/vr/ - Retro Games

>>1790797
Miyamoto didn't invent platformers, nor did Carmack invent FPS.

>>1790797
Gunpei Yokoi, he invented Miyamoto.

>>1790797
carmack open sourced his code

As important as Carmack was to FPS, Miyamoto had an influence on more genres. Also, it's obvious by Carmack's earlier games that Miyamoto had an influence on him.

The influence has only been one-way so far as Miyamoto is yet to personally get involved in the production of an FPS.

>>1790823
Either that or Ralph Baer, he fucking invented videgames.

Miyamoto without question. That fact that you're even asking this makes you a moron.

>>1790829
*videogames

>>1790813
>nor did Carmack invent FPS.
He was absolutely imperative to its development though. EVERYTHING about the first person shooter would be different today if Carmack never existed and hadn't brought us the engines that he did. idtech3 still powers COD for instance. Pretty much all online multiplayer today in modern video games owe gratitude towards Carmack's work. He was easily one of the most important and innovative figures in the history of video games.

Didn't people realize Carmack was great when he managed to reproduce the first level of Super Mario Bros 3 on pc in 1990? (because of how hard it was to create a sidescroller in that hardware back then)?

They are very different people. Miyamoto is IIRC an industrial designer and an idea guy. He would draw a level of Super Mario and take it to the programmers and tell them to create exactly that. He made games by drawing.

Carmack is a programmer, he may be a genius, and I don't know if he has good ideas as in gameplay, or if he could design a fun game.

Pic related is what Miyamoto would do at work

People like Miyamoto, Tom Hall, John Romero, etc. are the life blood of video games. Carmack is just a tech jockey.

>>1790886
>Didn't people realize Carmack was great when he managed to reproduce the first level of Super Mario Bros 3 on pc in 1990?

This. Miyamoto himself was an influence on Carmack.

>>1790909
>tech
>not the lifeblood of games

They're both extremely important. Designers design around the tech limitations. Programmers push those limitations.

>>1790797
Miyamoto.

Unfortunately these days he's a liability and he's not going anywhere.

Miyamoto for games I care about

I don't think you could say that either one is objectively "more important to gaming"

>>1790857
He made the engines, not the games. Now, his engines are rather good, but in his absence, someone else could have easily made something functional. And COD using a modified idtech3 today is a bad thing.

>>1790989
they wouldn't be able to release a new game a year if they didn't cut a few corners.

If there wasn't any Miyamoto-san, then the situation which used to be only in Europe would be everywhere, noone cared about consoles and instead everyone wanted a home computer

>>1790797
Carmack defined a genre. Miyamoto defined a generation.

>Game designer
>Programmer
They're not really comparable. Miyamoto has no programmer skills and Carmack probably has no creativity given he's done nothing notable with his new space age technology

>>1791061
>Miyamoto has no programmer skills
Pretty sure that isn't right.

>>1790886

umm I dont think that was carmacks doing. I watched a video with romero talking about this and I dont think it was carmack that came up with the scrolling trick.

I know this is /vr/, but are either of them really even relevant anymore? Are you asking which of the two was more important or influential historically?

>>1791119
Miyamoto is still making games and Carmack is doing shit with the Octopus Riff.

>>1790857
no. just stop.

Carmack of course. His influence to all modern games can barely be understated.

Real question: does anyone compare to the real master? Carmack comes close, but his legacy wouldn't exist without him.

>>1791132
you stop faget

>>1790857
I may be off base with this, but it seems to me that the current diversity of gaming, and the penetration into the mass culture is because of the Xbox. Since MIcrosoft had such a hard time getting Japanese developers on board, they turned to Western companies, right? Western companies who made games better suited to Western gamers (Fable, Halo, COD, GTA...)

Microsoft never would have gained such a stron following if not for Halo: CE, right? I mean, Halo outsold the system it was developed for! Would Halo have existed if not for Doom and Quake?

Could we, then, thank Carmack for Bioshock Infinite?

>>1791176
You are overrating Halo a little bit. Perhaps because it sells a lot in the USA.

Cod, GTA, Pokemon and Assasin's Creed are bigger franchises. And as bad as the Wii U is doing, handheld Mario platformers and Kart still outsell Halo.

It is true that online multiplayer first person shooters are the most popular genre nowadays, Carmack was very important for that, and Microsoft was very important in bringing the online gaming + fps combo to consoles.

>>1791206
Hell, even Goldeneye 007 (N64) outsold Halo: CE (and by several million).

Without either of them, the landscape would certainly be different, but in the grand scheme, the gaming juggernaut would still have carried on progressing, in due time reaching similar areas to what the two of them tapped.

If forced to choose, I'd say Carmack's software groundwork, and impact on the advancement, and increased demand for, gaming hardware, was more directly important than Miyamoto's conceptual work.

>>1790827
>The influence has only been one-way so far as Miyamoto is yet to personally get involved in the production of an FPS.

Looks like you forgot something.

>>1791320
god i forgot about that game
i was so excited
and then so disappointed

Sorry for linking Kotaku, people they have this video of Carmack talking about how hard Super Mario Bros 3 is after replaying it not long ago.
He concludes videogames have gotten better.

>>1791298
I think Miyamoyo was influential in 2 ways, first for what he did in the 80s with sidescrolling platformers where the most popular genre for 3 gens. And second for what he did with 3D games in the transition from 2d to 3D games with both Mario 64 and Ocarina.

If Carmack does something revolutionary with the Occulus he will definitely be more important.

>>1791331
forgot the link

http://kotaku.com/5931474/ids-john-carmack-gets-a-reminder-on-how-mario-used-to-kick-our-ass

Romero > Carmack

Michael Toy and Glenn Wichman.

Look it up.

>>1791119
Of course they are. What the fuck?

>>1791331
in both cases it was the way the industry was heading regardless of his input. Platformers were a successful genre, but they would have gotten by, and progressed without Miyamoto's ideas, and while Super Mario 64 was grand and all, it was still just one title amongst the tidal wave of innovative games on the 3D wave.

>>1790813
>you have to invent a video game genre to be important

>>1790797
More important are the nameless grunts who did all the hard work on your favorite games. Not these wankers.

>>1791402
/thread

>>1791347
how's that Daikatana going for you

>>1790989
Him and Romero literally made Doom themselves.

>>1790924

>FuhQuake

Fuhk yea we used to LAN this shit.

Carmack hands down

FPS & Online gaming is all the rage these days, Carmack's influence is still very much around
Also Mods, while it was Romero who made a push for Modding, Carmack of course made it all possible

Miyamoto's influence ended in the mid 90's, when was the last time we saw a Mario/Zelda clone that wasn't just another shitty le indie retro throwback, 3D platformers are dead sady

Miyamoto honestly hasn't done anything in years except ruin the new paper mario, while Carmack is at the head of the next VR revolution

Im a massive Nintendo fanboy & im not too fussed on Id's games, but i would for sure say objectively Carmack is more influential

>>1791402
Carmack did most of the work on the technical side though

In fact he locked himself in a room all day every day, so much so the rest of the guys at Id were worried about him

Ken Silverman was a lot younger than Carmack when he made the Build engine...

>>1791471
>Miyamoto's influence ended in the mid 90's
His influence has permeated every genre to the extent that it's hard to trace it back. Mario 64 practically defined open-world games (which y'know, are still the rage) and that's just a surface-level observation.

>while Carmack is at the head of the next VR revolution
Everybody's jumped on the VR bandwagon now. Sony's VR will probably outsell Oculus. At most he's a co-leader with a dozen other people. Also VR could fail again like it already has several times.

>>1791536
>Mario 64 practically defined open-world games

Just no
Might as well call Quake open world as well since some of the maps were bigger than Mario 64's & Quake alpha came out 6 months before Mario 64

>>1791536
>Mario 64 practically defined open-world games (which y'know, are still the rage) and that's just a surface-level observation.

This is what Nintenyearolds actually believe.

>>1790797
Miyamoto for sure. Without him, id wouldn't have even come up with its first major hit.

Miyamoto without a doubt

His creations have influenced gaming for 30 years

>>1791536
>Mario 64 practically defined open-world games
>I don't know anything about the history of video gaming

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Underworld:_The_Stygian_Abyss

>>1791570
>Without him, id wouldn't have even come up with its first major hit.

Commander Keen? What the hell does Miyamoto have to do with that?

>>1791071
>Pretty sure that isn't right.
Cept it is. Absolutely zero knowledge in programming. He's an industrial designer and an artist.

>>1791579
Carmack used his company's computers to make a clone of Super Mario Bros 3. They brought this clone to Nintendo as an attempt to get Nintendo to support them in bringing Mario to the PC. When this plan feel through, they changed a lot about it and created Commander Keen with what was left over.

>>1791602
>Carmack used his company's computers to make a clone of Super Mario Bros 3

They used it as a base to run tests a side-scroller on PC's. Mario 3 was the most popular at the time so they used that. Had it been some other side-scroller, then they would've used that one instead.

>When this plan feel through, they changed a lot about it and created Commander Keen with what was left over.

This is just so wrong I don't know where to begin. First off, they didn't use any assets of that game, if they had, they would've had their asses sued off by Nintendo. Secondly, it wasn't a clone, it was a remake of Super Mario 3 on PC which Carmack initially was using as test to see how well he could run side-scrolling technology on a computer. And lastly, they simply used the same programming methods they used to make the mario remake (which could've been any extremely popular side-scroller of the day) to make their own game for PC, called Commander Keen.

Miyamoto hat literally nothing to do with it.

>>1791602
It's a nice connection, but they initially made it for a joke. The fact it was Mario 3 was incidental, and it could have been any side-scroller used for the base.

>>1791554
>>1791574

I'm gonna add the words "fully 3D" in front of "open world". Come at me.

Miyamoto. Without him, I'm not sure what it would be like post-crash.

>>1791692
There would def be a lot less weebs and retarded nintendo fanboys in the vidya world, and computer gaming probably would've become the standard instead of consolefags.

>>1791662
And I might note that just because Mario was one of the first commercially successful "fully polygon-based 3D" open world game, it doesn't mean that if Mario didn't happen we would still be playing at best Crash Bandicoot "on-rail" style 3D games or maybe even 2D games. The influence, as you are calling it, is not as big as you think, games which we see nowadays wouldn't be changed at all, or do you think that we will have so much advanced 2D games that they would require every hertz out of processors nowadays?

>>1791692
Home computers / arcades would be the main source of games instead of consoles of that era, nothing more, nothing less.

>>1791629
>First off, they didn't use any assets of that game,
>an engine isn't an asset

Durp

>>1791697
>And I might note that just because Mario was one of the first commercially successful "fully polygon-based 3D" open world game, it doesn't mean that if Mario didn't happen we would still be playing at best Crash Bandicoot "on-rail" style 3D games or maybe even 2D games. The influence, as you are calling it, is not as big as you think, games which we see nowadays wouldn't be changed at all, or do you think that we will have so much advanced 2D games that they would require every hertz out of processors nowadays?
Nigger, even Gabe Newell said that Mario 64 was one of the reasons (along with Quake) he thought something like Half Life would work.

>>1791709
So, you really think that without Mario we would never see any 3D game ever? Even if you consider that there is a lot of pre-Mario 3D games which actually did a pretty decent job on how the whole game would play? Well, maybe in your world if Mario never happened you may imagine that every game dev would think
"Well, my game is completely flat, some hills sound like a good idea. But nobody has ever successfully did that so it isn't going to work, we would rather stick to the completely flat terrain and spawn some pre-rendered 2D sprites there, that seems like a much more successful plan"
but in reality anything like that wouldn't happen.
3D games as you know them today wouldn't change at all, face it, take out your fanboyism and nostalgia out of your rectum and face the fact that it isn't the most important thing which has ever happened to the 3D genre and that 3D games would continue evolving even if there wasn't any Mario

>>1791745
Yeah let's not talk about what would happen in a theoretical alternative universe without Miyamoto and start talking about our one. Just look at develop interviews for 3D games made post Mario 64 and Ocarina of Time. Who do developers source as their inspiration for their games? Dun dun dun. Miyamoto and those two games!

I also read somewhere that the Thief 1 developers were heavily inspired by Goldeneye on N64 but that's another story

>>1791705
>an engine isn't an asset
>Implying they used Mario's engine you autistic faggot

Holy shit nintenyearolds are fucking stupid.

>>1791692
America would probably wallow in it's crash, Sega might not have dared release the Master System without Nintendo testing the waters with the NES, and the US gaming world would be even more of a niche industry, behind Japan and Europe.

The likes of John Carmack would still be working magic on computers, though.

Miyamoto is a better game designer (or at least more productive). Carmack however is an absolute math wizard.

Comparing the two together is like putting John Lennon next to Einstein.

>>1791176
> the current diversity of gaming, and the penetration into the mass culture is because of the Xbox

I'd say the PlayStation moreso than the Xbox. The PlayStation was the first console I know of that became a popular thing for adults; a lot of adult guys who wouldn't have touched Mario World or Banjo-Kazooie got a PlayStation, and a lot of the top-selling PlayStation titles were aimed at an older audience than most games previously (Resident Evil, Gran Turismo, Silent Hill, Medal of Honor). The guys in Friends had a PlayStation, had conversations about it, a bunch of games were featured -- and in the 90s, you couldn't get more mainstream than Friends. The PlayStation 2 was the first console to get significant coverage on the 6 o'clock news, as if people in general cared about it rather than just kids (as with the Game Boy and SNES) and geeks (as with Doom and PC gaming).

Of course, the PS1 released at a time when the first generation who grew up with in-home gaming (ZX Spectrum, Atari, Intellivision, etc) were becoming adults, so it was probably an inevitablity. Still, the PlayStation definitely had major mainstream appeal before the Xbox did, and more of it. My nan still calls all games PlayStations.

>>1790909
>Tom Hall
kek.

Miyamoto. His work in Super Mario Bros was what exploded the NES's popularity, and the NES is what brought video gaming back from the crash and restored confidence in it as a medium. For that alone, he's more influential. But his work in Donkey Kong and Super Mario Bros made the 2D platformer THE genre of 1985-1995, when easily 90% of console games were 2D platformers following in SMB's wake.

Carmack's important, but just not on the same scale.

>>1791848
>being this blinkered

>>1791402
>>1791405
>useless code monkeys doing work that literally anyone who went to college for a comp sci degree could do are more important than visonaries

Hahaha, good one.

>>1791550
>>1791554
>In an interview with The New York Times, Rockstar Games head writer and VP of creativity Dan Houser, when asked about influence from other games stated, "Anyone who makes 3D games who says they've not borrowed something from Mario or [The Legend of Zelda] [on the Nintendo 64] is lying."[71]
No but, I'm sure that your shitty dungeon hack that five people played was more influential. People just don't talk about it because it's so obvious it doesn't need to be said.

>>1790797
They were both influential, but Yokoi, LB or Yamma were more influential.

>>1791662
>fully 3d
>open world

With vehicles in 1991.

>>1791045
What a better world that would have been.

>>1791871
You're a fucking joke.

>>1790826
>carmack open sourced his code

Well Assembly language games are kind of already "open source". You can do anything with them. You just have no guideposts as to what any of this code means.

>>1791080

Carmack came up with the scrolling trick. He and the others (minus Romero) stayed up one night and made "Dangerous Dave in Copyright infrigment"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj4HJkeQSg0

They then put it on a floppy disk and left it on Romero's desk with instructions to run it. Romero was floored. Blown away.

Then the rest of ID redid all of SMB3. I have not found any videos of this version sadly. Then they sent this away to Nintendo asking if they were interested in a DOS port of SMB3. Sadly Nintendo declined.

They then used this technology to create Commander Keen. Tom Hall came up with the story and setting for that game.

blue sky productions/looking glass studios may be more important to games than both of them

Consoles vs PC
Online vs Offline
West vs East

Overall, I'd say Miyamoto
FPS games, online multiplayer, etc just aren't important enough to top what Shiggy and his crew did for videogames all over the world.

And considering where the industry is now, in its weakened state based on pay-to-play online content and DLC and socializing PIONEERED by PC-gaming and FPS titles...

>>1791592
At the very least, I'm sure he has some intuitive understanding of how computer programs work.

>>1790797
Is that Steven King?

>>1791554
ultima underworld was far more influential than the shitty elder scrolls series. There hasn't been a single good game in that franchise.

>>1792041
>the rest of ID redid all of SMB3
Did they really? I thought they only made the first level.

If they actually recreated the entire game of SMB3 in what is essentially a prototype Commander Keen engine, well... kudos to them, and it's a tragedy that such a historical piece of art is lost.

>>1790797
carmack wrote first pc game with dynamic screen updates, similar to horizontal scrolling platformers of the games on nes/snes (something which pc's at the time were thought not to be able to).

He essentailly revitalized pc gaming at the time.

Carmack pushed the technology envelope, and i think that is the important part. He constantly raises bar for competitors and everyone benefits from that.

>>1790797
Miyamoto simply because he helped to bring gaming back from the dead as well as Nintendo as a whole. This is why even though I haven't bought a Nintendo console in a long time I never want to see them go out of business.

Carmack was a coder. A damn good one, but stoll only a coder. he alone wouldn't have made Doom, or PC FPS gaming. It was a joint venture between some major figureheads of ID.

>>1791536
>Sony's VR will probably outsell Oculus
No way. For one thing the reaction people have to Sony's VR is not nearly as impressive as they have to OR. Secondly Sony's VR is expensive as fuck. OR is aiming for like a $300-$400 price point last I heard.

>>1791871
Gaben also says Mario 64 is his favourite game of all time.

I don't get fags that talk shit about consoles and seem to imply that hardly anything has come out of them that's significant. It's pretentious and silly. Actual dudes that are big in the PC industry have love for all video games, as any normal person who enjoys video games would do. Take Romero's top five video games for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vh3pdzL7koI

>You will never have Romero's god tier hair genetics

>>1792472
You missed the important detail. Facebook bought Oculus. People don't want to be surveillance/profiled while they are playing.

>>1792504
>People don't want to be surveillance/profiled while they are playing.
Uh, how is that gonna happen? It's not like Oculus has a built in camera that inspects your face while you wear it. I doubt it's gonna upload info to Facebook that you're playing Quake, omg. Hell everything you do on the internet is already being monitored and stored by your good buddy the NSA. I'm sure they have a nice fat section on you anon.

But yeah you're a moron.

>>1792529
Yeah Facebook just bought it out of the goodness of their heart.

Go away shill.

>>1790886
Is miyamoto really that kind of genius and programmers have to just trust the seemingly crazy asshole?

>>1791848
>all this America-centricism

>>1792504
>people actually believe Sony is somehow better than Facebook

>>1792534
lol nice strawman. They bought it to profit out of it in some way obviously. They're hoping to integrate it into social media; use it as a way for people to interact with each other in virtual reality. Nobody cares about what video games you're playing anon.

Holy shit this thread
>this person isn't important because even though his games were culturally relevant and were well documented to influence multiple generations of developers, there's some game some where that did this one thing first

Here's a hint. A game being influential doesn't mean that it was the first of its kind, or that every single element of it was never seen before. It means that a lot of people played it and were inspired by it to make their own games, drawing elements from it either in full or in part.

I bet if Bubsy 3D was released before Super Mario 64, there are people in this thread right now who would hold up Michael Berlyn as being more influential than Miyamoto.

>>1792537
Miyamoto is the manager of his studio. So yes, there is some degree of trust there.

>>1792537
Well if you're on his team, you either carry out his orders, or you're out on your arse. If you're a third party studio, and you're disinclined to acquiesce to his requests, he'll simply pull the rights to the game you're working on.

>>1792583

[shilling intensifies]

both are terrible companies, at least sony was good at one point

>>1792606
And when was that? 1980?

>>1792609
yes.

Miamoto and carmack are too different. Its like asking who is more influential in movies, a famous writer or a famous visual effect maker. both relate to different aspects of design.

It's difficult to compare game industry people cause theyre all too different. ive worked on a few games and even im not sure what my fucking title would he cause i ended up being part of 20 different aspects. Carmack is a programmer, engine guy while miamoto is a designer, artist, level guy while Kojima is a director, writer, designer and Mikami is different from that and iwata was different than that and etc etc.

Id say Miamoto for his other projects overall, but tough choice

>>1791364
Yes, but you had tons of tons of tons of 3D platformers after Mario64 that was designed like shit.
Because they did not learn their lesson.

>>1791883
Did it actually work? Or is it just "but muh precursor!"

>>1791883
this is like saying that Columbus did not influence greatly world history because the Vikings reached the Americas before.

>>1792719
You guys are good at analogies

It's like, yeah

>>1791471
>Miyamoto's influence ended in the mid 90's, when was the last time we saw a Mario/Zelda clone that wasn't just another shitty le indie retro throwback, 3D platformers are dead sady
Well, SM64 did essentially create the 3D platformer, OoT is still a relevant influence to most adventure and JRPG games.

Also I really loved Paper Mario: Sticker Star.

>>1790797
Neither. The answer is the players.
The players are the ones that give extrinsic value to those creators' creations. Without their collective years of play hours and vast wealth of money spent on the gaming hobby, the games themselves wouldn't be important.

>>1792814
lol

>>1790829
the first video game was fox hound, not pong

>>1792814
This. The last thing gaming needs is "rock star" game developers. That already happened before with John Romero. Daikatana soon followed.

>>1791471
>of the next VR revolution

VR is like 3D movies, it will always be nothing more than a gimmick.

>>1791696
This. Miyamoto ruined gaming by reviving consoles and allowing for chinkshit to get popular. Fuck that hack.

>>1792814
gay

>>1791402
So Iwata? Here's a screencap someone made of a post I made about of some of his accomplishments.

>>1791696
>>1793126
>PC mustard race baiting
>>>/v/

Carmack for sure

myamoto was basically an artist who ripped off arcades

Super mario was a copy of pacman's arcade

And zelda was a copy of several older adventure games

>>1792071
ultima underworld wasn't open-world, though. have you even played either game?

Carmack of course. He stands for everything that makes PC gaming superior in the technological front.

>>1792068
>intuitive understanding of how computer programs work

LOL all the designer idea guys like him get weeded out of real computing schools like MIT

Neither. fucking christ does everything have to be a competition. I hate being associated with gamers now. We are the worst marginalized group that turns around and marginalizes ourselves.

>>1791865
Why don't you enroll in CS? I'm sure you'll end up at Google.

Think you're cut out for graphics programming, kid?

>>1791536
>Sony's VR will probably outsell Oculus

We have yet to see how all the competitors even compare to the Rift. Frankly, they all gave me the impression they were rushed to the market to try to desperately beat the Rift to it.

Also, the Rift is compatible with the PC. This opens up pretty much infinite possibilities and applications, not just games. Apparently some military out there tried using the Developer Kit to drive tanks, which is basically the concept of the usual simulator on PC, except real.

>>1792504
People don't care. That's some /g/ tier stupidity.

Yu Suzuki

>>1791176

You'd be surprised at the large amount of quirky japanese games on the Xbox, both in the US and Japan only. Xbox turned to western devs yea, but they couldn't really afford to turn anybody away so they sought out a ton of companies and let them do as they please.

>>1791865

This guy.

No need to be so abrasive anon, but it is true, this director worship is pretty retarded, it wasn't just Miyamoto, it wasn't just Carmack, it was a group of people working together.

>>1793447
Metal Wolf Chaos is the most American Japanese game ever made. I don't get why it never saw a US release.

>>1793237
>Super mario was a copy of pacman's arcade

>>1793237
>Super mario was a copy of pacman's arcade

>>1792059
How's that Radiaki coming along for you m8

>>1791347
Yin and Yang m8

>>1790797
Both have had significant impact in their genres though for different reasons.

Miyamoto is a design guy, Carmack is a tech guy.
Though Miyamoto hasn't really been relevant in years. Carmack though has been pushing TV and monitor manufacturers to improve screens recently. So even with the prior technological pushes, he's still doing something worthwhile to push gaming forward. Miyamoto on the other hand, being a design guy has only been worth Nintendo making garbage games recently.

At this juncture Carmack is far more important because he pushes progress and Miyamoto holds progress back.

Ultimately there's no way of knowing how long it would it take for similar genres or tech to have been generated in it's absence. The tech likely would have come far faster with the need though. Genre's aren't need based things, they're idea based things. No one says for example, we need an action adventure game so that's we should invent. They just happen to make a game and it fits with their idea of what they want and genres and tropes are added onto because of that. Though given a limited set of things to do they would likely have happened in some other order. Adventure was a semi action adventure game and a lot of the rudimentary concepts were kind of in place for it. We wouldn't know overhead action adventure in the same light, but we'd likely still have gotten it still.

>>1790886
>(because of how hard it was to create a sidescroller in that hardware back then)?
It wasn't very well done and it's not really that much smoother than some contemporaries at the time honestly. It's smoother than plenty of games and about the same as others. It's not something that developers couldn't figure out. It's a good sign that yeah he did have it at least mostly down early.

Carmack has never been anything more than a tech pusher and we can see quite clearly not how cancerous that has become for the creation of quality games. People like Miyamoto are the real driving force behind the industry.

>>1796272
Tech pushers allow more room for talented people like Miyamoto to ply their trade.
It's the hacks in Miyamoto's creative line of work, the publishers instructing them, and bell-end consumers buying shit, that are the cancer.

>>1790797
carmack is a poser, unfortunately

>>1796364
lolwut? how? What exactly do you mean by that?

>>1796978
because his greatest achievements were done by other people, like michael abrash

and when people think of doom and stuff they dont think of the coding, they think of the levels, which were done by various people under romero's direction

carmack is just in it for the dosh

>>1790797
Miyamoto stopped being relevant after OoT, Carmack is still doing cool new stuff (even though it involves Facebook now).

>>1792068
He doesn't. When they were making donkey kong the programmers bitched at him for asking them to do things they thought were impossible. It's like if some guy asked you to make a game "that could do anything". How they managed I don't know, but I do know Minamoto has a tendency of trashing developers who fuck up or aren't good enough

>>1791045
So the world would have been better without Miyamoto.

>>1791697
>Home computers / arcades would be the main source of games instead of consoles of that era, nothing more, nothing less.
>Gaming would be saved

>>1793430
this. nigga invented (Outrun) and popularized (Virtual fighter) 3D gaming

>>1797057
Well yeah. His games were popular, but it's not like they were any good. Gaming as a whole would be better if none of those chinks never made a console.

>>1798278
This. Nintendo's games were never anything special. They've always been shallow, vapid novelties with nonexistent story, flat characters, irritating music, and repetitive gameplay.

>>1798261
>>1793430
I gotta agree here too. There's a difference between just making good games and then actually influencing the industry. While Miyamoto has actually influenced the industry with some revolutionary mechanics like different missions in the same level, Yu Suzuki overall is far more influential in gaming

>>1790823
I pray to the ghost of Gunpei Yokoi every night

>>1791176
>thanking anyone for bioshock infinite
plz go.

>>1797020
People don't think about how their car's engine works while they're driving, that doesn't make it any less important to the overall machine. Without it, you'd be sitting in a big, immobile hunk of metal.

Without Carmack's engine work, there would be no Doom. Those textures and that music would just be files on a computer. Anybody who understands the first thing about game engines/graphics coding realizes that Carmack is a goddamned genius, who made incredible strides in 3D graphics. If you've ever played an FPS at any point in your life, you've played something that owns at least a portion of its existence to John Carmack.

>>1790797

carmack

Engineers > Idea guys

>>1797020
>in it for the dosh
>literally slept by his computer with no mattress when id first started
All he wanted was to make games and have enough for pizza and diet soda.

>>1792504
Nice tinfoil hat.
Facebook just wants money.
They aren't trying to play out some 1984 scenario.

>>1799501
>They aren't trying to play out some 1984 scenario.
That's how Facebook their money. Wake up sheeple.

>>1799547
Not him, but if you don`t want to be profiled then I hope you already quit all modern games on PC and consoles. They are all trying to gather data and bind the customer to some service. Facebook is not that special in that regard.

>>1799972
>If you don't want to be profiled, you should kill yourself or move off the planet.

FTFY

People are always going to be watching you. It's not cool, and a ton of it needs to be toned the fuck down, but it's something you have to deal with living here on planet Earth.

>>1799981
Well, I kinda disagree if it comes to gaming. I simply don`t play those games. I don`t like the idea of buying a game, that is under remote control over the internet. There are enough good games out there, so I just skip the new ones that rely on such services.

I hate most first person shooters and multiplayer games. Easy choice for me.

>>1796272
>give people the tools that will allow their design to actually exist
>cancerous

>>>/v/

>>1797048
What's the full story behind that?

>>1791045
Wow that sounds pretty good.

>>1797048
I don't know that it's so much Miyamoto trashing developers that fuck up, more of Japan's fucking weird work ethic/corporate culture. If your boss tells you to do something, you'd better fucking figure out a way to do it, or else you bring shame on family.

Romero > Carmack

Carmack is like Einstein, if he hadn't existed, 3 other people would have done precisely the same thing within a year or two

>>1801281
Romero >>>>>>>> Carmack

Carmack is a fucking nerd who felt uncomfortable with all the glory Romero was getting and that's why he was fired.

>>1798951
>who made incredible strides in 3D graphics
He's smart. But that's a giving him too much credit.
Even engine wise you can find indie devs who produce more impressive engines. It didn't take long for other devs to do their own thing. Also, 3D tech would mostly still move around because Carmack was more a disciplined and observant implementor. Knowledge is as good as intellect when programming. He didn't invent BSP trees for Doom. It was conceptualized in the late 60's and developed by the 80s and expanded on in acadamia. As a programmer the absolutely best thing you can do for programming, especially engines. Is keep up on R&D and theoretical stuff coming from schools where they do the hardest work and apply them. In fact that's how most industry works. Schools and R&D industries with professorships are generally ahead of the game. By following their work you end up ahead of whoever isn't paying attention in the industry. It's smart to do that and if you can follow the heavier academic stuff you generally aren't an intellectual slouch. He deserves credit for being a top notch engineer and doing all the right things and landing himself around the right people. The best thing about Carmack isn't his massive technological leaps he himself makes it's that he takes known technologies, and gets them implemented early in practical use and in a fairly hardy system. One of Quake and Doom's best feature is that they're significantly less buggy than many games were, especially at release. No one removes all the bugs and some of those bugs actually made the series what it is today.

>>1801281
>>1801286
>not relevant since daikatana

Suck it down fanboys.

>>1801853
Yeah. How can anybody even argue? Romero had TOTAL CREATIVE CONTROL AND VIRTUALLY UNLIMITED MONEY AND HE MADE DAIKATANA. HACK OF THE YEAR ALL YEARS.

I'll tell you one thing. If either Miyamoto or Carmack did not exist, the video game industry would be largely the same. People would not just sit around and ask "Gee, I really wish there was a good shooting game in first person or a good jumping game." The fact they did what they did means we got the stuff sooner, not that we got it at all. I'm saying this because I hate the amount of worship these guys get, while every other developer throughout the 80's/90's gets so little credit.

>>1791871
You might as well just say "I'm too young to remember VCR's"

>>1791692
Videogames would have recovered from the crash with or without Nintendo. The particular way events unfolded is not the only possibility. If the NES hadn't come around, likely video game enthusiasts would have moved over to PC's.

>>1802087
The crash literally only applied to home consoles in the US, anyway. Arcades and, as you said, home computers, were pretty much thriving from 1983-onwards.

>>1802019
Except miyamoto was a designer, not programmer.
I really can't imagine the mid 80s or even /vr/, retro hipsters or the speedrunner communities without mario and zelda. That shit was iconic.

ITT:
>"Somebody else would have done it without them"
>"Giving credit to pioneering figures is stupid"
>Accomplishment is a pointless illusion

Why so nihilistic, /vr/?

>>1801947
Clearly he didn't have virtually unlimited money

>>1801281
>if

>>1802087
Consoles would have happened. PCs can't get as large as consoles based on the principles of usage. PC would have seen growth, but ultimately gaming would have had a console, some console come in and do what Nintendo did once it was good or different enough. Mass market sales come from consoles, people who stick a cart or disk in a game turn it on and start playing. Something without a lot of keys or options. Until that happened, home gaming would have stayed far smaller than what it is today. Though once PCs were far simpler to use, out of the command line era, gaming would grow. Because that's how people work.

Both are important guys, right?

Carmack himself admires Miyamoto and even did that SMB prototype for PC, I'm sure Shiggy also admires Carmack, then again, they're different kind of guys, Miyamoto is a designer and creator, Carmack is a tech wiz.
Carmack should be compared to Gunpei Yokoi or Satoru Iwata (back when he was a programmer, not the Nintendo president), not Miyamoto.

>>1801286
Romero wasnt fired though it was a mutual decision. Romero stepped down because he didn't have anything to offer anymore just like the guy who left after doom whose name I cant remember

I think Romero was overall more influential than Carmack. Sure Carmack made the engines that made everything else look ancient but it was ultimately Romero's design that made Doom the most influential video game of all time. Plus Romero coined the term "deathmatch" and gave birth to multiplayer fps.

>>1803051
I'm pretty sure Carmack, or the entire design of Doom, had something to do to get in Miyamoto's head the obsession of having first-person games (he has wanted a first-person Zelda since the SNES days) and the fact Metroid Prime was first person because Retro could make an engine that satisfied that crave for first-person exploration.

>>1803347
Nigger you gotta be kidding. Even Phantasy Star (1987) had first person dungeon crawling

>>1790797
Miayamoto copies stuff from games that have already been made and is like the Steve Jobs of gaming in terms of ability, influence and actual contributions.

Carmack is a legendary programmer that defined an era.

I'll go with Carmack.

If you want a fun book of the adventures at id software while quake was being made, read Michael Abrash's Graphics Programming Black Book. It is supposed to teach you about graphics programming but most people find the little anecdotes about his time at id software working on quake to be the most interesting part of the book. Every chapter has a nice little story to go with it.

I am pretty sure the whole thing is online free (legally).

Miyamoto is to game design what Carmack is to game programming.

I have no idea what Miyamoto's programming skills are like, but I like his ideas. I also have no idea how much influence Carmack had with the game mechanics design of doom and quake. After studying his game engines I can see that is isn't magic even I can understand how the game works.

>>1803567
>I also have no idea how much influence Carmack had with the game mechanics design of doom and quake

He didn't have any, Hall and Romero made those games what they are. Although Quake would be very different today if Carmack would've finished his engine earlier.

However I think Carmack had a significant say in the way Doom 3 turned out though I can't really remember if that's true

>>1794152
>>1793909
Pac land

Whatever

>>1803593
nintendo didn't invent shit, everyone knows this but deluded fanboys. they just popularized everything.

>>1803603
To be more correct, Nintendo took elements that had already been invented and brought them to a sufficiently high standard for them to become popular.

>>1790823
> In the interview he suggested that expensive cutting edge technology can get in the way of developing a new product.[10]

damn. we need more thinking like that these days.

>>1803613
only because sega brought some actual competition to the table. if it weren't for them we'd still be in the 8 bit era. (thought some I'm sure would love that.)

>>1803613
>Nintendo took elements that had already been invented and brought them to a sufficiently high standard for them to become popular.

That's pretty delusional, bro. That's some strong fanboyism.

>>1803645
>That's pretty delusional, bro. That's some strong fanboyism.

No, it's fact. How else did they become popular? A reptilian conspiracy made people buy those Nintendo games? Or maybe it's because Nintendo got the formula right.

>>1803020
While he was making Daikatana he did. Eidos closed down other studios just to keep funneling money his way.

Then Daikatana finally came out and was a steaming pile of shit. Money tends to dry up real fast when you're exposed for the hack you really are.

>>1803668
Nintendo got popular because they marketed really well and their console was the first to actually look loke arcade games. It was crazy seeing arcade-tier graphics at home when the best modt had before that was an Atari.

>>1803676
To become mega popular you pretty much have to get everything right. Don't pretend that Nintendo was so rich in the early NES days that they could blanket absolutely everything in marketing. That money only came later.

It was the perfect storm of good graphics and good gameplay.

>>1803683
You said
>Nintendo took elements and brought them to a sufficiently high standard for them to become popular.

Which is grade A bullshit that implies that Nintendo did those game best.

>>1803761
Doesn't mean Nintendo did those best in a timeless sense, more that there has been particular times where the best example of a particular genre has been a Nintendo product because it raised the standard to the "good enough" level.

It's irrelevant to the argument whether later games were released that surpassed the Nintendo standard.

>>1803421

>Miyamoto
>American NES

already retarded picture, didn't bother with the rest of the comparisions.

>>1803421
Gemstone Warrior had a life bar before Dragon Buster.

>>1790797
Carmack is a hack who made Doom and that's it.

>>1804048
>doom
>the most influential video game of all time
>that's it

That aside no Carmack built the engine; Romero and Hall were the true masterminds behind Doom.

>>1804057
>>the most influential video game of all time

Now, I won't say Doom wasn't one of the most influential games, but THE most influential of all time? Come on bruh. It's not even Wolfenstein 3D.

>>1804059
With doom came multiplayer fps. LAN gaming. Modding. It sold over 11 million copies in a time when computers were not only scarce but not used for gaming either. Bill Gates himself used doom to promote windows 95.

Wolfenstein 3D has nothing on that. NO game has nothing on that.

>>1804069

Yeah I know how important Doom is, but I can also list other games that are equally as important, maybe not with things such as Modding or LAN, but regarding other aspects of video game history that may be equally as important, or even more so.

Just say "one of the", not "THE most" next time.

>>1803828
Is your skull made of concrete? You literally just restated what I'm saying is retarded
>more that there has been particular times where the best example of a particular genre has been a Nintendo product because it raised the standard to the "good enough" level.
This is bullshit. Nintendo has well made games, but they didn't sell well just because their games were just so much better than what had been available. That's stupid. I just can't put it any other way.

>>1804091
I will continue saying "THE most" until you prove me wrong. So go ahead. I even left out the part where all fps games for most of the 90s were all labeled "doom clones" and took direct inspiration from said game.

>>1804097

Okay.

Tetris.

>>1804097
Doom would have never been so succesfull and important if Nintendo, and Super Mario Bros 1, hadn't given a 2nd birth to video games.

Doom would probably not even exist without Super Mario Bros.

The Doom fanboyism on this board is becoming a plague. Keep your circlejerking into your general thread. I guess it doesn't help that mods are on your sides and b& people who say truths that Doom fanboys don't like to hear.

>>1804117
Feel free to explain

>>1804119
Tough that probably is not the mod's fault. Probably the hundred of Doom-whiners reported the post, to the point that the mod genuinely took it as trolling...

>>1790827
>What is commander keen

>>1804123
Tetris is the best selling video game of all time. It has universal appeal, and virtually everyone has played it at some point. It's been ported to almost every platform in existence, spawned countless clones, and continues to be immensely popular.

More importantly, it established the puzzle genre. Puzzle games are the most popular video games in the world—they're what people are playing on their phones all day. For example, the most popular game on Facebook is Candy Crush Saga. 46 million people play it each month, and it's a tile-matching game based on, you guessed it, Tetris.

To the gaming world, sure, Doom is pretty influential, but to the rest of the world, Tetris utterly dominates it.

>>1797048
wasn't that like the first game he worked on though? there's no way he still has 0 knowledge of the subject. I think it's pretty much impossible to be in game development for decades and know absolutely nothing about programming. just by being in the proximity of programmers talking about shit you'll at least learn a term or two.

>>1803356
This. Prime was a fucking awful Halo-clone that killed the Metroid series.

Miyamoto. He saved the industry.

Miyamoto is a hack liar who is only appreciated because of marketing.

>>1804776
And this is why Alexey Pajitnov, Allan Alcorn and Tomohiro Nishikado are all more important than Miyamoto or Carmack. I get that you all might be "MUH DOOMZ" or "MUH SMBZZZZ" but Tetris's relevance tops them easily. Miyamoto and Carmack made great, relevant games and innovative contributions for the markets Pong, Tetris and Space Invaders helped create.

>>1804851
>"It's in first person, so it must be a halo clone! Not muh Metroid"

Be honest; did you actually play Prime?

>>1803347
>I'm pretty sure Carmack, or the entire design of Doom, had something to do to get in Miyamoto's head the obsession of having first-person games (he has wanted a first-person Zelda since the SNES days)
I thought he wanted a first person zelda after seeing goldeneye

>>1800536
Mainly the different levels and cutscenes that Donkey Kong had, remember most arcade games until this point used the same level over and over again like pac-man and they didn't actually have the liberty of using different hardware specifically suited to his ideas since they were converting another arcade game into Donkey Kong.

>>1804843
Sure, he's worked closely with tech institutes and I'm sure now recognizes the limits of hardware, but in the end he's still an artist and a concept designer aided by masterful programmers

Miyamoto had very good artistic skill.

Carmack had very good technical skill.

Combine them both and you have the perfect gaming brain.

>>1790797
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7YltuwFed4

In case it's not obvious, Pesci=Miyamoto.

After reading this thread, I concluded they are both overhyped hacks.
Fuck them.

>>1804776
>It's been ported to almost every platform in existence, spawned countless clones, and continues to be immensely popular.

So Doom?

People play puzzle game so much because they're equal to time wasting today, especially like the one you mentioned.

>>1797048
Did it ever occur to you that he was new to this at the time? He has clearly developed this skill over time.

>Minamoto has a tendency of trashing developers who fuck up or aren't good enough

This is a gross exaggeration, just because your boss is firm doesn't make him some mad scientist asshole, stop spreading this malaria tier rumor.

>>1804776
>More importantly, it established the puzzle genre.
I'm not so sure about that. The game was made in 1984 on a Russian computer no would touch. It wasn't until 1986 that it had a DOS version released.

There were puzzle games already established like Lode Runner, Boulder Dash and Sokoban and other puzzle games like Pipes, Binary Land, Pengo, sliding block puzzles, maze games, Impossible Mission, othello. There's a bunch more and a lot of them before Tetris was even a thing. There were a lot of various types of Puzzle games and after Tetris? There were still a lot of different types of puzzle games.

>>1804948
It definitely sounds like he did. You on the other hand.

>>1805909
>So Doom?
Think Doom then multiply it by 20.
Then you'll have Tetris.

>>1806194
So you haven't played Prime. You should probably do that before you get into a conversation about it.

>>1805909

>Tetris is time-wasting
>but Doom isn't

>>1806224
He's not wrong. Tetris is a solid game, but it's also one of the best selling games. That's because it's ported to simple things and it's premise is simple, ordinary non gamers play it. They stick it on everything. Most people don't play Tetris to play Tetris, they play Tetris because there's nothing better to do. Wozniak plays Tetris to play Tetris I think. He's got a hard on for the game.Tetris pros play it to play it. A lot of other people play it because they have it and it's simple enough to pick up and put down.

>>1806256
Lol Doom is still the same waste of time that Tetris is you autist.

Carmac is going to reinvent gaming with Oculus, just wait.
Miyomoto is on his way out while Carmac is just getting started.
Miyamoto helped to popularize games and is more important to /vr/, but Carmac has reshaped and revolutionized games several times over, while Miyomoto and Nintendo has been doing essentially the same thing since they started.

>>1806256
>tetris pros play it to play
Nah.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLHLc-6pTbI

>>1806609
That video is shit.
Meant to post something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2janIYSAJ9Y

>>1806606
>Carmac is going to reinvent gaming with Oculus, just wai
is that how history is already remembering it? lol
Carmack JUMPED ABOARD A SHIP THAT WAS ALREADY SAILING.

Oculus started without him and for quite a while at that. Sure he's helping and is most certainly a part of it, but to say that he alone is reinventing gaming is ludicrous! Anon you make me so angry! go die somewhere!

>>1806615
They hired him to create software and games for the Oculus. He's essentially a key player and at the forefront of its useable development. It was essentially an accessory until this year, it's going to become a staple in human/computer interaction in the future and it's being pioneered by one of the most decorated interactive software developers of all time.
Take your stupid opinions to /v/. I'm not a fan of Carmac or Oculus but I'm still aware of the direction there both headed.

>>1806621
You sure sound like a fanboy to me.
But it's cool to hear that, hope that thing is a success and facebook doesn't ruin it.

>>1806621
>t's going to become a staple in human/computer interaction in the future and it's being pioneered by one of the most decorated interactive software developers of all time.
I heard this thing a million times before in the 90s.

>>1806621

I severely doubt that's going to be the case, Nintendo themselves have shown multiple times that it's novel ideas and fun gameplay that's more important, not just the technology.

>>1806627
I have never played Doom and have no interest in VR tech. Facebook is a "producer" and I think it's safe to assume it'll be free from anything too obnoxious, considering Carmac is a longtime supporter of open source software and technology. I doubt he'd stick around if he smelled anything fishy, and I doubt he'd have left iD if he wasn't 100% confident in its future. That said, expect a lot of Facebook/Oculus interaction in the future, even if it's just experimental, things like VR chats will be a thing.

>>1806631
Before technology had any practical uses outside television, games and checking emails, right? People like you said the same shit about "car phones" when cell phones were coming about, and then again with touch screen smart phones.

>>1806639
As this anon said >>1806637
If Oculus cannot demonstrate itself as anything more than a flash gimmick then it's going to go the way of 3D televisions. At the moment all it has going for it is more immersion. But what about the downsides? Possible headaches, anti-social, etc

>>1806637
Nintendo is a video game company, Oculus is a VR company. VR has a much more broad stretch and many more applications than video games.
Video games are just where they'll start, and if the Wii and smart phones proved anything to us it's that people are starving for new ways to interact with technology and the internet.
Nintendo will keep doing their own thing forever, and that's fine, they know what makes a good game. They're not trying to innovate much.
Oculus, however, has the potential to change what we call games.
Whether or not it's a thing I like or agree with is up in the air.

>>1806646
This is literally all fluff, like futurist-tier PR hype. Oculus Rift is literally nothing more than a collection of screen projections you strap to your head.

Miyamoto is an overrated nip that has only created like 3 original IPs and has done nothing but rehash them and sucked dry on any creativity of his former self.

>>1806643
3D televisions have not caught on because they're expensive and the 3D is limited by media and looks unrealistic. It will pop up again, and it will eventually catch.
It's the same way with VR, but again, much more potential. Facebook is pouring money into this thing to make sure it's practical and usable, and headaches are something you adjust to.
Again, headaches and eye pains are caused by smartphones and PC monitors too, but that had not stopped anyone.
And computers have been around for decades before they started becoming integrated into our homes the way they are now.
Just because you don't see it happening doesn't mean it's not.

>>1806656
Eh, I'm done arguing. I don't care enough about the Rift to explain or defend it.
I kind of wish it would just go away.

>>1806652
He did a whole bunch of original games at the beginning of the nes.
Can't bother listing them.

>>1806660
And how many of those are staples of Nintendo's current catalog?

>>1806658
This was supposed to go to
>1806650

>>1806656
The longer it takes for VR to take over, the less important Oculus (and Carmack) will be. Anybody can enter the field.

Sometimes it's those who enter late that start the real revolution.

>>1806662
Fuck. I give up.
Bye thread.

>>1806661
how is that relevant? quite a couple actually

>>1806685
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shigeru_Miyamoto_gameography

>>1790823
He invented a human being?

Carmack made the engine, Romero did most of the design. Wolfenstein and DOOM wouldn't have been made without him but Looking Glass were doing fully 3D first person simulations with Ultima Underworld so the FPS genre would show up sooner or later.

Without Miyamoto Nintendo might have lost enough money to step out of games for good, and they certainly wouldn't have made the Famicom. Consoles would be dead like Atari unless Sega stepped in, but a lot of their marketing tactics with the Genesis had to do with countering Nintendo so who knows if they would have done well. Even if Miyamoto and Nintendo didn't invent some things they were responsible for shaping it as we know it today and bringing it to the mass market. Without Mario there might only have been a few games in the platforming genre. It would have taken years for people to get 3D cameras and lock-on targeting done right, motion controls might not be widely utilized, etc etc.

>Carmack invented engines
>Carmack invented internet multiplayer

The fuck? People have been playing online since Telenet MUDs on University campuses in the 1970s. And you can't have a game without an engine, at best Carmack made modality popular, not that you already couldn't do that with nearly even C64 and Apple II game.

>>1806694
I think by multiplayer they're referring to client side prediction.
But yeah,someone else probably would've figured it out in a year or two if it wasn't for him.

>>1806704
Wait, Duke3D came up with that first.

>>1806708

Duke3D came out three years after DOOM.

>>1806712
No shit, doom didnt have prediction.

>>1793121
DVD's are just like VHS, they will never be anything more than a gimmick

>>1806768
Zip drives are just like floppy discs, they will never be anything more than a gimmick

>>1806204
>>1804948
I played Prime and it was shit. The game is so poorly designed and the controls are so bad the game lets you win as all enemies miss all attacks on purpose. On top of that each enemy took forever to kill and respawned every time you reentered a room

>>1807374
If that was you up there, no one is going to believe you played the game based on calling it a Halo clone.

Just hang it up.

>>1806194
Literally the only things that Prime has in common with Halo are the fact that they're played in a first person perspective and have sci-fi settings.

I realize that Prime isn't for everyone, and it's perfectly okay for you to not enjoy it, but calling Prime a "Halo Clone" is completely and utterly wrong.

>>1804117
God damn, right in the childhood.

>>1804851
>>1804948
>>1806194
>>1806204
>>1807374
>>1807394
>>1807553
>>>/v/

>>1790989
Someone could've just as easily created something akin to Mario or anything else for that matter. "Could've" isn't the question here. Carmack is relatively obsessed with creating virtual worlds, which is why he worked his ass off on Doom, and recently shifted to the oculus rift. Someone else may have made a functional FPS, but it probably wouldn't have been as thought out or functional as Doom.

Even Ken Silverman, genius that he is, didn't have the same passion, and thus dropped out of the industry almost as soon as he got into it. I would say Carmack is as influential or more so than Miyamoto, though perhaps more "behind-the-scenes". I doubt as many people got reprimanded for playing Mario at work, in any case.

>>1791132
>I have nothing of value to add
Cool.

This is a dumb thread, and y'all gay.

>who would win in a fist fight, apples or oranges?
>shut up apples are clearly ur faggit
>no, u
This is a dumb thread and you're all gay.

>>1807908
>This is a dumb thread and you're all gay.
Come be gay with me under the bed. I will be the gentle top, and you will be an aggressive bottom.

I never really understood the depth of Carmack fanboy delusions until this thread.

>>1807941
I ain't even mad bro, but really what's the point of arguing about "influence" unless you had a time machine and could predict alternaste realities or some shit.
Miyamoto worked as a supervisor on most nintendo titles up to the WiiU, how can a bunch of internet commenters even tell how "influential" he was to the games? No one besides the dev teams will ever know.

Same for carmack, no one will ever know how early 3D and multiplayer games would've turned out without him.

>>1807908
Sounds like somebody's just jealous that their oranges are getting BTFO by superior apples