/vr/ - Retro Games

Uemara-san didn't want it to sound like shit

>>1761428

a) It sounds better.
b) Sony and Nintendo were bros until the SNES CD thing.

>>1761428
Apparently Ken Kutaragi wasn't satisfied with the sound quality of NES when he bought one for his daughters. Then he got in touch with Nintendo and designed a sound chip in secret that made Sony people mad when they found out about it but he somehow got the okay from them.

So yeah, the father of Playstation was the cause of the great sound chip that was used in SNES. The man put his position in Sony at stake for it.

>>1761449
>>1761456
>sounds almost exactly the same, except without that shitty reverb effect
>sounds worse/bad
Really?

>>1761428
>except it's missing hardware support for ADSR envelop control, echo, and filtering.

You just answered your own question

>>1761449
But it does. SNES sounds like someone farting in a hallway with the mic 20 feet away.

>>1761547
But those aren't as important as having a better CPU. Arguably some of those things make the sound worse

>>1761428
>Here's an example of what the Ricoh RF5C164 can do. This particular track is not CD audio

It's a bit disingenuous saying that's what the RF5C164 can do, that's the RF5C164 plus the Genesis' YM2612 for FM synthesis.

It's using the samples where they're good, for the vocals, drums and scratchy sound effects. It sounds like the piano is sampled too (the tuning feels a bit off).
The bass, sax lead and formanty sounding blipboops are definitely FM. Organ and strings could go either way.

It wouldn't have had as fat a sound as the genesis whether it used the Sony or the Ricoh because neither can do FM

>>1761428
>instead of a cheaper alternative like the Ricoh RF5C164 which was used on the Sega CD, FM Towns and many arcade games?

The Ricoh chip did not support compression, but was paired with the same amount of 64k memory, so it would've sound worse.

The Sega CD makes it sound more capable than it is because it had boatloads of extra ram AND an extra CPU both which were sitting completely idle when they weren't loading data from the disc. They had it stream samples into the Ricoh chip on-demand from the Sega CD main memory.

>>1761624
>Arguably some of those things make the sound worse

It depends entirely on the skill of the composer.

Jurassic Park's music wouldn't have been anywhere near as pronounced without those effects.

Oh boy. An ant-SPC700 thread.

>>1761653
>It's using the samples where they're good, for the vocals, drums and scratchy sound effects. It sounds like the piano is sampled too (the tuning feels a bit off).The bass, sax lead and formanty sounding blipboops are definitely FM. Organ and strings could go either way.

No, all of those are from the Ricoh chip. I think even most of the sound effects are played by the Ricoh chip in Sonic CD, that's why the jump sound is different in that game.

You can even open up the sample banks from the CD if you have an editor that can load raw samples. They are all there.

And again, the Ricoh chip was doing that with on-demand sample streaming, which the extra 68k was doing as it was used for fuck-all else in the entire game, outside of the special stages and the D.A. Garden (but they might even used the normal 68k even for that).

>>1761449
>uemura designed the NES and SNES, Nintendo's best selling and most influential consoles
>uemura didn't design anything else past that
>the N64 lost the market to Sony
>the GameCube was buried alive
>the Wii was a toy that people played with for a week before throwing it out
>the Wii U...

Someone get Uemara to design Nintendo's next console, only he can do a good job at it, it seems.

>>1761653
No, Sonic CD to my knowledge doesn't use the YM2612 at all. I think if you use the volume slider on a Model 1 to turn FM sound off completely it will make no difference at all to the audio output of Sonic CD.

>>1761717
>the Wii was a toy that people played with for a week before throwing it out
Implying this actually happened and is not just anecdotal stories made up by buttmad 360 and PS3 owners. The total Wii software sales tell a completely different story

>>1761824
The Wii is more or less a toy compared to the PS3 and 360, especially given the software library and the specs. That said, the PS3 and 360 are toys compared to a PC. Point is, despite being popular, the Wii was never seen as a 'serious' gaming console, nowhere near as serious as the NES or SNES were, let alone the PlayStation consoles.

>>1761824
>Implying this actually happened and is not just anecdotal stories made up by buttmad 360 and PS3 owners.
http://www.computerandvideogames.com/292988/wii-consoles-gathering-dust-survey-says/
>The total Wii software sales tell a completely different story
Yeah all those fitness and waggling games, completely not a toy guys

honestly guys does anyone really give a shit??

mfw i was a kid playing both snes and genesis, enjoyed the fuck out of both systems. I didnt notice or give a shit about the sound, aside from a couple tracks that really stood out from both systems, examples being streets of rage on genesis, and star fox on snes. moral of story, kids dont care about sound chips or hardware for that matter atleast not in the 90s

>>1762008

So you're saying they should have gone with the RF5C164 and beefed up the CPU.

>>1762008
Is that you biggie? I thought you were dead!

And if you don't know, now you know.

How exactly would they have "beefed up" the CPU, considering that it's already a custom ASIC that exceeds the original specs of the 6502 it's based on?

If this is a "I wish they did that" thread, then

"I wish the Mega Drive used 8 or 16 paletts"

It would have been beautiful...

>>1762019

Who cares?

>>1762008
>I didnt notice or give a shit about the sound
You're either deaf or lying. The audio was fucking mind blowing on 16bit consoles, especially on the SNES.

>>1762107
>How exactly would they have "beefed up" the CPU, considering that it's already a custom ASIC that exceeds the original specs of the 6502 it's based on?
How about a Motorola 68000 like they originally planned? That was pretty much the best option at the time. Sega made the right choice using it. Hell, it's powerful enough to do sprite rotating/scaling in software. Just look at the Adventures of Batman and Robin.

>>1761428
Nintendo did have a faster CPU (at 10.5MHz, Sony was making the CD add on with the faster CPU before relooking up their contract when redoing it with the slower CPU), a better PPU (more sprites, sprite scaling, more background layers, a full 16-Bit pallet & HiMuse/Hi-Vision at 1080i (960x540p) as to why the SNES' encoder chip uses YCrCb rather then RGB), 2 extra sound chips (one built into the main CPU which was a updated version of the 2A03 chip with FDS & MMC5 support & a YM2151 chip), built in DSP & SuperFX support (the chip was mainly made because of the SNES' slow CPU, the system can do polygons just fine like in Zelda:ALTTP, when the DSP stuff was cut for cost reasons), more ram (4 times) & backwards compatibility with the NES (hence the 1.79MHz CPU mode, even the sound is around 75% complete and can run non-DPCM NSFs just fine http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHPgbuM3Yo8 ) for the SNES, Nintendo just had to cut $75 dollars worth of hardware to sell it at $200 with a profit and with Super Mario World rather then at $300 and getting affected by the bubble bust of 1989.

>>1762153
>If this is a "I wish they did that" thread, then
I wish the nes was as powerful as a ps4
think of how much more advanced everything today would be

>>1761824
Who gives a shit about sales? I bought a Wii too, and it's collecting dust at the moment. Worst purchase I have ever made.

>>1761624
you're assuming the reason the cpu was 3mhz was because the sound chip was expensive

or do you have a source to make this anything less than an assumption

>>1763880
>Who gives a shit about sales? I bought a Wii too, and it's collecting dust at the moment. Worst purchase I have ever made.
This post is the definition of an anecdote.

>>1763891
I don't see your proof of the contrary. See >>1761994.

>>1763890

Everything as about cost. Why didn't the SNES have Neo Geo tier specifications? Cause they had to make it cheaper. It's well known that the CPU was the weakest part of the SNES and the sound system was the most advanced. You can gather that information just by playing a few SNES games.

>>1763894
>http://www.computerandvideogames.com/292988/wii-consoles-gathering-dust-survey-says/
You're asking me to take an internet survey with a sample of 1000 seriously? Are you actually retarded or just pretending?

>>1763904
It's more believable than your pathetic "made up by buttmad 360/PS3 owners" argument. Go back to /v/.

>>1763910
>It's more believable than your pathetic "made up by buttmad 360/PS3 owners" argument
But that is your argument. Unlike you I've got hard data to back it up.
http://www.nintendo.co.jp/ir/en/sales/hard_soft/index.html
101.06 mil hardware
895.22 mil software
Attach rate: 8.85

Yes. People who give up on a console after a week buy 9 games for it.

>>1763895
they didn't use a slower cpu just to save a few bucks; anecdotal evidence indicates that Nintendo expected the console to be RPG-heavy and thus a fast processor wasn't needed.

what they did want/need was things like rotation & scaling effects, and that's why you have mode 7

if they were worried about cost, why throw in a expensive custom sound chip and TWO ppus with extra ram for hardware effects?

cost wasn't an issue here, and it likely had little if any effect on the cpu's clock speed.

>>1763930

I think the point is, was it a good trade off to get slightly better sound than a faster CPU? Somehow I don't think so. Sure echo is cool, but the slow CPU was responsible for a lot of sluggishness in shoot em ups for example.

>>1763925
9 games is not a lot of games, either. If there was data regarding the software sales and console sales of the other platforms, then we probably would see that the PS3 or 360 owners bought more games. Not to mention that the Wii hasn't garnered !significant! third party support in the form of GTA or MGS. Rockstar and Konami did put some games on it, though, much more than they did for the GameCube and Wii U.

Not the guy you're talking to btw.

>>1764097
>If there was data regarding the software sales and console sales of the other platforms, then we probably would see that the PS3 or 360 owners bought more games
They did. One more game on average.

One
> Not to mention that the Wii hasn't garnered !significant! third party support in the form of GTA or MGS
What does this have to do with the argument

>>1764106
Those games are very popular games, they are also games that have a tendency of being on every platform but Nintendo consoles. Never underestimate how popular these franchises are, never underestimate third party support.

>>1761568

>>1764118
>Those games are very popular games, they are also games that have a tendency of being on every platform but Nintendo consoles. Never underestimate how popular these franchises are, never underestimate third party support.
How this relates to anything is a goddamn mystery

>>1763837
>Nintendo did have a faster CPU (at 10.5MHz, Sony was making the CD add on with the faster CPU before relooking up their contract when redoing it with the slower CPU), a better PPU (more sprites, sprite scaling, more background layers, a full 16-Bit pallet & HiMuse/Hi-Vision at 1080i (960x540p)
Yeah fucking right.

>>1763925
>Number of people who bought it to use it for waggling and then leave it in the closet to collect dust
>Number of shovelware released for said waggle system that got bought by said people

There are 1,300 games on the Nintendo Wii. You tell me with a straight face even 50 of those games are worth playing. If people actually cared to play games on the system the quality output of the library would be much higher. The fact that it sold millions or that software also moved units means fuckall when you have such abysmal game quality and don't even shit me that people didn't leave the Wii gathering dust in the closet,

http://www.wired.com/2011/07/wiijected/?pid=1846#slideid-1846

>>1764240
>There are 1,300 games on the Nintendo Wii. You tell me with a straight face even 50 of those games are worth playing
Breaking news, the most popular console in a generation has a lot of shovelware, news at 11. This doesn't mean shit. The attach rate is about 9 games. There are at least 9 good games on the system. That's enough. It's not Nintendo's fault that so many third party developers sabotaged the console out of their own stupidity and self-fulfilling prophecies. Pic very related.
>http://www.wired.com/2011/07/wiijected/?pid=1846#slideid-1846
Cool more anecdotes.

>>1763975
I would love to know what the cost difference between the 65816 in the SNES and the 68k in the genesis was. From what I heard back in the day the 65816 was an overpriced hunk of shit that people used for 6502 compatibility and familiarity. The 68k was nicer to code for but maybe Nintendo spent too much effort on keeping the SNES a literal SUPER nes instead of making a proper new console.

>>1764232
It's not that far fetched. Dev hardware is always super high spec'd, partly wishful thinking about what will be cost effective by the time they are ready for production. HD output... well yeah, in the same way the SNES did 512x448. It was a special hack that came with massive drawbacks. Plus going above SD would have been more speculation since there was no HD spec to output to. Probably just some Sony R&D stuff. When there WAS an HD spec, sony had already made the PS2 with support for it. Funnily enough it worked the same way the SNES did by swapping offsets each frame so that REALLY all the hardware was doing was 540p but the TV was displaying it as 1080i and fundamentally it was the same result.

>>1764240
>You tell me with a straight face even 50 of those games are worth playing.
Over 50 of those games are worth playing.
http://puu.sh/a9vut.txt

>>1761428
call me when someone replicates Megaman X's soundtrack with the Genesis sound hardware.

Oh wait it's not possible, it would sound like complete shit.

>>1764583
What are you talking about? What does the Genesis sound hardware have to do with this thread?

>>1764586
OP is clearly a buttdemolished delusional Sega fanboy who can't deal with the fact most of his music sounded like shit. Probably one of those people from Yurop who played nothing but Columns.

inb4 people post Streets of Rage 2, Verytex, Dynamite Headdy, Sonic Spinball, Madden 93, or any other Genesis game with great music. Those were FAR from the norm and were definitely the exception, most Genesis games had very tinny and grindy music.

>>1764602
Gee you've got some kind of serious autism to go on this crazy console wars tract cause the Genesis sure as hell didn't use the Ricoh RF5C164. That was the Sega CD. Why don't you go dump on the Yamaha YM2612 (what the Genesis actually used) in a different thread?

linking more Sonic CD music which used only the RF5C164

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kSuuAWTPB_A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=envzv8QY4qc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0gwpKMTCxxk

sounds breddy good

>>1764583

There were actually some awesome videos of Mega Man X music remade within the specs of the Genesis's YM2612 chip on YouTube by the user "geckoyamori". To my memory, he did X1's intro stage, X3's intro stage, Gravity Beetle's stage, and Toxic Seahorse's stage.

They all sounded fantastic, but for some reason he set all his videos to private some months back and the songs aren't available anywhere else on the internet, so you probably won't believe me.

There is so much autism in this thread right now.

http://ylilauta.org/int/28841141

>>1764841
can you not advertise your shitty forum on here thanks

>>1764583
Search YouTube.

>>1764276

Enough to help with profits, I bet. Why else would they have removed the RF modulator, and removed the circuit for the S-video support on the Mini if not to shave money for more profit?