/vr/ - Retro Games

It was beatable back then. WTF are you going on about?

>didn't fix the getting knocked back thing

Who car?

>>1606891

Losing and getting sent back to 6-1 is usually when I stop playing. It's very unfair. No other part of the game operates like that. It's done simply to make it just that much harder to beat.

>>1606916

Knockback is standard for platformers. It alone isn't that big a deal. It's the enemy placement and other things that make it crazy.

I for one would like to see the respawning enemies removed. You have to learn how to play the game to avoid them respawning.

>>1606883
>>1606916
i beat this game when i was 7, it blows my mind that you people would need a patch or patches just to do it.

>>1606921
>I for one would like to see the respawning enemies removed
The respawning enemies are a big part of what makes it good. They reward aggressive play, which is more fun.

>>1606928
this guy gets it. if you dont want a challenging and fun game, go play freaking candy land or something, but the rest of us will continue to enjoy it and all of its challenges.

This shit wasn't even a big deal. i heard so much shit about this game and never played it as a kid, randomly popped it in an emu and played it through. Yeah the 6-1 thing is a downer but there are a couple of things:

>beat a boss form, no longer have to do it
>there are STILL checkpoints in 6-2 and 6-3 meaning you're not really going from 6-1 to the final boss, only when you lose to the final boss do you actually go back
>The jetpack ninjas at the start was the only place where i couldn't figure out a full health method of getting through there. Everything else has an easy out from discovering through trial and error.
>All you really need to do is make sure you're full health before getting to the boss, and what do you know there are health pick ups pretty late in

>>1606883
>fixed

There was nothing wrong with the game to begin with. Yes, it's difficult and unfair to the player, but that's how the developers intended it to be. The experience of completing the game is that much more gratifying as a result. That tends to be the whole philosophy behind unforgiving difficulty.

>>1606924
I was older, but also beat NG 1 and 2 without cheat. Only some small parts were hard.

>>1606928
>>1606941
Call of Duty does this. Enjoy killing the entire population of trashcanistan before you realize you have to rush to the next checkpoint to make them stop spawning.

>>1606945
This
>game adds stipulations about game over
>game adds more stipulations which ease the final boss fights
It was just a brutish smackdown and it gave the final chapters some personality. jesus christ

>>1606921
>It's very unfair.
>It's done simply to make it just that much harder to beat.

People like you are the reason newer games are easy as shit.

>>1606883
They should fix the criminally overpowered Spin Slash instead. The game is way too easy with it.

Jesus, I -like- hard games (won't claim to having beaten Ghosts n Goblins, but I did get halfway through the "second quest", and the sequel is my favourite game ever), but the amount of internet tough-guying itt is approaching /v/ levels, seriously

yes, NG1 was beatable even with this bug (also yes, it is a bug). But this is obviously a prime example of unfair difficulty, since older platformers relied heavily on memorising enemy placement and boss patterns (this is not a criticism at all, btw). Suddenly, on the very last boss, by definition supposed to be the hardest (and none of his forms are a cakewalk) the game forces you to backtrack two entire difficult levels should you lose a single life on his first form or use a continue to kill all three. This makes it a fucking pain on the ass to even devise a strategy against him, let alone executing it flawlessly. I won't be using this hack (I always prefer experiencing the original game, warts and all), but I completely understand people doing so

>>1607078
This is a good post.

Not in the sarcastic way, either.

>>1607078

It shouldn't be surprising that there are counter reactions to when the OP makes such a dumb fucking implication as Ninja Gaiden not being beatable before, even more so that it needs a "fix".

Just because people aren't patting him on the head doesn't mean they're being "internet tough guys", stop being ridiculous.

Ninja Gaiden is fun as shit and levels 1-5 aren't even hard. When you learn them and can cruise through like a badass it's a really good feeling.

People take about 'unfair' as if there were a universial law about how lives should operate in a video game.

There are games with much stricter laws than ninja gaiden. Many shmups give you no health bar, limited lives that send you back to checkpoints, and limited continues. Sonic wings has a final stage that if you get hit even once on it forces you to restart the entire stage over.

Contra let you survive around 3-4 hits before you have to use a continue (much less than ryu) and than give you only 3 continues.

There are games much much harder than ninja gaiden, stop acting like its the hardest game in the world. The game gives you a power up that 1 hit kills a boss for fucks sake.

>>1607107
Difficulty is subjective, I find Super Mario Bros harder than any Castlevania, Mega Man or Ninja Gaiden, yet I see them on a bunch of "hardest game evar!!!" lists.

>>1607078
>but the amount of internet tough-guying itt is approaching /v/ levels

What? All we did was say the game wasn't impossible to beat, and that some of us enjoyed Ninja Gaiden for its notorious difficulty. I don't understand why you've taken offense to this?

I love easier platformers such as Kirby as well, but I feel like Ninja Gaiden gives me a higher level of replability because it requires that much more practice to complete. If I'm going to invest in a retro game, I'd like to make sure I can put a good number of hours into it. It's also the level of gratification involved in beating it. Kirby is fun, but I can't say it's really a rewarding experience, whereas I'll never forget the first time I actually beat Ninja Gaiden or Ghosts 'n Goblins.

>also yes, it is a bug

How is it a bug?

>>1607118

Not that guy, but as I understand it, it's just a programming error. Checkpoints/restarts were supposed to work like normal on stage 6.

>>1606921
>Losing and getting sent back to 6-1 is usually when I stop playing. It's very unfair.

I don't know you since you're an anonymous person on a message board, but I do know you're not very good at video games.

>>1607129
Every other stage sends you to X-2. Except Stage 1, which sends you to 1-1. What's a "normal checkpoint" for you?

>>1607114
And just to further highlight your point of difficulty being subjective, I find SMB fairly easy and Castlevania 1 hard.

>>1607129

How do you know this, though? It's just speculation. Bear in mind that developers often increased the difficulty of their games for overseas release. It's just as well a possibility in this case.

I guess one detail to consider is whether or not the checkpoints were changed in the SNES re-release Ninja Gaiden Trilogy.

>>1606928
agreed,
you really aren't supposed to be standing still for more than a couple of seconds in Ninja Gaiden

The japanese version didn't have that shit.

Having to replay 6-2 when you die on the bosses DOES suck.

But everything else is how the game is supposed to work. The respawning enemies goes both ways; they despawn if the edge of the screen touches them. Play properly and keep moving, except to stop occasionally to get in a good hit.

>>1607152
>The japanese version didn't have that shit.

Ah, good. Japanese versions of older games tend to be much fairer. It's only nostalgia that keeps people from questioning it.

Japs had no rental service, so difficulty is balanced for purhasers. USA has a rental service. People were afraid of kids beating a game in a rental. So, they jacked up the difficulty to make that impossible.

JP: balanced for home use
USA: Balanced for rentals

>>1607145

It's been a long time since I looked into it, but if I remember correctly, somebody looked into the code and found that it was just a missing flag. As in, it was set up to work like normal, but had that one variable set to false or somesuch. I couldn't cite sources at this point, honestly, but it seems entirely plausible.

That having been said, it's part of the game now, like Murder King Gandhi in Civ. Hell, Gandhi's aggression has become officially hardcoded in newer iterations.

>>1607023

>try to play with the Spin Slash
>always end up losing it

>>1607161

Well, it's all up to choice. In Civ, people like the bug so they run with it. In StarCraft: Broodwar competitive play (RIP) there were tons of bugs that could be legally exploited.

This is a bug I don't really like. I like to see it gone.

>>1607161
What is "normal"? As I've said >>1607137 Every other stage sends you to X-2. 6-1 is just a single short corridor before 6-2, which barely takes any time. I fail to see how that would make a huge difference if you were reset to 6-2?

>>1607160
>It's only nostalgia that keeps people from questioning it.

Right, because you know more about us than we know about ourselves. It's simply not possible for someone to have an opinion that reasonably differs from yours. They must be blinded by nostalgia!

I actually skipped out on the Ninja Gaiden series growing up. I think I vaguely remember playing the second when I was 7 or 8. After I got into emulation, I went back and started from the beginning. At the time, I had already been a fan of difficult platformers like Ghosts 'n Goblins, so Ninja Gaiden's difficulty didn't really put me off.

>>1607174

Nerds on /vr/ are often blinded by nostalgai though.

>>1607168
>This is a bug I don't really like.

It's not a bug, though. Ninja Gaiden's developers always made the games more difficult for Western audiences. Ninja Gaiden III is the most prominent example. Ryu takes more damage, the password system was removed, and continues are limited.

>the perceived popularity of difficult video games in North America caused Tecmo to release the game for the NES with a much higher difficulty level than the Japanese version

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ninja_Gaiden_III:_The_Ancient_Ship_of_Doom#Development

>>1607161
In this interview Masato Kato says it was a programming error, but they intentionally left it in

http://www.hardcoregaming101.net/ninjagaiden/ninjagaiden9.htm

>>1607183

and that's bad. That's why the JP, SNES, and romhacked versions of III are best.

>>1607186
>SNES
>best

Enjoy your butchered soundtrack.

>>1607196

I meant for difficulty balancing. But yes, the SNES ports were very rushed. The sound samples were really bad too.

hyperbole is lost on you people. i wonder how you react when someone says something "tastes like shit."

>>1607196

>No one will ever romhack and fix Ninja Gaiden Trilogy

;_;

>>1607165
Just remember which lanterns hold other power-ups, and avoid them, much like keeping the cross in Castlevania.

>>1607235
I think Ninja Gaiden III sounds best on NES. Fight me.

NG1 tunes are still better on NES, though. And 2 is the title I'm least familiar with in the series, so I can't comment on the music there.

>>1607269
>I think Ninja Gaiden III sounds best on NES.

I meant to say SNES. I like the NG Trilogy version of the III music better.

>>1607273
>>1607269

I never really played enough of III to really judge.

III is such a weird game. They changed teams, so it's done by all new people. And it shows. It has no continuity with the other games, and it's some weird shit about robots or something.

>Changing the rules of the game to make it easier for yourself to beat

Nope. This isn't cheating at all. No sir.

>>1607276

1. It's a bug.
2. The game itself "changes the rules". It's the only stage that brings you WAY the fuck back in the game.

>>1607280
It's not a bug. It's the way the game was intended. And even if it wasn't, it's a part of the published game and part of the challenge. Try winning at a video game with skill instead of moving the goal posts.

>>1607276
I don't think anyone else really cares if it's cheating.

You think a board that grew up with game genies would shrug this off, really.

>>1607289

NG can be unfair and cheap at times. This balances it a bit.

I'm all for balance vs. hard for the sake of hard. Especially if it's cheap.

>>1607280

It's not a bug. We've already established this. According to the interview posted earlier, it was a programming oversight, but Tecmo intentionally left it in there after they decided they liked the effect it had on the game's balance. Again, Tecmo always ramped up the difficulty of Ninja Gaiden games before releasing them in the West due to marketing research showing that Western gamers had a preference for difficult games.

>>1607293
It's not "unfair". It's part of the game. You either have the skills to complete the game or you don't.

What you're essentially saying is "This part of the game is too hard for me. Therefore, it's okay to cheat."

>>1607294
>According to the interview posted earlier, it was a programming oversight, but Tecmo intentionally left it in there after they decided they liked the effect it had on the game's balance.

So...it's a bug that they intentionally left in.

Talk about intention all you want, but don't try to justify it be calling it something it's not.

>ITT fans should never ever try to balance games ever its heracy

>>1607293
You're entitled to your opinion, but you're essentially just designing your own game by doing shit like this, not actually playing Ninja Gaiden.

Beating the game in this way is not beating the genuine game.You're just beating your own game that you've made for yourself, based on your own house rules.

>>1607304

It's not a bug that needs to be corrected, though. This is the balance Tecmo wanted. If a bug achieves that balance, why "correct" it only to turn around and write a line of clean code that has the exact same effect on the game's balance?

It's Ninja Gaiden for the 200X generation! Don't forget to take your Ritalin and stop playing in time to watch American Idol.

PS, your Dad called and said to mow the lawn before the planned community committee gets up in arms.

Why not just skip the rom hack and use save states. Does it make you feel better this way by pretending you're not cheating?

>>1607185
Q: Ninja Ryuukenden 1 is (in)famous for its extreme difficulty. Especially after losing against the last boss, and having to start at the beginning of the whole chapter, a lot of gamers were faced with despair. At that time, was it your conscious aim to create such a hard game?

A: Mr. Yoshizawa directed the action part for the first game, but that was actually something a programmer had implemented this way accidentally. However, it wasn't tried to fix it. They were like "hey, that's not bad, either". *laughs*

>*laughs*

>*laughs*

>>1607275
3 is different, some dismiss it as "floaty shit". I thought that it still has this awesome feeling of danger of the previous games. Also, it has an ice stage I actually like.

What bothered me most is that the soundtrack and the cutscenes aren't as good in that one.

I don't care if someone wants to rebalance older games, but don't say they're bugged just because they're difficult, even if they are artificially difficult at some points. That's what the developer intended.

Whoever released this hack may as well go all the way and rebalance different aspects of the game to tone down the overall difficulty, because it's kind of pointless otherwise. If you can't beat the original game, then you can't beat it. Don't blame it on a perceived bug. Don't change one part of the game that you found particularly challenging, then say you've actually finished the game as it was intended to be finished. That's tantamount to using codes, savestates or a Game Genie.

>>1607336
>>1607323
>>1607309

I see no reason to be such a purist. Fan rebalancing, tweaking and enhancement patches are perfectly fine. I believe that games should be balanced. Some are a little too hard, and should be a tiny bit easier. Others way too easy and should be made harder.

There's also a reason why many times I play the JP version over the NA version. The JP versions are a bit easier and many times more fair.

Devs are not infallible. Many things in games are really unbalanced. Fans have all the time in the world, whereas devs have limited time, and may have missed things.

If you're going to be a purist fine. But I see no problem with minor tweaks to older games. As long as they do not change the spirit or overall tone of the games. In this 99% of the game is unchanged. Just where you respawn after you run out of lives at the very end.

>>1607358

I don't consider it a bad game. It just doesn't feel like a Ninja Gaiden game. So it's this side-series or something. That's why I never got into it. It was too different.

>>1607370

it's not even about being a purist it's about being so butt hurt you patched one tiny thing out of the game when you might as well have save stated or something. Like there's this middle ground purist with the patch that doesn't make sense ironically enough.

>>1607384

It's an improvement and balances the game better than originally.

>ITT turbo nerds who can't admit their old childhood games aren't perfect and deny obvious improvements

>>1607294
>before releasing them in the West due to marketing research showing that Western gamers had a preference for difficult games.

More like

>due to marketing research showing that the west had rental stores that would kill them in case the players actually finished the game in less than 3 days of tries

>>1607403
>implying you have any proof of this

Shut the fuck up

>>1607427

How about every japanese game that got ported in the US being harder than its original, japanese version?
How about Japan having laws against videogame rental, which is also the reason you can find second hand games there no problems up to this day?

Castlevania 3 did the same trick too, die to Dracula in JP version-> sent back right before Dracula, die to to Dracula in US version-> Sent back to second part of the level and have to do it again.
Also Grant getting the shitty ass knife instead of the throwing daggers in the JP version or the difference in hit damage between levels.

And that's only one example, there are other games with similar disparity between US and JP version, and that's a monetary reason, not certainly because they "knew" US players were better or more hardcore.

>>1607435
Also, Westerners have higher testosterone, and that's what gives you the drive to overcome great adversity. Japanese people have the lowest testosterone levels of any people on the planet, which is why piss easy RPGs with cutesy cartoon characters are so popular there.

>>1607386

>improves

whatever you say pal

>>1607435

Are you seriously trying to say that EVERY Japanese game ported tot he States is harder than its original? You're insane. It just isn't true.

>>1607482

"Every" is obviously a hyperbole, but when it happened it happened because of that, not "market research".
They don't know shit about the Western market now let alone do market research back then.

>>1607486
Cite your sources or shut up. There are only a few games where this is actually true.

>>1607443
I wish the Japanese would go back to being a violent war culture. fuckin America ruined em after ww2

>>1607370
>I believe that games should be balanced.
Balanced for what? Your lack of skill? You are literally just taking a game known for its difficulty and removing the difficult elements because you find them difficult.

While you're at it how about just giving yourself infinite lives. Since, after all, nobody should have to go back to the start of a stage. It just wastes time.

>>1607492
It's the soy sauce that has ruined them, they put that shit on everything, and it acts as an estrogen in the human body, which lowers testosterone. The same thing is happening in the States. It's no coincidence that soy is in just about every processed food at the grocery store now and that testosterone in American men have been in decline since the late 80's.

>>1607443
both Western and Eastern gamers are mostly casuals

>There is video evidence available of someone beating this game without killing a single enemy except bosses, both on stream and in a marathon setting
>This hack

Absolutely pathetic, modern gamers ladies and gentlemen.

>now beatable

Nigga I beat this game when I was 12.

It's still a very good patch and I'm glad to see that others can finally overcome the bullshit hurdle that is stage 6.

>>1607581
Look at what type of game is most popular in the States. Competitive online shooters. Competitive. Western gamers are casual to us hardcore gamers, but they still like a challenge, just not as much challenge as us hardcore gamers do.

>>1606883
>This patch fixes the annoyance that occurs when Ryu dies at one of the final three bosses and is sent all the way back to the beginning of stage 6-1. This patch instead sends you to 6-3, making the game a little more fair.

Fuck these romhackers, the game was already more than fair. Any bosses you killed in the final stage stayed dead, and the only trade off was you had to re-do a couple extra stages. Which might I add, was actually a huge BENEFIT to the player since they could re-accumulate max MP and re-gain the spin-slash for another 1-hit kill on the next boss. If they started you at the very final stage at death you wouldn't have this opportunity. Going back is actually a huge help to the player.

People who complain about this are the same types that complain and cry when their brand new car for their 16th birthday was blue and not red.

>>1606883
>This patch instead sends you to 6-3
>patch
kek
I made a 2 part game genie code which fully prevents that.
Using the half code sends you only back to previous stage/boss.
I could also make a single code which does the exact same thing as that dumbass patch.
Wait, let me look up my tech. notes about this game.
ZOSVALAP, took me 1 minute to make this. I didn't tested this but i'm sure it will work.

Hello friends,

decided to pick this game up for a while tonight as I've only ever gotten as far as the third level. My intention was to get to level 6 and make an "objective" determination of how bullshit it was, but I'm still on 5-3 after a couple of hours. Having a good time though.

Finally got to the level 5 boss, but died quickly and gamay obera. I was hoping since there was a cutscene that I'd start at the boss, but alas, back at 5-3.

>>1606883
The only thing that needs to be fixed is the final boss sending you back too many levels. I'm almost sure that's unintentional. Everything else about the game is perfect.

>>1607152
>>1607160
>>1607183
>The japanese version didn't have that shit.

Yes it fucking did.

Dude, the original Ninja Gaiden box even has "Hard to beat!!" printed on the cover.

This isn't a fix. It's a cheat for babbies. Nigga I beat Jaquio WITH JUST A SWORD.

This isn't even a hard game. Try Deadly Towers if you want something actually hard...

>>1608809
>This isn't even a hard game

>>1606883

Reminder that the PC-Engine version has had this forever.

Hey guys, I fixed video games.


No need to thank me.

>>1611364
Duck Hunt with that gun would be actually good

>>1608809
Deadly Towers is hard for all the wrong reasons.

so, aside from a fuckton more posturing over the internet, it seems the only "arguments" against this hack are the existence of e-sports (and God only knows how that's supposed to relate to balancing difficulty in single-player platformers), of people beating the game in x or y conditions (as if one person on youtube being capable of 1ccing whatever game without getting hit or balancing a plate on his nose proved some sort of point) and that this was the developers' intention (always a non-argument, even in the rare instances such as this one where we know for a fact it wasn't).

maybe some of these gaming paragons strutting around itt might want to put their l33t skillz into explaining how these points I made here >>1607078 translate into good game design and not an artificial (and incredibly steep) increment in difficulty. Yes, the developers caught the bug and decided to keep it, and in doing so made a poor design choice

>>1611513
It can't be both "unfair" and "beatable".

>>1611513
It just comes down to a matter of what your personal choice is: Do you actually want to play Ninja Gaiden the classic NES game, or do you want to make your own game in your own image and play that? If you wish to do the former then you can't use such hacks because you're essentially cheating by changing the rules of the game to suit your interests. If you want to do the latter, then hack away.

>>1611513

Several posters already did discuss your points, and we're all pretty much in agreement that there's nothing actually wrong with the game's balance. You're just taking this to a personal level for some reason. No, we don't agree with you, but that's just our opinion. Why do you need our approval? Why bring this here in the first place? /vr/ is not really the target audience for these sort of hacks.

>>1611567
>nothing actually wrong with the game's balance.

Well I disagree. You are free to play the original game, but I am more partial to this romahck as it balances the game more.

>>1611581
>I just dropped in to announce that I wanted to beat Ninja Gaiden by cheating, and I don't care what anyone else thinks

Okay? Duly noted, then. Bye now.

>>1611596

>cheating

Fuckin pussy I can beat the game regularly in about 25 min or so. No offense, but you need to step it up.

>>1608227
Oh man that fucking L jump in 5-3. I hated that.

>>1608264
Level 5 boss is Malth, right? Do you want a hint?

>>1611596

Is the PC Engine cheating? it does the same thing the romhack does.

>>1611631
Ah never mind just checked the date, you probably aren't here any more or already beat it.

>>1611526
says who? I Wanna Be the Guy is in fact all about unfair difficulty and is still beatable. Balancing a game's difficulty by the very bottom of the skill scale like nowadays is ridiculous, but balancing it by the topmost tier instead is no better. Personally, I think NG Black is probably the best example of well-balanced difficulty in videogames; it's demanding, but never cheap.

>>1611567
no they didn't, sorry. Nobody so much as touched a single point in there, except for the bug part, which is mostly inconsequential. Also, do note I didn't make this thread or in fact ever used the hack, there's nothing personal about it aside from the /v/ level of discourse here being aggravating.

>>1611635
>comparing IWBTG with Ninja Gaiden

Seriously? Still, it's not even unfair when you can still beat the game. I'm sorry that you have to practice at something to get good at it.

>>1611635
>no they didn't, sorry. Nobody so much as touched a single point in there, except for the bug part, which is mostly inconsequential.

>yes, NG1 was beatable even with this bug (also yes, it is a bug). But this is obviously a prime example of unfair difficulty

A prime example is inconsequential? WTF are you even talking about?

>>1611667
not comparing anything. I once heard someone say you have to practice at something to get good at it, maybe you should try reading more

>>1611672
yes, the discussion of whether or not it was a bug (and developer intention in general) is inconsequential in discussing the objective impact a "feature" has on gameplay and difficulty. Not sure why this puzzles you

>>1611689
It's puzzling because you said it was a prime example of what you were talking about, only to immediately dismiss it as inconsequential.

>not comparing anything
>I Wanna Be the Guy is in fact all about unfair difficulty and is still beatable

You literally compared it to IWBTG

It's not possible to have a discussion with someone who can't estblish their point when they're constantly contradicting themselves.

>>1611696
or with people who can't into reading comprehension

yes, I think this bug or feature of NG1 is a prime example of unfair difficulty. Then I proceeded to explain in detail why I think so, which would be the impact this bug or feature has on the game's difficulty, which in turn would be setting a longer checkpoint right before the very last, most difficult boss in a game which relies on memorisation of enemy patterns.

people then proceeded to completely ignore the stated reasons for my opinion, instead getting hung up on my calling it a bug (which I think it undeniably is, as per the interview someone else posted, but perhaps I shouldn't even be saying this since it will no doubt give more weight to this very inconsequential aside)

as for IWBTG, I used it as an example of a game built around unfair difficulty, never said NG1 is as difficult, which would be laughable (even on the part we're arguing about, it's a thousand times easier). But it's a matter of proportions, not essence

So is the SNES trilogy been watered down? I've beaten ng1 too many times to count on nes but ng 2 and 3 I've only beaten on SNES trilogy. Do I need to play the new version s for the proper difficulty?

>>1611723
New should be nes.

>>1611723

Ninja Gaiden Trilogy is, sadly a really rushed cheap port. It removes lots of things, sadly. Lots of little effects. Paralax scrolling is gone in 3. It's in 1-2, so it's mostly just due to time constraints. There's a section in 2 that is in total darkness, and is only lit by lightning. Cool thing. In the SNES port the entire room is lit.

Lots of little things like that missing.

I wouldn't say "watered down" as it was intentionally done so. I think they just ran out of time. The team was likely very small and the port probably cost next to nothing.

There's also some censorship, at least in the North American SNES version.

With a little bit of practice you can just breeze through 6-1, 6-2 and 6-3 easily, so it's not that big of a deal.

Here's a webm of me beating world 6-2 in one life

Got pretty hairy at the end, but I made it!

>>1611765
also sorry about the quality, if anyone knows any better settings, I'd love to know.

>>1611717
You once again contradicted yourself.

You made a point, only to dismiss it, and then you compared two things, and said you didn't compare them.

Lecturing others on reading comprehension is ALL kinds of irony.

>>1611717
Uh...saying IWBTG is also a type of "unfair difficulty" *is* making a comparison. IT doesn't matter if NG1 isn't as hard. You directly compared the two as having that same "type" of difficulty, so stop saying you didn't compare them.

Also, don't keep making a big deal about the "bug" and how it relates to what you're talking about if you're just going to dismiss it when it's brought up regarding things YOU pointed out.

>>1611781
nothing to say, once again, about the only actual point I made in this entire thread, even when spoonfed to you? How about a single word on putting a much longer checkpoint that forces replaying the hardest stages on the game before its single hardest boss?

I guess I couldn't teach you anything on reading comprehension much as I tried if that's what you got from my last post

>>1611765
sure, it's doable, but on that very video you were nearly dead when you got past them. These are tough stages, and making you replay all of them every time before even getting to the last boss compounds the difficulty of learning and avoiding his patterns

>>1611832
You tried and failed.

>How about a single word on putting a much longer checkpoint that forces replaying the hardest stages on the game before its single hardest boss?

But I thought you said the "bug" was inconsequential, and you're once again bringing it up as a point that needs to be addressed.

What the actual fuck? Is it inconsequential, or is it something that needs to be addressed? It can't be both.

>I guess I couldn't teach you anything on reading comprehension much as I tried if that's what you got from my last post

You aren't making any fucking sense. OF COURSE you aren't going to teach anyone when you can't even make up your fucking mind in regards to what you're talking about.

>>1611832
6-3 is actually way easier than 6-2.

There's a health pack on 6-3 you can get that will heal you. Normally I can get through 6-2 with half health at least, but I'm kind of out of practice.

And also you don't have to go back to 6-1 if you lose on 6-3. So you can die on 6-3 no problem. Plus they heal you before you have to fight the boss anyway.

>>1611857
jesus christ, what's inconsequential is whether you call the warp back when dying to jaquio a bug or feature, not the fact that it's there and its impact on the game's dificulty, which happens to be THE ONLY THING being argued itt. After this amount of idiocy I must assume I'm being trolled, so feel free to bring out the confetti and declare victory

>>1611861
sure, but this doesn't change the fact that once you get to jaquio you have to kill him in a single sitting to avoid being warped back, and so learning his patterns (for all forms, no less) gets a lot tougher for it

>>1611864
I didn't comment on whether it's a "bug" or a feature". Whose ass did you pull that from? I commented on the fact you keep bringing up as an example of what you're referring to, and then saying it's inconsequential.

First, you can't make up your mind on what you're talking about, and then you start arguing against shit that I didn't even say.

You are the thickest motherfucker I've ever had the displeasure of communicating with.

>>1611872

It's like 5 min tops before you get to try again against the boss.

>learning Jacquio's patterns
no need for that
>>1607023

>>1611910
That's cheap dude. I always do all sword runs, using the ninja powers makes it too easy.

>>1611915
Ninjas are sneaky, pragmatic people.

lol op probably owned a game genie too and used it with every game regardless of difficulty

>>1607023
>They should fix the criminally overpowered Spin Slash instead. The game is way too easy with it.

Is that a glitch? That it's so powerful? Since it seemingly can do WAY more damage to bosses than it should I think.

>>1611667
I disagree. In my view, IWBTG is not practice, but rote memorization. The amount of technique required for beating the game is minimal compared to the amount of just memorizing when things will show up and kill you. There's no real rhyme or reason to the threats either, and nothing to learn about them in terms of patterns or frequency. You can't go into a new level you haven't played before and beat it without dying, and it's more likely that you'll die to a random threat you could not have expected or anticipated. You only advance by knowing that it's there next time. Personally, I don't consider that very good game design. Designing games should be about encouraging the player to try all their different abilities to reach a point. It shouldn't just run off of players memorizing where deaths occur in each level and how to avoid them. You might as well just go to cram school and take written exams for fun, as far as I'm concerned.

>>1612027
It's got to be. That's what there should be a fan patch for, to reduce the damage spins do.

>>1612068
Well, fuck you, then play something else. Some people enjoy memory based challenges. For example, look how popular trivia games are, jeopardy, etc.

>>1612096

But that's changing the game. And as we have discussed in this thread, Ninja Gaiden is perfect and any fan wanting to change it is blasphemy.

>>1612109

No, we've been saying that making Ninja Gaiden easier would be a blasphemy. Making it harder is no problem at all. Especially with a patch like this, because you could just never use the spinwheel on bosses, so the patch would just be something you could do manually anyway.

>>1612068
For the most part, those games are purposely built to be as near-impossible as they can be. It's a fairly new genre, and games like Super Meat Boy and the like fall into that same style of "purposely sadistic gameplay"

I look at it like Radiant Silvergun on HARD mode. It's VERY difficult, but not to the absolutely maddening level of some of these "bullet hell" shmups that are more geared to the absolute hardcore memorization players.

pic related

>>1612119
*forgot pic

>>1612119
Super meat boy is a piss-easy game. You have unlimited continues and just about 30-60 seconds you get a checkpoint. It almost feels like you are playing with save states (because the game's intended audience probably people that use savestates in the first place)

NES games were not designed to be as hard as possible, not at all. They were designed for children for fuck sakes. Anyone who knows shit about game difficulty will tell you that ninja gaiden is not hard until you get to the final level. Ninja gaiden was designed with children in mind for its difficulty. As an adult who never played the game before growing up as a child it took me a week to finish it.

Its not even the toughest nes game. You are given unlimited continues, a pretty big health bar, and proper use of subweapons makes the game expontially easier:there is a subweapon that 1 hit kills any boss, a well placed windmall shuriken can completly cut apart any formation of difficult enemies. The game relies heavily on memorization (which contrary to what you are told makes the game easier because it means once you know how to clear a certain section you can reliably do it 100% of the time: games that have elements of randomness to them are much much harder than games that can be memorized)

If you want an NES game that is really tough look at zanac or castlevania 1's second loop. If you want an SNES game that blows your head off look at the japanese version of super ghosts n ghouls which has no continue feature or play gradius 3 on its highest difficulty.

There are games much, much harder games (go into the shmup thread on this forum and ask people people there about difficulty).

All this arguing about NG1, and no one is going to bring up that NG2 did the same thing, but didnt have the completely broken spin slash?

>romhacks

>>1612154
The clones are almost as broken.

>>1612158
They arent an "I Win" button though. You still have to learn to use them properly.

>>1612151
>Super meat boy is a piss-easy game
Uh... just how much of it have you actually played?

>tfw you can play the entire last stage of NG without taking a hit

Git gud, it's worth that feel.

>>1612151
>piss-easy

You must be some kind of podigy, then.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/28150/Super_Meat_Boys_McMillen_Explains_Why_So_Hard.php

>>1612282
I've learned to beat Castlevania without dying as well as beating Zelda 2 without a single game over with 8-8-1 stats and I still can't get that feel that people talk about.

Is there something wrong with me? I've raided hardcore in WoW vanilla-WotLK and never really felt anything during boss kills either.

I have gotten adrenaline rushes while playing board games though, but it's incredibly rare. I just want to know my brain isn't broken.

>>1612295
>uses Gradius 3 SNES version as example of a difficult game
Odds are you're just talking to somebody who namedrops some titles he's heard about but never played.

>>1612316
Maybe because games like Castlevania and Zelda 2 have convenient exploits like stunlocking with holy water or flying over areas as a fairy. It makes sense that you'd want to exploit Ninja Gaiden in a similar way.

>>1612295
It's not hard but could you guys please not mention that shitty flash game in here. I can't believe that faggot actually got paid for his game he lifted from 2flashgames.com though.

>>1612328
>uses Gradius 3 SNES version as example of a difficult game

All Gradius games are pretty difficult, though. They sure aren't easy.

>>1612295
I hate this fucking faggot with such a passion for that article he wrote on lives being antiquated game design. It has spread so much ignorance over risk-reward mechanics. He is an archetypical Retro Indie Fuckwad Who Doesn't Understand The First Thing About the Old Games He's Trying to Mimic.

>>1612353
When you make posts like these, it helps to post your actual arguments.

>>1612352
When Gradius 3 SNES gets compared to "piss-easy" Super Meat Boy though, I'll put my money on him not knowing what he's talking about over him being a platformer prodigy who finds shmups easier than Sexy Parodius "hard".

>>1612361
>When Gradius 3 SNES gets compared to "piss-easy" Super Meat Boy though

Err, my whole point is that Gradius 3 SNES is not an easy game. I don't see what's wrong with using it as an example of a hard game. Because it is. Easier than the arcade version, but still not what I call easy.

>>1612151
Agree with you on each point, except that I don't really consider NG a memorizer game - mostly you need to keep in mind few places where you need to STOP, since it's designed the way that you're actually safe while going right on full speed.

>>1612374
>except that I don't really consider NG a memorizer game

Why not? Enemy spawn locations can fuck you up if you don't know about them.

>>1612169
getting two clones near the enemy and spamming fire DOES seem like an I Win button to me. Not as ludicrous as the spinslash, but it's still devastating.

>>1612370
Well my counter-point was that Super Meat Boy is way harder than Gradius 3 for SNES.
I guess I misinterpreted you then.

>>1612382
Yeah almost all the ninja powers are game breakingly easy. That's why I always do sword only runs.

>>1612386
Even in 3?
Because I can barely beat 3 even with powers. Hell, I'd even pay for a copy of 3 with a password system. Getting hit on a moving platform and being stuck in knockback animation for 6+ seconds ftl.
I guess you can guess which level has killed me the most.

>>1612435
I don't consider 3 to be a real ninja gaiden game because it is so different from the other 2.

>http://www.romhacking.net/hacks/1862/

>Hack does not exist! ID# 1862 is invalid!

>>1612475
I sent the romhacker an email explaining what was wrong with the hack, and he agreed with me and agreed to take it down.

>>1612483
>>1612475

>fascists wanting everyone to play games the way they do

>>1612483

I liked it though...

>>1612497
>>1612494

Did anyone make a backup of it?

>>1612494
>>1612497
Existence of romhack creates misunderstanding that there's something wrong with game, just look at OP, he uses word "fix", like game is somehow broken. Why don't you use save state (like you probably always do), it's the same thing.

>>1612538
>that there's something wrong with game

So every retro game is absolutely perfect?

So no one should ever tweak or create alternate versions or modes?

This is insanity.

The problem isn't getting sent back to 6-1.

I can deal with that shit.

The real fucking problem is that it doesn't reset the bosses! So you jump right into fighting the main fuck without fighting the dad first, and not getting healed before you fight the dad.

If you aren't that good at it and you're aiming to beat it, you might as well hit the reset button if you don't beat him the first time. You sure as hell are going to have a handicap if you keep continuing.

>>1612561
see >>1607679

>>1612565
And that doesn't help.

I'm trying to get as much practice as I can to git gud. Having the bosses stay dead, and that particular one not getting healed before the boss fight gives me less time to play before I'm dead.

>>1612585
then use a save state :^^)

I'm getting to the point where I can roll through 6-2 and 6-3. But I don't have much playtime on the boss.

Thankfully I can savestate at jaqio to practice on him, but if I wasn't flashcarting, I'd have some irritation about it.

>>1612591
no harm done amirite ;)

>>1612561
IIRC there is a health vial just a few feet before the boss door, somewhere around where that group of tiny things spring out at you, but thankfully there's a time freeze item near there too to make it even easier to collect the health.

>>1613083

You can see where it is in this guys webm

>>1611898

>>1612483
Oh, now that is just shameful behaviour. Thanks a fuckin' bunch, you petty, officious little prick. A completely OPTIONAL patch designed to remedy an unreasonable, time-wasting bug that the developers themselves admitted was harsh and unfair yet decided to leave it in anyway because that level of challenge and dickishness was acceptable at the time. What about the existence of optional 'easy' or 'casual' patches for retro games, should they be removed as well because they are not in line with the developer's intentions? While 'hardcore' gamers can and will think less of people who use such patches or lower difficulties, going out of your way to get the patch taken down is just pissy and vindictive in the extreme.

>>1613283
That's not a bug and you can use a save state.

>>1612151
>and just about 30-60 seconds you get a checkpoint.
Which level takes 30 seconds to beat? I remember the star time for most being 5 to 10 seconds.

>>1613365
>you can use a save state.

Games should be balanced so that you don't have to.

>>1613283
theres already a way to make it easier
its called the 'spinning blade power up' which kills the boss in a single fucking hit.

This is why so many people play the game with no ninjitsu allowed because its the only way to make the last boss actually fucking challenging.

>>1613436

Well, that's another area that needs some balancing. I would guess it's because the spin blade is meant for standard tiny enemies. With huge bosses it registers several hits on them because of their size (they're like 10x the size of regular enemies).

>>1612027

Bosses don't flinch or have invulnerability frames, and their size lets you hit them repeatedly as you pass by. Result being that they get hit a shitload of times in very short order.

>>1613440

Ah. So if you gave them invunerability frames, it would reduce the power of that weapon a lot?

>>1613435
Would you like me to burp you after your bottle?

>>1613445

Yes, but you get so much air time jumping such a large sprite that giving them long enough invulnerability to take only one hit from the spin slash would also reduce the effectiveness of the regular sword swipes.

>>1606883

either I'm missing something or your link is broke

>>1611873
>I commented on the fact you keep bringing up as an example of what you're referring to, and then saying it's inconsequential.

He's saying that the thing that's "inconsequential" is discussing whether or not that thing was intended by the developers. That is what is inconsequential. I'm inclined to agree.

What is not inconsequential is the effect it has on the game's balance.

I was actually more interested in discussing game design objectively than the more "philosophical" stuff such as developer intention and whether any change to a game makes it an entirely different one like >>1611531 here seems to think, but since several people suggested mowing through bosses with the spinning blade as a solution to the jaquio warp, I have to ask: how on earth is that less cheap than playing the game with this hack, which keeps both the levels' and bosses' (if you don't use SB, of course) difficulty intact?

>>1613473
don't go there anon, that way lies only madness and eristics.

>>1613453

Thanks to Mr Killjoy over here, it's gone
>>1612483

>>1613453
>>1613541
yeah, I'm not even going to use this, but this shit was so fucking petty that I've used archive.org to download a copy, so, here you go:
http://www74.zippyshare.com/v/61750153/file.html

>>1613561
>getting rid of a patch that totally breaks the games balance is now "petty"

yeah, ok

>>1613567
>breaks the games balance

>>1613561

Thank you.

>>1613567

I think the argument is that all patches should be archived, and it should be up to individuals whether they like them or not. There will never be consensus on options and much of it boils down to preferences and what you're used to.

>>1613567
it is. You don't get to say to other people how they should play a game, same as you can't stop them using spinning blade or, shit, game genies. If they want to play the hacked version, what's it to you?

>>1613584

It's sort of the turbo nerds fault, but it's mainly the devs fault for caving into pressure. That's kinda faggy. He should have told them to buzz off, and that this is optional.

>>1613584
Well, then why not just have a patch that starts you right at the ending of the game? If you aren't going to play the game right, then don't play it at all. If you want to play an easy game, then play an easy game, don't play Ninja Gaiden.

>>1613590
>Well, then why not just have a patch that starts you right at the ending of the game?

But we're not talking about that.

> If you aren't going to play the game right, then don't play it at all.

Well, that's your view. You do not believe that older games should ever be changed or rebalanced. I disagree with that.

Why didn't you guys huff and puff about all the other patches that rebalance games? There's many that make games easier.

What about the ones that make games harder?

Honestly: Who cares? This is such silly nerd-ness to get your panties in a knot about.

>>1613590
if someone makes such a patch and other people want to use it, fine. It would be ridiculous, of course, but you don't get to say how other people should play

>>1613595
It's not re-balancing the game, it's about getting the reward without having to put forth the effort required. It's a problem endemic in society, everyone gets a trophy no matter how much work they do.

>>1611635
I like the way they did it in games like Wolfenstein 3D, Doom, etc... You can choose the difficulty, based on your skill and desired challenge. I can't think of many 8-bit games that did something like this though. They had enough trouble just making the game work at all within the limited hardware.

>caring about what the cool guys at /vr/ think on challenge and "the true experience"

I fucking finished Mega Man with savestates between each level because the game doesn't have passwords nor saves and I have to fucking sleep, eat or do things.
Same with NES Castlevania between levels, because it has infinite continues but no saves nor passwords.

If you want to play Ninja Gaiden and feel there's a problem with the 6-1 and 6-3 levels and progression use a fucking savestate, if you're having fun you're still having fun.
Don't let other people tell you how to have fun in the things you do unless you're injuring yourself or breaking the law.

However viceversa is also true, don't try to earn acceptance or force your views into others on /vr/.

>>1613534
I don't care much about developer intention. How the actual game feels to me is all that matters. It can be difficult, or easy, but if it's constantly frustrating, then I'm not going to bother to finish that game. It's really a matter of perspective and taste. People enjoy different kind of challenges. For example, I played and beat many 8-bit system games without cheats (including this one) but Final Doom: The Plutonia Experiment felt like a lot of bullshit to me because of all the bullshit scenarios and chaingunner spam, so I never bothered to finish it, and have no incentive to. Sometimes game elements have an unfortunate effect, because they break the suspention of disbelief or the flow.

>>1614714
B-but... Plutonia is the best Doom anon :(

>>1612483
You're doing God's work anon, keep it up.

What exactly did you say to him?

>>1612483
I cringed so hard at reading that I pulled a muscle.

>>1611765
dude you play so slow, you gotta pick it up brah

>>1611765
>those birds things at 0:30

reminds me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-2-rw3irfU

>>1611765
>>1611898
Wow, this guy fails and sucks so hard

>>1616910
What? I beat both of those levels on one life and didn't die once. Granted, I did take some hits, but I'd hardly call that "fails and sucks so hard"

If you have not played the levels yourself, then you should try them instead of just watching them. It's more difficult then it might appear in the video.

>>1607348

>>1607107
There's nothing wrong with difficult/challenging, but "unfair" comes into play when the game doesn't play by the same rules throughout. A lot of people think the return to 6-1 mechanic when no other stage in the game does that is unfair and they're right.

Imagine if in Super Mario Bros. the controls were consistent until 8-1 and suddenly the A button didn't jump anymore, Select did, and instead the A button caused you to instantly die. The game changes the rules without any warning. It's unfair and arbitrarily punishing the player. That's bad game design.

>>1617001
It's only an extreme version of "go back to the start of the level when you die on a boss, only instead of the same level, it boots you back further as punishment.

What you're trying to compare is actually changing the gameplay mechanics for no reason. Terrible analogy.

>>1617001
No it'd be like suddenly going against bowser in 8-4 and being thrown back to 8-1 if you die.

Not impossible.

If you only have one life you can replicate the experience by holding A and hitting start.