/vr/ - Retro Games

>>2065168
>Bad design with no possible in universe justification

This. Every single autoscrolling segment I've played has done nothing more than bore the shit out of me. It's especially bad when a good chunk of the game is made of those sections (like Metal Slug 5.) Pic related is one of two exceptions I can think of because the scrolling is so fast you never have to wait for the next screens to pop-up with new enemies to blast. It is genuinely fun and should have set the gold standard for these types of levels.

Yeah, fuck autoscroll levels. The airships in SMB3 could've been a lot better in my opinion if they had worked as normal levels.

>>2065168
Autoscrollers are shit tier almost all the time.

They're basically like the equivalent of QTE's in modern games. Just pidgeon holed in because they can and its easy to change up the pace.

I can't name a single game that was improved by an autoscroller level.

Except shmups because thats just how they are.

>>2065168
I never was a fan of autoscrolling levels in platformers, they killed my sense of speed. I always hate how much time I spend waiting around for the game to scroll to the next thing I can jump on. >>2065187
brings up a good point. The slide stages in MM8 were actually fun (if a tad annoying) because instead of making you wait around, they go by really fast, and it's all about your reflexes.

I don't like them because I like to go fast

A great way to pace levels when done correctly.

>>2065187
>the single worst part of MM8
>gold standard

>>2065261
I wouldn't call them the worst part of MM8. I actually found them quite fun, sure, they were pretty frustrating, but I found Astro Man's stage in general to be a lot more annoying.

>>2065168
It's a mess. Just their way of trying to make short levels seem a lot longer. It's fucking bullshit because getting snagged between a pipe and the side of the screen is a bullshit way to die. It doesn't make sense for a game with a timer and a score to have levels that limit your forward motion without a skillful way to get around it.

>>2065261
>Game requires a skill that I do not have to pass
>It is bad because of that

Typical Mega Man fans.

>>2065251
No fuck that shmups should be freescrolling.

I can think of exactly one good autoscroller: Seven Force in Gunstar Heroes.

I don't mind them so much when it's horizontal scrolling, but vertical ones are fucking stupid.

>Vertical scrolling downward
>Uh oh you jumped too high over that gap! Game over!
or
>Vertical scrolling upwards
>Uh oh you went too high up because the game is scrolling so slowly, here's an enemy spawning right on top of you! Death!

>>2065321
Are there any games with downward scrolling? I don't think I've ever played one.

>>2065558

Castlevania Bloodlines, stage 2. I know this certainly isn't the only one out there.

>>2065168
Very seldom are they done right. The only ones I can think of I even moderately enjoyed are the autoscrollers in Yoshi's Island (I think there were two total) and >>2065258 . Generally they are unfun to play, and undermines a part of platformers I think is what makes them so good (the ability to play them at the desired pace).

>>2065558
Battletoads

Great. I especially like the ones in SMB3.

I've never thought to myself 'ah this one autoscrolls this sucks.' It's a different style of level and sometimes it's challenging enough to really be engaging despite the slow pace.

The second level of Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts is by far the worst offender. Just the thought of making that long-ass boat ride makes me not want to play that game through ever again.
On the other hand, the one in Ghouls 'n Ghosts was actually done well (lots of enemies to kill, some actual hazards and it's pretty short).

>>2065258
>>2065315
The whole Green's stage has barely anything to do with auto scrolling. It's just an animated background/foreground while the terrain sometimes turns 90 degrees. The start of Orange's stage had an actual autoscroll section (climbing the tower), why didn't anyone mention that?

>>2065308
HAHHAHAHAHAH
Good joke

I'm kind of sick of autoscrollers being hated so much. It's a legitimate style of stage design, and most of them are perfectly fine levels.

I think the problem is, in a certain sense, a person can become "too proficient" at platformers. I can remember my early experiences with SMB3, and the autoscrollers could be harrowing. You don't get that same feeling from normal levels. But once you play enough video games it becomes far less challenging. I can see why people lose their patience.

>>2066167
>a person can become "too proficient" at platformers
It's bad game design if this happens. People work around low skill ceilings with challenge playthroughs eg. speedrunning, and autoscrollers prevent this, so autoscrollers are always bad.

>>2065559
That's upward scrolling.

> no mentions of Labyrinth Zone, Sandopolis Zone
Do you even Sanic?

Fucking awful level design. Couldn't defend this even if I was payed to do it.

the fucking bane of my existence

>>2066175
> so autoscrollers are always bad.
lol, nice logic.

Not everyone uses speedruns as their challenge of choice.

More to the point, not every game has to cater to the player's skill (high or low).

Not liking autoscrollers, even not liking them 100%, is just a personal preference. That's fine. It doesn't mean it is bad design.

>>2066375
The purpose of a game is to test player skill. Anything that lowers skill ceiling makes a game worse.

Autoscrollers can raise skill floor by forcing bad players to move faster, but they are the worst possible way of doing that. Instead there should be a time limit, or something that chases the player.

>>2065308
>shmups should be freescrolling.
some of them are, they are called Arena shooters or something. Some are anal about it and don't aknowledge them as real shmups though.

>>2066350
No, I know what you're thinking of (the water rising) but there is another part after that that is downward scrolling.

Also, castlevania 4 has downward scrolling at the library place.

>>2066385
> muh skill ceilling

There is a functional reason why someone might create an autoscroller but not a one sided version (where the left side pushes you, but you aren't blocked from moving ahead). It caps the amount of slack the player has.

Like lots of design choices, there are compromises.

It's also fair for a game to accommodate a particular audience, and at a certain point that audience will be accommodated without a higher skill ceilling.

>>2066385
>The purpose of a game is to test player skill. [citation needed]

>>2066385
>The purpose of a game is to test player skill.

>>2066356
When did Sandopolis have autoscrolling? I remember the boss of Mushroom Hill and the chase to the boss in Lava Reef.

Out of those examples, the Mushroom Hill boss is an example done well and Lava Reef is an example done badly. In Mushroom Hill you're chasing Robotnik and need to avoid obstacles in order to beat him. Lava Reef is done badly because there's literally no reason to have autoscrolling there so it seems incredibly tacked on.

>>2066394
And don't forget that pseudo auto scrolling stage with the falling platforms as you advance

>What do you guys think of autoscrolling levels in 2D platformers?

I love it. Specially games that are 100% autoscrolling levels.

>>2066385
>but they are the worst possible way of doing that
Why do you think so?

Unless you consider the fact that the concept is abstract as a negative, I don't see any problems with autoscrolling. And if you don't like abstract design, tough luck, because that's how distinct artforms work: singing in opera, stage in theatre, cinematography in cinema, gamedesign in video games — it's the abstract devices that make artforms distinct. Otherwise you'd have one general and generic, unified "storytelling" artform that explicitly prohibits non-plot-centric artistic devices.

>>2068283
To add to that, just like jumping on the enemies' heads on a flat plane is a metaphor of struggle, autoscrolling is a metaphor of rush and charge. Neither is realistic, yet both are relatable.

>>2068283
An autoscrolling is exactly the same as a level with a strict time limit or something chasing the player except it makes players wait for no good reason. It is strictly worse game design. It's as bad as unskippable cutscenes.

>>2068295
I think you're talking about some particular stage you don't like and not the concept of autoscrolling in general. You can misuse the device, as you can misuse platforming, shooting, adventure and all other game video game design devices. But that doesn't make the concept itself inferior.

Good autoscrolling stages push you forward, not slow you down.

>>2068301
Every autoscroller makes good players wait. If it's an exceptionally fast autoscroller (eg. Seven Force stage in Gunstar Heros) then it might not be annoying, but it would still be better if there was no arbitrary speed limit.

>>2068312
You argument is basically this: all arbitrary limitation is bad. But game design is about creating arbitrary limitations. An arbitrary limitation on scrolling is neithe rpositive or negative in itself, only particular implementations of it have positive or negative value. The mechanic itself is equal to horizontal, vertical, 3d scrolling and non-scrolling. It's just a technique that can be employed to an effect depending on context.

It's like saying that the dominant function in music is crap. Or that long takes in cinematography are crap. Or that flashbacks are a bad storytelling technique (which is sometimes said, and there's a reason — it's very easy to botch a flashback and halt story progress with what's happened in the irrelevant past, etc.). These can be botched, these can be perfected, it all depends on the implementation and not the technique itself.

>>2068348
Not all arbitrary limitations are bad, only those which lower the skill ceiling, which autoscrollers do.

>>2068358
It is fallacious to say that autoscrolling necessarily lowers the skill ceiling.

It may make a stage easier. In most cases, it makes a stage harder — both by making the player move forward faster, and, in some cases, by not allowing the play to move past an obstacle too fast, thus making the player learn to deal with it in a more efficient way.

Both in terms of abstract challenge and metaphor, autoscrolling is as good as any other type of scrolling.

>>2068367
It both makes the stage harder (raises the skill floor) and lowers the skill ceiling at the same time. This does not make it good, because there are other ways of raising the skill floor that do not lower the skill ceiling.

Difficulty.

>>2066647
>lava reef
>done badly

best be trolling

>>2068380
What makes you believe that autoscrolling by necessity and in all cases lowers the skill ceiling?

Many shmups work best as autoscrollers. Shmups with intricate level design benefit from autoscrolling even more than ordinary ones. If you could stop or go back, in most cases, it would LOWER the skill ceiling in games like R-Type.

If we take for granted that autoscrolling lowers the skill ceiling the way you're claiming, you know what conclusion we could come to? That all scrolling lowers it, compared to game where the whole stage is visible at all times (i.e. non-scrollers). Because scrollers obscure parts of the stage, thus removing the need or capability for tactical thought.

But that's not the case. It's like saying that if there's not murder, it's not a story. Murder is only one of the devices, and not necessarily the most intense one in the hands of a skilled author. Similarly, pacing control like scrolling speed, in the hands of a talented designer, can produce a very strong positive effect.

>>2068404
OP post:
>What do you guys think of autoscrolling levels in 2D platformers
Shmups are a completely different genre and the same arguments do not apply.

>>2068406
Then ignore my mention of shmups. I only mentioned them to illustrate a point. Which stands regardless.

some autoscrolling levels are pretty fun

>>2068421
OMG difficulty ceiling is irrecoverably lowered though, throw it in the fucking bin.

>>2068448
what

>>2068452
see
>>2068312
>>2068358
>>2068380

>not liking a game's design/rules
fair enough

>complaining that they're broken, arbitrary, or otherwise "incorrect"
grow up

>"no possible in-universe justification"
are you fucking serious

God tier: Autoplaying levels
Shit tier: Autoscrolling levels

"They make you have to wait"
A good autoscroll level will make the waiting difficult because it just means you have to deal with all the obstacles in your confined space for even longer

>>2069464
And less than 1% of autoscrollers actually do this.

>>2069470

That is a bs exaggeration.
The majority of mario autoscrollers have all kinds of stuff coming at you and/or platforming obstacles

>>2065168
Wall of Death > Auto-scrolling

>>2069657
The only Mario autoscroller that you could possibly argue doesn't make you wait is the fast airships level in SMB3.

>>2069683
that's not what the other poster was talking about.

>>2069470
Less than 1% of stages in retro games is competently designed in general. Games are still young today, but in the 80s they were bleeding fucking edge.

>>2069470
Citation needed etc. Even if that is true, it means that auto-scrollers are not necessarily bad.

>>2070381
Out of the thousands of autoscroller stages, we have only identified two (Gunstar Heros Seven Force, SMB3 fast airships) where the waiting is not annoying. (excluding games that are 100% autoscrolling such as shmups).

I've never seen an autoscroller that I liked.

>>2065168
I still wake up some nights in a cold sweat. Unable to do anything to relive the first time I ever encounter one of these stages as a wee nerd.

Bridge Zone. Master System.

So terrifying. What is this magic? The stage pulling me? OHGODWHY