/vr/ - Retro Games

People obviously did that in the past.

It's a chore though, so why bother

>>1692512
I tried to but couldn't finish this game. I would love to beat it one day. I didn't use any guide for awhile. I only stopped because I needed a guide. I didn't want to "cheat" basically so I stopped playing.

People tend to forget that the game came with a map and a manual which was very useful in telling you or giving hints on what to do.

I don't know for certain if the original famicom disk system version of the game had the map, but I know the cartridge re-release had

I beat it without a guide (except for one part) in a week. Most of the challenge is actually from fighting enemies instead of navigating. The overworld is a little overwhelming your first play through but if you take the time to explore it bit by bit you learn its lay out and get a big wallet of ruppees to spend.

The only time I had to use a guide was to find gannon's dungeon which is more the fault of the translators giving you a usless clue about where its located.

Theres several optional secrets (like the secret heart at the lowest part of the overworld and the 100 ruppee gift) that you will probably never find without a guide but those are not required to clear the game.

>>1692591
Pretty much every Famicom RPG ever came with a map, so it probably did.

On the topic of beating games without walkthroughs or guides. Morrowind. I tried to beat this game with cheats and a guide. My patience ran thin.

>>1692930

I honestly can't think of what you'd need cheats or a guide for in Morrowind. It's not /vr/ material anyway.

Yeah dude, just take your time and explore.

Also reading the manual gives you some important hints in case you really read caerfully. There was a time when manuals were actually kind of essential to understand a game or its plot.

Also keep in mind: if you hear that twinkling sound when you enter a screen there is a secret hidden. Buy some bomb and try to discover the hidden caves, there may be some goodies which will make early gaming much more easier.

>>1692512
yeah, back in the 80's with no internet to distract you. Nowadays, probably not

>>1692512
Most early games were about dicking around and blowing shit up until you figured it all out. That's why they were adventure games and not Linear games.

>>1692939

Have fun looking through pages and pages of your journal to only come across odd clues of what your objectives are. I felt this game was even difficult WITH the official guide.

>inb4 filthycasual.jpg

Yes, it is. You will need two things which many gamers these days (and I won't even exclude myself) sadly seem to lack these days: frustration tolerance and patience.

>>1692591
Yep. And some games you NEEDED that map to beat it, like Metal Gear.

> TFW playing Metal Gear again on an emulator at school in 2000 during typing class and can't find the map on the internet, thus dooming you to never finding keycard 7.

>>1693102
Welcome to actual WRPG's,and Morrowind is a child's play compared to Baldur's gate in terms of what to do

>>1693628

Interesting.
It has been a couple years, you have inspired me to try again without even using the guide.

Suggestion of Race and Birthsign?

>>1692940
>if you hear that twinkling sound when you enter a screen there is a secret hidden.
Except the first LoZ has nothing of the sort.

>>1693628
Whaaaaaaaaaat?
Baldur's Gate has a person run up to you and say "GO HERE!" and your journal says "I heard a rumor about trouble in X. I should go there some day." And then your teammates say "What are we doing here? We should be getting to X!"

Morrowind goes "Welcome to hasdofhqwepoifdhasl home of the sjdfldis. Speak to DKFjd in DKFHEEE about the dhfd" Then they give you a letter. And you're absolutely lost because there is no direction, everything has foreign names that sound and look the same, the letter just says "Hope you liked the stew I made!" and if you can't decode your shitty journal entry that says simply "meet asdkfh", you're fucked.

>>1693679
It wouldn't matter anyway: every screen has something important about it.

>>1693680
all core rpg is shit

>>1693683
Plenty of screens don't have anything about them. Half the graveyard has nothing, bottom right corner has nothing, and a bunch of others.

I beat the game a month ago for the first time, I used the map manual and the only time I got stuck was grumble grumble, I did discover the man who made me pay him for breaking his door.

a week before I tried to beat it without the map and it was very difficult because I found dungeon 3 or 4 before dungeon 1.

Beat both quests as a kid with no outside help. Not hard at all as long as you have the free time and desire to run around trying to light every bush on fire and bomb every wall.

>>1693730
kek

>>1693730
GL with finding Level-7 on the second quest without either extreme luck or a guide.

Even if you just got a hint about the general area in which to find it (which you don't), pic related still has nearly 300 bushes you have to burn, with the BLUE candle I might add.

>>1693760
I don't think you understand how it was as a kid back in those days. Most of us were lucky to get 3 or 4 games a year. When you had to make the most out of so little, burning and bombing the entire map like some kind of Hyrulian terrorist seemed like awesome content.

any way to turn off the god damn beeping when you are near death?

>>1693798

Puncture your eardrums with a screwdriver and you'll never hear it again.

>>1693674
Do whatever bruh.

I like Argonian for water breathing, or Dark Elf to pretend that I'm a real reincarnation. Plus N'wahs everywhere.

Just dont get sneak as a skill.. that shit sucks.

>>1693760
>lone bush blocking your way
>not setting it on fire
duh

I remember we all used to talk about it at school, so in some ways your friends were your guide, and everyone was working on it together.

>>1694056
Pretty sure that bush don't burn on the second quest.

>>1694056
>tries to sound smart
>points to the wrong bush
Congratulations?

>>1693760
Friend and I did a blind 2nd Quest run recently. Only reason I won was because I found lvl 7.

I asked myself what would be the most obscure place to burn, and it was that area in the bottom right of your picture where you have to be standing on the right side of the bushes to light it.

So chalk that under 'extreme luck'.

>>1692512
Of course it is. It's (theoretically) possible to beat any game without a walkthrough, if that game could ever be beaten. You just need enough luck and time.
What a shitty question.

How can anyone find the exit of Lost Woods without a fucking guide? The game never tells you the limit that the actual combination goes, there's like over a milion combinations possible

>>1693760
wow what a tryhard
i found that dungeon early on in the game

It's impossible to beat this game even WITH a guide. No one ever beat it. It was just an illusion Ganon created. That's why he keeps coming back almost every game.

Yes. I know this because I did it at 18 on my Game Cube having never played it prior.

>>1692517
I thought it was pretty fun, not a chore at all. It was nice to have to discover things.

>>1694202
"Pay me and I'll talk," lady tells you.

I had to look that up because I didn't remember exactly who told me, but I definitely was told in game how to do it.

>>1694202
>"GO NORTH, WEST, SOUTH, WEST TO THE FOREST OF MAZE".

That's pretty clear.

>>1694251
>>1694252
Yeah nevermind that, I looked it up after I posted. I'm retarded.

>>1692512
I'm playing through it without a walkthrough now. First quest was easy as cake. Second quest is a bitch though, mostly because I can't find the damn shop that sells the blue ring.

>>1692512
>Is it possible to beat this game without any walkthrough?
Er, of course it is.

>>1693760
seriously fuck Level-7 on the second quest. Still mad to this day I never found it. I even beat Level-8 before it. I had a hunch it was in the bush area in lower right... I swear I burnt every bush in that area...

>>1693680

Why is this post so damn funny?

>>1692512
It must be. I tried my hardest and I couldn't. I think that's BS on the early LoZ games - you can't beat them without aid, extreme patience, or sheer luck.
Maybe if I had it when I was 10, but certainly not now.

Yeah, it isn't that hard. I could never beat the second quest, though. IIRC, I needed to find the guy who sells the meat, but I could never find him.

>>1693760
My first guess would have been >>1694056

Under the armos seems too obvious plus you did say you needed to burn a bush.

My second guess is the bottom left since that's a completely different section that you need to enter from the left, plus one row has two bushes and all the others have one. So my guess is you need to burn the row that has two bushes but from the left.

My third guess is in the second screen from the top in one of the irregular trees (but not the one in the centre of the hexagon since that's too obvious).

My fourth guess is either the top-left or bottom-left bush in the top screen since that column has three bushes and its opposite on the right screen only has two.

Any of those right?

>>1694237
Zelda had tons of game stopping "puzzles" with a nonsense solution. There are some blocks that must be pushed in a certain direction in just the right spot. You can imagine my frustration when I discover the solution was a block i had tried to push twice already and backtracked the whole dungeon. Zelda was a chore

>>1692512
>Is it possible to beat this game without any walkthrough?
What kind of stupid question is that? Of course it is. All games are beatable without a walkthrough. How do you think people write walkthroughs in the first place?

>>1695835
Some walkthroughs are provided by the developers.

Did anyone ever beat Gabriel Knight 3 without a walkthrough?

http://www.gabrielknight4campaign.com/cat_hair.php#spoil1

pwnd

>>1695839
Just because people use that as an example of a silly puzzle doesn't mean it's super hard to figure out. There's always someone that gets it even if it's weird and dumb.

>>1692576
Are you me? Same story here.

>>1695835
Stop pretending to be retarded, he's asking is it reasonably possible to beat, not as some nerd who plays it for months and tries every single possibility

>>1696178
That was how you were supposed to play it, nimrod.

>>1692512
did it
took me 16 hours
found the master sword by total accident because why not

>>1693760
I'm pretty sure that's Level 7 in the FIRST quest, if you're talking about the one bush at the dead end near the middle at the very bottom screen. Second quest has extra retarded locations, like "use the ladder to cross this specific tile of the river at the base of Death Mountain and set a bomb at the wall there."

>>1696402
No, the lone bush is level 8 in the first quest. Level 7 in the second quest is in some random bush in the bottom right area.

>>1696178
Sup /v/.

>>1695806
what?

i played this game when i was 10 on my dads nes and beat it.

>>1694214
>I won a million dollars on my first lottery ticket
>Lottery is easy, you guys just suck

I just used a map.

It was better to know where to go than to have an actual walkthrough.

When I played it for the first time I only got as far as the first dungeon before I was lost and didn't know where to go.

I eventually finished it three years ago, took a while but I did it.

>>1696574
When I was a kid i stole graph paper from math class and made my own maps

>>1693674
Just make sure that you have Athletics and your main weapon(s) in the major skills category.

It is possible as long as you have a lot of patience. I wouldn't recommend it though.

>>1692512
Compare to something like Legacy of the Wizard, in the grand scheme of things, Zelda is more easy

>>1692592
I wouldn't say heart containers are optional, they make a difference on you getting the white sword and even the magic sword as early as possible

>>1693723
>I did discover the man who made me pay him for breaking his door

There are several

>>1693798
Stop being a casual and you won't heart it often

>>1694202
I actually was stuck in the 2nd quest for the longest time as a kid, because I assumed you needed to find the ladder to get to the power bracelet, which you need for Level 4. Then I eventually figured my way out Lost Woods. I believe the old lady with hints tell you the way

>>1694372
Remember one of the spots where you can get $100 rupees in the first quest? You can find the store over there

>>1696272
>Legend of Zelda (NES)
>Master Sword

>>1698463
He's probably talking about the White sword.
It looks like the master sword.

Hey what happens if you find the magic sword then the white sword? Do you downgrade? That'd suck

>>1699183
I should try that next time I play the game

>>1699183
>>1699189
I just went and tried.
You keep the magic sword.

>>1698463
>.hack//SIGN
Shame that the .hack PS2 games don't count as retro.

>>1692512
Basically, you hit up every wall with a bomb and messed with every tree and boulder. Took a long time, but when you were five it didn't matter because there wasn't anything else to do.

>Basically, you hit up every wall with a bomb and messed with every tree and boulder. Took a long time, but when you were five it didn't matter because there wasn't anything else to do.

Pretty much that. I was about 12 or 13 though but still, there wasn't anything else to do. There was no internet, 3 crappy channel of OTA broadcast tv, the only games I had were LoZ and Ice Climber.

Kids nowadays don't realize how scarcity of things to do combined with boredom makes you do strange things. Like wander through the entire map blowing up every segment of wall, etc.

>>1696574
The funnest way to play LoZ in my opinion is with a map. Just know where all the overworld secrets and dungeons are and map the move efficient path through the world and play it like that. I started playing like this once I couldn't find the fourth dungeon, and this was a few years ago. I didn't feel like spending my time exploring the entire game.

>>1692591
whenever I play a retro game for the first time I download all of the maps and manuals that wouldve come in the box and try to beat it without any help
If I get stuck I'll try again the next day
If I truly don't know what the fuck to do I'll look it up

I recently played metroid 1 for the first time
I was making maps and shit, as the manual suggests and it was pretty fun until I got stuck as fuck
I didnt realize there were false walls and at that point I said fuck it I'm not going to bomb every square inch and I looked up a map online

>>1693760
quest 2 can go fuck itself
all of the rules and patterns from quest 1 go right out the window

>>1693798
Mute

I just got the game today through the virtual console. First Dungeon I found was easy (Not sure if it was really was the first since I heard there's not really a dungeon order. It had a unicorn dragon as a boss), but now I'm in the over world again and getting raped like there's no tomorrow. If it game really did come with a map, then yes, I guess I'm goona look up one of those.

>>1702563
use the one posted in the thread
>>1692591
and download the original manual
you wont be 'cheating' and it will make things much easier

>>1696574
Yea, how dare an adventure game put the player in an open world environment where he's free to explore? Gotta block the next area with the next gadget gimmick and tell them where to go 6 times in highlighted letters so that players don't get confused.

Are people really complaining about an adventure game that let's the player explore the world on his own?

>>1692512
Yes.

Next question.

>>1702576
How many dicks can you fit into your mouth at the same time?

>>1692591
>Zola

>>1702579

Hold on, let me check.

>>1702597

I managed to get three in there.

I played it without a walkthrough. Beat 1 dungeon every day and took about 2 weeks to do it. Just spend a lot of time wandering around but pay attention to the map so you can memorize it. You'll find stuff eventually. You never need to use the lost woods.

>>1692512
Is it really that hard?
I got to level 1 to 7 really quick without any help at all, i just explored and shit and levels and caves found themselves (i also know already where level 8 and 9 are), i would have finished the game already but my save file got rekt somehow, i'll start over another day and beat the game this time

>>1695806
It's usually painfully obvious which block you're supposed to push.

>>1702629
This. If 4 year old me can figure out which way to push a block without even thinking about it... comeon mang

The thing with the bushes and blocks was that most of the time they did have something. These days there is rarely anything to find so the odd time where you do need to search a place you do need a guide because it is so out of place in the rest of the game.

>>1702571

The problem was that you'd explore to the best of your ability and then die from enemies half way down the line.

I'm not saying they should just give us instructions on where to go, but they could've put a white dot or something in the minimap to tell us where a dungeon was.

The entire reason I stopped playing it after the 1st dungeon was because I had no idea where to go and before I knew it I was fighting one of those statues that came out of the ground and dying from it.

I didn't want to explore since I felt I needed to be stronger to go to certain places.

We didn't have the internet, but I remember mailing away for this guide in like 1987. It cost like $7.99 plus postage or something... there was an ad in Nintendo Fun Club News I think (the pre-Nintendo Power magazine). But it took like 2 months to arrive so by that time I'd already beat the game at the age of 12. I remember me and my 2 friends that also had the game would pool our knowledge about things we found. Took about 3 months total if I remember correctly to beat it the first time.

>>1702903
Dude, the first few dungeons aren't even hidden. The game is *about* exploration and discovery. You really need your hand held this badly?

>>1702627
>Is it really that hard?
No, they're just terrible.

>>1702903
So get stronger. Grind low-level enemies to get rupees to buy potions, a good shield and bombs. Find the white sword. In the time it takes you to do this you should have gotten good. If you haven't, you'll at least have items to make you stronger.

>>1702903
Are you really so compulsively risk-averse that you won't even explore in a VIDEO GAME

>>1692512
Of course, holy crap, it isn't even THAT tough.

If you're of the modern mentality, you will have to switch that. You must understand that looking for where to go is the point. It's not a temporary hurdle to overcome, it's exactly what you are supposed to entertain yourself with: looking for where to go and how to get there.

Memorize, draw maps, learn from your mistakes, do the impossible, save the princess, and have fun.

>>1702932
>>1702960
>>1702973

I guess I just never had the patience for the game, nor Zelda 2. (Which I eventually completed last year)

I completed LTTP and had all the items and around 14 hearts without any help from a guide, and I played all of them for the first time in the same year.

Maybe I do suck.

>>1703114
ALTTP was dumbed down for people like you and it's a worse game for it.

>>1703119
All they had to do was remove the overworld map and it would have been great. But instead, it not only tells you where the dungeons are, but also what order to beat them in.

>>1703119
The games have gotten easy to the point of trivialization, but worse off? Not necessarily. I've always considered the zelda series' change as being a sort of what the natural evolution of the point and click adventure game genre SHOULD have been, a story driven game with colorful characters and a heavy focus on pacing and world interaction over combat. Bosses and enemies served more as puzzles than true opponents. It's a far cry from the original installments, but that's just the way things turned out.

Be glad that you live in a time where Kickstarter is a thing. No, really. You can actually finally vote for the games you want with your wallet, and in spite of the glut of shitty projects, there have been a number of really good games that have come out.

>>1703124
>but also what order to beat them in

Because this time there was an actual order and it would have been meaningless padding to not tell you which were the one to go first.
Besides, the entrances are fucking huge and obvious anyway so it's not like there would have been so much problem to find them.

>>1702583
>magic box

>>1703124
I don't even mind the map markers, but you have to beat five dungeons or so before the game lets you step out of order. Those whack-a-moles in the middle of the road were the worst.

>>1703125
>I've always considered the zelda series' change as being a sort of what the natural evolution of the point and click adventure game genre SHOULD have been, a story driven game with colorful characters
Is this copypasta?

>>1692512
No

How the fuck are you supposed to know about using flute at the lake?
Jesus

>>1703137
>Is this copypasta?
No, why do you ask?

>>1703139
Word of mouth. Funny how the guy extolling the virtues of obtuse game design fails to realize that developers gated their games in this way to get friends and fellow players sharing secrets and talking about the game, and they've simply realized now that we have the internet, that sort of design just comes off as being shitty because the easiest solution is alt-tabbing/getting up and googling it.

It's the very reason why procedural generation and emergent play have become such immensely popular phenomenons as of late, because there's no real walkthrough for say, The Binding of Isaac or Minecraft.

>>1703146
>Word of mouth
Or just, read what it does in the manual and get told there is a secret at the lake in-game.

>>1703125
Zelda shouldn't be point-and-click or anything even resembling it. It should be action-adventure, like the original was. The new ones are still an adventure, sure, but the action part's gone. It's just puzzle-adventure and has been definitely since Majora and possibly since Ocarina.

>>1702624
You HAVE to use the lost woods in the 2nd quest if you want to get anywhere near Level 4

>>1702563
How can you not know when the name of the level is on the top screen?

>>1702556
LEAVE YOUR LIFE OR MONEY

>>1699446
Another mystery solved. You are a good man

>>1703253
>shouldn't be

According to who? Now please don't take offense to me using the term 'people like you,' because I don't mean it in a particularly disparaging way, but if we put people like you in charge of deciding what these sorts of things ought to be, we'd just get sequel after sequel of basically the same thing.

When you're developing games, the last thing you want to do is let the fans control the direction things go in.

Consumers have proven time and time again that they don't know what they want. I'm a huge fan of Dark Souls and I'll be the first to say Dark Souls 2 was more than a bit underwhelming. Good fun, yes, I won't say no to seconds... but compare Dark Souls 2 to Miyazaki's project Beast. I guarantee you that one is going to be so much more interesting than Ds2 could have ever hoped to be, because it's keeping the spirit of the Souls tradition but still doing its own thing.

I'm not sure if you remember just how many fucking idiot fanbabies were pissing themselves over Wind Waker when it was first previewed. Just look at how much critical acclaim is has gotten after the fact.

I have a good feeling about the upcoming Zelda, the last two console entries have felt like stagnation.

>>1702931
that was the best
combining all the stuff you and your friends figured out and help each other to beat the game
being the one to find a new secret was the best feeling

>>1702931
>Fairy at the fountation
>fountation
Is that even a word?
Dictionary says no, but google says 51000 hits.

>>1699446
It's the same if you skip the wooden sword and go straight to the white sword. If you do come back for the wooden sword, you just keep the white sword.

>>1702903
> I finally played a game with a modicum of challenge in it and I couldn't emotionally handle it.

>>1692930
uh what?

never needed a guide for this one just lots of great playtime

>>1693763
i got two games a year. once i used up one of them on a game called street fight. shitiest game i ever played. me and my friends logged mininum 100 hrs

>>1703531
Critical acclaim doesn't mean much.
Let's look at some basic facts:
1. Aonuma took control of the franchise with Majora and imposed his vision on the franchise with that game and every one after it.
2. Every Zelda game before Majora was either the #1 or #2 best-selling game of that year.
3. Majora and Wind Waker couldn't crack the Top 5.
4. Twilight Princess and Phantom Hourglass couldn't crack the Top 10.
5. Every Zelda game since then hasn't been able to crack the Top 20.

It's very very obvious which Zelda most people prefer.

And "sequel after sequel of basically the same thing"? You can sum up every Aonuma Zelda (i.e. Majora on, with the exception of the Capcom games) as
>talk to NPCs until you get the sword
>do 4-5 hours of puzzles until you get the master sword
>do another 4-5 hours of puzzles until you get near the final boss
>have maybe 20 minutes of exciting combat at most, which includes the final boss
>trade the game back in

>>1704664
TP fixed all my complaints about OoT. I consider it the best in the series next to LTTP.

Windwaker was utter shit. I think TP didn't sell well because of the rep hit the series took from WW and MM, and that many of the people who bought the Wii didn't play games like Zelda.

>>1704664
That is the dumbest way you could possibly measure sales. Every console Zelda sells millions, and TP did very well. It's silly to say that Zelda is taking a hit because it isn't a top seller in world where the best sellers are on many platforms and have huge ad budgets.

>>1704693
>TP didn't sell well
What the fuck are you talking about? It sold over seven million copies.

>>1704785
Hey man if 7mil copies is acceptable to you
cod:ghosts made over 1bil before 2014

>>1704793
Are you really arguing that not selling as much as COD means bad sales?

>>1704664
>Top game ranking.
That's not taking into account the quality of other games released at other times nor the fact that the number of people playing games has grown significantly (Which caused a demographic shift). As time went on, competition became more fierce, other series started to gain noteriety, and even if Zelda held its quality constant, it would eventually be passed up for whatever other game interested gamers of that time period.

I mean, could you imagine a game like OoT made during the Xbox's life competing against something like Halo? Even if it was every bit as good as the original, fans of that age may not care since they simply want to play their console FPS and cinematic RPGs.

>>1702642
9 times out of 10 yes man but FUCK THAT ONE WITH THE HANDS IN THE ROOM

>>1704808
OoT was against some good PS1 games. N64 was well behind PS1 in sales too.

Games are supposed to get better as time goes on. The fact that Zelda is selling relatively poorly is a sign that the series is stale and not evolving with the times. It really hasn't done anything new since its transition to 3D in OoT, even if I think TP improved on it in every way, TP was released almost a decade later - far too late for an evolutionary sequel vice revolutionary sequel.

>>1704849
But it's not selling poorly. Millions of copies moved on a single platform is good, especially in a time where many AAA big sellers struggle to count as a success due to stupid budgeting.

>>1704849
You're right, the PSX had some good games. However, even further iterations of those games don't stand up today.

I mean, to put it this way, some of the best selling games of the past were point and click adventures and things like Myst. Even if you were to make the best iteration of Myst ever conceived in this world, vastly improving on it compared to all Mysts that came before it, you will never hit the number one best selling game charts because the vast majority of people buying video games don't care to play it to begin with.

There's a big difference from improving a game and evolving a game into something else -- quality isn't the only thing representative of sales, it's also "freshness" (Seen in example for a game like Minecraft, it provided something new and different to most things previous even if it was full of bugs and poor graphics and stability for its time) and target market demographics.

>>1704808
You really want to play that card? Ok, let's take a look.
In 1986, Zelda beat out these big games to take #1:
>Arkanoid
>Bubble Bobble
>Dragon Quest
>Metroid
>Starflight
>Out Run
>Rolling Thunder

In 1987, Zelda II beat out these big games to take #1:
>Castlevania
>Contra
>Double Dragon
>Leisure Suit Larry
>Final Fantasy
>Head Over Heels
>Galaga '88
>Maniac Mansion
>Mega Man
>Metal Gear
>Pac-Mania
>Phantasy Star
>Street Fighter

In 1991, Link to the Past beat out these big games to take #2:
>Alien Breed
>Civilization
>Lemmings
>Final Fantasy IV
>F-Zero
>Neverwinter Nights
>Road Rash
>Street Fighter II
>Tecmo Super Bowl
The only game it couldn't beat was Sonic the Hedgehog.

In 1993, Link's Awakening beat out these big games to take #2:
>Doom
>Kirby's Adventure
>Mortal Kombat II
>Ridge Racer
>Master of Orion
>Myst
>Samurai Shodown
>Secret of Mana
>SimCity 2000
>Sonic CD
>Star Fox
>Syndicate
>Virtua Fighter
>X-Wing
The only game it couldn't beat was Super Mario All-Stars.

In 1998, Ocarina of Time beat out the following big games to take #2, and managed it on a losing console too:
>Age of Empires: The Rise of Rome
>Baldur's Gate
>Banjo-Kazooie
>Crash Bandicoot 3: Warped
>F-Zero X
>Fallout 2
>Gran Turismo
>Grim Fandango
>Half-Life
>Mario Party
>MediEvil
>Mega Man Legends
>Metal Gear Solid
>Need for Speed III: Hot Pursuit
>Oddworld: Abe's Exoddus
>Parasite Eve
>Point Blank
>Resident Evil 2
>Rush 2
>SiN
>Sonic Adventure
>SoulCalibur
>South Park
>Spyro the Dragon
>Star Wars: Rogue Squadron
>StarCraft
>StarCraft: Brood War
>Starsiege: Tribes
>Thief: The Dark Project
>Tomb Raider III
>Turok 2: Seeds of Evil
>Unreal
>Xenogears
The only game it couldn't beat was Pokemon Red/Blue.

You're talking a load of shit if you think any of those games had easy competition.

>>1704878
The market has expanded dramatically since 1998, and modern bestsellers are massively marketed on several systems, each more popular than two of the three nintendo consoles released in that time.

>>1704878
To continue, let's take a look at some of the "amazing competition" that beat out the newer games.

Majora's Mask lost to:
>Crash Bash
>Dragon Quest VII
>Driver 2
>Final Fantasy IX
>Tekken Tag Tournament
>Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2
>Pokemon Crystal
>Rugrats in Paris: The Movie
>Spyro: Year of the Dragon
>WWF SmackDown!
Wow, Crash Bash and Rugrats in Paris! That's some really stiff competition right there! Sure, asking Zelda to beat Castlevania, Contra, Doom, Lemmings, Metal Gear etc. is one thing but motherfucking Rugrats in Paris? No fucking way!

The "amazing competition" that beat out Wind Waker:
>Final Fantasy X-2
>Mario Kart: Double Dash!!
>Medal of Honor: Rising Sun
>Need for Speed: Underground
>The Simpsons: Hit & Run
>Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3
Wow, it's a whole lot of mediocre sequels and a port! That's some amazing competition right there!

Past that point the lists get too long and too embarrassing but I'll give you the edited highlights:
>Four Swords Adventures losing to the GBA port of the original NES Zelda
>Spirit Tracks losing to Lego Batman, FIFA Soccer 10 & Tomodachi Collection (a game that wasn't even released outside of Japan)
>Skyward Sword losing to FIFA Soccer 12, Just Dance 2, Just Dance 3 & Zumba Fitness
>Skyward Sword losing to the Kinect

>>1704914
you can't really count handheld sales because the thing with that is, anyone who wanted to play them emulated them while they were current. So kids games sold more than anything

>>1704878
First off, going to need a source for that list. I know for certain I've seen at least a few sites claim Starcraft to have been the top selling game of 98', and that's just off the top of my head. It also doesn't say if this is the number one games selling in the US, Europe, or the world, which will affect sales accordingly as different platforms were more popular in different places.

A lot of those games are PC in the later years, and while I don't have adoption rates of PCs in the US, I know that personally until about 2000, it was hard to find people who had a PC, let alone one modern enough to run the latest games on it -- almost everyone who played games did so with the vastly cheaper consoles, the couple of people I knew with a PC in 98 had either DOS or Windows 3.1 on it. I'm not going to even pretend most of the stuff listed for that platform isn't amazing, but I think it was more limited in the US due to the expense of consoles vs the expense of a PC at the time.

>>1704892
Well duh, that's why I'm using the highest each year rather than absolute numbers.

You seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that Nintendo cannot make modern bestsellers. I'll bring you back to reality.
In 2005, 7 of the Top 10 games were made by Nintendo, including the top two. None of them were Zelda.
In 2006, 9 of the Top 10 games were made by Nintendo, including the top seven. None of them were Zelda.
In 2007, 9 of the Top 10 games were made by Nintendo, including the top three. None of them were Zelda.
In 2008, 8 of the Top 10 games were made by Nintendo, including the top five. None of them were Zelda.
In 2009, 7 of the Top 10 games were made by Nintendo, including the top four. None of them were Zelda.
In 2010, 6 of the Top 10 games were made by Nintendo, including the top three. None of them were Zelda.
In 2011, the year where things fell apart for Nintendo, they still had 4 of the Top 10 games, including #3.
In 2012 they still had 2 of the Top 10 games.
In 2013 they had 3 of the Top 10 games.

Nintendo can make modern bestsellers. You're just making assertions without evidence.

>>1704915
What? I didn't know anyone who'd even heard of an emulator before about 2003 or 2004. Modchips, sure, we'd heard of them since the 90s, but since no-one had a CD burner you still had to buy your pirated games from a dodgy guy in an alley.

>>1704921
Made it a while back. Looked up notable video game releases of each year in Wikipedia then the sales data for each, usually from VGChartz or NPD. They're usually lifetime sales rather than yearly sales though as yearly sales are very hard to find before 2005. It's world data.

>>1704926
First of all none of this shit is retro
Secondly I'd love to see your sources because according to wikipedia you're bullshitting
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_in_video_gaming#Hardware_and_software_sales

They had 2 games in 2006 you fucking drone now fuck off back to /v/ with this shit

>>1704926
>You're just making assertions without evidence.
This is so fucking ironic it pains me

>>>/n/intendogaf

>>1704948
>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_in_video_gaming#Hardware_and_software_sales
>Best-selling video games of 2006 in the US
>in the US
The US isn't the world.

>>1704931
Just because you didn't have technology back then doesn't mean most people didn't. In 5th grade i soldered a modchip on my psx and copied everything i rented from family video. All gbc/a games i always emulated as they were released, i'd play bullshit i didn't care about because my parents hadn't bought shit for me in a while.

Back then my stepdad also hacked direct tv and got every channel for free, including pay per view new releases

>zelda is doing bad because they aren't absolute top-sellers
That's silly. Zelda still does well, it's just isn't as the top of the industry anymore. An example of a long-running franchise selling like shit is Final Fantasy, where the last big entry got outsold by a handheld spinoff.

>>1704914

I've always been curious as to why MM sold so poorly as compared to both what preceded and followed it. I would think a sequel to OOT would perform slightly better, or at least on par with it, and would certainly have outsold WW, which I think turned a lot of people off due to its drastically different visual style.

I suspect the reason is twofold, mainly the fact that the N64 was on the way out by the time of its release, and also in regards to its North American release, NoA had some mind-bogglingly stupid ad campaigns for it that showed little-to-no gameplay, and barely displayed the fact that they were even for a Zelda game.

>>1705092
imo the biggest reason was it was the end of the n64's lifespan, most people i knew were pawning theirs to get new shit by then
everyone i know had a dreamcast

is it just me, or is level 6 incredibly hard compared to anything the comes before (or after, because i did level 7 before this one, and it was a cakewalk)? you go into a room, and you have these things that take your sword away, so you can't fight off those fuckers that take your shild away, and there's wizards teleporting around all over the place shooting at you, and you can't defend yourself now, because you don't have a shield. should i just grind for rupees and buy the blue ring?

>>1705101
6 was even harder than 9 for me. Grind the ghosts for 250 rupees, m8

>>1705092
There was also negative word of mouth. Remember that many people rented games before buying them and based their buying decisions on the start of the game. Remember how Majora's Mask started?
>spend potentially up to 2 hours if you don't know what you're doing as a weak Deku scrub
>you can't save at all during these first 2 hours
>if you get really stuck and screw it up you have to restart from the very beginning
>you then have one hour of gameplay time to get time travel ability
>if you screw that up, back to the start with you again

Majora's Mask has the weakest start of any Zelda game by a massive margin. It doesn't even start to get decent until up to 3 hours into the game. I knew many people who loved Ocarina, rented Majora, played it for an hour or two and said "fuck that shit". That's why it tanked. I'd be prepared to bet that if it didn't have the Zelda name and Zelda characters in it, it wouldn't have even sold half a million.

>>1705127

This might be another thing, I recall a number of people I know shitting on the game for its rough opening, even a few years after its release. Personally, I like the game's beginning, since while it is really unforgiving, that does set the tone really well. A softer intro that held the player's hand wouldn't feel like a proper introduction to a game that has you dropped into completely unknown territory, which is a few days away from being completely destroyed, to boot.

I think, if anything the game has aged better with time. Sure the graphics are shit, but it's very much a different kind of game to anything you'd find now, and I think a lot of people who are just discovering it are really appreciating that fact.

>>1705132
The death-knell of the intro is that it fails to properly introduce the mechanics of the game. If you get into it through OoT, you're already familiar with the controls and combat so the bizarre opening shouldn't really hamper your ability to enjoy the rest of the game. Every single person I know that played MM as their first Zelda game hated it, even though I introduced some of them to OoT later on and they really enjoyed it.

>>1704865
> Myst

I think that you're glossing over the fact that Myst was one of the first games to put the player in a photo-realistic environment with voice-acted plots. It was innovative in its own right, that's why it did well.

In 2014, almost every single game released does this as its starting point, then layers its version of gameplay on top of it, so going back to Myst when there is a full library of games with photo-realistic environments that the player can explore isn't particularly interesting.

If the developers of Myst could find some way to adapt the gameplay to modern times instead of relying on the 'wow, look at this beautiful world we created' factor, they would be able to make a game that sold copies.

Ultimately, I think we're in violent agreement, and I specifically said that the LoZ series hasn't done anything 'fresh' since OoT, just evolved on the same formula its had for over 10 years.

I'll also incur the wrath of Zelda fanboys by saying this: OoT was a disappointment to me in every single way. The game was too short, was extremely linear and didn't reward early exploration because you always needed [insert item] to get anywhere, had no challenge outside of figuring out the Water Temple puzzle, and had annoyingly repetitive dialogue. The series hasn't gotten much better since then in those respects considering that the target market seems to be elementary school aged children and adults who have apparently forgotten how to think.

I mean, look at the complaints in this thread about the original -- apparently the game sucks because monsters will actually kill you and the game doesn't hold your hand telling you exactly where to go 5 times.

>>1705096
>imo the biggest reason was it was the end of the n64's lifespan, most people i knew were pawning theirs to get new shit by then

Could also be that some people were actually disappointed with the direction OoT took, even though it sold well. It's like movies -- you can tell how much people actually enjoyed a movie by how well the sequel sells tix. Sometimes a good sequel cannot compensate for the reputation of an over-hyped predecessor.

>>1704954
Doesn't matter. The franchise lost significant market share.

>>1704971
"Selling well" is relative. That's how business works. The fact of the matter is that Nintendo had a top franchise with LoZ and let it get stale and fizzle out.

I enjoyed WW and TP more than MM

>>1705459
>Could also be that some people were actually disappointed with the direction OoT took

Most popular Zelda ever disappointed people.
Okay.

And to make this straight my favourite is ALttP and I don't really like 3D Zeldas for many reasons, but to assume that OoT disappointed people is simply impossible.

>>1705454
>I mean, look at the complaints in this thread about the original -- apparently the game sucks because monsters will actually kill you and the game doesn't hold your hand telling you exactly where to go 5 times.

Why do you people need to exaggerate shit to bolster your argument?
People aren't complaining about the fact that there isn't an object marker, they're complaining about the game not giving them appropriate directions in areas like the lake where you have to sing the flute, stuff that is 100% trivial and the only tip the game gives you is "there is a mystery at the lake do something there".

I bet you also think Castlevania II is perfectly playable in the American translation too.

>>1705517
As I detailed above, it disappointed me. I know I'm not the only one. The game was beautiful, but ultimately devoid of gameplay substance compared to the original and LttP. Replay was terrible because you had to sit through slowly scrolling text tell the same story (which wasn't particularly compelling to begin with) and FMV loop 4 times, just in case you didn't get it the first time.

A title can sell well based on the rep of its predecessors; similarly, it can do poorly based on the rep of its predecessors. The fact that OoT was so popular is due, in part at least, to how great the original and LttP were.

>>1704864
My 6 year old brain was able to figure that out.

Also, read the thread. People aren't complaining about the flute, they're complaining of 'getting lost' after level 1/2 and dying while trying to figure out where to go.

>>1705536
Whoops meant to reply to:

>>1705521

>>1705530

One of the reasons I didn't like it as much as ALttP is what you said, the excessive dialogues, but to say that MM sold poorly because OoT disappointed most people is wrong in my opinion.
The reasons of MM failure have to be sought in it trying to shake up the formula too much, and as the previous anon said having a rocky start, and there are also real world "problems" like 1999 being the end of the N64 gen so kids weren't that much interested.

WW sold bad because GCN installbase was shit compared to SNES and N64(WW released in 2002 and by the end of its gen Gamecube sold like 20 millions units, which means the millions units sold in 2002 were probably around 5 or 6) and also because kids want to feel like a badass playing videogames and will judge a game by its cover, or in this case by its art-style deemed too cartoony.

>>1705517
The jubjub dungeon disappointed me, i tried to replay it a week ago and got to jubjub really quick, and then turned it off.

>>1705517
>I like the 2D Zelda games and dislike the 3D Zelda games, but to assume that one of them disappointed people is impossible.
Okay.

>>1705565

It didn't disappoint me though because I realized a 3D game would be different from a 2D game.
It was still a good game, had great controls that WORKED unlike many third person 3D games form the same era and the combat was overall good.

>>1705536
>Also, read the thread. People aren't complaining about the flute, they're complaining of 'getting lost' after level 1/2 and dying while trying to figure out where to go.

And those are the retards of the thread, but I've read other less retarded complaints that may come from playing it on VC/emulator and thus lacking a map.

>>1705547
I didn't say most, I said some.

Also I tended to notice that kids my age at the time (early teens) who had played LttP didn't care all that much for OoT while kids my little brother's age loved it. It sold well, but it was a game you beat in 15-20 hours and let collect dust while you replayed Goldeneye to get all the unlocks and beat your friends in DM (or FF7 to get the RPG fix. I personally think it was because the gameplay wasn't particularly challenging, especially once you knew how to figure out what few puzzles existed in the game, and the story wasn't compelling or well told. Nintendo stuck to that formula since, though. Hence part of the reason why future sequels wouldn't sell that well comparitively.

>>1705613
>I didn't say most, I said some.

I got the wrong impression then, my bad.

>>1705547
Also I gave WW an honest shot. The game is just boring while sailing around. That takes up far too much time and adds no value to the game. I got tired of that part and just never finished it.

I actually like the art direction of the game, too.

>>1705594

To continue this, a "secret" I consider well done is how you get the silver bow and arrows in AlttP.
In case you didn't get them the first time you face Ganon, the game punishes you(rightfully so) and then drops you where Zelda tells you you need them.
To find them, you talk to random villagers that tell you there is a "shiny" treasure inside the pyramid, and that to access it you need something better than a normal bomb.
You head for the bomb shop and get the bigger looking bomb, go there and find the special pond where you throw the bow.

It's intuitive and the game tells you the rough details so you can make it out by yourself just reasoning.

>>1705621

I love the art direction but mostly blocked myself at the Triforce quest because it's just so damn boring and had to force myself into it.
Also later you get the song to teleport from isle to isle so Nintendo must have realized that too.

This happens when Miyamopotato really likes Druaga and wants to make a game based on "ask your buddies about shit to progress", anon.

Original Zelda project was 2p dungeon exploring AND sharing. Shit would have been SO cash.

>>1705454

>likes myst
>doesn't like OOT

Myst was a pathetic, cryptic slideshow for dumb women who didn't like violence and filthy casuals.

If you liked it, that's your business, but even back then anyone seriously into games couldn't stand it.

>>1692512
Considering many of us beat this game without any walkthrough or hint book when we were like 5 years old, yes of course it's possible.

>>1692930
How are you supposed to know what gift you are supposed to give to that one guy, for fuck sake.

>>1704878
>>1704914
You aren't seriously convinced that the masses that eat up linear cinematic QTE games these days are consciously deciding not to buy Zelda games because they're "too stale", are you?

Fucking idiot.

>>1704914

A lot of those games you listed are good games though.

Except Rugrats in Paris but hey, parents and kids are stupid. It's why so much shovelware exists

>>1705594
I beat it without a map. You only need a map if your brain can't handle open-world exploring. If you are not a fan of that kind of thing, Zelda just isn't for you.

>>1705630
That's not a 'secret' at all. A secret is something you find without being told where it is.

>>1705958
> Missed the whole point of the post.

I never even talked about whether I like or disliked Myst; I talked about why it sold well and its influence on video games since then.

I didn't particularly find the game very interesting TBH, but I can acknowledge that it did something special for its time. I also think Myst was much more challenging than OoT, although had no replay value once you figured it out.

>>1706046
OoT Zelda and beyond tries to go with that linear cinematic formula. The problem is that as modern games have evolved in their cinematic storytelling to be somewhat passable, Zelda has stuck to various NPCs telling the almost the same story from 25 years ago in slightly different words multiple times throughout the game. I can only surmise that it's because Nintendo was making the games for 4-7 year olds.

The modern Zelda's fail as cinematic experiences because the story is shallow, uninteresting, and repetitive. They fail as adventure games because they are very linear and offer very little challenge. It's really that simple.

>>1706265
>If you are not a fan of that kind of thing, Zelda just isn't for you.

Which is why they gave you a physical map with the official game itself I guess.
And why they also gave you in-game maps for the dungeouns instead of asking you to draw your own like Metroid.

>>1706265

>why Myst sold well

It was because of CD drives and people liking pretty pictures. That's it. The game was pretty far from immersive.

>>1706379
The map included with the game doesn't tell you where the secrets are, so it's not all that useful. Gets you started with Levels 1-4 but you can find that easily by roaming around.

>>1693674
Check OpenMW and Skywind.

>>1706265
>modern games have evolved in their cinematic storytelling
That depends on what you mean by "cinematic storytelling", which is a vague marketing term. You're praising modern games for evolving out of being games.

>>1707651
I wasn't praising games for moving toward being pseudo-movies, but instead criticizing the LoZ series for moving in that direction from OoT onward while doing a very poor job of it by industry standards.

I would much rather play games with 20-30 hours of gameplay content rather than games with 7 hours of gameplay content and 5 hours of watching CGI animated characters with poor voice acting.

Yeah, all that voiceacting in modern zeldas, hoo boy

>>1707848
I don't understand how you're not getting his point.

>>1707587

Of course, but it's still useful to find stuff like the cemetary when the old woman tells you to find the man at the graveyard and other things.

>>1707813
You can thank a certain company for being responsible for inspiring companies to make "movie games".

>>1707903
They wouldn't be made if there weren't demand for them.

Also FF7 had very few movie sequences compared to modern games.