/vr/ - Retro Games

Love the music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aSCVaIDet_I

Best enemy.
Best weapon.
Best level.
Go.

>>2108427
>Weredragon
>Hellstaff
>the one with the houses and smithy

>Heretic 2
>see progress map of the entire world during the loading screen with dozens of cities and interesting sounding locations on it
>"Oh boy, this is going to be a long and varied game!"
>you only visit four of them

>>2108427
>If by better, you mean the hardest; then the minotaur
>Ethereal Crossbow; kicked so many asses with it
>And secondly, the necromancer gauntlets; boosted with the tome of power and you could tank so much damage
>Last level, the kept of D'Sparil

I find Heretic rather average overall. It's very repetitive, and there is something about the enemies, the weapons and even the textures that I can't take seriously and which breaks immersion for me, it feels too much like a poorman's Doom.
Some great music though.

Hexen now, that is a great game!

>>2108481
>Hexen
>that level design
>that switch hunting
>great

>>2108483
I admit that some of the stuff is cryptic in Hexen, but I don't mind it too much. It's part of the adventure feel of the game.
I love what Hexen did in terms of level design, the way it handles level progression with its hub system. It rethinks the way the genre works instead of simply copying Doom.
The art direction, music and atmosphere are great too. Most monsters look absolutely wonderful, and despite working under the Doom engine, it doesn't remind me of Doom a single bit unlike Heretic.

>>2108423
Love this game so much. Maybe the first fps that ever really grabbed me; grabbed me and kicked my ass.

I have the most magnificent of boners for classic FPS, and Heretic produces one of the most profound. Massive, twisty and varied maps that loop back on themselves and make for something more than just a simple 'Doom-clone-with-majik-and-dargons'. The weapons are interesting and the enemy designs have such a unique character. Raven really set themselves apart from id withe that game.

I could never quite get into Hexen the same way.

Hexen II doe? Sheeeeeet.

>>2108427
Iron Lich
Gauntlets of the Necromancer
E2M3: The River of Fire

>>2108481
Hexen is great concept but rough around the edges. At more than one point I found myself stuck because I couldn't figure out where to go next. Maybe I missed a small thing tucked away in a corner of a level in the current hub, so I end up traveling back and forth between the levels trying to spot something, anything... Had to use walkthrough at least once or twice (after being stuck for a long time and getting bored of same things and nothing happening).

Otherwise yeah it's great fun and was a bold attempt to take Doom engine in new direction. But I still like Heretic more, because it just flow better, with good level design, fights and secrets, and amazing music. I was totally floored also playing this game right after Doom, because it was so much more colorful! It also invented the inventory and powerups you have to use strategically, which felt really cool at the time (I played 3-episode version of both this game and Doom soon after they were released).

>>2108427
I'm cumming already.

Best enemy: THE MAULOTAUR, badass name and sprite and hits hard like a fucker

Best weapon: the minigun that shoots red thingies + the powerup aka IT'S RAINING BLOOD

Best level: uhh don't think any of them really stood out

>>2108427

>Enemy
Disciple of D'Sparil
>Weapon
Gauntlets of the Necromancer
>Level
The Cathedral

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ7MmAunwAQ

>>2108760

Honestly tho, Heretic is WAY too easy for a modern gamer using a mouse + keyboard, enemies move slow and throw slow flying projectiles. The only difficulty on higher settings can come from plainly running out of ammo so you have to rush from key to door while dodging stuff.

It needs some proper WAD treatment or Brutal Heretic or smth to stay fresh and not just something you'd replay once every 5 years.

>>2108769
>mouse and keyboard
>casuals
>mfw

I loved the Cathedral of Episode 1 and the aquatic look of Episode 3. I also appreciated that the level design was more straightforward, not as cryptic as Hexen.
Also, Tomes of fucking Power. Awesome mechanic, I missed it a lot in Hexen

>>2108769
D'Sparil kicked my ass pretty good on Difficulty 5 and was a fun fight

>game is too similar to Doom
how is that a flaw?

I prefer the music of Heretic over Hexen's, both have real gems though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGFP_NbU9YM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sK7Az5cMpwc

>>2108423
I bought this game on stream but haven't played it. Is there anything that changed on the steam release? I know some older games like quake got there music removed because of copyright. I want to experience the game with as much of it's original features as possible

>>2109313
I think you're best of using zdoom

>>2109193
Original Heretic supported mouse, just like Doom

>>2109570
Yeah but the majority of the time people just keyboard only for these games.

>>2108481
K you dildo normally you have pretty good opinions but heretic has much better level design than doom. Heretic levels actually feel like what they are supposed to be without being boring.

>>2108427

Maulotaur. Everything else in Heretic is small time. The Cyberdemon wishes it were that cool.

Phoenix Staff, holy shit.

E5M8.

>>2108769
>proper wad treatment
>Brutal heretic

>>2109716
Gibbing 'monsters' that move slower than ducks dying of pancreas cancer is fun, anon

You could also restrict yourself to keyboard-only hardcore gamer mode, that's even more fun, surely.

>>2110709
>playing Do...I mean Heretic with a mouse
>>>/v/

>>2108423

I really like the games, but fuck the level design puzzles

fuck them hard

>>2108427
>saberclaw
>ethereal crossbow
>labyrinth or glacier

still my favorite retro shooter

>>2110847
>NOT playing Doom with a mouse

Are you one of those newfag Doom "purists" who doesn't realize Doom has always supported mouse controls?

>>2110884

>>2110884
playing with both hands on keyboard master race newfag

>>2108481
>the weapons

Even when I was a kid it bugged me that almost every weapon is an obvious analogue to a Doom weapon. The only "new" weapon is the firemace, and it sucks.

Hexen on the other hand, has some great weapons. The vampiric Serpent Staff, the soul-shattering Ice Shards, and the holy sword Quietus.

>>2111072
tome of power made every weapon totally different, that was über fun nigga. Also, i still think that crossbow was much more satisfying than shotgun, that on-hit effect is perfect

I've been playing Strife, but I can't figure out how to get in the prison

the weapons were too loud

the music was extremely good

the level design was average

the minotaur was the only good boss

All the sequels were inferior

I can't think of anything else, it needed better world-building, it works as a doom game, but only with a better (non-invasive) story framework

>>2111103
>tome of power made every weapon totally different

Yeah, the power items were what really gave Heretic its uniqueness. I love the Tome of Power, and the Morph Ovum.

>>2111125
What are you talking about dude, the level design was fucking great

>>2108769
As with Doom, try playing levels from a pistol start (or a wand start, I guess, in the case of Heretic). Makes you work for the powerful weapons and really be careful with your ammo, plus you'll find uses for items like the timebombs that are kind of a joke otherwise. Balance is very tight on some levels.

>>2111125
>the weapons were too loud
gotta second this. The Dragon Claw in particular was much louder than the other weapons and enemy sounds.

>>2111118
You have to see the guvnuh and get a pass from him.

>>2108423
Music was the best part. Up there with ROTTs IMO.

I've always been a fan of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR56Pz6qXg0

>>2111125
>All the sequels were inferior

Hexen II was actually pretty great, IMO.

>>2113948
Heretic > Hexen 2 > Hexen

>>2108427
>Wizard
>Gauntlets and powered up Hellstaff
>E4M7, E5M2

Gauntlets + tome of power is coolest weapon in video games period. I always feel so bad ass draining the life out of my enemies

>>2112494
Doom 1 (ep. 1) and Doom 2 had some of the level best design in the history of FPS.

Heretic's just OK. Nothing really stands out. Here, have some environmental hazards and monsters and a key - now, on to the next door you go! Not sure what anon's remembering by 'puzzles' but I sure can't recall any (I replayed Heretic a month ago). Use your map if you get lost, you can't get lost this way.

>>2114341
the first 3 levels of heretic are better than any doom level. John romero helped raven design the game so of course it's better than doom

>>2109716
tbh i could go for some mythical gore. The whole "brain splatters everywhere" gimmick can get old. Having it be a magical game sounds like a really cool opportunity. Either way Brutal Hexen is development.

I honestly prefer the level design in Heretic to Doom. Doom (especially Doom 2) is generally pretty hit-or-miss with lots of maps that just seem hastily thrown together while Heretic feels more polished and consistent throughout. All of the maps have discernible themes too compared to the more abstract nature of Doom which makes the game a lot more immersive.

E4M9 can fuck off though.

>>2114341
>Doom 2 had some of the level best design in the history of FPS.

You don't know how wrong you are.

>>2114457
Name me some FPS games with superior level design, then.

Not trying to stir up an argument here, genuinely curious.

>>2114341
>Not sure what anon's remembering by 'puzzles'
He's probably thinking of Hexen.

>>2114230
this

>>2114634
uhh heretic lol

Can I play this if I'm catholic?

>>2114869
no you shouldn't even be using a sinbox

>>2114873
I'll turn it off. bye.

>>2114809
>heretic
>better level design than doom 2

E1 of heretic had some okay design. But hell the fuck no is the rest of heretic better than doom 2.

I'd rather fucking play chasm, and that level was garbage.

>>2114981
>I'd rather fucking play chasm, and that level was garbage.
I think that's the most memorable Doom2 map. One of the better ones for that very reason, if you ask me. Doom2's vanilla levels are quite bland.

>>2114634
It's a dumb yet popular opinion on this board to say that Doom 2 maps suck compared to 1. People are dumb, don't worry about it.

>>2114634
Shadow Warrior
Douk 3D
Blood
Strife
Doom 1
Heretic, obviously
Hell, even Hexen put more thought into its hubs than Doom 2 did into its lazy messes of maps.

I mean, look at MAP02. There's a barrel, and a fucking sergeant, stuck IN THE WALL. He can't move or hurt you. Clearly, they didn't even care about most of the game. I've seen people make the "abstract" argument for the later levels, but they could've easily made their maps actually look like stuff. The amount of laziness in the design really just appalls me.

>>2111125
>these weapons are too loud
>my feet hurt
>I wish i was back on Phobos punching demons

the only Doom maps worth shit are E1M8, E2M8, E3M3 and E3M6

>Doom 2 map design

>>2110884
PS/2 mouse support was non-functional until 1.4, which was released over 6 months after 1.1. It's worth mentioning that PS/2 also happened to be nearly omnipresent at the time.

>>2115672
kek

>>2115667
B-b-but I really like Citadal a-and refueling base a-a-and gotcha

>>2115395
People do this with Sandy Petersen's maps as well, which I find downright laughable.

People only hate his maps because they're ugly. Which is true. He was never one for picking textures, and some sectors can look a bit strange. But his maps, especially the doom 2 ones, were varied, and offered great gameplay.

People like to ride Romero's dick and praise Knee Deep, but that episode was repetitive with the encounters, and a walk in the park. Every map is basically the same formula, which gets old. Romero's mapping improved a lot in Doom 2 and TFC.

>>2115746
The hint manual for Wolfenstein 3D, never mind Doom, recommends using the mouse. The very earliest publically available alpha build of Doom lets you use the mouse to turn. The 1.0 Doom setup allows you to configure mouse controls. Get outta here with your revisionist bullshit.

>>2115672
lol

It's true though, Heretic has terrible sound balance. It'd be easy to fix though, just dump the wad and edit the sounds in Audacity or something.

>>2115746
>muh purity
>s'what the developers intended

You know John Carmack would laugh in your face for saying Doom shouldn't be played with a mouse, right?

>>2116385
just played the game after like 3 years, weapon sounds are perfectly fine

>>2110847
The inbuilt demos were played with a fucking mouse. This keyboard only mindset is not purism. Its being retarded.

>>2115746
>PS/2 mouse support was non-functional until 1.4
Source? What about pic related.

>mfw a Doom 2 faggot claimed a game containing "The Crusher" had better level design than Heretic near me

Even Marathon has better map design than Doom 2

>>2117219
>thinks heretic had good level design

E1 had some alright design, but the other episodes are pretty terrible.

>>2108423
why? heretic sucks

>>2115395
This.

Also Doom II is a billion times better than the first. People are fucking retarded.

>>2117470

No, doomers on this board are fucking idiots, just take a look at their containment thread.

>>2117469
back to /v/

>>2117660
Heretic does suck, though.

Its in the same boat as ROTT. The only good part about it was the music

>>2117683
Please elaborate. Are you one of those DOOOOOOM elitists?

I personally think Heretic took best parts of Doom and amped them up, the pseudo-inventory was quite revolutionary and the level design is still one of the best one can find in retro shooters.

>>2117690

Heretic weapons are copy-paste version from Doom, with the exception of Firemace.

Power-ups are a nice idea but they barely add anything to gameplay.

Doom 1/2 at their best were about discovering new parts of the same level as you progressed, like un-wrapping a box to find another box inside. Heretic is mostly linear, once you're done with A you proceed to B.
You will run. Out. Of ammo. Episode 3 onward, playing on fourth/fifth difficulty. This is a complete travesty and a failure of design for an FPS of this kind.

Best boss.

>>2117706
>You will run. Out. Of ammo.
?

You get additional ammo on difficulty 5, just like in Doom.

You sound bad.

>>2117706
Well done anon, shit taste confirmed, thankies.

Now please heed >>2117660

>>2117716
>>2117721
>no arguments other than ad-hominems
I rest my case

>>2117706
>You will run. Out. Of ammo

Stop talking like a Gawker headline.

>>2117724
k, let's break it down

>>2117706
>Heretic weapons are copy-paste version from Doom, with the exception of Firemace.

I don't see this as a negative, besides every weapon acts much differently while under effect of Tome of power, also i like there is no ultimate weapon good for every situation like BFG (tomed firemace works similarly tho)

>Power-ups are a nice idea but they barely add anything to gameplay.

Seems more like you have to get good, they add whole new level to gameplay

>Doom 1/2 at their best were about discovering new parts of the same level as you progressed, like un-wrapping a box to find another box inside. Heretic is mostly linear, once you're done with A you proceed to B.

They have a lot more consistent quality tho, and actually feel like parts of huge hub, unlike Doom which is pretty hit or miss

>You will run. Out. Of ammo. Episode 3 onward, playing on fourth/fifth difficulty. This is a complete travesty and a failure of design for an FPS of this kind.

Damn, developers make me use melee weapons and conserve ammo, how fucking dare they!

>>2117460

Better than Doom 2, in which no episode is without at least one map which is so shit that noone should ever think of playing it twice. Another advantage that Marathon holds over it, actually.

>>2117460
agreed strongly... heretic is ultra nostalgic for me being one of my first pc games but holy god i had to force myself to play episode 2 onwards

Heretic levels had cool passages in them that actually felt like locations with secret areas, instead of hidden rooms that didn't really serve a purpose other than to hold some items for you like in doom.

>>2108423
I've just finished installing it and I got to say ; fantastic. I'm a big fan of Doom, Doom 2 aswell and retro games in general. I shed a fucking tear when I launched Heretic for the first time.

Right now I'm still fiddling with configuration (I use Zandronum) but once everything is set, I will play a shitload of this game.

Music is really great, I'm impressed.

I have been digging out these kind of games for the past two years (Blood, Shadow warrior etc..)

Thank you /vr/

Rate Heretic weapons /vr/

crossbow>necrogloves>phoenix staff>hellstaf>dragon's claw>elven staff>firemace>stick

>>2118190
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IK0zC_ysgW8

best soundtrack here

>>2118278
Shit, didn't meant to reply. But i might as well.

Staff - 1/10
Gloves of necromancer - 9/10
Elven wand - 4/10
Ethereal Crossbow - 11/10
Dragon claw - 7/10
Hellstaff - 8/10
Phoenix rod - 10/10
Firemace - 5.5/10

I see a lot of discussion about Heretic and I never played it, but I have no doubts it is a great experience. After all, I had a blast with Hexen on N64. But I'm wondering why people don't talk about Heretic II. Was it a bad installment on the series?

>>2118572
>Was it a bad installment on the series?

Yes.

>>2118572
>muscular elf

>>2118579
fuck off no it wasn't it was a solid 3rd person action game.

>>2118585
Maybe so but it was still a bad Heretic game

>>2117517
Agreed. They're easily the shitiest community on /vr/.

>>2117706
I agree that Heretic sucks but
>You will run. Out. Of ammo.
Classic fag that needs to git gud. Don't blame your own incompetence on game design.

Post the best Heretic songs.

>>2117706
I just played through the game recently, and in the first three episodes (at least) I was ALWAYS full on ammo, constantly leaving behind pick-ups and such.

>>2118710
The theme from the first level. It just sounds tribal, druidi, makes you really feel like corvus lurking around those spooky docks.

>>2117837
>no episode is without at least one map which is so shit that noone should ever think of playing it twice

In heretic, no episode is without at least five maps which are so shit that noone should ever think of playing it twice.

Hexen 2 was pretty great

>>2118825
AHHHK

AHHK AHHK AHHK

AHHHHK

AHHHK

>>2115746
PS/2 may have been a thing but serial mice were still very common, maybe more common. Expecting players to use a serial mouse is still giving players the choice of using a mouse. You'd never find a 90's PC without serial ports. The default demos were recorded with mouse control. Doom is a mousy game, cat.

>>2118825
Eh Barbrican was okay but I never could get into the other realms, and don't remind me of the Egypt one, had to constantly look at guides to figure out what the fuck they wanted me to do

If they had more level design like Hexen did I would have liked it that much better, also why did Kevin just rehash all the Heretic and Hexen songs for Hexen 2? Was it that rushed?

>>2118694
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmcF1msVRuY

>>2118802
ebin opinion m8ie :^)

Holy shit, just started E4 and it's kicking my ass. Fighting against 3 Iron Liches only with hellstaff and crossbow is manly as fuck.

>>2113948
>>2114230
Hexen > Hexen 2 > Heretic > Heretic 2
They're all fantastic games though.
If we're counting multiplayer, then Hexen 2 wins

>>2120041
Sometimes I really wonder if there's any significance to some of these wall murals

Now I'm interested how people can run out of ammo in heretic. I only play on 5th difficulty and I don't think I've depleted more than 1 weapon at a time. Do you play differently than I do? Do you run out of ammo in other games?

>>2118283
>>2118190
You're both spot on. Incoming Tome of Power levels:

Gauntlets>DragonClaw>Firemace>Hellstaff>Crossbow>Phoenix>Wand>Staff

>>2120472

Shit's far more immersive than the iconography we see in Doom. Strife was also good for this.

>>2120472

Fantasy artists love drawing muscular naked dudes. It's not even a sexual thing, it's... actually I don't know. Frank Frazetta wasn't a poof and he did it all the time.

>>2120489
Tomed Hellstaff was wonderful for killing iron liches. Also post more murals, they look great

>>2108560
>>2108483

Damn i actually played through a bit of hexen and dropped heretic at level 1...

Now im excited

>>2114634
quake

Is there a big online multiplayer scene like Doom?

>>2121084
No, but there potentially could be. It is possible to play Heretic online through Zandronum the same way you could Doom, and mapping tools exist. The problem though is that many consider it to be a magic oriented Doom, and therefore just play Doom because it has more mod support.

I would be willing to learn Doom mapping with the thread if you guys want to build up some mods for Heretic.

>>2121139
this would be fucking awesome, i think Heretic multiplayer would be even better than Doom because all of the powerups

I've never really been one for multiplayer in any of the Doom/Heretic games aside from Hexen 2. Mostly because it's the only one I could get working without 3rd party programs

On the other hand, I've always really wanted to make my own maps. Last time I tried was in middle school and I had no clue what I was doing.

Best episode?

>>2122418
Second one, if only for the Glacier
also, who else thinks AVGN is going an hero in next few years?

>>2123490
>also, who else thinks AVGN is going an hero in next few years?

Why?

>>2124112

His wife cheats on him but he doesn't want to leave her.

>>2124137
that's pretty fucking sad

>>2122418
Dome of D'Sparil