/vr/ - Retro Games

do your photos look differently on your hard drive than on a CD or USB drive?

>>1293608
Yes, they wouldn't have had to butcher texture resolution so much to fit everything onto a few MB of storage.

>>1293620
Look at this guy, look at him and laugh. Ha, what a moron.

The only effect on graphics would have been better texture quality for lower budget 3rd party titles - since a few 3rd party devs tended to use crappy 8-16MB cartridges to save costs.

Some of them would have looked different.
For example, OB64 had a blurry quality to it that you didn't see in 2d Playstation games, since it had to resort to heavy, lossy compression to fit all the data.

By going with ROM cartridges instead of CDs, the N64 maintained the super-fast load speeds of the 16 bit era, but it couldn't compete in terms of bulk data capacity. The biggest N64 releases were, what, 64 MB? That's about a tenth of what a (significantly cheaper) CD could hold.

>>1293641
>the N64 maintained the super-fast load speeds of the 16 bit era
>16 BIT ERA

*facepalms self to next century*

>>1293645
oh calm down, it's 5 in the morning and you know what I meant

>>1293608
Overall, no. I doesn't matter if you have a large texture stored in the CD if the video memory is low. Audio would be better though.

If N64 Used CDs, Sony wouldn't have gotten it's foot in the door when they made their own console.

>>1293648
Red book audio sure but the rest still needs a sound processor

>>1293631
>they wouldn't have had to butcher texture resolution so much
Yes they would. The issue was something to do with the texture cache, not limitations on game size.
Audio, the amount of content possible, and the way a lot of games were made would be different, but textures would still look bad.

CDs were deprecated the minute they came out

Nintendo did the right thing when they stuck to flash

wouldn't the only difference be high quality sound and music?

>>1293652
Sony would have had a lucrative partnership. Nintendo created it's biggest competitor, the same way atari made their own demise.

>>1293706
worse bets have been made

>>1293631
>Yes, they wouldn't have had to butcher texture resolution so much to fit everything onto a few MB of storage.
The PSX had the exact same texture limitations the N64 had.

>>1293710
It would be much worse for Nintendo. Every synapse of the situation mentions Sony was trying to steal nintendo's ips in their contracts to where Nintendo told them to fuck off.

>>1293710
If Nintendo had gone with Sony's agreement, then Sony would've had the rights to EVERY game on the SNES CD.

Do you really think this would've been a good idea for Nintendo?

The difference is the n64 library might have been,larger and might have had better quality music. Plus it would have had more Fmv. The games would be harder to collect if it had been CD and sold the same number of titles since the cartridges age way better. But at the same time the older games could have been reprinted or had the price lowered to move more titles because CDs are cheaper.

>>1293710
>>1293710
In no way did I say what you guys were implying. Read what I wrote and think about it. You obviously know more than I do about this, but I didn't come close to saying what you imply i said

>>1293784
>You obviously know more than I do about this,
We do. Nintendo did create their biggest enemy, but it was far and away the lesser of the two apparent evils at the time.

The best solution would've been not teaming up with Sony in the first place.

>>1293748
Another thing to look at is that Square and Enix might not have jumped ship to the Playstation, since they apparently only did it because of cartridges.

>>1293793
A lot of games would have been designed very differently as well. It's pretty common knowledge that Super Mario 64 was designed the way it was, with a small handful of levels being reused multiple times by having different objectives, because there simply was not space for tons of levels. The collect-a-thon as we know it may never have existed.

The N64 wouldn't have sent Nintendo at the bottom of the barrel, for starters. The loss of critical third party companies, and by extension critical third party games, are what caused Nintendo to lose their presence in the market. Nintendo didn't care as much as they still made a profit, though it'd be a lie if they weren't envious of Sony.

>>1293710
>the same way atari made their own demise.
How exactly did Atari make their own demise? If you're talking about their deal to manufacture the Famicom, that wasn't a really good deal on Nintendo's end and the Atari CEO who organized it was replaced by some Warner Communications sockmonkey after it ended.

Atari had this amazing deal with Nintendo completely unaware of the Atari 7800, which General Computer was developing at the time. If they judged the Atari 7800 somehow more powerful than the Famicom, they could've fucked up its release on purpose.

Instead, they threw a hissy fit over a port of Donkey Kong running on Coleco Adam being shown off at CES that year (they owned the rights for personal computers; keep in mind that that was the only thing Nintendo was famous for at that point) and Nintendo instead manufactured the NES themselves and had it distributed by the Worlds of Wonder, the company behind Laser Tag and Teddy Ruxpin.

>>1293741
Why the fuck did Sony need the rights to all of the SNES games on CD? That makes absolutely no sense to throw that into the contract. It seems like a good deal to me to be making hardware for Nintendo to make software on.

>>1294409
>The N64 wouldn't have sent Nintendo at the bottom of the barrel, for starters.
How? There are only a handful of memorable games on PSX. On N64, there weren't a lot of games compared to PSX, but they were better looking and they also played better.

>>1293706
>CDs were deprecated the minute they came out
Nice claim. Gonna back it up?

>>1293715
lol no

>>1294643
>There are only a handful of memorable games on PSX
Jesus, no. PSX has quite a few memorable games, probably equaling or surpassing the N64's. It had quite a lot of comparable titles, too. Aside from that, the PSX has more games worth owning than the N64's entire library.
Also
>Better looking
Purely based on the talent of the developers. Of course Nintendo knew how to use their hardware better than anyone else. But look at Crash Bandicoot, which looks great to this day and constantly pushed the polygon limits of the PSX to the limit.
>Played better
This is purely subjective. You can not say that games on the N64 play better than games on the PSX because you're playing them on an N64. That's completely retarded.

>>1294643
The Playstation got all the third party support, the same companies that helped make Nintendo into a household name everywhere. It's crazy now, but there was a time when third party games were just as memorable, if not more, than Nintendo's own titles. At lot of generic top 10s for the NES are comprised mostly of third party titles, with the only Nintendo titles being the quintessential Mario/Zelda/Kirby games. It wasn't until the SNES when Nintendo started to support their consoles more, and even still the SNES had well known third party titles.

The N64 might've had Eurocom, DMA Design (for two games), Acclaim, and a whole bunch others, but they in no way made up for the absence of Square, Konami, and Capcom, who made games that defined the PS1. You could argue that Rareware was a flipside, but Square's Final Fantasy 7 changed turned the table against Nintendo for good.

>>1294643
You're garbage, stop spreading your underage idiocy on the board. PS1 beat N64 in every way possible, that's why it was the best selling games console ever at the time and N64 was Nintendo's biggest flop at the time.

>>1294983
Konami made several N64 games, and Capcom signed a deal with Nintendo, which is why Resident Evil 2, 0, and 4 got Gamecube releases.

Even if Nintendo had used CDs, the sour relationship with Square would still have been a problem. Also, CDs would have hampered the N64 in terms of load speeds and streaming. However, the upside would have been a much better price vs storage ratio for game devs.

>>1295014
>Konami made several N64 games

None of which helped the N64 in any way, let alone to a level comparable to MGS and the PS1.

>Capcom signed a deal with Nintendo

That they broke shortly after signing.

>>1295014
>which is why Resident Evil 2, 0, and 4 got Gamecube releases

2 is a port, which already existed on the N64 and PS1 before it. When the PS2 version of 4 came to be, the GameCube version might as well have stopped being produced, considering how fucking fast people stopped buying it. I'll give you 0 and REMake, but as with Konami above, none of them helped the GameCube in any significant way.

The point is, the PS1 gave third parties a good taste of Sony's policies, which have rendered Nintendo consoles as a medium obsolete. For a non /vr/ example, you could swap the PS4 and Wii U around and say that Nintendo built an easy to program for powerhouse and Sony made an underpowered gimmick box; the Sony console will always win with third party support.

>>1294642
The idea was that Sony was going to make their own console later that could play SNES CD format and a new format that SNES CD could not, and Nintendo would not be able to do jack shit about it.

>>1294987
>You're garbage, stop spreading your underage idiocy on the board. PS1 beat N64 in every way possible
Except graphically, prices (save for games), and developer talent.

>>1294962
This is mostly a subjective thing that tends to bring out the worst of each system's fanbase, but N64 did have more graphical power than either Saturn or PSX. It's why a lot of PSX games don't look that good since they had to use visual tricks to make it look like it was being rendered in 3D, but those have aged horribly.

>>1294983
>The Playstation got all the third party support, the same companies that helped make Nintendo into a household name everywhere.
Third party games were nice on Nintendo, but Genesis had them too, and people bought Nintendo systems for the Nintendo games and vice versa. A lot of 16-bit games were on both systems, and many of them were mostly the same game with a few minor difference. Some were different, but preference between the Genesis and the Super NES was mostly on their exclusive, first party software.

We've already seen the disastrous result of depending entirely on third parties to make your games lineup, and it's a pretty naive viewpoint to be putting so much of the system's value on them unless that was the only thing going for it like it was with PSX. Even Sega Saturn was and remains worth getting, almost entirely from Sega's games.

>Square's Final Fantasy 7 changed turned the table against Nintendo for good.
You probably don't remember, or more likely, weren't even there when it happened, but people didn't buy SNES for Square or JRPGs in general and this didn't affect N64 sales. It was only after their tween/teenage fanbase discovered the internet that Square RPGs really started to take off. If anything, the main things keeping back sales on N64 were game prices, which sometimes pushed $75 and the lack of young developers eager to publish their licensed shovelware on formats worth more than their contents.

>>1295036
>The point is, the PS1 gave third parties a good taste of Sony's policies, which have rendered Nintendo consoles as a medium obsolete.
So how come they've survived? Why did people buy Gamecube and Wii when third party masterpieces like Just Dance 2 littered Sony and Microsoft's lineup? Why do people still believe in Nintendo even though they're half-assing hardware design and have done so for years, with the possible exception of Gamecube which did better graphically than either PS2 or Xbox?

>>1296171
Because Nintendo is for children and old people. Just look at their commercials.

>>1296171
>>masterpieces like Just Dance 2
>>Nintendo half-assing hardware design
>>implying xbox and ps2 games didnt wreck gamecube games graphically
>>MFW

>>1296242
>implying xbox and ps2 games didnt wreck gamecube games graphically

This has got to be a troll. It's common knowledge that the Xbox had the best graphics, followed by the GCN, THEN the PS2.

>>1295040
That's just a dumbshit move. Even Sony knows better than to blow a contract like that on purpose.

>>1296242
>Not getting obvious sarcasm
>Seriously believing Nintendo's not completely half-assing everything today
They're even half-assing the baseball team they own.

>>1296242
>>1296249
Well, if it really was more powerful, then it was probably stuck in a Jaguar or Saturn situation. Only the PGR games, Top Spin, and OutRun 2 are really that impressive graphically over any PlayStation 2 game and most of the Gamecube games.

>>1296384
Every game is more impressive on the xbox. Every playstation 2 game had crazy jaggies, xbox had anti-aliasing. Also the xbox supported HD.

>>1296242
Xbox maybe, PS2, no way. It took until God of War 1 and 2 and GT4 to look as good as something like Metroid Prime.

>>1296242
niggas need to play crystal chronicals

>>1296168
The PS1's biggest advantage over the N64 was the fact that it had FF7, a franchise that was once on Nintendo consoles, and by extent, made popular by Nintendo. It'd be retarded to assume that losing FF7 was insignificant. If first party games were so much better, why haven't they been able to shift the N64 past the PS1?

>>1296409
Gamecube was no slouch either. Anything designed for it looked amazing, and multiplats still generally beat out the PS2. Despite a great library, PS2 is still the worst choice for multiplats of that generation.

>>1296468

If we're going to talk about FF7 kicking the collective ass of N64's RPGs, we should also talk about Gran Turismo kicking the collective ass of N64's racing games.

>>1296495
you dissing F-Zero X m8

>>1293715
>The PSX had the exact same texture limitations the N64 had.

No, no and no. For a texture to be rendered on the N64 it was REQUIRED to visit the 4KB texture cache. This meant that each texture had a 4KB size limit (64x64, or 128x64 monochrome, even smaller than that if mipmapping was used), but no defined limit on how many textures you could render

For a texture to be rendered on the Playstation it needed to be within the 1MB VRAM. From the VRAM, 2KB was dedicated as the 'texture cache'. Any texture that was rendered from this location got a speed bonus, but it was OPTIONAL. Texture size hard limit was 256x256.

This texture difference had NOTHING to do with storage medium. Clip out FMV, audio and pre-rendered from Playstation games and you end up in N64 cartridge territory. "Full 3D graphics" in that era did not take up much space because the hardware could not physically render very high resolution textures.

>>1296468
>It'd be retarded to assume that losing FF7 was insignificant.
But it was. American gamers were even less interested in JRPGs then than they are now. People don't value Square as much as you do. They were more concerned about games being more expensive because they were on cartridges. All people knew was that PSX was somehow cheaper. It probably didn't look as good even back then, but hey, cartridge games are really expensive, let's take a chance on this new thing Sony's selling.

Only fanboyism could delude someone into thinking it was just another Square RPG sequel and not costs on both the manufacturer's end and the consumer's that damaged N64 sales.

>>1296495
F-Zero X and Sega Rally Championship on Saturn would like a word.

>>1296409
All 3 consoles supported 480p progressive scan on a title-by-title basis. GT4 had special modes in 720p and 1080i with the supported video cables, albeit at half the framerate.

>>1296409
>Every game is more impressive on the xbox.
This is kind of a problem, because there weren't that many exclusives worth owning. What games that really did shine graphically were also available on Windows and Macintosh, where they looked even better.

>>1296534
>Americans weren't interested in Final Fantasy 7
You realize you blew all your credibility in the second sentence of your post.

>>1296576
Oh dear, I blew my credibility to an annoying Sony fanboy astray from >>>/v/. I'm devastated.

>>1296576
He didn't say Americans weren't interested, he said the cost of games had more to do with it than one game. Not only did high cartridge costs mean higher prices for customers, it also meant thinner profit margins for publishers, so it made sense to move to PlayStation if your game's success wasn't exactly a sure thing.

>>1296581
So I'm aSony fanboy for saying that the late 90s was the pinnacle of Western interest in JRPGs and that every Final Fantasy on PSX went Greatest Hits and there was such demand that Square re-released the NES/SNES Final Fantasies on the platform where they sold better than they ever sold in their initial western release.

Okay, got ya. I guess I must be a Sony fanboy then. Fucking idiot.

>>1296492
seriously, don't disrespect gamecube. Had a great library and competed with ps2 and xbox year to year. The only difference is the stereotype that the gamecube, much like other nintendo consoles, wouldn't release as many mature games.
I dunno where all the good games went for the wii though. It's like nintendo doesn't even make games anymore. Not that Sony or Microsoft are making much anymore either. Takes a really determined third party to just get something amazing out.

>>1296624
it used those stupid fucking discs though so a lot of multiplats were stripped down.

>>1296632
why couldn't nintendo into regular discs until 2006
were regular discs the downfall of nintendo

>>1296632
>it used those stupid fucking discs though so a lot of multiplats were stripped down

I thought only NeoGAF peddled this idiotic line. Have look at the file sizes of PS2 and Xbox games without the junk data padding. Usually comes in at around 1.5GB. Guess what? That's the size of the Gamecube disc.

Wowowow you've got a big game, it's so hard and expensive just to include a disc. Oh wait, some developers did do that and they had no problems at all.

Trying to compare the Gamecube situation to the N64 with the cartridges is apples to fucking oranges, since including an extra cart on the N64 would have cost you another $10 per game in costs, while it's another 50c for another mini-DVD.

>>1296687
To add onto that, some games could've utilized some amazing tricks to compress data, or use external hardware such as memory cards to store constant data.

Anyway, let's take the PS2's best selling game, San Andreas. San Andreas was 4.2 gigs, including the junk, leftover, and unused data. It could've fit on three GameCube disks easily, but that would've likely screwed with the pace of the game. How they could fix that is by giving a prompt to change the disc on something like a cutscene, like in the cutscene where CJ is taken to the Badlands.

Many third parties ignored the GameCube for various reasons, including market issues.

>>1296735
Just curious, were there any dual-layer Gamecube discs?

>>1296739
no

>>1296687
oh yeah Im sure most games wouldnt need more than a mini dvd. Something like grand theft auto was never ported to the gamecube though WHY?

>>1296739
I don't think so, but the technology was there.

>>1296746
nintendo is a family company and san andreas was b& business. would kill their market
>>1296735
how would you put a sandbox on three disks

>>1296753
but gamecube had true crime which was basically the same thing.

>>1296756
but did it get b&

>>1296753
Most of the space is taken up by the dialogue, for missions and stuff.

>>1296687
I think the only game I have from that generation that actually used both layers on the DVD-ROM was Gran Turismo 4. A lot of PlayStation 2 and Xbox games, including exclusives, were small enough to be ported to Gamecube and weren't, either due to exclusive contracts that would've invalidated getting a port (Rockstar with the GTA games) or just laziness (Atlus with the Persona games)

>>1296735
Is the PlayStation 2 version of SA or the Windows/Mac version, because they're probably different sizes because of the different ways the same game is executed.

>>1296756
>>1296758
also the other answer is that no one wanted to put effort into making a complicated version that would fit one disc.
which would be an odd excuse because cod black ops is on the ds these days.

>>1296761
PSN, actually.

>>1296739
>Just curious, were there any dual-layer Gamecube discs?
No, but it was technologically possible with mini discs, and demonstrated as such.

>>1296746
>Something like grand theft auto was never ported to the gamecube though WHY?
The plans just fell through I guess. Don't forget Xbox got the GTA games really really late. Also, irc GTA3 and Vice City on PC are just two CD-ROMs. That's easy peasy for a mini-DVD even without a single edit.

>>1296598
Well, if you're going to act like a Sony fanboy, ripping on everything not Sony and going after Nintendo because of Square's relationship with them of all the reasons, you're probably going to be referred to as a Sony fanboy.

>every Final Fantasy on PSX went Greatest Hits
Going Greatest Hits, or Player's Choice is at the choice of the publisher. Maybe they really did sell well for a PlayStation game. Then again, Just Dance 2 and Call of Duty: Ghosts also sold well. What does this have to do with Square's strength as a developer again?

>there was such demand that Square re-released the NES/SNES Final Fantasies on the platform where they sold better than they ever sold in their initial western release.
Gee, maybe that's because they were cheaper and more fans were meeting on usenet or the internet and talking about how Square totally just killed Nintendo by defecting to Sony, but yeah, it's because Square had all of that power.

They were so powerful, in fact, that they had to merge a competing publisher of overrated JRPGs in order to survive after blowing millions on shitty movies that they rendered with PS2 farms.

>>1296761
I made that point because GTA did eventually come out on the xbox, which was probably the easiest port they probably just used the PC version cause the xbox is a dell PC

>>1293648
But texture variety would have been greatly improved.

>>1296758
>>1296753
Gamecube also had ports of the early Call of Duty games, and is the last Nintendo system to date to get actual sports games, like the NFL Blitz or NCAA 2K series. Now, they have what appears to be the games, but with cartoony mascots playing instead of scary football players like Aaron Rodgers or Russell Wilson.

>>1296780
admittedly, I think the movies were a bad idea. still on the sony side of this debate.

>>1296776
Accordingly, Smuggler's Run didn't perform as well as they had hoped on the GameCube. Which is funny since Smuggler's Run wasn't even a good series that was known for being a gangbuster.

>>1296776
the PC version has all the game compressed as fuck on the first disc then all the music on the second. I dont think you could fit it all on a minidvd and keep the entire soundtrack in tact

RIP in peace, Yamauchi. While you were able to transform a card company into a video game giant, you were also able to transform said company into a complete joke with the N64. Even with Yamauchi dead, Nintendo hasn't been able to recover that spot, and will be unlikely in the forseeable future.

>>1293790
Sony would've gotten into the business anyway, Ninty partnership or no Ninty partnership.

>>1296782
What debate is there? It wasn't Square, much less one game, that killed sales for N64.

I'm saying the major problem was the cost of games. Customers needed to drop more money for games, and since they were on cartridges, publishers made less profit, and made developing for N64 less of a prirority.

The other guy is saying one game from one publisher nearly did Nintendo 64 in. Even Game Boy's resurrection from the wildly successful Pokemon nearly wasn't enough, according to this guy, to counter the onslaught of the great SquareSoft.

>>1296784
yeah that really hurts a console sports games actually generate a lot of sales.

The N64 should have won.

>100 dollars cheaper
>famicom and super famicom dominated

If they had:
>used cds
>had a less complicated architecture for the system
>keep 3rd party

They would have easily won.

>>1296792
College Basketball 2K3 isn't marketed to families. I never said they generate sales. Maybe that's why Sega spun off 2K Sports.

>>1296794
Im saying they generate sales If EA had put its series' onto the Gamecube i bet it would have sold better

>>1296784
>gay guy
>brown ham
>scary
>>1296791
well yeah, nintendo's death was self inflicted. can't blame competitors for competing. nintendo's fault for making bad hardware decisions, and not having game. despite that, they'll always have an audience buying their hardware for the newest zelda game. and I think the 3ds is sorta genius too, probably gonna be a great platform for games in the future.
>>1296793
right but keeping the third party is really really important how do you fuck that up

>>1296795
>right but keeping the third party is really really important how do you fuck that up

Nintendo in general were too controlling.

Nintendo of America had a lot of heavy handed censorship.

And the final straw was they rejected CDs. Developers were really interested in CDs because of the extra storage space it allowed.

>>1296795
They fucked it up because of controlling and especially the cartridges.

Cartridges cost too much for developers while CDs was really cheap and held more.
Not to mention CD Audio.

That was the big blow to third party for N64.

>>1296802
>>1296803
then why even stick with cartridges? I don't understand why they would do so much to fuck themselves. I can sorta see them doing the censorship thing, but even that is stupid.

>>1296806
dude we were all asking ourselves the same thing back in the 90s hahahah. I dont think anyone knows

>>1296793
>>1296789
We get it, third parties are everything.

Remember that one time a console based its entire lineup on third party software? It didn't turn out so well, did it?

>>1296795
People can speculate all they want here, but the truth is that no one here really knows what would've happened if Nintendo had gone with CDs. It probably would've taken forgetting the disaster that was the CD-i to convince Nintendo higher-ups, though. It may not make sense now, but up through PlayStation, the only remotely successful CD add-on or console was the Sega CD, and that only sold just under 3 million to a 12 million unit install base and people loved to hate it because they thought the lineup consisted of the infamous NEMO games.

Saturn and PlayStation both represented an actual effort to pair cost effective hardware with a CD-ROM drive, and they had the same business models, but one succeeded, the very first actual success with a CD-based games console. It made sense to be skeptical about gambling on CDs.

>>1296795
I want you to look up 3DO. Sure, it was $699, but even if it was $299 like PlayStation was at launch, there were no first party games and the only ones worth playing were already on Sega CD, SNES, or Macintosh or IBM-compatibles. The games were weak, and the failure of the 3DO was cited by former Nintendo exec Howard Lincoln as the reason why you need a decent first party lineup for your games console.

>>1296813
I know of the 3DO. I remember reading about how it was stupid expensive. I also remember it looked cool and I didn't know why it needed to be so expensive.
I'm not saying exclusive first party games aren't important. I just think you need a balanced amount of both.

Also, that makes sense, about the cd-rom thing. No one had really done it before. Why did the saturn fail where the playstation didn't though?
shit dude this thread is making me realize I don't know anything about game. Then again, I was really young when all these things happened. And as a kid I loved the 64 and PS1 near equally, so I never even heard about stuff like this.

>>1296809
>>1296806
>>1296803
Keep in mind that CD-i had just blown it, albeit very quietly, and nothing by 1994 with a CD-ROM drive saw much success in home video games. It made sense for the higher-ups at Nintendo to be skeptical of CD-ROM.

Sony, having developed the technology with Philips and a few other companies about 15 years earlier, obviously had a vested interest and had manufacturing set up for the games already in Mexico, where Sony Music pressed their CDs.

>>1296818
I imagine saturn didn't have the sort of back up a huge company like sony did

>>1296817
>Why did the saturn fail where the playstation didn't though?
It's a long story, but I'll try to keep it as short as I can.

The 32x, which unlike the Sega CD, was an American development, was a massive failure and a terrible idea. Sega of Japan, despite having greenlit the project and manufactured it for Japan within months of Saturn's launch, used this as an excuse to basically seize control of most of Sega of America's marketing.

As they developed a $399 machine based on dual processors that was tailored for Japanese gamers who at the time didn't consider 3D a priority in the way American gamers of the time did, Sega quietly dropped support of the Genesis. While the Genesis was doing well and remained head-to-head with SNES, it was limping along in Japan. This is part of a pattern of Sega decision making that made no sense outside of Japan.

Right as it seemed Sony and Sega were within days of each others launches, Sega announced an early launch at the first E3 in 1995 in August. The system and two games would be made available exclusively with a few retailers.

Developers, including Sega's own, were flustered at a launch that was moved up and rushed games through, resulting in the two half-assed ports of Daytona USA and Virtua Fighter that were there at launch. More importantly, they were burning retail bridges left and right. Sears dropped the Saturn from their Christmas lineup, and KayBee Toys LIQUIDATED ALL OF THEIR SEGA PRODUCTS.

[cont'd]

[cont'd from >>1296835]

The launch was a disaster. The Saturn, $100 more expensive than the PlayStation, had only an okay-looking port of Virtua Fighter that only looked marginally better than the 32X version, and the clunky, d-pad controlled, low draw distance, choppy framerate port of Daytona USA, their most beautiful game in arcades at the time. They followed up with gorgeous ports of Sega Rally Championship and Sonic 3D blast, but the damage was done. Tekken and Ridge Racer piqued the interests of gamers and, being simpler in their arcade incarnations, were easier to port to hardware that was at least designed to handle 3D graphics.

Ultra 64, as it was known at the time, was going to have cartridges, but would ultimately end up being one of the first consoles specifically designed around 3D graphics. It would launch the following year with Mario 64 and Pilotwings.

Saturn, on the other hand, limped along, and with games like NiGHTS Into Dreams, demonstrated an example of the Jaguar effect, where developers didn't fully understand the hardware, so we'll never really know just how powerful Saturn really was. It was certainly a 2D powerhouse, with great ports of some arcade games like Die Hard Trilogy and The House of the Dead later on. As sales lagged, though, US releases of games like Policenauts were cancelled and Saturn was quietly put down as they announced and hyped the Dreamcast.

>>1296845
Neat.
No, really, that was neat to read. I was too young to understand any of this at the time.

>>1296845
so whatyou're saying is the saturn didn't have the same marketing plan as the playstation.
also A LOT of bad decisions
I didn't even know anything outside of nintendo and playstation when this shit was happening

wow. taking all of this into consideration, so many people must have thought the xbox would be a bust when it came out.
too bad it had halo and graphics.

>>1296884
>so whatyou're saying is the saturn didn't have the same marketing plan as the playstation.
>also A LOT of bad decisions

It was also a very strange marketing plan. While Sega's assaultive tactics worked as an upstart, their ads for Sega Saturn starting with their video at E3 showing it off (which can be seen here at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YPQ7b3U09z8 ) had some weird shit going on. It was really the pricing and the weak launch that did it in.

It sucks, too, because there are some wonderful games on Saturn and along with the Sega CD, it's pretty underrated.

>>1296886
wow this is odd.
why? why did they market this so oddly?
is this a product of focus groups or lack thereof

Nintendo stuck with cartridges so they could make mad royalties off third parties on their patented cartridge design. Whether you think the N64 was a market share failure or not, you can't deny it made Nintendo a ticket. Hell, Nintendo matched Sony's profit with PSX dollar for dollar pretty much despite having 1/3rd of Sony's market in size.

It's funny how the Gamecube is called a "failure" despite only selling 2 million than Xbox and making a tidy profit, when Microsoft lost billions upon billions on that console.

>>1296896
1. who is calling the gamecube a failure
2. the xbox was a flop?
I mean, that makes sense, since I remember the 360 coming out so soon after. but why even make the 360 if the xbox really WAS a failure?

also that theater ofthe eye ad is pretty funny. in fact, this e3 vid just seems like it's a bunch of different commercials randomly strung together.

>>1296893
>why? why did they market this so oddly?
It was the "cool" thing back then. They just did weird shit when advertising games back then.

The Saturn along with the 32x was a product of incompetent management with a provincial mindset. It was a modest success in Japan for obvious reasons, but I lay the blame for its failure outside of Japan and Brazil (where it was licensed to TecToy and made a modest profit, if smaller than the runaway success of the Master System and Genesis) squarely at the feet of Sega of Japan.

>>1296896
Keep in mind that even though N64 lagged behind PlayStation in sales and software sales also didn't do so well, Pokemania was sweeping the world and it was enough to bring a ten-year-old handheld back from the dead.

>>1296806
>then why even stick with cartridges?
Cartridges are technologically superior to CDs. They kick the utter pants off CDs in terms of random access speed and actual data transfer rates. Also, they allowed for save data to be stored on the cartridge itself.

The truth of the matter is that cartridges were not a problem of size - they were a problem of price. Wheras developers like Acclaim, Ubisoft, could afford to use 32MB cartridges for heaps of their games, smaller publishers like 3DO were forced to use 8MB cartridges to save costs. Only two N64 games ever used the 64MB cartridge - Resident Evil 2 and Conker's Bad Fur Day. And since Capcom spend one million dollars porting RE2 to the N64, price wasn't exactly a problem for them. Plus Rareware were a developer who'd chosen to bundle expansion packs with every copy of Donkey Kong 64 to fix a crash bug - they were hardly frugal.

To put things in perspective, despite the existence of 40 and 64MB cartridges, every single one of Factor 5's games used a 32MB cartridge. These were games acclaimed for their texture quality and voice acting and the like. And Factor 5 were co-developing these games with Lucasarts, a company who helped push CDs and voice acting in games with their point and clicks.

Also, Factor 5 and Rareware LIKED cartridges. You can accuse them of being biased, but without cartridges, their creative vision would have been hampered.

>>1296904
>1. who is calling the gamecube a failure

It's the general consensus among NeoGAF idiots and it's spilling over to /v/ and other places.

>>1296906
so segaof japan didn't/doesn't understand how gaming/gaming culture/ads work outside of japan? what the fuck was sega of U.S.A. doing? I mean, obviously they were incompetent, but who hired those people? sega of japan?

>>1296910
okay, so developers were interested in cd-rom because of the larger data limit at the time (something you can't much blame them for - rareware games might have been great at the time, but no way are you fitting the games of the future on those cartridges) but games were doing fine on cartridges in the first place, and cd-rom seemed like risky business.
cd couldn't save on the cartridge and it required slower loading, but it also gave opportunity for new and more expansive games in the future, even if the hardware wasn't exactly there yet.
Did rare like cartridges for a good reason? or did they just like being married to nintendo? how would their vision have been hampered if the cd and cart both had ample space?
also rareware makes me sad.
also ifthe problem was price no duh did nintendo not wanna switch - they'd made a killing off of cartridges with their previous consoles and that also meant they had plenty of money to supply their systems with lotsa first party games. Just makes the nintendo consoles lonely, not dead or bankrupt.
>>1296912
neogaf?

>>1296920
>Did rare like cartridges for a good reason?
The lead developer on Conker's Bad Fur Day, Chris Seavor, liked cartridges because you can walk through a doorway and load the next area almost instantly. He talked about it in the developer commentary for the game, and said catridges were much better than discs and even hard drives.

That said, him and his team did remake Bad Fur Day for the Xbox, which used DVDs.

The underlying problem with cartridges was that space requirements for games jumped rapidly, but the price of solid state memory was slow to fall. It did fall, eventually, though - after all, the Nintendo DS has 256MB cartridges for some games, and the Vita has 4GB game cartridges - though, on the downside, it seems Vita devs are really lazy when it comes to exploiting cartridges, preferring to load everything into ram like a normal, disc-based console.

Basically, using cartridges for games was too far ahead of its time because cartridge memory was too expensive.

>>1296913
The people at Sega of America were geniuses, the first company to successfully penetrate the market of Nintendo with their hit "Genesis does what Nintendon't" campaign.

They strengthened their American lineup with great sports games that remained unavailable on NES and followed a razors-and-blades strategy of getting Genesis into as many hands as possible while selling software at a nice, comfy profit margin. As the Mega Drive failed in Japan against the Super Famicom and the PC Engine, the Genesis was head to head with Super Nintendo in North America and Europe.

Sega of Japan shat all over that by taking the keys after the failure of 32x. Even if that was an American project, they greenlit and developed for it and they were ultimately the ones at the wheel when Saturn released early at $399 as they burned some big bridges in a retail world before the advent of Amazon or Ebay.

It was Sega of Japan and their retardation alone that killed Sega's hardware operations. Sony and Nintendo just sped up the process a little.

You'd be able to have a lot more textures, but just having more ROM for the game doesn't change that the N64 had fuck all memory.

>>1296932
>You'd be able to have a lot more textures, but just having more ROM for the game doesn't change that the N64 had fuck all memory.
The N64 had up to 8MB ram. That's 4 times the PS1's 2MB. Also, the extra ram wasn't really needed for most tasks because reading the data directly off the cartridge was faster. The 4kb texture cache is a whole other kettle of fish - it caused a trade-off between texture quality and fill rate.

>>1296932
This. 2mb is nothing to work with. I'll never know how they got Hyrule Field running on N64, probably with some kind of black magic.

>>1296928
shit dude the vita sucks so bad.
would a cartridge system work really well now?
also, totally unrelated question: will sega after dabble in hardware again
>>1296930
wait the genesis was good

>>1296937
>This. 2mb is nothing to work with. I'll never know how they got Hyrule Field running on N64, probably with some kind of black magic
The N64 had 4MB ram. And it streamed data off the cartridge - similar to how PS1 games like Soul Reaver did, but much more effeciently, since the devs didn't have to deal with CD access speed issues.

>>1296941
>will sega EVER dabble in hardware again
ftfy
>>1296943
bitch at nintendo all you want, I still think their developers are geniuses. they've always known their hardware, they've always pushed it's limits to the farthest. now if only they weren't afraid of new ip.

>>1296941
>would a cartridge system work really well now?
I think that distributing games on solid state memory is a doomed approach because it adds overheads to game cost. However, a viable approach would be to distribute games on discs, or digitally, and then cache them on very fast solid state drives. The 8th gen consoles have mandatory installs, but the actual hard drives are shitty and slow compared to SSDs.

>>1296949
developers don't want to go back to having to buy cartridges?
I'm sorry, I don't even understand what you mean by cache the games on ssd's. How does that even work what are you talking about why don't I know

I think Nintendo should have tried to be kinder to third parties, and helped cover the costs of cartridges, and also invested in helping third parties understand the N64 hardware. For example, they should have asked Acclaim or Factor 5 to share their innovations with other developers. The closest thing we got was various games using Factor 5 audio and video compression technology.

>>1296941
>will sega after dabble in hardware again
Probably not. It wouldn't make much sense to at this point.

>wait the genesis was good
The Genesis ultimately was good, but its launch was headlined with weak ports of Altered Beast and Super Monaco GP. They stepped up eventually with Golden Axe and Streets of Rage, fearing a repeat of Tonka's disastrous distribution deal with the Master System only two years earlier, which also launched with two weak arcade ports.

It was with Sonic and the sports games that people really started seeing the power with Genesis over NES and people started getting them. Even with SNES on the horizon, American and European gamers grew impatient and took a gamble with Sega.

>>1296957
>It wouldn't make much sense to at this point.
because they don't have the money? or something else?
>It was with Sonic and the sports games that people really started seeing the power with Genesis over NES and people started getting them
sounds like had I been there I still would've been jumping on the snes. Need dungeon crawlers mate. seems like genesis had very limited library, whereas snes had lots of game.

>>1296952
>I'm sorry, I don't even understand what you mean by cache the games on ssd's. How does that even work what are you talking about why don't I know
SSDs are a kind of hard drive which use silicon instead of spinning metal cylinders. They're basically the same concept as cartridges, but you can read and write to them. They're used by hardcore PC users for various stuff.

Modern consoles such as the Xbox 360, PS3, PS4, Xbox One, and even the original Xbox, install games to the hard drive. (Not all of them, but a significant number.) The hard drives used in these consoles are slow - they're basically low-end PC hard drives. Using SSDs would allow for much, much faster loading and streaming.

>>1296963
so like
put an ssd in the consoles? like, with a game printed on it?

>>1296962
>sounds like had I been there I still would've been jumping on the snes. Need dungeon crawlers mate. seems like genesis had very limited library, whereas snes had lots of game.
It's really an apples-and-oranges situation with SNES and Genesis. Personally, I grew up with Sega Saturn, and I have a love for sports games when they're good. I also love arcade games, so naturally, I'd prefer Genesis over SNES.

It really boils down to preference, and the available hardware for each is about equal.

>>1296967
>so like
>put an ssd in the consoles? like, with a game printed on it?
In theory, just give the console a removable, blank SSD. (Removable, because SSDs are prone to failure.) Load the game onto the SSD just like installing a game to a hard drive.

This was sorta done with the PSP, which used regular flash memory sticks. The games came on UMDs, but some games had the option to install a big chunk of data to the memory stick, and load times were drastically shorter. The GTA games didn't actually support this, officially. So people would just crack their PSPs and dump the game to the memory stick, and as a result load times went from around a minute to about 7 seconds.

My guess is that the 9th generation of consoles will move to SSDs for game storage, even if they keep a normal, much larger hard drive for data.

>>1296976
why aren't the 9th generation consoles ALREADY doing this?That's genius! and there's not a single thing else I can think of that makes the hardware worth the 500 dollars they want for it - they're all only barely steps up from the 8th gen.

>>1296980
Because to get a large enough hard drive, it'd probably double the cost of the console.

Solid state memory ain't cheap.

>>1296534
I agree the Xbox kind of lacked on exclusives, but almost every multiplat game looked a LOT better on the Xbox, less or no jaggies, much better textures, usually they also had higher framerates, faster loading times and less lag to boot - not to mention exclusive adittional content (like extra levels, etc) that I remember a lot of Xbox ports having.

Case in point: Burnout 3 Takedown 1 - it's hard to get used to the PS2 version after you've played the Xbox version.

It's true that some games would look better on the PC, especially later in the console's life as PC hardware kept advancing, but 6th gen had lots of console-exclusive multiplatformers. Xbox was definitely the best choice for multiplats, with lots of "definitive" versions.

>>1297212
>Burnout 3 Takedown

I actually heard they weren't very different. Maybe just a little less slowdown Likewise with Black. And there was that thing a long time ago that the PS2 version had more sparks when you rammed your car against walls

If I'm wrong please tell me cause I'm curious.

>>1297217
I had both versions of Burnout 3 (Xbox and PS2) at the time. It was actually a very impressive game on the PS2, but the Xbox version had no jaggies and much better textures. Load times were also about half of the PS2 version. It's probably just me, but after playing the Xbox port I really found the PS2 version painful to play, more so than most multiplats.

As for Black, I guess it might be the most technically impressive game on the PS2. There's really very little difference to the Xbox port, mostly the Xbox version has no jaggies (as usual) and can keep up better framerates when the action gets intense while I remember the PS2 version lagging sometimes.

The spark thing is true, flame effects also look a tiny bit better on the PS2, but at least for me it's only noticeable if you compare them side by side. While the better AA and framerates of the Xbox version are noticeable even if you play them on different days. :)

>>1296165
>they had to use visual tricks to make it look like it was being rendered in 3D, but those have aged horribly.
i'm not saying you're lying but i just see this said all the time and nobody posts examples, i want to see

>>1296845
Remember Saturn was released long enough before Playstation to have established a library, and they dropped their price to Playstation levels when it was released. Sega just did their classic Sega maneuver of releasing their console way early and relying on the power and the games to speak for themselves. That's how they seriously rivaled Nintendo but Sony did their homework and wasn't going to make the same mistake Nintendo was in the process of making yet again, plus as you said consumers were hesitant after the 32x, which never should have existed.

Also backwards compatibility, a hallmark of Sega consoles all the way back to Mark 1 got dropped. If Sega had only put the 32x budget into providing for backward compatibility on Saturn with both Genesis and Sega CD oh what a world it would have been.

Also Die Hard Trilogy isn't an arcade port.

>>1296796
GC had FIFA

>>1297227
Thanks, good to know. But I could have sworn that I heard very few Xbox games even used anti-aliasing. Maybe Criterion just ported their PS2 games to Xbox, turned on AA with a couple of nicer textures here and there and called it a day?

>>1296796
That's the thing, they did put Madden, NCAA football, and NHL. I don't know about FIFA, though, because I avoid EA Sports games like the plague.

>>1297237
>i'm not saying you're lying but i just see this said all the time and nobody posts examples,
Any game with a pre-rendered background. It happens on N64, but at least they have the courtesy to filter it.

>>1297248
>Remember Saturn was released long enough before Playstation to have established a library, and they dropped their price to Playstation levels when it was released.
Even four months isn't long enough to establish a library, especially with games that were technically more complex in arcades than the games that launched PlayStation.

Sony's success was almost entirely dependent their retail presence, on Nintendo's absence until November of 1996, and Sega of Japan's complete incompetence. Sega wouldn't have rivaled 3DO with their shitty launch, much less the PlayStation.

Sony didn't really "do their homework", they just did a quieter, less expensive launch with less technically complex games that were actually able to show off the 3D capabilities of PlayStation, which was something important at the time to American gamers. Sega, on the other hand, didn't make the American market a priority and didn't hold the people in charge responsible for that. Even as someone who grew up with Sega, this was mostly self-inflicted.

>>1297248
>Also Die Hard Trilogy isn't an arcade port.
Correction: Die Hard Arcade

>>1294643
>There are only a handful of memorable games on PSX

meanwhile

>There are only a handful of games on N64

>>1296242
>ps2 games didnt wreck gamecube games graphically

ok no see you're WRONG. ps2 was the weakest, like horribly weakest, console of its gen. it had like zero shader support. look at a video of resident evil 4 on the GC vs the ps2, preeeetty big difference

>>1296980
I was really hoping flash-based cartridges would make a comeback at some point.

If it wasn't a rather costly solution, even if you just use something similar to sd cards and forget about the insane speeds of ssds for a minute, this would bring back all the advantages of the cartridge format.

Games could be patched permanently, save games would be portable again and there would be no need for extended hard drives on the console itself. At least not for games.

Now with everything moving towards cloud services and digital distribution, requiring everything to be bound to an account, I doubt it's going to happen. But at some point, it really made sense

>>1298012
isn't this just the 3DS?

>>1297898
>that game
I've wasted so much time punching people in the face.

>>1298752
what does the system look like? just a typical arcade board? any cool sega logos on it

>>1296813
>Remember that one time a console based its entire lineup on third party software? It didn't turn out so well, did it?

Sony consoles do it all the time, and guess what, it always worked.

The problem is very deep seated. Third parties are deeply rooted into Sony, though many have decided to stick their roots in Microsoft because of the PS3 being uncertain and both consoles having the exact same audience. It's hard to say for a fact that third parties can make or break a Nintendo console, considering that -none- of them have ever supported Nintendo to the same extent as MS or Sony.

Speaking of, Nintendo doesn't care nearly enough to try to improve their marketshare. They could make a home console that literally has nothing and a handheld with Pokemon and Animal Crossing built into it, those will still generate a profit for Nintendo, even if their marketshare is consistently shrinking. Nintendo doesn't see marketshare as a problem anymore, instead focusing entirely on profits. Sony and MS on the other hand cannot afford to be in the "minority" like Nintendo, so they must do everything within their power to keep their consoles relevant, and in turn get third party support to help boost their sales.

The XBox barely outsold the GameCube, but it cost MS billions, all because of how little market it had. The PS3 was rocking Sony's world now that so many third parties dropped exclusivity and started partnering up with MS, seeing as the 360 had the biggest piece of the pie. Marketshare is the only thing MS and Sony can fall back on, and the only thing they have to depend on. Nintendo could pull some of their dick moves and buy out shelving space, pay off companies for exclusives, and heavily advertise their console to cripple their opponent's hardware sales, but they won't.

>>1298938
>Sony consoles do it all the time

Given that Sony has had a number of first and second-party developers since the 90s, this just isn't true.

>>1298942
If anything, you mean second party. I don't think Sony themselves have any game development teams, or if they do, they're very few and far between. For example, GoW is from Sony Santa Monica, and Ape Escape is from Sony Japan. I'm not aware of much else, but I do know of all the smaller studios like NaughtyDog, which are essentially Sony's Rareware or Monolith Soft.

>>1297573
>Sega wouldn't have rivaled 3DO with their shitty launch
>Sony did a quieter, less expensive launch
I'm pretty sure I was talking to Professor Full Sail before and I'm pretty sure you're not that nerd. 3DO's launch was a disorganized clusterfuck. Saturn's launch was a normal mainstream console launch like they were successful with six years earlier. Playstation's launch... well...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8meCIT1ErPQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2y7rYETEzM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RkMNtIBrVA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBq2a8ZSnO4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVd5FuhlfJA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiQo-_bMHcc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pq7uNlu2KRQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXiRXxnDPbU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uVQScWDl1U

>>1298938
The real reason third parties like MS and Sony consoles is because they have them by the balls. Sony and Microsoft will serve third parties on hand and foot to cater to their every whim. Third parties know that these consoles are at their mercy and they love it.

As you say, Nintendo don't give a fuck, so third parties don't put much effort into support.

>>1296168
>It was only after their tween/teenage fanbase discovered the internet that Square RPGs really started to take off

So basically you're saying you never read a single gaming magazine in 1997 or 98? Final Fantasy VII was huge. Final Fantasy VII and Metal Gear Solid were the Playstation's killer apps; those were the two games that put cinematics front and center, and really showcased the CD medium.

>>1299025
Did MGS have any FMV cutscenes, aside from the ending cinematic? I remember it being all in-engine, but with full voice acting (and a TON of it).

>>1299029
No, most of it was in-game. But it's still a highly cinematic game, almost offensively cinematic. I dare say MGS is the patient zero of modern games, introduced both movies to video games and the entire concept of military themed "tacticool" stuff.

>>1296534
>GT4 had special modes in 720p and 1080i
just popped in to say no. GT4 supports 480i, 480p, and 1080i. I played it just yesterday.

Sony won because at the time of release, CDs were "new". The general consumer hadn't known CDs for anything but music and something to do with that thingy called a computer. So it must be fancy, right? Let's buy that one.

>>1299025
>So basically you're saying you never read a single gaming magazine in 1997 or 98?
I was never big on gaming magazines concerning PlayStation because I owned a Sega Saturn and also played games on the family Mac growing up.

There also wasn't any one "killer app" for PlayStation since gaming tastes vary and JRPGs haven't been much of a big deal outside of Japan. If there was any one game that showed off as much graphical and gaming power as the PlayStation was capable of, though, I'd say it was the original Gran Turismo, which, like FFVII, was on two discs, but unlike FFVII, managed to move over 10 million copies.

>those were the two games that put cinematics front and center, and really showcased the CD medium.
As did Night Trap, Sewer Shark, and Dragon's Lair, years before in arcades and on Sega CD, along with a lot of other CD-based games before.

Let's pull back a little on the delusion here, Square wasn't as innovative or particularly special as you might think. I would've been torn apart years ago for questioning their creative perfection in the eyes of rabid fanboys exactly like you, but vindication came in the form of pic related.

>>1296534
>All 3 consoles supported 480p progressive scan on a title-by-title basis. GT4 had special modes in 720p and 1080i with the supported video cables, albeit at half the framerate.
Dreamcast and Xbox supported 480p mode, from boot, on nearly every title (system/hardware option). Gamecube and PS2 supported 480p mode per-game if the game had a way to enable it (no central SDTV/EDTV switch).

>>1298938
>Sony consoles do it all the time, and guess what, it always worked.
So why are their best selling games on PSX Gran Turismo and Ape Escape? Sony consoles don't base their entire lineup on third party software. You know it and everyone here knows that.

I was referring to 3DO, which is something you probably weren't even there for. They gambled their entire lineup on third party games, which was what ultimately would've done them in even if their prices were $299.

>>1299093
MechAssault, OutRun 2, and Halo: Combat Evolved are the only Xbox games I have of about six or seven that support 480p progressive scan and advertise it on the box. Several others, including Sega Sports games planned for Dreamcast like ESPN College Football 2K, don't support it.

>>1299060
Sorry, my mistake, I just loaded it up and it doesn't support a 720p mode.

Hey did you guys ever get the expansion pack for games like Perfect Dark and Conker's Bad Fur Day?

That was a fun 25th-26th before Moot allowed W.t. snacks to usurp wCw and nWo Revengeance Macho Man Truck-drivin' gift intro.

What tales of snacks on /ck/ when W.t. ordered his sceak rare...

December 26, 2014.
Follow the bootles to Hackensack, NYC, and Kansas-City, MO.

>bottles of what
>Moot to the right
>Milhouse
>Need some snacks for the new year...
>You have just read this for a second, or perhaps third, time, in Gilbert Gottfried's 1st person narrative.

It is now the 27th. You know what that means. only 364 more shopping days to find recycled three-liter bottles of shasta according to some.

Gauntlet 64 was pretty good too...

>>1299106
>MechAssault, OutRun 2, and Halo: Combat Evolved are the only Xbox games I have of about six or seven that support 480p progressive scan and advertise it on the box.
I've got an Xbox on my 1080i Trinitron XBR and every single game supports 480p. Make sure you are using component cables (and that they're detected as such) and that 480p is enabled on the dashboard.

>>1299106
>six or seven
Correction: Six or seven that I own.

As long as I have Xbox on the mind, I'm thinking of getting rid of it and replacing it with an Atari 7800. I wonder how much I could get for it.

>>1299125
>Make sure you are using component cables (and that they're detected as such) and that 480p is enabled on the dashboard.
I don't have the component cables, but I know how to read a DVD case.

>every single game supports 480p.
Then I'd take a look at NCAA Football 2K3, because it doesn't support it, at least from what I can see on the case.

I like to think that the N64 would've won if it had used the GameCube discs, and the GC used DVDs, and so on.

I'm probably horribly wrong in that though, so

>>1299182
Yeah mini-cds would have been a pretty good option for Nintendo. There's less seek time which means faster loading, and they're harder to copy.

Plus they've got 210MB of data which is plenty. That's 3x the largest N64 cartridge.

But on the other hand, the console could have just got a lot of compressed PSX games, without the other advantages of cartridges to make up for it.

>>1297474
Well, I don't know the technical specifics, if it was AA, higher internal resolution or some other trick, but I remember back in the day how having no jags in almost every game was one of the most discussed graphical advantages of the Xbox over PS2.

>Maybe Criterion just ported their PS2 games to Xbox, turned on AA with a couple of nicer textures here and there and called it a day?

But that's what most devs did. However, there were other advantages that probably required little to no effort on part of the devs, like better texture filtering, higher draw distances, higher framerates (lots of multiplats that ran 30 fps on PS2 would be 60 fps on Xbox), shorter loading times, etc. that overall made the Xbox versions a much better experience.

Not to mention the controller of course, though that is more a matter of personal taste.

>>1299129
>I don't have the component cables
So you've never actually tried?

Every game on the Xbox supports 480p. All of them. 100%. They all render at a minimum of 640x480 and the console can always output this at 480p.

>>1296813
>>1296817
>>1299106
I think 3DO's main problem with its library wasn't relying on third party games per se, but what kind of games they were - lots of fmv based games, lots of shoddy PC ports and shitty bizarre games made by obscure american and japanese developers.

If the 3DO got more third party games on the level of Road Rash, Need for Speed, SSF2T, Samurai Shodown, Myst, Gex and Killing Time, AND was at least $200 or $300 cheaper from the start, things could've been different.

>>1296806
>>1296910
>>1296920
IMO one big reason to stick to cartridges back in the 90s, is that when working with optical media you need RAM, and lots of it. Not so much with ROM cartdriges because you can just stream data in real time.

But RAM used to be ridiculously expensive back then, especially in the early 90s, so they had to skimp on the hardware. I believe that's the main reason why in the 16-bit era CD-ROMs were more a gimmick than anything else - for instance, I think the lack of RAM (only 6 Mbits / 768 KB) was THE bottleneck of the Sega CD.

Even the PS1 and Saturn could have greatly benefitted from more built-in RAM, like 4 or 6 MB instead of 2 MB. Only by the 6th gen this ceased being a problem.

>>1299112
the fuck are you talking about

>>1299112
maybe it's because i've been drinking tonight but i have no idea what the fuck you're going on about

>>1298995
The problem with that is that makes Nintendo into a last ditch effort for third parties. Konami isn't going to give Nintendo the freshest MGS game that's going to be out on all platforms, they'd rather wait a few years and crap out a cheaply made port of an already old game. Third parties will never give Nintendo consoles honest, unbiased efforts to see if there is a market or not, they just use crappy spinoffs and ports as a gauge of interest, and when they fail, they blame it on Nintendo. Likewise, MS and Sony will not go anywhere in the future, it will always be Nintendo vs "Them". The quirky Nintendo console with no major third party support vs the other two, nearly identical consoles with all the major third party games. Unless Nintendo decides to step up and break the mold by being aggressive, this will go on until the end of time.

>>1300703
nailed it.

Why not just compare the bare Genesis to the Sega CD? It's the same thing.

>>1301391
Not really. The Sega CD has its own additional graphic processor that does the things the SNES was able to do that Genesis hadn't been able to, namely opacity and scaling/rotation.

I don't think it would've helped much. Even if the N64 was the most convoluted machine on a hardware standpoint, it was designed the way it was for a reason. It had MASSIVE weaknesses, so they had to amplify the strengths as much as they could.

>>1299443
RAM size actually wasn't a problem for the N64. Hell, Conker Bad Fur Day's developers didn't even feel the need to use the RAM pack.

The real bottleneck for the N64 was GPU fill-rate, of which it had a lot more than the PSX or the Saturn. Not sure to what extent cartridges lessened the need for large amounts of RAM.

RAM is far more important for 2D games than primitive 3D games.

>>1302513
Most inaccurate picture of all time. N64 can do high resolution textures by blending low resolution textures together. Theoretically the N64 hardware could do higher resolution textures than the PSX, because the PSX cannot render textures larger than 256x256 and cannot properly blend textures together, while the N64 can (making up for the 64x64 individual texture limitation).

Texture blending just takes a lot of effort for both artists and programmers, so most didn't take advantage of it.

>>1302535
The N64 was a nightmare to work with in general. It'd be much more likely to max out the PS1 given how much easier it was to dev games for than the N64. The N64 -might- have a higher graphical ceiling than the PS1, but no one really bothered to prove anything. Unlike PS1 development, they were lucky if their games worked in the first place.

>>1302542
I'd argue that the N64 was very close to maxed with Conker's Bad Fur Day, which does look miles ahead of any full 3D PSX game, including Crash and Spyro.

It's just shame more developers were not able to approach the performance peak that Rare did. There are some parallels with PS2 development actually, which required developers to program competent microcodes for the vector units. Few were able to pull it off. I think Jak 2 by Naughty Dog was a landmark by showing off how many polygons the system could pull off if done properly.

>>1302549
Now that you mention it, Nintendo consoles will never have ambitious third party programmers who want to see what the console can really do. Most programmers are first or second party, and those usually succeed less on technical ability and more on art direction. Shin'en is closest to something like that, since their upcoming racing title for the Wii U will supposedly blow out PS4 and XBox One racers out of the water, but that still won't convince people. The whole "Nintendo makes weak consoles" mindset will never leave, even if it was only true for the last two generations.

>>1302574
Well GameCube did have Factor 5. If I recall Rebel Strike has the polygon record for that generation.

>>1299089
You're so wrong that it is painful to read your ignorant posts.

Like the other dude said, any magazine was blowing up FF7. I remember getting a poster with EGM and having several preview articles, seeing commercials, seeing ads in the stores as well. For RPGs, FF7 was a killer. N64 didn't have a decent RPG, and it's one of the major reasons their base was fractured.

>>1302603
As someone said, blaming hardware for being too weak is an excuse for ineptitude and laziness. They just fear that their games won't sell and offset the development costs, explaining why all third party games are the same, safe PS/MS multiplats.

>>1302673
Actually the biggest blow would be the combination of FF7 being a killer game and the N64 not having said game. Let's hypothetically say the N64 got tons of RPGs thanks to this new RPG boom, there's no way people would buy an N64 for hundreds of third rate RPGs. FF7 was -the- game that decided the outcome of 5th gen. The Saturn could've had FF7, and that would've destroyed.

>>1293798
>The collect-a-thon as we know it may never have existed.
Wow thank you Nintendo 64. You really added a lot of great contributions to gaming as a whole. [/not]

>>1302673
Even before FF7 pictures and info were released, Squaresoft was a big fucking deal back then. People were talking so much about the FF6 N64 tech demo and then when people found out they were jumping ship, that was a huge blow.

Square and Capcom jumping ship were what made me turn to Playstation.

>>1296409
>Every playstation 2 game had crazy jaggies

PCSX2.

>>1293608
>mfw Zelda OoT wouldn't have been so immersive when you trek across Hyrule Field and enter the castle only to see "Now Loading..."

>>1303247
Woulda had better quality music, though.

>>1303208
N64 ended up with Paper Mario (poor SMRPG...) and Quest 64.

PSX didn't even need any hyped up FF to be considered the RPG console.

>>1303208
>>1302673
>>1303241
You only need to say it once. Again, citing magazines I didn't care to read doesn't magically make you right.

Instead of actually staying down to earth, we have developer deification and a contest on >>>/vr/ to determine who was the cool guy who was there when that thing happened to describe in full detail how much bigger Square's games were than Nintendo's or id's or even Sony's at the time.

Yes, I'm saying Sony's because if FFVII really was as big of a thing as you said it was and third parties really were more important than anything else in a console, then why is the best-selling game on PSX a first party game followed by another first party game? You're citing magazines, which were never paid off, but I'm citing numbers.

Look differently? Probably not. The N64 would still have the crappy RAM that it had. But the games would probably sound differently, and they could also play FMV cutsceens

>>1299434

Soul Calibur 2, Amped 2, GTA 3, GTA Vice City and a few more can output at 720P if you had the tech at the time. Most PS2 games ran at 288P in comparison including GTA

The GC probably would have handled GTA fine at 480P as well.

>>1303436
Um, gee, I dunno, maybe mentioning magazines is happening because it shows that it was a popular thing at the time. Square was already known for their SNES RPGs, and the move to 3D for their biggest title ever was a huge buzz.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PlayStation_video_games

It's #2, genius. Troll harder.

>>1303483
PS2 games typically run at 480i, with antialiasing (480 line framebuffer) .

>>1301391
>those non-longbox games

>>1296242
>>implying xbox and ps2 games didnt wreck gamecube games graphically

It took the PS2 two-three years just to equal the fucking Dreamcast graphically. First gen PS2 titles were literally PS1 quality with filtered textures and no z-clipping.

GCN and Xbox were about equal from what I recall. Xbox had more raw power to exploit, GCN had more effects there from the getgo. But, I really didn't pay attention to what those two consoles managed to do, so I dunno really.

>>1303492
Number 2, lagging by over a million copies to a driving game. The next one, within 400,000 copies, is another entry in a first party driving game series.

Again, you're the one spamming magazines, bombastic strings of adjectives, and insults, in true fanboy fashion.

There was probably a lot of buzz for PlayStation owners for roughly a year. Then something else came along and ended up getting even better reviews than any Final Fantasy game had on PSX.

>>1303758
Quick correction: any Final Fantasy game.

>>1303510
Wasn't PS2 the weakest graphically, something made even more apparent because they intentionally made it incredibly confusing to program for?

>>1303758
You are entirely incomprehensible. You admit to being wrong by saying you're still right. You say it's not that popular, by being popular before the next popular thing.

What else came along to get better reviews?

If it's fanboyism to call you a moron for being moronic, then I guess you would also be correct on that note as well. (you're on a roll!)

>>1303510
> First gen PS2 titles were literally PS1 quality with filtered textures and no z-clipping.

Seriously. Load up Tekken Tag Tournament and look at Tekken 3; barely any difference. Then marvel how far they came by loading up Tekken 5.

>>1303776
Tekken wasn't made for the Playstation.

>>1303775
>You admit to being wrong by saying you're still right.
Where else was I wrong other than on that one sales figure for a console I never owned? Gee, what a logical checkmate.

I was the one objectively showing how more people cared about the first party game than the third party, but then you came in and proved absolutely nothing by showing a game that was number two and wrote even more glowing descriptions of the earth-shattering launch of a PlayStation game.

>What else came along to get better reviews?
Jesus Christ, even casuals know what game this is.

>>1303784
It was definitely an arcade thing, but people mainly played the games on their PlayStation ports, sort of like Killer Instinct or Daytona USA. This all started when it drew comparisons with the rushed Saturn port of Virtua Fighter in 1995.

>>1303784
Actually they kind of were. They all used Playstation hardware in an arcade cabinet. Tekken 3 used a later version that ran faster and had more ram, and from what I recall Tekken Tag and Soul Calibur also both used that.

From what I recall, TTT had, uh, better backgrounds and filtered textures compared to T3. And of course it had the tag team which wouldn't have been possible on the PS1. I don't even know what resolution it was running in, doubt it was even 480i.

And that was a high-name AAA port. Most other launch games ran at 240p...

>>1296598
Except pre-FF7 wasn't.

It was a niche genre, before the epic FF7 commercials got people interested in the game (which made the game look more like an action game than an rpg).

Now, it definitely opened the flood gates, but WRPG's were pure PC territory, and JRPG's were a niche.

Here is just one of the awesome commercial that sold that game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9pF9BJQBLo

>>1303919
JRPG's are still a niche in console gaming outside of Japan.

>>1299112
B-b-Baconrider?

>>1303436
>I don't care how much evidence there is that I'm wrong, therefore I'm right.

>>1303464
The n64's RAM was not crappy, just not well balanced. It had incredible speed and bandwidth for the era, but some of the worst latency ever.

Why does nobody complain about the PS2's RAM which was essentially the same kind of stuff as the N64 RAM?

>>1304368
It didn't matter because the PS2 still got 3,000 games made for it, where the N64 barely has 300. Hell, the PS3 was a damn nightmare, yet that still edged out in the end. Sure many of Sony's exclusives went multiplat, but they still supported Sony, damn it. Not like Nintendo's third parties that either jumped ship (Konami, Square) or died (Taito, Sunsoft).

>>1303803
I like your style of backpedaling where you act like you're still moving forward.

>acting like any single PSX game should be instantly recognizable when all you said was it came out after 1997
unbecoming, dude

>>1304382
>>acting like any single PSX game should be instantly recognizable when all you said was it came out after 1997
Who said it was on PSX?

>>1303958
So is every genre. So that was a great point, man.

>>1304385
So you're just being this incredibly retarded and ambiguous on purpose then.

>>1304387
Yes, First person shooters are just as much of a niche in the US as JRPGs are.

>Squarefags in charge of not being complete retards

>>1304393
Relatively.

See what I did there? You know you just lost. Dumbass acting like a whole category of games is just a niche when it's also played by casuals and hardcores alike.

>>1304392
I'm going to have to conclude that you're just trolling because no one can be this stupid and still be able to figure out an imageboard's layout.

>>1304395
>Relatively.
No, I'm pretty sure JRPGs are a niche in the US and Canada while FPS and sports games are being played to death by the mainstream of gaming.

>>1304396
Ah, so I am right. You're just a fanboy and in your head that game is way above every other, so of course that means everyone in the world show know what you are talking about when you're not even talking about it.

>>1304397
A niche with the highest selling franchise for the Playstation? Perhaps the Playstation was niche itself.

>>1304398
I don't think it's the best game nor do I think Nintendo makes the best games, but it has better reviews than any Square game released so far and it's sandwiched inbetween two first party blockbusters for best selling game on PSX. This was your example to back your argument that third party games are important, and a pretty weak one at that.

>>1304402
>A niche with the highest selling franchise for the Playstation?
Driving games have always been a niche. What's your point?

>>1304397
Maybe now, but there weren't than many FPS games back in the day.
Doom, Quake, Unreal Tournament, 007 and Perfect Dark. What else was there? It's ridiculous to think these five games dominated the market back in the day.

>>1304405
Are driving games not sports games? We were just told they were mainstream.

>>1304378
N64's lack of games is down to the incredibly high royalty fees because of cartridges, which were in the department of three or four times higher than the PSX or Saturn, not the system's hardware.

>Hell, the PS3 was a damn nightmare, yet that still edged out in the end.
The PS3 was nothing but a failure. Sony losing billions to turn the ship around only to salvage some form of a reputation for themselves does not change its situation. And to boot, despite the fact that the system was one year newer than the 360, and was more expensive to boot, multiplatform games STILL look worse than on 360.

>Not like Nintendo's third parties that either jumped ship (Konami, Square) or died (Taito, Sunsoft).
Pic related is responsible for the largest number of game studio closes last generation ever.

>>1304405
Every genre is a niche.

The pedantry is out of control here.

>>1304416
Game studio closings? I thought it just explained all the crappy Wii games?

>>1304410
They didn't. There wasn't any one genre that completely dominated the market. Today, though, and for the history of computer and video games in the US and Canada, JRPGs have been a niche. There's a few Final Fantasies which sold well from 1998 through 2003, and the Kingdom Hearts games and... that's really about it.

>>1304418
>Every genre is a niche.
All right, since you're going to go into semantics since you have no real argument, JRPGs have an incredibly small niche relative to other genres.

>>1304403
I guess just like those sales stats, you also didn't bother to check these facts you're trying to pull over on us.

>>1304424
>Game studio closings? I thought it just explained all the crappy Wii games?
Nobody took the Wii seriously. Everybody flooded to the HD platforms with their expensive game projects. Market wasn't big enough on those platforms for all games to be successful (in the early stages of the generation, the Wii had a larger marketshare than 360 and PS3 combined). Many games had to fail, and when they failed they failed hard, and the studios were devastated and died.

>>1304425
SNES was known for being the RPG console.

PSX was known for being the RPG console.

You're a giant fucking retard if you are seriously not trolling by saying RPGs have always gotten a small audience.

>>1304426
Which facts? Use specific examples instead of sitting there hurling insults like a little faggot.

>>1304434
You put forth assumptions. Nothing you have said has been credible in the least, especially since you have proven yourself to be ignorant while continuing to argue as if you had any information.

>>1304432
SNES was the Nintendo console. Zelda and Mario drove sales a lot more than Cloud and What'sherface from Chrono Trigger. Perhaps that's why all the Square games are billed as rare to validate their $80 price tags on Ebay.

PSX was the console for RPGs that American publishers bothered to import. In the meantime, most people remember Crash Bandicoot and Gran Turismo.

You probably wouldn't know it from here or >>>/vg/, but JRPGs aren't a big thing like you want everyone to think it is in America or Europe.

>>1304437
>You put forth assumptions.
Look it up. >>1304396 has better reviews than any Final Fantasy game.

My ignorance is what people refer to as "disagreement", which is a statement like "I don't think Square is the end-all, be-all of third party developers and FFVII, while sporting the revered spot of second place in PSX game sales, wasn't the earth-shattering event >>>/vr/ wants to remember it as."

>>1304427
Huh, never thought about that aspect of it. I mean, obviously no one took the Wii seriously, but considering how it convinced so many high-budget games to be made, yeah, I can see your point. Interesting.

>>1304450
This begs the question, what if Wii was designed with the same angle that Gamecube was sold as? If it had competitive hardware and pricing, would it have sold as well and would it have ended up with the same library as PlayStation 3 and Xbox?

>>1304416
You can change that to "Third parties vs Nintendo Cycle". Only difference is that there is no arrow going back to make another game, as they love Sony too much to consistently release games on Nintendo.

>>1304427
And they'll still keep doing that, and for as long as the larger third parties like Konami or Rockstar keep it up, it will stay that way. Capcom is only worth 100 or so million, despite being one of the biggest third parties in the market at one point. The Nintendo curse is real, very, very real. First Sunsoft, now Capcom.

>>1304450
The problem was that these early games were budgeted with the idea that the 360 and PS3 would have the same sort of growth as the PS2, which didn't happen partly because the Wii stole all the thunder. Even long term Nintendo supporting companies Factor 5 and Silicon Knights jumped shipped to HD with Lair and Too Human respectively.

Had they brought those games over to Wii with a medium level budget, they would have likely survived, as the Wii audience back then was craving for games (even the super niche No More Heroes sold a lot of copies!). Plus they probably would have been better games too, since most of the studios effort was spent struggling with HD development.

>>1304452
>Game X is more popular than game Y so game Y wasn't popular at all

It is ignorance if you don't think Final Fantasy was a big deal. Despite never playing one, I most certainly heard about them growing up. RPGs were a big deal for PSX. Take away Crash, Spyro, and Metal Gear and what do you have? JRPGs, some fighters, and some car games.

>>1304445
The "rare" games are typically the ones very highly rated. Guess what people are less likely to do when they think a game they own is great.

They also cost more at launch because they were quality.

>most people remember
They remember all the popular shit, doofus. You're also horrible confusing accessibility into the mix.

Meanwhile, Crash still didn't even sell as well as the FF franchise did. Really, how are you still making arguments when you have no workable facts?

>>1304445
>Perhaps that's why all the Square games are billed as rare to validate their $80 price tags on Ebay.

Contra for the NES must be one of the most uncommon games ever, as there's literally thousands of listings of 20+ just for the cartridge.

>>1304464
>game Y wasn't popular at all
Did I ever really say FFVII wasn't popular at all?

>It is ignorance if you don't think Final Fantasy was a big deal.
It may have been to Square's audience. The epic plot twist was probably huge for anyone unaware of the existence of Phantasy Star II.

>RPGs were a big deal for PSX. Take away Crash, Spyro, and Metal Gear and what do you have? JRPGs, some fighters, and some car games.
FPSs were a big deal for N64. Take away Mario, Zelda, Perfect Dark, and what do you have? Goldeneye 007, Quake 64, and South Park.

>>1304470
>The "rare" games are typically the ones very highly rated.
No, the rare games tend to be actually quite rare. Chrono Trigger moved 290,000 units. They're even rarer than Tengen copies of Tetris. Snatcher only sold a couple of thousand copies on Sega CD. They're all actually rare and command high prices. It helps that they're also wonderful classics.

>>1304475
>Contra for the NES must be one of the most uncommon games ever, as there's literally thousands of listings of 20+ just for the cartridge.
Snatcher must therefore be really common since there's only about four or five listings. Most of them only have the disc. Wow, people must not have taken care of this game, so it was probably really terrible.

>>1304470
>Meanwhile, Crash still didn't even sell as well as the FF franchise did.
Mario 64 didn't sell as well as an entire games franchise. How pathetic for a pack-in game.

Yes, let's compare games to franchises by sales. That's not in any way misleading and definitely adds to your argument.

>>1304452
It's funny that the entire premise of your argument is to try to take down some Square fanboys that aren't even being fanboyish.

You seem to be fighting whatever original claim there was by saying it is WAY ENTIRELY WRONG 4EAL, while the other side's response being: nah, it was pretty close to being that way.

>>1304481
>It's funny that the entire premise of your argument is to try to take down some Square fanboys that aren't even being fanboyish.
I dunno, calling someone ignorant for not remembering FFVII as a big event seems pretty fanboyish to me, as does citing sales until you remember how irrelevant sales are once someone mentions your game didn't sell as well as another.

>You seem to be fighting whatever original claim there was by saying it is WAY ENTIRELY WRONG 4EAL, while the other side's response being: nah, it was pretty close to being that way.
I appreciate the effort put into the strawman, but I'm sure there's been an update on your Tumblr dashboard you might want to have a quick look at.

>>1304478
No, but you're saying it didn't have a large audience in the US and Canada. Sorry for exaggerating.

>Take away Perfect Dark and your left with FPS games
you dun goofed
Aside from those though, what other FPS games were there?
N64 had platformers if you take gun games as a whole out of the equation, and Mario and Zelda.

>>1304484
>ignorant
Is not an insult. There is nothing fanboyish in calling someone out on not knowing some things.

>>1304478
> >The "rare" games are typically the ones very highly rated.
>No, the rare games tend to be actually quite rare. Chrono Trigger moved 290,000 units. They're even rarer than Tengen copies of Tetris. Snatcher only sold a couple of thousand copies on Sega CD. They're all actually rare and command high prices. It helps that they're also wonderful classics.
Why say "No" there? You didn't need to disagree, and you even said "It helps that they're also wonderful classics."

Your way of arguing is dumb.

>FPSs were a big deal for N64.
Are you even being serious? Okay, FPS games were a big deal on the N64 just like how FPS games were a big deal on the Xbox (i.e. consisting only of HALO)

>>1304484
>I dunno, calling someone ignorant for not remembering FFVII as a big event seems pretty fanboyish to me

How so? The game was huge.

>>1304482
lmfao

That's it right there. You just lost the game.

Ignorance has overcome your soul, so just an hero right now, retard.

.........yeah. Mario 64 wasn't even a "pack-in" game. It was $60 at launch, just like Pilotwings 64.

Also, retard, Crash has his own franchise. Wasn't it about 3 on the PSX? Wow, that's about the same as.... yep, Final Fantasy.

>>1304491
>>Take away Perfect Dark and your left with FPS games
>you dun goofed
I got that confused with Killer Instinct, which had a port... sort of, to N64.

>>1304496
Ignorant is definitely an insult. I don't remember much talk of FFVII as someone who grew up with a Sega Genesis, then Saturn and a Power Mac AIO.

That's not as big as hearing about Doom while having a machine that couldn't run it without a 32X, or hearing about Mario 64 while I whittled away at Virtua Racing. With FFVII, I didn't hear about the praise it got from PSX owners until well after Gamecube was launched and Sega wasn't making games consoles anymore.

>>1304508
>Ignorant is definitely an insult.
No, an insult is this.
Fucking retard, ignorant means, and I quote, lacking knowledge or awareness in general; uneducated or unsophisticated.
Do you get offended when someone points at you and says you're human?

>>1304508
>Ignorant is definitely an insult.

Ignorance is not knowing.
Stupidity is knowing and not doing.

Or something to that effect. Ignorance just means you didn't know. And we're all ignorant of something. Everyone. You, me, that fat creep watching you through your windows as you read this. There's something we all don't know.

>>1304514
It's funny how you posted about how the Square fanboy didn't mean to insult and was being polite and calm right as >>1304505 was posted.

>>1304484
>calling someone ignorant for not remembering FFVII as a big event seems pretty fanboyish to me
>ignorant for not remembering
>ignorant
>not remembering

Checkmated on his own self.

>as does citing sales until you remember how irrelevant sales are once someone mentions your game didn't sell as well as another.
The loner contrarian dude quoted sales, which he entirely made up and was corrected on, and thus proven entirely wrong.

Well, now I know how deeply rooted Square fanboyism is in /vr/.

>>1304518
It's almost amusing how you're trying to alter what I said.

>>1304525
Fanboyism now equals knowing facts about cultural trends and maybe taking part in some of it.

I'm not even sure what to call someone that is being vehemently anti-fanboy in such a way, when he has no purpose or side at all. Just a contrarian dick that can't get over how wrong he has been.