/vr/ - Retro Games

While you're probably right, you don't exactly help your case by comparing a crappy Android PS1 emulator image to a sharp, hi-res N64 emulator one.

>>1879315
>emulator screenshots

this really only proves that n64 emulation is shit. We all knew that.

Though the fog really is a problem.

>>1879315
The models in the N64 version look nicer but the fog is terrible. Although I'm not sure if the 3-D models in the N64 version look better because of emulator settings or because of the hardware on the N64.

>>1879334
But the "crappy" image really does look so much better. It looks like pure art the way it is, while the crisper image just looks like "bad 3D graphics".

Like, the look of the image on the right is one that "artsy" indie games still go for.

>>1879337
Don't delude yourself. It's an accurate representation of how N64 games actually look.

How about the PSP versions?

>>1879315
Daily reminder that you cannot compare N64 screenshots because there is no N64 emulator that renders graphics as the machine does. It's all upscaled HLE bullshit.

>>1879343
Nah m8, N64 games look much, much blurrier than that.

>>1879359
Wrong. A plugin exists that is pixel-accurate to the real thing. It's slow as all fuck, though.

>all nintendo64 games look like emulated versions of shitty games

>>1879315
you went and made me put the old cartridge in just because I don't remember it looking that choppy. And I was right. What the fuck is up with the right screenshot?

Don't have a Mega Man Legends comparison handy, but have a Tony Hawk 3 one instead, using LLE pixel-accurate (albeit upscaled) graphics on both.

>>1879315
who cares nerd? it's been over 15 years. move on.

>>1879375
Shitty emulation. Probably using Rice's plugin or some dumb shit.

>>1879315
>>>>>>>>>>using a shitty emulator to compare graffix lolololololololol

>PSX graffix
wobblewobblewobblewobblewobblewobble

Everyone knows muddy textures look better than polygons having seizures. Anything pure 3d just ends up not working on psx.

Also we've had this exact same thread here before with the same image, and everyone called him out for using emulator shots.

>>1879343
No, it really isn't. The hi-resolution emulated shots you provided on both consoles look absolutely nothing like they should on real hardware.

>>1879536
It might not look anything like the OP image, but it still proves easily that the PSX graphics are far more pleasing than the blurry, closely fogged nintendo graphics.

So the OP exaggerates, but it's not an outright lie.

>>1879410
>n64 graffix

I couldn't figure out how to add fog

>>1879536
dem scanline. dat perfect crt image quality...

also It looks like you used rgb for the ps1 and composite for the n64. I know its a bitch to rgb mod a n64 but for the sake of comparison rgb will always look better.

You know, can't we just agree that Megaman Legends worked so well on PSX because it was developed with the hardware's features and weak points in mind?

Capcom would've probably be able to pull off something like Banjo or Rare at some point, but it'd mean too much of a hassle to rewrite the entire game following N64's architecture - and you know, they already put some efforts into fitting a lot of compressed áudio that could have been simply cut from the port.

>>1879410
>>1879567
So, basically, both systems look like shit and early 3D looks like shit regardless.

>>1879583
Component on a PS2 -- not that it would make any noticeable difference, but y'know -- and S-Video on the N64. I'm too lazy to do the RGB mod on my 64 and I honestly don't think the result would be worth it. The blur is pretty much built into the system.

It should also be noted that the N64 version of MML suffers from a fucking absurd amount of slowdown not present in the PlayStation version. It creeps into single digits during practically every battle (Especially in wide areas like the fight with all the servbots outside right before the very first Tiesel fight). I've never noticed this happen when emulating Mega Man 64.

>>1879380
Damn, all of those N64 low resolution textures. How disgusting.

How did Nintendo ever believe putting 3D games on a cartridge was a sane idea again?

>>1879315
daily reminder that megaman legends is a shit series people only like because they played it when they were six and it has a lot of anime cliches in it, and 3 got canceled for a reason

>>1879613
Maybe if you're a console babby. PC had wonderful 3D games like Descent.

>>1879623
Because muh piracy and muh loading times IIRC

>tfw I've learned to like jaggies because there's worse shit in the gaming industry now, like Bloom and motion blur

>>1879632
Things PS1 has:
- High quality music
- High quality sprites
- Uncompressed high resolution textures
- Long cutscenes
- Multiple CD games

Things N64 has:
>muh load times

Still fighting the console wars 20 years later.

Grow up kids.

>>1879639
dont forget
>muh exclusives
Seriously, if the N64 had used CDs instead of carts I could easily see it being superior to the PS1. Sadly Nintendo didn't and thus began to decay.

>>1879635
FUCK BLOOM LIGHTING. God damn it what kind of faggot retard thought that was a good idea? It's probably to cover up their boring brown and grey art style though

>>1879635
don't forget FXAA

>>1879626
This

>>1879647
Yeah. It always makes me a bit annoyed when someone complains about PS2 jaggies. You can still see the graphical detail through the jaggies even if the models aren't represented that well. It's leagues better than having a bland looking game and covering all of it up with a coating of bloom, shaders and blur.

Shaders made game developers fucking lazy compared to the PS1/PS2 days where developers had to make up for lack of AA/shaders with more detailed environments

>>1879654
FXAA is retarded, you can achieve the same effect by running your monitor at a lower resolution.

It should be noted that there's a very good PC version of Legends.

>>1879315
It's also due to Nintendo's requirement that all games use bilinear texture filtering for all textures.

>>1879315
Please, you are using an example of a terrible port. It's easy to cherrypick examples. Capcom only programmed two games for Nintendo 64 themselves: this port of Megaman 64 and an enhanced Tetris game. Compared to like a trillion on Playstation.

It was three years late, and shat out the door.

Try comparing Shadow Man or Rayman 2 on N64 and Playstation.

>>1879380
Either this isn't actually pixel-accurate emulation, or the developers were retarded - it shows here that texture filtering was actually used (poorly) on the interface.

>>1879724
That is most definitely pixel-accurate. As for the interface being filtered, it's hard to tell whether that is due to actual texture filtering, or the VI interpolation filter that is applied on top of the whole image. The N64 was a blur filterfest from top to bottom.

>>1879693
*trilinear filtering

I'm not able to find a source right now, but Nintendo thought it was a selling point that the N64 supported trilinear texture filtering. That's why they forced all developers to use it at all times.
When you combine this with the tiny texture storage of the N64 it's no surprise that all games look like a blurry soup. Especially when you do ports.

>>1879732
>That is most definitely pixel-accurate.
I'm not so sure about that. I've been following that thread for the pixel-accurate plug-in, and there still seem to be a lot of people complaining about extra blurring compared to the real thing due to the way the emulation has been handling resolution.

>The N64 was a blur filterfest from top to bottom.
If you referred to texture filtering as a "blur filter" you'd be laughed out of any computer science department.

Texture filtering should actually make lower resolution textures look higher resolution than they really are, not inferior through blurriness. What's happening here is that the source textures are lower resolution than the ones being used on Playstation.

Why are they lower resolution? Because the developers re sampled all textures to 64x64 pixels to fit inside the texture cache. Because they were doing a quick port job, they didn't write any extra code to layer and blend textures together to produce higher resolution outcomes.

It has nothing to do with cartridge space - at least not for these late released N64 games. It's a botched port job, pure and simple.

>>1879732
>VI interpolation filter that is applied on top of the whole image

I don't think it is. Interaces many times don't seem get filtered...or at least as hard as everything else, anyway. You can kind of see it in action in the N64 shot on the right of the image here >>1879536. The health bar is noticeably less blurry than the rest of the screen.

It seems like it depends, really. Like Star Fox 64's high score screen (Taken on the same S-Video cable on the same PVM) looks fine. Text isn't blurry at all and the whole image appears fairly nice and sharp.

So mad I missed that fucking medal on Zoness

>>1879739
While the N64 does technically support trilinear filtering, in practice its games don't even use complete bilinear filtering, let alone trilinear. It instead uses some weird version that only uses three samples instead of the four that real bilinear filtering uses, resulting in jagged-looking textures.

>>1879741
I was more so referring to the interpolation filter that gets applied on top rather than the texture filtering, Obviously the issue with "blurry" textures on many games stems from the low resolution of said textures.

As for the thread, the only issue with pixel accuracy at the moment stems from emulators not handling 480i content correctly, resulting in the vertical resolution being halved on games that use it. Other than that, it is pretty much spot on.

>>1879749
Shit, forgot to post the resized one. Oh well, I guess it gets the point across more clearly. If you look at the "Ranking" icon at the top it looks noticeably more blurred than the rest of the stuff on screen.

The N64 is a fucking weird system.

>people are still fighting over systems that honestly looked pretty shitty on both sides but are still both lovable in their own ways

That said; I know this isn't retro, but I still consider the GC kind of an improvement over the N64 both library and graphics wise..

>>1879623

The blurriness has nothing to do with the storage medium, and a fuck of a lot to do with the architecture. The question would be "How did Nintendo ever think releasing such a clusterfuck of weird hardware would be a good idea?" Only wizards like Factor 5 and Rare really got to push the thing to its limits.

>>1879751
>was more so referring to the interpolation filter that gets applied on top rather than the texture filtering
Yes, there is something a little bit funny about the VI interpolation on earlier N64 models. I heard they adjusted the algorithm (or perhaps a scaling chip) in later models. It handles some resolutions very well and some very poorly.

>>1879739
Nintendo didn't force developers to use texture filtering. Developers wanted to use it - the Playstation's point sampling was considered very unappealing after 3Dfx cards were released on PC. Also as I said above, texture filtering makes textures look better - not worse. If the textures look blurry it's because of their resolution, not the filtering.

Use the sniper rifle cheat on the first level of Perfect Dark and zoom in on the skyscrapers in the distance - it's point sampling. Rare would have been too embarrassed to use it anywhere else.

we already have a thread to discuss retro hardware
>>1873751

>>1879756
Keep in mind some of it may just be due to the font itself. They were probably going for some kind of anti-aliasing effect or some shit, which would have looked OK on a CRT but looks absolutely hideous scaled up on an LCD.

>>1879759
>"How did Nintendo ever think releasing such a clusterfuck of weird hardware would be a good idea?"
N64 hardware is much more like modern 3D hardware than the Playstation, not many people learned how to use it properly at that stage.

>>1879796
Devs were just lazy.
If you really wanted, you could port PSX games to N64 (like RE2, with all the movies and stuff).
But it would've been impossible to port something like CBFD or PD to the PSX.

>>1879315
> jaggies everywhere in the PS1 version

MY EYES

>>1879965
It's his emulator and choice of video plugins. He's literally just upscaling a 320x224 image on his PS1 emulator to his phone or whatever's resolution with absolutely no filtering whatsoever, but the N64 emulator is actually re-rendering it (Though, rather poorly) at the resolution.

>>1879380
>Dat font on the n64 screenshot
Was it a built-in default font of the n64?
I could swear i saw it in every other 64game

>>1879315
daily reminder that if you care abour console wars bullshit, then you are a fagvot who should go back to /v/ or neogaf

>>1879315
No, it was just a shit port. The N64 was the PS3 of the 5th gen. N64 > PS1 ports tended to be shit, too.

>>1879341
>Although I'm not sure if the 3-D models in the N64 version look better because of emulator settings or because of the hardware on the N64.
Hardware on N64. The PS1 could barely render moving 3D models without choking on its own vomit.

>>1879639
>- Uncompressed high resolution textures
The PS1 didn't have clear resolution advantages. The N64 just had to chop textures up into 64x64 or some variation pieces. This did impede fill rate, though.
>- Long cutscenes
You mean like all those fully voiced cutscenes in Perfect Dark, which was 32MB, or the cutscenes every time you walk around a corner in Conker's Bad Fur Day?

>>1879643
>>muh exclusives
>Seriously, if the N64 had used CDs instead of carts I could easily see it being superior to the PS1. Sadly Nintendo didn't and thus began to decay.
That wouldn't have helped in instances where Sony paid developers to simply not make N64 games. (Square and Tomb Raider. And any of their "first party" studios, who were often normal developers before Sony cut off their balls.) Or the fact Nintendo made the N64 so obtuse on purpose so weak pleb developers would be scared away.

>>1879665
>FXAA is retarded, you can achieve the same effect by running your monitor at a lower resolution.
FXAA was an interesting idea with shitty execution. While it is literal cancer, its sucessor, SMAA, is very good.

>>1880145
Holy shit I remember this game.
I didn't know the PS1 version looked so much worse than the N64 version.

God dammit. If Nintendo actually gave proper tools to developers, we could have had HUNDREDS of examples like Rogue Squadron.
N64 could have been perfect.

FUCKING HELL NINTENDO
STOP SHITTING ON THIRD PARTIES.

Reminder that Eurocom replaced all the prerendered cutscenes with ingame ones for the N64 version of 40 Winks. Did a fantastic job of squeezing 300+MB down to 40MB.

Sadly, the game was cancelled, and we can only play it because a pre-release copy leaked.

>>1880154
It was an all-round unfortunate situation. Take the N64 version of Army Men. It was the "original" version, but it used a fucking pissy 8MB cartridge. Even Army Men Sarge's Heroes 2 used an 8MB cartridge. Because 3DO didn't have the money to pay for the larger cartridges.

Because Nintendo made no attempt to slash cartridge overheads, the N64 got subpar ports because devs had to use the cheapest cart they could afford. (Tony Hawk games, too, used 12-16MB cartridges.)

>>1880161
Nintendo is shit when it comes to third party support.
I bet they still wonder why the N64 was overshadowed by the PlayStation and Saturn.

Hint: It wasn't because it used cartridges.

>>1880162
>the N64 was overshadowed by the ... Saturn
What? I don't think I can remember a single person who had a Saturn where I lived. Perhaps that was different in the US, idk.

>>1880259
Saturn was FUCKING HUGE in Japan. Blew the N64 out of the water by a large margin.
It didn't see as much action outside though.

>>1879315
>Also, the early 2D games on PS1 was what the SNES-CD should have been.
No, you're wrong, this is dumb.

>>1879371
what plugin is that?

>>1879315

Uh... you seem really desperate to cling to your shitty copy of Legends on the PS1.

I own 3 versions of Legends (PS1, PC, N64), the one I play the most is N64, why? No loading times, more files to save the game at different parts and I actually think the N64 looks better, the anti aliasing on the N64 makes the pseudo-cel shading on Legends look better than the jaggied PS1 version. Also, PS1 version has a lot of camera and texture flickering problems that were fixed on the N64 port (and also on the PC port, but the PC port has other issues).

So yeah, eat shit with your shitty console war fanboysim, OP, you probably didn't even try Megaman 64 on an actual N64 and a CRT TV.

>Also, the early 2D games on PS1 was what the SNES-CD should have been.

Uh... maybe? Sega Saturn has superior 2D anyways.

>>1879315

This is a PlayStation fanboy

>>1880278
Although the PlayStation version might not look as pretty, the controls just feel much better.
That being said, I'm normally much more fond of the N64 controller.

>>1880286

>the controls just feel much better.

In what way? They feel the same to me, except on the N64 you can also use the 3D stick while the PS1 version doesn't recognize the analogue stick (I still play using the d-pad on the N64 though)

>>1880262
>Saturn was FUCKING HUGE in Japan. Blew the N64 out of the water by a large margin.
Actually, they sold roughly similarly in Japan. Around 5 million units. The difference was the Saturn had games which appealed to Japanese audiences, but the N64's biggest non-Nintendo IP was Goldeneye, a game prone to make Japanese people vomit.

>>1880292
>In what way?
>They feel the same to me

Are you really using your own personal preference to denote someone else's?

>>1880305

>Are you really using your own personal preference to denote someone else's?

What? I said why I prefer the N64 (no loading times, more save files, etc), but controls weren't an issue to me on the PS1 version, neither on the N64... I don't notice any difference control-wise and that's why I was asking.

>>1880278
That was quite rude and uncalled for. Mind I remind you this is not /v/?

>>1880318

OP was the one who started with a very /v/-ish phrase ("Daily reminder...") and console war shitposting.

>>1879342
>artsy indie games
>good
pick one

I haven't played the PC version in a while. I forget, how does it compare to the console ones?

>>1880429

In all honesty, all versions are pretty much the same game, so arguing about which version is "better" is a very subjective matter, they all have their strenghts and weaknesses.

PC version has better textures than both, PS1 and N64, it can run at a higher resolution.
But I think it has some sync problems during cutscenes.

>>1880441
It makes me sad that no one got too far with making a source port of the PC version. The data files have been scoured, and we can rip textures and audio from them, but everything else is a mystery.

I mean, we have the data files and binaries for 3 different versions. I'd think that there would be some way to compare the files to reveal more about how the game works.

As far as I know, the PC version is entirely ASM. The logic should be the same as the other binaries (maybe different opcodes due to different architectures), while the audio and video code will be different. But at least that way the code could be broken into different sections for analysis.

I even hex edited the screen size, but without the rendering code set up to take advantage of it, the game just played in a corner of the screen with the rest black.

play PC version you faggot

>>1880481
>source
>some wonderful group of people would probally end up using to make a Legends "rom hack" and we'll finally get Legends 3
I didn't know I wanted this so much. Damn it, anon, I feel like I've lost something I never had in the first place.

>>1880404
No need, the point stands that it's a sought-after look, one that is still considered beautiful in the same sense as 16bit era pixel art, etc.

>>1879751
>While the N64 does technically support trilinear filtering, in practice its games don't even use complete bilinear filtering, let alone trilinear. It instead uses some weird version that only uses three samples instead of the four that real bilinear filtering uses, resulting in jagged-looking textures.
What? So is the N64 really some frankenstein of engineering and that's why it's so hard to accurately emulate?

>>1879315
>Daily reminder
When is moot going to wise up and bring back wordfilters

>you will never experience Punky Skunk on the SNES-CD

damn you Nintendo

>>1880151
Don't forget the cutscenes of Resident Evil 2 for the N64, that game is magical.

>>1880278
What issues does the PC port has?

and the ps1 is pixelated vomit as always. sure love them pixelated moving "textures"!

>>1881246

Sure, the PS1 version has some pixilation issues, but the draw distance in the N64 version is just shit, it obviously has severely compressed textures and parts of the environment had to be scaled down because of limited cart space.

So how EXACTLY is the PS1 version the worse of the 2? It's literally the best version of the game, so long as you're not a graphics whore and can deal with short load times.

And if you emulate, that eliminates those two issues entirely.

Git gud.

People who whine about pixelation are emulator babies. You don't even notice that shit on a CRT

>>1879315
Mega Man Legends looks better on the PS1 because it uses pixel art as textures, and the draw distance doesn't fuck up the colors.

The n64's texture filtering came in handy with games like Banjo Kazooie. It looked way better blurred than it would pixelated.

>>1881264
i don't give a rats ass about either version dickwad.

>>1881287
only ps1 games that don't look like absolute shit are the ones that rely heavily on pre rendered backgrounds.

>>1881332
>only ps1 games that don't look like absolute shit are the ones that rely heavily on pre rendered backgrounds.
I was going to say something similar about the N64 but I can't think of a single N64 game that doesn't look like absolute shit.

>point upsampling looks better than trilinear
lmdo

I actually like the way the N64 version looks. The fog kind of sucks, but it doesn't bother me that much.

>>1881332
>only ps1 games that don't look like absolute shit are the ones that rely heavily on pre rendered backgrounds.

ayy lmao.

Confirmed for having never owned a Playstation

>I can't think of a single N64 game that doesn't look like absolute shit.

Star Fox 64, battle for naboo, Mischief MakersPaper Mario, Star Soldier, Evangelion, Turok 2. that's about it

>>1880278

Or just do like I do, and play it in a PS2 with texture filtering and fast loading enabled.

>>1881332

>i don't give a rats ass about either version dickwad.

Then why did you post >>1881246
?

Stupid fucking troll.

>>1879315
may the /vr/ gods bless this post

not only are the graphics crippled but the sound is absolute fucking garbage. It's a disgrace to the game's wonderful soundtrack. I have Megaman Legends 1 and 2 and had 64 but I literally sold it the same day I bought it because I couldn't get passed the shit fuck sound.

The graphics are fine honestly, the fog doesn't both me TOO much, but my issue with the graphics is the textures look smoothed over blurry and gross (a trait of N64) compared to Playstation's more obvious, but better looking pixely look. N64 just looks like I'm not wearing my glasses while I'm playing a Playstation game.
Although OP's post has emulator screencaps, they are somewhat accurate accurate to what they actually look like on my consoles + CRT. The polygons look much smoother, pretty much identical to Legends 2, albeit a tad better. However, Legends 2 has ALMOST the same graphics but with no fog.

My issue with MM64 though is the shit fuck sound. They compressed that shit to kingdom come and back, holy shit does it sound fucking awful. The controls are gimped to shit on that retard N64 controller too. Megaman Legends is one of my favorite games and I felt like vomiting after trying to get through the very first twenty minutes of the game. And I don't know if my cart was shit or what but the game literally slowed down to like 2 fps and crashed twice. never happened on any N64 game I have, and I clean my pin connector regularly as well as my carts' contacts.

But it's amazing how no one in this thread has mentioned the awful sound. Maybe it's me being a producer and being irritated by anything than lossless quality (or 320 kbps at the very least).

tl;dr
Legends >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 64 and
I really don't get you if you believe otherwise, I don't know how you could possibly argue that the port is in anyway better other than you just being accustomed to that version because it's what you had the unfortunate fate of playing first.

>>1880856
It is possible to emulate it with a high degree of accuracy now. The problem is it takes a monster computer to do so at playable speeds.

Cen64 looks to be on the right path to combine both accuracy and playability, however.

>>1879342
if anything they would go more for the image on the left as it doesn't interpolate pixels in the textures giving it a more pixelly retro look. also the one on the left is better and looks a hell of lot more "artsy" than the one on the right. The one on the right looks like a beginner gamedev who just got unity a week ago

>>1881694
>And I don't know if my cart was shit or what but the game literally slowed down to like 2 fps and crashed twice. never happened on any N64 game I have, and I clean my pin connector regularly as well as my carts' contacts

Your cart was probably fucked.

I have/had both as a kid, the ps1 version looks better in stills and sounds MUCH better.

The n64 version looks way better when you actually play it. The clipping issues are gone, you no longer see through walls, the floor tiles don't do that wobbly-overlap thing.


This thread is pure shit. Both consoles have their strengths and weaknesses. The n64 runs 3d polys better, and the ps1 has better looking textures and better sound. Every game that was ported from ps1 to n64 ended up seeming shitty because of the gimped textures/audio. Could you imagine how terrible Banjo Kazooie or Perfect Dark would have looked on a ps1 (if the ps1 even had the processing power to play those games).

TL:DR - console wars over 15 year old machines is fucking stupid. At this point everyone who had these as kids should be able to afford/play both for free by now, so there's no reason not to enjoy the best of both worlds.

>>1881804
But how are we supposed to win points? wtf. I thought this was /v2/-Old shit

>graphics on the N64 sucked
wow amazing here grab a cookie

Now play both on a CRT TV and you'll see which looks better.

>>1882048
Still Megaman Legends, the aliasing is pretty much fixed. Megaman 64 looks even more blurry

heh, I like it blurry

>>1882110
which one do you prefer?

>>1882127
>>1882110
You aren't honestly trying to compare two poorly emulated screenshots with shitty filters on them, are you anon?

>>1882110
>>1882127
I choose death

>>1882127
no

>>1882110
>>1882127
The fuck? What emulator is this?

If storage size was equal, there is literally nothing the N64 couldn't run from the PS1 library. However, there is tons of stuff that the PS1 couldn't run from the N64 library.

The PS1 didn't even have a real texture advantage, developer incompetency on N64 aside. If you chopped up large textures into 64x64 pieces on N64 they would have looked better than on PS1 cause it would have been filtered too. PS1 was good for lazy developers cause you could load big textures without chopping them up.

>>1879315
Is there a picture of the left in high res?

>>1882127
This picture has had all bilinear filtering disabled, by the looks of it. I'm pretty sure that grass-dirt transition is smooth on real N64 hardware.

>>1882654
Storage size is a huge part though. what the fuck is the point of all that n64 ram if you're running it off of a measly cart. B64 was designed by morons with out any regard to how it would affect 3rd party devs and that's why it had
>>>>no games

>>1880151

you're saying smothered audio compression means absolutely nothing

sick of /vr/ debates and selective fact slinging

>>1880151
>The PS1 didn't have clear resolution advantages. The N64 just had to chop the resolution

>>1887453
>being this uninformed

>>1880265
go check something like Gunner's Heaven if you don't believe this. or fuck it altogether, because you're right and I was just trying to antagonize just for the fuck of it. I have been here long enough, time to stop posting. have a good night everyone

>>1879628
Descent looks like shit, too.