/vr/ - Retro Games

>>2250252
I liked LucasArts's flavor of FPS games. They had more interactive levels and gadgets than Id, even if the technology was a year or two behind.

Nah, Carmack would've made it another boring Doom clone. I personally think it's offensive calling this unsung gem a "Doom clone", it was pretty inventive and focused on the level structure instead of the enemies, which were basically filler (still exciting, because there's a feel of urgency you don't feel in Doom, probably because the flashy graphics make dodging less predictable).
It already had all the improvement it needed (including actual polygon graphics on top of the raycaster) and iMuse, which did wonders to the soundtrack.

I don't really get how you'd want id to make this game, unless you expected a Doom clone and was kind of disappointed.

Oh, and basically half of this game ended up in the cutting room floor, that's not something a lot of people know.

>>2250252
This game used to make my dad vomit EVERY time i'd play it

>>2250292
Assuming this was made after OG Doom, I bet a lot of the ideas they put into Doom II would instead show up here. Focusing on wider arenas (to show off the engine) like in that game would really jar against the more puzzle-like exploration of levels in Dark Forces as we know it.

>>2250252
No, it would be considerably worse. LucasArts had a meticulous polished approach, we would end up with better combat probably but much less cool and detailed levels, which is one of them that makes Dark Forces stand out.

>>2250292
>raycaster
Both Doom and DF rendered the world as a sorted set of convex sectors ("subsectors" in Doom's case). Doom used a BSP tree; DF used a portal graph. Neither used raycasting.

>>2250298
Is your dad a storm trooper suffering from PTSD?

It oozes that pre-prequels charm and I want to love it, but I just don't think the maze like level design is fun. They're cleverly designed, but I hate getting lost and not knowing where to go/what to do next in fast paced FPSs. And the platforming is equally annoying. I like Outlaws/the other Dark Forces games a lot better.

>>2250365
>fast paced FPSs

DF isn't exactly fast paced though.

>>2250376
It is though. Hold down the run button, you go faster than most cars in driving games from that era and combat tends to be over quickly. It's not a twitch FPS though, I'll grant you that, but it's not exactly slow.

>>2250347
He is, all those storm troopers, genocided by ONE dude, more embarrassed than ptsd

>>2250432
Has he seen the films? Because there their aim is even worse, making them easier for the slaughter.

>>2250292
>Nah, Carmack would've made it another boring Doom clone

This isn't credible because so-called "Doom clones" are nothing like Doom.

>>2250252
It'd have had better controls.

>>2250292
Carmack wouldn't anything, he wasn't the game designer he was predominantly tech. Also >>2250518
Doom Clone doesn't mean it's a clone of doom it's a symbolic description that predated the literal phrase "First Person Shooter." That's what Doom Clone means - it literally meant FPS. Not that the game was an actual clone of Doom.

>>2250557
>Carmack wouldn't anything, he wasn't the game designer he was predominantly tech.

Yeah, tell that to Wolf3D, DOOM or even Quake. I don't want to argue his personal tastes or beliefs, but he had hell of an involvement in early id regarding game design choices, removing the stealth aspect from Wolf3D and redesigning DOOM a thousand times over (devoiding Tom Hall of any use he had). He and Romero fought over Quake's general tone (Carmack wanted to please the fan keeping the goth atmosphere from DOOM while Romero wanted Sci-fi), and no matter what Carmack still won because in the end he was the one holding id together and leading it to success.

>2250557
>Carmack wouldn't anything, he wasn't the game designer he was predominantly tech.

Yeah, tell that to Wolf3D, DOOM or even Quake. I don't want to argue his personal tastes or beliefs, but he had hell of an involvement in early id regarding game design choices, removing the stealth elements from Wolf3D and redesigning DOOM's gameplay a thousand times over (devoiding Tom Hall of any use he had). He and Romero even fought over Quake's general tone (Carmack wanted to please the fans keeping the goth atmosphere and arcadeish gameplay from DOOM while Romero wanted a sci-fi adventure), and no matter what Carmack still won because in the end he was the one holding id together and leading it to success.

>>2250252
I just started playing and I think no, it wouldn't have been.

I've been very pleased by the Star Wars-y feel of the game. The film references are done right and placed right.

I'm not an FPS connoisseur so maybe it would be better in that regard but it's hard to imagine id delivering a better Star Wars game.

>>2251221
>better Star Wars game
It pretty much comes down to this imo. id would've likely made a better game gameplay wise - but it wouldn't feel like Star Wars...

There is some meh enemy AI and designs in DF, but they fit the feel of the movies.

>>2250597
>(Carmack wanted to please the fans keeping the goth atmosphere and arcadeish gameplay from DOOM while Romero wanted a sci-fi adventure

Other way around, bub

See: Daikatana, Quake 2 and think about who made each one.

>>2251268
>There is some meh enemy AI and designs in DF

You serious? Dark Troopers were pure nightmare fuel, the way they moved and sounded like, first form could easily be on par with Revenants for the scary factor alone since they deflected lasers and moved at crazy speeds. Form 2 runs circles around you while shooting the most OP projectile in the game. I agree, the rest of those aren't exactly extraordinary, but they're supposed to be realistic, so I'm just going with what you said about the feel in the movies.

>>2251320
Nah, read a lot of interviews some time ago and I'm pretty sure Carmack was the conservative guy around there. Even I'm wrong about the tone (and I'd gladly accept an url to an interview about that), Romero wanted to push the gameplay forward, while Carmack wanted to keep the Doom tradition so that players knew what to expect.

>>2250252
id would have kept and released the source, so yes.

>>2250252
was this made on the same engine as Duke 3D?

>>2252782
No, in-house Jedi Engine by LucasArts.

>>2250298
Same here. My dad stopped playing FPSes because this game made him sick.

>>2251771
just keep telling yourself that that makes it better

>>2251268
>meh enemy AI
Dark Forces' AI is nothing special, but it's about the same as Doom's and better than, say, Duke 3D. I only call attention to this post because I know that DarkXL makes the AI pretty sucky, so if anyone if playing Dark Forces with DarkXL and thinks the enemies are idiots, that's why.

It makes me sad that DarkXL is apparently a lot of people's introduction to DF because they can't stand DOSBox and low resolutions. It really kinda screws up the game.

>>2252958

>DarkXL makes the AI pretty sucky,

Really? Never played it, what's the difference there?

>>2252994
Doom and Dark Forces don't have any "pathfinding," but they do have AI behaviors that make them bump into walls and head off in sideways directions so they tend to find their way around corners and make it to the player's location. In, DarkXL, the enemies walk straight into a wall that's between them and the player and will keep doing so until you move and give them a clear path, they don't wander.

Last I checked, DarkXL also makes them blind and deaf beyond 100 feet or so. It's really easy to see when you go outside in the first level, you can see far away stormtroopers standing like statues until you hit them or move closer. In the original game they wake up from much farther distances.

The krayt dragons are severely nerfed, they move, attack, and animate MUCH slower and can be punched to death with ease.

The thing to remember about DarkXL is that it's NOT a source port, it's an attempt at reverse-engineering the original's game behaviors which may involve guesswork or completely different methods.

>>2250298
This game and hl2 causes serious motion sickness for me. The darkxl mod did help it though.

>>2252958
AI was bad to begin with. They would all stand in position until you made them notice you, like doom. Then they would shoot, sometimes do some random walk cycle, and shoot again.
It is not Darkxl's fault. I think that all Darkxl did was make it more noticeable for people to see further away and the problems of early fps games in general were more noticeable.

>>2253035
No, DarkXL makes the AI significantly worse. See:
>>2253021

>>2253042
It just sounds like the problems were with higher resolution when the game was not made to be made at that resolution.
Who knows, but there is actually no documentation to reference
http://www.darkxl.df-21.net/docs.html

>>2253021

>The krayt dragons are severely nerfed, they move, attack, and animate MUCH slower and can be punched to death with ease.

This is a borderline bugfix imo, like how the seven platforms puzzle in "Colony Ship For Sale Cheap" in the original Marathon got nerfed in Aleph One. Dragons are decent miniboss and definitely mix it up from the average DF enemy, but a three-dragon fists-only final-destination fight to start the level is just bullshit, sorry. But the rest of those changes sound pretty shitty

>>2253067

>the seven platforms puzzle in "Colony Ship For Sale Cheap" in the original Marathon got nerfed in Aleph One

Actually this got changed back like...two years ago or something, current M1A1 does not have auto-stopping platforms there

>>2253021
Other problems I'm noticing:
>mouse droids don't wander and can't be destroyed
>explosions don't have physics, they don't launch you or enemies
>secondary fire for thermal detonator (timed mode) isn't implemented so you can't bounce it around
>dianogas are much slower and barely seem to hunt for you, I had to run into them to get them to attack me, plus they are easier to kill
>practice droids don't seem implemented at all, can't find a single one
>audio positioning is glitchy and sometimes ping-pongs

A lot of these problems seem related to animation speed. The dianogas and ree-yees animate much slower than in the original game, which makes their attacks slow, aside from looking bad.

>>2253056
Dude, I am not stupid, anyone that fires up the game in the different versions can see these problems plain as day. It has nothing to do with the resolution. I applaud the DarkXL guy for attempting such an ambitious project, but people are treating it like a Doom source port that makes everything "just work," and it's not. It's buggy and makes the game significantly worse.

>>2253067
>a three-dragon fists-only final-destination fight to start the level is just bullshit

Even on Hard you only have to kill one dragon to open the door. The problem with that area is the obtuse gating system they used afterward: there are nondescript lines that, when the dragons cross them, lower the platforms you need to reach the key. So you either have to be superfast, grenade jump to the key, or kill enough of the dragons that you can hit the switch and hope the one or two left don't wander over the trigger line.

If you want to make that area easier, remove those triggers, don't make the dragons a joke.

>>2252958
I didn't even want to play in high definition or something, but that WASD+Mouse looked terrific. Dude said we were even going to switch to the original render/resolution at any time, I was looking forward to that since it looks especially bland with GL. I wonder if he was also going to support 4OP FM music, it fit the startling atmosphere much more, when I think DF I think of that haunting music.

http://xlengine.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1042

Apparently developer hasn't updated his blog months and doesn't really like going open source so we may as well kiss DarkXL goodbye for the time being.

>>2253067
>This is a borderline bugfix imo

fire_emblem_casual.jpg

>>2252917
...Are you saying that id releasing it's games' source is a bad thing?

>>2253024
Have you tried toggling head wave (F6)?

>>2253035
>They would all stand in position until you made them notice you, like doom.
I wouldn't call that smart or realistic behavior, but I wouldn't call it "bad". It can be fun to get the drop on enemies sometimes; adds variety.

Do you mean to say that they're blind and don't react to a player right in front of them? I'm pretty sure that that's not the case (except in dark areas, like the beginning of mission 2).

>>2253186
>I didn't even want to play in high definition or something, but that WASD+Mouse looked terrific.
Have you looked into the Macintosh port? (It has sample-based music, too.)

>I wonder if he was also going to support 4OP FM music, it fit the startling atmosphere much more, when I think DF I think of that haunting music.
Could you elaborate on what that is? Is is something different from how Gog's Dosbox setup plays the music?

>>2253072
Isn't M1A1 obsolete anyway? I thought I read that AO now supports the original M1 game data.

>>2253961
>Have you looked into the Macintosh port?

I actually wanted to emulate Macintosh computers for various reasons (I still have lots of floppies I got for free), but when looked into emulators, I could only find payware (and the OS ROMs were also hard to track), so I kinda lost interest. I know the Mac port of DF features sample music and 640x400 resolution so it is really interesting, but settable keys and mouse on both axis too? That would be amazing if it did.
I also wanted to play other LucasArts adventure games which got a Mac port (I don't think those made it to the internet though, at least not exact rips of floppies/CDs, and I'm not spending tons of money to buy a legit copy). Could you point me to the right direction?

>Could you elaborate on what that is?

It's the default setting for Soundblaster 16 music, it uses the OPL3 FM chip from Yamaha (kinda like the Genesis' OPN2, but different in many aspects), as opposed to sample based music or wavetable synthesizers. I didn't check the GoG version but if it works like the Steam then it's already set to use the FM music, which totally makes the game for me. It has much more character than the bland (although "better" sounding SC-55/MT-32) and makes the whole game seem like it's big deal.
I also created my own soundfont that could patch in through GM using FluidSynth, it uses sample instruments which I thought fit the game really well but you need a certain build of DOSBox to enable FluidSynth.

Why didn't you bump the thread at least once? You could have also condensed all the answers into one post. I don't want this thread to die just yet.

>>2253946
>dark areas
Oh hey, that's another thing DarkXL messes up. Enemies are no longer affected by darkness like they are in the original. Which is something I didn't even realize the game accounted for until recently, I guess I always turned on my headlamp in dark areas instead of trying to sneak with night vision.

>>2254007
I didn't realize the thread was at risk. I usually bookmark a thread and then check for updates periodically, so it doesn't matter much to me where it appears in the thread list or catalog.

I think it's easier to keep track of conversations when separate posts are answered separately.

http://macintoshgarden.org/author/lucasarts seems to have a number of games, although I haven't tried the download links (except for Secret of Monkey Island years ago). Have you tried there?

What payware emulators did you found? SheepShaver seems to be free, judging by the links at http://www.emaculation.com/doku.php/sheepshaver_setup.. There's also a link leading to disk images for System 7, which I'm pretty sure is all that's needed for DF and the SCUMM games.

I also searched Google for "macintosh rom image". One of the first results was https://archive.org/details/mac_rom_archive_-_as_of_8-19-2011.. Under the logic that older CPU = simpler instruction set = faster to emulate (I have no idea whether that's true), you could try the "Power Mac 6100 & 7100 & 8100" ROM.

>>2254496
That's another thing that puzzles me, reading the various briefings Jan often mentions "stealth", because some places were imperial fodder nightmares. Yet it doesn't seem like stealth is ever an option, unless you count those dark areas (but the way yes, I checked the manual and enemies are not supposed to notice you while in the dark unless you bump into them) or those spotlights on Coruscant, you could argue she was referring to the latter, but hell if DF wouldn't have benefit from a stealth system, enemies even have their own seek/do not seek routines which iMuse constantly reads to change the music accordingly.

By the way, did everybody ever look into the "dynamic difficulty" system LA had going for? I could SWEAR enemies popped out of nowhere when you played too well (or toggled super shield). Is this an actual mechanic? What happens if you play bad?

>>2254550
A better version of stealth would have been getting a hold of storm trooper suit or officer suit. It's not like Kyle didn't know shit about how to act like one given that he was once an imperial officer himself.

>>2254550
This is the first I've heard of "dynamic difficulty"; are you quoting some source? There are generators that produce enemies out of nowhere when you're not looking, but I've never heard of it having to with Super Shield or how well you're playing.

>>2254550
I think the mention of stealth is mostly just for flavor and the secret-agent nature of your missions, in the same way that you "infiltrate" bases through the air ducts or whatever, even though you end up blasting 200 guards by the end anyway. The game ignores how silly it would be for ONE GUY to single-handedly depopulate both the Executor and the Imperial City. It's funny to think about it being canon, though.

>>2254550
>dynamic difficulty
I have never used Super Shield, but having played a shit ton of DF I'm fairly positive there is no dynamic difficulty adjustment, ever

there are some places where enemies get respawned as you backtrack though the level, but it's still a set number of them total

I know some fan missions have infinite spawns in rare locations but I don't believe the original missions ever used that

Guess this the best place to ask since it's relevant.

I'm playing Dark Forces 2 and I've managed to get it fullscreen and pretty resolution but my skyboxes are FUCKED. anyone have a suggested fix? Or know which file I should change/download a "texture pack" for skyboxes?

>>2254548
Whoa, thanks. That site is amazing.

>>2254607
That would make it too easy though, unless they planned a mission where you infiltrated an imperial complex by disguising as a stormtrooper, then once you completed the main objective there's a cutscene where you're being found out and have to escape from there with all the imperial troopers out to get you. That would have required some major engine overhauling but who knows, maybe something like that was planned in one of those dozen missions that got scrapped.

>>2254614
I'm quoting no source, experienced it in the game myself a couple of times. I think one of them was level 12, the one with the cantina and rotating platform. I was playing on normal/hard if I recall, and made a mess with stormtroopers at the beginning without getting hit once, and since I like to clear levels out of anything killable/breakable I made sure no corner had hidden enemies or tanks. But then I heard a shoot out of nowhere and there was an enemy I didn't kill. I instantly thought he came in from the floor below but there were no enemies there and all doors/elevators were sealed shut and I heard no noise.

This kept on for what I think were 8 stormtroopers out of nothing. Then I enabled the map cheat and realized they were literally spawning inside narrow corners when I wasn't looking there. I think this happened only once when I was a kid, on level 5. I killed the dark trooper boss and went for a walk on those passageways where you find extra supplies, and found ANOTHER DARK TROOP standing there, waiting for me. I noped the fuck out and shut off the game. "That'll teach me to not wander around and listen to Kyle's advice". Make of that what you will, I even checked the map using Wedit, and I can't quite wrap my head around the game's scripting, but I didn't notice anything out of place.

>>2254615
Maybe the game initially had a stealth system, but they couldn't get it to work properly so they just commented it out of the source or something. It would make sense since there's some unused content in the game, like extra music cues for bosses that never play (and for the better, since they were kinda lame and unfinished).

>>2254620
>there are some places where enemies get respawned as you backtrack though the level

I know about that, the most common example is level 2 once you take the prototype weapon. But that is just normal scripted behavior, this >>2254656 certainly wasn't. They spawned in my same room/sector, with no clear entrance (they actually spawned on corners). If that's not a difficulty bumper I don't know what it is, because it certainly isn't a "quit fucking around a get on with the game" on the developer's part cause that'd be stupid. If I clear a room I expect it to be cleared, not filled with respawning enemies when I'm not looking.

Maybe you should try the super shield on level 12 if you don't feel like you can avoid hits.

>>2254625
DF2 is extremely buggy with modern hardware, and not just because of graphical glitches. I say you could give up video acceleration and go for software mode, that way it'll look bad (not too bad though) but at least it'll look right.

>>2254656
>unless they planned a mission where you infiltrated an imperial complex by disguising as a stormtrooper, then once you completed the main objective there's a cutscene where you're being found out and have to escape from there with all the imperial troopers out to get you.

Or you know... you walked into some suspicious circumstances and they were all "Hey you, stop. Who the fuck are you? I've never seen you before? Do you have authorization? Show me your papers. I said your papers not your blaster you idiot."

>>2254673
I've had it running fairly well around level 9 or so right now, I think I tried to add a texture pack at some point which may have fucked the skybox. Not sure though, gonna try a new texture pack fuck it

>>2254685
new texture pack didnt help fuuuuuuuck. it seems like a transparency issue along with the skybox. at least its playable

>>2254707
it burns!

btw this game is fucking god tier. Can't wait to play Jedi Knight. I played Jedi academy at some point already which was kinda cool

>>2254675
To be fair, that sounds like mission 6, while defeating the purpose of air ducts.
It also sounds like http://www.df-21.net/halloffame/aons.html which is one of my favorite missions of all time, even if it's not really stable and crashes a lot. With a game you can't save while playing, that's pretty bad.
But the whole premise of holding your own against random smugglers while stormtroopers and townspeople minded their own business unless provoked really impressed me. Dark Forces definitely has the power to pull off the disguise mission you mentioned to a certain degree of accuracy.

Did you also try the secret base remake on http://www.df-21.net/downloads/contests.html ? I was totally blown off. If almost felt like a mixture of DF2 and MGS, it would've really gone well with stealth mechanics even if that's not what the level was intended to be.

I didn't try too many levels because of several reasons, but I tend to dislike the sandy or JK-like ones (save for a couple). I'm more of a indoor missions kind of guy.

>>2254710
well the sky is fine on this level, must just be the transparency fucking something. Oh well, no point in complaining considering how shitty this is to get running in the first place

>>2254717

>>2254707
>>2254710
I'm no expert but that looks like it's missing some resource and just draws the void instead, that's why you get that effect. Why don't you just play the retail game without any custom texture packs?

>>2254717
>>2254719
Dude really, try out the unmodded game and see if that happens.

I think I've gotten it back to vanilla as much as I can, dont see any other files with dated past 1997

>>2254735
Whoops, then unless you can fiddle with your card's backwards compatibility settings (if any) then it's software mode until the next level. Sorry.

>>2254550
I checked, and Jan only mentions "stealth" in briefing 6 (Detention Center). I'll admit that I can't think of a place in that level where it applies, though. (Caution and using cover are important, but they're not the same thing.)

Similar terms include "infiltrate" (textcrawl; briefings 4 and 8), "try not to stir up the local bounty hunters" (9), and "stay out of trouble" (14).

You might be remembering more mentions from fan levels, the manual and strategy guide, or out-of-game discussions.

>>2251320
daikatana was sci-fi though

>>2253186
>WASD+Mouse
According to a guide on Steam (http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=286364447)), you can use a program called GlovePIE to map mouse movement to the keyboard. I'm not sure I can see it working as well as built-in mouselook, but it might be worth trying.

>>2252917
> doom runs on approximately 30 platforms
> dark forces runs on 1

>>2250557
>That's what Doom Clone means - it literally meant FPS.

Back in the early 90s, most Doom Clones actually were like Doom. Shoot stuff, pick up health/ammo, pick up a set of keys to advance, maybe press some switches. Very few of them had extra gameplay, and even the ones that did had terrible performance or looked awful.

I mean how many of you remember games like Fortress of Dr. Radiaki? THAT was a Doom clone.

>>2254713
>dislike the sandy

I was checking the maps just now and I found many desert maps I remember liking so I guess I can bar sandy out of my dislikes, but there are some levels which go all out with the palette without keeping a consistent tone, and that kinda irks me.

>>2254656
>>2254675
>That would make it too easy though, unless they planned a mission where you infiltrated an imperial complex by disguising as a stormtrooper, then once you completed the main objective there's a cutscene where you're being found out and have to escape from there with all the imperial troopers out to get you.
It wouldn't have to be a cutscene or elaborate scripted sequences; just explain in the briefing that completing a particular objective will blow your cover, at which point you'll have to shoot your way out. At most, maybe a unique "Hey! Stop that!" voice clip.

(Examples: Fortress Quadrigon, Red Faction.)

>>2254713
I didn't have any crashes with Assassination on Nar Shadaa, fortunately. I wonder if it has anything to do with me using an older comp, or maybe DOSbox settings.

And yeah, the SECBASE remake is great! I know it's the first level in the original game so it had to be fairly easy, but he did a great job of making it seem like a high-security facility that was well-defended and hard to get into.

For indoor missions, you might like Tie Defender Base. It starts in an outdoor canyon, but is mostly base-themed. Very tough and long, really made me glad for having multiple lives and you have to scrounge for supplies. But again, it captures the feeling of "this place is high security."

>>2254656
That just sounds like how generators are supposed to work. To quote the strategy guide:

"If you try to eliminate every trooper in this area [of mission 5] (when you're playing the hard level) you won't make it. The thugs tend to regenerate."
"Quick regeneration of the enemy becomes in a standard in [mission 9] and the remaining missions. That means you must work quickly in each area; otherwise, you waste ammo and risk your life unnecessarily."

If there is dynamic difficulty, it'd be implemented in the game engine and not the level data.

>>2254673
The game does have a stealth system; enemies don't react to you if you're behind them or in darkness. It's not made mission-critical at any point, but I'd call that a good decision considering the length of the missions and the lack of mid-mission save.

>lame and unfinished
First I've heard that; I liked them (and was glad to read that Dark Forces Mod was going to implement them).

As for DF2, I used to play in (640x480x8) software mode just so I wouldn't have to wait for the screen mode to switch whenever I entered or left the menu. That doesn't seem to work on my current PC, though (or maybe it's a problem with the Gog version of the game).

>>2254710
>Can't wait to play Jedi Knight
...Do you mean Jedi Outcast?

>>2254713
How is it like mission 6 in particular?

Is Barry Brien's Secret Base remake the one you mean? I think I played that when it was new, but I don't remember details; just that it was impressive and highly reminiscent of the Jedi Outcast demo. (Still haven't played MGS yet.)

>>2254764
2, but yes.

>>2254880
The mac version runs in 640x480? Damn... that would be nice.

>>2254890
It might be emulable; see >>2254548. (The downsides include that custom music won't work as well or at all, and custom HUD elements meant for the DOS version won't look right.)

>>2250376
>>2250365
I found the best way to play Dark Forces is at full speed all the time, with few exceptions. There is a flow to the levels that you fall into when going super sanic.

I like how there is synergy between the enemies and the maps. And the traps! Like dat pit in the smugglers den, surrounded by bounty hunters that shower thermal detonators down on you.

>>2250292
>including actual polygon graphics on top of the raycaster

did this game use a raycaster? cause doom didn't

>>2254764
>>2254880
>>2254890

ps1

>>2255181
No, it uses a portaling system like Build.

You are right though, I have seen a lot of people calling Doom a raycaster for some reason lately. Too many people reading bad wiki pages.

Guys, your discussion reminded me of a video I saw once, one showing a hallway that went on into itself, like two different rooms but in the same space. Anybody know the name or where I can read more about how that works in Build?

>>2255225
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gev9adS9GTc

A combination of portals (in the rendering sense, not a teleporter) and a map format/editor that won't complain. This of it like this: the engine is using the doorframe, or the end of a hallway, like a window. The info for the portal says "Room A is through this door, so render Room A if the player is looking there / moves through there." Similarly, it knows "Room B is through this hallway." It doesn't matter that these spaces wouldn't fit in reality, since the player can only look or move through one gateway at a time, there's never any conflict.

When you're in the editor it gets a little messy because the 2D lines you're drawing can overlap, but in the 3D, it's all about those portals acting as control points for what gets shown.

>>2255254
Hey thanks man, much appreciated

>>2250292
>Oh, and basically half of this game ended up in the cutting room floor, that's not something a lot of people know.
Go on...

>>2255207
Huh; TIL.

>>2255272
From the Official Strategy Guide, page 204:

>[Lead artist Justin] Chin started writing on a Thursday and produced the first design document the following Tuesday. It contained background sketches of major characters, including [Kyle] Katarn and General Mohc (the bad-guy creator of the dark troopers), as well as descriptions for 32 missions.

>[...]

>...Chin sketched hundreds of map and puzzle sequences, situations that players would abruptly run into and immediately react to -- or die. He gave these ideas to the level designers who would bring them to life on the computer and develop their own ideas. They gradually scoped out the "walk-through" designs of the missions, which were cut from the original 32 to 14 because of time and space constraints.

(See also: http://home.comcast.net/~ervind/dfearly.html))

>>2255290
Relevant page.

>>2250298
Ditto, I just could not handle this game. Or Descent.

>>2255296
I don't interpret that as saying they had 32 missions semi-completed before chopping them down to 14. It sounds like he had 32 IDEAS that they narrowed down. Although there is that Star Destroyer map...

It's interesting to read this and compare the process to Doom. Very professional and assembly-line style here. Romero made a brief comment about this on the recent "Dev's Play" video, actually, something about how Dark Forces had dedicating texturing + detailing level artists, whereas in Doom people just made their maps start to finish themselves and were responsible for everything.

>>2255290
If only someone started a game company where designs were prioritized without compromise.

>>2255309
FYI if anyone wants to play a map that attempts a similar-looking Star Destroyer layout, try Assassinate Darth Vader. Easy mission but nice architecture.

>>2255318

>>2255318
>>2255330

R.I.P. "DESIGN IS LAW"

Bumping to whine about DarkXL a little more. Maybe it's configurable, but the default FOV is worse (i.e. lower) than the original game's. Everything looks zoomed in. Whyyyyyy.

>>2254550
>it doesn't seem like stealth is ever an option

Things that the strategy guide defines as "stealthy" tactics:

>Look for cover, hug walls, creep around corners, crouch, and blast defenders on the sly. Toss grenades into darkened openings, drop motion-detection claymore mines at the feet of doors, and generally look before you leap. [Use] safe, well-calculated attacks.

>>2255191
Since no one replied: thanks for the reminder. Never played it myself, but apparently it has its own version of the music tracks. (Possibly also of interest to >>2253186.)

(Captcha: rtyum. No, I don't think DF would be a good engine for a Metro demake.)

>>2258275
>crouch behind cover, point your gun in the direction you want to shoot, then dodge out, strafe, and dodge back.

>>2258280
>subreddit
damn it, outed
stupid Chrome bug

>>2252958
I only use DarkXL because fuck not being able to use the mouse to look around. I just can't get my fingers to use the keyboard for moving and camera control.

>>2258474
Huh? You can use mouselook in vanilla DF, you just can't look up and down (which you don't really need to do anyway). You can still map WASD as you normally would.

Its more fun than doom, so no.

>>2258474
See >>2253961 and >>2254761; both better options given DarkXL's bugs and inauthentic elements.

>>2258502
Mouse support is not mouselook. Mouselook specifically refers to Quake style looking up and down with the mouse traditionally by holding a button. Freelook (mouselooking without having to press a button) is usually referred to as just "mouselook".

Still if that guy is claiming that you can't even use the mouse to turn, he's being a daft cunt.