/vr/ - Retro Games

Goldeneye

Runs in a higher native resolution. No disadvantages.

>>2271413
That's fascinating. Do you have any idea why?

I just bought an NTSC-J n64 and an Everdrive, but I guess there's a reason to dig out my PAL console now.

>>2271443
couldn't you just run the pal rom?

SMB1 on NES.

The game runs about 10% faster (9% precisely) and is 50% more fun because of it.

Shadow of the Beast on the Mega Drive.

I think I read here on /vr/ something about certain rare games being PAL native, meaning that the NTSC versions are the ones running at the wrong speed.

Not sure if true, though.

Crash bandicoot for PS1 could be one of these. Also, persona 4 might run at higher resolution with no slow-down too. Don't think there will be that many though.

MD Mr Nutz is too fast at 60hz.
SMS Fire & Forget II is faster, although it makes it kinda fun.

So is it cheating to mention PAL exclusives or are we just restricting ourselves to games released in all regions?

>>2271363
Wipeout 3 Special Edition is the best version of the game, and it's PAL only (and obviously PAL optimized). Better (to some) handling, more tracks (from previous Wipeout games -- it's a lot nicer to race some of the Wipeout 1 tracks with 3SE's engine), lots of minor improvements throughout.

Slightly higher resolution too. 25fps because PAL though.

Dunno if that's the sort of thing you're looking for.

>>2271915
I wouldn't say 100% here though it is huge, some people might not like the physics changes and the FPS drop is still obvious to someone who's played Whipeout 3 before.

Quite the nice version though.

>Are their any games that are objectively better in PAL format, due to frame rate changes/colors/whatever?
Nope. The PAL format has zero advantage over NTSC. It's a very poor format for video games.

Some games have better PAL versions though because of things like bug fixes or that game was just overall better. Like the PAL Indiana Jones on N64.

>>2271363

Every game that was made in PAL regions obviously as they were optimised for it. RARE being the most obvious example.
The strength of PAL could not show really because the higher resolution regarding lines is way above the N64's normal output anyway and hue inconsistencies are highly unlikely with the signal giver being pretty much directly at the TV.

>>2272014
Don't all the Rare games run at lower framerate? Not as bad as the PAL vs NTSC OoT I don't think.

>>2272004
this is a really ill-informed opinion, I feel.
If PAL was the format games were mostly designed for, you'd be saying this about NTSC

>>2272027
that's mostly true, but 50hz refresh rate is shitty no matter how you slice it. Even if games are optimized for 50hz, I'd still prefer ntsc and 60hz.

inb4 pal60

For some example, the PAL version of the NES actually has a functioning DMA function, and wasn't rudimentary like the NTSC versions. I'm not sure of any commercially released NES games that absolutely needed to use DMA to work, but I do know several NES 'demos' are PAL exclusive due to this.

>>2272031
>>2272027
>If PAL was the format games were mostly designed for, you'd be saying this about NTSC
If PAL was the big format then of course I would say it's best. We would have completely different resolutions today.

But as it is PAL signals looks terrible on NTSC TVs.
They upscale terribly.
Poor framerate.
The flicker from 50hz is unplayable for me.

Other than that they look the same.

>>2271765
They do develop games in Europe, so that happens.

>But as it is PAL signals looks terrible on NTSC TVs.

Well, damn. It's meant for PAL.

>>2272054
The best TVs are NTSC.

>>2272037
Yeah, I know. That's why I said it was MOSTLY true.

One true downside being the poor refresh rate. Even if games were optimized, that'd still be an issue IMO

Sorta relevant, but I'm pretty sure Kid Niki was never released in PAL regions because the lowermost 8 pixels were used to store garbage data, and on certain TVs, you can see them changing. If this was put on a PAL TV, you could see them easily. Even though it's only 2 pixels in height, I can see them seeing this as an issue.

>>2271443
Rare are European developers and didn't want to gimp the PAL version like most other releases do? My best guess.

>>2272071
Most every game on NES has garbage data somewhere on the screen. I doubt they took that into consideration when they decided not to release it.

>>2272086
Usually games that have 4 way scrolling have garbage data, typically games that only scrolled left/right or up/down did not. Some games, like Metroid and Little Samson, used both, but never at the same time. That said, when a 2-way scrolling game has garbage data show up due to scrolling, there's probably something seriously wrong with the scrolling engine; the status bar actually jumps in that Kid Niki WEBM.

I've only just started to notice the difference, since I just got a CRT for the first time in years.

50Htz games have this flicker that I can't tell if it's my TV making it more apparent, or if they were always like this and my eyes were just used to it. Now however, it makes me physically ill to watch any game in 50Htz.

The borders, another thing I never noticed as a kid, are also very apparent. any pre-rendered game is just squished, and looks worse.

There are some games that are better in PAL, as pointed out in the thread, but I can't deal with that flicker. I have an SNES with like 20 games I've borrowed from a friend, but I can't fucking play it.

Truxton on Genesis is better. When they programmed that game, they accidentally made the music too fast. Playing the game at 50hz makes it more faithful to the arcade version.

>>2272113
I agree 50hz looks pretty awful with that slight flicker

>>2272071
That wouldn't make them not release a game. Hell, SMB3 is one of the best selling games of all time and you can clearly see things being rendered on the right side of the screen as you're moving along and it looks all glitchy and fucked up

>>2272113

Last year I saw an old CRT screen, and I really couldn't believe that it flickered that badly when I played games as a kid.

Also, CG cutscenes are sometimes slowed down for PAL games, and so is the gameplay in many games.

>>2271915
I was going to post about Wipeout 3 Special Edition but I guess this guy beat me to it.

512x256 framebuffer, double lining to a massive 512x512, then extending with some overscan for 720x576 final output.

Unfortunately 25 fps though.

>>2271867

All regions. With pal exclusives there is no question as to which version to play. I'm looking for games where the definitive English version isn't the US releae

>>2272593
Are there any games where the american version ends up more censored than the european?

Also, why were european games so heavily censored? I know germany acts like, well, nazis when it comes to censorship, but how does that effect everywhere that wasn't germany?

>>2272037
>>2272031

PAL's lower frame rate totally had a purpose in some games though: they could use the extra cycles between frame refreshes for more processes. Don't be willfully dense; you're sounding like a modern PC gamer.

>>2272608
examples?

>>2272608
Like?
Either way, that doesn't make up for the migraine inducing 50hz flicker or the poor framerate.

The entire Probotector series because quite clearly mechas are superior to mercenary grunts.

Pretty sure it wouldn't flicker like than on a 50hz tv

>>2272608
Yeah, this was what I made the thread for. I know PC games on ZX and those other consoles did it, but I was wondering if there were any from NES on that did

>>2271363
Generally speaking, the answer is no. NTSC is faster )60 Hz opposed to pal's 50).

A good example is racing games. F'Zero X, wipeout, even road rash and extreme G, and the F1 games, are all faster on the American settings as more pixels can be on screen at any one time.

Not retro, but an example of a bad PAL port.

>>2272624
Actually beat MD Probotector on every route - more used to the slower framerate now, so playing Hard Corps on emulator feels odd and harder. Some games I kinda think the music sounds better slightly slower - Outrun 2019 is one, Gunstar Heroes took a little getting used to on actual hardware but I slightly prefer it.

>>2271443
>That's fascinating. Do you have any idea why?
PAL Goldeneye is pretty much like the NTSC version but just with a lower maximum frame cap.

The reason it feels equally smooth is because Goldeneye barely ever reached 30fps anyway. PAL's max is 25fps and that's pretty much as good as it got. For that reason, the PAL version of Goldeneye is superior since at least it's higher resolution.

>I think I read here on /vr/ something about certain rare games being PAL native, meaning that the NTSC versions are the ones running at the wrong speed.
Nah, Rare games were actually developed with NTSC in mind. It's just that because they were physically located in a PAL territory they felt sympathy with PAL gamers so actually programmed hell good PAL versions.

>>2272778
The whole higher resolution thing needs to stop. You need a PAL TV to see that and it's a small difference. Not like there are any really great PAL TVs to actually make a difference.

>>2272785
No, you don't understand. Most PAL versions are NOT actually higher resolution. They are just upscaled to 576i, much like how most retro games are not 480i they are just upscaled to that.

Goldeneye is actually *natively* higher resolution in PAL.

>>2272797
Nice pic, it seems the PAL version is actually vertically stretched to fill that higher resolution.

>>2272812
They will both be stretched to scale to 4:3 576i and 480i respectively. The resolutions provided are pre-stretching. One difference is that the NTSC has some black borders and the PAL version does not. A generally ironic turn of events.

>>2272827
>>2272797
240p isn't upscaled to 480i.
The higher resolutions in PAL games don't mean anything. I'm not talking about native or visible resolution. Or is that what you're saying?

>>2272836
>240p isn't upscaled to 480i.
It's possible that the NTSC version could scale to 240p, indeed. But it's not possible that the PAL version could scale to 240p because its native resolution is higher than that, and I don't think 288p is a thing. I'm assuming for consistency both would be scaling to an interlaced resolution.

>The higher resolutions in PAL games don't mean anything
In a way, you are right, since 320x272 doesn't exceed NTSC resolutions, but it's clear that the PAL version has been better optimized . Also its native resolution would scale better to 576i than to 480i.

FOV of the two version is the same btw.

>>2272853
On PAL TVs they're 576i native aren't they?
>It's possible that the NTSC version could scale to 240p
>Also its native resolution would scale better to 576i than to 480i.
I don't know what you mean by that. There's no scaling involved from a NTSC console. Sends the TV a 240p signal.

>>2272862
>There's no scaling involved from a NTSC console
Yes, there is. It all depends on the size of the framebuffer, which is often highly variable. The N64 has a video interface chip for scaling framebuffers into displayable resolutions.

>>2272867
The only "scaling" would be horizontal.

>>2272871
Depends on the resolution of the framebuffer, which could literally be anything. In this instance, yes, the amount of scaling required is minor.

>>2272892
It's always going to be 240p. If the visual resolution isn't 240p then the rest is overscan.
Same with the horizontal resolution. Some games have larger resolutions like 640x240. That gets displayed as 640x480i on the TV.
320x240p has the horizontal resolution doubled I believe.

>>2272912
>It's always going to be 240p
No, it could also be 480i depending on the resolution. N64 games with a "high-res" mode are NOT going to be 240p, but 480i.

No scaling only occurs if the framebuffer and the display resolution are identical. If it is one pixel different, the image has to be scaled to account for that one pixel.

NTSC and PAL differences are interesting though. Unlike Goldeneye, both PAL and NTSC versions of OoT are natively 320x240. This means that the NTSC version doesn't have to be scaled, since it's a direct output to 240p, but the PAL version needs to be scaled to 576i which doesn't fit neatly with 240p.

The result is that while both versions are borderless and the same native resolution, the PAL version is slightly blurrier due to the scaling process.

By contrast, the PAL version of Wind Waker and Twilight Princess Gamecube have two modes (576i 25fps 50hz) and (480i 30fps 60hz). Both are native resolutions - no scaling. A much much better PAL version.

>>2272239
That image is fine into it starts going full nintendogaf on the reader.

>>2272650
i thought you could toggle bewteen those camera levels if you wanted

>>2272937
>No, it could also be 480i depending on the resolution. N64 games with a "high-res" mode are NOT going to be 240p, but 480i.
I thought we were talking about progressive signal here?
>No scaling only occurs if the framebuffer and the display resolution are identical. If it is one pixel different, the image has to be scaled to account for that one pixel.
Adding in blank lines isn't scaling.
240p to 480i is not scaled. Going from progressive to interlaced is interlacing.
The horizontal resolution may need to be doubled.
The internal framebuffer may be different than 240p but the final signal to the TV will be 240p. It'll include the overscan.

>>2272965
>I thought we were talking about progressive signal here?
We were?
>The horizontal resolution may need to be doubled.
That still is scaling, anon.

>>2272981
Doubling isn't really scaling. And it's only applied to the horizontal resolution.

>>2272949
I'm denying that because I'm maximum Wipeout and 0.5% F-Zero.

>>2272953
No, look at the power lines.

>>2272239
>>2272949

>implying there will ever be another F-Zero

The most you can hope for is seeing more F-Zero stages and vehicles in Mario Kart. I also hope you like having Green Planet associated with Splatoon, as it has been made into a stage for that game.

I've been wanting to start collecting more older games, but the PAL prices are ridiculous and now I find out about this shit as well.

I figured I'd just ask here instead of creating a new thread, which systems have these PAL changes?

>>2273235
Nevermind my question, I found out. So this shit lasted even in the PS2 era huh? Well fuck me, guess I will have to work around it somehow. What a pain in the ass.

>>2271363
Superior frame rates

>>2273251
?

>>2273249
>>2273235
You do have PAL60 so it's not all bad.

>>2273235
>>2273249
Wait I'm reading this is even on PS1 games off of PSN? I've bought a bunch of PS1 games off there I've been meaning to play. What the fuck? I've bought a bunch of games off of VC too.

Guess it's all importing from now on, my wallet can't wait.

>>2273264
I thought those servers upscaled the games?
Either way that's just your native standard.

>>2273262
That's not on any retro systems except for the Dreamcast though or am I mistaken?

>>2273297
Beats me. I always assumed it came with games on 480p. So 6th gen.

I mean it's your standard. You grew up with it. Being American I stick with NTSC U/C and J. You're going to need a step down to use NTSC consoles. I know you crazy PAL guys have tons of mods for forcing 60hz on your consoles and then just buy a flashcart I guess. But then you have the issue of 240p. Your TVs are 576i not 480i.

>>2273297
Some games on ps2 and GameCube had it. I remember Klonoa 2 having a 60hz option, and Metroid Prime would only run in 60hz. DC was the only one that had it for most games though.

>>2273342
60Hz PS2 games are not that common. The Xbox library has plenty of 60Hz capable games.

>>2271915
>>2272239
Wipeout 3 SE is not a good example. It's PAL-exclusive, that's different from being "the PAL version."

The PAL version of regular Wipeout 3 is inferior due to the framerate.

Also, I'm one of those people who doesn't like the floatier physics they added in SE, feels like the track designs don't matter anymore since you fly so much. I still emulate it now and then to play the remade tracks though.

>>2273362
Because they were outputting NTSC 480p. By that time PAL was giving up on their pointless standard.

>>2273319
I wouldn't really say I grew up with it. I was born in 94 so I grew up with a little N64/PS1, but mostly PS2/Gamecube. I mean I've probably played a lot of retro games that have been 50hz, but I still wouldn't want to get those inferior versions just because I played them when I was younger.

As I said earlier I've been wanting to start collecting more retro stuff and fortunately I found out about this before I got really into it. I guess I will just get a 480i TV and NTSC consoles. It will be pricey, but fuck if I'm buying inferior stuff. It will probably be cheaper either way because PAL stuff have some ridiculous prices.

>>2273297
N64 also (unofficially) supports PAL60.

>>2273342
PS2 doesn't support PAL60 at all, but some PAL games have a pure NTSC option.

>>2273404
What ever you want to do. I don't know what the retro stuff is like in EU. I just know I don't like PAL.

most Amiga, C64 and Atari computer games

>>2273235
Welcome to hell.
I suggest using NTSC for all consoles. Personally I have PAL SMS, MD/32x/CD and PS1 because childhood, but you should go for 60 hz always when possible, except maybe with the SMS.

Crash Bandicoot 2 has significant advantages in PAL for speedrunning because the player moves faster, jumps higher, has a larger bodyslam attack radius (supposedly, but I suspect they may have changed something more fundamental about the bodyslam code), and some other things. As far as framerate/etc goes though, it's a mere 25 FPS and, possibly as a result of the decreased framerate, the player is more liable to get stuck inside floors and shit.

I really don't get what the hate for PAL is all about. I often play games in both PAL and NTSC, and the only game I've honestly ever noticed a difference between the two is Sonic 1. In every other game I've ever played I only see a difference in the form of the borders in PAL, but most TVs I've used have a zoom picture mode that removes the borders, and even with ones that don't, after about 5 minutes playing I forget they're there.

>>2273805
I guess you've never noticed games running at 5/6ths speed

>>2273812
I'm aware that they usually run slower (although some are optimised for PAL versions, like Sonic 2 and 3), but I don't know how anybody can even tell the difference when it's only a 1/6th speed difference. I can only notice Sonic 1 running slower.

>>2273820
That is false. Sonic 2 (and maybe 3, IDK) are NOT optimized for PAL. They only fixed the music. The game is still 5/6th speed

>>2273841
Oh. Well that just goes to show how I really am incapable of noticing the PAL slowdown unless the music is slowed down as well.

>>2273407
OK
So that's why I got color with PAL60 on the DC but not with the PS2's "PAL60" on my old TVs,
everytime I said it on a conversation all I got was "it worked on all my tvs"

>>2273820

Final Fantasy 9 was made infinitely worse by PAL, entirely because it was so slow to begin with - the 5/6th speed adding to it significantly.

>>2273820
If a game has an already existing problem with slowdown, you'll find it infinitely worse.

>>2274329
I'm the guy you were replying to, and funnily enough, I'm currently in the middle of FFIX, and haven't noticed anything wrong with the speed.

>>2274314

Did both your consoles use the same kind of output cables? Because in my case, the PS2 came out in colour and DC in black & white, because my PS2 used the red/yellow/white cables and my DC had crappy RF.

>>2274463
It's more an issue when you try to play PAL on NTSC TV or NTSC on a PAL TV. Using native resolutions you're not going to see much difference. Especially if you grew up with PAL and are used to that. Someone used to NTSC will see difference though most likely.

>>2274314
Yes, despite what some people think there is actually a difference between PAL60 and NTSC, and while they have the same resolution and refresh rate, they use different color encoders.

>>2271765
A good rule of thumb here, is that if the devs are from Europe/Aus they're more likely to be optimized for PAL.

This isn't always going to be true however.

>>2273367
PAL-60 is superior to NTSC, but it matters little when RGB is used anyway.

What are the Tomb Raider games optimized for?

>>2273235

PAL prices are ridiculous?

When I see what prices have been reached for Amarican versions I can just say that our prices here in PAL land are pretty moderate- at least as soon you go away from ebay. The bubble hasn't really reached this territory (mostly because, well, it's PAL games...). Or are you talking about getting a PAL collection in NTSC land?

>>2276096
Not the guy you were replying to, but I've noticed here in the UK that you can usually find Sega games pretty cheap since they're common and don't have to be bought off ebay. However, at least in my area, it's near impossible to find any NES or SNES stuff without resorting to online shops. Hell, I've never even seen a PAL NES console in real life, and I frequent any second hand game shops I can find. Once you resort to ebay the prices are usually much higher than American prices.

>Reading/watching retro game review
>"This game can usually be easily found for just a few bucks"
>Look on ebay
>£25

>>2272084
>Rare are European developers and didn't want to gimp the PAL version
>literally just region-blocking

What fucking "gimping" would've been done to change it's region?

>>2277468
Most NTSC titles are gimped when they're converted to PAL. Resolution is changed and refresh rate being the main two.