/vr/ - Retro Games

Actual excerpt from an e-mail sent from a Rareware exec to Nintendo exec:

>I am the great & mighty poo. And I'm going to throw my shit at you.

>>2117863
Seriously? Like, is that real, or something you made up?

Oh you mean a developer tried to stand up to Nintendo? Good for them. I love nintendo and all of their games, but in the early days they forced exclusive contracts on every company to only produce games for their system.

Any "exclusive" contracts are ONLY based on greed and are ALWAYS bad for the consumer.

So fuck nintendo's business practices. I wish rare had won. They did a little bit, no one gives a shit about nintendo now.

>>2117832
As ultimate, the Stamper brothers stole the credits for the games of many

>>2117884
But it's okay when Sony does it.

>>2117906
>>>/v/

>>2117906

No it isn't. It's not okay when anyone does it. whether it's a video game company, or a sports league, or a television station, or anything.

>>2117906
>>>/v/

>>2117884
>no one gives a shit about nintendo now.

So 3DS vs. Vita: Which one has sold better?

>>2117832
>I recall reading that Rare bought PS1 and Saturn SDKs to threaten Nintendo, but for what reason?
I'm guessing with PSX and Saturn, this was around the time the N64 was released. I'm guessing they were attempting to pressure Nintendo into releasing technical information for the co-processor for the N64 so they could know exactly how to program for it. Just a guess though.

Still, I want OP to explain why it's scummy for a company to try and make money.

It's funny how people act appalled when game companies act like, well, companies.

It's not like other kid-oriented media like Jim Henson and Mr. Rogers with public funding, they're in an extremely competitive industry that's constantly changing.

>>2117938
If what I've seen in person is correct, then it would be smartphones. Long gone are the days where kids would be holding game boys or dee esses, they now are sliding their slimy little kid fingers across their mommy's overpriced phones. I have only seen three 3DSes in person, and I know someone that has one. I've also only seen 3DSes in store displays, much like the Vita.

>>2117938
Smartphones.

>>2117884
To be completely fair, Nintendo had absolutely no one developing for the N64, and they were lucky to get the PS1's leftovers. Nintendo was still stuck in their NES speed of first party support, the whole "Mario does Meaningless Things" trend didn't kick into full gear until the GameCube.

>>2117863
>>2117880
http://youtu.be/Vdd4rBlsj2o

>>2117887
such as?

im not sure if those allegations are true or not but if they are, honestly, nintendo deserved it.

>>2117938
Don't turn this into /v/

>>2117938
Mobile gaming.

>>2117938
Oh and I can't wait until mobile consoles are gone.

Maybe then phones will start getting some real gaming accessories with good controls, and the real game companies will start porting their games over.

Consoles are thing of the past. We only have so many pockets, and they're occupied.

>>2118018
>it's funny how people act appalled when companies find a way to not have to compete by locking developers down to their system and removing their choice, directly harming me as a consumer by preventing superior products from being made

who let ruggarel out of his cave?

Nintendo sees rare as an ex wife, who initiated the divorce, willingly married a wife beater and gained 80 pounds after divorce.
Nintendo doesn't regret selling Rare at all.

Rare were short sighted, in the late 90s Bill Gates was every year in the magazines as the worls wealthiest man, Microsoft had no competition like Apple or Google, Rare fell for that, fell for the allure of late 90s Microsoft thinking it would be like playing in the big leagues, and it all backfired on them.

>>2117880
Are you literally autistic?

>>2117884
I've always wondered

if Nintendo forced developers to work exclusively for the NES, how did Hudson get away with developing for the NES and having their own competing console at the same time?

not that strange, SNK had Neo Geo but Samurai Showdown was both on Genesis and SNES, and their fighters were in playstation consoles and saturn/dreamcast too iirc.

Rare was pretty much a part of Nintendo, and they sold themselves to Nintendo willingly because Nintendo was top dog in 1995.
In the year 2001, Nintendo was no longer top dog, so they wanted another company to buy them.

>>2118570
I thought Nintendo of America had that licensing thing going on, not Nintendo as a whole.

>>2117832
>For example, I recall reading that Rare bought PS1 and Saturn SDKs to threaten Nintendo
That's not "scummy," it's how negotiation works. Rare was arguably one of Nintendo's strongest assets. Maybe they weren't getting enough money, or were disappointed with decisions made with the N64.
, but for what reason? I also recall reading that Rare willingly put themselves for sale for MS, believing that MS would have a bidding war with Nintendo, and Nintendo would beat them out and Rare would make gajillions.

>>2118790
Oops, last line was supposed to be a quote. I haven't heard about Rare expecting a bidding war, but it's interesting. I was pretty disappointed when MS bought Rare, though admittedly I haven't tried any of their Xbox games.

>>2117832
I want a documentary of their experiences working on goldeneye

from the wiki:

>GoldenEye 007 was developed by an inexperienced team; eight of its ten developers had never previously worked on video games.[7][24] As programmer David Doak recalls, "Looking back, there are things I'd be wary of attempting now, but as none of the people working on the code, graphics, and game design had worked on a game before, there was this joyful naïveté."

God fucking dammit, I want to know what happned in that office.

>>2118218
Not /vr/, but Sony and MS are doing precisely that today. Rumor has it that they paid off Ubisoft, and other developers, to deliberately gimp PC versions of their games to make their consoles look better. Looking back, was Nintendo a bad guy, or a good guy?

>>2117938
PS4 vs. Wii U. Which has sold better?

>>2117832
>For example, I recall reading that Rare bought PS1 and Saturn SDKs to threaten Nintendo, but for what reason? I
I'd imagine that with having bought a Saturn SDK they had to have been doing preliminary work on a Super Battletoads port to it. Maybe a PS1 Super Battletoads port too.

>>2119081

Neither. Its positioning to become stronger and dominate your industry. Nintendo flexed this power at every chance until during/after the N64 when their influence had severely waned. Then Sony came to wield their influence like an iron fist, then MS. You can keep believing there is "good" and "evil" in business (especially in everyones favorite electronic hobby) but the reality is that anyone on top of the mountain is going to keep kicking people off for as long as they can. Keeping any business afloat for a decade or more is extremely tough and if you aren't willing to crush heads to stay afloat then you won't be in business long.

>>2117884
>I wish rare had won. They did a little bit, no one gives a shit about nintendo now.

And people care about Rare now?

>>2118763
>Never heard of Super Bomberman 5

Best Super Bomberman. And Japan Only, brah.

>>2118808
Interesting. It perfectly explains why Goldeneye is both innovative and inept.

>>2118050
Listening to Chris Marlowe sing with himself makes the developer let's play worth it on its own. The entire series is long and they're pretty awful at the game but a lot of what they have to say is interesting or at least entertaining.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9RXoYgWAeg
Too bad Chris Seavor will never finish it.

>>2117863
they're a scummy company for letting something that unfunny be released to the public

also the game was unplayably difficult.

I remember reading posts by a former Rare employee talking about why Banjo 3 was cancelled, it was really sad, like Microsoft kicked them in the dick. So if you really think Rare was a shitty company for trying to one-up Nintendo, then I guess they got their just desserts. Nintendo could have done more for Rare though, they made some of the best games for N64 that weren't first party.

>>2119094
Man. Super Battletoads looks like a great game. Shame it's arcade only.

>>2117832
There's nothing scummy about Rare purchasing SDKs for other platforms. Nintendo didn't own Rare and there was no exclusive arrangement. They made a lot of Nintendo games because they knew where the money was but they also made games for other platforms. Nearly every developer at least experiments on different platforms if not develops for them and Rare was no different. You either recall wrong or read something written by a retard.

>>2119142
>unfunny
No earthbound threads you could bitch in?

>unplayably difficult
There's always Kirbys kiddo

I agree on Conker being born old. As in, it was Ren & Stimpy half a decade after Ren & Stimpy.
It was a kinda teenagerish attitude to want to subvert mascot platformers in a Nintendo console by putting adult humour in it.
I regret Nintendo losing Killer Instinct, Banjo, Pefect Dark, but I don't care about Conker.

>>2118808
I knew a guy who worked for rare back in the N64 days. He said it was a horribly oppressive atmosphere where every team was separated into locked offices and were told they'd be fired if they spoke about their projects with other teams. I get the idea that there were MBAs doing the project management thing who were afraid that if anyone else implemented their team's soopar genius one of a kind ideas because coders talk to each other and swap info then their bonus wouldn't be as easy to negotiate. They had a serious staff turnover issue, it's no wonder Goldeneye was all new developers, the experienced ones got the fuck out.

>>2119260
I've heard that (i think) team conker and team banjo were having something like a development 'battle'. That was why banjos head is over the fireplace and kazooie is an umbrella in cbfd, to mock the banjo team.
But probably they still weren't allowed to share any current information between each other.

>>2118570
Check the TG16 brandings again.
Hudson was INCREDIBLY careful with how they handled the hardware, NEC was fully in charge of the TG16 hardware in the US.

Hudson did publish some TG16 software in the US, but if I recall correctly it was towards the end of the NES life cycle so maybe the rules were more lax? You'd have to look that part up...

>>2119120
No 'brah', Super Bomberman 3 is the best SNES entry. After that Hudson added too much stupid shit turning 4 and 5 into unamusing clusterfucks with their gimmick overload.

>>2119260
>my dad worked at Nintendo

>>2119281
It was probably meant more as a "thanks" for ripping off the concept Conker team had going, at least if you'd believe the story as Seavor tells it.

I think the logical thing would be for Nintendo to release a Game Boy Smart Phone (Phone Boy? Game Phone?) that way they can capitalize on mobile gaming as well as sell their exclusive games while not having to compete with pocket space with other smart phones.

Just a Game Boy/DS etc type business with mobile calling, internet, email and apps maybe even be a dual boot with Android.

But Nintendo is too stuck in the old ways to do it.

>>2119365
No, because with their production/copyright values and current competition a smartphone would still share places with another device.

But we're getting non-retro here. This isn't /v/.

>>2119120
I heard saturn bomberman was best bomberman.

>>2119209
Big deal, I bet it could run without issue on a measly arm cortex A9 or likely even cortex A7 device that isn't even the size of any normal console. No dual core called for even.

Even without a specialized emulator like raine, which rely on X86 assembler operations anyway.

/v/: the thread

>>2119659
>raine
Which doesn't even run games like mortal kombat or battletoads, because it's not 680X0 based, or whatever other processors it emulates

Admit it: he was jealous of Rare

>>2119670
All the games that Miyamoto was apart of were amazing.

Rare only had a handful of amazing games. DKC2, Perfect Dark... Banjo I guess but its so fucking boring.

>>2119670

I think he was jealous that Rare could create new, successful, popular franchises that weren't decades old.

>>2119671

>DKC 1
>not amazing

I agree DKC2 is better... but thats just because it's a fucking masterpiece. DKC was an amazing game at the time, and still is today.

>>2118143
not the guy, but heres source from the developers themselves
http://www.zee-3.com/pickfordbros/archive/view.php?post=25
>This actual drawing was just something I drew for fun. It was possibly for the front cover of the design document before we sent it to Rare for approval (who promptly threw away my cover image, added their own picture, then returned the identical document to us with just our names removed, replaced with 'Revised by Tim Stamper'), then I cut out a photocopy and stuck it on the front of my folder with sellotape.

http://www.zee-3.com/pickfordbros/softography/index.php?game=37
>As I remember it Rare just told us one day it was going to be Solar Jetman from now on, without any discussion about taking over our original game, and they made us put "Concept by Rare" on the end credits, which was plainly untrue.

>>2117832

They had Saturn and PS1 SDK's because the shares acquisition didn't take place till 1995 and Rare were still working on projects with Tradewest like Brute Force (The game that got Nintendo to sign a 2nd party contract in the 1st place. Which became Killer Instinct)

What you may be thinking of is the final years of the Nintendo/Rare relationship where the Stamper Bros weren't happy that Nintendo Japan was rejecting ideas for "Mature" games and only wanted token support for games like Perfect Dark and Eternal Darkness while Rare was pushing Nintendo to become more competitive with Sony and Sega and even offered to sell the brand to Nintendo so they could do a Disney/Miramax/Touchstone situation where Nintendo could use the Rareware brand for Mature games and not get heat in the press. Eventually the Stampers got sick of Nintendo directing them what to do instead of a 50/50 relationship, said "We're putting ourselves up for sale", Got Xbox and PS2 devkits and started negotiating with THQ, Microsoft and Activision. Nintendo were content to sit it out because they still had a 49% stake and a big deal with two of their bigger supporting publishers in Activision or THQ meant Rare would stay Nintendo exclusive anyway. Activision almost had the deal for $100 million till the 11th hour $300 million bid from Microsoft.

>>2119132

Seavor's not finishing it because he's busy with Rusty Pup and Ken Lobb (Who was Rare's NOA producer in the N64 days and currently Senior Creative Director at MS Studios) called him and asked if he wanted to talk it out (Regarding Seavor's fustration with MS) and to try rebuild the bridge which lead to the Conker in Spark stuff (Which is probably a troll to gauge interest for a real Conker sequel).

>>2119160

Turned out to be fake. And anyway, it's been leaked by a MS Staffer on Neogaf they are actually doing Banjo 3 now.

>>2119859
>it's been leaked by a MS Staffer on Neogaf they are actually doing Banjo 3 now.

You know what the worst thing is? No one will buy it because "it's an obvious nostalgia cash grab" (like Mega Man 9 wasn't, which everybody loved) and the overall stigma attached to the Xbox. Rare's games barely even sell on the Xbox, to the point where Rare is essentially just an internal team of MS, much like what IREM is to Sony. Threaten Nintendo, and that's what you get.

>>2119859
More details on Banjo 3 please. I wonder if this means we'll have to buy the useless Xbone or if a PC release can realistically be anticipated to show up at some point.

>>2119859
>Turned out to be fake. And anyway, it's been leaked by a MS Staffer on Neogaf they are actually doing Banjo 3 now.
But i don't want to buy an xbox one just for that...
If it's true and would actually become a true (and good) banjo kazooie sequel. Then life is bitter, really bitter.

>>2118570

Donkey Kong licensing.

Hudson licensed and released inferior Mario ports on their system.

>>2119670

Much as I loved his games growing up and still do a an extent, it kind of shook my perception of him when I first read about how he made Yoshi's Island look like a coloring book primarily to stick it to Rare for making a hi-res SNES platformer.

>>2119225
Thing is Banjo games had a lot of hidden innuendo and crude humour and I kind of imagine they were developing that Conker game, started joking about 'lol what if Conker was an alcoholic?' and thought fuck it, Conker is now an alcoholic, and it was all downhill from there...

>>2119670
these days the guy lives in a world where pikmin are real.

but as crazy as he is I do love pikmin, i wish he'd make a 3DS game

>>2118294
That took a moment to notice. I shall start using that stealthily from now on.

>>2119209
Rare was making a new Battletoads game for GBA, but it got mysteriously cancelled....

>>2122990
Microsoft has recently trademarked Battletoads. But after that Killer Instinct game I wouldn't expect much

>>2123239
>Microsoft has recently trademarked Battletoads.

Am I the only one imagining /b/ driving MS customer service nuts by asking about this now?

>>2123271
>Am I the only one imagining /b/ driving MS customer service nuts by asking about this now?
not asking gamestop if it's available for preorder.. pls.

>>2122990

It was a prototype done in two weeks and incredibly shit so it was cancelled within that time as well.

>>2123239

KI actually ended up really good. Depends who is developing Battletoads though. Recent job hirings are suggesting they are splitting Rare into a company that does AAA games powered by Unreal Engine 4 and smaller downloadable games powered by Unity.

>>2119859
>What you may be thinking of is the final years of the Nintendo/Rare relationship where the Stamper Bros weren't happy that Nintendo Japan was rejecting ideas for "Mature" games and only wanted token support for games like Perfect Dark and Eternal Darkness while Rare was pushing Nintendo to become more competitive with Sony and Sega and even offered to sell the brand to Nintendo so they could do a Disney/Miramax/Touchstone situation where Nintendo could use the Rareware brand for Mature games and not get heat in the press. Eventually the Stampers got sick of Nintendo directing them what to do instead of a 50/50 relationship, said "We're putting ourselves up for sale", Got Xbox and PS2 devkits and started negotiating with THQ, Microsoft and Activision. Nintendo were content to sit it out because they still had a 49% stake and a big deal with two of their bigger supporting publishers in Activision or THQ meant Rare would stay Nintendo exclusive anyway. Activision almost had the deal for $100 million till the 11th hour $300 million bid from Microsoft.
I want a source for this.

Every indication of developer interviews seems to indicate that Nintendo very rarely directed Rareware what to do.

If anything, it was Nintendo who were disappointed in Rareware due to their dismal 2001/2002 output.

If there's any truth to your "Mature games" story, it would be that Nintendo did not stop Rareware from making such games, but that they declined to provide advertising dollars for it.

The Stamper brothers were retiring anyway, they had the 51% controlling shares. It was just a good time to sell them. They offered Nintendo first dibs on them. It was Nintendo's prerogative to decline. If Nintendo were so anti mature games, why did they use that money to buy Retro Studios (former Turok devs) to produce more adult games like Metroid Prime?

It seems to me they just weren't happy with Rareware. Conker being in development hell for so long another big issue.

>>2119710
Welp, this is the proof of Rare scumminess that was asked for. Good work, anon.

>>2119310
Whether he's telling the truth nobody knows but it's well documented by past rare employees that they were very competitive between the different teams, trying to out do one another.

>>2121791
>>2121038
Fuck, I don't want to miss out on Banjo either.

Well, didn't that new Halo game end up being announced as multiplat? Maybe we'll get a PC Banjo, or if hell really freezes over a Wii U Banjo would make me the happiest.

>>2117832
>I also recall reading that Rare willingly put themselves for sale for MS, believing that MS would have a bidding war with Nintendo, and Nintendo would beat them out and Rare would make gajillions. Are these correct?


I don't know about that. They were a 2nd party developer, so they were exclusive to Nintendo and Nintendo opted to not continue funding them because Rare produced only a handful of N64 titles and the titles they produced on GC were SHIT. It simply wasn't economical, to continue feeding a worthless company. Something MS quickly learned, after buying Nintendo's leftovers.

>>2118320
nigger please. rare was dead long before ms bought them. ever play starfox adventures? thought so. but by all means, continue to blame ms for rare turning into the turd it is.

>>2125029
>ever play starfox adventures?
Not him, and I never played the game, but i think it is an okay game as it is. It's just a bad starfox game because miyamoto shove this franchise up their ass. As it was planned to be a new game: dinosaur planet for the N64 and for that it looked great.

>>2119132
>MOTHER FUCKING FUCK

>>2119281
As I recall, they said in the developers commentary that the Conker team looked at Banjo and had a shit loads of those "how are you doing this?" moments, and they decided to make Conker all edgy because otherwise it would've been just another fucking furry platformer.

In hindsight it was a good choice.

>>2125029
Yeah nah fuck off. I just beat adventures earlier today and the fault lies entirely with Nintendo. If miyamoto hadn't forced rare to insert McCloud and allowed them time to finish the game it would have been Rares Swan song. Playing the game there are so many obvious dead ends and areas that are unfinished. If they had been allowed to actually make dinosaur planet it would have been amazing.
But I'll never get to play it. Fuck miyamoto

Rare sucked save for two games: DKC and DKC2.

>>2117832
I lived through the times and from my understanding/experience.

>During the N64 era Rare became a huge deal, arguably the best studio in the world for consistency and quality and quantity in the world, for a few years in the late 90s.

>Nintendo treated them like shit (or at least far worse than they expected considering their output) and kept them under a tight leash doing clones of Nintendo games (Mario/Zelda) and naff licences like Mickey's Racing USA (not the game is naff but the licence is).

>There was friction between the companies

>MS came in and offered a huge wad of cash

>They left Nintendo

>Fanboys raged

>MS put Rare in a cellar and raped them.

>>2127850
You forgot RC Pro/Am

>>2127842
I haven't played Adventures, but I definitely like Krystal's old design a lot more and prefer Dinosaur Planet's art style in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOVBRJToVDY

>>2125024

>Handful
>2/3 titles per year on N64. 5/6 if you include Gameboy
>Only one title they produced on GC

Nigga you are dense and bitter.

>>2117884
And then Sony followed the same example.

The only shitty movements that Nintendo did with Rare was turning Dinosaur Planet into Star Fox Adventure (SFA was a great game despite some issues but it would be even better as DP) and boycotting Bad Fur Day.

Has anyone read that Gamecube article this year about the creation of the Dolphin? Like as in financially and what not comparing to the XBOX and PS2?

Heres a image of a Christmas card Rare gave out to many publishers saying that they were open to develop games to other consoles and whatnot

I have read somewhere that Rare stuff rushed to finish Star Fox Adventure when they heard about the upcoming sellout to Microsoft. Source for that?

>>2119670
He is an artist to me that happens to be working in the wrong industry, everything he is involved Is either great or quite unique

>>2129770
No, it would've been the same shitty game regardless of it being turned into Star Fox.

>>2129751
Well theirs was less strict, but they still gave companies contracts. Square famously was given an exclusivity contract, which explains why Crystal Chronicles was developed by a company called "Game Studio" and published by Nintendo. The same reason why several FF remakes on the GBA were developed by TOSE and also published by Nintendo themselves. On the contrary, Nintendo simply asked for games to be exclusive for two years before becoming multiplatform.

>>2128249
>RC Pro/Am
I hope you mean II. The first one kinda blows due to that cheating-ass AI
>DAT FUCKING YELLOW CAR
>ONLY ONE CONTINUE PER GAME
Fuck.

>>2129869
Not that guy, but I dunno if I agree. It seemed to have had a lot more potential than SFA, especially the plot. Oh well. I wish we could get a DP-esque adventure game that's actually made by a competent team in the near future. I know it won't be Rare what with all the shit that happened, but maybe Matrix Software could fit the bill.