/vr/ - Retro Games

complicated to work with for developers compared to PS1

no exclusive new sonic game

and the game cases shattered if you looked at them wrong

Bernie Stolar.

Sega of Japan being ass blasted over America doing a better job than they did with the Genesis screwing over anyone who got a Saturn out of Japan.

Sega consoles always looked so cheap, like they were bootlegs of something else.
Look at that, that looks like something you'd expect some Romanian in a tracksuit would sell off his van.
Notable exception to the Dreamcast which was pretty good looking.

Marketing outside Japan.

It did pretty well in its home country, thanks to this motherfucker.

>>1523685
That and it actually had more than four games worth playing in Japan.

>Designing a primarily 2D system when 3D was the future (SEGA even aided in this at arcades with such titles as Daytona USA and Virtua Fighter), which resulted in Sega having to rush together a Frankenstein console that could do both 3D (badly) and 2D capability
>Making the hardware difficult to program for
>SEGA of Japan CEO's being assholes
>SEGA of America lacking Tom Kalinske's PR powers and leadership
>Killing the console early in favor of Dreamcast, which pissed off several developers, like EA and Camelot
>Sony being too strong of competition
>No Sanic 4

Am I forgetting anything?

Sega failed to predict the massive impact that people with shit taste would have on the gaming industry in subsequent generations.

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned that for its time, the Saturn was prohibitively expensive. It used to be one of the go-to jokes about it, just as with NEO-GEO. Did everyone forget that when the PS3 launched?

>>1523691
those 4 are?

>>1523740
I think you nailed it dude, n64 fans prove this point.

>>1523802
>>>/v/

Nobody mentioned the Genesis addons? Really?

>>1523821
>addons
>s

I thought it was exclusively the 32x. The CD wasn't a huge hit, but it wasn't a total clusterfuck either

>>1523664
It would be easier to list what went right, but here we go.

>In fighting between Sega Japan and NA.
>continued focus on 2D while other systems hyped 3D
>lower specs than competitors in some regards, particularly for 3D
>complicated hardware slapped together to boast semi-okay specs Atari Jaguar style
>difficult to dev for due to said wonky tech
>difficult to design for due to multiple verions of said wonky tech
>heavy advertising focusing on weird artsy shit (read bald women with rings) rather than the old Genesis loud focus on games (PS3 and PS1 much moment of the past)
>severe lack of western releases
>combined the downsides of CDs like the PS1 with the downsides of N64s modular design and need for expansions
>Producing a console that fell behind previously and then releasing lifesupport addons that soon were abandoned without content

Ya basically there adverts sucked dick with nothing of the old Sega yelling at you charm and a complete lack of reliability in the company to put games on the damn system did it in.

That said its one of the most powerful 2D gaming consoles, just blew at 3D and other things. And if its many good titles had been western released to give a good roster I'ld still would take it over the N64's barren library. But with little support and being left to die in the west it just didn't make it.

>>1523810
no you fuck off to /v/ 3d platformers and other terrible games are at least welcome there, you ruined muh arcade supremacy you filthy casual faget

>>1523684
But the Saturn looks, and IS robust as fuck.
I dropped one down a flight of stairs once and it was completely fine.
The same can't be said for the PS1 my ex threw down those same stairs when she was pissed off with me.

>>1523810
He has a point though. Granted, the Saturn was in fact a much more substantial pile of shit than the N64, but the N64 itself was a relative failure that was kept alive for it's entire run by 5 games. A run that began after the PS1's yet ended beforehand because of shit support and even moreso shit sales...

The Playstation was the best choice at the time because there was literally something for everyone, and then some. More genres, more games in each genre. more original takes on ideas. More new genres than any other console in history. ect. Even had a better format than the N64 (CDs are and will forever be a better option than carts)

The N64 did open ended item collecting platformers and FPS' better, period. And those genres were covered by a small selection of games. The PS1 did everything else better. The Saturn did 2D better than either competitor, but failed to provide many (if any) 2D titles outside Super Jap land. And the ones released there are literally 99% Animu shit.

Anyone who seriously thinks that the Saturn or N64 are anything more than nostalgic faves or oddities that make collectors feel warm inside are delusional.

They were shit then, they are shit now. The best team won. Not only in terms of sales, but AAA titles, overall quality, variety as well as paying attention to the market and giving gamers what they actually wanted.

Unlike Sega who assumed all we wanted as a more powerful Genesis and Nintendo who was happy to tell us what we wanted.

>>1523664
Jews

Internals kind of doofy for "32 bit"
No Sonic game
Surprise launch backfired
Sega was kind of in the red after Sega CD/32X

>>1523871
>tfw you live a lifestyle in which a particular staircase in your house has had more than one console go down

>>1523774
>Panzer Dragoon
>Tomb Raider
>Daytona USA
>Virtua Fighter

Kids fell for Sony marketing.

>>1523878
>was kept alive for it's entire run by 5 games
those 5 being mario 64, oot, goldeneye, and...?

>>1523939
Saturn was half dead on arrival and long since toast before Sony had good marketing.

The original Sony marketing wasn't much better than Saturn, it was a talking purple head for an unknown contender. Was a long while before Sophia and Crash took over for that.

>>1523878

The N64 managed to sell a few million units more than Sega Genesis, I don't consider those consoles to have been commercial failures. After all, N64 was very profitable for Nintendo, although they obviously didn't like being dwarfed by Sony and losing their dominance.

N64 will never be a hipster console for collectors (like Saturn or Turbografx) because:
1) It has the most critically acclaimed game ever, Ocarina of Time
2) It has one of the most influential games ever, Mario 64, and many games that sold a lot, like Mario Kart, Smash Bros, Golden Eye, even Star Fox 64 sold 4 million units.
3) It sold 20 million units in the USA, almost as much as Super Nintendo there (it was a failure in the rest of the world), and being big in the USA is very important.
A British pop/rock musician like Robbie Williams, who is very popular all over the world, but never became popular in the USA, is less important than other british musicians who are big in the USA, even if Robbie sells more.

(I am not saying that is good or fair, just that that is the way the world works, I am latin american btw)

>>1523982
>Robbie Williams
Fuck you for mentioning him.

That goddamn Millennium song is in my head again, and it's been over ten years since I heard it.

>>1523664
it targeted the call of duty crowd before it existed.

>>1523994
Better than having Rock DJ in your head

>>1523878
>(CDs are and will forever be a better option than carts)
PSP begs to differ
>The PS1 did everything else better.
N64 had many more and better arcade racers

>>1524024
>Using a handheld as your example :DDD

>Racing Games

You're grasping at straws child.

>>1524024

I didnt know the N64 had Gran Turismo, Driver and Need for Speed.

>>1523878
You're pretty worked up over the N64.

It was a good secondary console, after the PS1. It had a small enough library of good Nintendo games to be worthwhile. The same cannot be said for the Gamecube (a couple of third-party games, one or two Nintendo games).

I like the Saturn, but the system lacks a lot of charm and personality that typify the Genesis and Dreamcast. Outside of a few shining exceptions, Sega's first-party Saturn games were pretty lame. Again, this is not a problem with the Genesis and Dreamcast.

>>1523672
>Bernie Stolar.

He is the popular scapegoat, but truth is he was just Sega of Japans yes-man.

I'm not denying that he had stupid moves (like choosing to not bring over all the great arcade games because he wanted the Saturn to have a more mature image). But it was SoJ who forced both him and Kalinske to do stupid shit that doomed the Saturn years before it was even released.

>>1523871
I have a Saturn today that can read a cracked in half disc without even skipping the cd audio.

Back in 1998 I already knew people who had their Playstations incapable of reading some original discs.

>>1524064
I didn't know Gran Turismo and Driver were "arcade racers".

>>1524114
>I'm not denying that he had stupid moves (like choosing to not bring over all the great arcade games because he wanted the Saturn to have a more mature image

That wasn't his decision. What was brought over from Japan was SOJ's decision.

>>1524114
SoJ didn't make him go "we don't want RPGs, what we want is 3d action titles" when asking any 14/15 year old would've let you know that anything containing the words RPG and JAPAN was worth its weight in gold, as in fact FF7 proved not even months later. Guy was an idiot suit in a place of power over something he knew jack and shit about.

>Hardly any localized JRPGs.

Where the fuck was Sakura Wars, Wachenroder, Black/Matrix, Soldnerschild, etc? The Playstation and FF7 proved that JRPGs had a market in the west. Why didn't Sega try to capitalize on that?

>No main Sonic

Sega of America was making decent progress with Sonic X-treme, but Sega of Japan got butthurt that America was doing a better job than them. They were using Yuji Naka's engine he made for NiGHTS. I think Naka himself ordered them to stop using his engine.

>>1524231
Xtreme looked really awful though. Unless people have a thing for fish-eye lenses.

>>1524241
Better than nothing.

SA1 and SA2 were awful, too. But you still see plenty of Sonic autists defending them to the death.

I'm of the opinion that gamers forgive and forget and will buy a system if the games are there, so I don't necessarily agree with the popular sentiment that consumers didn't buy the system because they lost trust in the brand. Gamers got back on board with Sega (albeit temporarily) with the Dreamcast, since it arguably had the greatest selection of launch titles in history.

In addition to all the other things mentioned (hard to develop for, high price tag), what doomed the Saturn was that ill conceived surprise launch fiasco. Gamers aren't going to flock to buy a 400.00 system in the Summer with its launch titles being a bad Daytona port, Panzer Dragoon (great game, but an unknown IP at the time), Clockwork Knight, and Worldwide Soccer. And even if people wanted the system, there's stories of retailers only getting a handful of Saturns at launch and not receiving resupplies until months later.

If Sega had a proper Sonic game ready to go along with some polished arcade ports, an original IP (like Panzer Dragoon) and maybe something like an "arcade perfect" port of Super Street Fighter, things would've been very different.

It still wouldn't have won the generation, but it wouldn't be known as the massive commercial failure it is today.

That said, from a gamers' standpoint, nothing really went wrong. For all its flaws, the Saturn wound up having a terrific library that competes with the Playstation and surpasses the N64.

>>1524130

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

>>1523664
Nothing it's awesome

The President of SEGA America at the time did not allow many Japanese games, especially RPGs, to come to America, stating that they were "Too nerdy".

He was basically the worst person to run a video game company.

>>1524295
People keep saying this shit while not giving any source of info.

http://forums.sega.com/archive/index.php/t-307303.html

>A lot of Saturn gamers from that day still blame Stolar and his Five Star Games Policy for the dearth of good Saturn titles in 1997 and 1998, even though in truth it had very little to do with them. It was Sega's own executives over in Japan and not Bernie Stolar who was calling the shots as to which Saturn titles would make it across the pond. He had more pressing concerns to worry about - like ensure that the Saturn left this world with some grace while he readied Sega's next system for its eventual market debut.

>>1524297
As much as Stolar was kind of retarded, SOJ from 1994-1998 was literally the worst.

remember kids, they let the 32x project happen
Even though it was an SOA design, SOJ let it happen, knowing when the Saturn was releasing.

And hell, their timing with the Dreamcast cost them face in Japan (Saturn lasted 1994-1998, only around four years even though it did well there) and the shit reputation the Saturn and 32X had given them in the west made some buyers and devs a bit leery of the DC.

SOJ is awful. They seemed to hold a retarded grudge against their western counterparts.
fuck internal politics

on the other hand, Sega made some of the best arcade games from 1994-2003, so they weren't completely fucking up during that time

Sega's failure with the Saturn and Dreamcast can both be directly traced to simple consumer and developer dissatisfaction, all starting with the CD and 32X.

tried to compensate with a "FIRST"- competitive CD based console...but it sucked to program for. Now they sit with the Saturn earning them back some consumer trust...but developers are less interested than ever, which means: No games...which in turn pisses off consumers. So. another fail.

Everything they did after the Genesis was one step forward, two steps back.

>>1524297
>maybe if I link to my own post on another forum a SECOND time in the same thread people will start to take me seriously

>>1524268
GT is still a sim tho.

>>1524229
>as in fact FF7 proved not even months later

FF7 was the exception, not the norm. Also a trend setter. RPGs weren't that popular before it. And it came out in late 1997, when the Saturn was already dead in the US.

And it was SoJ who made them do the 32x, which alienated developers and publishers.
And it was SoJ who made them launch the Saturn early, which alienated several retailers which didn't get units at the launch (so much that they never ever carried Saturns afterwards), alienated users due to NO GAMES being ready at launch, and allowed Sony to steal the limelight on E3 with a conference that consisted of saying "299 US Dollars" and nothing else.

>>1524309
>SOJ is awful. They seemed to hold a retarded grudge against their western counterparts.

It was envy. SOJ couldn't sell their consoles for shit compared to Nintendo in japan. SOA managed to grab 60% of a market where Nintendo had a monopoly a few years prior.

The president of Sega even flat out told the Japanese executive board "why can't you be as good as the americans?".

So SoJ then put a fucking leash on SOA, and transition over to the Saturn, despite the Genesis still being extremely strong and growing in America.

1) The Saturn is actually better built and more robust than the Playstation. It never had overheating problems for one.

2) Bernie Stolar is the popular scapegoat for Saturn supporters so they can vent on somebody having "bet" on the wrong team. Stolar correctly identified that niche games have a niche market. Let's not kid ourselves, none of those non-localized Saturn JRPGs had the budget of FF7 sufficient to make a big impact.

It's kind of silly how half of /vr/ seems to believe that SoA could do no wrong and would have made the Saturn a booming success were they not thwarted by the small minded jealousy of those craven orientals across the Pacific.

Both SoA and SoJ made really stupid decisions in that era. Sure, they had a rivalry that definitely ended up hurting the company in the long run, but they both made terrible decisions on their own. Kalinske himself admits that SoA held unrealistic expectations for the success of the 32X, while SoJ definitely held unrealistic expectations for the success of the Saturn overseas. If I were the point out one thing that caused Sega to fail, it would be their horrible tendency to get cold feet. They would invest money into developing a new console, and then think it was a complete failure if it didn't manage to dominate the market in two years. Sony, by contrast, sold the Playstation at a loss to compete with the Saturn, knowing in the long term it would give them the advantage.

>>1523920
>No Burning Rangers
>No Magic Knight Rayearth
>No Astal
>No Shining Wisdom
>No Dragon Force

It's sad that 4 out of 5 of these games nobody can afford if you have a modded Saturn or a shitton of disposable income.

>>1524794
>Half of /vr/
>Implying it's not just Bernie trying to make himself look good in front of younger people who were not around when the Saturn came out

>>1524802
You can probably find Astal and Shining Wisdom at reasonable prices if you are patient. I paid $50 for Shining Wisdom at an old games store, and considering the actual quality of Shining Wisdom, that's definitely overpaying (anything more than $18 for Astal is definitely overpaying as well).

You can spend an assload on Burning Rangers, or put down $50ish on Bulk Slash and get the far better game.

Dragon Force is good; you more or less have to get lucky on an auction (I did when I got the disc for $35ish).

The biggest hype games are going to be overpriced, but often-times games of good-if-not-better quality can be found at affordable prices, like GunGriffon, Galactic Attack, Darius Gaiden, Dark Savior, and Panzer Dragoon Zwei.

>>1524802
>Burning Rangers

Average 3d platformer with problematic controls and camera, if it didn't have nice visuals and Sonic Teams name on it, no one would've cared.

>Astal

Average 2d platformer, a genre that was already dying out, so it didn't have real competition (there was... Dragonheart and Skeleton Warriors? And in Europe, Keio Flying Squadron, but Astal was not released in Europe).

>shining wisdom

You mean Shining Force 3.

>>1523761
>remember seeing in some store the 32x for 150€
>later saw the saturn for 450€ + VF or no game at all
Jesus fucking christ. I had to wait like 2 or 3 years for half price to have one. Then I saw PD Saga on there for 150€ and didn't know what the fuck was going on anymore.

>>1524820
>1995, one of the best years for sidescrollers
>the genre was already dying out
Stop trolling.

I never knew Saturn was primarily a 2D system.

What were the best 3D games?

>>1523664
Everything.

Lots of awesome games never saw a release outside of Japan.
Sega sucks at Sega of America sucked at marketing.
The Playstation was just too attractive for developers.

FACTS:
>Expensive price tag
>Piss poor marketing outside of Japan
>PS1 was easier to develop for
>Bernie Stolar wanted MUH DREAMCAST (which isn't a bad thing because Dreamcast is a great system)
>Only a few gems, but as I stated earlier they were not marketed very well so people brushed it off.

OPINION:
>The NA/PAL console looks ugly compared to the Japanese variants
>People at the time might have thought Saturn was just some weird Genesis/CD/32x combo.
>3D IS TEH FUTURE
>North America had absolutely disgusting game covers.

>>1525208
NiGHTS

>>1525210
Not clever.

>>1524089
>The same cannot be said for the Gamecube (a couple of third-party games, one or two Nintendo games).
Really? There are way more good Gamecube games than that.

>>1524498
That post actually has a source, but again, it's just a lot of westerners trying to shift the blame from SoA to SoJ with not a single SoJ guy having any say. I'd take that view as seriously as I'd take Stolar being an imbecile.

>>1524723
>And it came out in late 1997, when Stolar had declared the Saturn was already dead in the US.

FTFY

>>1525208
The best 3d games for the Saturn that I've played were Bulk Slash and GunGriffon. Panzer Dragoon games as well.

I guess you could add Tomb Raider and Resident Evil, but why would you pay extra for the Saturn versions?

>96 or 97
>had to invite classmates because of some school work
>take a break of the work and play some Saygah Setrone
>HEY ANON! YOU HAVE THAT ARCADE FIGHTER! HOW DID YOU...
>OH SWEET JESUS! You have a DBZ game! Who is this hot purple hair boy with the sword...?
It was fun. Specially being spoiled on DBZ because the anime was only at Namek saga.

>>1525518
>purple haired boy with the sword
Oh, that's Crono after a day at the salon. He had his hair straightened, bleached and dyed.

>>1524119
>reading cracked in half disc without even skipping the cd audio
I AM SORELY TEMPTED TO TEST THIS IN MY SATURN.

>>1525272
You forget the part where western developers were denied dev kits until right before the goddamn system hit retail stores. I remember my local Toys R Expensive selling them for $540. Yeah, seems like an arbitrary number, but that's why I remember it. Playstation launched at three hundred funbucks.

>>1525658
I also forget that the surprise launch at E3 '95 with certain stores pissed off a LOT of retailers.

As AVGN would put it, WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?

>>1525272
>PS1 was easier to develop for

This is a bullshit argument, especially since the PS2 was the most difficult system of its gen to develop for, but that didn't stop devs from making it the winner of that gen.

>>1526636
I don't know much about what's the hardest to develop for, but I think context is important. Look at the install base the PS2 had.

>>1526636
https://twitter.com/ID_AA_Carmack/statuses/304662242627031040

>>1526640
Like I said, the concept of "easiest to develop for" is bullshit.

Bug! is really really hard.

>>1526645
What does this have to do with PS2?

>>1526653
I'm proving my point that PS1 was easier to develop for.

>>1523664
Six face buttons.

>>1526661
That wasn't what I was referring to, retard. I said the fact the PS2 was the hardest to develop for didn't hamper it.

>>1526668
Well guess what? PS2 is not retro and thus cannot be discussed.

>>1526664
>this shit again

Figured you were tired of losing by now, Fritz.

>>1526670
>implying that proves me wrong

You really *are* that stupid.

>>1526664
What a great argument. You sure gave a lot of convincing logic and evidence!

>>1526650
Not exactly. Like I said, context.

Large install base = "We should go through the trouble of making games on this thing."

Without the install base, all you have is a system that's a pain in the ass to make games for. And what's the point of going through a lot of trouble to make something that won't sell?

>>1526664

>>1526664
No go away. If you wanna try and force stupid shit go do it on /tv/.

>>1526679
PROTIP: You have to make that userbase happen with games.

And this in no way shows that the difficulty in programming for the PS2 hampered its success, which was my entire point. Good luck countering that.

>>1526650
>the concept of "easiest to develop for" is bullshit.

>>1526664
Because something tried, proven and successful for years is a bad thing.

>>1526685
>PROTIP: You have to make that userbase happen with games.

That's not exactly the job of the third party developers, though.

>And this in no way shows that the difficulty in programming for the PS2 hampered its success

Man, you must be dense. The point I'm making is that the success happened because of the install base. This is a different case from the Saturn which did not have a magnificent install base.

I'm not arguing that difficulty alone hampered the Saturn. I'm saying that the difficulty PLUS the lack of an amazing install base is what worked against it. I keep saying the word "context" for a reason and you keep ignoring it.

>>1526696
So, you're saying people bought the system and created the install base just because of the console, and not the games.

Are you on drugs? The games are what sells the console, you stupid fag. You have to have the games to create the install base in the first fucking place.

>>1526701
>You have to have the games to create the install base in the first fucking place.

Are you so dumb that you forget that there are first party companies that make games and also that in the past companies like Nintendo have scouted third parties to make games? I guess you are. It's a practice that continues to this day (Look at Bayonetta 2)

Nintendo, Sony, Sega, Microsoft...every one of these companies has their own game development teams.

>>1526701
>So, you're saying people bought the system and created the install base just because of the console, and not the games.

Not him, but this is exactly what people do.

Take a look at the PS3, Xbone, and WiiU.

The PS4 has the LEAST amount of games out of the 3, and is selling out as soon as they are in stock.

The xbone isnt selling as fast, even though it has more games.

The WiiU easily has 10 times more games than the PS4 and Xbone, yet it's the SLOWEST selling console of the 3.

>>1526704
You tell me, Timmy...

Why do you buy a console?

>(Look at Bayonetta 2)
Oh, yeah. For Wii U, and we all know how massive that userbase is, right? It's like The Last Guardian...a promised game that is looking less and less likely to be released.

Only in the Wii U's case, it wouldn't surprise me if Bayonetta 2 was moved to other consoles BECAUSE of the lack of a big userbase.

>>1526707
>The PS4 has the LEAST amount of games out of the 3

Bullshit

PS4 has 213 games
Xbox One has 148

>>1526708
>Why do you buy a console?

For the games.

But you seem to be missing the point that you don't need third parties to initially build your install base.

>Oh, yeah. For Wii U, and we all know how massive that userbase is, right?

I wasn't using the Wii U as an example of something with a massive install base. I was using Bayonetta as an example of things companies do to build install bases. I suppose it hasn't worked, but whether or not it was successful isn't the point. The fact is, it's what they attempted to do.

I'm not surprised any of these basic concepts are going right over your head.

>>1526707
>The WiiU easily has 10 times more games than the PS4 and Xbone

lol no. Wii U has 324 games. Try doing some research that doesn't involve pulling things from your ass.

>>1526718
I said nothing about 3rd parties.

>
I wasn't using the Wii U as an example of something with a massive install base. I was using Bayonetta as an example of things companies do to build install bases

Uh, you *do* realize Bayonetta 2 is supposedly a Wii U exclusive, so yes, Bayonetta 2 is directly related to the Wii U

WTF IS WRONG WITH YOUR BRAIN

>>1526685
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526717
>>1526720


Jesus. We're talking exclusives worth owning. Come on. You aren't going to buy "Princess Cotton Candy Pancakes Painting" and you know it.

>>1526723
Oh, I'm sorry...I thought the PS2 (the hardest to develop for) was the winner of its generation. YOU SURE SHOWED ME. I guess that's why nobody made PS2 games. It was just too fucking hard, right?

>>1526668
>>1526674
>>>/v/

>>1526724
>I said nothing about 3rd parties.

Your point?

>Uh, you *do* realize Bayonetta 2 is supposedly a Wii U exclusive, so yes, Bayonetta 2 is directly related to the Wii U

I don't understand what the point you're making here. I never said it was unrelated to the Wii U.

>>1526726

I think it's confirmed you aren't reading anyone's entire posts anymore.

>>1526731
POINT: PS2 was the hardest console of its generation to develop for, and this did not hamper game companies from making games for it and building a massive library of top games that won the generation for the console.

The fact it was difficult to develop for did not stand in its way.

I'm not sure why people are arguing against me over these facts.

>>1526735
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526735
>I'm not sure why people are arguing against me over these facts.

Probably because you lack reading comprehension or just aren't reading anyone's posts. No one is claiming "harder to develop games for" is the only reason the Saturn had issues. We're saying it's one of the issues that contributed to it.

The PS2 did not have the other issues, therefore it turned out to be a success.

Try reading posts sometime before raging about things you aren't even interpreting correctly.

>>1526735
Maybe the fact that the difficulty of developing games did not stand in the way of PS2's success was because MUH CHEAP DVD PLAYER What does Saturn do? Play audio CD's? So does the fucking Sega CD dipshit.

>>1526739
You're not reading mine, so right back at ya. You're still arguing for no fucking reason.

>No one is claiming "harder to develop games for" is the only reason the Saturn had issues

I never brought this up. Stop putting words in my mouth. Jesus Christ, CAN YOU NOT READ?

It's funny that you're giving me shit about
>you lack reading comprehension or just aren't reading anyone's posts
when you aren't even bothering to read mine. God damn, you're a dumbass.

>>1526749
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526745
>make up an excuse
>use it as an attack

Standard-issue faggotry. I never used that as an argument regarding the system playing CDs. Are you off your meds?

Maybe you like little girls. Maybe you're a rapist. YOU MUST BE THE SHITHEAD WHO RAPED MY LITTLE SISTER!!!!

See how stupid that sounds? Wake up.

>>1526749
>I never brought this up.

So why do you keep arguing a single point that no one is even trying to dispute? No one is even trying to argue against the fact that the PS2 was harder to develop for, but you just keep going back to that point over and over again like it's the only relevant point here. It's not.

>God damn, you're a dumbass.

Says the person who keeps arguing one point without taking the whole situation into context.

>>1526751
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526750
>You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever.

Nope. You said that.

>>1526754
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526751
>I never used that as an argument regarding the system playing CDs.

Holy shit, you are one dense motherfucker.

That poster is implying the PS2 was a cheap DVD player which was something novel to have at the time of its release, whereas a CD player was not, and you could already play CDs with one of Sega's past systems, meaning the novelty was lost.

You have trouble thinking good, don't you?

I refuse to believe that these are /vr/ regulars arguing amongst each other. I also don't even have to read it from start to finish to know that it's shit.

VIDYA GAMES.

>>1526758
Blame the dude who started arguing against a single point and decided to lash out on everyone who dared correct him for not looking at the whole picture.

>>1526751

>>1526757
Which has nothing to do with CDs. There was no reason to bring it up.

>You have trouble thinking good

Should I correct the grammar here, or just let you figure it out on your own?

Seriously, what part of "the difficulty of developing games for PS2 didn't hamper its success" is seriously not getting through? The sales figures and developer support speak for themselves.

People honestly think the system *was* hampered by it? Really?

What is wrong with you people?

>>1526707
I only own a Wii U of the modern consoles, but I disagree with you.

PS4 is selling the best, because the best selling games are multiplats, Wii U is not strong enough for this new gen AAA multiplats, and PS4 is more powerful than the XBone, so the multiplats will look better on PS4.
PS4 is selling not because of the games it has, but because of the games it will have. And also because it is cheaper than the Xbone.

People know the next Call of Duty, GTA, Final Fantasy, Assasin Creed and Metal Gear will look better in the PS4, so they get that for the future games it will get, and not because of the few mediocre games it has now.

>>1526774
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526778
And this hampered the success of the PS2...how?

It's safe to say the PS2 was a phenomenal success. More so than the competition.

I'm not sure how being #1 isn't good enough.

>>1526774
You're not even trying anymore.

>>1526778
Wow...we're getting into drone replies now. No real counter-argument, just rehashing.

>>1526776
>Wii U is not strong enough for this new gen AAA multiplats
And, amusingly, neither are the PS4 and Xbone.

>>1526781
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526786
maybe if you read the whole thing, specifically that last line, he'd stop posting it

or you can keep this up, your whole looking like an idiot thing. you've filled my monday morning with laffs.

>>1526778
>Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

Why does this matter? The PS2 did exceptionally well.

>>1526785
I don't have to try. If people think the top console isn't doing a good enough job, then it's not worth educating retards about facts.

You sound like the dads who beat their jock kids because, despite the fact they came in first place, they should have done better. Kill yourself.

>>1526786
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526793
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526795
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526794
Wow...we're getting into drone replies now. No real counter-argument, just rehashing.

>>1526792
I did read the last line, you nitwit. I never once said it was the *only* factor*. This is that bullshit "I'm going to make up something to argue against" shit again. I only said that development difficulties didn't hamper it.

I'm convinced I'm just replying to either trolls or special needs kids.

>>1526793
>being this ignorant

>>1526804
Oh, the PS2 did terribly? Citation needed.

>>1526802
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1523679
But Sega of Japan did a better job with the Saturn then Sega of America.

>>1526804
I'm happy with all of my consoles and the games I have for them. Call it ignorant or whatever but I'm not sure what Anon's incentive is when all he's doing is posting the same thing over and over again.

If you ask me (and nobody did) any competent dev would go leaps and beyond to learn the way a system works. Saying the Sega Saturn and PS2 were "hard to develop for" only does so much in a conversation catered to people that only play games (people like me). Does it make sense?

>>1526692
A Saturn controller is unfortunately not an arcade top.

>>1526819
I only said the Saturn was hard to develop for. I never mentioned PLAYSTATION 2

>>1526813
It hampered its potential, not its success.

>>1526818
Well, you have to realize that Sega of Japan was responsible for both the success of the Saturn in Japan and the failure of the Saturn everywhere else.

>>1526819
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526827
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526838
Global rule 10
>No spamming or flooding of any kind.

>>1526840
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526841
>>1526838
>>1526832
>>1526813
>>1526798
>>1526797
>>1526794
>>1526791
>>1526778
>>1526756
>>1526753
>>1526750
>>1526738
>>1526723


So autistic, it actually made me want to throw up.

>>1526840
Global Rule #0
Don't be an armchair moderator

>>1526846
It costs money to make games. If a system is harder to program for, then it will likely cost more money to make games for it. You are essentially saying that the cost of game development just doesn't factor into the decision to develop games for a particular system whatsoever. Do you really see how your position is not reasonable? Increased development costs will not necessarily kill a platform, but it WILL do it harm and the PS2 would have been better off were it easier to develop for. All you have proven is that it's not the only factor.

>>1526847
Now that's what I call "butthurt".

>>1526825
Okay, but you called me ignorant for asking why PS2 development difficulties were relevant seeing that the console did so well. You didn't tell me why it mattered when I asked.

All I want to know is why any of this matters to anyone. Until everyone says why they're shitposting we will truly never get to the bottom of the issue. The console war mindset has clearly been carried into 2014 and I think the angry posts reveal everyone's true stance. There's no educating anyone on the history of game consoles when people will continue to play whatever they want to play and call the things they've never touched "shit".

What does /vr/ suggest to be the end all solution for conversations like these? I'm not even sure what actually set things off but I really hate to see this board reduced to
>>1526849

What does /vr/ really want to say about all of this? Feel free to cut a wrestling promo.

>>1524231
>SOJ is awful. They seemed to hold a retarded grudge against their western counterparts.
fuck internal politics

Judging from interviews from the 32x developer and a guy who worked on Sonic Xtreme. This all seems exaggerated. Yt wasn't anywhere near as bad as people think it was. Sure, they didn't get along as well as Nintendo of Japan and Nintendo of America, but it wasn't some outright sabotage by one division of the company. but the difference, and I think this is what really hurt Sega, is that unlike Nintendo, it had no clear master plan, the whole thing seemed mismanaged.

>>1523836
No it was definitely a clusterfuck.

>>1526850
You should work on your perception skills then.

>>1526758

i remember the saturn threads of yore,
fascinating discussions about the political machinations within a schizophrenic corporation.
they were well referenced with quotes and interviews from key players from various factions.
it was enthralling and educative, thank you based /vr/ of old.

>>1523664
The Sega CD and the 32x which should have never existed. They should have delayed Sonic CD to be a Saturn launch title, and then everything would had been a lot better.

>>1526878
My "perception skills" indicate that post was deleted for one reason or another.

>>1523664
-Saturn games more expensive than psx games
-Deleyed games (every single game shared with psx always released in saturn like 1,2 or 3 months later) I'm looking you EA
-No tomb raider 2, no resident evil 2, no destruction derby 2
-bad ports
-bad press , I mean every single magazine and website in Europe suppose that everybody owns a psx , and after that they analize saturn games
-Sega spent money in mega-cd and ever worse in 32x

>>1527284
>Deleyed games (every single game shared with psx always released in saturn like 1,2 or 3 months later) I'm looking you EA

Nope. Not always.

>>1526664
But anon, the Saturn had both shoulder buttons AND six face buttons.

You posted a six-button Genesis controller.

>>1527293
It wasn't, but it was certainly annoying owning a Saturn back then. Mortal Kombat Trilogy and Resident Evil took damn near a year to get ported.

>>1528320
You are missing the point of the image. Two shoulder buttons are better than two extra superfluous face buttons.

>>1528383

Well
>Sega of Japan and Sega of America bitching at each other and rejecting the ideas of the other and vice versa
>Result of this made the Saturn to not get amazing gems from Japan
>Said result made the Saturn to be the Turbografx 16 2.0 and started to kill Sega[NOTE:it actually started with the 32X blunder]

>>1528401
Because muh small hands
Seriously,why there is no remake of the XBox HUEG S-controller with a second pair of shoulder buttons?

>>1528418

>>1526725
Why wouldn't I?

>>1526952
Snatcher validates the existence of the Sega CD and Sonic CD came several years before there were plans for the Saturn

>>1528383
Then give options to everyone by having both. Some people prefer more face buttons, ya know.

>>1528418
>Because muh small hands
But the Saturn controller isn't some huge, unwieldable mammoth like the Xbox Hueg Duke controller. It's perfectly holdable.

>Seriously,why there is no remake of the XBox HUEG S-controller with a second pair of shoulder buttons?
The placement of the white and black buttons was kinda retarded.

Speaking of S-controllers, do you know of a good seller? I bought an Xbox Hueg about a month and a half ago, but the controller it came with was busted. Only works if you wiggle the cord in the perfect position. It's annoying cause I'm trying to softmod it.

Doesn't have to be an official first party controller. Quality third party is fine too.

>>1528432
But that's silly. Get an arcade top or use a keyboard. Shoulder buttons on a controller are superior.

>>1524825

Euro wasn't even a currency back then.

Also, PS1 and Saturn were about the same price, what killed Saturn was no piracy.

>>1528497
I'd rather have it all together, and not have to spring for an extra controller.

Why are you so against having options for various players to use their preferences with a single controller?

>>1528624
>Also, PS1 and Saturn were about the same price

$299 vs. $399.

>>1528624
Really??? I had to currency to euros to give a certain notion of what it was back then, even if money value was different.
In 95 was about "450€" and for example, the Mega Drive around 92 or 93 was about "150€" + one of those 6-1 packs. But one thing is true, the PSX was also about the same price as the Saturn, don't know about other countries since I never cared about that.

>>1530118
>I had to currency to euros
You see children. This is what happens when a eurofag frantically tries to defend a stupid post

>>1530758
No you ponce, he's converting the original price to euros for convenience's sake. It's also obvious english isn't his first language. What do you want to do, argue prices in pesetas or liras or some other extinct currency?

>>1530758
Also, the price for the 32x is absolutely correct. I don't remember the Saturn ever being 450, at least in my neck of the woods, but it came on sale at 350€ or more and cost 50 to 100€ more than the PS for a long time.

I'm just gonna mod my Saturn. This damn thing is too expensive to collect for nowadays. Even shitty games like Mr. Bones are getting expensive.

>>1524119
well MY saturn is capable of reading a disc that turned into a finely ground powder

>>1526692
not him but an arcade set up wouldn't really allow for shoulder buttons so its was more anecesseity than a design choice, i prefer shoulders as it means less cramped buttons and left and right can be mapped in ways that feel meaningful like panning right and left

It's depressing, because the Saturn JP library is fucking godlike.