/vr/ - Retro Games

Your pick related
I fucking love heretic.

>>1253215
of course its a classic, corvus is a boss.

>>1253245
No he isn't, he's the player character.

I think E2M5 in Blood is one of the best maps ever. Spooky, linear buildup going around the mansion and then getting in where it becomes a big maze with lots of secret passages, enemies and traps.

It still has that annoying "get red key, open red door which is only a small room with the blue key" design at the end which is just lazy filler content but whatever, still great map.

>>1253247
Ba-da-dum Tish!

>>1253268
nice ill have to play that sometime. Anyone play Duke Nukem 64 even though it had some lame censorship it had some pretty sick maps.

If you're talking about oldschool (pre-1998), then aside from obvious choices such as id Tech Engine and Build engine games, Pathways into Darkness, System Shock, Marathon 2: Durandal (the first game is kinda rubbish and I still haven't played the third one), Strife, PowerSlave, CyberMage: Darklight Awakening (the most underrated FPS of all time), Realms of Haunting and Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight (TPS mode and shit blah-blah-blah).

Also, TB video is retarded as always and he apparently doesn't know shit about FPSs.

And Shadow Warrior is pretty damn mediocore and banalshitboring.

i remember trying to use the doom cheats and it would fuck you over. heh good times

though I had trouble completing the level, I must admit that in E3M6: Mt. Erebus in Doom is lots of fun. E3M3 was cool, too.

>>1253205
I prefer Heretic over Hexen anyday - no narrow corridors with faggot Centaurs.

>>1253536

Can System Shock really be called a shooter?

When FPSs started becoming all about emulating real life instead of something that was fun to play the genre went to shit. In no other game genre will you find developers giving less of a shit about level design.

>>1253619
so basically with Half-Life

>>1253623
Possibly but I wouldn't say it was any one game. Advances in graphics and "immersion" came at the expense of real game design.

>>1253626
>Advances in graphics and "immersion" came at the expense of real game design.

How do you figure?

Note: Games getting prettier and level design getting worse is not proof of this. Bad level design can come with older graphics as well.

>>1253629
>How do you figure?
Because it's always seemed to me like that's exactly what's happened. People got so obsessed with things looking realistic in the FPS genre that it became a crutch carrying over to design in things actually BEING realistic and they lost sight of the most important things about a game. The player avatar always has to be some humanoid bound by typical physics these days, the projectiles always seem to have to be instantaneous because bullets are like that in real life, and the worlds always have to conform to some sort of realistic architecture. Never in an FPS anymore will you get some cooky bizarre worlds fundamentally built around a game experience like something in a Mario game for instance. The FPS genre could be so much more if developers would think outside the boundaries of the realistic convention more.

I think modern graphics would make non uber linear levels very difficult to navigate. Too much details would confuse you a lot. On the other hand the classics had more stylized and minimalist graphic style.

I think modern fps just need to try and be fun and not be overly simplified (health regen), something they fail miserably at. I think old style level design is pointless to emulate, even if superior. We can have alternatives to that like the open arenas of ss hd\3 and painkiller. Not as complex but still better than a fucking cramped corridor.

>>1253268
This

And most of the Cryptic Passage maps are good as well.

>half life emulates real life

How fucking retarded are you? Do you even know what a video game is?

>>1253205
I'm partial to Strife and Hexen/Hexen II and Quake appearance-wise. Quake and Doom/Doom ][ gameplay-wise.

>>1253739
No, you fucking idiot kid, learn to fucking read. Half-life is designed with realism and verisimilitude in (level) design and physics, and the immersive absence of cutscenes that take you out of your character in mind. It was also always praised for it.
You come along and post this fucking braindead shit banal post because you think you understand anything (hurr HL gots alien weaponz u guys so dumb). Fuck off.

I think the DOS version of Powerslave aka Exhumed is very underrated. Not to be misunderstood with the console counterparts which are whole different games.

The PC version has some of the bests unrealistic level design so characteriscis of early to mid 90's FPS that you just don't see anymore. It also helps that the levels are often interactive and their shape evolve as you go through them.

Sadly the games fails a bit in the fighting department

>>1253748
>realism
there's that word again

>>1253704
Cryptic Passage is the best you can get out of official Blood releases. The same team who developed it also developed other add ons for other Build engine games, including Caribbean Life for Duke3D, which agian, is the best you can get out of official duke3D and not only in terms of level design.

Sunstorm Interactive were Build engine gods. If I was my age in the 90's, and since I build maps in the Build engine as a hobby, my dream would have been to work for them

>>1253634
>and the worlds always have to conform to some sort of realistic architecture
even if it's an alien or bizarre world, if it has some architectural rules, it doesn't mean you can't still make good levels out of it

>>1253763

Are you even reading his posts

>>1253205
>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q6UQ2QlRH0
I love TB when it comes to FPSs. He really knows his stuff.

Anyways, to answer question, Duke, SW, and Blood had some pretty fantastic levels. Perfect blend of more realistic and gameplay design.

I haven't played any old FPS games at all, what would be the best to start with?

>>1253878
Doom and then Duke Nukem 3D. Don't be afraid to use sourceports and to play with WADS+Mouse but do yourself the favour of playing with the original graphics in 8 bit mode

>>1253758
Is there a way to legally get Powerslave/Exhumed? It doesn't seem to be on gog.

>>1253878
Doom and Duke3D since they're the most beginner friendly. Get Heretic, Shadow Warrior, and Blood once you're more used to it.

I love Duke Nukem 3D maps because they're real locations or at least try to feel and look like real locations. Offices, shops, malls, parks, subways etc.

I haven't played a game that matches the levels of the first Doom yet. I also love the pistolstart mechanic and learning each level separately.
Heretic has parts of that, but ultimately i just don't find it as rewarding.

>>1253884
>>1253882
Thanks

>>1253913
Duke3D is supposedly designed to be do-able from a pistol start as well. However, in episode 3 some levels are hard to do on difficulty skill 3(out of 4) that way. Most of it is possible though.

Duke3D and Blood. I don't know what it was about the Build engine but it's somehow enabled some really entertaining games. I never got into Shadow Warrior, but from what little I have played it seemed to me there was plenty to like about it. Redneck Rampage was easily the crappiest build game but even then it managed more fun elements than a lot of the other releases floating around. I liked a lot of the other ones people have mentioned, but I guess if there's level design that really stood out in 90's FPS for me then probably Duke and Blood.

>>1253205
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOHyD49DaeA

this is the medal of honor video he referred to

It doesn't matter how much ammo gets dumped on you or not, or how many dead ends there are in the maze (don't forget, even a maze has only 1 solution) or how nicely painted the walls of the maze are... The problem is:

Is the minotaur interesting to fight?

Metroid Prime had you flank your enemy, or target its weak point, or use a weapon it's weak against. It was still interesting and fun even though the only weapon with ammo limits was the rocket launcher.

>>1255231

While i agree making interesting enemies is partially part of what makes an FPS good I must ask this: Do you like DN3D? Because I think that the enemies are pretty vanilla and not varied yet the game is still one of the best ever made.

The best example of what you say that I can think of is Serious Sam. Those games have such varied enemies and many of them attack you in ways that while the main strategy is "shoot them until they die" you still have to prioritize and dodge their subsequent attacks in a certain way.

So again, I do think that variance in enemies helps but is it truly all that matters? I don't believe so.

>>1255231

Metroid Prime sucks ass though

I can say nothing about level design, but music in this game was badass.

>>1255796
>Metroid Prime sucks ass though

Disagreed. Only issue I had with the MP series was that I couldn't mouse+keyboard it.

>>1255861
I like your style.

I've always liked Dark Forces level design

That's a solid video. I liked how he destroyed his access to the secret room while ranting about the virtue of secrets. You see both sides at once.