/vr/ - Retro Games

>>1652189

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=551612

forgot I had this link if anyone's interested in ff9 ingame art

Would love to see the models of Infinity Engine games up close, I wonder if the 3D models still exist on some forgotten computer that gathers dust in someones basement.

>>1652189
how do you like shining the holy ark, OP?

>>1652265

Really neat, I completely forgot about that one! I think my fav aspect of pre-renders is how clay-like they look yet still very digital and not having to do painful stop motion.

>>1652189
Resident Evil was always big on prerendered backgrounds back in the day. I think Code Veronica and Survivor were the only two retro Resident Evil titles that didn't have them, using 3D instead. RE Zero and REmake on the GC use prerendered backgrounds, too, and they look pretty amazing.

>>1653063

Yeah I think it was interesting how Zero pushed the bar. It's probably the best looking pre-rendered game i can remember.

>>1652265
The Shining Force III scenarios also have a similair style for the sprites, apart from the 3D battle scenes.

Not retro, but Golden Sun 1/2 on the GBA pretty much combined the battle sprites from Shining the Holy Ark with the overworld sprites from Shining Force III for a more traditional JRPG.

>>1656043
Clay-like sprites make me throw up in my mouth, I just cannot like them no matter what. They just look so dreadful to me.

Really put me off SaGa Frontier, I mean, Romancing SaGa... fuck that, SNES RPGs in general had really nice sprites and Frontier goes and makes them look like bleagh. Never saw the appeal of them.

>>1656058

I guess since those FF1 sprites were made the chibi look was imprinted in squaresoft's iconography and naturally took off during the 3D era. Even in the RS remake they kept this weird chibby/tall hybrid.

>>1656058
The clay-style was mostly used to make 2D sprites blend in better with 3D environments in the 5th generation, but they definitely show their age these days.

>>1652265
sorry... can you give sauce?

>>1656669
The post states the fucking title right there, you stupid nigger.

DKC trilogy

Always liked the look of Crystal of Kings and Pulstar. There are, like, dozens of good-looking arcade games with prerendered graphics.

never played this but a friend pointed this to me

>>1657101
Came here to post this myself. The sprites are terrible, but the backrounds look amazing to this day.

It's nothing special, but Time Commando is one of the first games I remember playing with prerendered backgrounds.

Resident Evil

I think the first two Fallout games as well as Arcanum used prerendered sprites for characters and items. Possibly structures, too.

Ogre Battle 64 is all prerender art

>>1652189
I absolutely LOVE this style. To me now (28 years old), they are just plain awesome in their simplicity and I could play games like Golden Sun, Mischief Makers, Mario RPG and Saga Frontier all day.
Back when they were new to my wide child eyes, they just seemed so high tech and futuristic. Just looking at Pre-rendered backgrounds were a sheer joy, as I constantly found new things in them.
And now that you showed me the Shining series for Saturn, I got some unknown gems to play soon.
I am still waiting for the era when these are considered "Retro" instead of old style Sprites.

still impressed by the angles despite using sprites. though it can look jarring sometimes.

>>1655987
Wow. This game is going straight on my wishlist.

>>1660192

i hope you know the image posted is FF8.

>>1660192
>wishlist.
Faggot detected.

>>1652189
>Also if you have any info about the process or behind the scenes I'm really curious.

I'm no expert but I think they just made 3D renders in 3D Studio Max or something similar and exported them into sprites through some kind of proprietary program.

The manuals and promotional material for these games often had high-resolution 3D models of the characters and stuff, which I'd assume are what the sprites were scaled down from.

>>1660451

Yeah that goes without saying I suppose. I guess im asking in the vein of the real nerdy specifics. When I try to do stuff like that I get a lot of unwanted AA stuff and wonder if I need to use certain shaders as well to get the look or just limit the colors a lot in photoshop. In general I guess I just want to see behind the scenes people on their windows 95 computers modeling at 5 fps.

Random links:
http://www.glitterberri.com/final-fantasy-vii/map-analysis/map-analysis-part-1/

unused bgs: http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-the-original/unused-fields-of-ffvii/#unused_fields

DKC guys used computers from silicon graphics http://youtu.be/stc0RuRv2RA?t=6m3s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr1tcbHmpJc FF8 mocap stuff

http://youtu.be/Hgln7EqTOmo?t=7m1s can't really find anything super related just ff8 FMV stuff.

>>1660590

Super Mario 64's art was done in CAD software written in Lisp

http://franz.com/success/customer_apps/animation_graphics/nichimen.lhtml

These days, the closest, most similar program there is to that program is the free Wings 3D, which was written in Erlang.

>>1652189
>Saga Frontier

Also, those weren't pre-rendered. Those were photographs of clay models

>>1660443
/v/ poster detected

>>1660601

Shit, seriously? That's even better IMO. I love claymation.

>>1660601

that's actually really cool. Any proof/photos? I don't distrust just wanna know more about it.

>>1660601
That explains a lot...

>>1660396
The game is going straight off my list again then. FF8 I already have.

And no, I had no idea. Picture looked like something that could've fit into an RE title. Not going to play FF8 despite the beautiful renders, can't stand those games.

>>1660443
I don't have any DVD+R's at hand, might as well buy some GC games while they're still not ridiculously expensive.

My wishlist contains two games at the moment, it's not too bad.

>>1660694

will it go back on your list?

not retro, but I'll just go and say RE0 did a lot of cool things like having train shaking even though it'd be easier to do it in real time 3D. And neat things like panning the camera through much bigger than screen backgrounds (i think RE1 just had screen sized shots). There's a lot more i could be missing but basically this is as good as pre-renders will ever get.

>>1660724
It's back on!! Faggot or not, your info and that picture convinced me. I had so much fun with REmake back when it came out, and was very disappointed when the sequels only got sloppy ports instead of the full love treatment.

Somehow zero managed to slip past my radar back then, but hopefully I'll be able to get it from some not-so-scummy reseller scum. Worst case, it'll always be floating around online somewhere.

Ogre Battle 64

What does it Mean when you Say pre-rendered. Isn't eveerything in a game pre-rendered, Since someone rendered the game before you played it.

>>1660724
I like how the blood splatters on the walls. It's a simple colision test, but it looked really cool.

>>1661912
Screenshots of a ray traced computer generatted image rather than real time 3D polygons.

Like how obviously in Donkey Kong Country the SNES couldn't render the character's models in real time so they made everything into animated sprites.

>>1661920
But everything in a game is an animated sprite in some form or another.

>>1661929
Polygons are not sprites, dude. What the hell.

Here's the deal, Doom has sprites, cardboard pictures of 2D images, Quake has actual 3D models. Polygons wrapped by textures.

>>1661939
They're all made of pixels grouped together to form a image, a sprite.

I know a lot of people hate Yoshi's Story, but if you get boners from prerendered graphics, then playing it is worth it just to look at the graphics.

>>1652189
>Come to /vr/ specifically to ask a question about SMRPG
>See this

Even though it's off topic to this thread, I don't really think it needs it's own thread. If I really love the Paper Mario and Mario and Luigi series, should I play this as well? Does it have outdated mechanics compared to hose series that only a nostalgic person could love, or is it pretty easy for even a someone spoiled by modern mechanics to pick up?

>>1662014

Game is easy to pick up and play. It's short and has those small numbers that keeps the RPG game simple. The battles still have those "action events" but they might be less obvious for the timings. There's really no doubt in my mind that you'll enjoy it though.

There is definitely a different charm to it. Meaning there's less of a spritey look and more of a childlike clay look. It's hard to explain but I think it has to do with the fact that squaresoft handled it and did it in their own direction. If you take Booster's Tower for instance, the music has this DKC ominous sound to it, and the checkered flooring gives off this abstract atmosphere. This is a little different from the more whimsical successors.

>>1662014

I haven't played SMRPG since it came out, and I never finished it (I wasn't very into RPGs back then, and my english was pretty much nonexistant, so I couldn't follow the game's text), but from what I can remember you shouldn't have any problem with it, the battle mechanic was very similar to Paper Mario in that you can do consecutive hits by timing your attacks, or duck by pressing at the right time, that was basically just like Paper Mario.

>>1662009
why do the flower petals look off in emulator screenshots of YS? I've consistently noticed that

>>1662035

No idea, if you look closely, a lot of it looks off in that screenshot. obviously the best way to appreciate that game (and in general all prerendered graphics games) is playing on the original hard and on a CRT screen. Emulation tends to fuck up prerenders pretty easy, especially on N64.

>>1661929

It sounds like you don't want to understand or are hung up by semantics. Anything pre-rendered in the industry means something that can't be processed by a console/computer in real time. If you convert a still 3D image into a sprite you're putting less render load on the system the game is being played on.

>>1662028
>>1662031
Thanks, I think I might pick this up with the Wii points that are rotting in my account right now.

I just want to say the detail about the only flowers in midgard being in this tiny little abandoned church is a stroke of genius considering the game's setting and atmosphere. Yeah it's a literal ray of hope theme, but it's effective.

>>1661995
Well you're fucking retarded

>>1652189

This is just hazarding a guess here, but I'm guessing they used whatever 3d modeling suite was available at the time, set every model to be lit from a certain direction, and then rendered every single frame for each animation frame and each position (I've never played SMRPG but I'm guessing it has 8 different facings for each sprite, possibly 16). This has its advantages since it means animation for every character is just a matter of animating the character once, and then changing the model's positioning for each facing.

I've actually used this process myself to create custom assets for a Tiberian Sun mod (pic related), it's actually pretty simple, and since you're just rendering out sprites the render time is lightning quick, and you don't have to worry about bad model topology or texture fidelity since so much gets lost considering the small scale of the sprite.

Here's an example of the methods I'm talking about, albeit using more cartoonish shaders: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=74.msg736603#msg736603

>>1666294

That's pretty cool, also reminds me of pretty much every RTS ever took the jump to prerender when they got the chance.

>>1652189
Kind of ridiculous they did this when you think about it
They could have just drawn the backgrounds instead of modelling them and it costing millions and taking ages

>>1668046

I think that they likely wanted to preserve the same visual style the character sprites had. If they had hand-drawn the backgrounds, I'd imagine it'd look so wildly different so as to make the overall visuals seem schizophrenic.

>>1668046

Well actually people at Squaresoft DID draw the backgrounds. Just had artists model and render over them. Due to the pipeline it doesn't really take that much time, but I will admit it took a lot of money. I think it was due to the pressures of 3D at the time and not being satisfied with realtime environments. Also I guess it made sense to have the FMVs match with the BGs. Doing illustrations would make them have to do anime FMVs or something, which means outsourcing. Also with 3D FMVs they simply reused a lot of the assets used in the BGs. You're right that it would cost less though, Legend of Mana credits seems to have only like 10 artists on BG design.

I say not that much time considering they released 3 final fantasy games in the span of 3 fucking years all of them using BGs, FMVs etc, all of them pushing the limits at the time.

Not trying to shit on you but your post just brings up things to think about. It's also kind of cool to imagine ff7 in illustrated form.

no mention of Ocarina of Time?
Also Baten Kaitos on the gamecube, not retro i know but goddamn!

Also Sonic Blast on gamegear is a good example of prerendering gone bad.

>>1657101
get on that shit

>>1669072

wondering why they did prerenders for only the main hyrule and some interiors. It's a bit inconsistent from a player standpoint.

>>1670174
Early dev screenshots showed a real time 3D city, they probably did it out of performance issues.

>>1670193

>>1670193
I don't understand why.

Quest 64's 3D cities worked fine.

>>1670208
>they probably did it out of performance issues.
he just fucking gave you an answer

>>1670193

The more I think about it I think it felt more like a city due to the fact you couldn't access a bunch of buildings in the background. They probably just didnt want to make all those houses accessible (and if they made them locked or something the world would feel to finite). Idk just another thought.

>>1670448
And also the streets would look really barren with just the handful of npcs in the final version.

Tomba! had some pre-rendered areas too.
Baccus lake totally phazed me out as a kid. Looks shit now, but I remember being so overwhelmed by the comfiness.
pic doesn't do justice, just a quick google search

Toy Story
Clockwork Knight
Oddworld

Wasn't this the main selling point of Vectorman?

>>1661995
in a 3D game, the GPU is actually rendering it in front of you in real time. The models were designed and rendered on a computer at the devs' office, but then it's turned into lines of code for your console or PC to read and render later.

Pre-rendered is a 3D model that's usually FAR too detailed for whatever platform to render real time. So it's turned into a static, flat image that can only be viewed from one side (with some layering for effect) right in the devs' office, then lines of code, then displayed by your machine as a static, 2D image that you can't directly interact with.

Think of it like this:

If a background is 3D, you can pan the camera around, and the system has to render it in real time to make sure it's displaying things correctly.

Pre-rendered is a flat picture that looks 3D, but you can't move the camera to get a different view. It's set, because only that angle of the original model exists.

Saying they're the same thing is like saying a field and a picture of a field are the same thing. They're just not.

>>1652189
Pre-rendered backgrounds are a lost art form. No visible draw distances, greater detail, more atmospheric. But all most people care about is: "Wah! I can't see what's around that corner!!!". Even though 99% of games that used pre-rendered backgrounds either had random battles or used sounds to let you know EXACTLY what was where...
But out they went anyway. I mean, we wouldn't want people to adapt to what they're playing, now would we? Let's just make everything into a 3D TPS with less environmental detail than REmake on the Gamecube...

Can you imagine what current tech could do with pre-rendered environments though? I mean, imagine something like Resident Evil being made in the classic form on the PS4:

>ultra detailed, animated backgrounds with realistic lighting and particle effects
>crazy layering magic to improve the illusion of 3D
>animated camera transitions, so rather than just pan a little, the angle would imitate real camera moves for extra dramatic effect (FYI Parasite Eve 2 did that in one spot at the beginning)
>because the environments are pre-rendered, the 3D models could be literally photo realistic, move around pretty quick and have textures like you can't imagine
>tons of character and enemy models on screen at once, doing all kinds of complicated shit
>unimaginable frame rate (for a console anyway)

It would be magical, but people don't like anything they have to spend 40 seconds adjusting to anymore. so it'll never happen.

>>1673668

Project Eternity is the only modern example i can think of and maybe torment. They use efficient real time lighting effects to make the BGs less static looking. Though I'd just like to see a survival horror or big time japanese RPG attempt it again.

http://youtu.be/Q9CiS5L8zVM?t=30s

>people don't like anything they have to spend 40 seconds adjusting to anymore. so it'll never happen.

I think that's true for gameplay styles as well. Survival horror games were different due to their tank controls (but more like controls that just made sense in their own right). But now have turned into third person shooters just like any other game where left stick is move and right stick is camera. I also felt like something was lost in the upcoming MGS5 game where it basically plays like Splinter Cell. The games before it had their own top down legend of zelda view along with the shoulder button inventory. That made it stand out among other stealth titles.

>>1657107
>sprites

>>1673619

COW LAUNCHED

>>1673619

mfw google imaging for that

>>1652193
Considering they're nearing 20 years old, I don't think they know where the files are anymore.

Square Enix didn't even have the original data for their ps2 games.

>>1660451
Speaking of which, I wonder which program they used. Was 3D Studio even popular back then?

>>1661995
>>1661939

Not him, but I don't get how the end result isn't a sprite.

The original models made of polygons, yeah, but then they're rendered, converted into tilesets, and then color reduced.

They're put into the game as sprites, wouldn't you say?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying pre-renders are pixel art. Games like SMW and Super Castlevania use pixel art. Donkey Kong Country uses pre-rendered sprites. (but not polygons) Star Fox uses polygons.

>>1660451
I know for a fact that Abe's Oddysee, Crash Bandicoot and Super Mario 64 stuff was done in Maya. Back then though, it was called something really gay (Power animator I think?)

>>1657101
Legend of Dragoon isn't a very good game but it has some gorgeous environments.

>>1660747
Enjoy it, Zer0 is very underrated. I think it's the third best RE game (only bested by RE2 and REmake)

>>1667970
I remember this fucking house. God DAMN this game was beautiful. even the interiors of FFX are still nice to look at

>>1677526
It's like the difference between a statue and a cardboard cutout made from a photograph of that statue.

In polygonal 3D, the game is rendering a wireframe model and textures in real time. You can rotate it continuously and move it around and look at it from any angle, and the game will render exactly what you should be seeing from that angle. It is NOT converting the models to tilesets or reducing the colors. It's literally creating 3-dimensional objects and rendering them from wireframes and textures several times a second, based on exact circumstance.

A pre-rendered sprite is essentially a screenshot of that model. Each frame of the sprite is a still picture of the model from one angle. When Donkey Kong beats his chest in DKC, there are a few specific shots of the DK model in the process of beating his chest, and it cycles these shots to give the illusion of a moving monkey. It is not rendering a 3D object at all. It is loading a series of 2D stills.

>>1655987
>>1660396
>FF8
If it's not some obscure part of the BGU training room, I won't believe you.