/vr/ - Retro Games

>>2280434
Water

Internet memes.

>>2280434
the shitty physics

Takes you out of your element and changes the gameplay you're so used to.

>>2280441
This

Mario water levels are fun

only fags disagree

Generally speaking they're pretty slow moving and the controls are different from the rest of the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Yw5jkAHgME

>>2280441

This. I sure as hell don't remember having any problems with water levels.

Physics are not nearly as refined as the rest of the game, especially in 3D games. 64 and Galaxy both suffered from this. In the 2D ones it's the same issue but because the physics are simpler it's not nearly as bad. The hate for OoT's water temple is largely due to the iron boots and confusing hints, not the actual water. It's much better in the 3D remake if you haven't tried that.

>>2280506
Physics and controls, I should say.

>>2280450
Seconded. Gotta love that underwater music.

>>2280434
Sudden change of game controls with no drop in the difficulty curve to account for that

Ice levels are the evil ones

>>2280517
Only after Sewer Levels

I can name at least one good Ice level, I can't name a single good sewer level

Water games are better

>>2280521
It's hard to make a dark, gross, stinky environment appealing.

>>2280450
Mario is the exception, still fuck the bloopers.

>>2280524
Some RPGs manage to do this with dungeons, but Sewers are literally cursed and cannot have a good level ever

>>2280521
Jet Set Radio's sewer level was pretty good.

>>2280525
Oh look, somebody repeating what he saw on AVGN. I'm surprised it took this many posts.

>>2280521
I liked the one in Shadows of the Empire.

>>2280554
Sometimes even AVGN is right, though. Fuck water levels.

ppl disagreeing with avgn for the sake of being contrarians are just as bad as the fanboys imo
mario water levels sucked
megaman, ecco and pic related were pretty good though because you got to keep your speed for the most part

>>2280783

Those Ecco land levels were a real drag though.

>>2280521
TMNT

As a rule they're slow, have drastically different (and usually awkward and sluggish) physics and controls from the rest of the game. The developers also often use the water gimmick as a carte blanche to not bother with design and they tend to be rather unmemorable.

That said the Metal Slug water levels were top notch and the Mario ones weren't that bad, they did a good job of diversifying the gameplay considering the age.

>>2280434
The SMB underwater level is the best part of the game ,also DKC underwater levels are good

>>2280434
The only times I had trouble with water levels were in later games like BanjoKazooie. Really any game that forced you underwater for extended periods and had a breath meter. And come to think of it, that wasn't really that hard either. Maybe just that piece of shit treasure chest puzzle in Mario64. You're already drowning and struggling to touch the proper chest in time and fucking up takes even more health away. Fuck that noise

>>2280493

That's not a water level, you retard. That's just a shmup that takes place in water

>>2280523
This. Water games are based as fuck.
Ecco, Aquaria, uh...

That's about it. Pretty great track record right there!

>>2280482

Shittty annoying intros? Can't really blame the levels for that.

>>2280442
This. Alternating the physics and controls (THE most important aspects of platformer gameplay) for an entire level is bullshit.

Although the Mario games somehow made them fun. I don't know why or how this series was able to do that when no others were, but that's really the only exception.

>>2280975
>Alternating

*ALTERING

>>2280757
yes
scared the fuck out of me when i was young

>>2280450
Absolutely right.

I love sucking cock and hate water levels.

>>2280521
Cistern in Tomb Raider

>>2280521
Crash Bandicoot 2

>ctrl+f
>no results for Hydrocity

Best water level coming through

>>2280434
That was actually one of my favorite levels in SMB.

>>2280554
>le epic "you saw it on avgn" meme

>>2281019
>sonic 1: labyrinth zone is an annoying pain in the dick and there's no getting around it
>sonic 2: aquatic ruin zone is much improved and is now designed so that needing to travel through the water is a punishment for not making all the tricky jumps along the high path
>sonic 3: hydrocity zone is fun as fuck even in the water

it came a long way. fuck labyrinth

>>2281130
I really don't know why Labyrinth gets so much hate, especially right after the bullshit moving blocks in Spring Yard. The ones that make you sit there and fucking wait for them to take you up or down. I get that Sonic moves slower underwater, and drowning and actual platforming and stuff, but it never comes close to that level of tedious.

I loved them in Donkey Kong Country.
And that's it.

If I like a platformer it's usually because of how it controls and how the levels are designed, and water levels shit on both things.

>>2281205
the moving blocks in spring yard are annoying but not totally aggravating like labyrinth.

and actually, the first two labyrinth acts don't bother me all that much, but the third one never ceases to make me rage. It's just so goddamn long and by the time you're at act 3 you're already damn sick of the water. And near the end at the last checkpoint there's that bullshit where you have to quickly jump over to the sponge blocks. What's that? You didn't jump on the right sponge block IMMEDIATELY? Great, the whole room floods with water and there's nowhere for you to go. Just gotta sit there and wait for the drowning time to finally kill you so you can try again. And fuck that "boss battle"

I guess it's because in most cases, you just fall and get slowed down instead of being able to move freely in water.

If in Sonic 1 you could keep jumping in the air underwater like in Mario, it wouldn't be as despised. And Hydrocity gets a free pass because the underwater segments are short.

Ecco, Tomb Raider, Spyro series do the swiming fun.

>>2281810
>tomb raider swimming parts are fun

oh fuck no they are not.

any underwater section with an air limit is the opposite of fun. Unless the limit is so generous (or easily refillable) that the limitation feels like it isn't really there to begin with.

Sonic kind of gets a pass on that because every underwater part had shit loads of the air bubbles, the only problem was that the underwater parts played much slower than usual (and the boss of Labyrinth zone was a gigantic fucking bait).

>>2281031
I can't figure out where this shit is coming from if not an eceleb. Mario, DKC, Megaman- all great water levels. The only (2D) games with really bad ones are just shit in general

Because you're having a good time on dry land, you're used to fluid movement, then the game slows down to a grind and you lose the control you had over your character.
SMB1 did it right, the action was still fast-paced and felt rewarding. On the other, non-/vr/ hand, Tropical Freeze's underwater levels were slow, floaty and tedious. It's no fun feeling helpless.

>>2281867
Mario and DKC are the exceptions. Megaman IMO doesn't really count because the water levels play exactly like regular levels except MM can jump higher. This avoids the usual cliches that makes water levels despised

>>2280434
I think it's just the fact that they have completely different controls and/or physics.
This means that the player is basically thrown into a new game inside the game and has to relearn how to move.

For some people, that puts them off.

Also the challenge will be different, due to the new physics, something that would hardly be a threat overwater, can get the player killed underwater. Getting hit by things that would be meaningless overwater will make the player feel terrible.

>>2280521
Toad Man, Pump Man.

But I love water levels.

>>2280521
Silicon Valley

>>2281019
But how do you say Hydrocity?

>>2280434
For me it's because often they have bad controls and movement is slow.

>>2281903
Oh-ver-ray-ted

>>2281902
As much as I loved the game, to me the sewers were the only level where I couldn't have fun in the slightest.
It was scary (especially with its lack of music) and very disorienting as a kid.
I played through it a few days ago when I felt nostalgic, and frankly... It's not so bad. As an adult, I could see why the devs implemented this level into the game.

The lack of music is still unnerving, though.

>>2281019

Hydrocity is held up as an example of why Sonic 3 was when the series jumped the shark though.

I don't agree, but still.

>Tfw scared of drownding in real life

>>2281772
Actually if you go back to the left side of that room the water lowers again. I'm surprised this isn't more well known, actually.

>>2280523
The largest seahorse ever. And is that a trilobite?

>>2280506
I think it's funny that the swimming controls were the best in Mario 64, and they fucked them up in each subsequent game.

>>2280434

While I do hate a lot of water levels, the water levels in SMB I've always found to be good. They did scare the shit out of me when I was a kid though, and playing through them nowadays gives me a tiny bit of a nostalgic terror.

>>2280434
If there isn't an oxygen limit I love them. I have hated timed anything since most games dropped them. Never liked having my pace dictated so stringently.

Then again I'm a great swimmer and have always had a pool and lived near the ocean.

They're difficult and everybody is a fucking casual

>>2280434
The Balloon Fight-like controls

>>2280521

I liked the one in Jurassic Park.

>>2280823
Kazooie had little time under water and Tooie gave you a lot of extra air and all of jolly Rogers had no meter. And the controls are actually pretty nice, aside from when you are only controlling Kazooie.

>>2283070
>The Balloon Fight-like controls

Not a good comparison, Balloon Fight fucking rocked.

>>2285404
Right, but that's not how Mario "should" control.

>>2281894
Toad man's level was pretty good. I liked the way that the rain and the water currents changed up the physics

>>2281873
Nobody has mentioned a bad water level in an otherwise good 2D game yet except maybe Sonic

>>2280434
restricted mobility combine with an oxygen meter

if a game is made entirely around moving underwater it's fine

AVGN said water levels are bad therefore water levels are bad

i loved the dk water levels

also dat music

>>2285430
>Sonic
>water levels
>bad
>implying you don't still have nightmares that your breath is running out and you're waiting for that big bubble to spawn but it just won't appear

>>2286567

This. Jesus Christ, Sonic gave me enough Hydrophobia to last a lifetime.

Mario64 and BK only added to it.

>hating water levels

Someone never got the frog suit.

water level?

>>2281932
Why?

>>2286862

People are dumb?

>>2280521
The one in Bad dudes was on par with the rest of the game. Then again the rest of the game left a lot to be desired.

just gonna randomly drop a waterworld snes ost track to go with all the water
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0H5YoFv09uQ

Hi

>>2280441
what?

>>2286523
NES era mario games never had oxygen meters under water you dumb fuck.

>>2281932
>why Sonic 3 was when

>>2280434
The major fucking problem with underwater levels in games, platforming games especially, is that there isn't enough care put into their design. We're seeing too many of the same tropes adhered to over and over, namely: slow movement, slippery control of the character, and fucking AIR LIMITS. Underwater levels don't have to be this way, but because retro developers were always aping each other, that's how a lot of them ended up.

The games that didn't do this were usually trendsetters in more than just underwater levels, and it showed. Super Mario World made underwater movement very simple and fluid. It's basically tapping A and holding left. Mario never moves too fast or slow, and he has no air limit. It's never logically given why he can hold his breath indefinitely, and we don't give a shit. You still had secrets to find and powerups to fight enemies with. On top of that, you feel completely in control of Mario. This is good game design.

Crash 3 follows similar rules for underwater levels, in that he propels well, can properly defend himself from enemies, and never has to worry about air. Then there's that stupidly fun jet scooter that shoots torpedoes.

Basically, if they stopped designing underwater levels as if the player were helpless and useless in that environment, and gave you a better element of control, there wouldn't be as great a stigma against them.

>>2287881

I agree. I also like what smb3 did with the frogsuit.

>>2280434
I don't mind them.

>>2280521
Apocalypse for PS1 had a great sewer level, actually.

>>2281932
Aside from selling one game for the price of two like a bunch of greedy jews, Sonic 3 & Knuckles is usually considered the pinnacle of the entire Sonic franchise.

>>2281810
>If in Sonic 1 you could keep jumping in the air underwater like in Mario, it wouldn't be as despised.
Not retro, but Colors did exactly that and it was awesome.

>>2287881
>The major fucking problem with underwater levels in games, platforming games especially, is that there isn't enough care put into their design. We're seeing too many of the same tropes adhered to over and over, namely: slow movement, slippery control of the character, and fucking AIR LIMITS. Underwater levels don't have to be this way, but because retro developers were always aping each other, that's how a lot of them ended up.
I wager most developers did this intentionally because they wanted the physics and air limits to be an added challenge.

>>2280783
wow so many opinions

>>2280434
i liked all the Donkey Kong water levels (DK 1 and 2). I might be a minority here.

>>2288782
Don't be absurd, of course you're not alone. The DKC series had some beautiful underwater levels.

It's because you can't jump on enemies' heads any more.

But this:
>>2280450
because the screen only scrolled horizontally, so there was no bullshit of having to tap jump every now and then while descending so as not to hit something and die.