for s-video and component, but mostly just to lessen fine line flickering)

>>2313824
We want to play the Super Famicom, I was just using the Smash example to diagnose that it is stuck in 50hz for some reason,

>>2313825
We want to play the Super Famicom, I was just using the Smash example to diagnose that it is stuck in 50hz for some reason.

>>2313830
maybe there's some menu setting you have to redo?

hopefully somebody more experienced here can help you.

>>2313821
I believe Street Fighter Alpha used some dithering for transparency.

(probably several other capcom arcade games did, because they were thinking about the home market... and the home market used composite for the most part)

>>2313827
Yes, but you don't need them if the whole thing is RGB from start to finish.

>>2313791
>sounds a little far-fetched
Nah. SCART is even a French acronym to begin with (the French knew this connector as "Péritel", short for peri-television). Japan used JP21 in order to dodge royalties while the US simply refused to use it altogether (because it wasn't invented by Americans to begin with).

>>2313832
mesh dithering.
and on saturn, it was changed to flickering mesh dithering.

>>2313807
>(the American market has always been the biggest videogame market, that's still mostly true today...)
This is pretty much the sole reason why the Xbox was successful in the first place. Outside of the US, it really has little to offer despite its hardware qualities (it's tough selling shooters with a heavy American bias to the rest of the world).

>>2313759
Neat
I doubt you're going to find hassle free site that'll let you toss the whole thing up; Not sure what mega's limit is.

If you ever run into the actual service manual for the XC3730, I'll love you forever.
Just saying.

>>2313825
>50Hz
Ehhhh.

>>2313824
>>2313830
My M2 a;ways does it automatically based on the signal input and I would assume the M4 would handle things the same way.
When you say it flickers, do you mean that the image it produces is flickery, or the only thing that shows on the screen is garbled flickering?

>>2313836
>it's tough selling shooters with a heavy American bias to the rest of the world
Except for Australia.
We're America-lite. We have some of the highest Xbone sales after NA and, to further drive home the point, didn't get SCART either.
I'd seen the connectors before but no television over here accepts it. Ditto for S-video.

>>2313832
>>2313835
and as I said, SS Vampire Savoir has an option for RGB that changes static mesh to flickering mesh

>>2313834
well, Japanese companies still manufactured TVs that sold in America. why didn't they ship them with JP21 Ports then. that would've given them a quality edge over the American brands.

and they could've made it synergistic with Japanese game systems, thereby being the only way to have RGB in US.

doesn't make any sense

>>2313837
>>50Hz
>Ehhhh.
50Hz is fine, when it's not being achieved by slowing the PPU (and the whole games) down.

>>2313842
Nobody gave a shit about RGB.

>>2313842
the connector probably didn't get ECC/whatever approved or some shit like that

>>2313835
>>2313841

yes but none of that matters because those mesh patterns still become transparent on a composite video signal... which is what everyone used ( except for a very loud minority apparently)

>>2313842
Manufacturers produced what they were told to produce according to regulations and standards in place. Changing a connector board on any device to adapt to another market is mostly trivial, that's all they needed to do (and that's what consoles manufacturers did, too, eg the French NES has a [fake] RGB output board).

>>2313837
Garbled flickering. Just tried my PAL SNES, also looks fine with it.

>>2313843
Not for competitive Melee.

>>2313845
VGA is what Americans instead of traditional RGB signals.

I know RGB is better than S-video, but how much better?

>>2313853
No they didn't. Everyone used VGA for PC monitors.

>>2313856
most people can't tell the difference.

RGB has slightly better color definition, just try both and see if you can tell the difference.

>>2313857
not everyone, some computer monitors used composite, or other weird proprietary connections ( Barco, Apple)

>>2313843
Given the choice of 50hz or 60hz with no drawbacks in choosing the latter, which would you choose?
Especially as someone who grew up with 60hz as the standard, watching something displayed in 50 can be nauseating.

Really, in what situation would you willing choose the lower refresh rate, other than if it's the native output without an option for a higher one?

>>2313856
It's primarily a jump in color clarity and vibrance. S-Video to RGB/Component is nowhere near as large as that of the jump from composite to S-Video.

>>2313856
slightly. TBH S-video is pretty nice. I tried S-video on my famicom with nesrgb and I was very surprised by the overall quality. Only edges are slightly less defined and colors slightly less vibrant.

>>2313857
>>2313853

high-quality equipment used BNC five, which is basically just VGA.

but you mostly found that in the high-end av space, or in professional environments

>>2313861
60Hz, obviously. Even my Dreamcast was in PAL60 RGB (I didn't use VGA until I got a video projector).

>>2313856
RF should never be used. Composite is usually a terrible choice. S-Video is more than okay and you should definitely go for it if you do not have access to RGB. SCART RGB is 1:1 accurate.

Other factors come into play, such as proper calibration of your display.

>>2313873
,component video might be an option too, but if you're in Europe then probably not.

>>2313836
besides Halo and a few other outliers I'm pretty sure the majority of its library isn't made up of shooters. I mostly played fighting games on it so that's one of my favorite consoles for those type of games. also had lots of racing and sports games

And the Halo games actually sell very well in Japan traditionally...

>>2313830
If the PVM is showing a stable picture then it's not the problem. The sync rates are determined by the signal being sent out by your console(s).

>>2313850
Update on what I think has happened:

Basically I turned the PVM off while it was being fed a 60hz signal. For some reason it has freaked out and is refusing to switch signals from 50hz.

I'm really worried I've effectively bricked my TV, making it unable to switch to 60hz. I have an NTSC-J 64 and an EverDrive coming in the mail to... Fuck. I guess I'll go ask the shmup forums, but I'm worried the PVM is buggered.

>>2313883
It is only showing a stable picture in 50hz. My Super Famicom and PAL Gamecube (when set to 60hz) produce a garbled image. My PAL SNES and PAL Gamecube (when set to 50hz) look fine.

>>2313850
Update on what I think has happened:

Basically I turned the PVM off while it was being fed a 60hz signal from the GameCube. I left the GameCube on, and came back about an hour later and turned the PVM back on - this is when all the trouble started. For some reason it has freaked out and is refusing to switch signals from 50hz. Something to do with the on/off cycle, maybe?

I'm really worried I've effectively bricked my TV, making it unable to switch to 60hz. I have an NTSC-J 64 and an EverDrive coming in the mail to... Fuck. I guess I'll go ask the shmup forums, but I'm worried the PVM is buggered.

>>2313887
garbled picture sounds like there's something wrong with the sync

what type of video connection are you using,?

>>2313887
take a picture or a video and show us what's going on

>>2309294
>CRT Thread - Couldn't come up with a cheeky subtitle Edition
How about, "Shine on you Crazy Diamondtron"

>>2313901
I'll have to remember that ~200 posts from now.

I really hope either my memory card or VGA gender changer get here soon; I want to take photos of stuff.

>>2313761
Why do you seem so butt mad over this?

Can't you just admit that the glorious Composit Video master race enjoys graphical effects that you're pitiful RGB based mind will never be able to comprehend?

[ spoiler] lol, joking aside I'm pretty sure the difference of opinion comes from whatever you witnesses first. I'm guessing you played your games exclusively in RGB and that's why you don't understand why someone would view the composite signal / blending effect as preferable [/spoiler]

>>2313761 #
Why do you seem so butt mad over this?

Can't you just admit that the glorious Composit Video master race enjoys graphical effects that you're pitiful RGB based mind will never be able to comprehend?

lol, joking aside I'm pretty sure the difference of opinion comes from whatever you witnesses first. I'm guessing you played your games exclusively in RGB and that's why you don't understand why someone would view the composite signal / blending effect as preferable

>>2313909
not that guy, but I'm a RGB nut, and even I can't understand his stubbornness.

>>2313904
All that's for you dreamcast I assume?

Can that metsubshi really display 480p?

>>2313894
I am using RGB.

>>2313897
Sorry for the late reply, I live in Australia and have terrible upload speed. Here is a video of what's going on: vid.[delete this]me/dqiK

>>2313917
VGA coupler, yes.

Memory card is for FMCB PS2.

>Can that mitsubishi really display 480p?
Yes, 31khz is a-okay. Was able to display SXGA from my laptop, though it isn't the sharpest. If the little leaflet it has is to be believed, it'd probably be possible to milk a 4:3 1080p(1440x1080) image from it, but I can't imagine it looking that pretty. XGA looks fine though.

>>2313931
480p RGsB from the PS2; The reason I want that memory card to get hear already.

>>2313781
Jesus Christ you're an insufferable little shit.