/vr/ - Retro Games

I fucking love Tyrian!

>>1227638
Glad to hear it.

Not really.

>>1227658
That's a shame.
Why not?

>>1227629
No, I hate it. Euroshmups are horrible.

>>1227683
>Euroshmups are horrible.
That's some powerful heresy, man.

I love the shit out of Tyrian. I set it up on my DS so I could play it during lectures

>>1227629

Haven't played it, but I absolutely adore how the music in this game sounds like it was ripped straight from a Toaplan game.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3EzVO7CJUc

>>1227683
It's American.

my nigga OP, tyrian's one of my favorite games of all time

>all dat customization
>dat GOAT alexander brandon soundtrack
>dose bosses, especially at the end of ep4 and 5
>so many secrets
>galaga, scorched earth, and other minigames
>super tyrian just in case your ass wasn't sore enough from the 3 hidden difficulty levels
>ballin two-player mode

>>1227685

That's a pretty common opinion actually. Shmups rarely ever work well with a lifebar or shop upgrades.

>>1228209
Yeah, because one-hit deaths because you didn't see that one pixel are so much better, right?

>>1228223

Git gud.

>>1228231
So can you actually give reasons as to why lifebars or shop upgrades are bad in a shmup?

>>1228237

Because they give less incentive to git gud.

>>1228247
How so? If anything, a shop would provide more incentive to git gud, because if you do better you'll get more points, which means you can buy better shit.

>>1228257
because I can only tolerate games that are exactly the same
anything that deviates from this causes a disruption in my positronic matrix
beep boop

>>1228257
Yeah, but ship upgrades are rarely balanced and typically just make you a god, without any worry of dying because the power-ups are there forever. That's how I see it at least.

>>1228270
So you're saying the game is too easy even in Suicide or Lord of the Game?
What about the arcade modes which don't have the shop?

The soundtrack was great.
http://moi.renard.free.fr/tyrianjukebox/

>>1228290
Alexander Brandon makes my dick rock hard.

>>1228223
Yes, that's right.

If you played any other shmup before Tyrian, you're gonna be disappointed.

Unless you were playing it at the time it came out when everything was new and exciting.

It's not even a bad game though, just been done better by so many games.

>>1228349
I don't know, there's just something about it that's kept me thinking about it all these years.

I would definitely say its the best shmup of its kind for DOS, or perhaps on the PC for its time.

>>1227629
Dude. I motherfucking, doggie licking, churro stuffing love Tyrian. Never played another shmup that had that feeling of progression and Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy atmosphere.

>>1228374
There's Kamui on PC back in 1999.

>>1228398

Kamui is a game that seriously does not get enough love. Hopefully that will change when it gets a Steam release because that game is good enough to pass off as a RayForce sequel, and as we all know RayForce is one of the best vertical shooters of all time.

>>1228398
I just tried Kamui via Wine.
Works great.

>>1228349
>It's not even a bad game though, just been done better by so many games.
Examples? Jets 'n' Guns maybe (I disagree, but I'd accept that opinion), what else?

Everyone loves Tyrian.

>>1228568
>you will never pilot a Foodship 9
>you will fight evil corporations with bananas and hot dogs
Why is life so cruel ;_;

This game sucks. There, I fucking said it. The controls suck, the sound effects are terrible, the weapons are underpowered, and the level design and enemies were clearly thrown together with absolutely no thought put into them. Most bosses are boringly simple with very repetitive attacks. The pacing and difficulty progression is absolutely schizophrenic. Worst of all, you can brute force your way right through many badly designed enemy attacks and formations by simply having a powerful generator to keep your shield recharging fast. And you know what? The music isn't even that good. I've played bunches of 2D shooters with Amiga/synth-style soundtracks CONSIDERABLY better than this.

I'm so glad I finally played this turd so I can know just what the hell you nostalgiafaggots get so worked up over. You know what's better than this game? Jets 'n' Guns. Hell, you know what's better than this game? Fucking Touhou. I shit you not, the bottom of the barrel in modern independent 2D shooters is still better than this crud.

This game was released in 1995. You know what else was released in 1995? Donpachi, Strikers 1945, Viper Phase 1, Cho Ren Sha 68K, and finally motherfucking Raiden and Raiden II got proper home ports with The Raiden Project. All of those, every single one, they kick the SHIT out of Tyrian. And that was a WEAK year for 2D shooters.

I can only conclude one thing: The people who hype this stinker have very limited experience with the rest of the genre. People who played DOS games and nothing else, with little interest in other game platforms of the time. But even that isn't the best explanation, because arcade shooters finally started getting PC ports a few years later. This game is a joke compared to its obvious Compile shooter inspirations.

Oh, and maybe people who value humor or "intellectual" pursuits (in this case, pointless decision-making) in video games over good action. Well the joke's on you: you're playing the wrong video game genre.

>>1229804

>>1229804
What, did Tyrian date your mom or something?

U.N. Squadron, Carrier Air Wing, and Lords of Thunder all pull off the whole shop system thing a lot better.

>>1229804
I completely agree with all of this.
I think at least some of the hype comes from Tyrian 2000 being open source and given away for free on gog.

>I've played bunches of 2D shooters with Amiga/synth-style soundtracks CONSIDERABLY better than this.
Examples are needed. Share those awesome tunes.
Apidya and Iridion II are all that immediately come to mind for me, unless by "synth-style" you mean stuff like Thunder Force IV or Verytex as well.

>>1229860
>Apidya and Iridion II
Those are exactly two that I was thinking of. Shin'en in general really, but they ain't Retro. Raiden II might be another, if you'll consider that having a similar composition style. I dunno, maybe it's too beat-y.

Maybe I don't have as many examples in mind as I thought when I wrote. Or I just need more time to re-think of them.

>>1229804
What's wrong with the controls?

>>1229938
Your ship has inertia for some insanely retarded reason: when you let go of a direction it continues to coast for a bit. This can impede precision dodging and just makes it feel like the developers didn't even care if you got hit a bit. I guess the shield and armor make that clear too though.

Tyrian is fucking awesome. It's up there with Raiden II as one of my favorite shmups ever.

>>1229945
>when you let go of a direction
Aren't you playing with a mouse?

>>1229945
>for some retarded reason
Why is it retarded? You have shields as opposed to one-hit sure-kill shmups and the effects are practically negligible. I never took a single hit by the time I got to EP2.

>>1229985
Shoot 'em ups are a genre about dodging and shooting. That's it, they're the central mechanics to everything. When your dodging system is bad it affects everything about the game. How is it really that some developers cannot understand that, in a genre where one of the central focuses is dodging objects, being able to precisely control where you place your ship is -essential-? How do bad ideas like this make it past the drawing board?

It's like telling people to run a race and then purposefully breaking their legs. It is an extra layer of difficulty that a player must negotiate through for no real reason. How about I turn that around and ask what about intertia controls could possibly be -good-? All I could ever see is some meta simulation aspect coming from them; however, shoot 'em ups are an action game genre.

>>1229985
What difficulty?

>>1230019
I understand your point, but Tyrian's controls really only take a few minutes to master.

>>1230047
I found myself running into things throughout the game due to not stopping immediately when I let go. Eventually you learn to stop shorter from hazards than normal shooters but it's still quite an annoying "feature" that can feel more like you're fighting against the interface than the enemies.

>>1230057
I suppose it could be quite annoying for some people.
Personally, I had no issues adapting to it.

>>1230019
I never said they were good. You only said they were bad and assume I thought the contrary. And how does inertia effect the fact that it is a shmup, and thus an action game?

It sounds like you only played five minutes and you got something lodged a little too far up your jimmy kerfuffer because it wasn't a bullet hell game. Shocking, I know; a shmup deviating from the bullet hell format.

Tyrian ain't some godlike masterpiece, but it isn't as bad as you're painting it out to be.

>>1230073
So you're saying it's not retarded? To add difficulty in controlling an action game?

>>1230078
I'm gonna start by saying you have a weird idea of difficult controls, because they aren't difficult. Casual gamers pick up on them pretty quickly because tyrian is by all aspects

A casual game

>>1230073
>>1230078
Because I mean inertia isn't like the absence of speed settings or a slow motion key in a non-bullet-hell shooter. It's a straight up addition to difficulty in controlling things. I love the implication that I'm obsessed with bullet hell though. Jackass.

>>1230084
There's needlessly more complex than they otherwise would or should be.

>>1230084
Don't try to hide Tyrian's design flaws behind some arbitrary casual-hardcore wall too. You want a great casual shooter that's similar in design yet plays a hell of a lot better? Try Gun Nac.

>>1230092
What flaw am I hiding? Its a feature of the game and a nice touch in my opinion. I'm just saying that you paint yourself out to be some sort of connoisseur of shoot em ups but you seem to be having trouble with this very small and insignificant detail for whatever reason. You call it an "added layer of difficulty" like it was intended to be that or that it makes the controls any more difficult, but it wasn't and it doesn't. Its just a thing.

There are literally a thousand other details you could focus on. The lackluster final boss, weak asspull ending after all that buildup, episode 4 in general honestly. But instead, you cling to this. It baffles me.

>>1230109
Whoa, I gave plenty of problems with the game besides just the controls, you're the one who picked that out. Don't try to turn this focus around on me.

And yes, it is an added layer of difficulty in the game. A small one, but as a control problem it's one you have to deal with at every single moment you're playing.

What I'm getting at when I say "added difficulty" is the general idea of adding difficulty in forms that make the genre seem more "intellectual"--giving the illusion of meaningful choice or thought required--a typical trait of "Euroshmup" design. Meaningless weapon management, weak weapons, using your points as money for buying things (yeah I really want to get a high score now), interia in the controls, etc. Changes that give the appearance of making the games smarter but actually only serve to obfuscate the central focus of the genre and add difficulties (as in extra decision-making) where they aren't needed. Developers add these sorts of things when they don't understand or don't think that simple, skill-based action is good enough.

>>1230120
Totally off topic, and I'm not the Anon you're talking too; what do you think of Space Megaforce (Super Aleste)?

>>1230126
Sorry, it's one of the few Compile shooters I've never really gotten around to playing for no particular reason. Love Robo Aleste though.

>>1230109
>What flaw am I hiding? Its a feature of the game
I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
It's not a flaw because the shit design choice was intentional? Is that it?

>>1229860
Actually yeah, Thunder Force IV has a very similar feel to Tyrian's music, only better. Just listened to Tyrian's music again to refresh myself and it has a lot of beat to it along with similar instrumentation like TFIV.

Here's another kind of similar FM synth-compositional soundtrack that's better too (note, NOT the SNES soundtrack which is great in its own way but makes extensive use of DSP). Way better personal computer shooter too.

I'm almost certainly going to be branded a weeaboo for this, but in my opinion the choice among 2D shooters on PCs in the West wasn't very good until Windows 95 came around and Japanese arcade-focused developers finally starting porting their games to it. If a game like Phalanx had ever come out on DOS I would have had a very hard time taking the other typical shmups releases on it seriously.

>>1230141
Don't you see anon? Inertia is a feature that you should like because real life has inertia.

>>1230146
Wait a minute, gooby, isn't that the naturalistic fallacy?

>>1230143
Were there no shmups on the Japanese x86 based computers?
Why did nobody port X68000 games to Amiga or Mac?

>>1230156
Just about every Japanese personal computer game before Windows caught on was on the MSX and X86000. I don't think Macs or Amigas had any market penetration there. With such a disparity between regional personal computer markets, the reason games rarely got ported was that developers would have had to both port and localize for another audience at once in order to see any profit from the ports. Too much work and risk for most.

>>1230143
There's nothing weeaboo about it.
If you wanted well made and well balanced action games that weren't first person shooters, Japanese games were for the most part the only option.
The west to me seems like it excelled more in pushing technology, and in slower, more complex, and more detailed games.
To be honest, I'm not sure that things are much different today.

>>1230165
The PC-98 was the dominant computing platform and it ran MS-DOS. IBM compatibles including the FM Towns also had a share of the market.

>>1230171
Oh my, how did I forget that. I guess I'm talking about of my ass then. Anyone know if the PC-88 Touhou games run in MS-DOS?

>>1230156
Not as easy. CPU architecture was the only thing they had in common. Hell, everything used Motorola back then, even your old Mac. But sound and graphics chips were entirely different. x68k received some love from Konami and Capcom but no other notable SHMUP developer cared about it.

>play tyrian all day
>all I can see when I close my eyes and go to sleep is imaginary weapons firing across my vision

>>1230171
FM Towns wasn't compatible with IBM PC - not surprising considering that those were competing PC standards, just like PC-98. Just because it ran DOS from Microsoft doesn't mean it can run the same software. Hell, even MSX had DOS from Microsoft. Bill had his fingers stuck in all the pies.

>>1228349
I disagree. Tyrian did enough things fresh and differently from my NES shmups that I still loved it.

>>1230057
You do know you can use the mouse, right? The mouse controls were perfect.

Any fans of DESTRUCT mode?

For those who didn't know it's a hidden, non-turn based Scorched Earth. Me and my buddy played it quite a bit.

>>1230208
But why would you?

>>1230213
Why would you not? It feels natural.

>>1230193
FM Towns can even run Windows 3 and 95 because they added compatibility to add to the appeal.
They weren't standards like the MSX or DOS/V as much as specific product lines of their manufacturers.

>>1230217
Uh no? A natural-feeling shmup control via a mouse, which turns the ship into literally the same thing as a pointer, only succeeds in trivializing the game. Mouse control is a shitty idea for games with digital movement.

>>1230220
I disagree

Besides, it isn't true 1:1 movement with the mouse. But changing direction is smooth and responsive.

>>1230220
Why does it need to have digital movement? The joysticks aren't digital either.

>>1230223
>The joysticks aren't digital either.
u wot

>>1230232
IBM PCs and Apple II use analog joysticks. Why would you need a calibrate option for digital sticks?

>>1230235
Yeah... And what does that have to do with controlling Tyrian or other shmups now? You don't use those for 2D games (at least I hope not).

>>1230239
Well, controlling digital games, I mean. The problem with mouse control isn't so much about analog anyway, some shmups pull off analog control just fine (Gradius V comes to mind). The problem is that a mouse is simply ill-suited to this kind of control. Mouses are better for moving through menus or manipulating cameras in 3D games, not controlling the movement of an on-screen avatar itself.

>>1230242
>Mouses are better for moving through menus or manipulating cameras in 3D games, not controlling the movement of an on-screen avatar itself.
That is biased as fuck. Mouse movement is PERFECT for shmups. Why wouldn't you want to move a ship around like a mouse cursor? Tyrian is a perfect example of why it works well.

>>1230239
I play Tyrian with a mouse but I've used analog joysticks for other "2D" games, depending on what I felt most comfortable with.

>>1230242
>Mouses are better for moving through menus
It depends. I often prefer the keyboard for menus due to the large amount of possible shortcuts or speed.
Mouse is good for stuff that requires free movement across the screen. The best option is usually to mix different input methods.

>>1230120
>euroshmup design
I'm wondering how many of these so called "euroshmup" games can you name. All non-jap shmups are based on japanese games.

>>1230338
What Japanese game is defender based on?
It's not that similar to Space Invaders.

>>1230220
>A natural-feeling shmup control via a mouse, which turns the ship into literally the same thing as a pointer, only succeeds in trivializing the game.
This is the worst excuse for hating good controls I've ever seen. Being able to control your ship well is a BAD thing? No. Being able to steer well means you can focus better on avoiding projectiles and the game at hand. A mouse is perfect for moving a ship in a limited 2D area the size of your screen. It offers far more precise control than say, a 4 or 8-directional pad. If you want to tie your hands behind your back and call it a challenge, that's your business. But you shouldn't call superior input control a negative.

There's a speed cap that you can't exceed, if you are trying to say you think the game lets you move your ship as fast as a mouse pointer, so that's not an issue. At least where Tyrian is involved.

>>1230358
Are you saying Defender single-handedly invented the genre and all future games are based solely on that? Because that would be quite fallacious.

Even if it did pioneer the field, it was not the model for all shmups to come, that much is certain.

>inertia
>"boo hoo it makes the game too hard"
>mouse controls
>"boo hoo it makes the game too easy"
>"why isn't it exactly like every other game I've played"

>>1230367
No, I said that Defender was a non-jap shmup that isn't really based on a Jap shmup.
Obviously Defender, Asteroids, Space Invaders, Breakout, Pong or ultimtely Spacewar aren't the only defining shmups out there. For instance there wouldn't be vertical scrollers.

>>1230425
Oh, you were attacking his use of absolutes. Gotcha.

>>1230425
>Pong
>shmup
Wat

>>1230364
Perfect if you can move your lock your mouse movement along 4 axes at will. I'm wondering what kind of shmups you play that don't require precise movement to dodge shit.

>>1230440
It was the basis for Breakout which in turn inspired Space Invaders. It's not a shmup itself.

>>1230451
>Breakout inspired Space Invaders
Waaaaat

>>1230259
Because you need precise movement to dodge shit? Seriously I'm cringing just thinking about trying to get halfway through Dogyuun with a mouse.

>>1230472
Are you suggesting it could possibly hurt?

>>1230472
I can't imagine playing any game with a lot of bullets with mouse control. Weaving through tight patterns like even in Darius Gaiden or Cho Ren Sha would be a bitch.

>>1230480
I don't see why mouse would make that more difficult if it was what you were accustomed to. It's all boiling down to what you've been practicing with, not any inherent flaw in how mouse controls work.

>>1230489
No the problem with mouse control is all about the acceleration. Either you move slowly and easily run out of mousepad space for continuous movement or you move too fast and just slam right into things. An analog stick would be far better.

>>1230491
If you run out of mousepad space, you should probably up your sensitivity. If you slam into things, turn it down. Once you have it properly configured, neither is a problem.

Of course any controller is going to suck if you have it misconfigured. That's not mouse exclusive at all.

>>1230526
Digital control requires 0 configuring and always works perfectly.

>>1230528
And mouse offers superior control in a 2 dimensional space and requires configuring a single sliding bar.

>>1230532
Doesn't even require it, usually. Because default settings are almost always manageable.

Are you fags seriously trying to say mouse control in a 2D action game is a good idea? It hardly makes it a game anymore when movement is as simply as dragging your cursor around, now does it? Unbelievable, I never thought I'd see /vr/ be this casual.

>>1230535
Control alone doesn't make the challenge. If you have better control, the developers can throw more at the player and expect them to survive it.

And just because you are using the mouse doesn't mean it's as tedious as dragging and dropping files around your operating system. So feel free to cut the bullshit misrepresentation of an input method as equivalent to other tasks preformed with it.

>using "casual" to shame tight controls
Disgusting.

>>1230542
>If you have better control, the developers can throw more at the player and expect them to survive it.
Never in a million years could you hope to support the kind of precision dodging necessary to handle the densest bullet hell shooters. Get fucking real, mouse control is a novelty at best.

>>1230548
How is a mouse less suited to precision dodging when it is a pixel perfect input that lets you move freely at ANY ANGLE. Not 4 directions, not 8, not 16, ANY your hand has the motor control to achieve? Any failure to dodge in that scenario falls on YOU.

>>1230557
>ANY your hand has the motor control to achieve
That's the problem right there. Can you move your hand in a perfectly straight line 100% of the time? How about draw a perfect circle? With proper game inputs you can.

>>1230560
Who fucking said a straight line is required? Why is adjusting your vertical AND horizontal position easily and simultaneously with every action a bad thing? That is SUPERIOR control, not inferior.

Perfect circle? You can't even do that with a joystick, let alone has a shmup EVER asked that of you.

You are either desperate for ammunition in this argument or are trolling me hard. In which case 10/10.

>>1230567
>Who fucking said a straight line is required?

Have you ever played a bullet hell shooter ever?

>>1230567
>You can't even do that with a joystick
You sure can.

>let alone has a shmup EVER asked that of you.
You clearly haven't played many bullet hell games, you should stop this line of argument before you embarrass yourself any further.

>>1230571
If you can't move the closest approximation of a straight line a game expects of you with a mouse, you have awful motor skills.

Liked it as a kid, can never enjoy it again after playing far superior arcade shmups.

>>1227629
This is one of those games Epic needs to remake the FUCK out of. It was great for its time, but at times it feels cheap, even on easy mode. Getting hit by fast-moving bullet sponges that can kill you in less than a second despite your shield and armor is not fun.

>>1230882
>cheap
Huh? Tyrian is one of the most forgiving shmups there is. It only starts getting cheap on the hidden difficulties (and even then it's mainly those green Deliani ships). That's why you always get all these hardcore holier than thou Cavefags cussing in its way.

I love it so much, it's on my phone.

>>1230935
Holes on Hard has a seriously bullshit part in it early on. Not really sure how you're expected to get past it with the shit you'd have after the first level of the game, but maybe it would be easier if I weren't using Hyper Pulse and Guided Micro Bombs.

>>1231926
If we're talking Tyrian pre-2000 you can probably cheese it with Atom Bombs. Those things were so incredibly broken.

>>1231926
Holes is pretty hard, but why go there if you can hit Soh Jin instead? 60-70k easy points and the best shield in the game are way better than an early Hyper Pulse. Then you get two weapon upgrades on Asteroid 2 after being able to splurge on upgrades with all those points, giving you even more stuff. Hyper Pulse is cool and all, but you can get Mega Pulse and enough generator to support it fast into Episode 2, which will serve you until you get (Zica) Laser.

>>1230178
Yes.

>>1232061
Nope, 2000. The best sidekick I could afford was one 8-way Microbomb, and it couldn't get through that swarm. The USP's invulnerability didn't last long enough, and there's no hope in trying to dodge all those projectiles.

>>1232127
I typically do go to Soh Jin, but I felt like mixing things up a bit. I ended up cheating to get past that bit and was pleasantly surprised by the increased difficulty without the second-best shield in the game and ridiculously overpowered weapons.

>>1230364
It's a silly thing obviously put in as an afterthought. If it adhered to the same inertial limits as the directional pad, sure, but you use it exactly because it doesn't.
>Hope you don't mind a few hundred g's, Trent.

>the year of our lord 20,031
>still buying Microjew products
>mfw

>>1233835
The datacubes are a reaction image goldmine.

>>1233862