/vr/ - Retro Games

This still begs the question of why Ramza wasn't even in Tactics Advance.

>>1544793
Marche is Ramza's great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great grandson

>Letting outside information change the story for you.

If it ain't in the actual game then it ain't canon.

>>1544892
>the guy who wrote the game has no say in what happened

lol k

>>1544902
He can say how it happened but it don't mean shit if it's years after it already came out. A story should never have rely on outside information to tell it unless it's some multimedia thing.

>FFT's ending was never meant to be ambiguous


Well yeah. That's pretty obvious.

>Vagrant Story doesn't take place in Ivalice

I've always said that. The Ivalice that VS presented was a gothic nightmare, very different from what XII and the Tactics series presented.

>>1544931
Vagrant Story supposedly took place on a different continent and in a different time period compared to Tactics, didn't it?

>>1544931
For that matter XII and Tactics barely make sense as taking place in the same world. The Ivalice in Tactics is basically medieval Europe with fantasy elements, while XII's Ivalice is medieval Star Wars. It's like saying Lord of the Rings and Game of Thrones took place in the same world.

Turns out Squall ISN'T supposed to be a queer.

Just because places are called Ivalice doesn't make them the same place right? Or has that proven otherwise?

>>1544772

Yeah, I saw these earlier.

How in the hell does this make any sense? How did Ramza escape? Did they all escape?

Vagrant Story's connection to Ivalice is weird.
>Game comes out, Matsuno says the game has nothing to do with Ivalice and any connections are only fan service
>Few years later, retcons it and says Lea Monde is a part of Ivalice
>A few years ago on his Twitter he changes his mind again, says Vagrant Story has no connection to Ivalice
WHAT IS IT, MATSUNO?

Ramza didnt die. He just obviously fled and started a new life in peace and far from battle (since everyone thought they died).
Dont forget the church ruled the world and they would never leave him in peace (they also burned olan).

>>1545078
>>Game comes out, Matsuno says the game has nothing to do with Ivalice and any connections are only fan service


Yes, you're right. Vagrant story is set many years (maybe centuries) after fft. The church of glabados doesnt exist anymore and the zodiac brave story is known (dont forget that the church covered the truth and fft was just a descendant of olan durai telling you the true story of ramza).

>>1545373
Doesn't Vagrant Story also have a preface quoting Alazlam Durai? He's supposed to be a prominent historian of medieval Ivalician history, or something.

Will there ever be another game set in Ivalice?

I know Matsuno doesn't have so much bad blood with Square that he wasn't willing to work on the Tactics Ogre remake. So what gives? And what the hell has Square's ex-Quest team even been doing since then?

>>1545381
>Alazlam Durai
That is the guy that descends from Olan (dont ask me how olan left descendants since he got burned alive so young by the church). He is the narrator of final fantasy tactics and there's a brief quote on the beggining of VG by him.
That is the major reason that makes me think vagrant story is set many centuries after fft.

>>1545390
Wasn't Olan Alazlam's great-great-great-great uncle or something?

>>1544772

It was only ambiguous to Duran as the ending/game was supposedly written from his point of view. That was the point.

>>1545397
The game files say he was a descendant of Olan.

Is St. Ivalice the present-day Ivalice?

All final fantasies take place in different time periods on the same planet.

Crystals and the people using them keep changing the face of the world

>>1545494
FFX-2 Ultimania states that FF7 takes place a few thousand years after X after Shinra finds a way to harness the farplane, and eventually that becomes a means of intergalactic travel. It's more of a "Same Universe" thing.

>>1545494
Source: your buttocks.

>>1544772
I always assumed that he was alive anyways, and the game is amazing as well is the story. It has not been ruined even in the slightest

That's stupid. There is literally no way ramza could have gotten out of the final battle without bringing in some deus ex machina

This is literally just "nah mang they all lived happily ever after okay now stop bothering me pls fuck off"

>>1545494
Dissidia proves that theory false. All Final Fantasy games take place in a common cosmos across different dimensions, which explains how some worlds have common elements, but not all. It even lays out the possibility that each dimension might have alternate, mirrored dimensions with slight differences (ie FF1 now has two official dimensions, that of World A, which we know, and World B, which was introduced for Dissidia.)

You don't think Dissidia is canon? Fine. There's no reason you shouldn't consider it canon, but whatever. It's the closest thing to an official explanation as we've ever gotten, so believe it or don't.

Ivalace was a country engulfed into the rift, much like Cid. This is why there are so many places that go by the same name that are nothing alike. Much like Cid.

>>1544772
>ending was never meant to be ambigious

They don't even tell you if Ovelia succeeded in killing Delita or not.

Ramza obviously survived though and saw that Delita may have done bad things, but revealing the truth would do more harm than good and let it go finally.

Er... I thought it showed Ramza riding a chocobo in the last CGI after you beat the game?

>>1545569
That wasn't CGI

>>1544902
>the guy who wrote the game has no say in what happened

Pretty much, yeah. Once an author releases a work he has no control over how it is perceived by the audience. He can say what he intended until he's blue in the face, but if I want to interpret it differently then that is my god given right.

>>1545119
You know, I always thought about it like this:

>The portal to/from the realm of the dead got blown up
>The evil gad angel guy got revived
>Evil god angel guy had to get to Earth somehow, obviously had the power to do it
>Ramza beat him
>Therefore Ramza has more power
>Ramza must be able to escape the death realm

Alternatively: He had the 12 zodiac stones and did something something got free.

>>1545568
>They don't even tell you if Ovelia succeeded in killing Delita or not.

Yes they do.

>>1545570
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XLcyvjPgc4

>>1545576
No they don't.

Delita's cause of death is never confirmed.

>>1545542
>I can kill the evil death god in the death realm but I cannot find my way back home

Even the Quantum Leap guy made it back home.

>>1545582
The length of his reign is enough to tell you she didn't succeed.

>>1545585
But the final scene is out of time.

Either, she did it immediately after Ramza's supposed demise, he survived, and lived as a good king.

Or, it took place years afterwards, and Ovelia finally snapped and killed him in their later years after he had been a good king.

Also, I wonder what the fallout of that would have been.

>Delita and Ramza kills everyone who is trying to get the throne
>Delita marries Ovelia who is one of the two legitimate heirs of the throne remaining (the other being the king baby)
>His claim to the throne is Ovelia
>Ovelia stabs him, he kills Ovelia
>He still gets to be king

>>1545594
The latter isn't likely because the ending doesn't feature any new sprites or portraits to reflect aging. She also specifically references Ramza, and it'd make sense she'd lose it soon after his funeral. Nothing in the game supports the idea that she waited years before attempting to kill Delita.

>>1545619
True enough, and upon reflection, it isn't surprising that no one stopped Delita from being king. They only opposed baby king and Larg because it would have meant crazy queen Rivulia kept power, which is why the lords pushed Goltana and Ovelia. (of course, the church made matters worse)

The fact they ahd someone competent, battle tested, of age and male on the throne was probably good enough.

>>1545594
>>1545619

Yeah, Delita's scene at the was an AT WHAT COST type deal; it was obvious that he lived, but it was meant to show that at least for one brief dark moment he actually felt the slightest hint of remorse for his actions, at least in terms of his friendship to Ramza.

FUCK what he did to Ovelia though. I wish she fucking killed him.

>>1545652
I really don't get Delita's grief at the end.

He lost everything he cared about in order to make sure he had to power that it would never happen to anyone else.

Ramza, to Delita, lost everything, including his life.

I really don't see how Delita can be envious of Ramza's uncompromised principals when it brought him nothing in the end (aside from saving the world, but Delita couldn't have known that.)

And I am surprised Delita didn't go after the Church in the end, he probably could have.

>>1545652
>My wife, in her distress, stabs me, intending to kill me
>You shouldn't have killed her defending yourself.

Delita was all kinds of justified, and you expect a fighter of his calibre NOT to counteract fatally to an attempt on his life?

>>1545687
Ramza didn't die.

DELITA DID NOTHING WRONG

>>1545715
He hardly did anything at all. I don't know why the fanbase thinks he's some kind of grand manipulator.

>>1545716
He killed at least Goltana if I remember correctly.
And scammed that female spy he eventually offed.
Rose through the ranks without being perceieved as a threat.

>>1545691

Well, one of the major sideplots throughout the game is Ovelia's despair at being a pawn in all the stupid nefarious schemes going on; She thought Delita would finally be someone who cared for her as a person, only to have him be just like everyone else in the end; worse actually because he manipulated her on a personal level to boot.

She just wanted to be happy, dammit ;-;

>>1545721
Who's to say his love wasn't genuine? They were both abused pawns and orphans. They had a lot in common, and Delita could very well have honestly cared for her.

Although, at that point, she was justifiably sceptical and Delita was in too deep to be reliable.

>>1545687
Sometimes it's not about what you get in the end; perhaps he was just faltering in his conviction with regard to justify his means with the intended ends after seeing a man who may have died, and even failed in his ultimate quest from that perspective, but did so admirably and without any deviance from his ideals.

>>1545687

He may have thought Ramza died, but he did so surrounded by a bunch of true friends, saving his sister and inadvertently the world; not for honor or glory, but because it was the right thing to do.

Delita was smart enough; he knew Ramza probably survived whatever happened and that the 'official' story was anything But, but he was already so deep into the game of politics at that point that he had no realistic way or even want to back out of it.

>>1545730

He outright calls her some insulting names or whatever when he stabs her. It's meant to confirm her suspicions to you, and to show just how far he's fallen, leading into his small lament. That's the whole point of the scene.

>>1545732
>>1545687

Delita's final words (from the original, I never played War of the Lions)

"...Ramza, what did you get?"

It can't get more ambiguous than that?

What characteristic did you get that made you stronger than me?
What did you get in the end?
WHat did you understand that I never did?

Was the War of Lions translation any less ambiguous?


...Although, I can see how he would be eternally lonely from then forth. The last person alive he could trust just tried to stab him. He was just sentenced to a lifetime of loneliness, unable to trust anyone ever again.

PSP Delita final line:

>Delita: Did you get your end in all of this, Ramza? I...I got this.

Hm. Much more clear that he is questioning if all his efforts were truly worth it.

Do you think he made a grave for his sister with the biggest fucking gravestone king money could buy?

>>1545771

Maybe earlier on in his life; by the time of the end he probably no longer cared.

>>1545758
Well yeah, but like think of that romantically. Poetically. Dramatically. Questioning this as an ending piece is telling of his questioning of his own actions and conviction; he wants to know what Ramza 'got out of it' because that's how his thought process is: you do things to get things. He either isn't seeing that doing something righteous can be fulfilling in and of itself, or is perhaps wondering if he should have lived in such a way.

Medieval drama at its finest.

>>1545795
Even so, the inverse question is equally important:

What did you want?

Delita wanted either to avenge his sister or change the system so it was more fair to the common man. If you go for a stretch, he just wanted to make the royals feel small and powerless like he had felt.

But what did Ramza want? Really, what did he want in the end?
The only thing I can think of is either fairness or justice or peace. I really cannot put my finger on what Ramza wanted, because I don't think even he knew why he was doing what he was doing other than trying his best to be honourable, whatever that means.

>>1545795
I enjoy that "What did you get out of the deal, Ramza."

Didn't think of that one.

>>1545809
Rams a was trying to be like his father balbanes, a true and honorable knight that served to keep Ivalice a fair and safe place. He was the eternal optomist im that he believed that things could and should be better for all those that live in ivalice.

>>1545816
Wtf autocorrect,
Ramza* and in*

>>1545816
But his method was flawed. The royals were not good people. At best, the swath of destruction of the Lion War took out all the corrupt royals at the top and gave the system a chance to start kind of clean.

I also find it hard to believe Balbanes never played the politics game, but that might be my personal cynicism.

>Warrior always plays fair.
>Wins battles like a boss anyways.
>Garners the respect of the people, his men, the royals, even his enemies.
>Inspires others to act like him
>Somehow doesn't get dragged into the politics game, and no one in the game tries to fuck him over (except when his son poisoned his ass)

I wonder how Balbanes did it.

>>1545809

What? No? Ramza says outright that he doesn't care about any of that shit anymore; that's the whole point of his Character Arc. Ramza did it because he felt it was the right thing to do, for him and him alone.

This whole thread is kinda blowing me away; the game wasn't ambiguous at all, aside from that whack-ass translation the original got.

>Weigraf before becoming corrupt wanted the same thing Delita and Ramza wanted

Imagine if instea of being crushed like ants, Ramza and Weigraf took the Death Corps and made a fourth player in the game

It would be like I was really playing Tactics Ogre

>>1545827
My guess is he just never talked about that part of his life, especially not to Ramza

>>1545816
>>1545827

Buh. He wasn't even trying to emulate his father or family anymore by that point. That delusion was shattered years ago.

The whole point of the game is a contrast of Ramza and Delita's character/actions in reference to rejecting their ideals by way of two specific events. Tietra's death is the first; The attempt on Ovelia at the church is the second. You could even argue that the second event isn't even key, it was just what that got Ramza out of his depression/funk; Delita already seems galvanized toward his ultimate goal by that point.

All that other shit about stones and Zodiac Braves and politics and Saint Ajora is just fluff.

>>1545904
What specific ideals did Ramza and Delita reject?

>>1545904
It is interesting to watch those two counterparts Lives play out in contrasting manners. I really do love this game.

>>1545920
Funny how they both ultimately succeed.
But who succeeded more?

>>1545927
It's arguable.
Ramza saves the world but is forever a heretic, albeit he doesn't care about being hated. He in the short term makes the largest impact.
For delita
We can assume he made drastic changes in the power of the common man as well as reducing the strength of nobility as well as fostering a more equal nation. However, it is inferable that he lives in solitude for the remainder of his life since he has either killed or casted off all those involved in his life. I wish delita stayed with the party, I love his character.

>>1545916

They're shown as trying to play the aristocracy game, toeing the line of their societal norms (family, status, rank, blah blah) and doing what they're told as youths. Algus is where those beliefs start to break down; Tietra's murder conclusively shatters them.

>>1545949
But that is believing that the aristocracy game is immoral.

The aristocrats were immoral because they were not doing as they should, protecting the people and being honourable.

I don't think Ramza was fighting the system so much as the people who ran it.

>>1545960

In terms/context of the game it was immoral; at first by petty human standards, later by crazy demon nonsense. Ramza fought it because it *was* his whole world.

>>1546001
I may be misunderstanding your reply, so I am going to try and reiterate to see if you rreiterate to make it clearer.

Ramza had no problem with the aristocracy, he had a problem with aristocrats that did not value life. The aristocracy may have been his whole world, but he supported those that could help him improve the system, not tear it down. More often than note, his only goal was to save lives and convince others to stop taking lives.

At no time did he actively try to destroy the system, he was just trying to root out evil in the system.

On the human scale, that meant stopping those that were abusing the situation for their benefit, and on the monster level it meant taking down Ajora, not destroying the Church.

>>1544772
Completely different from the topic but,
I just won the velius battle on my final turn before ramza turned crystal with my only surviving member performing jump. Really was an exciting moment considering I usually don't beat that battle my first try.

>>1546026

I think he fought the aristocracy outright, at first by choice, but later by necessity. They, by way of the Church, were Everything in the world of Ivalice, so he no choice but to fight them. I don't think the Church was an explicit target for him, but they were Evil and Wrong in causing most of the bullshit, so he was definitely against them in the grand scheme of things.

That probably still sounds confusing.

>>1546087

I ended the game with Hamedo on the final before one of my dudes would have turned Crystal. I would have reset had it happend; NO MAN/WOMAN LEFT BEHIND

>>1546090
I think we have a perspective problem.

I find that fighting aristocrats does not necessarily mean you are fighting the aristocracy, whereas it seems you do believe fighting aristocrats means fighting the aristocracy.

I include the Church leaders as aristocrats by the way.

>>1546094
>NO MAN LEFT BEHIND

>Battle
>Main lifegiver goes down
>Send over Phoenix down backup
>Phoenix Down has a height of 0
>Character died on a square with no level land next to it.
>Cannot use Phoenix down because throw item is for fags
>No one else has life
>Desperate rush to finish the battle in less than 3 turns
>Rage quit as they crystalize

>>1546094
You and I are alike. I will never allow a character to crystallize from my squad. Do you use a team of generics as well?

>>1546104
The amount of times that I have been there

>All Chocobo Enemy random encounter destroy my party worse than any story battle

Seriously, fuck them.

>>1546115
The black and red ones are tough man

>>1546124
The yellow chocobo that retreats with a movement range greater than any of mycharacters to cast choco heal on itself and three of its buddies can go fuck himself too.

>The fight with Gafgarion where Ramza gets separated by the gate
>I had built Ramza as a Thief because why the fuck not
>Realize Ramza will be destroyed by Gafgarion as he hits like a truck against jobs like Thief
>Only have one chance
>Steal: Weapon = 3% success
>It works on the first try
>Gafgarion does 3 damage per hit without his weapon

My best memory of this game

>>1544793
Because Tactics Advance doesn't take place in the real Ivalice.

>>1545572
You're an idiot.

>>1546103
generic life is the only life in every SRPG

>>1546159
>random guy appears 10 years later and tries to change established canon through a twitter post
excuse me while i don't give a fuck

>>1546210
He made it canon in the first place.

>>1546103

I had all Generics save Agrias, and even then, I'd send her generic knights out on the town missions.

>>1546212
no he didnt, square did. he may have made suggestions for the story and dialogue, but it was square that made the approvals and gave the authority. this washed up twitter hack could never make any sort of additions to the FFT universe on his own without square enix's attorneys preparing some very serious paperwork. he's just a relatively minor employee from many years ago that's desperately grasping for attention in his midlife crisis. nobody played FFT for the story anyway, it was basically all just a pretext.

>>1546228
If nobody played it for the story then why are you getting so bent out of shape over it?

>>1546210
>>1546228

Holy shit; people are really this stupid? It was only ambiguous from Olan's perspective. THAT WAS THE FUCKING POINT YOU JACKHOLE JESUS FUCK

The fact that he has to spell it out even after all this time is ridiculous. More so that y'all are so goddamned stupid

>>1544904
You're the same guy who keeps saying that Joker totally raped Barbara Gordon in The Killing Joke, even though Alan Moore keeps saying that that's not what happened, aren't you?

>>1546229
you mistake me, I'm bent out of shape naturally. I'm one of those guys that shits up almost every /vr/ thread, only I don't have a tripcode

>>1546242
>I'm one of those guys that shits up almost every /vr/ thread
Clearly.

>Blade Grasp was overpowered as fuck in the original
>Expect it to be nerfed in WoTL
>It doesn't get nerfed

Fuck them for giving Marquis Eldmore innate Safeguard though. I just want full Genji gear.

and fuck the Midlight dungeon. Could have given a better reward than a useless new character.

>>1546253
They'd have to rebuild the game from the ground up to make it balanced.

Part of the game's appeal is how ridiculous you can make your characters become.

>>1544772
> charge time was never meant to exist

I see that pretty much the whole thread skipped this point. Just want to say as someone that has torn apart the game's assembly code, the reason I read elsewhere that gave this idea form [that the PSX couldn't handle everything at once and CT was used as a loading time] is pure bullshit. Everything the does happens as you see it on the screen. You don't have to charge Bahamut for 7 turns so it has time to load. Go hack the CT for the skill down to 0 and it works just fine. This whole 'charge time was never meant to exist' thing is the purest form of unfounded bullshit and should stopped being repeated by anyone.

>>1546115
I thought the chocobo enemy random encounters were not as bad as those fights with the squids that could make your party go nuts

>>1546237
>it was only ambiguous from the only perspective we get!
Are you dense?

>>1545385
I'd like to see a present-day St. Ivalice story.

>>1546535
Was that what the sentence was supposed to mean? That would definitely be really stupid if someone were to claim that.

I wish I know where the source of that supposed original statement but when I read it, I interpreted it as "some kind of miscommunication happened and the concept of spells needing time to charge before being unleashed was invented"

>>1545385

Wasn't FFXII set in Ivalice? Well, a version of Ivalice.

I don't think we'll ever see FFT Ivalice again, just FFTA Ivalice.

>>1546614
Man fuck algus. I've never hated a character as much as him.

>>1546604
http://kotaku.com/final-fantasy-tactics-wasnt-supposed-to-have-casting-t-1519947150

There ya go. It was something Matsuno said and it is completely, 100%, unarguably NOT TRUE. The game loads the map and sprites at the start of each game event but after that all of the spell effects are loaded, played and removed from data right when the skill is used and you see the skill name appear at the top of the screen. Charge Times do NOT function as loading times for graphics or anything else. Anyone with a debugger in their emulator can run the game and confirm this themselves.

>>1545553

It's explained at the end of FF14 ARR.

Theres a giant 'mother crystal' inside the void inbetween worlds/realities. From that crystal, all the other crystals of the Final Fantasy games comes from. The 4 elemental crystals in the early games, the Espers in 6, Materia in 7, so on and so forth. All the games take place in the same world, just different dimensions/realities which are all linked together via the Mother Crystal.

>>1546614
Yeah I thought it was so weird. At first I felt sorry for him when you first meet him, then something seems off and then over time you're like "Holy shit, this guy is beyond scum"

I still want to see a proper re-translation of this game. None of that pseudo-shakespeare, it just comes off as childish and silly to me. I don't mind that they speak modern as long as it's a much more accurate translation than the broken engrish we get in FFT.

>>1546906
>Forcing an explanation
Why can't they just leave it as is? Not everything needs to be explained. That's why I get annoyed with all these Zelda timelines and crap. Just let each game be its own thing and it shines way better. Otherwise to tie them into one little nice bow just tones down everything.

I was actually really frustrated that they had to put FF7 together with FFX. Seriously, the worlds look nothing alike, feel nothing alike and have almost nothing linked to them besides the name Shinra. Once they tied them together it started looking like one big fan fiction

>>1546862
Or anyone who sharks in No Charge on a team of five summoners.

>>1546918
The FFX/7 thing is bullshit. The kid was named Shinra as an homage to the older games. Square did this ALL the time in their games, and this was no different.

Then some unofficial strategy guide came out and said "oh yeah they're totally connected!" which doesn't even make sense.

If Shinra from FFX is able to create interstellar travel and ends up colonizing an entire world, then why are they just barely able to achieve space travel with rockets in FF7?

>>1546918
>>1546931
Did you know that Final Fantasy takes place in the Star Wars universe?

>>1546936
Did you know that I fucked you're mom?

The nice thing that I've learned about video-games is that I can ignore whatever story elements, inside or outside, I don't like. I learned it from that holy disciple of George Lucas, Yoshio Sakamoto.

I still don't know how anything in Vagrant Story fits with Ivalice, but that's pretty inconsequential in the long run.

>>1546931
>Then some unofficial strategy guide came out

Ignorance must be bliss.

>>1546906

Yeah, that jibes up with what Dissidia established - all the heroes are from different dimensions. It never stated how their cosmos was composed, though. I guess this is just the completion of that theory?

>>1546931
Actually, the Cetra were supposedly the ones with the tech. Which would make shinra and his sister some sort of...ancients...different from other people. Hmm.

Also i noticed this
Aurons celestial weapon is the Masamune
He keeps one arm hidden (one wing)
He is undead (angel?)

Shit. Please stop, because i could go on all day with this shit.

>>1544913
>can't into ambiguity

>>1545827

Balbanes just worked really hard and was ridiculously talented as a knight. There's no indication he had any political power.

Also politics isn't necessarily about power. Someimes, especially in say office politics, it's about just putting as brave or calm a face so tension don't arise.

>>1547880
Undeads aren't angels. And he doesn't hide the arm all the time, it comes out for for SRS BSNS.

>>1546104
>Send over Phoenix down backup
>Phoenix Down has a height of 0
It doesn't. The only reviving skill with a height of 0 is Monk's Revive.

>>1546913
There is something wrong with your translation if broken engrish sounds a lot better than it.

>>1548030
Never see any samurai movies? Auron is a ronin.