/vr/ - Retro Games

7 is pretty good. Last one before the series started to get really silly.

The first part of the game, up until you leave Midgar, is pretty great, but I have a hard time keeping interest for much long after that.

Really, at this point, more than anything, liking VII means you aren't a tryhard hiding behind FFVI's accepted mainstream popularity and fanboism.

It's still one of the greatest game ever made.

>>1688690
Same thing happened with me when I played it.

Really, at this point, more than anything, liking VII means you aren't a tryhard hiding behind FFVI's mainstream popularity and fanboism.

It's still one of the greatest games ever made.

I've never been able to get into it, I tried to play it 3 times, 2 of them I did 5 hours and the third time was 7 hours.
I got bored shitless of the game and I don't think it's good at all, but it looks like everyone likes it and I just can't find the good stuff in it.
Anyway, do give it another try, most people like it and even hail it as one of the best games ever made.

It depends on what you're looking for in an RPG. The story draaaaags in the middle, but the battle system is loads of fun. Graphics haven't aged well at all. Lots to do. Mix together materia and see what happens.

>>1688634
As soon as that final cutscene starts, just turn the game off. Please. You don't want to know. When I saw the ending, I threw the game into a lake.

My actual favorite Final Fantasy happens to be Final Fantasy VIII.

They gradually change the protagonist from an edgy angst teenager to a somewhat normal dude with friends and a gf.

I hate threads like this sometimes. Games aren't "one size fits all" Some people loved VI hated VII some hated VI and loved VII, others loved both, and other hated the whole damn series. There's no secret formula that states just cause you like a game before means you will or won't like the next game. Why not just try and emulate the game to see if you like it, then go from there, instead of posting a stupid "Is this game any good thread" knowing damn well it's likely to start a stupid arguement

It is the equivalent of Halo for FPS. Only good if it's My First RPG filtered through extreme nostalgia goggles.

Go play good RPGs. Pic related.

There are many reasons it's so popular.

One of them is that the game's pretty good.

>>1688762
>popular = good

Nah.

Still, FF7 is pretty good. I don't exactly know why some people seem to have a hateboner for it. The story isn't worse than in any other FF (though the translation is) and the gameplay not more broken. And as pointed out, you can do really lots of stuff.

>>1688634
This kind of question is hilarious to me. The game is the same fucking game. It was never patched. If you didn't like it the first time, you're not gonna like it again.

>>1688825

I initially didn't like Breath of Fire III. Years later I tried it again and found it great.

Games don't change, the player however does.

>>1688690
>>1688698
A large number of people also think it doesn't get good until after Midgar.

OPINIONS MOTHERFUCKER!

>>1688807
>popular = good

I didn't say that.

>>1688856

You're right. My apology.

It's an incredible game, OP. 99% of faggots who don't like it only don't because they're being contrarians who can't like anything popular.

>>1688839
This, Midgar sucked ass. It was a boring restrictive slog. The game actually gets fun when it finally opens up after you get out of the city.

>>1688730
>gf

>>1688862
He didn't say that, but he assumed it was popular because it's good. Which is false. Good things are rarely popular.

>>1688993
>Good things are rarely popular.

>Actually thinking this

>>1688965
Yes, running around in grass killing squirrels and chasing some katana edgemaster is obviously superior to the events that transpired in Midgar.

It's good. V, VI and IX are the best games in the series by a longshot though

>>1689039

Not him, but while I did enjoy the setting and atmosphere, Midgar was simply too linear for me. It would have been cool if they'd let you run wild in Midgar, maybe edding something like a sub-world map for the city like in Baldur's Gate.

>>1689050
>*adding

>>1688634
Yes, try it again. I used to think it was overrated and one of the lesser games in the series till I decided to replay it. It's pretty good. The cast is likable, the music is great, the gameplay is nice and Cloud is entertaining and nothing like his popular depictions. I think most of the hate it gets is because the fanbase and Advent Children can easily contort your view of it. Play the PC version with a retranslation patch.

>>1688965
I think the Midgar (and Junon) portions were the best part of the game. Industrial city settings are pretty rare in JRPGs and I wish we had to spend more time there.

>>1689050
>It would have been cool if they'd let you run wild in Midgar, maybe edding something like a sub-world map for the city like in Baldur's Gate.
Wasn't the game originally planned to be constricted to Midgar anyway? It's a shame we never got to explore the other sectors.

>>1689067
>Play the PC version with a retranslation patch

That's terrible advice.

>>1689050
You realize the vast fields of random encounters between cutscenes don't make the game non-linear? There is a path set in stone you must follow, you can't just waltz into Northern Crater and whack Sephiroth.

The game is linear period. Post-Midgar there's just more filler between cutscenes.

>>1689080
Except the story is nearly incomprehensible otherwise.

>>1689089
No, you're just an idiot.

>>1689089
lol

>>1689084
I do. Yet it's way more open compared to Midgar which restricted you always to exactly one place.

>>1689067
>the PC version
Wouldn't it be better and more purist to just play on the PSX (or emulate)? Thought FF7's PC version was bad.

>>1688745
This so hard

>>1689128
LOL DAE THIS SO HARD THO

>>1688634

Yes.

I recommend real hardware + CRT though, since those 240p backgrounds are not going to look good in emulation on an LCD.

>>1688634
FF7 is a solid undeniably good RPG/Game/JRPG/Experience. Anyone who does not like it either doesn't like RPGs in which case, fuck them or is just trying to seem unique. "I don't see why people think FF7 was so great."

If you like RPGs then this game is something to be respected for changing the game and paving the way for countless RPGs that you likely hold dear today.

Deep unique story, excellent combat, side quests and mini games to make your dick explode and secret bosses who are just too awesome to handle. If you were alive during the golden age of FF7 before guides and websites ruined the difficulty of gaming, trust me, you would worship FF7 for what it is. It deserves all the praise it gets and none of the criticism. But fuck Square/SquareEnix.

>>1689119
>Thought FF7's PC version was bad.
It was, but in 2010 (I think) the re-released a PC version that corrected all the errors of the past one.

>>1689140
lol, no it doesn't. It just takes a DRM dump on it while losing access to important patches that make the game far better than the PS1 original now.

>>1689130
Eh, I think emulating it is fine. The battle scenes look phenomenal upscaled.

>>1689146

The backgrounds look like shit though.

>>1688701
Maybe on /vr/. Most people who have only played the newer of Final Fantasies, or none at all, automatically claim VII is the best just because it's popular. And fans of other FFs, not just VI, get pissed because VII gets all the love and glory while their games are only discussed in smaller, more niche circles where everyone is considered weird and gross by mainstream audiences. Also, FFVII brings in some of the most retarded weeb faggots ever into the fandom, who are also stupid enough to buy Square's new stuff in hopes they'll remake FFVII, which they never will.

>>1689140
It's not worth it. There are just some stupid achievements, some pay to win options and the music is still low quality like in the original except that One Winged Angel sounds even worse.

Not to mention that I'm pretty sure it locks you out of some nice mods for it.

>>1689171
My experience is that whenever there's a Final Fantasy discussion anywhere (including but not limited to 4chan), it's always like this:
>FF6 was undeniably the best, Kefka is the best villain ever, is always compared to Sephiroth, FF6 is underrated
>FF7 ranges from terrible to okay to overrated game without many outspoken fans
>FF8 is loved or hated
>most people hate post-10 FFs
etc. etc.
With the way it looks like I can't help but feel like FF6's been called underrated so many times it's not underrated anymore.

Also, most of the retarded weeb faggots I see haven't even played FF7, just watched AC.

>who are also stupid enough to buy Square's new stuff in hopes they'll remake FFVII, which they never will.
I have some bad news for you, anon...

FF7-my-favorite-game reporting

>>1689197
Maybe someday FFVI will be the overrated and FFVII the underrated. It's the cycle of life.
I just enjoy games though.

>>1689197
Within the FF community VI isn't overrated, it takes a place as one of the best and most beloved entries alongside VII, IX and Tactics. It's just that when something someone enjoys is overshadowed to the degree that the rest of the FF series(except maybe 1 and the 13 games) is overshadowed by VII, fans of other entries get bitter. I love both VI and VII to death, they are both amazing, but whenever VII is brought up outside a place like /vr/(and other sites that are host to hardcore FF fans), people who played Kingdom Hearts, seen Advent Children and played Crisis Core just say they love VII, even if they haven't played it, and that cacophony of autism is so bad it has an impact on anyone else who honestly wants to discuss the series as a whole because you have a large group of annoying faggots ruining everything by being generally ignorant and unwilling to play anything that isn't new or popular. Hell, there are some people like that who won't even play VII because it is so old, yet insist it is the best one. Are all VII fans like that? No, there are quite a few that like FFVII because it's a great game, but talking to fellow autists over the internet on sites like 4chan or a lesser-known FF board gets redundant and tiresome, but talking to the series to "fans" goes like this:
>"LOL HAVE YOU PLAYED KINGDOM HEARTS, LE CLOUD IS MEH FAVORITE CHARACTER, LEON IS TEH SEXI XD~~~~
>What, FFV? lol that game looks shitty, it isn't even in 3d!
>ew, why you r u getting so mad? lol, ff7 is teh best, it has been in every kingdom hearts game and got a movie, no other ff did that so 7 is the best, get over it :)

>I have some bad news for you anon...
VII isn't being remade. Ever. The best Square will ever do is slap HD onto the title and port it to PSN, Xbox Live, Steam and mobile phones and call it a day, they don't want to spend the time or money remaking VII. Don't believe me, pic related.

Its good, but the narrative loses focus after Disc 1. Still enjoyable, and personally I like the combat better than FF6.

>>1688839
>>1688965
Just a big theme change between them

>Midgar
Steampunk eco terrorism

>After Midgar
Where in the world is Sephoroth?

>>1689347
actually FFVI is already declared overrated yet FFVII is still overrated

most FF fans call FFIV the true masterpiece
/vr/ calls FFV the true masterpiece

FFVII wasn't bad

but it was elevated enough to annoy people who noticed it's glaring flaws.

Really the game is just a regular FF game but in a steampunk age where the evil empire was a Eco-unfriendly business

>>1689427
This reminds me of this screencap of some forum with people arguing over FFVII. Whole argument ended with everyone saying they've only seed Advent Children.

Speaking of AC I've never actually seen it. Just how bad does it muck things up about FFVII? I remember hearing there were two versions.

>>1689976
basically the J-cells created an emo-virus and they had to stop emo-cultists from recreating Jenova

Lifestream cleared that shit right up

watch it only for the good CGI battles and nothing else.

>>1689976
I haven't seen it since it came out, but from what I remember it's pretty much just wank. Cloud is now a douche, Sephiroth comes back for about 5 minutes just because, Rufus is alive for some reason, it's all pretty dumb. The fights were kinda cool, but I was like, 16 at the time so take that with a grain of salt. I don't know if AC Complete makes it any better, probably not.

>>1689089
It kind of is. A lot of us who played it when it came out have slowly come to understand the story better because we've all discussed it and perhaps researched it on the internet, but the standalone NTSC game is not particularly clear.

I finished playing the game again recently and I was still surprised at how many non sequiturs were running loose all over the game's script. Those scenes where Cloud starts to break down and hear Jenova in his head just seem like he's thinking to himself in the voice of someone with flat brain syndrome. I mean, it's not just "This guy are sick" type stuff. So many little jokes were lost in translation, like monster names.

I can't speak to that new translation's quality but I'd definitely try it if I could right now.

>>1689089
>I can't follow a Final Fantasy plot

really?

>>1688634
VI is the greatest overall game of all time
VII is the greatest "cinematic" game of all time

Everyone should at least play through it once. Its worth it.

>>1688643
The last one before the series became wholly convoluted bullshit was FFIIINES. FFI was minorly convoluted, FFII not at all and FFIII moderately. FFIV was convoluted as all-get-out, but, despite poor translation/localisation (Zemus/Zeromus out of fucking nowhere why?) of the US FFIISNES game, it was good. FFV was surprisingly straightforward and good. FFVI was more straightforward than IV, but the characters were surprisingly less fleshed out.
FFVII and FFVIII are a pair of convoluted clusterfucks of bullshit. FFIX returns back to a semi-convoluted but still not bad game.
I've not played any numbered FF released since IX.
FFT, though rather complex, is surprisingly not convoluted. It's a tad confusing and hard to keep track of, but so is the IRL history its story was based on. It has the best story of any FF branded media.

>>1690002
>the standalone NTSC game is not particularly clear

The only two ambiguous things in the game are the ending and whatever the fuck was going on with Lucrecia. The former is intentional, and the latter is very unimportant. Everything else is explicitly spelled out, and the fact that you couldn't follow it says more about your intelligence than the translation.

>>1690056

Lucrecia was a scientist far more brilliant than Dr. Hojo. After she helped(or probably did most of the work) on Vincent, she went into seclusion, and left Hojo to his twisted designs. She transforms herself into Vincent's ultimate attack as a means to atone to what she did to him.

End fanfiction.

>>1688745
>Ultima IV
>good RPG
>accuses others of nostalgia goggles
Lol this guy

People say Cloud was broody

FFVII wasn't even broody
AC's cloud was broody but only due to Jenova-cells
Got nothing on the other spin-offs though

>>1690060
Ultima IV is a genuine good RPG, and probably the earliest computer RPG I'd recommend to anyone who likes the genre.

>>1690072

A broody man doesn't play snowboard and motorcycle racing games in golden saucer all day anon.

>>1690076
He doesn't crossdress either

>>1690076
>I'm going to disregard several scenes in favor of completely optional minigames!

Both extremes are retarded.

>>1690075
No it isn't. The concept is novel and never has been properly expanded upon since, but the game is full of flaws on its own. The novelty of seeking out hints from townsfolk via the game's limited text parser wears off after the first 10 hours, which is also about the time when you get close to maxing out your virtues, and then it becomes a tedious treasure hunt through a world full of lengthy yet utterly trash encounters.

>>1690079
I mean he did get mental breakdowns what with Jenova cell mindfuckery and constant failure at everything didn't protect Tifa, didn't protect Aeris, didn't join SOLDIER, village and mother burned down by childhood hero, etc.

But even if you compare him to characters of FF before VII, he's pretty average where FF is concern.

>>1690080
It makes me sad to see someone describe actual good gameplay that doesn't rely on handholding and follow-the-path bullshit of modern J AND WRPGs like this.

I honestly believe that anyone under the age of 30 is incapable of enjoying real games.

>>1690084
Good gameplay isn't having a completely unbalanced stat model and monsters that stop posing a challenge for you past the first 15 minutes of the game. This wouldn't be as much of a problem if there was much less emphasis on them - but they're fucking everywhere. And you MUST fight them, lest you lose your precious virtue points.

>>1690020
None of them are convoluted unless you have a potato for a brain

>>1690090
>modern RPGs
>monsters everywhere that you're forced into combat with
>okay

>old RPG
>you must fight monsters
>OMG THIS SUCKS

I will never understand nugamers.

>>1689976
>Speaking of AC I've never actually seen it. Just how bad does it muck things up about FFVII?
They recharacterised Cloud into an unmotivated Emo faggot, which is now the majority perception of him despite his character being the exact opposite in FF7.

>>1690114
Did you even read my post or did you just see the word "monsters" and automatically started typing a response? In practically every decent RPG the monsters pose at least some superficial danger for the party; bosses more so. Not so in Ultima 4, where the only threat they pose is putting you to sleep - literally or figuratively.
>nugamers
Lol. My favorite RPG is from 1992, and has tons of monsters. But it also has a good gameplay system to work with.

>>1690114
Uh not that anon, but one of the hallmarks of modern RPG design is that you're NOT forced into battles constantly.

>>1690118
>They recharacterised Cloud into an unmotivated Emo faggot

Maybe you should try watching the movie before talking about it.

>>1690128
...But he's right, the entire movie is character assassination.

>>1690128
I did. Fangirl elsewhere/

>>1690134
>>1690138

No, Cloud's characterization in the movie is perfectly in line with how it's presented in the game. The fact that you can't understand a simple character like Cloud is really pathetic.

>>1690142
Are you completely retarded, in FF7 Cloud is an arrogant obsessively driven character who smack talks literally everyone he meets. AC cloud has nobody who can understand his pain, nobody he trusts, he has to be alone... FAGGOT.

Get real, you watched AC before you played FF7 and you project that shitty fanfic tier character onto your experience of the game.

>>1690147
>AC cloud has nobody who can understand his pain

Which is true, considering just how badly he fucked himself and the world up. Thanks for proving my point.

One of the best JRPGs. Of course "best JRPG" is like "tallest midget".

>>1690134

>>1690114
Spoony, go to sleep.

>>1690114
Except in FF games you can escape instead of fighting monsters, bosses are somewhat interesting and combat with weak monsters is quick. In UIV monsters are no threat after some point, you can't escape because you'll loose chivalry, there is almost no variation and battles drag on forever. UIV is interesting but sadly inferior to most open-world RPGs.

Do these games ever go on sale on PSN?

>>1690156
>"I will finish zipping my shoes when you zip up my wounded emotions"

every time

Who did you Gold Saucer with /vr/?

>>1690056
It's not that the main story is unclear. Every key plot point is explained fine, or can be inferred easily. It's just that everything in between is muddled. A lot of characters' personalities don't come through because of it, and many random conversations kind of just seem like word salad.

>>1690220
Nice backpedaling.

>>1690202
A few times a year. I got FFVIII and IX last year on a FF/squeenix sale for $3 each with plus.

>>1690213

Cool kids only go with Barret.

>>1689960
Not baiting, but I'm curious as to what you would say these glaring flaws are.

>>1690142
I typically hate when people use the "autist" card on this site, but seriously, are you so autistic that you can't even understand how vastly different FF7 Cloud and AC Cloud are?

>>1690319
Not him but I'd guess the usual JRPG suspects of tediously common random encounters with overlong combat animations and overtly contricting linearity, along with unskippable cutscenes and setpieces (don't remember exactly, correct me if I'm wrong) & dramatic drama plotwisting plotwists up the anus

>>1689960
>Really the game is just a regular FF game

Pretty much this. If you like FF6, you'll almost certainly also like FF7.

this sectarian bickering is so retarded
every retro FF is at least worth trying

>>1690156
Absolutely hilarious.

>>1689092
>>1689105
Are you really defending the subpar translation? There are some very awkward lines and poor wording that makes you interpret a scene differently. All that comes together to provide a less than optimal experience. Are you outright denying that?

Labeling an entire plot thread that wasn't properly explained as unimportant as a way to tell someone not to play a retranslation of the game is stupid.

>>1690527
Pretty much.

I've enjoyed all the ones I've played, which is 1, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 10-2, 11, and 12.

I haven't played 2 or 3, but I don't really like 9 just because its very slow paced, and takes a long time for the game to "get going" so to speak.

Strange coincidence. I've actually started playing this. This will have been my first Final Fantasy game. I have to say, it's really not bad. Certainly makes the hours disappear, and I do have to break from it every now and then (burnout).

But...yeah. It's no Shenmue, but I really can't say to much bad for it, especially for a game released back in '97. It's turning out to be very long too. I haven't even finished the first disc.

>>1691256
Disc 1 is by far and wide the longest. Disc 2 is shorter and disc 3 is literally the final dungeon.

>>1688701
It's just like OoT (excepting that OoT really is much better).

Fantastic game. I'm a hardcore fan of 6. I recognized later on that 7 is basically the same damn game but with Shinra replacing the Empire Gestahl. The graphics did not age well though.

>>1691263
and bonus bosses

>>1692321

Wrong, when Cid's theme starts on the world map on disc two before you enter Midgar you can fight Ultimate weapon and Ruby. Unless of course Ultimate weapon decides to fly over Midgar and "destroy" it.

>>1690153
>Cloud
>Fucked up the world

Cloud and his friends fucking SAVED the world from Sephiroth, the worst thing Cloud did was get possessed because he was experimented on while in a coma. Jesus Christ you fucking mongoloid, learn to actually play a game and not look up the synopsis on Wikipedia.

>>1691242
2 has possibly the most retarded battle system in the whole franchise, and it was just broken fundamentally in so many waysGo left and die. The story was ok and you could tell they tried their best making a serious story, even if it felt like Star Wars alot of the time.

3 is fun, if a little restrictive, it's biggest flaw is that it got blown the fuck out by FFV.

>>1691452
I felt like a lot of FFs reused the same idea:

>Rebel or ragtag group of protaganists from a bunch of different places and backgrounds.
>Evil empire that serves as the first antagonist of the game.
>Later replaced with a super big bad, either alien or beyond mortal.

>FF4: Baron/Golbez -> Zemus
>FF6: Empire -> Kefka
>FF7: Shinra -> Sepherioth
>FF8: Galbadia -> Sorceress
>FF9: Alexandria -> Kuja Or Necron
>FF10: Temple/Seymour -> Yevon

I mean, FF5 was refreshing in that regard, once you discover the big bad, he stays the big bad all throughout the game.

>>1690527
True, but it happens. Besides conversations where everyone agreed all the time and respected each others opinions would get boring. Besides, we'd be no better than the autists on Gaia who agree that FMA and Naruto are the best anime ever made, or the fags on Reddit who say that Ocarina of Time is the best game ever.

Anger and disagreement are the spice that makes life interesting my friend.

>>1688701
>FFVI
>mainstream popularity

FFVI isn't overrated, it's underexposed, which all the FFs besides the new ones are. Except for FFIV, Square really fucking likes FFIV.

>>1692585
>I mean, FF5 was refreshing in that regard, once you discover the big bad, he stays the big bad all throughout the game.
Yeah I guess you could say he was firmly rooted as the villain

>>1692585
though give FFVIII some credit, they begin telling you that Sorceresses were what you were against all along.

You just fought Galbadia because you failed to assassinate the first one.

>>1692621
FFVII, FFVI, and in some cases FFIV is usually what people say when they talk about Final Fantasy.

>>1688634
yes its not my favorite story but its my favorite cast and soundtrack the gameplay is fun but way too easy

>>1692585
To be fair that's pretty much one of the absolute most basic fantasy stories, and the devil is in the details.
Except the uh, alien thing out of nowhere that keeps happening they should probably stop that.

>>1688634
oh god, the feels

>>1688634
I think a lot of 7's popularity comes from the fact that it was a lot of people's first intro to RPG's.

Furthermore, the simplified equipment system and focus on story instead of needing to grind made it have more mainstream appeal.

Personally, 7 was the 3rd FF game I had played and the fact that it seemed like FF6 (story similarities, exact copies of SFX even though it's on a 32-bit system) with a graphics facelift but stripped down equipment system made me dislike it more.

Also, fucking Chocobo breeding. Square should be banned from putting repetitive grinding luck tasks into games in order to get the best equipment. The same damn thing ruined FFIX from topping FF6 (and the fact that the transition from overworld to battles took too long cuz by then the PS1 was getting outdated).

>>1693563
>Furthermore, the simplified equipment system and focus on story instead of needing to grind made it have more mainstream appeal.


Not like FFVII was the least complex of it's franchise, FFVI was the easiest final fantasy game and FFIV didn't even have any customization.

>>1688835
>Games don't change, the player however does.
Wow man, that´s deep.
It´d be also a great publicity slogan to appeal to older gamers.

>>1693780
>FFIV didn't even have any customization.
people tend to ignore the significance of equipment choice
if you always just go with whatever has the highest attack power on the character screen then you can often wind up doing less damage than you could be doing

>people complain about no customization in FF4
>people also praise FF9

Customization is only really meaningful when it has consequences that can't just be undone at will.
FF1 actually came really close to hitting that mark, if only the balance was better.

>>1693780
Complexity and challenge aren't the same thing.

Turn based RPGs aren't challenging after the first time through when you are trying to find enemies' weaknesses and patterns.

I never mentioned FF4 or customized characters. Since you brought it up, I prefer 4's class system and subtle customizable characters through equipment over 6's teach everyone every spell and max mag pwr because it is the only stat that matters. Half of that is the game's algorithms making str, spd, and sta useless though with no way to raise def or evade.

>>1692570
Killing Sephiroth released Geostigma and doomed an entire generation of kids to die of space cancer. Oh, and Cloud's dying too.

>b-b-b-but AC Cloud isn't in line with the original!

You're absolutely retarded if you think Cloud wouldn't be immensely depressed if something like that happened in the game.

>>1693831
>if you always just go with whatever has the highest attack power on the character screen then you can often wind up doing less damage than you could be doing
How so?
If you're thinking of elemental damage, remember how few weapons actually deal that

>>1692585
And even that idea originates in Dragon Quest 3.

>>1692585
Eh, FFX isn't a great example. Sin is the enemy from like, the first five minutes in. The temple and Seymour are just incidental.

>>1688634

I LOVE FF7. The scenery, the characterizations, and everything is just so perfect.

It's a shame that Square will never ever again ahve its shit together to produce the kinds of games it produced durig the PS1 era.

>>1693891
>people also praise FF9

Fixed classes are heavily integrated into the storyline so it was kind of necessary.

>>1694282
Not just elemental damage, weapons with slaying properties

>>1694282
Not him, but IIRC every character except Edge in FFIV can equip elemental weapons and they retain usefulness until everyone gets their ultimate equipment near the final dungeon.

I'm not a fan of the 'blank slate' approach that FF7/8 took on purpose and 6 by accident through damage algorithms that practically ignored some stats.

>>1694863
>except Edge
claws

>>1688634
>Is Final Fantasy 7 actually any good? FF6 is my favorite. I tried 7 many years ago, I remember not liking it. Should I try it again?
6 is probably my fave too anon, but yeah 7 is really good. It was the last good game in the series actually.

>>1694863
Aside from I, IV and IX, are there any FFs that actually have distinctly unique characters? I suppose maybe XII IJS counts. It seems like blank states are the norm rather than the exception.

>>1689953
This. It has a good story, and some fun scenes, but the actual gameplay is pretty dull. The Materia system is not very engaging and kind of a pain when you switch party members.

>>1695053
>7 was the last good game in the series.
What is FFIX?

>>1695969
This
9, 10, 11, and 14 are all good
i even liked 13

>>1695975
I feel really conflicted about X
The combat is fun enough but the story/writing/characters are kinda terrible

>>1695987
The story is pretty lame but the characters are cool. As game characters, if you don't get hung up in their story.
Auron's a badass, titan's pretty cool, lulu's a badass, yuna summons badasses, kimari's a badass etc

>>1695994
tidus*

>>1690213
The first time, it was Yuffie.
I really wasnt expecting that back then, let me tell you.

>>1695969
An incredible slog with a mediocre story.

I'm in the same boat OP, I got up to the Gold Saucer some years ago and never felt motivated to get any further.

Partially because if I had to listen to this fucking theme one more time I was ready to start burning shit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMaGq6vn7hg

I like the FF7 soundtrack, but god fucking damn.

I should probably give it another try sometime, I definitely didn't mind it that much apart from that.

>>1696165

I have that song on my ipod

It's the most boring shit I've ever player, if you want good JRPG's try with Dragon Quest

>>1696243
But Dragon Quest is the same shit except without a gloomy setting

>>1696253
>>1696243


DQ has fuck-ugly Akira Torayama style for everything

And less-than-memorable soundtracks in comparison to the Nobuo Uematsu PS1 FF work

And the battle system is stupid with everyone facing the cameras

And no real memorable characters except DQ8's Jessica. Everyone in gaming know who Cloud and Sephiroth are even if they've never played a FF, but how many can name off DQ characters? *crickets chirp*

>>1696262
>And the battle system is stupid with everyone facing the cameras
And it's faster, which is a godsend
>And no real memorable characters except DQ8's Jessica. Everyone in gaming know who Cloud and Sephiroth are even if they've never played a FF, but how many can name off DQ characters? *crickets chirp*
Torneko, Alena, Papas from DQ5, Yangus...?
DQ isn't as character centric anyway. It's a bit closer to the WRPG ideal of the MC being a blank slate for the player, except it doesn't usually have character creation.

>>1695909
VI has pretty distinctly unique characters. Every character has their own special skill, and in the first 1/2 of the game the fact that Celes/Terra have higher magic power than the rest makes them the natural mages.

You don't HAVE to make everyone into an Ultima or Flare mage, you just are able to once you acquire +2 mag pwr espers and Bahamut, Ragnarok or the Paladin Shield. At that point it's when the characters start to meld.

FF8 gets way too much hate. It was the most ambitious FF to date by far in terms of the scope of it's storytelling.

>>1696347
According to original grolious nihongo berushon of FFVI, Terra/ina is a 'Mage Warrior,' and Celes a 'Runic Knight.'

As much as I enjoy FFVI for its story and setting (I enjoy steampunkish-like works), I detest the characters which had little to no development in comparison to characters in other FF games. Except Terra. She grew as a personality.

The characters were mostly placeholders. Which character the player chose to have in party did not alter at all what the game script was. Don't believe me? Try having Gau in the lead when the party first learns of magicite from Ramuh in Zozo.
Oh! Look! He's as eloquent and well-spoken as all the other characters are. Now try having Cyan. Suddenly, he speaks in a far less anachronistic manner in comparison to his normal speech patterns.
They're not all that distinct. FFVII's characters are more distinct in story but less in gameplay. FFVI's characters are the opposite.
I'd greatly enjoy if FFVI were redone with Espers functioning in the same way as personae do in the Persona series (IE once the magicite is unequipped, the character no longer has its respective spells in their spell list) and with the script changing depending on who is in the party when scenes occur. I dislike that everyone can learn every spell.
I'd have Terra be the sole character able to learn every spell and have her as a more central protagonist than she is.
Relm should learn permanently learn only white and whatever the grey-coloured spells are called in-game, using magicite/Espers in the same Persona-esque manner as the other characters would. Strago only black.
Celes would best function more like a classic red mage, learning both white and black but at the expense of being unable to permanently learn higher level spells.
Also, have character special skills be more useful.
I'd like that a great deal but I, alas, have very poor romhacking skills to ever implement such a drastic gameplay change. Le sigh.

>>1696285
Just ignore that kind of post. Nobou even admits he's nothing compared to koichi.

>>1696414
And Hayao Miyazaki once said that he had no talent for cartoons or comics.
It's called 'false humility,' something nihonjin are well-known for. 'I'm waaaaay more humble than you are! You could never hope to be as humble as me!' Nip culture is full of this sort of behaviour. It's as though false humility is built into their genes or something.

Even my half-Nip cousins, who have never been to Japan and know no other Nips besides my aunt (their mum), do this shit. It's annoying.
'Oh, I'm not that great of an artist. I'm just world-renowned and have my work displayed in art galleries around the world, is all.' I hate when one of my cousins does this. Just take the damn complement with a "thank you," you squinty-eyed fuck.

>>1696391
But anon, a great deal of characters go through character arcs

Terra learns to open up and finds a reason as to why her life has meaning
Celes learns that she can be more than a tool for war
Locke accepts the death of his love and moves on with his life
Cyan comes to terms with the untimely demise of his family and his king

And even for the characters who don't go through a large, swooping arc we see them get more back-story and characterization than most characters in any other FF game do. Shadow, Edgar and Sabin, Gau, Setzer, Relm, Strago, each of them have a moment in the spotlight to do something that defines their character and makes them very empathetic. As for the placeholder argument, well yeah, they didn't have the programming capabilities to customize the game to what you did, this WAS only the SNES era, and unlike the other FFs this one didn't have a distinct main character.

As for how they all play, In my personal experience I found their playstyles unique enough to at least differentiate one another, however I will admit that Square did drop the ball on the whole Esper/Magicite system, even if it is fun.

Also
>FFIV
>Having characters that weren't there just to die and move the plot forward.

I love FFIV, but nearly every character in that game aside from Cecil, Rosa, Kain, Golbez and Edge were bland as fuck and were only created to add more drama and to inevitably die so that the plot could move forward and everyone could angst in order to give the player the illusion that those characters stood out.

>>1696423
This kind of post is why I love /vr/. You could of replied with some shit slinging but instead you post a well thought out argument.

While I believe that comparing the two is like comparing Mozart to Cobain I can see why people would prefer it.

>>1696429
Celes behaved, reacted and spoke identically before and after her arc.
Locke behaved, reacted and spoke identically before and after his arc.
Cyan behaved, reacted and spoke identically before and after his arc.
Gau behaved, reacted and spoke identically before and after his arc.
etc etc etc

That's not development. At all. There was no change. They were the same characters before as well as after. They learned nothing from their stories. Terra is the only one that grew and changed in the whole game. I like FFVI, but the characters are a bit... poorly fleshed out. It has the makings of a fine story with much character interaction and growth but didn't get the chance. I'd like to see each individual character further explored in the same manner as Lunar PSX v Lunar SCD. FFVI is a better game than either ver of Lunar, but the PSX Lunar took the bare templates laid out by the SCD and expanded the characters, making them a bit more individualistic than the original ever did, WD translation be damned.

>>1696441
Thank you. And that's no false modesty, lemme assure ya. It drives me simply batty when my cousins do this.
>You're such a good cook/artist/writer/whatever. Good work!
>Anon's cousin: I spent only minutes. I'm sorry it wasn't better quality.
Just take the bloody compliment, for fuck's sake!

>>1696479
You know, I had this exact conversation a few months ago, and I'll tell you what I told the last guy I argued this with: Just because they act the same doesn't mean they didn't have a character arc. When a person goes through what any of those four did they don't receive a drastic personality change, it just means that they overcame their obstacles and have moved on in life.

For example, let's say that your a parent or other close family member dies. You'd be sad right? Depressed and asking why they had to die, and wondering about where your life is headed now. When you come to that realization your whole character doesn't change, you don't go from being a one thing to a completely different thing, it just means that you overcame your hardship(s) and are ready to move on.

And the only characters that are poorly fleshed out are GoGo and Umaro, who are more just extra joke/bonus characters anyway. Every other character has a definitive personality, and each character has moments that show you just what they are.

The Coin Toss, the Opera Scene, meeting Gau's dad, Setzer reminiscing about Daryll, Shadow's dreams, the Memento, Stargo's last hunt, Celes attempting to commit suicide, Locke's flashbacks about Rachel, etc, etc. There are so many moments in FFVI that, even if they don't necessarily set up or end a character arc, perfectly flesh out the characters they are about. You can't argue that characters didn't grow and change just because they didn't have a personality flip, the game does show you how they change without having long bouts of dialogue and exposition.

>>1689427
As a t/3/apot, that screencap makes me cringe. They have absolutely no fucking idea what they are talking about.

>>1696540
You know what an arc looks like, yeah? It's a section of a circle. If you complete the circle, you go 360° and wind up back where you started with no change. Arcs, by definition, don't have their end meet with their beginning.
Once a 'character arc' is completed, the character should differ from how s/he started. That's an arc. That's development. If the character has remained unchanged, what sort of arc was it? What development was achieved? Development by its very definition is change. If there's no change, there is absolutely no development. None.

>>1688634
>FF7 thread
>Guaranteed 150+ replies

Nice job, dipshit.

>>1696540
Are you the same person who confused a character's story with that character's development in a CT thread?

>>1696707
Why am I not surprised you still have autism

>>1696423
>>1696479
Starting to risk getting extremely off topic here but not all modesty is false modesty. I'm not very comfortable with praise and it makes me frustrated (sometimes even angry) when I get praise for something I do that doesn't live up to my own standards.

>>1696724
Didn't you get your anus handed to you in that thread when several different posters showed you the difference between story progression and character development? I was but one of those posters, but there was at least one other that tried to edumuhcate you on the difference.
Also
>being right = having autism
What's being wrong, then? Having Down's Syndrome? Enjoy your extra chromosome, tard.

It seems to me that whether one likes DQ or FF is a good mark of taste
I love DQ for keeping combat fast, non-gimmicky and no long animation bullshit, the stories are heartwarming and mostly simple hero's journey, without the tiring annoying protagonists, pretentious themes and convoluted storylines I don't give a shit about. I like the graphical style and unique and humorous monsters, the soundtracks range from great to fucking amazing like in 8 and the pace of the games is really good
I feel I'm the sort of person who'll never get into FF, I'm hugely prejudiced, I don't know

>>1696821
I like them both, where does that fit in with your silly world view

>>1696832
Well you must like them for different and often opposimg reasons so that's irrelevant to the point
I like old and new FP but I realize the big conflift about what makes good game design over them

>>1696845
Old and new FPS*

>>1696845
I like them both because they are both fun

>>1696863
Nice argument

>>1696880
I'm not making an argument, I'm stating my reason for liking them

>>1688634
>I remember not liking it.

You shouldn't force yourself to play things you don't like.

It's not for you. And that's okay.

>>1696697
While you raise a good point in this post, the only evidence you're really using to illustrate this point is dialogue.

1. Said characters speak similarly before and after their arc
2. All characters (incl. Gau and Cyan) have to speak fairly similarly due to programming limitations

Considering how little dialogue is in the endgame, I'm not quite sure how it would even be possible for the characters to fulfill your criterion for an arc.

I would argue that the character-centric moments highlighted in this anon's post: >>1696540
do plenty to flesh out the characters, show you where they come from, and how the adventure made them grow as people.

The game admittedly doesn't do much to remind you of this -- and I honestly don't know how it could from a tech perspective.

Even if you want to make the case that the 15 playable characters didn't have full arcs, you can't say they're not 'fleshed-out', IMO.

Focused character moments do a great job painting a strong picture of the character, and one can argue that they're set up so their respective development is implicit in the overall narrative

>>1697052
But that's just it. They didn't grow as characters at all. Other than Terra. They are exactly the same before as after. Cyan was supposed to get over his fear of machinery, if you recall? Oh? What's that? You don't? Because it was such a nothing bit. He overcame his fear of machinery, supposedly, but there is no allusion to it, mention of it or even slight nods at all other than the literally two sentences at the end of the bit where the party re-recruits him back.

That was a huge chance for character development and it was tossed to the wayside.

Relm. Strago. Shadow. Setzer. All of them. They had their stories progress but none but Terra had their characters/personalities grow/develop at all.

How can you argue
>their respective development is implicit in the overall narrative
while simultaneously admitting
>The game admittedly doesn't do much to remind you of [how they grow as characters]

That's wholly contradictory.

Furthermore, I never made any case that the characters had no full arcs. Only Umaro, Gogo, Gau and Mog had no arc at all. Even a partial arc is an arc nonetheless but the difference is... they had story arcs. Not development arcs.
Again: their stories progressed but their characters did not.

Even the most rudimentary, silly Japanese cartoon has characters that experience overly exaggerated development such as the oft-mentioned 'tsundere' phenomenon. The difference here is that FFVI didn't have exaggerated development. It didn't even have a subtle one. Save Terra it was just non-existent.

I like FFVI. I really do. But that doesn't mean I have to like where it comes up short. It comes up short in its lack of character development.
I like FFVI better than FFIV, even. But FFIV had far better examples of character development than FFVI did, is all. I fucking detest FFVII and it had better character development than FFVI. Its lack of character growth doesn't make it a bad game. It is what it is, is all.

If i liked ff7 what other psx games should i play?

>>1697081
There are admittedly no other games on PSX like it. FFVIII comes close, but most find it lacking in comparison. I like neither, but if you like FFVII and have never played FFVIII, try it. If you hate it, oh well. If you like it, yippee!
All other PSX games are really rather unlike FFVII altogether, sorry to disappoint you.

>>1697086
I don't necessarily mean games like ff7, i mean if i liked 7 what other game will i most likely like.
other final fantasies and cc excluded

>>1697080
>they had story arcs. Not development arcs.
Okay, I agree with that.

But how many games even have 15 individual character development arcs? Using SNES technology no less?

The biggest difference between FFIV and FFVI in terms of character development, IMO, is the FFIV "kills" its characters off once it's done with them. So they're not there to stick around and be exactly the same, because their arc ended with "And then he died/turned to stone/etc".

Terra we can agree has a strong arc. Celes is a significantly different person in the WoR. Kefka obviously develops as he becomes a God.

Locke's arc implies that he's changed considerably (though there's little dialogue to remind you of it after you recruit him back). Setzer similarly has a major character moment that implies that he's changed without reminding you. Shadow's dreams flesh out the mystery behind his demeanor without actually changing it -- that constitutes development IMO

I mean you're claiming that FFVII easily has better character development -- how many characters are even somewhat different at the end of disc 1 compared to disc 2?

I'm going off on tangents now. I just feel like you're demanding something from the game that would be near-impossible with the tech and wouldn't actually add that much to the game.

>>1697098
Tactics

>>1697098
Oh! Try Vagrant Story.

>>1697112
>But how many games even have 15 individual character development arcs? Using SNES technology no less?
None! That's my point! That's why I want a remake! Have you played Lunar SCD? And Lunar PSX? The PSX version took the barebones characters from the SCD one and gave them true development arcs (at the expense of gameplay [which is horrid in the remake] in comparison to its predecessor).
The characters actually developed a tad in the PSX version, something that they didn't/couldn't do in the original, possibly due to limitations of the technology at the time.
I always, always lament that CD, GD, DVD and BR media of today is focused more on graphical enhancements than on making an RPG with some length to it and stronger character development themes. We've the resources now. So what's holding developers back? Does no one want a game with more immersive story-telling and deeper character development? Does everyone really prefer realistic, life-like graphical enhancements over realistic, life-like character growth?

>>1697142
If your point was that you wanted a remake and that you knew that stronger character development couldn't have been achieved on the SNES, why did you get into a huge ass argument about whether the characters in FFVI were good? You could have just said you wanted a remake that added more stuff and this all could have been avoided.

Also, they are never going to do one anon. Square Enix only does things if it is profitable, and in their eyes an FFVI remake isn't profitable at all, even with all the praise and love it gets it doesn't draw in the mainstream crowd or the weeb crowd enough to make the money they'd want it to, and they know that. Besides, you know if they make it they'd ruin everything about it.

They'd make it more linear, make it even easier by putting in an auto-battle system, make the characters appeal more to the Kingdom Hearts and FFXIII crowd by redesigning them and making their personalities more anime-like. The backgrounds, monsters and just all art in general would get a horrible transition to 3D Oh, and there would have to be a tie-in with whatever new FF game is about to come out.

Like, we may get lucky if they bring it to 3DS or something, but even then Saeenix is bound to fuck up somehow.

>>1697429
>Saeenix

What am I reading?

>>1697429
>3ds remake
Yes, this is pretty much the only hope for an official remake. I'm not really impressed enough with the 3ds's graphics to even want that particularly. I did enjoy the ff4 remake but... it was still meh. I was just due for a replay and it was passable. Graphics were redone, but were still so bad they didn't really add anything to it. (I know that's DS, not 3ds)

We just had E3 and they still didn't announce it, and it's been years since the last remake so, it's probably not coming ever.

>>1697473
Shit, I meant Squeenix.

no other final fantasy has villains as based as the turks.

>>1697429
I said I wanted a remake. Right at the very start of the "argument" and a few times well into it. However, my posts, due to space limitations and the need to cover several bases at once, weren't terrifically clear. Besides all the changes to the engine of the game, I would like if the characters were better fleshed out. As I've said, FFVI has my favourite FF setting cuz I like steampunk and with a remake, could have the characters better fleshed out, deeper and more interesting. It has the roots to grow into a great game. As it is, however, it is merely a good game. A damned good game, mind you, but nonetheless only a good game and nothing more.

FF7 & 8 can't be played without being patched for win8 right ?

>>1697903
I really just want to leave this argumentI don't know why you put the word in quotations, what we and the anon from >>1697052 had WAS an argument as it is, I'm really tired of debating this with you, but god damn it I need to prove the(obvious) point that the characters of FFVI are fleshed out and interesting. Do all of them have deep, sweeping arcs of development? No, but do some core characters at least go through an arc where they change? Yes, they unarguably do.

First, I have to say that your idea of character development(as well as how it is presented) is extremely basic. You look at it as "Character X has Y thing happen, and once he overcomes it his personality changes into Z." In many cases that does happen, that is more or less the textbook definition and layman's idea of a character arc. However, that doesn't mean that that is the only way to show character development. Take for example Watchmen: in the book Dr. Manhattan goes through a character arc, he realizes that humanity isn't as bad or hopeless as he believed it to be, and returns to Earth. However, the way he acted on the outside didn't change, the way he interacted with everyone stayed the same, yet we know he grew as a character because he realized something that he didn't before and his actions changed in accordance with his new ideals. This is another way that character development can be presented; show that the character has changed subtly, without the help of dialogue or exposition. It shows that the reader(or player) is paying attention to the story and understands the characters well enough to know they have changed.

>>1697992
Coming back to FFVI, this technique is used throughout the entire game(mainly due to the aforementioned technical limitations). When you first meet Celes she is a strong-willed, prideful general whose one purpose is to fight on behalf of her country. Then, during and after the opera scene you realize that she doesn't see herself as only a general anymore, but also as someone who is talented in other fields, and can be something more than what she thought she could only be, and she begins to fall in love with Locke because of his support for her. You see, through interactions with other characters since meeting her you begin to understand Celes, you know that she is one thing, a warrior. Then this happens, and her interactions with others begin to change, if only slightly. You see that she is in fact changing, growing into something new, and by the end whenshe dives to get Locke's headband and their themes intertwine that she is a different character than how she started out, she grew. The same goes for Cyan, early in the story most of what he was was a man mourning the loss of his wife and child, however by the end he gets over his grief and learns to move on, and that is him growing as a person, overcoming his trials and tribulations in order to get on with life. As I stated before that is how people work in REAL LIFE, they don't overcome an obstacle and change immediately, they learn from their experience and slowly grow into someone that people who know them recognize and say “Man, he really has moved on.” It's up to you, the player who has more time than anyone with these characters, to recognize that they are different.

>>1697995
(cont.)
It's also fair to mention that FFVI isn't a game that hands things like this to you on a platter, alot of the smaller character moments(such as Cyan in the tavern, Gau's dad, or the Memento) have to be found by the player, and if you don't then you miss out on tons of small moments that can have a larger impact on the game as a whole. FFVI also relies on many music cues and the body language of the sprites to convey its message, it makes up for it's lack of space and technology in other ways, whether through changing a track or making the sprite move, and in my opinion that resonates much better with the player than a character just telling you how they feel.

Finally, as to your claim that characters aren't fleshed out, once again I have to say that your idea of what "fleshed out" means is wrong. Fleshed Out refers to the fact that the character has a personality and backstory, that you know the character well enough to identify them among the other members of the cast because you have been presented information about them. If the characters in FFVI weren't fleshed out, they'd basically just be the characters from FFI, no personality, no backstory, no empathy from the player whatsoever. Every character in FFVI you learn about, either through story events or if you find it yourself(the events I listed in >>1696540 are all examples of fleshing out characters). If you played the game and thought "damn, these characters really are boring and bland, they have no personality whatsoever" then you either didn't pay attention at all or are downright retarded.

Listen anon, you seem like a smart guy, you really do, but you are wrong. Maybe you should go back and replay the game, because it honestly does sounds like you didn't pay alot of attention to what was going on, or didn't explore the world enough.

>>1697098
I heartily recommend Suikoden II, even if the aesthetics and setting are the complete opposite of FFVII's.

>>1688634
Play FFVII OP, if you liked the classic FFs, you'll love this one too!

I don't know i liked IX better.
I think it's great.

>>1698071
I like IX better as well. VII is good as well, but I just prefer the more old-school feel that IX has.

>>1690020
FF9 is an dull game purely because the transition from overworld to battle takes forever and also the battle system is crap. In a game built around random battles, this is an issue.

I replayed it recently and got so sick of waiting around. The setting is great, shame it was ruined.

>>1698505
>FF9 is an dull game

*FF9 is a dull game

>>1698515
I'm laid on my back in the dark, give me a break man, it's a simple typo, just happened to be an 'n'. Thanks for proof reading it for me anyway.

>>1697992
That's not what character development is and if you got the impression that this is how I define it, you're rather mistaken, Anon.
I gave a good example in >>1697382 of deeper character development than the entire cast of FFVI (or any FF game 1-9, to be honest; dunno about 10-onward as I've never played any of them) could ever hope to do.

>>1698505
A valid criticism. Takes about 30 sec to enter a battle while the game pans the battlefield, which amounts to between 2.5-5 hrs waiting throughout the course of the game. Then you have lengthy spell and special attack animations. Square was too in love with gfx animations for FF8 and 9, and to a lesser extent 7 with summons.

It should take no longer than 5 sec to enter a battle and they could have cut down casting animations on both players and enemies. If they ever do a remake of these, I'd love to see an option to use full or shortened animations in battle.

>>1698959
>Characters needn't do a 180° to develop

But that is the entire point you've been trying to argue against since the beginning, this entire time you've been saying that a character needs to change outwardly in order to show that they have gone through a character arc. And if you don't know what I'm talking about(I have a sinking suspicion that is what you're going to say next), you fucking outlined your argument here >>1696479 by saying:

>Celes behaved, reacted and spoke identically before and after her arc.
>Locke behaved, reacted and spoke identically before and after his arc.
>Cyan behaved, reacted and spoke identically before and after his arc.
>Gau behaved, reacted and spoke identically before and after his arc.
>etc etc etc
>That's not development. At all. There was no change. They were the same characters before as well as after. They learned nothing from their stories.

And why the fuck are you suddenly linking me to a post In a completely different thread at that, I don't know why you expect me to know you've outlined or talked about anything outside of this thread? Plus, your example itself is stupid because the characters that do have development have the exact kind you just explained to the fucking tee, that is the development of nearly every character in FFVI with arcs, you literally just proved my point for me.

Ugh, I'm really tired of arguing this, I have a colossal headache from all this retardation. I honestly can't even tell if you are serious and are just backtracking because you can't think of a counter-argument(I also still assume you are the same guy because of your love for Lunar), or if I'm just being trolled.

Did anyone here play FFVII for the first time in the past couple years or so and enjoyed it?

I played and beat FFVI for the first time 2 years ago and enjoyed it. Just making sure nostalgia doesn't cloud judgment.

>>1699061
If they had that development, why have you been entirely unable to provide a single example? All you've told me is /how their stories progressed/, not /how their characters have developed/.
That's an enormous difference. Not a single character save Terra has any example of their feelings or attitudes changing along the story. None.

>>1699150
A couple of years ago a friend of mine in his early twenties played through FFVII for the first time, and he loved it. So it can't be all nostalgia.

>>1699061
Oh, and you even admitted that their stories progressed through a story arc but that a development arc /never actually occurred for any of the cast of FFVI/, you know.
See >>1697112.
>>they had story arcs. Not development arcs.
>Okay, I agree with that.

How do you concede that they lacked development only to argue that they had development? You even further acknowledged this shortcoming by rhetoric, asking:
>how many games even have 15 individual character development arcs?
wut

You even give a /reason/ why they lacked development, citing
>SNES technology
as the excuse.
All well and good. Limited rom space. Etc etc etc. I'd rather have a game with four, well-thought-out characters with well-thought-out story arcs and well-thought-out character arcs than 15 near-bare templates trying to be something they're not.

>>1690020
Comparing the storylines of 4 & 5, wasn't 5 more complex than 4?

>>1699150
No but if you look at it objectively. Its probably one of the best final fantasies.

Sure, it has shitty graphics. Yes, they are shitty. But the materia system lets you make anyone into anything, and allow you to transfer power from person to person because as much as you level up, your materia does too. It makes you make some choices about your gear, because you can customize your materia slots, linked slots, and growth rates. Combat is fairly standard ATB with some nuances, like some enemies needing long range to hit, or certain battle mechanics like Reno's Pyramid, although both are under utilized. The story is pretty campy early on, and gets a bit more serious, then gets kinda campy, and then serious at the end, its a nice way to pace things out. The mini-games are usually fun and interesting, and for the most part well designed. I think they had this in mind because almost all of them are replayable via the Gold Saucer. The sidequests and superbosses are generally fun to do and wrap your head around.

I'd give it a solid 8 or 9 without Nostalgia (assuming you like JRPG, if you don't its pretty much a 6 or 7), nostalgia would pump it up to an 11 or so which is why everyone gets into heated debates over it.

Why are people obsessed with "character development" in VI, whether they're attacking it or defending it? VI lacking character development was almost certainly a conscious choice; it was meant to be an ensemble cast, and the little character vignettes are there just to give them some personality, not to make them all deep and interesting characters. Trying to do that would have just bogged the game down.

>>1699181
Personally, the concept of 'anyone being able to do anything' turns me off on some RPGs, with the exception of job-changing games like 5/Tactics/BD. I guess it's because, it's easier for me to appreciate a character if their role is more set in stone. One prime example is Rydia from 4. Then you have characters like Edward who are defined by how silly their gimmick is.

>>1696125

-a terrible idiot, 2014

>>1699185
>Why are people obsessed with "character development" in VI

It's not just 6, it's regarding all jRPGs. People think it has to be there and if it's not, the game can't be good.

I could be wrong but I think it comes from how influencial and famous shonen are, which are entirely based on character development. That's how people see Japanese media the most so they expect it to be everywhere.

Now though, there really never was much character development in jRPGs up until the PS1 era.

Other reason why people are so obsessed with "character develpoment" is because they use the word for any characterization, whether there is development or not. So, really, they aren't really talking about development but how much screen-time the characters are given to flesh out themselves.

>>1699150

I started playing it just under a year ago and beat it two months ago. I got burned out a few times on disc 2 and skipped all the optional content but enjoyed it greatly nonetheless. I'm also playing more RPGs than I used to thanks to this game!

>>1699158
No, I outlined it very specifically and thoroughly here >>1697995 by explaining the arcs that both Celes and Cyan go through, how they LEARN and PROGRESS as characters, and although I really don't want to waste more time arguing with someone who very obviously has no idea what they are talking about, I'm going to go over this one more time, in the simplest way possible so that you can get it through your thick skull.

Celes:
>Begins as a prideful, honorable general who we learn has served the empire her whole life as a Runic Knight
>As she continues going through her story we see her change. During the Opera scene her actions and dialogue infer that she begins to realize that she can be more that just a soldier, as she claims that she "isn't some opera floozy" yet performs beautifully and is complimented by the other characters
>Her relationship with Locke, scenes of which are scattered throughout the game, becomes apparent and grows, even if in the beginning Celes brushes off any notions of love or affection
>During these scenes we see Celes lighten up, becoming less prideful and begins to open up to the rest of the party, namely Locke
>When she attempts to kill herself, but is saved when she sees Locke's bandana and she professes her drive to live and desire to see Locke and the others again through inner monologue, we know that she has finally opened up and admitted to her true feelings. This is also backed up by hers and Locke's themes coming together at the end of the game.

You see, she went from a prideful general who only knows what her duty dictates, to someone who is open with her feelings and knows she can be whatever she wants to be. If you paid attention than it's simple. Just because the Square wasn't able to fit in as much character development as you would have liked doesn't mean that there isn't any, you just have to care enough to see it.

>>1699203
A compelling argument, not.

>>1699175
>Oh, and you even admitted that their stories progressed through a story arc but that a development arc /never actually occurred for any of the cast of FFVI/, you know.

Wasn't me, different anon. He even said it wasn't me in this post >>1697052. Stop grasping at straws.

>>1699185
Square knew going into that they wouldn't be able to do arcs for every character, which if fine, not every character in a game needs a character arc, some are just fine the way they are.

But I'm arguing the fact that characters aside from Terra do have arcs, while the other anon is arguing that no one aside from Terra had an arc.

>>1699217
I know that personally I don't care what kind of characters are made in a JRPG, playing a game and liking it based solely on how good its characters are is silly. I'm trying to show this other anon the point that there is development and change in characters where he insists there isn't. And as for why so many people are insistent on it, it's more because the bar was set high during the SNES era for characters in JRPGs. Gamers thought "Man, Cecil/Faris/Robo/Terra/Celes/etc., is so cool! How are they ever going to top that?!" And because back then developers cared about their product, they went out of their way to produce better and better characters, and eventually JRPG fans got used to having deeper characters than what fans of other genres had, and were disappointed when they saw a character that didn't live up to their expectations.

>>1699240
>tells the character's story
>doesn't tell the character's feelings and how the character developed into those feelings from what occurred during his/her story
How are you unable to see the difference?

>>1699271
But Anon!! Those feelings were implied!!!
Hurpa derp.
No they weren't.
>Meet Celes, the depressed, disgraced and not at all prideful (where the fuck the other poster got 'prideful' from, I've not a clue) former general of the empire.
>Meet Celes, the still depressed, still disgraced and still not at all prideful member of the Returners.
>Meet Celes, the even still depressed, even still disgraced and even still not at all prideful identity thief and faux operatic star.
>Meet Celes, the continuingly depressed, low-self-esteemer who wants to kill herself at the end of the world.
>Meet Celes, the wholly unchanged, now silent character for the last quarter of the game.
Yup.

>>1699185
My point being is that I liked FFVI despite its overwhelming lack of character development. I say this several >>1696391 times >>1697080
in this thread >>1697903.
A game can be good without character development. It's not absolutely necessary. But saying that the game has it when it doesn't then citing story progression rather than character growth as examples is just... wrong. Wholly, purely and absolutely wrong.

>>1699262
>He even said he wasn't me
How am I supposed to know who is who without a tripcode, Anon?
Oh, and going back to the "argument" thing: I don't think this is an argument, per se, because I don't find myself getting heated about it. I don't quite know how to define "argument," really, but I know how I feel when I'm having one. I feel agitated/annoyed when I argue. I don't feel that way right now, to be honest.
I thought we were having a friendly discussion where we merely disagreed on a single point of a game that we both love.
You're muh buddy, buddy, even if we disagree on whether FFVI has character development or not. The fact that we can both discuss the game and remain relatively civil about it despite our difference of opinion means that I'd totally get together and go bowling with you after a couple beers or something.
It's all gravy, Anon. It's all gravy.

>>1699298
You also say you detest the characters for not having development, which is absolutely silly when you consider what the game is, and what it was trying to be. The characters in VI do exactly what they need to do, which is provide personalities over the backdrop of the story. That they are never developed is irrelevant.

>>1699271
I did. But if you really, REALLY are so retarded that you need it broken down even more, fine.

Celes starts out as a:
Prideful General whose only reason in life is her duty, and brushes off any idea of love or affection(after being hit on by Edgar)

Then she begins to develop. This happens by:
During the opera scene she is flustered by the notion of having to be an "opera floozy," yet she does it anyway, performs well and is complimented. We see a change in her at this time, as she begins to lighten up(this is evident during her cheating against Setzer). She also begins to show feelings for Locke, namely after they meet Rachel. She asks "Am I just a replacement for her?" and when Locke doesn't say anything she hangs her head in confusion of her feelings. This shows that she has changed from the cold-hearted general the player first saw, as she has realized she can be more than what she was brought up to believe she could be, and we the player notice this through these interactions

This arc culminates in:
On the island, after Cid dies Celes explains how living in a world without anyone(it is implied she means Locke more than anyone else). She talks about how she doesn't want to be alone and throws herself off a cliff. When she awakes she finds Locke's headband and that reignites her drive to find him and the rest of her friends. This shows that she has opened and that she now has a desire to be with the ones she cares about, a trait that wasn't evident in her earlier in the story. At Rachel's Rachel pushes her and Locke together, and Celes slyly admits to being in love with him. Finally, at Kefka's Tower, after asked what she has found in the world, she answers "I found someone who can accept me for what I am." This shows that she has fallen in love with Locke, and that her character is different from the one encountered earlier in the story.

There, now there is absolutely no way you can say that she didn't have a character arc.

>>1699329
I did use 'detest,' you're right. Apologies for my hyperbole, there but it was simply hyperbole. You know. Like when someone says something like 'I hate when pudding has skin on it!' Really, 'hate' is an inappropriate word here. I seriously doubt anyone hates pudding with skin on it but 'I am mildly to moderately annoyed when pudding has skin on it!' is too wordy and 'I don't like when pudding has skin on it,' not strong enough, so people say 'hate' and its synonyms instead. Simple hyperbole. And even if I actually did harbour undying odiousness towards the characters, I still several times that I very, very much like the game. From that fact alone, you should be able to infer, much as you infer supposed character progression in the game, that 'detest' was used in hyperbole.

>>1699315
An argument, by definition, is a discussion where two people present opposing views on something. Just because you aren't getting heated doesn't mean we having an argument.

>>1699346
That's nice but even if it was hyperbole it still means you "merely dislike" the characters for being exactly what they were supposed to be

also
>being this defensive
enhance your calm, anon

>>1699352
*aren't having an argument. Fuck, playing video games and writing novels on 4chan at the same time is fucking hard.

But do you see my point anon? Just because the SNES wasn't able to fit in as much development for the characters as you would want it to doesn't mean that there isn't any. It's there, you just have to look for it and judging by how insightful both of our arguments have been I gather that you are at least smart enough to see it(even if I do get the feeling you may just be trolling at this point)

Once again I recommend going back and replaying the game, maybe you'll see what I'm talking about then.

>>1699343
Not that other poster (I'm the guy you've been 'arguing' with not to whom you've responded), but she still winds up being exactly the same before as after, as though she picked up nothing from those experiences.
A good try, I admit, but ultimately flat. This. Is why. I want. A remake. To expand on that. To make her and the rest of the cast whole. To give her greater depth. I've said several times, FFVI has laid the groundwork for a truly amazing story, but ultimately writing for the characters themselves, for whatever reason, fell flat. They had minimal change, if any. FFVI had all the phenomenal world-building of Pratchett but the woefully poor character development of Salvatore.
That's all.

>>1699364

>>1699368
I see your point, sure. The game still mostly lacks character development. To say that it's subtle is fine and well and good but other games have done subtle developments as well. And in a far better manner. Like, as I've mentioned already, the PSX Lunar games.
Lemme make one thing clear, though: the Lunar games on Playstation? They're fucking terribad. Simply ghastly gaming experiences. Horrid, unfun, awful games. But that script, man... fantastically well-written, if a bit cliché. The exposition for Ghaleon I gave in the other thread isn't overt. It's subtle. Perhaps not as subtle as the development you claim is in FFVI, but subtle nonetheless.
It's not like the Robot Devil in Futurama.
>You can't just have your characters state how they feel! That makes me feel angry!
It's subtle. We see the progression through clever word choice and character behaviour more than what the character actually says.
Something I may have missed in FFVI, perhaps as I've not played it start to finish since... about... 1997 or so... but I've a fairly eidetic memory and don't recall any such subtleties and certainly don't remember Celes being remotely hardened and growing from there. I remember just that she began, continued to be and finished the story being very, very depressive.
If anything, your argument about Celes' prideful background might better be applied to Cyan, who was rather courtly at his introduction in Doma Castle, went through feelings of loss, depression, fear, loss again, anger and... back to his prideful/dutiful/courtly origins.

>>1699369
And in argument to that point I'd like make my final one: Just because technological limitations impeded the game from giving you what you thought would be best for the characters(I have to agree with this anon >>1699329 that most of the cast were never meant to have a development arc in the first place), does not mean that development was absent for the few characters that actually had an arc. Not having a personality change after an arc =/= equal no arc at all.

There are many different types of developmental arcs for characters, Cyan and Locke had arcs where they LEARN to let go of something in the past that haunts them, while Celes actively has an arc where her initial character CHANGES from one thing to another.

The way you are looking at this is one where you expect that these characters went through an arc where their personalities did a complete 180 after it finished, however not only is that the most default form a developmental arc, but also one that can't be applied to FFVI because none of the characters had an arc like that. Hell, even Terra doesn't go from an emotionless doll to a peppy, "We-can-do-it!" leader, her personality stays largely the same throughout, yet we know that she has changed because the game presents us with situations where we say "Man, she seems different than before!" And every character I listed, Celes, Locke, and Cyan are all different by the end of the game because you see them face their challenges and grow, and just because we aren't constantly reminded about it doesn't mean it didn't happen. When the game presents you these scenarios with characters you have spent such a long amount of time with, it is up to you to notice that they are different, and if you can't then either the game has failed(which everyone knows that FFVI does not fail in creating player empathy, or we wouldn't be here arguing this right now) or the player just doesn't care.

>>1699198
It makes sense in FF7's case because for the most part your party is fairly fluid throughout the game. You do various "arcs" with certain people being required in your party, so it makes sense that you should be able to seamlessly go from one area to the next while maintaining your parties power. Theres forced segments for.. lets see.

>Barret in North Corel
>Red XIII in Cosmo Canyon
>Aeris in Temple of the Ancients
Then its whatever for awhile and I think after the first visit to the Crater you need to use
>Barret and Cait Sith
Then you're forced into having Cid lead for awhile.

In the context of the game it makes sense to move your shit around. FF4 is different because your party members aren't permanent by any stretch until you hit the Cecil Kain Rydia Edge Rosa, so since party members are constantly changing its fine for them to come and go and be unique.

>>1699392
I'm not saying FFVI has the pinnacle in subtle story-telling or the greatest character development ever, but it does have it. My only word of advice, anon, is to go back and replay it all the way through(I recommend the GBA ROM that has the redone sound, color and the spliced translations, or just the GBA version if you don't like emulators), because what I said is there, and FFVI is a long game, and if you haven't played it since 1997 then anyone could be forgiven for forgetting.

In any case, I want to play Wind Waker and I think we've really just exhausted our arguments. I'll say that while a remake would be nice, Squeenix would fuck it up horribly and it wouldn't be worth it. Maybe one day I(or another fan) will make a ROMhack that adds some story/character stuff, but not anytime soon. In any case anon, I'm done. If I haven't convinced you by now I probably never will. I'd like to say that you presented a good argument sir, one I had to really think about, and I hope one day we can see eye-to-eye on this.

>>1699437
>/vr/ continues to be the best video game board.

Will the ride ever end? It's even summer time.

>>1699464
Summerfags don't come here, most of them have probably never even held an NES controller and are too busy shitposting on /v/, talking about social rights on /co/ and just being fags on /b/ to even know there is a /vr/. Be thankful we aren't popular anon, because I'd rather have the slow-paced monotony we have here over the cancer that permeates the other boards.

>>1690075
Ultima is fucking garbage and is appropriately deader than Jimmy Hoffa.

>>1699437
Different anon here.

If you look to RPGs for the story, then the last third of FF6 will disappoint you. In order to allow the player the freedom to take virtually any party to explore the world in virtually any order means that there is very little room to add storytelling. You get a couple mins when you regain the characters and that's it really.

Personally, I think that the characters are unique enough and I much prefer the world-is-your-oyster approach to exploring than having the game hold your hand through it until you get to the final dungeon/area. In other words, I prefer adventure freedom over whatever poorly written story (and they are all poorly written compared to other media) a video game company might try to force feed me. The open ended nature of FF6 is what won me over.

I think the cookie cutter criticism is a little overblown and only comes into play if you grind up to level 60+ with esper bonuses and teach everyone ultima. On a level 40-50 game I find myself using a lot of special skills over magic except for the dedicated casters - Terra, Celes, Relm, and Strago, especially if you don't spend hours in the fanatics tower to teach everyone all the spells.

Also, you have to consider the tech that was used to make the game. In lieu of what FF8/9 did, 7 is rather technically unimpressive... It feels like a slightly upgraded FF6. IIRC it started development for Nintendo until Nintendo balked at using CDs on its next system, which prompted Sony (who was contracted to make the guts for Nintendo) to enter the VG market and take Square with them, so that's why FF7 is barely next-gen.

>>1696391
>I detest the characters which had little to no development in comparison to characters in other FF games

OK, in comparison to other FF games, sure. But they had background stories for all 10+ main characters (?!?!) and you got to see each one of them change when collecting them back in the WoR. Honestly, out of all FF games, I think this game has some of the best character development, not for depth, but definitely breadth, which is unique.

>>1699298
>But saying that the game has it when it doesn't then citing story progression rather than character growth as examples is just... wrong.

MOST of the vignettes had nothing to do with the story progression. They didn't have to explain jack shit about Cyan, Strago/Relm, Gau, Sabin/Edgar, or Setzer and the main plot with Terra and Locke and Celes is still there. The story would end the same. You just would have played the game with a whole team of fighters like Mog, Gogo, and Umaro. (Wow, weren't THEY filled with personality!)

Yes, they DID have character development, which did NOT have anything to do with the STORY PROGRESSION. You.... are wrong.

>>1703967
FF6 had more character development than any game up to its release. Before FF4 (which only develops Cecil and Kain as defined in this debate), character development didn't exist in RPGs. You got a backstory and plopped into a world to explore.

>>1704868
how dare you put context into this shitfest

>>1688634
my favorite is ff6 too
i found 7 lacking in depth and while it had different characters, the materia system meant that essentially all character could do exactly the same things.
also the depth of characters in 6 is way better. and their backstories a little more subtle

wow, making a FFVII thread is a surefire 200+ posts with a minimal amount of effort, isnt it?

>>1699343

Celes is basically a less attractive Beatrix from FF9

>>1704868
>character development didn't exist in RPGs
Phantasy Star

>>1705154

It's a shame 4chan doesn't have le karma system

It's alright. I've never been a huge fan of the series, though. I like 9 more, which is probably heresy or something. Final Fantasy is the series that earned Square its bread, but it was not their best work.

>>1705461
>but it was not their best work

Don't leave us hanging, anon.

>>1705463
I dunno, I always felt Chrono Trigger, Secret of Evermore and Bushido Blade were much better games. Fuck, I would kill a man for another Bushido Blade.

>>1705468
>tfw forgot Xenogears and the Front Mission games

>>1705457
First, Phantasy Star didn't have character development as defined by the contrarian to FF6's character development in this silly debate.

Second, outside of the intro sequence when Alis's father is killed, you don't get any character development at all. You collect your friends, find Laconia items, and kill Lassic -- essentially the same as the last 1/3 of FF6.

tomb raider had decent character development

For me it's the best 3D Final Fantasy. It didn't surprise me at first contact because I got into it after I played IV, VI, VIII, IX and X, but the system was just the most fun to play for me and the story was, to my eyes, the most serious and believable. Though if your favorite yet is VI, I don't think VII is gonna change your life or anything.

>>1693563
>I think a lot of 7's popularity comes from the fact that it was a lot of people's first intro to RPG's

Jesus fucking christ. Hasn't this trite argument been debunked to hell already? Honestly, I'm sure a lot of people have played VI before VII and prefer VII even then. Such as myself.

>>1704868
>character development didn't exist in RPGs before FFVI
Typical FFVI fan over-glorifying his favorite JRPG and then over-amplifying its lasting effect on the vidya industry.

>>1704000
>backstory = character development
You are dumb. So very, very dumb.

People only like this game because it's all magitechy and futurey

>>1705516

In Europe, we only got FF Mystic Quest, then FF7,

It was my first real FF.. Yes, I do love it.

>>1705516
most people i know played 7 as their first rpg
i was 2kool and played legend of the 7 stars as my first rpg

>>1705554
Wait, are you talking about FF6?

>>1705526
So what game(s) pre 1994 had character development as defined in this thread for more than three characters (Terra, Celes, Locke)?

I just think this is a silly criteria on which to judge a game from that era as no game could live up to those expectations.

What makes 6 better than 7 to me is that I can clearly find a list of things that were copy+pasted from 6 to 7 or things that took a step backward. Meanwhile 6 improved on 4 in every way.

>>1706235
>So what game(s) pre 1994 had character development as defined in this thread for more than three characters (Terra, Celes, Locke)?

Illusion of Gaia.

>>1706462
Released at practically the same time as FF6 and was criticized for being very linear - - and rightly so. Illusion of Gaia was more an action adventure game than an RPG and comparing it to FF6 (or even Zelda: LttP, its closer relative) is apples and oranges.

>>1706235
Chrono Trigger? (Frog, Robo, Lucca)

>>1706576
He was talking about character development and not gameplay to be fair.

>>1706576
It fulfilled all the stipulations he asked for. Released earlier (a year prior) and had significant character development on multiple characters. Gameplay or quality of story were not stipulations, the point was that FF6 wasn't the first game to introduce character depth in RPGs on that scale, and Illusion of Gaia was hardly the first either.

>>1706609
That was released a little less than a year later. Granted, it was in development and the plot was laid out before FF6 (it was more a parallel to FF4 and had the in-game nods to that effect), but *technically* it was still after FF6.

A point that any obnoxious FF6 fanboy will shrilly correct you on.

>>1705470
It's easy to forget some of SE's other games when today all they push out is FF and Dragon Quest games that they don't localize.

>>1706705
ah, I had no idea and always assumed that CT was relesed first, thanks for correcting me

>>1706702
Illusion of Gaia was released Sept 1994; FF6 Oct 1994.

So no, it fails the pre 1994 stipulation.

It also arguably doesn't contain the ridiculously narrowly defined version of character development. Which 3 characters have a revolutionary change in personality?

>>1699494
I agree with the both of you.
Also adding to the monotonous idea you mentioned, it gets alittle annoying how we've exhausted all the retro topics.
I feel like the Moot should do a test run and allow one more console from the Dreamcast's era. Like:
>GBA allowed for a month
>see how board activity resonates with the idea
>if it actually brings cool dicussion like now keep it
>if it's pure shit posting ditch it
/vr/ is my favorite board but if sure gets boring around here.

>>1688690
This. The whole atmosphere completely changes after Midgar. It's like being in a dream then suddenly getting cold water splashed on your face.

It also seemed to me that Square had a hard time deciding between scifi and medieval fantasy.

>>1706906
We get away with posting about remakes alot on this board, especially in FF threads. But that is a good idea anon, I just wish moot would get off his lazy ass and listen to suggestions from real users and not /b/tards and summerfags. It would be cool to talk about the GBA, and maybe even the Dreamcast. I feel like those are retro enough to warrant an addition to the board.

>>1706931
>maybe even the Dreamcast

The Dreamcast has been allowed for a while now. Ever since the 8th gen launched.

>>1706931
Really? Damn, I didn't even notice! I guess that speaks for the variety of topics we have here.

>>1706931
Yeah, it's a pain since seems to pay more attention to those boards. Being that they happen to be some of the worst boards on the site.
I really wish they'd try my idea though, like a toe dip in pool wager you know?
I remember when the DC was first allowed it was a week of arguing but then everyone got down to chatting.
I feel like the board would massively improve if he did this with the rest of the 6th gen.
It'd be perfect if he made the full 6th gen the final cut off with no additional consoles.
I can dream.

>>1706939
Fuck, I meant >>1706947 for >>1706939

It's too late for this shit.

I liked FF7. I feel it's overrated because of the time it came out, but it's actually pretty solid. I like the atmosphere of the world(especially Midgar) more than anything else.(Music is good too)

>>1706808

No, IoG was released November 1993. FF6 April 1994. Twist and moan about worldwide release dates all you want, but just because it didn't get to YOU until September of the next year doesn't mean it wasn't released earlier.

As far as which characters, Will, Kara, Lily, Seth, Neil... hell, any of the main characters. The game was as much a story about their gradual loss of innocence and maturation as the apocalyptic backdrop.

But seriously, you FF6 fanboys will just jump through whatever hoops to argue that that game not only was the best thing since sliced bread, it was sliced bread before sliced bread.

>>1705516
Lots of people I knew grewing up had FF7 as their first RPG, as well as first FF game. And they're all big fanboys of it.

So, yeah, it was a LOT of peoples first RPG.
That's why people say that, and that's why it has an insane amount of fanboys.
Kind of like people with the Zelda games.
Or other very popular series. More times than not, they will love the game they started with the most.
Hell, Final Fantasy 2 on the SNES was my first RPG, and to this day it's still my favourite, and it always will be.

Now you see?

>>1707195
7 was my first and influenced me surely, but it led me to my favorite in FFIX

Midgar part was truly mind blowing, the rest is OK...

>>1707195
Lots of people were no strangers to rpgs and still loved the game. All the games reviewers that gave it high scores and rave reviews who have played more games than you and me put together. One of the reasons it has such a reputation was because of the hype from reviews and the ad campaign and the subsequent success and high sales.

Either way your 'first rpg' argument holds no more weight than saying people who claim FF7 is overrated are special snowflakes trying to be different. There might be truth in both but they come from the minority who tend to be the loudest and most obnoxious.

>>1707310
Minorities always are.

>>1705516

...FF7 was literally the first fucking videogame some people played at the time.

Were you around when the game was being promoted in the US? I bet you fucking didn't

>>1696262

...I am refusing to believe this post was made

>>1705516
>being this ignorant

FF7 made RPG's a mainstream genre in the west. It was the first RPG for hundreds of thousands of people.

>>1707396
It's like Ultima never existed.

>>1707172
This is an English board; I don't speak Japanese and I clearly wasn't referring to Japanese release. The earliest I could have played either game is Fall 1994.

>>1707413
Ultima was never mainstream.

>>1706702
Apparently you're too stupid to understand the context of the conversation, so allow me to be more specific:

Name an RPG released in NA prior to 1994 that had the ridiculous definition of character development being debated in this thread.

Not that IOG was a bad game in its own right, but it's clearly not the same genre as FF6.

>>1707172
See above. Also, they don't fit the ridiculous definition of character development. The characters don't drastically change personalities as required by the guy arguing above.

Also, while I think that FF6 is the best FF game in the series, I don't think it's the best thing ever. But criticizing FF6 for not having some narrow definition of character development when it didn't exist at the time is the same as criticizing it for not having 3D FMV sequences with voice acting. It was technologically infeasible to do it given the scope of the adventure and the amount of characters in the game.

People like you calling for deep character development are why Square had to reduce the characters in subsequent releases, and the series has been worse off for it ever since. If you want to read a good story, pick up a book; you're not going to find it in a video game.

>>1707578
...
No one says they need to change drastically. Just change. The only character in FFVI that changed at all was Terra.
>...b...but... muh Celes!!!
No. She didn't change. She was the same, miserable woe-is-me cunt at her introduction as she was during her part as temporary protagonist as she was at game's end. If the character's story progresses and absolutely nothing about their countenance has changed, they haven't developed.

Think about... coming-of-age stories. The characters in such a tale grow both in the emotional and physical sense and show development from a child-mentality to an adolescent-mentality to an adult-mentality.
Another example of development is 'moral decay,' which is amongst the oldest forms of character development narratives used in literature, the antithesis to which might be called something like 'moral fortification,' or something.
The Lunar examples given in that other thread detail Ghaleon's moral decay. That's how his character developed. Backstory is all well and good, but there's a difference between character exposition and character development. Batman's parents got killed, yeah? So his response is to become a crimefighter. This is character exposition. His changes after his parents' murder and up to his donning a mask, which have seldom been explored, would be the character development. Batman might be an example of moral fortitude, if such a term exists.

A more contemporary example of the moral decay character development process would be Walter White of Breaking Bad and of moral fortitude would be Sarah Manning of Orphan Black. The characters still stay true to their base personalities but develop (there's that pesky word again!) different emotions and mental outlooks as their stories progress.

Not a single character of FFVI other than Terra develops at all. Not. A. One.

Do you see the difference or still no?

>>1707613
> Expects video games to have deep characters found in other media.

Please, just stop. Your standard for character development in a 1994 RPG is ridiculous. Period. You're now comparing a game to a comic book character who was developed over hundreds of issues.

The majority of the characters in FF6 have a unique story that conveys to the player why they have an axe to grind with the Empire. They grow throughout the plot. The ones that aren't very developed are Relm, Strago, Mog, and the bonus characters, but again considering the scope of the game I hardly think it's a fair criticism that the game could *only* fully develop (by normal standards, not yours) 7 charactors.

Your definition of character development requires that they have a noticeable change. The rest of the world disagrees with that definition.

> Lunar
I haven't played this game, so I have no idea if what you're saying even holds water. Still if this is the ONLY example of an RPG with character development as you defined it, perhaps you can see that your definition is off. Or just go play Lunar and stop trolling the FF7 thread.

>>1706981
FF7 is a decent game, I just think that it lost a lot of its thunder once the player left Midgar and went on a cat-and-mouse chase for Sephiroth. But I also thought the Midgar plotline was a ripoff of FF6 put into a more modern setting with an environmentalist overtone.

It's almost like the game didn't know what it wanted to be:

> Disk 1: You're revolting against evil corporate overlords sucking the world of its resources and keeping the masses in poverty

> Disk 2/3: Let's kill this evil Sephiroth super-soldier guy.

>>1707310
> All game reviewers...

Aw, that's cute. You think game reviewers who write for magazines (which is all that existed at the time) are actually honest and not just paid advertisers.

>>1707826
You're getting story progression and character exposition confused with character development.

Those tangents with Locke and Rachel are exposition. They're not development. Locke is the same before as well as after.

That entire tangent with Sabin and Duncan is exposition. It's not development. Sabin is the same before as well as after.

That entire tangent with Shadow and his dreams is exposition. It's not development. Shadow is the same before as well as after.

That entire tangent with Cyan and the dream is exposition. It's not development. Cyan is the same before as well as after.

That part of the story with Setzer and Daryl's airship is exposition. It's not development. Setzer is the same before as well as after.

That entire tangent with Gau and his father is exposition. It's not development. Gau is the same before as well as after.

Edgar has roughly... 1 minute of dialogue of exposition and absolutely nothing on development.

That relationship with Celes and Locke is mostly exposition with a little development. The relationship hasn't much progressed by game's end.

The only character to make any change at all is Terra.

I do hope you understand what the difference is between exposition and development. Exposition is an explanation of why a character is a certain way. Development is the process of how a character changes over time.

>>1707578
>Apparently you're too stupid to understand the context of the conversation, so allow me to be more specific:

Right.

>If a game didn't exist in North America, it didn't exist anywhere
>FF6 was the FRIST!!!

Fanboying this damn hard.

I don't think order of play affects my ranking for favorite Final Fantasy games.

I played them as follows (excluding Tactics, Mystic Quest, etc):

4, 6, 7, 8, 9, 5, 10, 12, 1, 2, 13.

My favorites run:

7, 8, 4, 5, 6, 9, 12, 2, 1, 10, 13.

Almost no correlation to play order.

>>1707860
Character development is cloud.
He was a manly man
Then he dressed like a female and got gangraped by a gym
He was never the same again, he started a sissy tumblr and that became his life

>>1707989
I appreciate the humour, but you've touched a good point: the cast of FFVII have some rather strong character development, TVism and possible buggery aside, even if I really rather dislike that game.

>>1707860
fuck, you are depressing.

>>1708001
>depressing
That's an odd way to spell 'right.' Very odd indeed.

>>1708019

Not him, but that's also a very odd way of spelling 'arrogant about shit that doesn't matter at all'.

>>1708034
Cry more.

>>1707998
my point was that cloud becoming a transsexual was the deepest character development and that's what gives you a boner.
Therefore cloud getting buttfucked gives you a boner.

>>1708114

Final Fantasy VII is iconic. You can't be a Final Fantasy fan without having played it at least once.

>>1705569
>>1705572
>>1707195
>>1707390
>>1707396
>mfw
>implying people's favorite games are the first ones they play
>implying all the FFVII fanbois had FFVII as their first JRPG during the late 90s
Then Pajama Sam must be most people's favorite vidya. And that also must mean all the VII fanboys are in their late 20s. At least that means they'll be dying out soon. And the kids who got Big Rigs and ET for Christmas as their first vidya must love it, since it's their, duh, first vidya.

For shame, the amount of flame one gets just for trying to defend FFVII's credibility.

>>1708749
>Pajama Sam
That, or Reader Rabbit. Or Zoombinis. Or Jumpstart. Who knew the edutainment genre would grasp onto the youth's minds and never let go. No wonder it is the most popular genre as it was the first one many played in elementary school computer labs. FFVII is nothing compared to children's games.

Obviously, all the good review scores FFVII got during its initial run was due to the reviewers not having played a JRPG before.

I'm going to warp a child's mind by giving him Superman 64, Action 52, and Bubsy as his first vidyas, so he'll love those games and thus alienate himself from society.

For the love of cluck, FFVII being popular because it's everyone's first JRPG is bloody retarded.

seven is actually the only one that I never finished

it lost what made the old ones good

and visually its just an abomination

in the old days I thought it was lazy and incomplete to have so many backgrounds as jpgs

and of course now it looks like total ass

8 and 9 had problems too but I made it through to the end, just so I wouldn't get left behind