/vr/ - Retro Games

I only learned recently that TFC was a Valve game from the very beginning. I always thought I was playing an independent mod as a kid, but that explains why it was so polished for such an early Half-Life mod.

If there's one thing that Valve has my respect for it's their nurturing of the mod scene. I hope we see the same level of mod tools for Source 2 because every other developer/publisher has seemingly stopped giving a shit.

>>1643076
>always a valve thing
It was an independent mod at first, but Valve hired the modders before they finished it, I think
It definitely wasn't always valve

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltI8ydSIojE

>>1643319
I wonder if it's possible to customize your characters to look like they did in TFC. Not talking about mods, I'm talking about cosmetic items. I know that the heavy can look like that (aside from sideburns, but not a problem since TFC heavy didn't have them), just wondering for the other classes.

>>1644832
Check out the TF2 workshop, there've been plenty of cosmetic items that are based on TFC, a lot of them are also certified as compatible.

So, if TFC officially took place in the 1930's, then why did everything look so advanced? I mean hell, it looks like they were taken from the future. Or does Team Fortress have the DEEPEST LORE?

>>1646434
Just Valve goofiness. They had to place it sometime before tf2 in the canon.

Who is the best Team Fortress character (in every game), and why is it the Spy?

>>1646434
Retcons and Australium.

>>1643306
It was originally a Quake mod. It was done. The Classic version came when Valve hired the team. The original work on TF2 began in 1999, but was completely in the wrong direction, and basically, everything was thrown out in 2005 in favor of the cartoonish style.

I've been playing since the beginning. Pyro was basically always useless until TF2.

>>1646521
The black & team color designs just look so good. One reason I tried fortress forever but couldn't take it seriously is because of the gaudy hazmat costumes the classes have.

>>1646546
>Pyro was basically always useless until TF2.
It was pretty useless until the airblast, too.

>>1646568
You had to spam all your napalm outside of a spawn to do anything.

Bonus if a spy threw all his magic dust at the spawn door, too.

>>1646546
>>1646568

Is that the reason why Pyros are often accused of being the "W+M1" class? Because they were only effective if they stalked you and kept trying to burn you?

>>1646563
>couldn't take [Fortress Forever] seriously is because of the gaudy hazmat costumes the classes have

I think that's part of the charm, it looks like a cheesy late 90's/early 2000's FPS. Considering it was meant to be "TFC: Source Edition", it makes sense.

Question: Was the Spy always a dangerous character, or that wasn't the case until TF2? Was the Spy always a direct hard counter to the Engineer like in TF2?

>>1646616
>Was the class that can disguise as enemy players and make you explode into meatloaf with a melee weapon always a dangerous character?
Yes, but less so in TFC. Feigning was a lot less effective than cloaking, but it could still work if you pulled it off. Disguising as a class from your own team is a better tactic in both games.

>>1646616
Dangerous, yes. He didn't have any sappers though, that's only in tf2. He had disguising and feigning death.

>>1646708
In Fortress Forever, he can sabotage buildings. Could he do that in TFC, or he wasn't as much of an Engineer counter?

And speaking of FF, FF gives me the impression that the Engineer's guns aren't actually all that strong. You could probably kill scouts reliably, but a heavy could outlive it and blow it up. What warranted the Sentry to be buffed in TF2?

>>1646863
Spy wasn't really an Engy counter. He couldn't cloak either.

>throwing an EMP grenade into a cluster of enemy players
Good times.

>>1647250
Medic player here. EMPs are the bane of my existence.

>>1647253
Gotta go fast. You can't be blown up if you can't be caught. Concussion jumping was so much fun.
>see enemy medic on their battlements in 2fort
>prime a concussion grenade
>they conc jump over
>send them flying back halfway across the map dazed as hell, into the water they go
>jump in, blast the fuck out of them

Maps were a million times better in team fortress classic. Was 2fort the only one that made it into tf2.

>>1646616
>>1646695
>>1646708
Spy was a big Heavy and Sniper counter in TFC. He could be an engineer counter, because he had grenades. Just sneak in to the base and then spam grenades at his little base and he'd die along with it if you landed them right.

Oh, and properly landed hallucination grenades were fucking hilarious. You could run around and backstab entire groups if you confused them properly.

TFC spy was some seriously fun stuff and required a lot of patience and map know how (TF2 spy is much the same, but with a different toolset so they play quite a bit differently, though their goals are the same). You had to use a lot of physical cover to hide behind, use disguises properly (don't disguise yourself as a class that currently only has 1 player, because if anybody sees you after immediately having seen that other one, they'll know if they've paid attention to who is playing what). Feign death is really useful for waiting in a spot, because you can feign and people tend to pass you up, or you can use feign to hide behind stuff as though you were prone.

For the most part, TFC spy was a dirty affair. Unlike TF2, where you get range with the revolver (or basically snipe with the Ambassador), you tend to kill very closely as a TFC spy. Unlike TF2, most of my kills in TFC as a spy were surprise headshots with the shotgun. The knife was mostly for heavies, snipers, and certain surprise attacks.

Some stuff about the spy in QTF/TFC:

The spy had four explosive grenades, and destroying a lvl 3 sentry required two. Resupplying in the enemy base was usually not possible. You had to think about when and where to use them. They could also be used to make grenade jumps, which cost most of your health but allowed you to bypass enemy defenses. Cooking grenades was also possible, with the appropriate scripts.

Disguises were more important because there was no cloaking*, and it was more difficult to detect spies. Friendly fire was on, and you couldn't pass through either friendly or enemy players. In TF2 you can spray away at teammates as much as you like, and simply bumping into them will instantly reveal spies. In QTF/TFC you had to fire into the air when approaching defenders to let them know you were friendly. If you didn't, they would attack you until you either complied or died. Disguises also didn't slow you down to the speed appropriate for the class, so you had to write scripts for that.

Feigning death did what it implies, but you had to be clever about it. I had a script that simultaneously discarded my extra ammo, which produced the same effect as a normal death, except there was no death message. But mostly I used feigning to hide in plain sight or behind obstacles, or in shadowy corners (in QTF, which had very deep shadows).

Tranquilizer darts significantly slowed down the enemy, but they weren't very easy to use (slow projectile speed, slow fire rate). I found a novel application for them in the map rock2. There was an underground passage to the enemy base with a deadly chasm that you had to leap over, and at the end of the passage was a pile of rubble. I feigned death behind the rubble, waited for an enemy to come along, then popped up and tranquilized him just as he jumped over the chasm. This slowed him down enough to make him fall to his death.

* QTF had a setting to switch disguises with partial invisibility, but I never saw it used anywhere.

>>1647392
Spying in TF2 is miserable because it's impossible to make effective use of disguises, it's very difficult to avoid bumping into players because of the extremely cramped and restrictive level design), pyros can just go around spraying fire at anything and everything because there's no downside to doing so, and sabotage seems like it was designed to be as irritating as possible. Engineers telepathically sense when sabotage is occuring and then let everyone within earshot know about it too. Trying to sabotage with an engineer present turns into a ludicrous game of wack-a-mole that you'll probably lose, and taking out the engineer with a backstab before sabotage will get you shot by the sentry unless you do it flawlessly. But you can't just hang around and wait for the right moment, because you'll inevitably bump into someone or a pyro will randomly spray you.

The TF2 spy is mostly about impressing YouTube viewers with epic backstab killstreaks. It's not the thinking man's class it once was.

Fortress Forever got it right though, and made the class even better than it was.

>>1647397
lrn 2 press 2 after the stab pleb.

I wish more people would play this rather than TF2.

>>1647397
Disguise as friendly players with the dead ringer instead. Take a couple of hits and drop when appropriate.

>>1648149
There's three reasons why TF2 is more popular. It's free, the characters are colorful and say funny things, and it looks better than TFC. Say what you want, but I really like how expressive the characters are, with their own quirks.

>demoman will never get the detpack back.
>You will never floor noobs by setting it to a different time than the default key binding.

>>1648730
At least they were able to accurately keep one of the Demoman's most annoying habits in TF2.

>>1648171
Thats the problem. Dead ringer is a gimmick that make Spy not shit. The only reason to use spy is a wild card in competitive, otherwise he is countered by so many things.

>>1648775
I remember reading in an interview, one of the people (I think it was Walker) mentioned that they were surprised with how high the adoption rate for the Dead Ringer was, and want to create more "dead ringers" for the other classes. The Medic has the Ubersaw, while everyone else has highly situational weapons or have been nerfed to hell (Tomislav used to wind up 60% faster, now it's just 10%, Equalizer boosted both speed and power when low on health, this effect has been split in two weapons). Also

>playing TF2 competitively

>>1648793
Correction: Tomislav used to spin up 75% faster, then they nerfed it to 40%, and then they nerfed it to 10%.

>>1646527

>Australium

Oh. That actually fixes it up nicely.

Queston, was TFC always called "Team Fortress Classic", or was the Classic only added to distinguish it from TF2?

>>1649304
Funny story, it started as TFC but was renamed "Team Fortress 1.5" for a brief period when Valve was developing the original TF2:BoA.

>>1649304
Deathmatch Classic and Team Fortress Classic and were Half-Life versions of Quake 1 and Team Fortress for Quake 1, respectively

>>1648146
>pleb
I started playing Team Fortress before much of its current player base was potty trained. Or born.

>>1650515
The sad thing is that isn't a very difficult task to accomplish even if you only just started playing when 2 was released in 2007.

reinstalling.
LSD is annoying.
pyro is useless.
concjumping is fun.
detpack is exilarating.
the dispenser is a good bomb.
AIDS are OP.

>>1651210
holy fuck you make me wanna play so bad, detpacks were too awesome and giving people aids was the best too!

I offer a free copy of Team Fortress Classic on Steam to he who knows the secret cypher!

I have a free copy of Team Fortress Classic on Steam for he who recites the secret cypher!

>>1651274
EXCUSE ME, I'M IN NEED OF MEDICAL ATTENTION

>>1651280
no? that wasn't it?
what about u↑↑↓↓←→←→ BA START
oh, and my id is drmonreno

>>1651289
>>1651280
no

>>1651274
This cipher?

>>1647397
>implying

I mained spy in TF2 since it came out and regularly had the most points on servers I visited. Spying in TF2 was an art and you just needed to git gud.

Disguising isn't just about throwing on a fucking disguise, its about acting like the enemy. If you move against the flow of traffic, yeah you'll get spotted. Its about watching enemies and what they're doing and then imitating them.

Also, you have to git gud at matador stabs, clutch sidestabs, stair stabs, etc. Then you need to git gud at the revolver and how it does its accuracy. Also, the way to take out engineers is to use their building placement against them, such as sapping their turret (But not their dispenser), then hiding behind the dispenser and popping your head up so the turret shoots back at you, but if the engineer is between you he dies.

TF2 spying is insanely effective if you know what you're doing, though certain maps or team comps make it much harder if you're not coordinating with your team.

>>1643054
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltI8ydSIojE
MEHDIK

>>1646568

He's still useless. A close-ranged class in a game about chokepoints and spike damage is a recipe for a failure as a class.

>>1651339
>Spying in TF2 was an art and you just needed to git gud.
Why do you TF2 kids always think you're so much more experienced and knowledgeable than someone who started playing TF in the 90s?

>Disguising isn't just about throwing on a fucking disguise, its about acting like the enemy. If you move against the flow of traffic, yeah you'll get spotted. Its about watching enemies and what they're doing and then imitating them.
Thanks, I sure hadn't figured that out during all the years I spent playing TF without being able to rely on cloaking.

In QTF/TFC it's actually possible to act like the enemy, but in TF2 you're busted the second you brush up against someone. If you avoid contact, that's very suspicious behavior, and even if you don't bump into anyone and nobody thinks it's suspicious that you're just standing in the corner staring at everyone, a random driveby from a Pyro can still end you.

>Also, you have to git gud at matador stabs, clutch sidestabs, stair stabs, etc. Then you need to git gud at the revolver and how it does its accuracy. Also, the way to take out engineers is to use their building placement against them, such as sapping their turret (But not their dispenser), then hiding behind the dispenser and popping your head up so the turret shoots back at you, but if the engineer is between you he dies.
The fact that a player needs to master various things to effectively play as a spy in TF2 doesn't make the class any less shitty.

>>1651624
If you play the game enough, you can hit players 80% of the time with the ambassador from a good distance.
Seeing as it takes away 102 health, most classes just run away after that point.

>>1651932
This works really good against heavies, especially if they have their gun wound up and are in a room. Just pop in, shoot them, and run away from them, and continue doing this until they're dead. The heavy's biggest weakness is his speed and none of his weapons can deal with ranged attackers very well.

No matter how hard I try I cannot make sense of this game, it's just nonstop explosions and inexplicable deaths whenever I play. How can I git gud?

>>1652971
Pay attention to the kill feed, adjust your mouse sensitivity, bind the grenade keys to more comfortable places for your fingers to reach, read the TFC articles on the TF2 wiki, and do your research.
Also, try playing Half-life 1 to get used to its and TFC's physics.

>>1653148
Thanks, I think my biggest problem was being too used to TF2 physics. And the mouse sensitivity just feels different no matter what I set it to. Just need to give it time I guess.

>>1653159
Regarding the mouse sensitivity, if for example your mouse sensitivity for source games is 5.00, the closest equivalent to it for goldsrc would be 10.0

>>1643054
Don't mind me, just dumping my TFC folder.

>>1643054
TFC Engineer always looked like Al pacino to me.

Anyone new to the thread at a later date, TF Can best be described as TF2, but with grenades and all the cancer taken out.
There's also better physics.

NeoTF was the best mod ever omg that game was insane. Being a soldier and flying a drone around was too damn good.

So why does nobody play FF?

>>1653237
The thing I love about TF2 is the characterization. It's just amazing to hear the heavy say "ALL OF YOU ARE DEAD" after mowing down everybody. I'm surprised no one has made a mod, or rather custom game mode, that made TF2 play more like TFC. That would be awesome.

>>1653237
That's such a super inaccurate description of TF.

>Spies can't cloak. Gain Feign Death
>Medics can damage enemies with the medpack also that shit is busted as fuck. Does way too much damage.
>Spies have the most amazing grenade
>Scouts have a nailgun instead of a scattergun
>lots of other weapon changes that I can't remember
>maps are in general larger because everyone can do explosive jumps
blah blah blah. The two are really different games. Saying "TF is just TF2 with grenades and no items!" is such a fucking lie.

>>1653694
I'm downloading it now. I never did Rocket Jumping in TFC so I hope what I learned in TF2 carries over a bit.

>>1653237
Conversely, TF2 can be described as TF with less grenade spam and more personality. Depends on what you prefer.

>>1654058
Scout used to have a nailgun and a shotgun in TFC. It's kinda the same still, except it's a pistol and a scattergun (which is identical in performance to a shotgun).

>>1654056
there actually is or there was like 4 years ago when I still played that shit. it was in beta at that stage but they put the nades back in and everything

>>1654061
Did they have a shotgun? I thought it was something else. Weird.

>>1654069
Yes, a single barrel shotgun though.

>>1654069
remember TFC had single and double shotguns

>>1649101
It was 90% when it first came out

>>1647276
Yeah, pretty much.

It REALLY shows its age, and the differences in combat between the two, because it sucks hard.

>>1654927
shit, TF2 babbys would be complaining about no roof on the bridge on 2fort or killing themselves with detpaks because "how do i make it not blow up after 1 second?"

Am I the only one who always thought the TFC soldier looks sad as fuck?

>>1655041
To be fair, 2fort really doesn't work for the way combat usually flows in tf2. CTF maps in general have that problem, really.

>>1643054

TF2 feels so floaty and shitty to me. Other more modern games do, too. Aiming in unreal and goldsrc games feels natural and perfect. Why.

Every single post here makes me immediately think of playing on the original Well, before it became what it is now. The original Well was awesome, with a huge jail yard and the gas chamber thing, where you gassed the entire other team instead of capturing a flag. I miss that map.

>>1656881
tf2 is floaty and shitty its baby mode FPS. Its still fun though just because its so easy to rustle jimmies because the playerbase is so bad at vidya. It wasn't unusual for me to dominate entire teams and have 5:1 kdrs

>>1658178
At first I was going to chastise you, but then I realized if someone cares about dominations then they deserve to have their jimmies rustled.

Remember Avanti?

>>1659387
chastise me for wat? bein 2 gud? my friends and I got accused of hacking all the time just because we weren't scrublords
>not caring about dominations
sounds like casual talk to me or the average tf2 player. You wanna trade hats bro?

I played Hunted more than was healthy.

>>1659738

I loved this map. I wish they would bring that game mode back.

>>1646607
That and Degreaser + Axtinguisher is still rather deadly

>tfw you sneak the hunted up the vent shaft and get him to the end in 30 seconds before the snipers have barely even left spawn

>>1659981
He also seems to be pretty decent for an Uber target against a Sentry nest, seeing as the Engineer will usually be behind his sentry and repair it but your flames will get him as well. The Pyro would probably be a better class if he was a bit faster (around Medic speed) and his flamethrower could deal more damage. Didn't the Backburner buff his HP up to 225 at one point?

>>1661175
It did. It was one of the first nerfs the thing got.

We should have seen the signs then and there; Valve doesn't want the pyro to be good.

>>1661781
Well, at least the Powerjack makes him 15% faster, making him more viable to stalk and chase prey and burning them to a crisp. But the backburner is near useless as you have to be DIRECTLY behind the enemy, but the Spy just needs to be adjacent from you to backstab you.

>>1661781

Valve didn't really have a choice. The people that complain about losing to a specific class aren't capable of learning. These idiots usually just charge directly at the enemy team, regardless of anyone's classes. Pyro just happens to be the one that secures kills even after the bad players get lucky and beat someone.

>>1659641
Funny enough, the port of Avanti was one of the main maps in my TF2 server, even though nobody else had played TFC. People really liked it, so it must've been a good map.

>>1663290
>The people that complain about losing to a specific class aren't capable of learning.

If that was the case, then the Spy would've been run under the nerf roller by now. I mean, it's not like a 180 degree backstab radius, a sapper with no cooldown and infinite ammo that disables and destroys sentries, a gimmick that allows him to feign death and survive any attack, a knife that leaves no message in the kill feed and instantly disguises you, or an item set that makes him entirely quiet would pose a problem to anyone that's either new or EXTREMELY paranoid.

The Spy is one of those classes that is only effective if the target is one of the two extremes; a scout that runs around and mashes X-5 will actually kill the spy by complete accident, while the engineer who's always watching out and shoots suspicious teammates will be wrecked.

>>1663861

Remember, the kind of player I'm talking about can't figure out how to not get lit on fire by a short-range weapon. Playing engineer, checking for fake deaths, looking at the kill feed, and listening for decloaks are all actions that are too complex for them. All of those loadout choices are too advanced to have any effect. While the knife is going to cause them problems, spy is, like you said, entirely countered by dumb luck.

I didn't do a good job of making this point the first time, so I'll try again. The people that complain have one strategy, as far as I've been able to learn from playing since release: run straight towards the enemy. The weapons that most interfere with this strategy get the most complaints.

Natasha stops them from running in? OP!
Minisentries kill them when they run forward blindly? OP!
Stickybombs kill them because they charge straight at the retreating demo? OP!
Afterburn kills them after they run up to a pyro's face? OP!

All I'm saying is that the things that ruin this one thoughtless playstyle get the most flak, and that this contributes to what gets nerfed.

>>1663996
I see where you're coming from, but I'm still surprised that the Spy hasn't been steamrolled by the nerf truck by now. And the kill feed won't be useful if the Spy has the Eternal Reward or Spycicle, which doesn't record his kills. And even the most cautious engineer will be killed and destroyed by a random spy, simply because of how his weapons aren't exactly tailored to killing spies. His shotgun won't connect or do any damage if he's further than sneezing distance, same with the pistol, leaving only his wrench. However to do that, you have to get close to the Spy, which means that you have a 50/50 chance of being backstabbed due to how borked the hitboxes are.

>>1665584
>using old models
Muh nig

>>1661175
>The Pyro would probably be a better class if he was a bit faster (around Medic speed)
Having the Powerjack out makes him slightly faster than a Medic.

>>1656713
>Scout is bigger than the heavy
What the fuck.

>>1651624
Not the guy you replied to.

>Why do you TF2 kids always think you're so much more experienced and knowledgeable than someone who started playing TF in the 90s?
Because they're both different games? TFC is much more fast paced while TF2 requires you to think more.
I played both, and since grenades are removed and havoc physics engine made things like strafe jumping impossible, TF2 is much more slower.

>In QTF/TFC it's actually possible to act like the enemy, but in TF2 you're busted the second you brush up against someone.
Use some diagonal strafe moves? When they see you don't bump into other players they'll take their attention elsewhere.
Use other shouts to distract attention away from you? Such as "incoming!" or "Spy!", but don't spam "Medic!" like a flipping idiot. Change weapons on your active disguise by the help of current disguise button.

Still got caught? Learn the map and look for juke points, activate cloak fake the direction you're heading then do a sharp turn and climb on top of something near.
On fire against a pyro? Whip out your damn pistol and start shooting the fucker.

>The fact that a player needs to master various things to effectively play as a spy in TF2 doesn't make the class any less shitty.
Still, it doesn't change the fact that you need to git gud to be effective at some class at some casual fest game. Why bother if you're not willing to effort further than learning how to strafe jump at '90s?

>>1667879
>On fire against a pyro? Whip out your damn pistol and start shooting the fucker.
It's actually pretty effective. I think you only need 4 standard revolver hits to take him down at moderate range.

>>1663454
Whoa, this map was ported to TF2? What is it's filename, so that I can find it and play on it myself? I'll even dress my heavy up like this >>1643319 and have myself a nostalgia trip.

>>1667879

>On fire against a pyro? Whip out your damn pistol and start shooting the fucker.

One of the biggest signs of how screwed over the Pyro is. If a Spy starts shooting at any point before the flames connect, he'll survive the afterburn and the pyro will die, as long as he doesn't stop retreating, doesn't miss, and the pyro doesn't add switch to shotgun/flare/melee and land a hit.

>>1669295
http://tf2.gamebanana.com/maps/52688

>>1669663
I wanna go on a server with this map and play with people, not download it. But thanks.

>>1670493
Just type it in the map filter. There'll probably be at least one server that runs it.

>rock2 and hunted

http://mrclan.com/avi/

TFC videos

>>1673574
>rock2
aww yeah mofo.
>grabbing that last gasmask infront of your team mate
>Player (Dead): Nigger!

This game had the best custom maps. I remember playing the fuck out of this one map like Hunted but with an entire team of civilians trying to cross the fence to get to Taco Hell. The adventure maps were raw as fuck too and I wish more games did something like that.

>>1651274
Does it involve the Patriots?

>>1643054
I like to think the TFC Sniper is from Egypt.
Also Rock2 was the best map.

Anyone else remember that QTF map where one team had to help the illegal immigrants cross the border and the other had to stop them?

>>1663996
Nerf to DR=outcry because they can't run in